The 3rd Annual Valentine's Day Special featuring Isaac, Phoebe, and a very special (and tiny) guest.

Summary

Tangle Podcast Episode Summary: The 3rd Annual Valentine's Day Special Release Date: February 14, 2025

Hosts: Isaac Saul and Phoebe Padgett
Special Guest: Their newborn son, Omri Fuller Saul

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1. Introduction

In the heartwarming third annual Valentine's Day episode of Tangle, Isaac Saul and his wife Phoebe Padgett open up about their journey into parenthood. Balancing personal milestones with professional insights, the couple delves deep into the complexities of being new parents, the challenges of paternity and maternity leave, and their evolving political perspectives shaped by their experiences.

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2. Becoming Parents: Initial Reactions and Adjustments

The episode kicks off with the joyful introduction of their three-week-old baby, Omri. Isaac shares the overwhelming love he feels for his newborn, while Phoebe discusses the profound changes motherhood has brought into her life.

Isaac Saul [03:05]:
"This is straight bourbon. This is the good stuff."

Phoebe Padgett [05:25]:
"It's trying to figure out, or trying to, like, get to know who I am in this role."

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3. Maternity and Paternity Leave: Challenges and Reflections

Phoebe provides an intimate look into her maternity leave from law school, highlighting the absence of formal support systems and the pressure to balance academics with motherhood. Isaac reflects on his role during Phoebe's leave, describing himself as "the intern while your wife is the CEO," emphasizing the shift in household dynamics.

Isaac Saul [08:01]:
"There's so much downtime. That is probably like the thing I didn't expect."

Phoebe Padgett [10:01]:
"I've never been a mother before. It's hard to know how much to attach to this version of myself."

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4. Impact on Personal and Professional Lives

The couple delves into how their new roles as parents have reshaped their identities and daily routines. Phoebe grapples with feelings of lost independence and the guilt of desiring personal time, while Isaac struggles to disconnect from work, highlighting the intricate balance between professional responsibilities and family life.

Phoebe Padgett [16:05]:
"I miss that, like, selfish thing that I got to give to myself."

Isaac Saul [41:48]:
"I want some sort of, like, policy or cultural perspective that acknowledges that and grapples with that."

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5. Policy Perspectives: Paternity Leave and Beyond

Isaac shares his evolving stance on paternity leave, advocating for more generous and flexible policies. He discusses the high cost of childcare in the U.S. and contrasts it with policies in other developed nations, expressing a commitment to offering unlimited paternity leave within his own company, Tangle.

Isaac Saul [20:29]:
"For the rest of my time, I'm going to give people unlimited paternity leave."

Phoebe Padgett [32:01]:
"It may start and it may be really brutal... That's scary."

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6. Abortion Debate: Personal Reflections and Political Views

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to Isaac's reflections on abortion, influenced by their pregnancy and impending parenthood. He discusses the tension between pro-choice and pro-life perspectives, acknowledging the deep emotional and physical connections involved in pregnancy.

Isaac Saul [59:52]:
"I'm definitely more on the pro-choice side... It's a dangerous thing to happen."

Phoebe Padgett [73:20]:
"The baby was here and we changed some diapers and had a meal... it's so personal."

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7. Phoebe’s Career as a Public Defender: Experiences and Challenges

Phoebe offers insights into her role as a public defender in Philadelphia, managing early hearings and advocating for clients facing drug-related charges. She emphasizes the importance of upholding constitutional rights, regardless of personal feelings about a client's guilt.

Phoebe Padgett [91:42]:
"My job is to advocate for the person who can't afford it. It doesn't matter if they're guilty or not."

Isaac Saul [96:10]:
"Don't you rather have a system where a guilty man goes free than an innocent man is locked up?"
Phoebe Padgett [96:35]:
"Most Americans want the state to have to prove beyond doubt that you're guilty before stripping you of your liberties."

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8. Closing Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Isaac and Phoebe express their gratitude to their listeners and reflect on the profound journey they've embarked upon. They anticipate future discussions on how parenthood continues to shape their political and personal outlooks, promising insightful content upon their return from paternity leave.

Isaac Saul [105:11]:
"I miss writing every day. I'm excited to come back and share more with the Tangle community."

Phoebe Padgett [105:13]:
"We love you back. Say goodbye, Omri."

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Notable Quotes:

• Isaac Saul [41:48]:
  "I want some sort of, like, policy or cultural perspective that acknowledges that and grapples with that."

• Phoebe Padgett [86:58]:
  "Working as a public defender is heavy work. I wasn't sure I could handle it."

• Isaac Saul [75:29]:
  "Watching you give birth was like making contact with a different dimension."

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This episode offers a candid and heartfelt exploration of the intersection between personal life changes and broader political beliefs, providing listeners with a nuanced perspective on modern parenthood and its implications on societal policies.

Transcript

[Isaac Saul]

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[Phoebe Padgett]

We got a fuss. We got a fuss.

[Paige Desorba]

Baby.

[Isaac Saul]

Is he awake? You want to say hi to the world, Omri? Hey. Hi, bud.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Foreign.

[Isaac Saul]

Good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle podcast, a place where you typically get politics news, a little bit of the left and the right. And my take. But today it is episode. I guess this is the third time we've done this. The three year anniversary of our Valentine's Day podcast. Our first Valentine's Day podcast. And now our third year doing a Valentine's Day podcast. So a little bit different. I'm Isaac Saul, your host, back in action, here with my beautiful wife, Phoebe Padgett. Phoebe, how are you doing?

[Phoebe Padgett]

Oh, I'm really tired.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. Well, first of all, cheers.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Cheers. This is my first hard alcohol in nine months.

[Isaac Saul]

That's the sound of Phoebe drinking her first bourbon since giving birth to our first child.

[Phoebe Padgett]

No, since getting pregnant.

[Isaac Saul]

Correct. Right. Wow. God, that's ten months. Really?

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

You had a Bloody Mary?

[Phoebe Padgett]

I. Yeah. Oh, I did.

[Isaac Saul]

You had one Bloody Mary.

[Phoebe Padgett]

That's. But also after I gave birth.

