Suspension of the Rules. - Lydia Moynihan joins the show to give her take on the Venezuelan boat strikes, Trump's Economy and socialism spreading amongst Democrats.

Summary

Tangle Podcast: “Suspension of the Rules”

Featuring: Isaac Saul (Host) & Lydia Moynihan (New York Post columnist) Date: December 5, 2025

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Main Theme & Purpose

In this episode, Isaac Saul welcomes Lydia Moynihan to dive into three hot-button political topics: the Venezuelan boat strikes authorized by the Trump administration, debates over the “Trump economy” and affordability crisis, and the influence and growth of socialism within the Democratic Party. The episode is built around open disagreement and constructive arguments, illustrating Tangle’s mission of non-partisan, viewpoint-diverse debate on current political events.

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Episode Outline & Key Discussion Points

1. Introducing Lydia Moynihan and Her Media Journey

[02:10–06:13]

• Lydia recounts her path from growing up in Washington State, homeschooling, and attending a small Christian college in Manhattan, to interning at CNBC and rising through Fox Business to her current column at the New York Post.
  • Quote:

    “Once you come to New York, it’s kind of addicting … and then again, it’s like New York. Once you get in it, it’s kind of addicting.”
    — Lydia Moynihan [04:15]

• She discusses the excitement and unpredictability of the media world—and working with Charlie Gasparino, whom both she and Isaac call a rare, honest broker in journalism.
  • Quote:

    “He just does not give a fuck … he will piss off anybody, fire shots at his own side.”
    — Isaac Saul [06:03]

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2. Venezuelan Boat Strikes: Legal, Moral, and Media Framing

[06:40–26:23]

Lydia's Critique of Media Coverage & Selective Outrage

• Lydia argues the boat strikes have received outsize media attention largely because they happened under Trump; similar or worse actions under Obama/Biden got less scrutiny.
  • Quote:

    “It’s sort of selective outrage. ... The media only seems to care about it when it’s Trump. They didn’t seem that concerned when it was Biden or Obama.”
    — Lydia Moynihan [08:03]

War Crime Allegations & Legal Debate

• Lydia pushes back on calling the strikes a “war crime,” citing new reporting suggesting those targeted were not surrendering but calling for reinforcements.
  • Full legal context around “laws of armed conflict”: A second strike on surrendering combatants could be a war crime, but evidence suggests those killed were not surrendering.
  • Quote:

    “It doesn’t seem to fit that bill of war crime … I’ve yet to hear from any Republican that they don’t want to look more into this … it should be investigated.”
    — Lydia Moynihan [11:24]

Isaac’s Rebuttal: Selectivity & Fundamental Objections

• Isaac agrees media scrutiny should be consistent regardless of which party’s in power—Trump or Obama.
  • Quote:

    “The solution isn’t that this isn’t as big of a deal. It’s that … we should have been dogs about this when it was Obama or Biden in office, not just when it’s Trump.”
    — Isaac Saul [13:00]

• He challenges the very premise: Are we at war with drug smugglers? Should suspected traffickers be killed without judicial process?
  • Questions legitimacy of executive war powers and the idea that narco traffickers are proper targets of extrajudicial killing.
  • Notes cases where survivors were found to be innocent fishermen from Ecuador and Colombia, not “narco-terrorists.”
  • Quote:

    “Where in the United States is there a death penalty for smuggling drugs? … What makes it okay to kill people before they’re put on trial for the crime of smuggling drugs … then it’s okay?”
    — Isaac Saul [15:58]

Lydia’s Counterpoints: Precedent & Proportion

• Lydia cites longstanding executive precedent for military action without formal war declarations, especially in national security contexts.
  • Claims these interventions are proportional compared to other US wars.
  • Highlights the scale of US overdose deaths, comparing them to 9/11 as a rationale for aggressive action.
  • Quote:

    “We went to war in the Middle East because 3,000 people died. ... You look at the number of people who’ve died as a result of drugs, gangs … millions. And in response, we’ve killed just 80 people.”
    — Lydia Moynihan [25:43]

The Limits of Justification

• Isaac presses whether it is ever justifiable to kill for a non-capital crime.
  • Lydia responds by equating cartel violence to terrorism and calling the strikes proportionate and contextually justified to protect US citizens.

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3. The Trump Economy & Affordability Politics

[26:33–33:36]

Trump’s Messaging & Economic Realities

• Isaac notes that Trump is mirroring Biden’s mistake by downplaying the real affordability crisis, even calling it a “hoax.”
• Both parties' strategists are observing how misreading public sentiment on affordability can backfire.

Lydia’s Take: The Realities of Prices & Strategy for the Right

• Lydia:
  • Asserts the economy is better under Trump, but cautions that prices, after rising with Biden-era stimulus, won’t come back down.
  • Critiques leftist solutions as thinly veiled socialism and warns Republicans that ignoring cost-of-living realities is a mistake.
  • Quote:

    “I really don’t think there’s any world in which prices come down … I think ignoring that isn’t going to win over anyone.”
    — Lydia Moynihan [28:42]

• Both discuss polling showing young people’s openness to socialism.

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4. “Socialism” and Democratic Party Dynamics

[31:57–34:38]

• Isaac questions whether Democrats are truly becoming “socialist,” seeing Mamdani’s election as an exception.
• Lydia disagrees, arguing mainstream Democrats now align with the party’s left wing, citing polling that over 60% of under-30s have a favorable view of socialism.
  • Quote:

    “It seems like the energy of the party is with Zoran Maldani and AOC. … The conventional Democrats want to be associated with this super far-left flank.”
    — Lydia Moynihan [32:25]

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5. Episode Wrap-up & Reflections

[34:30–35:54]

• Brief, good-natured debate over whether Mamdani’s policy agenda is dangerous or just unworkable.
• Isaac sincerely thanks Lydia for her candor and willingness to engage in hard arguments.
  • Quote:

    “Thank you so much for having me. This was fantastic. I really enjoyed speaking with you.”
    — Lydia Moynihan [35:54]

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Notable Quotes

• “We went to war in the Middle East because 3,000 people died … and you look at the number of people who’ve died as a result of drugs … millions. And in response, we’ve killed just 80 people.”
  — Lydia Moynihan [25:43]

• “Where in the United States is there a death penalty for smuggling drugs yet we’re saying it’s okay to kill people before they’re even put on trial?”
  — Isaac Saul [15:58]

• “The solution isn’t that this isn’t as big of a deal. … We should have been dogs about this when it was Obama or Biden in office, not just when it’s Trump.”
  — Isaac Saul [13:00]

• “It is draconian. I’m not trying to be flip at all about saying that this isn’t a big deal or whatnot, but I don’t think that it is a misuse of force.”
  — Lydia Moynihan [24:27]

• “If there’s a third grader who’s running with the platform of free ice cream in middle school, they’re probably going to win, because all the kids want free ice cream.”
  — Lydia Moynihan (on socialist messaging) [28:42]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Topic | Timestamp (MM:SS) | |---------------------------------------|---------------------| | Lydia’s media background | 02:10–06:13 | | Venezuelan boat strikes – arguments & debate | 06:40–26:23 | | Trump economy & affordability crisis | 26:33–33:36 | | Socialism in the Democratic party | 31:57–34:38 | | Closing & thanks | 35:45–35:54 |

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Tone & Engagement

• The conversation was lively, sometimes combative but respectful—focused on presenting and pressing tough arguments with clarity and good humor.
• Isaac played the role of skeptic and devil’s advocate, Lydia argued with conviction but often conceded nuance and complexity.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This summary captures the essence of a robust, viewpoint-diverse discussion on contentious news topics—a spirited debate about executive power, moral responsibility, fairness in media coverage, and the future of political economy in America. Lydia Moynihan articulated the right's rationale for tough action on narco-trafficking and skepticism toward progressive economics, while Isaac challenged her on points of law, justice, and lived experience—delivering insight, disagreement, and moments of real common ground.

Transcript

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Coming up, Lydia Moynihan from the New York Post joins me so we can argue about the Venezuelan boat strikes. We talk a little bit about the Trump economy and the affordability crisis and socialism spreading among Democrats. And then Ari joins for the back half of the show after a disastrous day getting to the vet to talk about the Somali fraud scheme stuff happening in Minnesota and then a really good grievances section. You guys are going to enjoy this one.

Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening and welcome to the Suspension of the Rules podcast where it's just optional to show up. Now, both my co hosts are absent today. Camille. Good excuse. Ari. Good excuse. Family stuff, dog stuff. Thankfully, we had a guest planned for the show today, so you don't have to just listen to me. I'm not here by myself. I am joined by Lydia Moynihan, a columnist at the New York Post who has been all over. I mean, I can't turn on my TV without seeing her anymore, which is awesome.

[Lydia Moynihan]

I'm so sorry. That's terrifying.

[Isaac Saul]

No, no, I'm a fan. I'm a fan. Lydia, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you joining us on short notice.

[Lydia Moynihan]

Of course. I'm glad that you're not like, ugh, this Bitch.

[Isaac Saul]

No, no, no, no.

[Lydia Moynihan]

I think some people do feel that way.

[Isaac Saul]

So I did. I will say I brought you here today because I have beef, but we're going to get into it. I disagree with one of your takes, and my favorite thing to do is to have these conversations with people when I'm on the other side of stuff. So I want to get into that. We're going to talk Venezuela boat strikes, where you and I are on opposite sides of this one. I'm going to give you a chance to make your case, because last week I went off and Ari and Camille, who are my co hosts on the show, they were basically on my side. Oftentimes the three of us disagree a lot. That's what Tango's all about. It's why we're here. But we were just like a line last week and then I saw your clip on this. I'll tell you a funny story, actually. I went to go. I was going to, quote, tweet something you had tweeted because we follow each other on Twitter. Like I said, I'm a fan of your stuff. I was going to, quote, tweet something you tweeted and, like, criticize it. And then I was like, this is such, like a media asshole thing to do. Just like, tell her to come on the show and talk about it. And then I dmed you and you were like, immediately game. So I am stoked to have you here, But I always do, before we jump in with our guests, the first thing I always do is I'd love to just hear a little bit about your background, like how you got into media. Give us the Lydia Moynihan story on how you ended up in the New York Post and all over CNN and Fox News and doing all these awesome TV hits.

[Lydia Moynihan]

I see you doing the spiel. Well, I've always wanted to be omniscient, so I'm on my quest to do just that. No, I'm actually from Washington state, just outside Portland, Oregon, of all places. You don't meet a lot of people on the east coast from that region. Anyway. Beautiful place to grow up. I actually was homeschooled, and then I went to a very tiny Christian college in Manhattan that has since closed. But once you come to New York, it's kind of addicting and you sort of forget that you're living in like a six floor walk up and you have to take your laundry across the street. And it's just an exciting place to be. So once you're here, you're like, wait, I Have to stay here. And I interned at cnbc, which was just very cool, I think, coming from the west coast, where everyone I knew had jobs that were very conventional, like engineered doctor. It was cool to see people, like, in news and they were getting to. As an intern, I got to, like, go to a courthouse and see a trial. And it just seemed so exciting. And then again, it's like New York. Once you get in it, it's kind of addicting. And then I. I got a job at Fox Business working with Charlie Gasparino. We had a lot of fun. He. He had me do some of his dirty work. I'd have to call everyone and they. They would scream at me instead of him. And then. I've been at the Post for four years. I have a column now. I write a lot about the intersection of business and politics. I do a lot of interviews. But it's fun. I mean, it's a good time to be in media. There's never been so much to cover before.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, there's never been so much to cover, and there's opportunity everywhere. It seems like, Charlie, that sounds like an awesome job to have. I respect him so much. He's, like, one of the few people I feel like who's left in the media world? He's just, like, not scared of anything.

[Lydia Moynihan]

Does not give a fuck.

[Isaac Saul]

He just does not give a fuck. He just, like, he will piss off anybody, fire shots at his own side. I'm a huge fan of his stuff. So he's an honest broker.

[Lydia Moynihan]

You're never worried that he's trying to, like, protect someone or spend something a certain way?

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, I don't know him personally, but that's the read I have on him from watching him from afar. All right, so I wanna jump into it. We're gonna talk about some of the stuff going on in Trump world. I think you write a lot about the economy and stuff. I wanna talk about that. The thing that's in the news right now that we're getting bombarded with is the Venezuela boat strike.

[Lydia Moynihan]

Literally and figuratively, I guess.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I saw you. I saw you make a point. I think it was on cnn, maybe with Abby Phillips. You were saying, you know, basically criticizing the outsize amount of coverage this story has gotten given the Obama drone strikes, stuff that happened in the past, that was just kind of like, ended up being a blip on the radar. But I think it was. I was struck personally that I felt like I was getting from you basically an outright defense of some of these strikes. I Spent last week on the show kind of hammering the Trump administration for this, I think probably saying stuff that you might categorize as run of the mill sort of mainstream center, center left commentary, which was just like, this seems like it's illegal. This seems like it's a war crime. We don't know who these people are. And I've been really upset about it. So I wanted to bring you on to hear you make the case for our audience because, like, the mission here is viewpoint diversity, expose people to different arguments. And last week on this show, people did not get an argument in favor of these boat strikes, candidly. So I'm curious, like, give me your view on what's happening these last few weeks. Kind of what you're seeing make the case to our audience like you've been making it. You know, I've seen you on cnn, Fox News and stuff making this case. I'm curious to hear that. And then I want to talk to you about it a bit little.

[Lydia Moynihan]

So one criticism I have is just the amount of attention that this is getting. I want to touch on that. And then I do also want to address the allegations that this is a war crime because obviously the first point about the outside coverage is getting doesn't actually address whether or not this was a good or a right thing. And both of those are important issues to address. So, one, I do get frustrated that the media has just wall to wall coverage of this. And I think this is part of a bigger trend that we see from the mainstream media is they're so quick to sort of lose the forest for the trees and always take the side of whoever it is that they deem to be the victim or the oppressed. And so we've seen this with ICE raids time and time again, you know, and I feel that they often lose the forest from the trees, right? They focus just on anybody who they think DHS has victimized. And instead of acknowledging that actually people's lives have been destroyed by unvetted illegal immigrants, they leave that out and then they just focus on, you know, Kilmar, Abrego, Garcia. We heard that nonstop. So I feel like there's these talking points that really just, I don't know, kind of obfuscate what's actually going on. So I think that's my frustration with the way this has been covered and the amount of coverage that it's gotten. And I think it is important to note and look, there are some people who are consistent where they've always been opposed to drone strikes. But I would Say, I have noticed that this has gotten way more attention than any drone strike from Obama or Biden. Obama drone striked American civilians. And, you know, drone strikes a wedding, he dropped something like 16,000 bombs on Syria. Biden, a similar incident, you know, he drone strike civilians. So those things have happened a lot. And that's not a justification of drone strikes in general, but it's an observation that the media only seems to care about it when it's Trump. They didn't seem that concerned when it was Biden or Obama. So I think it's sort of selective outrage. But to your second point about whether or not this is a war crime, I think what feels really frustrating is one report can create an entire news cycle that consumes the entire dialogue, the entire conversation, and people don't actually take a step back to offer the other side or to say, the question is, we don't know. We don't have all the answers yet. And so you saw all of these lawmakers who thought, oh, this is a great opportunity for me to slam the administration. And Pete Hegseth. So Almost every Democratic 2028 hopeful was making the rounds this weekend saying, you know, if this Washington Repost Post report is true, you know, Pete Hegseth is a war criminal. And what the Washington Post report alleged, and this does get a little into the weeds, is they basically alleged that this was a violation of the laws of armed conflict. So if you are fighting an enemy combatant, if you have a strike and let's say the boat had been completely destroyed and there were helpless people in the water, they were victims. They were surrendering, it would be a war crime to have a second shot that killed them. That would be a war crime. So that was what the Washington Post story alleged.

