Tangle Podcast: "Suspension of the Rules"

Date: September 26, 2025
Host: Isaac Saul
Guests: Ari Weitzman (Managing Editor), Camille Foster (Editor-at-Large)

Episode Overview

This episode of Tangle dives into three major topics shaking up the political and media landscape:

1. The controversy over Jimmy Kimmel's cancellation and return to late-night TV amid political pressure.
2. President Trump's speech and drama at the United Nations, including his UN posture and viral escalator incident.
3. A candid look at the Trump administration’s evolving approach to global affairs—most notably, Ukraine.

Isaac, Ari, and Camille bring sharp, frank perspectives that traverse free speech, political culture, and the intersection of media antics with real-world policy. The crew also closes out with a lighter segment airing their "Vermont-oriented grievances" from a recent team retreat.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jimmy Kimmel’s “Cancellation” and the State of Free Speech

[03:31-16:00]

• Kimmel’s Return: Isaac notes Kimmel’s swift reappearance—less than a week after his suspension—delivering a defiant monologue that didn't include an apology.
  • Isaac Saul: "He came back, he didn't apologize, he called out the obvious thing...the FCC tried to pressure his network into canceling him." (09:44)
• Government Coercion: Camille highlights that the real concern isn't just Kimmel's suspension but the federal government putting explicit pressure on a critical media figure.
  • Foster: "The government was clearly making a focused effort to punish someone who was openly critical of them... Even the fact that they failed here doesn’t make it any less serious." (05:26)
• Private vs. Public Power: Ari and Camille both point out that coercion from the government—even if the company ultimately resists it—constitutes a free speech issue.
  • Ari Weitzman: "It didn’t look good that we had the head of the FCC making an overt threat and then a talk show host having his show pulled." (07:22)
• The Streisand Effect: Isaac discusses how efforts to silence voices like Kimmel’s often backfire, leading to record viewership and viral attention.
  • "It was the most watched night of television that Kimmel's show has ever had... The fastest way to martyr somebody like this or to make somebody's views popular is truly to try and cancel or silence them." (09:44)
• Limits of Cancel Culture: The show debates whether "cancellations" truly work, referencing figures like Louis CK and Charlie Kirk, and distinguish between being canceled for actions (e.g., sexual misconduct) and for speech.
  • Ari: "When it's not against a real crime... we're just canceling people for things they said, then, yeah, I think Streisand effects at play." (13:20)
  • Isaac: "The successful number of real cancellations, I think you can count them on one hand." (09:44)

2. Trump at the UN: Escalators, Sabotage, and the Spectacle of Modern Politics

[24:16-37:52]

• Escalator Incident & "Sabotage": The podcast pokes fun at Trump’s UN trip drama—the escalator stalling and the teleprompter failing, which Trump immediately attributes to sabotage.
  • Isaac: "Trump's mind is immediately like, 'the UN tried to sabotage my visit'... It's like he immediately goes to some globalist lib set us up..." (26:42)
  • Camille: "It is funny." (26:39)
• Speech Content & Delivery: The hosts examine the disconnect between Trump's self-proclaimed role as the ‘President of Peace’ and aggressive rhetoric ("we will blow you out of existence").
• Media Focus and Aesthetic Critique: Camille and Ari urge for substance over spectacle, suggesting policy deserves more analysis than Trump’s eccentricities or viral moments.
  • Camille: "If all you talk about is the escalator, you're probably doing it wrong." (31:18)
• Norms and Meme Culture: The group discusses the erosion of traditional political norms—like decorum—replaced by troll culture, meme-driven messaging, and “the era of the troll."
  • Isaac: "Is it popular? Are we… all three of us seem to have some sort of sensibility and maybe we're just like out of touch... but, you know, I see the Homeland Security account publishing Pokemon graphics and gotta catch em all—caught up with videos of them deporting people and I feel like, ugh, gross." (40:39)
  • Camille: “Sometimes...that decorum can actually be obfuscatory... the meme has become more important... maybe it’s the case that 4chan has kind of won the culture.” (35:36)

3. Trump’s Posture on Ukraine: Policy Evolution or Tactical Showmanship?

[54:51-77:10]