[Isaac Saul]

But this is straight bourbon. This is the good stuff. There's so much to talk about. I mean, life's a little different now. We're speaking a little softly because our sweet baby boy, our three three week old baby boy. Omri Fuller. Saul for the inquiring minds. I've gotten a lot of emails, people asking what his name is, which I'm gonna disclose at some point. I feel weird. I don't know how to approach the.

[Phoebe Padgett]

That's him.

[Isaac Saul]

Good God, if he wakes up right now.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Go back to sleep, pal.

[Isaac Saul]

Go back to sleep. We'll have to bring him on. I'll have to hold him for the entire show if he does this.

[Phoebe Padgett]

No, realistically, I'll have to breastfee.

[Isaac Saul]

There's a lot to talk about. I'm interested to hear your reflections. We like have almost. It feels weirdly like we haven't had any time to really talk. I mean, we've talked a lot about the last few weeks and everything, but it's like, it's such a shock and it's so like, I feel. I really, truly feel like the last few weeks have been a total blur, I guess. How would you say. Maybe we start with how would you say maternity and paternity leave are going. I'm curious to hear what it's been like for you to be off from school and then I can talk a little bit about what it's been like to be off from tangle. But. Yeah, what's it been like for you to be off from. You have one semester left of law school and you are currently taking leave from that.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah, kind of. I mean, I'm taking leave, but I'm also not like there is no maternity leave at school unless you just don't want to graduate. So I'm just not going to class and hoping that I can get everything done in time to graduate. So I think like that's. I mean, I guess in some ways, like my semester, my fall semester ended early December and I've only recently kind of started gently doing work again. And so it's weirdly been the longest break I've had not doing anything either school or law related in a while. Like, I guess, you know, over the summer I'm working and doing internships and all of that. But it's like the first time I've had a considerable break basically since I graduated undergrad. But it's like not a break because we had a whole baby.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, he's here, he's here.

[Phoebe Padgett]

So, yeah, I think, I think it's going, oh, he's squeaking.

[Isaac Saul]

I wonder if that people will be able to hear that.

[Phoebe Padgett]

I hope. I think it's gone. I don't Know, it's weird. It's really insane to be doing something that feels very total and very much like, not. Not anything that I have been doing in my life. Like, I think that's one of the things that's been really hard for me is feeling like the person that I've been and that I am and that I really enjoy has really not been a part of my life for these last four weeks. So it's trying to figure out, or trying to, like, get to know as, like, Hokie and whatever is that is, like, who I am in this role. Because it's like, I've never been a mother before. I've never had a child. It's hard to know how much to attach to, like, this version of myself because everything feels so transitory where it's like the mother that I am now is not the mother that I'm gonna be in four weeks. So it's like, yeah, there's part of me that feels very much like I don't know who I am and I don't know like, how much, like, how much to figure out who I am right now and how much just to, like, wait and see if that makes sense.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, no, it's really. It's really complicated, I feel. So, first of all, I think your experience is just, like, so different than mine. Yeah. I mean, being the one to go through pregnancy physically and then give birth. And I'm, you know, I've. I've talked about this a few times, but my. Our friend Jody Avargan, who's a pretty well known podcast producer himself, he said to me, like, be ready to be the intern and your wife is the CEO. Like, the first few weeks, that's just kind of how it is. And I didn't really know what he meant, but I think it held up as a piece of advice because I feel like I'm watching you be a mom in a lot of ways and, like, change and really be impacted in really, like, profound different ways. While I feel like I have this additional thing on my to do list every day, which is like, take care of you, take care of the baby. Like, change the diaper, bring you water, make it. Make a meal.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

Like, I feel busy and at the same time bored. Like, there's so much downtime. That is probably like, the thing I didn't expect. In retrospect, I think if I could go, I mean, I guess you always. This is always the best time to take paternity leave, but it's almost like I could see a case for the real paternity leave should be in three months or something. Not now, because I just have so much free time. I've just ended up, you know, on Twitter or writing or whatever. But I feel like I'm watching this baby have, like, this huge, profound impact on you as a person. And I am. It by proxy impacts me because we're so bonded. And I mean, like, obviously, he's impacting me, but it's like. It's just so different to be me in the scenario.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

Like, I. I'm playing with a doll kind of. No, I mean, I'm like, you hear that? You hear him fussing, and I'm. My thought is like, oh, maybe I'll pick him up and, like, rock him a little bit and give him a kiss. And your thought is like, oh, he needs my body to live and survive. And there's just, like, a different. It's a genuinely. I mean, you know, it's like, he sounds so stupid to say, like, you know it, but I've definitely been impacted by experiencing how different our experiences are. It gives me a newfound respect for sort of the just, like, inherent disparity in having a child that moms and dads experience. Experience. And there's, like, there's, you know, there's nothing, like, bad or wrong about that. It's difficult and challenging. I don't mean to say that in, like, a. We have to fix this, like, broken thing. It's just, like, we need to start from the reality like, that that's how it is, because it is so different for us, I think.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Well, I think this is all kind of through the lens of I'm breastfeeding, which also changes that. Like, I think if we were doing, like, breastfeeding and formula feeding or breastfeeding and bottle feeding also right now, like, I think the reality is, like, we've made a choice, and, like, I was able to. To follow through. And then what I wanted with. I wanted to breastfeed, and my body allowed that. And that. That does, like, I think, also hugely impact because it's like, you can't feed him.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah.

[Phoebe Padgett]

And he needs to eat all the time. And, like, that's how he soothes, and that's how he bonds with me in some senses. So it's like, I think that also makes a big difference in, like, that was the decision that we made, and, like, that was able to happen just kind of based on luck with my body that that worked. Yeah. So I feel like that that's also different where it's like, there's a little bit of nuance. It's not just like, the heat, the mom, you know, it's like, I'd be curious if.