What we're learning now and what the New York Times has reported and what the White House is saying is that actually they weren't victims and trying to surrender. They were actually calling for reinforcement and wanting to complete this mission of delivering drugs and continue with what exactly they were doing. So in that case, it's actually not a war crime. So I think it's frustrating that this is a very nuanced and challenging dialogue, and people don't take the time to look into that. They just are quick to jump on the bandwagon of I hate Donald Trump, I hate Pete Hegseth. So I'm gonna go after them. And the fact of the matter, when you look at it, it doesn't seem to me based on the laws of armed conflict, based on what I'VE been read difference between a disabled boat and a destroyed boat. It doesn't seem to fit that bill of war crime. I do want to note, and I think almost every Republican has said this needs to be investigated. We need to make sure that everything was done correctly. And I've yet to hear from any Republican that they don't want to look more into this. I think there's absolutely, you know, need to make sure that everything was done properly and that it should be investigated to make sure that, again, we want to do things as correctly as possible, and we're doing that. So I think it's, it's, it's. Yeah, that's. That's my take. And again, I just feel frustrated that the media always seems to take the side of the victim, whoever that is, even if they're a nervo terrorist.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, I mean, well, okay, first of.

[Lydia Moynihan]

All, I'm glad you brought up for, like.

[Isaac Saul]

No, I. No, no, no. I mean, that's why you're here. I want to actually hear the case and have it out a little bit. And I'm glad I did because I think I see, first of all, some lines of agreement, for sure. I mean, number one, I think the media criticism element of it I subscribe to. I mean, my position might be a little different. I might say it a little differently, which is like, I wish the media had covered the Obama drone strikes with the same tenacity that they're covering this. I mean, to me, the solution isn't that, like, this isn't as big of a deal. It's that, like, you know, we should have been dogs about this when it was Obama or Biden in office, not just when it's Trump. This is something I've said. You know, I've tried to put this argument out into the world. It hasn't gotten much traction, to be totally honest. But my take is. Well, yeah, I mean, my take has always just been the treatment of Trump is only unfair because the press doesn't treat other Obama types the same way. When in reality, I think the tenacity the press has with Trump is the tenacity the press should have with every president. And if that were the case, then Trump wouldn't have the sort of media bias claims that he has. I think it's fair when he makes them because I do think he gets treated differently. I think part of it is that he's an extraordinary president in a lot of ways, some good, some bad. But, like, I don't think the tenacity was ever the Same with Obama. So I'll see that point. I guess, like underlying it for me is, I mean, the war crime question, we talked about this last week before the New York Times Post. I didn't have the benefit of the New York Times report and the ABC News report came out, which to your point, they were, they're now, there's now this question being surfaced which is what if these guys were trying to get back on the boat and, and we're calling for reinforcements, which is now, you know, it's what the defense coming out of the Department of Defense is. And there are sources leaking this in the New York Times and ABC and they're reporting it. I'm stuck on like the question of are we at war with drug smugglers? I mean, to me there is no war with Venezuela. So like doing this in the first place, like this conversation only works if you're ceding the administration's point out of the get go that these are enemy combatants so we can treat them like they're enemy combatants. Which, like, I don't buy that. So I think, like, I struggle to even get sort of to first base on the question. It's just like, I don't think we're at war with Venezuela. I don't think we're at war with these drug runners despite the narco terrorist designation. But I think like the second part of it is, you know.

It just has the extra judicial killing feel like, you know, we have one instance where there's been survivors and at least one of those survivors now.

Like was repatriated to his country who came out and said the guy was a fisherman. He wasn't even Venezuelan, by the way, he was Ecuadorian. They're like, this guy's a fisherman, he's not guilty. We're not going to charge him with anything. There's, you know, these Colombian guys who died in one of these strikes again, not Venezuelan, whose family is now filing like a human rights violation saying that they were fishermen. Like, I don't know where in the United States is there a death penalty for smuggling drugs yet we're saying it's okay to kill people before they're even put on trial for the crime of smuggling drugs. If they're in the Caribbean waterways, like, then it's okay. I mean, I think this is the thing that I struggle with and I guess I'm curious if you could respond to that like that. I'm just like, we're killing these people who. We don't have proof. I mean, the administration has not brought forward Proof that they are who they say they are. You can see in some of the clips there appears to me, you know, my untrained eye to be, you know, big white looking boxes that I suppose could be drugs that are on the boat, but we don't really have proof. We have one instance of survivors where at least one of them who has repatriated to his country, they came out and said he wasn't what the administration says. And then we have another family now going to this human rights org saying that their, their father, whatever, was innocent and trying to file some sort of claim. And many of the survivors have not even been Venezuelan while the administration's telling us they're killing these Venezuelan drug runners. It's just like the whole thing stinks to me. So I'm curious, like how you respond to that framing or reframing of the issue.

[Lydia Moynihan]

Yeah, I mean, I think there's been numerous reports over the years of fishermen who decide they want to be drug runners. CNN actually had like a lengthy hour long interview and lengthy report with one gentleman who was not Venezuelan but realized why am I fishing for fish when I could be making hundreds of thousands of dollars running drugs? So just because somebody's a fisherman doesn't mean that they're also not doing that. I think the boats don't look like fishing boats. They absolutely look like drug boats. And as to your question about whether or not we should be able to bomb people who we view as problematic or a threat to the U.S. i think there is a long standing precedent for presidents having this kind of authority.

Obviously, mostly it's been in the Middle east that we've seen this and I think we have again, and to your point, maybe we should have been more critical and this was happening with Obama or Biden. But I think the last person to really like declare war and get congressional input, I mean, I think that was, I want to say fdr. I'm blanking on this now, but it was decades and decades ago. So we have in America just sort of given the President.

This sort of freedom and this authority to take these kinds of actions.

So I think in that regard I agree with that. I also agree that, you know, again, because of the precedent where we were in war with the Middle east, where we were dealing with terrorists there, how much more so is it a problem that these sort of crimes are happening in our own hemisphere? I think we should absolutely be much more attuned to what's happening in our own backyard. And the Trump administration has said they view this really ultimately not as a foreign policy issue, but as a national security issue. And so I do resonate with that as well. I think. I know one criticism has been that, you know, oh, fentanyl is largely coming from Mexico.

[Isaac Saul]

And China.

[Lydia Moynihan]

Lots of other drugs are also coming from Venezuela. And we also know that during the pandemic, these. Venezuela, a number of groups were stockpiling fentanyl and cocaine. So there is some intelligence that would suggest there is more fentanyl now potentially coming from Venezuela. So, look, yeah, I understand maybe quibbling with this idea of whether or not they should be labeled narco terrorists. I think they are. And there was another FBI report that came out earlier this year, basically talking about Maduro trying to send gangs here. So chaos in the U.S. so I think it's an important place for the U.S. to be focused. And I also think it's important as well. This is sort of a proxy war in my mind as well, because China has given so much support to Venezuela, given them arms. So I think to an extent, China and Russia and other geopolitical enemies are paying attention to the way that we are operating and what we're allowing in this hemisphere.

[Isaac Saul]

All right, so last question on this, and I want to move on to the. Some of the Trump economy stuff. I guess maybe my, like, if I seeded all this, the, you know, we're at war at the end of the world.

[Lydia Moynihan]

There are like, there are so many different. And you're doing a great job of highlighting there's so many different points of agreement or disagreement because there are so many things going on all at once.

[Isaac Saul]

But.

[Lydia Moynihan]

Sorry, carry on.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, no, I mean.