• Surprise Statement: Trump posts on Truth Social conceding that, with EU/NATO help, Ukraine could win back its original territory and that Russia is showing weakness.
  • Isaac: "It genuinely surprised me and I was a little bit like, jaw agape at the screen… he’s conceding he has spent time studying this issue and he now fully understands it... very un-Trump like implication." (56:42)
• Trump’s Negotiating Tactics: Ari frames Trump's Ukraine policy as classic high-ball negotiation—a maximalist starting position meant to extract concessions later.
  • Ari: "I’m going to say, Ukraine should get all their territory back... and then I’ll negotiate. How much of it is a bluff? I don’t know." (58:44)
• Desire for Consistency: The unpredictability of Trump’s foreign policy is noted as a problem for allies trying to plan their response to Russia.
  • Isaac: "It would be helpful if the President had some ideological rigidity... because it's really hard to game plan if you're a European ally or Ukraine." (61:24)
• Camille on Principle: The group is clear-eyed about the justice of Ukrainian self-defense and skepticism toward Russian pretexts.
  • Camille: "A sovereign country that had plenty of defects… was invaded by a neighboring country… it's a good and just thing for there to be a coalition of people who are willing to assert confidently... that's unacceptable." (65:18)
• Calibrated Rhetoric: The panel praises Trump’s framing that Europe and NATO must step up materially.
  • Isaac: "I think the relevance of his return is the reason why the platform's so valuable. But I don't doubt for a minute that Jimmy Kimmel could have built a different audience but a substantial audience outside ABC." (20:11)
  • Ari: "When we zoom back and look at results...NATO's arming more, we're seeing better commitments from the U.S. towards NATO." (70:38)
• Hypothetical NATO Response: The team considers what the U.S. should do if Russia strikes a NATO country—most agree on strong, targeted military, especially air force, response.
  • Isaac: "If the NATO line got crossed in a real intangible way, I think it would be a huge, huge mistake to not respond with force. And I'm pretty pacifist." (71:40)
  • Camille: "Conversations around this are very relevant right now and...the shift of perspective from the President...is potentially very consequential." (74:45)

4. Brief Segment: Autism, Tylenol, and Media Debate

[78:36-83:24]

• Ari reflects on the evolving reaction to recent Tangle coverage of autism, Tylenol, and RFK Jr., noting recent responses were far less hostile and more nuanced than previous blowback—a sign, perhaps, of shifting norms in discussing controversial scientific topics.

5. The Airing of Vermont-Oriented Grievances

[83:41–89:12]

• Team reminisces about their recent Vermont staff retreat, lamenting the return to less idyllic workspaces and sharing friendly grievances—ranging from the lavish Vermont coworking amenities to a "BIPOC discount" story that sparked a deeper reflection from Camille on well-intentioned but condescending gestures.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Kimmel’s Return (Isaac):
  "The fastest way to martyr someone like this or to make someone's views popular is truly to try and cancel or silence them." (09:44)

• On Government Threats (Camille):
  "The government was clearly making a focused effort to punish someone who was openly critical of them." (05:26)

• On the Streisand Effect (Isaac):
  "Most of [those canceled]...it ends up popularizing them and their views or makes them more powerful in some way." (09:44)

• On Escalator Incident (Isaac):
  "Trump’s mind is immediately like, 'the UN tried to sabotage my visit'...it is a conspiracy. He immediately goes to some globalist lib set us up." (26:42)

• On Meme Politics (Camille):
  "Maybe it's the case that 4chan has kind of won the culture and that is where we are now culturally and socially, and things mean something different than they did before." (35:36)

• On Trump’s Ukraine Post (Isaac):
  "It genuinely surprised me… he’s conceding he has...fully understand[ed] it and maybe didn't before. It's a weird, very un-Trump like, implication." (56:42)

• On Policy Substance vs. Aesthetics (Camille):
  "If all you talk about is the escalator, you're probably doing it wrong. If you're foregrounding with that firmly, you're probably doing it wrong." (31:18)

• On Free Speech Threats (Ari):
  "We're critiquing the administration for making a coercive push towards a critic of their administration and punishing that person for speech." (07:22)

• On the Return from Vermont (Isaac):
  "Vermont was so good...today I arrived to my co-working space in Philly, and now it's, like, depressing. And I was like, this place sucks. Where's all the trees? Where's the lake?" (86:29)

Important Timestamps

| Segment | Time | |-----------------------------------------------|--------------| | Jimmy Kimmel “cancellation” discussion | 03:31 - 16:00| | Streisand effect & cancel culture | 09:44 | | Trump’s UN speech & escalator incident | 24:16 - 37:52| | Meme culture & political aesthetics | 35:36 | | Trump’s Truth Social post on Ukraine | 54:51 - 77:10| | Airing of grievances (Vermont, BIPOC, etc.) | 83:41–89:12 |

Final Thoughts

This episode showcases Tangle at its best: dissecting headline-grabbing moments with nuance, contextualizing the significance of media hysteria, and keeping an honest, often witty, tone throughout. The exchange on both Kimmel and Trump reveals how much American civic life is shaped not just by policy outcomes, but the performance, posturing, and culture wars swirling around them. The closing segment brings levity and camaraderie—reminding listeners that, even amid the “suspension of the rules,” humanity and humor remain central.