[Isaac Saul]

How it would be different if you weren't breastfeeding. I will say I have gotten pretty good at putting him to sleep. Yeah, that's a good. I have. When he. I. I am totally convinced that if he can smell you or sense your presence, that he will just. That it's just impossible for him to go down. But I. I do feel like I was expecting my, like, primary baby care role thing to be just changing tons of diapers. And I feel like in the first three weeks, I've been sort of the emergency lever of, like, if he can't go to sleep or he doesn't fall asleep after feeding or whatever. I've had a little bit of a good touch just being able to get him down, which I think is literally nothing but persistence. You just have to not give up is basically like, you just have to keep doing the same thing over and over again until he. I, like, I.

[Phoebe Padgett]

He submits.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. I go into that experience with the mindset of, like, I'm going to battle with this baby and I'm going to win. And, like, I'm just looking and I'm just saying, just, shh. Just give up, bud. Like, you are not gonna win. He's like, trying to keep his eyes open, and I'm rocking him and shushing him, and then finally he goes. But yeah, I. That's fair. That the breastfeeding thing is, like, a big variable in that I still just like. I mean, even just the first few weeks, like, the recovery, like, you gave birth, so.

[Phoebe Padgett]

You're right. Yeah, I know.

[Isaac Saul]

I'm just saying, like, the physical. The physical element of it to. On top of, like, this tangible baby we have to take care of and keep alive and whatever. It's like, you are also going through now a whole other subset of massive physical changes while that's happening that I'm not like, the postpartum hormone stuff and just like, your body recovering and all of a sudden, like, you're losing tons of weight and you're healing from giving birth and all this stuff. It's like, yeah, it's just. It's very different. And I don't really know. Sometimes I feel a little bit. I definitely feel, like, some level of guilt about that. Like, I don't know what to do about it. I guess it's like I want to fix it somehow, but there's kind of just no way, Like, I just, I guess I imagine in my brain that that all evens out over time. Like, that eventually as the baby gets older, the responsibility becomes a bit more balanced between us. But I don't know.

[Phoebe Padgett]

I mean, I mean, hopefully. Yeah. I mean, I hope. I hope so. I hope it's not always like this. But. Yeah, I mean, I think that that's. I think I agree that it really is, like, disparate between us right now. I think there's just, like, a lot that he needs from me. And I think I find myself, like, getting resentful. Like, we, like, this kind of goes into the paternity thing. Like, we had a talk the other day because you had kind of like soft re. Entered work very quickly, shall I say? No, no, no.

[Isaac Saul]

That's a. I don't know. I object to that framing.

[Phoebe Padgett]

I'm sure you do, but you also, you know, are sick in the head. But you had, like, you had. You were answering emails and you were this and you were writing things and you were on Twitter and you were responding and you were sending notes to employees and stuff like that. And I found myself one kind of being resentful just because it was frustrating in moments when, like, I needed things to see you already back online and being like, it's not. That's not the point of this period of time.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah.

[Phoebe Padgett]

And then also there was part of me that was just jealous where I was like, he's returned to his world in a way that, like, I can't. And, like, both kind of, like, attention wise, I can't. Energy wise, I don't think I would be very functional right now. And I think there's part of me that's just like, well, that's. That's not fair. You get to access this part of you that's the, like, selfish part of you. Like, and I mean that. I don't mean selfish in a negative way. I mean that, like, your life for you. And I think, like, one of the hardest things about maternity or motherhood right so far has been the, like, I don't get to be selfish for me right now. And there's guilt in even feeling sad about that. Like, there's guilt in. In wanting to be just my own because you've got this, like, beautiful little baby who needs me. And, like, what a, like, blessing and a miracle it is that we have this baby and that he's healthy and that I'm healthy. And like, yeah, there's. There's guilt immediately for me when I miss my selfish, independent life and I Think, like, you know, I haven't been doing schoolwork, and I think there's some people who are like, oh, that's great. You must feel great to have a break. But the reality is, like, I love school.

[Isaac Saul]

I think we're both sick in different ways.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah. And it's like, I loved that, and that was something that I did. Like, I just really. I really enjoy what I'm learning right now, and, like. And I think I've really enjoyed law school. And more than anything, I'm, like, just working hard for no reason is not very fulfilling for me. But I think, like, coming into law was maybe the first time potentially ever in my life where I was like, oh, I'm working really hard for something that I really care about and really want. And so it felt like this really kind of like, lovely, selfish endeavor for me where I'm like, I'm doing this because I want to, because it's all about me. And the only person who this is for is me. And I felt, like, grateful and lucky and, like. I don't know, like, it felt like this, like, dessert for me to have this, like, amazingly enticing and challenging and fulfilling thing that was just because I wanted it.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. You never really had that.

[Phoebe Padgett]

No. And I think, like, I'd always had to split my time between things that I cared about and making money and this. And, like, we are in a situation where. Between the scholarship and your work and everything, I don't have to split my time right now. And. Or didn't. And suddenly, now we have this beautiful baby who needs me all the time, and there's part of me that's like, I miss. I miss that, like, selfish thing that I got to give to myself, and I'm. I'm afraid that I'm gonna lose it. And then I feel shitty that I'm thinking about that when I've got this little baby.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, I. I mean, I don't think you should feel shitty about that. I think it's so normal to curse on this podcast. Yeah. Some people don't like the cursing, and I try. No, it's okay. I try and limit it. I don't. I think I'm pro language, so some. There are some words that I think I go crazy. Yeah. Sometimes curse words feel necessary to me, but I don't do it excessively because I know many of our listeners prefer a little bit cleaner. I. I don't think you should feel crappy about that. I think you make a great sacrifice by deciding to become a mom, and there's just no way around it. Like, you. You're choosing to give up a big piece of your own personal pie. And I'm. I know that you would say that it's worth it, but feeling like it's worth it and it's not having any regrets and whatever doesn't mean you can't feel like, oh, I also miss this other previous version. I mean, you're. All this stuff you're saying, I see how it's impacting you a little bit. And then I also see our baby go to sleep for a nap, and you say that you miss him and you want him to wake up so you can spend two minutes with him. And it's like you can hold all those things at the same time, you know, where you're just overjoyed and totally blown away by this new thing we have to do and this child. And also feel like, oh, man. Like, I didn't realize how much independence I had before or how much. How easy it was to just do the thing for me before. And I feel that. I mean, I felt that the end of the first week, I was like, oh, I really had so much independence and freedom before that I didn't totally. You can't totally grasp or understand it until you feel the shift, like, the paradigm shift of having a kid. And I don't regret it at all or have any, obviously, or have any, like, misgivings about it. But I know, you know, that there, it'll bring up feelings of, I wish I didn't have to think about this extra. This extra layer or whatever. I'm curious. I guess we're three weeks. So Omri's now a little over three weeks old. Yeah, three weeks, two days, I guess. Is that right? It's Wednesday. Yeah, we're recording this on Wednesday, a couple days before the real Valentine's Day. There are a lot of companies, places in our country, at least, where you'd be going back to work right now.