I think it's true. I mean, like, it's hard because I'm in the mode where I'm on the other side of the issue. So, you know, when I hear you say we gave. Give this authority in the Middle east, you know, my initial thought is like, yeah, but in the Middle east, we were killing alleged terrorists who were. I mean, literal terrorists who were killing people. Suicide bombers, you know, Al Qaeda, isis, like groups that were committing heinous, heinous crimes of murder, et cetera. And here were killing people accused of the crime of smuggling drugs. Now, I don't want to downplay that because, look, I grew up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. I talk about this a lot on the show. I talked about when the first drone strike happened. Actually, I look back at my writing in September and cringe a little bit, because what I said when the first strikes were at what happened, I was like, my initial instinct was like, Hell, yeah. Like, fuck them. I, Like, I. You know, I have 20 kids from my high school class who have overdosed and died since I graduated. Like, my. My town was crushed by the opioid epidemic, and I want to see heads roll for that. And if, you know. So there was this emotional part of me where, like, I get it, and I'm like, hell, yeah, Trump's making them pay. Nobody holds these guys accountable, whatever. And then when I sort of settle my emotions a little bit, I'm like, I don't support the, you know, capital punishment for people selling drugs in America, like, emotionally, great. But, you know, actually, push comes to shove, that's not something I would ever support. And I guess I'm just like, I don't know how to bridge that gap where it's like, even if I cede every. All of these points, we get all the way to, like, we're at war with Venezuela, they're narco terrorists, they're enemy combatants. It's not a war crime. They're calling the guys for backups, whatever. Like, let all that go. It's just like, should we be killing people for the crime of smuggling drugs when, like, in our country, that is not something that we ever execute somebody for? And, like, I just can't get there. And I don't know how to, like, how. How you can defend that when we're doing it just because they're foreigners in, you know, international waters. To me, it's like, that doesn't. That doesn't raise the level of the crime, I guess, to that point. Even without getting into the fact that these are all alleged drug smugglers, et cetera, et cetera.

[Lydia Moynihan]

Yeah, no, I mean, it is an important point. I mean, I think the way that you conceded that it was justified that we were targeting terrorists in the Middle East, I think that's what I would say about what's happening in our own hemisphere. I think there is a lot of evidence that especially Chandargua, all of these gangs are heavily involved with this. I think they perform similar disgusting, horrible, violent acts.

So I would say, to me, it's really the same logic that we used in the Middle east with terrorists. And I think in some ways it's more relevant because these are people who are impacting our lives much more than anybody in Syria or Iran is. I think it has a much more immediate impact, and I hope this is a short term.

I think yesterday in the Cabinet meeting, Trump said, drugs coming in, the seas have been reduced by 91%. So I hope that this is Something that provides deterrence and doesn't have to be enacted over the long term. I do think it is. It's draconian. I'm not trying to be flip at all about saying that this isn't a big deal or whatnot, but I don't think that it is a misuse of force. When you consider, you know, we went to war in the Middle east because 3,000 people died. I mean that, again, this is the Middle east is a whole different story. There was so much going on. But we went to war in the Middle east essentially because of the 911 terrorist attacks that killed 3,000 people, and we ended up killing 4 plus million people as a result. And then you look at the number of people who've died as a result of drugs, gangs, all of that, you're talking about millions. And in response, we've killed just 80 people. So I think in warfare, we think about this concept of proportionality a lot. And that's one thing that I've been thinking of. How did we justify killing millions of people when just 3,000 were killed on 9 11?

That's a question that I'm still grappling with. But to me, I look at the proportionality of the impact of drugs and narco terrorism in the US And I think the result of what we're doing now is pretty proportional, especially when you consider the history of warfare. You know, you look at the number of people you killed In World War II, any of these wars, there's way more civilians that have been killed, and people seem to accept that that's a reality of warfare. So I would say, again, it's never pleasant or happy that this is a reality, but I think this is a very proportional fight that is being had.

[Isaac Saul]

All right, I promise. Last question. I have many more thoughts, but I do want to cover some other stuff before you get out of here, because I know your time's a little bit limited.

I want to talk about the last, I guess we say the last month of elections and sort of the state of Republican Party Trump politics right now. It's been. I mean, it's been a wild ride. Obviously, we just had the Marjorie Taylor Greene resignation.

[Lydia Moynihan]

I know that feels like two years ago.

[Isaac Saul]

I know, like Matt Maga infighting. We had some elections in November that went pretty well for Democrats, I think. And then, you know, now everybody after this Tennessee election yesterday, there's sort of a lot of positioning, you know, Trump sort of celebrating Democrats saying they did so well. One of the issues that you write a lot about is the economy. I think all of a sudden, everybody, Democrats and Republicans, are realizing that the affordability question is, like, the number one motivator for voters right now. Republicans were keyed in on this in 2024. I think it's a big reason why Trump won and a big reason, more importantly, why the Biden Harris ticket lost, because they were trying to tell people that inflation wasn't that bad when it was really bad. And now it seems like Trump is, to me, from where I'm sitting, barreling a little bit towards making a similar mistake that Biden made, where I think he's downplaying some of the affordability issues that people are feeling.

It's Trumpian, but he's saying the affordability stuff is a hoax. And the scam. Yeah, scam. Things are getting better. So I'm curious. I'm reading Politico in the morning, like many journalists do, and they're reporting that all these Democratic strategists are, like, licking their chops because Trump is now doing the same thing Biden did. He's denying that there's, like, an affordability problem. I'm wondering if, like, you could give me your read on both how the Trump administration's navigating the issue on the politics side and, like, where we are economically. I mean, whether things are actually getting better under Trump or not, because it seems like at least the American sentiment is not improving much, and he's kind of doubling down on this idea that things are getting better. Democrats feel like this is an advantage for them. What's your read on this sort of this question?

[Lydia Moynihan]

And, I mean, it's interesting to see now Democrats are essentially turning to socialism as an alternative to capitalism amid this sort of affordability debate. One general point is it's always so much harder to be the incumbent if people are not happy with the economy. And, you know, months before November 2024, a lot of smart people, pollsters, were saying, a president has never won when sentiment about the economy is this bad. The incumbent has never won when the sentiment about the economy is this bad. And it was obviously much easier for Trump then to say bidenomics is a fail. One thing that is really tricky is I do think the economy is doing much better now than it was under Biden. But the reality is that inflation has gone up so much since COVID because Biden in particular passed the Inflation Reduction act, which, of course, poured trillions of dollars into the economy. Prices went up, and unless we have deflation, which would be very painful and very bad for the economy, Prices aren't actually going to come down. That is just a hard reality. And I think that is a message that Republicans are going to have to acknowledge, because I really don't think there's any world in which prices come down. I think we can always keep them close year over year to where they were last year. But inflation and even the Federal Reserve, which is in charge of monetary policy and inflation, their target is 2% inflation. So that means that prices are basically going up every year at least 2%. So that is one super tough reality. And I think ignoring that isn't going to win over anyone. I do think there are things that Trump is doing in terms of deregulation, in terms of energy, that is very positive. I think he can point to that. I think he can point to other measures that he's taking. Home building is up. There are positive signs. But I think Republicans need to be brutally honest about the fact that prices are not in almost any universe going to be coming down. It's interesting, though, seeing this sort of move from the left, embrace socialism. And that is really concerning to me because obviously, it's easy to message free, free, free. It's easy for Zoram Hamdani to sell this idea that, oh, I just want the government to take care of you. Don't worry about anything. And I don't, I don't know how Republicans combat that, because obviously, if there's a third grader who's running with the platform of free ice cream in middle school, like, they're probably going to win because all the kids want free ice cream. So I think Republicans need to be honest about where we are and point to the fact that Republican policies do actually work in the long run and socialist policies don't work in the long run. And I think, again, there's certain things they can point to already, like gas prices. But I think denying somebody's reality and how they're feeling about the economy is not the right way to approach this.

[Isaac Saul]

Do you think the, like, the socialism embrace is real? I mean, my. I mean, Mamdani, to me, feels more like an exception, I guess, than the rule. I mean, how do you, how would you describe the sort of state of the Democratic Party in that sense? Because it seems to me like he's an outlier less than he is defining the party's path forward. I guess.

