Tangle Podcast: "Suspension of the Rules"

Episode Date: December 19, 2025
Host(s): Isaac Saul (with Camille Foster, Ari Weitzman, John Lowell)
Special Guest: Charles C.W. Cooke (National Review)

Episode Overview

This episode of "Suspension of the Rules" dives into a week of politically-charged controversy and in-depth analysis. The team first tackles the fallout from Donald Trump's inflammatory tweet following the murder of activist and filmmaker Rob Reiner. Next, they dissect the revealing Vanity Fair profile on Trump Chief of Staff Susie Wiles, focusing on its implications for Trump's White House. The episode features a guest interview: Kmele Foster sits down with conservative thinker Charles C.W. Cooke to talk about the state and future of conservatism. The crew wraps up with their signature "airing of grievances," offering both personal and professional pet peeves—plus some humorous and dubious legal advice.

Key Segments & Discussion Points

1. The Rob Reiner Tweet: Outrage and Impact

[03:47 – 33:56]

• Context: Rob Reiner, prominent Hollywood activist and director, and his wife Michelle were brutally murdered by their son. Donald Trump quickly posts a mocking, political tweet referencing “Trump Derangement Syndrome” and blaming Reiner’s activism for his death.
• Tone: Deep discomfort, alarm, and dismay over Trump's public behavior, even among those used to his provocations.

Main Discussion Threads:

• Camille Foster openly condemns Trump's reaction:
  • “The president kind of mocked a guy who was murdered in his own home… less than 24 hours after he was murdered.” [07:19]
  • "It’s this insane, sick thing where we’re worried about mincing words to criticize Trump… when he does something as utterly disgusting and classless as this." [09:01]
  • "You literally—there's something broken in your brain to do that. I'm sorry." [10:20]
• Ari Weitzman explores Trump supporter rationalization:
  • "The behavior is always going to be secondary when the policy comes first... So if you say to somebody who's a hardcore MAGA supporter, 'The President said this and it was disgusting,' they'd be like, yeah, yeah, it was. But... we need somebody to fight." [11:02]
• John Lowell on the broader cultural cost:
  • “It’s not cost free. The coarsening of our politics... is not trivial. It matters the way the President talks about fellow Americans." [15:47]
  • Observes that even mid-tier Trump voters are "beyond exhausted" and predicts potential apathy that could impact turnout.

Notable Quotes:

• Foster (on the normalization of incivility):
  • "Maybe the most corrosive part potentially is just the Overton window being permanently moved..." [23:57]
• Lowell (on trickle-down cultural effects):
  • "I actually think the character of the person in the White House matters. And there’s a trickle down effect on the culture. I think we’ve witnessed the trickle down effect on the culture." [13:22]

Timestamps:

• [07:19] – Foster introduces and reacts to the Trump tweet.
• [10:20] – On what it takes psychologically to publish such a message.
• [11:02] – Weitzman on core supporter rationalizations.
• [15:33–19:43] – Lowell’s take on conservative exhaustion and shifting political red lines.

2. Susie Wiles in Vanity Fair: Inside Trump’s Administration

[35:56 – 52:50]

• Focus: Discussion of Vanity Fair’s article profiling Susie Wiles, Trump’s Chief of Staff, revealing behind-the-scenes accounts of the White House and policy disagreements, particularly on tariffs and foreign policy. Wiles is depicted as both highly competent and unusually candid.
• Surprise: Wiles’ willingness to speak on the record for 11 months, providing forthright, sometimes critical commentary about figures like Russell Vought, J.D. Vance, and Elon Musk.
• Camille Foster: “She seems like an incredibly powerful, smart, sharp woman. I have no clue why she did this… but it’s a really captivating read and it is basically all anybody in D.C. is talking about right now.” [39:54]
• Ari Weitzman: Noted there were few actual revelations, but a striking level of public candor: “Everything that you listed was like, yeah, no, I'd heard about that... So there is nothing here that was like, well, let me let you know this leak secret..." [41:22]

Main Discussion Threads:

• The lack of dissension in public among Trump’s team versus revealing honest frustration and disagreement behind the scenes.
• Possible motivations behind Wiles' openness: vanity, an attempt at legacy-building, or shrewd narrative control.
• Lowell speculates that Wiles’ statements may not truly threaten the administration but represent a strategic media relationship in Washington.

Notable Quotes:

• On tariffs and internal disagreement:
  • "We told Donald Trump... let's wait until we have the team in complete unity and then we’ll do it... But Trump barreled ahead, announcing sweeping reciprocal tariffs... which triggered panic in the bond market and a sell off of stocks." [48:50]

Timestamps:

• [36:22] – Introduction to Susie Wiles profile, key highlights.
• [41:22] – Weitzman on the lack of genuine new information, but notable candor.
• [44:05] – Lowell’s take on the possible media strategy behind Wiles’ openness.
• [48:50] – Tariff policy as a case study of discord and improvisation.

3. Interview: Camille Foster and Charles C.W. Cooke (National Review)

[56:12 – 105:51]

• Focus: Broad-ranging conversation on the Trump presidency (term two), the transformation of conservatism, the fate of the Republican Party, and the ideological clashes defining American right-of-center politics.
• Setting: Intellectual, measured, with a healthy dose of British wryness and skeptical pragmatism from Cooke.