[Phoebe Padgett]

I think that's sick.

[Isaac Saul]

I will. I. I feel we're going to talk a little bit about. I mean, I'm gonna write a long piece about just, you know, this is a tangle kind of political lens, like, how this experience has informed some of my views. And I know later in this podcast you and I are going to talk. I have it in my notes to make sure we talk a little bit about the abortion conversation, because I think we've both had really strong feelings about it and some different, some the same. But the paternity leave thing, I feel almost radicalized a little bit where I'm, I'm just. It's insane to me. I, I don't know what like the right governmental policy is, but as a boss, like somebody who h. Has my own company and has employees, I will. Has employees with children and has employees with children, I will. For the. My public pledge right now is that for the rest of my time, I'm going to give people unlimited paternity leave, especially women. And I'm just gonna say like, like minimum six, eight weeks, whatever it is, and just you can come back when you're ready and we can negotiate it. And I think most people aren't gonna be like, oh, I'm out for six months or a year or whatever, but.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Maybe, maybe they will if somebody did that.

[Isaac Saul]

I, I've. I feel like this, my early experience here has radicalized me to the point where I'm comfortable with that. I mean, Magdalena, while she was working full time for us. And I told her, I said, take as much time as you need even before I had this experience and knowing and just said kind of come back whenever. And Magdalena, like me, I think is sick in the head. And she started sort of dipping back into work after like four or five weeks. But she didn't. I don't think she really fully came back and was like totally all in for a couple months. But she had, you know, a husband who I think took some time off during that period and some help and experience. It was her second kid. But like, yeah, it is crazy to me and whatever. Every other developed country in the world is doing this differently than we are in the United States. And I, I am sort of a small government type person in a lot of ways. So I, I'm not advocating that like the federal government just like mandate certain things though. Again, the radicalization in me from this experience maybe makes me less opposed to that. But just four to six weeks is like a bare minimum.

[Phoebe Padgett]

I mean, four weeks for us is, is in whatever four days. Like.

[Isaac Saul]

And I feel like, I mean, I'm going to go back to work at the five week mark for real. But I feel like I could do that because of just our setup. Like, I work, I can work from home if I need to. We have some help. I'm financially in a place where I can pay for some help and I'm the dad.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Right. And I also like. But you also think that you're in a place to do that because we haven't done it yet.

[Isaac Saul]

Right.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Like the other part of it is like it may start and it may be really brutal. Like, because I think the other part that people don't. I mean, not that people don't think about it, but I think, like, the other half of this is like, the difference between maternity leave and paternity leave or, like, whatever support, partner, birth, whoever. In this dynamic, like, when you're the kind of like the main caregiver to this child, even if you have more time, if your partner or your spouse or whatever goes back to work, that's not good. Because all that is is like, you know, I remember talking about this with an old boss and they're like, oh, da, da, da, da, da. You'll get however long. But we think we'll give paternity leave probably like three weeks. And all I can think of is that what you're saying is that you're only going to give that woman three weeks of support or you're only going to give that partner three weeks of help, and then they're out of luck and either then they have to afford to pay for help or not, and then they're by themselves and hopefully they have family. But I mean, kind of outside from the sadness of like, that partner having to go back to work or that parent is like the person who's home with the kid, if someone gets to be home is just by themselves. And like, that is also just like, such a pressure that I think we don't, like, we think about it in terms of like, the child, but the other parent who's home or the caregiver, like, they are by themselves then. And it's like all you're saying is that, okay, at that point you're on your own. And like, that, that scares me. You know, like you saying you think that you will be able to go back to work because you work from home or whatever. But the reality is, if you're writing Tangle and you're recording your podcast or whatever and the baby is screaming, that's my job.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah.

[Phoebe Padgett]

And like, it's amazing that you'll be home in some senses, but in other senses, like, that could just make it more complicated. It could make it more resentful, like, resent filled, because you're not going to be able to respond to him. And so you'll be in the house and you'll hear him, but you're not going to actually have the time in certain portions of your day to do anything about it. And meanwhile, like, I'll be in the house unsupported for those periods of time. And hopefully, like, we find a balance there, but it's different. Like, you know, it's even in the flexibility that you've designed in a company that you own. It still leaves me to be like at the whim of this baby with no support for periods of time. Foreign.

[Isaac Saul]

We'Ll be right back after this quick commercial break.

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[Isaac Saul]