[Lydia Moynihan]

I disagree. I think Democrats have this sort of sensibility where they always embrace the most radical thing. Republicans by nature are much more conservative. They're much more averse to change, whereas Democrats I think are inherently more radical. They, like, are kind of excited for the next thing that pushes the envelope. And somebody like Zoram Donnie is certainly doing that. And it seems like the energy of the party is with Zoran Maldani and aoc. And you look at Hakeem Jeffries and Kathy Hochul, those sort of conventional Democrats had to certainly bow the knee essentially to Zoran and endorse him. And they want to be associated with this super far left flank of the party. Right. Otherwise, Kathy Hochul never would have endorsed Mamdani. So I at least see in those instances that conventional Democrats want to be associated with this radical agenda because they think it's popular. And if you look at the polling, I mean, I think people under the age of 30, like 60%, have a favorable view of socialism. So I think if they're looking at the polling, they're like, oh, this is a winning message. Like, I should jump on this bandwagon.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, I mean, it does. You know, I feel like there's been a lot of interesting writing and thinking about this, even out of the Maga Trump world. I mean, like, Peter Thiel, I think, wrote a really great, interesting piece about just sort of why socialism is appealing to the next generation and how conservatives need to have a response to it, because it's like, it's a very real thing. But that. The kind of capitalist failure of this generation, I have no idea where it goes. I mean, I've been joking that, you know, I wouldn't have voted for mom Donnie, but I'm excited to see the experiment. Now that I live in Philadelphia, I'm happy to watch it from afar. And if he can pull off free. If he. If he gets free childcare pulled off, I'll be sure to move back and enjoy that and, you know, soak up the riches of that in New York City. But I'm skeptical, I'll put it that way. But, yeah, it's. It's a wild time. Well, Lydia, I know you're. You're busy.

[Ari Weitzman]

Tried before.

[Lydia Moynihan]

We kind of know where it lands. But yeah, I mean, trying things again and again and hoping for something different.

[Isaac Saul]

My perspective on Mamdani is like, I don't, you know, I don't view him as like, some big evil. It's like, you know, the guys pushing for free grocery store. The government run grocery stores and free buses and free child care. I don't think these are, like, insidious, awful, unethical things to do. I just think there's no way he's gonna make it happen. And he won't get anything done with Kathy Hochul as governor. And there's gonna be this big push and pull and the stuff he's gonna pilot will probably fail. And like that sort of, I'm like less threatened by it than I am. Like, I just don't really feel like it's gonna work. But, you know, who knows? I mean, maybe it'll be a chaotic four years or whatever and we'll be sitting here talking about how he underestimated the 3 threat four years from now. I've been wrong like that before, but I'm just like, I'm not quite as alarmed as I am sort of bemused by the whole thing, I guess.

[Lydia Moynihan]

Well, you're also an outside observer, so that's true.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, it's not my tax dollars, so I'm okay for right now. Lydia Moynihan, thank you for joining us. I know you've gotta run. If people wanna keep up with your work, where's the best place for them to do that?

[Lydia Moynihan]

I am too, online, on Twitter. That's my, that's my one place where I post the clips. L.J. moynihan, all right.

[Isaac Saul]

I love it. Lydia, thanks so much for the time. I appreciate it.

[Lydia Moynihan]

Thank you so much for having me. This was fantastic. I really enjoyed speaking with you.

[Isaac Saul]

We'll be right back after this quick break.

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All right, we are done with Lydia Moynihan for today and quickly back in her place is our beloved co host, Ari Weitzman, our managing editor. Ari, I joked at the top of the show. I did, you know, I've been improving all our intros every week. And I said, this is now the show where showing up as a co host is apparently optional. I was flying solo. I felt naked without you and Camille today, but managed to have a pretty good conversation with Lydia Moynihan about some of the Venezuela boat strike stuff, which I was sad you weren't here for. But you're being a good dog father, so that's the important thing.

I think.

[Ari Weitzman]

I really wish I could have been there for this conversation. I wanted to see. I left this in our show notes, and I'm sure this is something you're able to talk with her about, but I wanted to see what would happen when we could push past the first easy talking points of why do people care about drug dealers more than the people who are victims of drug dealing in the United States? I think that's something where there's a lot of common ground on. And once we get past that to actually talk about the effectiveness of these strikes, I think we can have reasonable conversations. But I really wanted to be a part of that reasonable conversation. I'm hoping that's something you're able to do. I trust that you did and found a lot of interesting things to talk with Lydia about.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, she was great. She was, you know, I think she made the case about it as well as you could have. I don't know that she moved my position so much as gave me some more to think about in terms of what the important elements of my argument and my side were. I mean, on the effectiveness thing, she quoted the White House as saying that there's been something like a 90% reduction in this kind of trafficking. I had not heard that stat or claim, and I can't verify it. She said explicitly that she wished and hoped that this was a deterrent, that she didn't want to see this as some ongoing thing, that her sincere wish was that this kind of pushed these drug runners away from doing this and that they were scared enough not to do it. I think.

There wasn't really a clear answer to my inquiry about, you know, how do you justify this when smuggling drugs isn't a capital punishment in the United States. Like, what makes it okay to kill these people, even if we see it everything, that they're enemy combatants, that, you know, they are smuggling the drugs, you get, like, if we give up all those points, is it okay to do this? And from her, I did not get, like, a clear response to that. I think the one argument that she made that was novel, from what I've heard, it was the first time I had heard it that she made in response to that, which I'm gonna chew on a bit, which was, you know, we went to war in the Middle east and launched the war on terror over September 11, which ostensibly killed 3,000 people. And we ended up killing hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in the Middle east in response to that crime. And we talk about drug overdoses in the United States, which have killed hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, millions of Americans, and we've killed 80 people in response to that crime. And. And everybody is sort of pearl clutching over this when, like, she sort of said, I think there's a really good argument. This is a way bigger threat that we're addressing to the American people than Islamic terrorism was. Which, you know, I think it's not an apples to apples comparison, but it was the first time I'd heard it framed that way, and I thought it was pretty interesting. I mean, I, you know, I'm. There's something about it that doesn't quite land for me. But I'm also cognizant of the fact that it wasn't an argument that I came up with on my own to kind of try and address. I mean, I think the most obvious thing to me would just be, like, the directness between flying planes into the Twin Towers and killing a bunch of Americans and drugs being smuggled into the United States and people taking those drugs, buying them from American drug dealers, and then overdosing on them, like, the cause.

[Ari Weitzman]

Of having other drugs, like, mixed in with them. I mean, we're talking about cocaine out of Venezuela. I think, like, drugs should be talking about Alexa as a monolith.

[Isaac Saul]

I brought that up with her, too. And Another argument she made about that was that, like, during the pandemic, we actually had intelligence reports that Venezuela did participate a little bit in the. In the fentanyl trade that these Venezuelan drug drug dealers did. And also that cocaine is often a vehicle for fentanyl, which is true. And that's a good point that, like, sometimes cocaine is being cut with fentanyl and that's what kills people because they think they're doing some sort of, you know, again, not endorsing cocaine. I've had to say that twice now on the show. Like, that it's a less, you know, dangerous drug or whatever, but then it's. It's caught with fentanyl and ends up killing people. So, yeah, I'm. I mean, we. We just wrapped recording two minutes ago, so I'm still thinking a good bit about some of the arguments she put out, but it was great. She was awesome. I'm super grateful for her time and glad to have her on, but we've done a good bit without you on the Venezuelan bow strikes. We covered it in the podcast this week, and I did want to get into some of the other stories that have been in the news this week. Most urgently, I think is wanting to talk about the Somali fraud scandal in Minneapolis and follow up a little bit on our coverage there.

I did not get to write the take this week. Will took it in part because Will's our resident Minnesotan. Is Minnesotan. Is that what they are?

[Ari Weitzman]

I think that's right, yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

Okay. Will's our resident Minnesotan, so he had some personal background that he could tie into the take, which we always love to do. You know, Audrey wrote the take this morning about the Tennessee elections. Also because I woke up on Wednesday morning deathly ill from some kind of, like, stomach flu virus that just ravaged my household and wasn't physically capable of writing the take.

[Ari Weitzman]

But I was behind the scenes information.

[Isaac Saul]

That everybody's been clamoring for. Yeah, but I was. I was impressed with what Will wrote. I thought he had a really good piece on it. I think he maybe wrote it better than I could have, to be honest. Like, I. He thought of some stuff and some frameworks that I wouldn't have introduced on my own. So it was fascinating to read. I really appreciated his take and I started mixing up in the comments a little bit because he was getting, you know, hammered. I guess not hammered isn't the right word, but he. Some of the criticism he was getting was that we were sort of giving this free pass to the Trump administration's Racism against Somali immigrants. And.

I was struggling with this one man, I gotta say. And I'm trying to be. I don't have, like, totally fully baked, fully formed opinions on this. I mean, this is a story that's fairly new. The fraud story has been around for a few years, but it broke open in a new way after the City Journal report. And, you know.