Main Discussion Threads & Insights:

• Trump’s transformation of the GOP:
  • “By the time he won a second term... he had taken over the party. And there’s two reasons that matters: One is he doesn’t care what the Republican establishment thinks. The other is... what conservatism is, at any point, is what Trump happens to think in that moment.” [58:44]
• Policy successes & failures:
  • Judicial appointments and a more originalist Supreme Court as Trump’s lasting legacy.
  • Tariffs described as a "catastrophe": “I think they've destroyed his second term.” [63:47]
  • Failures on spending restraint and increased deficit.
• Immigration policy:
  • Applauds clear reduction in illegal border crossings, but criticizes the “gleeful” approach to deportations and the cultural toxicity of “theater” in enforcement.
  • “There should be a sorrow more than glee approach to deportations...” [67:50]
• Shift in conservatism and influencer culture:
  • National Review’s role as a gatekeeper is diminished in the current ecosystem of podcasts and influencer media, but the tradition of policing the movement’s boundaries remains vital: “The reason the Birchers were exiled is because they were wrong. Their central contention… was crazy.” [84:57]
  • Of today’s “influencer conservatives,” Cooke draws distinctions between those with genuine worldviews (e.g. Tucker Carlson), Trump loyalists, and genuinely dangerous ideologues (Nick Fuentes, etc.).
• Free speech, executive power, and the specter of 'fascism':
  • Cautious but fundamentally optimistic about American constitutional resilience: “The glorious thing about America, though, is the First Amendment… I am relaxed because of the First Amendment, not because I think Trump is a good president.” [100:29–105:46]

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Cooke on core change under Trump:
  • “What conservatism… is at any given point is what Trump happens to think in that moment.” [58:44]
• On the judiciary:
  • "It is more originalist than any judiciary in a long time. I think Antonin Scalia died thinking he'd lost that fight. But at the moment, the court is one of which Scalia… would recognize." [60:35]
• On tariffs:
  • “Tariffs, I think, are a catastrophe. I think they've destroyed his second term… the use of tariffs in this manner is unconstitutional.’’ [63:47]
• On deportations:
  • "There should be a sorrow more than glee approach to deportations." [67:50]
• On conservatism and the movement's boundaries:
  • “National Review always loved… intramural disputes on the right… But the difference between that and international jury is ruling the world should be obvious.” [85:43]
• On influencer conservatism:
  • “With the Tuckers of the world, it’s important to engage with what it is that they’re saying… Candace Owens… I just don’t know what on earth is happening there. So there’s a different bunch of people here and they need to be dealt with, I think, differently." [85:45]
• On system resilience:
  • “I think the system works, and I think that the public won’t put up with it for too long... I don’t think our system is weak enough to succumb to a Joe Biden or a Donald Trump.” [103:09]

Timestamps:

• [56:12] – Interview intro and framing.
• [58:22 – 60:35] – Defining legacy of Trumpism.
• [63:47] – Tariff policy as a disaster.
• [67:50] – Approach to immigration enforcement.
• [78:18 – 85:45] – The role and challenge of National Review, influencer conservatives, and movement boundaries.
• [100:29 – 105:46] – Executive power, the First Amendment, and the future.

4. Airing of Grievances & Closing

[105:52 – End (~113:48)]

Quick Hits:

• Camille Foster: “My grievance this week is just coughing... I can't stop coughing... I'm just living with it. I'm in hell.” [106:32]
• John Lowell: Gripe about social media clip montages lacking source context; highlights the journalistic necessity of clear attribution in the AI/deepfake era. [107:53]
• Ari Weitzman: Playful lament about not being able to insider trade on a hot stock tip; pivots to a humorous fantasy about a one-time “insider trade free pass” for the general public. [109:14]

Memorable Quotes

• On Trump’s tweet:
  “We should just keep saying that part. Stabbed to death by his son in his home alongside his wife, 12 hours before that. He's like, this is an awesome opportunity to dunk on how his acting career was bad at the end or whatever.” – Camille Foster [13:22]
• On Susie Wiles:
  “She kind of pulled the veil back in a way on things that I don't think we've had yet in this iteration of Trump.” – Camille Foster [36:23]
• On conservatism’s crossroads:
  “What is really confusing me is what happens when Trump goes... I still suspect that 50 to 60% of the right is more in the older mold.” – Charles C.W. Cooke [78:18]
• On American resilience:
  “I am relaxed because of the First Amendment, not because I think Trump is a good President.” – Charles C.W. Cooke [103:09]

Episode Structure (with Timestamps)

• [03:47] Rob Reiner tweet and cultural/political implications
• [35:56] Susie Wiles profile discussion and Trump White House dynamics
• [56:12] Charles C.W. Cooke interview (history, future of conservatism, Trump’s impact)
• [105:52] Airing of Grievances (personal, professional, comedic)
• [113:48] Wrap-up and credits

Final Notes

The episode is a thought-provoking, sometimes somber, but always lively examination of the state of American politics, political discourse, and the conservative movement. It stands out for its candor, robust debate, and the willingness of its hosts and guests to challenge their own side—and each other—while holding high the value of principled, reasoned engagement.