I'm very interested. I mean, one of the things that I'm definitely going to do now after having this experience is generally speaking, I think people who this is changing now in our current American political dynamic. But generally speaking, in the past, I think most of the people who have kind of opposed paternity leave or mandatory paternity leave or extended paternity leave policies have come from the right. They've been conservatives, this sort of J.D. vance rising conservative. And even like these figures like Elon Musk who are coming in, they're talking A big game about being really pro family and wanting to embrace some of these policies a lot of Republicans supported like the child taxcare credit, stuff like that. I'm really curious. I mean, and I get their, their opposition is not about, I think the parental side of it. It's like the big government spending side of it. I am very interested to seek out some conversations with people who share the view that we don't need better paternity leave policies or whatever and also have had kids to hear about their experience and like how they've come to that conclusion. Because I feel like what you're saying even, even in a situation like a good situation like ours are really good situation pregnancy, we wanted, we're married, we have family support. We're, you know, we are living in the same house, we have money. Like I have the flexibility to decide what I want to do. Even with all healthy. We're both healthy. Like you had baby's healthy, baby's healthy. You had an uncomplicated birthday. Even with all that, it still feels daunting to just like make that re entry and that transition after a month or five weeks or whatever. And I think that's kind of what I'm feeling on the radicalization side is like imagining a single mom all living on $50,000 a year with two kids already one at home or whatever. Or just like, you know, people, a couple where both parents have short leave policies and need to go back to work and then they have to pay for childcare, daycare. I mean we're looking at daycares now in Philly. And it's insane. I mean it's, it's rent. It's 2500, $3000 a month for most of the places that we're looking at. You know, I mean we're talking about 40 grand a year close to. It's nuts. And so like we'll pay more for.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Daycare than I did for law school.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. And the cost of daycare will basically be like almost your entire salary as a public defender. It's like I said, I've. I definitely. There are certain things that I'm experiencing now that are like radicalizing is a strong word but really strongly impacting my view. And I don't know that the government thing is this like a government solution is necessary. What it necessarily what it should be. But from all I can do is like take care of my own at first, at least. And from my perspective, like from a company perspective, it makes me want to be a lot more pro family in really tangible ways as a boss and, you know, offering the kind of support that, like, my employees currently and future might need because. Yeah, it just. It feels really nuts for me.

[Phoebe Padgett]

It's hard. Like, I don't want to, like, generalize, but I think about. Yeah, like, those people who, like, are. I don't know, who don't think that we need better paternity maternity leave policies. Part of me, it's like, are those the people who can afford the help and who have the financial security to kind of, like, compensate for that so they don't need their jobs or whatever to kind of subsidize that for them? And then also, like, I'd be very interested in their understanding of the parenting roles. And, like, if there is. And I don't know, and maybe this is, like, really kind of ignorant or whatever, but if there is some kind of overarching, like, reinforcing of those classic gender roles where it's like, is that in those couples or in that dynamic, is it that the woman is actually not working or she has longer leave or she's decided to not work while the ba. You know, it's like, I'd be really interested to see what the parenting dynamics in those couples are for those people because it's. It's. Yeah. And maybe that's, like, not fair to kind of broad stroke it like that. But it's hard not to think that, like, there has to be.

[Isaac Saul]

I don't. I don't think it's not fair. I think. I think, like, there's just that it's. There's just a lot of people, a lot of relationships, a lot of men and women who are. That's the arrangement that they both want, and that's why they've, like, constructed their family that way. And that's totally fine. Like, I. I'm.

[Phoebe Padgett]

I don't mean that. I'm not. I don't mean that in any sort of. Like, I really don't mean it in a judgmental way. I'd be interested to know if that, like, if that dynamic is informing the decision for them.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. I mean, it would be way simpler if you weren't in school or obviously.

[Phoebe Padgett]

I mean, in some senses. In other senses, like, I think it forces you to take a greater hand in our. In the raising of our child. Because I can't do it. Like, I think there could be a world where, like, it would be simpler for you if I didn't work.

[Isaac Saul]

No, that's what I said. Yeah.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Oh, I thought you meant for us.

[Isaac Saul]

No, no. I'm saying it would be simpler for us and for me.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Right? It would not be simpler for us.

[Isaac Saul]

It would be simpler for me if you didn't work. Duh. Like, that would be. That would make like, like, I, I.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Right. But, but I guess, like, do you really, like. Simpler for you? In what sense? Because, like, wouldn't ultimately, like, I mean.

[Isaac Saul]

Think about, think about.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Can I finish?

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Like what? Like, I. As hard as it is, like, I think you also want to be deeply involved. And so, like, is it actually simpler if I work and you convince yourself it's okay to go back to work full time at three weeks? You know, like, is that good for you in the long term? Is that simpler? Is that better?

[Isaac Saul]

Maybe simpler. Maybe simpler is not the right word. I mean, I'm, I would say whatever. I don't know how. I am very enthusiastic and excited about being a father. And like, I'm. I'm like, let's sell Tango. I'll be a stay at home dad. I'm ready to do that. Like, it's just, it's for me.

[Phoebe Padgett]

But you don't, you don't actually.

[Isaac Saul]

I mean, I would go crazy if I did that, but it'd be fun for a couple months.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Well, you have a. You know, you're struggling. Currently, I'm struggling.

[Isaac Saul]

I think there are a few things that are making this really hard, this time period. Really hard for me, being away from Tangle. Primarily, it's that the Trump administration, I mean, Donald Trump literally got inaugurated the day our son was born. So it's been a fire hose of news. And, and that this is like, the first few weeks of any administration are always crazy. And I want to be in the trenches, like, covering that and bringing my analysis to that, whatever. And so it has been admittedly very hard for me to step away. And, you know, and it's like. And this is also my baby, and I'm watching my team, which they've done an excellent job, but, like, five and a half years, you do this thing every single day and then handing it off and like, oh, your baby.

[Phoebe Padgett]

You meant the company.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, I meant the company. Yeah.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Got it. Sorry.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, yeah, I meant tangle.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Okay, got it. Great.

[Isaac Saul]

I meant five and a half years. You have this baby and you, you give it up and you. Like, I'm watching other people operate it. And that's also really hard to take a back seat during that. I mean, again, I think the team has been doing an awesome job and it, in a lot of ways, it's been really fun to be a consumer of it. But especially on the writing side. It's just like every day I see things that I would have done differently or said differently or I think differently or feel differently, and I'm like, it's hard to let go of all that. The reason I say it'd be simpler to just answer the question, I guess, directly, is not because I think I'd be happier or something. I think there are a lot of scenarios where it would be more difficult. But it's just like we're. We are. We're having all these conversations about our future. We want you to graduate. You're supposed to graduate in May. So just like, even the next six months, I mean, we're planning. How are we going to structure our days? So I can do tangle in the morning, and then I can be dadding in the afternoon for stretches of periods so you can study and attend class and make sure you're caught up on work. And it's just like, there are. It just. It's just another ball in the air that you have, like, these career ambitions. Personally, for me, I find that incredibly attractive. I mean, it's like one of my favorite things about you is that you're ambitious and you're driven and, like, you want to work. I would not have it any other way. I also think knowing you as much as I do and loving you as much as I do, you would go insane if all you had was motherhood. I think, like, I feel like you are. I've seen what it's like when you have, like, a job that you're not that interested in or something that's like.