I see a clear distinction between something like the Afghan shooter who killed a National Guard member and put another one in critical condition, being 1 in 190,000 Afghans, and this story about an immigrant community in the Minneapolis, Minnesota area of. I think it's roughly 90,080. And this fraud, these fraud schemes involving close to a hundred Somali members of that community. And then also, I mean, this is the part that I feel like people are overlooking, also hundreds of families who participated in the schemes in order to produce the revenue that made the schemes worthwhile in the first place. And.

I think it's. To me, it sucks because the Trump administration is, like, doing this gross xenophobic. Get all these Somalis out. They're not compatible with the United States. They can't live here, whatever, because they're doing that. It's like the people operating at our level or my level, I don't want to speak for you, Operating at my level. Can't say. Well, actually, I think there is something.

About this group that bears analysis, that calls on us to talk about why this particular group of Somali immigrants is participating in a scheme like this at such a huge scale, and that if we ignore that, it becomes harder to sort of come to a resolution or figure out what to do about it. You know, I quoted. I was. I was chopping it up with Dan, who's one of our. One of our most notorious commenters. Yeah, yeah, He's. He's. He's always in the comments section. Him and I exchange emails a lot. He's frequently a critic. But, you know, I also think like a supporter of our work, which is part of where the criticism comes from. Very on the left, I think decidedly on the left. And I was sort of saying, you know, I was pushing back on. And some of his criticism of Will's take. And a comment that I left on the article, just saying, like, there's, you know, in the New York Times, there's this Somali, Somali American academic whose expertise is Somali studies, saying that the fact that all these Somali immigrants come from Somalia, a country with a broken government, where corruption is a huge thing, and where this kind of stuff is common, there is a direct tie to them being here and seeing opportunity in a really generous welfare state for fraud. Like is that guy racist for saying, is that like a bigoted thing to point out from this? To me it's like, no, of course not. And I don't want to misstate Dan or others. I mean he wasn't the only one. There are a lot of other arguments being made along this line. But one of the things Dan said to me was like, you know, this would be like asking what is it about Jews that makes them so liable for to commit financial fraud crimes because of like Bernie Madoff, you know. And my response was there actually.

Yeah, inbounds question. But like there actually is a story about Jews that is informative about not why Jews are fraudsters, but about why they're so involved in the finance overrepresented.

[Ari Weitzman]

In a couple fields. Yeah, that's cultural.

[Isaac Saul]

Like Jews are overrepresented in the finance world. There's like a direct story here which is that in Europe in the 20th century and the 19th century, Jews were not permitted or were not prohibited from certain like financial practices the same way some Catholics and Christians were, which opened a door for them to proliferate in the financial space. And that became like a career that many Jews had in Europe because there was this opportunity for them that other Catholics and Christians in Europe did not have. And that sort of spread down in the generations when the Jewish diaspora happened.

[Ari Weitzman]

Like which go back further too. I think the Netherlands in the 16th century, 17th century were among the most tolerant countries in Europe at the time. Had a disproportionate amount of Jews and during a period when they were leading the world in innovations and shipbuilding and mercantilism and financial reform that created opportunities for people that were overrepresented in Dutch culture to be involved in those kinds of fields. So the route is even longer is what I would say. But continue.

[Isaac Saul]

Right. And all. And like, and, and so to me, like that is actually a one to one. It's like there's nothing inherent about the Jew like the foreign DNA of the Jew that's not like the Jew. Yeah, like, and the same way there's nothing inherent about a Somalian born person that is like, that's not what I'm saying. It's not like a DNA flesh and blood question. It's like a cultural historical question. And.

Like in this case, I think it's possible that there is a cultural historical framing of some of these Somalian immigrants that is producing a negative outcome. And like, I don't like we should be able to talk about that. Like, and when I read this quote from the Somali American expert in Somali studies saying this, I was like, oh, yeah, duh. Like, that makes total sense. But also, if, like, that was a white guy who was, you know, teaching at, like, a conservative Christian college, he would be absolutely destroyed for the exact same quote and accused of racism. And all this stuff, which, by the way, is what happened in Minnesota, is that, like, a lot of the people who are raising the flags about this fraud were getting accused of and sued for racism and discrimination against small immigrants, and then the whole thing turned out to be true. So, like, I just. It's really frustrating. And this is like another, you know, in a weird, circular way, it's one of those things that makes me frustrated with the Trump administration is like, they have to be so.

Trollish and gross and vile and racist and whatever. Like, they have to do the thing at, like, a hundred. And just, like, we're getting all these Somalis out. They don't, you know, like, demonize the whole group in a way that makes, like, an actual legitimate criticism more vulnerable to attack. Because now I'm just enabling the Trump administration, whatever, you know, grossness, raciness, racism, xenophobia, et cetera, et cetera, when, like, I think I'm standing on pretty solid ground.

So it's hard, it's frustrating. And I thought Will did a great job navigating it. I'm glad he wrote the take, because honestly, if anything, I think I would have gone a little bit further than he did in criticism of the Somali political leaders and community in Minnesota who denied. Who accused people of bringing this stuff to light of being racist and xenophobic, who, I don't think, like, Representative Alon Omar, have not taken responsibility for, like, their role as leaders in the community. And this was something I said to Dan was like, you know, if. If. If I. I go to synagogue in South Philly, if it came out that there were, like, dozens of families in my synagogue in South Philadelphia who were participating in some massive fraud scheme, say, like, I don't know, the synagogue was raising money for something and then actually pocketing all that cash, and that was my community, my synagogue, I would feel a responsibility to take even if I wasn't participating in it. I wouldn't accuse people of being anti Semites for getting pissed at us about that, or I wouldn't accuse someone of being an anti Semite for getting pissed at me about it because I was a member of the community. It was like the Jewish community in Philadelphia did this horrible. And I would feel responsibility to, like, speak out and do something that would be part of the solution. I would criticize my own, like, I hope I would do that. So I'm like, I wish there was more of that coming out of this story. There's not. I mean, there's some, but there's not enough, in my opinion. And yeah, it's a frustrating one. And I'm still figuring out how to navigate it totally.

[Ari Weitzman]

Well, I think it's an interesting point about just to bring it down for a second to Somalia and start with something specific there to recall that people who are fleeing this country are doing so for a reason. This is one of the most unstable, dangerous countries in a region, the Horn of Africa and the sort of greater northeastern African Middle east area that is itself already a pretty unstable region. For years, dating back to, I think even the first Trump administration, if not earlier, travel advisories for US Tourists going abroad to Somalia were as high as they could be. The State Department listed it as a country that US Citizens should not travel to. The State Department's page right now about Somalia lists a series of dangerous issues saying that tourists should or any American in Somalia should avoid a small list of places such as high profile public events, hotels, clubs, restaurants, places of worship, schools, parks, shopping malls, markets, public transportation systems and checkpoints. So that's basically saying don't go there as clearly as they can. And Al Shabaab is littered all over. The State Department's description of dangerous groups that are committing murder, that are committing terrorist attacks on the airport, that are profligating sexual assault. And this page has said this back to the Biden administration. This is not some new thing. And this is just one group that is being brought popping up in this culture of instability that has proliferated in Somalia for decades. Knowing that and knowing that that's part of the reason why people are leaving Somalia and why they found purchase in a country that I would like to think provides a much more stable government and an ability to grow. And specifically Minnesota, which will say, and will actually has said, is one of the states that presents one of the largest social welfare nets in the country. That's something they. That's one of their cultural values in Minnesota. So there it is very reasonable to say the confluence of those two cultures creates a potential for something that we just saw to occur, where people come over from one country where they have a culture of not trusting their government, a culture that's more permissive of fraud, of getting away with what you can in order to survive to a country, to a state in particular, that has a culture of trying to support with services more and is more trusting. And in a context post George Floyd, where.

Being suspicious about a group looks really, really bad. And reading between the lines, and this was something that we even quoted one of the state senators in Minnesota saying was that there is a culture where, or sorry, a member of the prosecutor's office, that if you were to look into this in 2020 or 2021 in Minnesota, your career may have ended because it looks bad. The optics of looking into a Somali community during the post George Floyd era would have opened you up to allegations of racism that could have ended your career in Minnesota. So those two things together creates this big opportunity. And to your point, we aren't talking about race. We're talking about the confluence of cultures that is similar. I'd want to step on this landmine and immediately step back off. But that's similar to me to the way that we talk about the relationship between race and or between sex and gender, which is there are some biological markers that are determinant factors. And then there's a gulf between that that's interconnected, but of sizable gulf between that and the way that we culturally think about gender roles and gender construction. If that's one of the tenets that people say on the left, it holds true here. People might have phenotypes that look similar that are coming from Somalia, but those aren't the determining factors in cultural things that we then carry with us no matter where we're from. So that's part of the story here too, and I think we'll cover that. He was really brief when he did so. He was succinct. He talked about how that confluence of opportunity, of dangerous fraud opportunity exists. And it's something that Minnesota has to reckon with now and then wanted to move forward with to his conclusion that I thought was a really good one of look, we have to be able to talk about these things and admit that there's a problem here before we have any chance of reaching a solution. Because one of these solutions can't be these people in quotes are the problem and we have to throw them out. And the solution cannot be, you cannot allege any problems that are more common in one group or another because that's racist. We have to talk about these issues as we see them in neutral tones before we can do anything about them.

[Isaac Saul]

We'll be right back after this quick break.

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[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean I, there's like this thing that happens in these conversations, I feel like where every like culture, cultural differences have to be flattened. It's like if you're, if you accept that there are differences, then.

It'S a dog whistle for racism or a dog whistle for xenophobia. And then the same people who say that.

Same.

Person'S perspective comes out in a way. Two days before when we cover the Afghan shooter, where I see comments on our articles like, oh, you know, he's an Afghan who immigrated here and ended up killing somebody in a mass shooting. Like it seems like he's assimilating to American culture just fine. Cause that's like a very American thing to do. I'm like, okay, so like you're capable of seeing that there is like an American, which I agree with by the way. There's like an American cultural deficiency of violence, of grievance based violence in our country. That's like, that is actually something I think is a defining characteristic of American culture. There are things about American culture that I absolutely love, you know, and people love different things about American culture for different reasons. Like I love being like loud and boisterous and I love you know, sports.

[Ari Weitzman]

Fighting your raccoons in your backyard.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and like, and, and I love like the cultural intersections and pluralism and freedom of speech and like these things that I feel like are really core tenants and cultural components. Like I love Hollywood and like big badass movies and like ultimate experiences or experiments and like, you know, there's all these things that are like that I feel like are just like American in a really cool, awesome, fun, big, loud and proud way. And then there are like American cultural things that I think are deficiencies. Like I would put one like grievance based violence.

We're perfectly capable of doing that when we talk about American culture. But if I say like, oh like the Somalian food and history is so rich and incredible and all this are beautiful. But like a cultural deficiency is that there's like tons of, you know, leeway towards government fraud and like these kinds of schemes. And this is something that's like culturally ingratiated in Somalia. It's like that's xenophobic all of a sudden. Like, no, we can like, let's just have the conversation, let's just talk about it. It's so, it's just like this. Yeah, it's so frustrating. This is like the environment that we have to operate in. And by the way, again, it makes it really, really hard to find a solution, to talk about an honest solution, to find an honest solution. Like, it just does. It's like, you know, I, again, I would hope that if there was something like this impacting my community, I would want to step out and be a leader and say like, this is wrong, we need to do something about this, this is a problem, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, in fact, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm like building up the argument in my own head. But I think I kind of did that with the Zionism stuff. Like I am somebody who came into the war in Gaza as a self identified Zionist and because I saw things that did not align with my value system happen. Since October 7th, I've been very, very, very critical of the Zionist movement and of Israel. Like I'm policing my own in my way now. I didn't do it the way everybody wanted me to and whatever else. But like to me that's like what it means to participate in this, like in these cultural identifiable groups. Like you have to be there in the good and be there in the bad. So you know, like when I see the way Representative Ilana Omar is reacting to this stuff and just like there's no accountability, no ownership of the issue, no, no, like push towards the community. There's just like Trump xenophobic, orange man, bad. It's like I have a hard Time getting on board with that.

[Ari Weitzman]

And I.

[Isaac Saul]

And I think there's totally inbounds criticisms that can be leveled against members of the Somali community in Minnesota who participated in this. I think it was a thing that happened at scale. I think a lot of people were involved. I think it's like an issue that needs to be rooted out, and it's okay to talk about how to do that. And what about, you know, the. The background of this immigrant community might have made them more susceptible to something like this. To me, that's all inbound stuff. And I find it really frustrating that we're, like, not allowed to have the conversation about. And I recognize that part of that is because there is genuine racism and xenophobia coming from this administration towards the Somali community, which I think is extremely harmful, not just because it makes my job harder, but primarily because it's bad to be racist and xenophobic and judgmental towards entire groups of people for the sins of the few. All right, that's it. I don't want to spend more time on this than we have. Um, we've been at it for a little bit. I've been at it for a while, though. Ari joined me. Yeah, you just got here, so you're fine.

[Ari Weitzman]

I got so much more to say.

[Isaac Saul]

I know, but I'm gonna have to cut you off. I'm sorry, my friend. Um, we're without our. Our beloved Camille Foster this week too.

[Ari Weitzman]

So I missed such an opportunity to fill more space. Love you, Camille.

[Isaac Saul]

I know my guy loves adding a.

[Ari Weitzman]

Couple words to his statements all the time.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, we had a moment where Camille would just shut up. He wasn't even here for a minute. We'd have to listen to his 30 minute monologues. And then Ari doesn't show, and I'm stuck with Lydia Moynihan, who had an episode. Awesome. But now we've got to go, so, yeah, we're going to get into the grievances, just like the old days, just the two of us. John, you can play the music, man.

[Lydia Moynihan]

The airing of grievances.

[Isaac Saul]

Between you and me, I think your country is placing a lot of importance on shoe removal. Ari, I feel like your. Your grievance has to be why you're late today, right? I'm particularly deceived. We'll let you go first.

[Ari Weitzman]

I think it's just, like, a confluence of little things right now. So starting with. I would go back to, like, two weeks ago.

[Isaac Saul]

I'm gonna fill up my water and settle in.

[Ari Weitzman]

Yeah, go for it. I, uh. Going back A couple weeks ago, I tried to schedule an appointment to get my winter tires on, and it was too late. So I scheduled it online with a place that was accepting online appointments, which I know now and should have known at the time was a giant red flag. If you call a couple places and they say they were booked for a couple weeks, and then there's some other location that's like, yeah, fill it out online vacancies next day, no problem. And then I go there last week, bright and early. First thing, drop the car off, wait all day for it, go back at the end of the day to pick it up, and they haven't gotten to it. Not only that, but it's like behind three other things in the pile, so they weren't even close to getting to it. So I don't have winter tires on. The two times that I've left the house for big trips, like, to town this week, it snowed just during those times. So now that I'm home, I see the skies have cleared up and the weather's good. But going out this morning, between then and now, we've had, I think, six inches of snowfall. So having to go out and start the car up and shovel it out and then try not to fishtail going up and down the mountain road, which you've been on now, so you know it's not the safest thing to do.

[Isaac Saul]

That road is not a joke. That's. That's a real road.

[Ari Weitzman]

It's a real road. Gravel dirt road, 1,200ft in elevation and 2 miles. So you just got to be careful on it when it's snowing. And without snow tires, it's a little bit harder. The other thing that I did when I left the house earlier this week for a big appointment in the snow again, was get a remote starter installed. That was my early Christmas present to my wife. She, and very reasonably, doesn't like turning the car on and waiting for it to heat up and then having to go when it's cold out. So have the remote starter. It has this design that makes sense when you think about it, but is annoying where you turn the car on remotely and it starts.