[Phoebe Padgett]

This feels like a faulty comparison.

[Isaac Saul]

I'm not saying the job is one to. One to the child. I'm saying, like, you, to me, you have, like, a certain. Like, a intellectual stimulation that you need. The happiest I've ever seen you is since you've been in school again, like law school or even in undergrad, when you were, like, taking classes that were challenging you a lot. And I think you're. I think your work as a lawyer is going to be really challenging and intellectually stimulating. I think that is what makes you happy. I think it's going to be really hard for you to go to work because I think you're going to want to be with the baby so much, and I'm interested to see how that goes. And next year, when we have this podcast, you'll be, like, four or five months into your job, and I'm sure the conversations can be really this conversation will be really interesting to listen to, and it'll be interesting to hear you talk about what it's been like going back to work. But I think having both the motherhood and the career ambitions is a good thing for you and like a healthy balance for you.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah, I mean, I think, like, I think that's true. I think for me that's very true. Yeah. But it, it makes it complicated for me and for you and for this, like the whole situation.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah.

[Phoebe Padgett]

That I, that I'm split.

[Isaac Saul]

I say all of that just to say that, like the traditional gender role, patriarchy, whatever you want to call it, like that, that, that formula, that setup succeeded and made sense for a long time for a reason. And I think it's because it works in a lot of. For a lot of couples, for a lot of dynamics. But I just. It also really doesn't work for a lot of couples and a lot of dynamics, which is why we have things like the feminist movement and all.

[Phoebe Padgett]

I think it really. It works for couples in the sense that, like, it works that someone makes the money, someone takes care of the kid, and we all go on. But I don't know that it works for many in. Or maybe it does, but I think there's a good portion of individuals that it doesn't work for. Even within the couple, if the couple's thriving. You know, it's like, I think that's different. I think there's, there's, there's difference between, like, the family unit is functioning and each person is happy.

[Isaac Saul]

I think there are millions and millions and millions of stay at home moms who are really happy with that arrangement.

[Phoebe Padgett]

I agree. I agree. I'm not saying that. Oh, I'm not saying that.

[Isaac Saul]

What are you saying? I'm hearing something different then.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Oh, yeah, no, no, I'm not saying that. That's, I'm not, I'm. I agree. I, I think that that's totally true. I just think that, like. Yeah. I don't know, maybe it was like a silly differentiation, but it's like, I think there's also people that could get grouped into that category who aren't, who are the stay at home parent who aren't necessarily as happy, but it keeps their family functioning in a really strong, healthy way.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Where it's like, maybe individually they're not as happy as they could be, but their family is healthy and thriving and like, that is the service that they're giving. Yeah. That's not, that's not to say. I'm not trying to Whatever. Say anything about stay at home moms?

[Isaac Saul]

No. No. I think I was hearing you say that there are people. There aren't many people who are in that situation, in the stay at home mom situation, that are happy. And you're saying that there's. That there are people who are in that situation. Even, like, the dad who's going to work, who's not happy with the arrangement. Right, Totally. That makes more sense.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. No, for sure. And I mean, I. Yeah, I don't know. I'm really curious to see what it's like for me, too. I mean, I. I have definitely struggled a bit in these first few weeks to just, like, go down to zero and, like, relax.

[Phoebe Padgett]

You have not. You have not. Not yet.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah.

[Phoebe Padgett]

And you will not.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, I had a really hard time and was basically incapable of totally disconnecting and, like, really just slowing down and being. Because it was just. I'm just so used to my days being so full of, like, oh, I have to do 9 million things. Whatever, whatever. And it was. It was hard. Like, it was anxiety inducing to just.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Be, like, doing one thing.

[Isaac Saul]

Doing one thing or doing nothing. Because then, like, the baby's sleeping and like, I do the chores to clean the house up and I bring you your water, your snack, and then we're, like, sitting there for two hours and like, that, like, I can't help but, oh, I wonder what's going on on Twitter. I check my email really quick and see a couple interesting headlines. And, like, I want. I want to read. I want to keep up, you know? So. I don't know. I feel like there's going to be weeks in the future where I'm. All I want is to take a week off and be with Omri and just like, I want this week away from work. But I feel. Yeah, weirdly, the days. Everybody says that thing. The days are long when the years are short. I feel like the days are so short. Short, like a total blur. Yeah, I. I don't know. I mean, maybe that expression will totally make sense to me in 20 years, because I've heard it from literally every parent I know that has older kids. But right now the days feel so I.

[Phoebe Padgett]

They feel like they fly.

[Isaac Saul]

I look up and it's like, tonight, like, 6:00 or. Yeah, it's already 6:30. I just. It blows my mind. Another day has gone by.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah. And, like, it leaves me feeling like, well, what have I done today? And, like, maybe that is also kind of part of the, like, shortness of it where I'm like I used to get so much done in a day and now, I mean I'm getting a lot done in that I'm keeping this baby alive and we're taking care of him. But I'm like, that's kind of one thing and maybe that's like what you're talking about, but it's, it, it does feel different to like look at my day and be like, I don't know what I did today. Like he slept and then I fed him and then he slept and then I fed him and then I fed myself and then I fed him. You know, it's like, yeah, I feel similar. Like the days are just super short and I think part of that for me is like I'll look back on the day and be like, how is the day done? I just, I haven't done anything or I haven't like. Or I just started it.

[Isaac Saul]

We also just, especially the last few days, we just had our first kind of back to back night of near sleeplessness. I think, man, the second one hits different on that. I don't know, you know, whatever. Three week old babies, you can't, there's no rhyme or reason but we are in, we're in that place where he just, you know, takes these beautiful three to four hour naps during the day. He's sleeping right now next to us and then we try to put him down at 8 o'clock for bedtime and it's like all hell breaks loose. And then just no more than a 30 to 40 minute interval of sleep from 9pm until 2 or 3am and then I put him down and he every 10 minutes is doing these insane like grunty cry active sleeper things or gassy things or whatever and I'm just can't sleep because I'm so nervous about him and sitting there and it's just like, all right now it's 6 o'clock and I've slept like an hour and a half and doing that back to back nights and then you sleep a little bit in the morning and then your day starts for real. Maybe it's 9 or 10 o'clock and you're just in this haze and it's like all of a sudden it's nighttime and it's over. Yeah, I feel like the days are absolutely flying by and we had my mom here visiting which was awesome. Giving, giving moms grandchildren is like, I've never seen them happier than they are with grandkids and, and it's just like I couldn't tell you what we did today, but she was here and the baby was here and we changed some diapers and we had a meal and now she's gone and now it's nighttime. On the topic of kind of like policy stuff, paternity leave, whatever. I think the other thing that hit me that I am now radicalized on as well is man, and this maybe is a government thing, mandatory child care slash birthing classes.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Why mandatory?

[Isaac Saul]

Every.

[Phoebe Padgett]

I think. No, take that. I mean people should go to birth classes. It's super helpful. But like that's. No, I, I don't, I don't think. I don't know.

[Isaac Saul]

We send, we put people into vehicles with more training than we send them home from a hospital with a baby.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah, but you can kill someone quicker with a vehicle.

[Isaac Saul]

You could kill a baby. We could have, we could have screwed this up a million different ways. It's insane. I don't, I didn't. I barely knew how to put the baby in the car seat when we left the hospital. I don't know anything about like what's normal breathing, what's normal sounds, when should he be awake, when should he be asleep, how often should he feed? We're just googling stuff and trusting, you know, these culty, like taking care of babies. People who are just feeding us in for like Instagram accounts and you know, paid services for Barons. I, I think it is bonkers. I think someone gets pregnant, there should be a free service. That's a week or a day even. We went to one eight hour birthing class or whatever it was. It was a full day birthing class. And I learned so much in that day that I did not know or understand about what labor was going to be like or what birth was going to be like. I don't know. I think it's insane that we don't have. There's no training or manual or it's just like.

[Phoebe Padgett]

But there is like we did, like, what are you proposing? Like we did it. We. We found the training also. Like, I'm sure that there are totally like free resources and I don't know what you're.

[Isaac Saul]

I think, I think, I think you're.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Just shocked at, at how little we know about raising a baby. I think that's just being a parent. I don't know that you could put us in a class and we would suddenly have the answers to this.

[Isaac Saul]

I think that there are a lot of things that we could that like government scientifically approved vetted things. What's normal, what's not, what to expect. We get Some of that we're in the hospital and they send us home with pamphlets. Yeah, but I think, I mean, 80 of what we're doing is just Googling, which is fine, I guess, and we're not screwing it up yet, I don't think. But like.

[Phoebe Padgett]

But also, like, what if we need, like, half of that is just because we're anxious? Like, I don't know that any of our Googling or anything that we've actually found has, like, educated us very much. It just has calmed our anxiety in the moment. Like, I don't know that we've actually learned very much. We've just found enough people online who say, yes, your baby's okay, that then we can go to sleep. Like, I don't think we've actually learned anything. And I think that, like, the reality is we could go to a child raising class beforehand, but I think at 2am when he's kind of making a weird sound and we've not slept for two days, I don't know that that class would really bring us much peace. Like, I think part of that is just being a new parent. And I think that those, all those things should be available. Like, I think that childbirth classes, breastfeeding, lactation, early childhood stuff, I think all of that should be free and available to everyone. And a lot of hospitals do that, but I don't. I think those things are available, and I think you and I did not seek them out. And I think right now we're the anxious new parents. And I don't know that anything would solve for that other than having already had a child.

[Isaac Saul]

I just can't get over the fact that we went into the hospital, you gave birth to this baby. They kept us there for 48 hours and, you know, showed you some basics on how to breastfeed. And. And then we just left. And there was no. There's no.

[Phoebe Padgett]

What would you have had them tell us?

[Isaac Saul]

I think that something before the baby's there. I think if you're. I think like six months into pregnancy, you get a free class on either the birthing class, like the one we went to, which we paid for, or just like a newborn, what the first six weeks are like type thing. I mean, I. I'm pretty sure that.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Those are available and we did not seek them out.

[Isaac Saul]

I'm saying something that's more accessible. Maybe, I don't know, maybe. Maybe I am talking about something that exists in most states.

[Phoebe Padgett]

I think most hospitals offer some version of this.

[Isaac Saul]

The other thing is I. The shaking baby thing. Oh, I really? If you asked me three months ago about shaken baby syndrome, shaking baby syndrome, and like, the warning, all the warning, you know, they kept giving us all these warnings in the hospital, like these little pamphlets that have the things on them that are like, don't shake your baby and whatever. And I'm like, do these people think I'm an idiot? And then the like, fourth night we had him home and he's just been screaming and wailing for two hours straight and we're trying every possible little trick and we can't console him. And I'm like, oh, I do literally want to shake this baby right now. It blew my mind that that was something that I felt myself have. The, like, I'm holding him and I had the impulse to like, shake him and beg him to stop what he was doing.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Well, I think, like, that's what feels so nuts. It's wild how, like, how quickly you're like, I don't know, logic or senses are overrided when like your whole nervous system is so out of whack. Like, I think also for me, like, there's something very like hormonal and primal happening when if he's crying like that, I feel. I feel like crazy. Like, I feel totally out of my skin. And if I can't get him to calm, like, it. I feel like a level of panic and like a level of like, disruption in myself that I've like never felt before. Like, I've never felt that level of like I'm so dysregulated and complete. Like, it's like my nervous system is completely fried and it's, it's so. It happens so quickly.

[Isaac Saul]

It's a lack of sleep too, I think is a huge part of that, I'm sure.