And when that happens, what it does is it locks the doors so that nobody can just get in your car and go. Nobody includes yourself. So remote start the car, go out. The thing that you do to unlock the doors is hit the unlock button. That is the same button that turns the car off with the remote starter. So you turn the car off, go back in. I did that this morning. Then, like, grab my snow, like, shovel brush to get the snow off. When I did that, my elbow hit the lock button again, so I locked the keys in. That meant I had to go get the spare set of keys. That only took a couple minutes, but I did that. Ended up being, like, 10 minutes late for this appointment to get the dog's ACL looked at today for a consultation that made me miss my window, so I had to wait for an additional hour in order to get seen and eventually did. She's doing well. Doug's good right now, despite some limping and other issues she's dealt with all week, so was able to be okay getting her back through the snow without my snow tires, but made it home a mere 45 minutes late. Missed the Lydia Moynihan interview, which I was really hopeful that I could be a part of. And now here getting shit from you, reasonably so. But that was just an annoying couple of hours to have to go through. That all sort of, like, met together in this miasma of snowy annoyance, which, like, the little kick on top of it is. It's. It is so beautiful right now with, like, the fresh snow on the ground and the.

[Isaac Saul]

I'm so jealous.

[Ari Weitzman]

Sun's coming out and, like, I'm mad about it. And that. That's, like, something that I wish I wasn't feeling. So hopefully that dissipates somewhat quickly.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, we've gotten nothing but, like, cold rain and sleet in Philadelphia. I'm, like, desperate for that first pretty layer of fresh powder. And last year it just never came. It just basically didn't snow all winter.

[Ari Weitzman]

Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

So I'm jealous of you for having tons of beautiful, fresh snow up there. Also, while we're on this topic, I need to address something. I. When you talked about Callie's leg injury a couple weeks ago, I made a.

[Ari Weitzman]

She's trying to jump clean right now. Doing some damage control.

[Isaac Saul]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm addressing the haters out there. I made a. I thought a kind of funny joke about how we're treating dogs more and more, I think I said, like, what's next? We're going to start giving DUIs out to dogs or something like that. Like, now they get ACL surgeries. But yeah, there were some commenters on Reddit not happy about that. There was a lot of chatter about the callousness of my commentary on your dog when you were clearly upset. So just to set the record straight, I have known Callie the dog since she was a mere puppet, and I love her Dearly. And I care a lot about Callie and I want the best for her. She's a. I've watched her entire life and I know how much she means to you. So nobody out there. Just one joke. Doesn't mean I don't care about the dog. All right? Me and Callie are buds. She loves me, I love her. We have a long. How old is she now? 15 or 12?

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11.

[Isaac Saul]

11.

[Ari Weitzman]

11.

[Isaac Saul]

Okay. Yeah. I thought she was 12. Excuse me.

[Ari Weitzman]

Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

Nope.

[Ari Weitzman]

Yeah, I got her the. I think the spring or the summer before. Right before you left for Israel. So that's how you can remember.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. There you go. 2024 or 2014. Sorry. So I have an 11 year relationship with Callie, so everybody relax. Just a joke, all right? I love dogs. Love Callie. All right, well, I'm sorry to hear about your messy morning. I miss you in the Lydia Moynihan interview. I wish you were there. I know you would have had some good questions for her. But I'll be curious to see what you think when you. You get to listen to it.

My grievance this week is way more straightforward than yours because it doesn't involve a cascading, like 12 different events that just screwed up your day.

We had a stomach flu virus thing just run rampant through our house this week. Maybe it could have been food poisoning.

Part of the grievance is. How do I know? You can't really tell. There's. I guess there's like, stomach bugs are quick 24 hour. Food poisoning is often quick 24 hour.

[Ari Weitzman]

There's hysteria recall with some deli meats this week.

[Isaac Saul]

I don't know if that's no deli meats, though. One of the things that we can't solve is that both Phoebe and I got it. But Omri appears to have been fine. Knock on wood. I really hope he doesn't get this. Phoebe was puking for like 24 hours straight. So this would be like danger zone thing if. If the baby got it. But it made us think that maybe it was food poisoning. And the only thing that we ate that the baby didn't was we spent a week eating this chili that Phoebe had made that's in the fridge. We're taking out, we're reheating, we're leaving out. Whatever. Maybe it was.

[Ari Weitzman]

I know how to have a relationship with a bowl of chili in the fridge. I get it.

[Isaac Saul]

A huge Dutch oven full of chili. Yeah, we've just been crushing that all week and then. But also, I gave a little bit of that to Omri just Like, on, like, day three. Because Phoebe told me that she thought it was too spicy for him. And I said, I don't think it's too spicy for him. And then I gave him a bite of the chili and he just immediately starts shoving his hands in his mouth, crying. I'm like, oh, my God, I just tortured the baby. It was way too spicy for him. He hated it. Started, like, shoving yogurt in his mouth.

Yeah. So anyway, we got whatever this thing was. Stomach bug flu.

Chili food poisoning that has just made the last 48 hours hell. Lots of debate in our house about what's worse, nausea, itch, or headache. Which of those three would you like? Phoebe and I have been really going back and forth about this.

Definite take.

[Ari Weitzman]

But, yeah, you go.

[Isaac Saul]

I mean, my definite take is itch. I don't think it's even close, honestly. Like, I'll take nausea or headache over itch. Like, extreme itch any day of the week. I think itch is the worst. Um, I say that as somebody who had a recent run in with a horrific, like, gym pool born rash that, like, I mean, it was debilitating. Like, can't sleep, can't move, can't focus on anything else. But the itch for, like, four or five days.

Nausea, to me, is worse than headache, but both of them suck. But I would put headache. Like, I could navigate a headache the most. Nausea is, like, also debilitating. I mean, the last 24 hours were, like, terrible. It's like you really. You can't focus. Go ahead. What's your definitive take? I'd like to hear some of that.

[Ari Weitzman]

It's nausea. Definitely, it's nausea. Like, I'm agreeing with you that you can operate with headache, but the. The idea that itch is worse than an experience where, like, you cannot feel comfortable with your gut, like, your guts are upturning you so much that you can't, like, even feel balanced. And then periodically so much so that you have to retch, which is, I think, one of the most uncomfortable bodily experiences that humans go through is so much worse than, like, a thing that feels uncomfortable that will, like, annoy you and nag, nag, nag constantly, but that you can get some momentary relief from with, like, a balm and by scratching. Like, that's just not at all in the same ballpark.

[Isaac Saul]

To me, I would just say that you haven't experienced real itch. If that's what you think, then maybe.

[Ari Weitzman]

You haven't experienced real nausea.

[Isaac Saul]

I've puked, which, like, that's peak of Nausea is like you've hit the ceiling.

[Ari Weitzman]

No, it's not. Peak of nausea. I think that's like the thing that happens when you're nauseous. But peak nausea is like you are so upturned that your head's spinning, you feel dehydrated as well as hungry as well as you can't think of the thought of food at the same time, and your guts are rocking you constantly.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, maybe I would amend it to say.

I have not had nausea induced by illness. I've had nausea induced by drinking. That is what you've described where, like, head spinning, can't stop being dizzy, stomach upturn, life, you can't function. But from food poisoning, stomach virus, whatever. I've had the nausea. That's debilitating. But, yeah, I honestly think I might take it over my most recent itch experience.

But, yes, Phoebe agrees with you. For what it's worth, she was definite. She was like, I've had itch and.

I choose itch over nausea.

[Ari Weitzman]

I mean, as somebody who respects you greatly, Isaac, I've always thought Phoebe was smarter. So that makes sense.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, that's true. I think she is, too. And now she's a lawyer, so I lose every argument.

[Ari Weitzman]

Yeah, you're done.

[Isaac Saul]

It's terrible. All right, well, Ari, it was good to have you. I wish you were here for the full hour and a half, but I'll take 30 minutes. And a big thanks again to Lydia Moynihan for coming on the show. We're definitely going to have her back. It was a fun convo. Thank you guys for listening, and we'll.

[Ari Weitzman]

See you soon next time.

[Isaac Saul]

Our executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our executive producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by managing editor Ari Weitzman with senior editor Will Kbach and associate editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead, Bailey Saul, Lindsay Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tango and to sign up for a membership, please visit our [e-mail].

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

So good, so good, so good.

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