[Phoebe Padgett]

But I think there's also some part of it that it's like. I think it's both. I think it's like you're exhausted, you need to sleep. You haven't slept. And then I think there's this other thing of like, you. It's some. You can't reason with this, with this little screaming thing. You know, it's like you get to a point where you're an adult and like, you try to move through life where you're like reasoning with things and with people and like, you know, you talk things and you try to be rational and then you have this like animal who screams at you and there's no, there's nothing that, that is about like being like a well adjusted adult that helps you in that dynamic where you're like, well, I can't talk to you, so I just have to, like, find peace while you scream so loud. And I don't know if you're okay. I don't know if you're like, if. If you're. If there's something wrong and, like, in the. And also it's like, it's something wrong with you, but also you're. You're making me, like, I am not okay right now.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Like, you had that the other night. Like, the other night he was screaming, and I. And you saw me. You just had to, like, take him and go out of the room. Because I was like, I. I was. So.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, you were about to break down.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah. And it's like, you know, especially when it's like, you're breastfeeding this child, and my body hurts and I'm exhausted, and I can't soothe him, and I can't, like. And there's this sense of, like, I don't want to give him to you because it almost feels like I need to be able to do it. And so you kind of, like, cling. I, like, cling to him or, like, don't want to, like, let him go because I'm like, I need to be able to solve this. And it just, like. It's a wild feeling. It's wild.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. I mean, I definitely. I had a few. A couple moments, like, in the last few nights where he's been just totally on tilt in the middle of the night, and, like, my heart is just pounding, and I can't. It's just, like. It's so stressful because it's like, you know, if a person, like an adult is crying in front of you, it's upsetting. It's upsetting, and it's really stressful. And it's like, that's somebody who you're like, you can reason with and talk to. My favorite is when he's just totally psychotic crying. Just. It's like. It sounds like he is the most pain that he could possibly be in. Like, somebody has sat him down on a hot stove, and then he just burps and immediately stops and, like, just, like, wailing, wailing, wailing. And then he's like. And then just, everything's fine. I'm like, that was it. That's been the last 20 minutes. Like, you just had the burp, and it. You just never know what it is. And sometimes it's like, oh, there's something real going on, whatever. But, yeah, that has really. I've been thrown a few times by that. And I definitely feel the dysregulation is a good word for it where I'm like, I can't calm myself down because he's so over the top and hearing the crying.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Like I saw a video online of a parent who was like a pediatrician or someone like kind of responding to a parent who is, has a, has a crying baby in his arms, but he is wearing headphones, like noise canceling headphones with music on. And there was like all this back and forth in the comments about it and then like, and I was like, I don't know. That feels like kind of like messed up. He's like, he's like got his headphones on, he's not listening, he can't hear the baby. And I think it was either, I don't know, some child, someone was like, this is actually a good technique in that moment because like what the parent is doing is regulating himself. Like he is taking himself down so he's not so frantic.

[Isaac Saul]

I think that's brilliant.

[Phoebe Padgett]

And like had you show like, I mean, I guess you did. Like I saw that video before I had the baby and I was very much like, ah, something about this feels like not good. Like that feels icky. And now I'm like, well, yeah, totally. Give me headphones, earplugs, something to just like allow me to regain some level of rational experience.

[Isaac Saul]

The baby feeds off you, right?

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah. If I'm feeding like panic and frantic and stressed and my body is tense, the baby is not going to feel safe or the baby's going to feel that nothing doesn't feel safe but like it's not going to feel calmed. I don't know. That blew my mind.

[Isaac Saul]

We'll be right back after this quick commercial break.

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[Isaac Saul]

Ugh.

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[Isaac Saul]

I want to talk about the abortion perspectives, I guess. Yeah, might as well just.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Just jump, right?

[Isaac Saul]

Just grab the third rail. I mean, whatever this. I, I've written about my views about abortion and Tangle in the past, so it's not new ground. Personally, I was really interested in how going through pregnancy and birth was going to impact my views on this issue because it is traditionally one of the most controversial in the country and one of the most divisive, I would say. Now I don't even, I don't even know if it's true anymore. It's like almost taken a backseat to trans issues or just Donald Trump the person or whatever. But it feels still like a major, major wedge issue in the country. And I wanted to know. I was trying to be conscious of, like, what I was feeling and thinking. And people who have been longtime listeners or readers of Tangle know this. But I feel it's important, like the perspective that the, the baseline that I'm coming from is that I'm definitely more on the pro choice side of the argument. The framing that I've talked about it in Tangle a lot is just again, like the small government, the small government angle, which is, I, I just think it's insane to have, you know, members of Congress or the president or state legislatures limiting the options that are available to families and doctors when a lot of those experts and a lot of those doctors are telling us that that's like a dangerous thing to happen. So the moral question is almost a backseat to me. It's like if you want to have the moral conversation, I think it's a really interesting and challenging one. But that's a conversation you should win culturally with people on an individual basis versus, like you have this whatever government body saying that, oh, at four weeks or six weeks, magically we've drawn this line where all of a sudden your options just get completely narrowed and changed. So reflecting on that, I would say two things. Two sort of competing feelings for me have come up. One has made me much more sympathetic to the pro life side. Which is it, really. There's an argument that I hear often from the left or from people who are kind of on the pro choice side that's like oh, you know, this is like the fetus, you know, this, like 4, 6, 8, 10 week old fetus, whatever it is, it's like a. It's like a tumor, basically.

[Phoebe Padgett]

We gotta fuss. We gotta fuss, baby.

[Isaac Saul]

Is he awake? You want to say hi to the world, Omri? All right, I'm holding my baby now. Okay, so the fetus is a. Yeah. There's just like this perspective, I think, from the left that I hear a lot. I guess there's a perspective that I hear that it's just like, you know, my body, my choice. This, like, this thing is not a human. This is not. Does not have, you know, inherent value, whatever. And therefore, you know, removing it or extracting it or.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Right.

[Isaac Saul]

However you want to frame it, having an abortion at, like this early stages, you know, it's like they're. There can't be any limit on it. And there's, you know, like, there's. This is all about just like, controlling women's bodies or whatever. And I think, like, what I experience is like, I have this guy when he's, you know. Yeah. When he's like, you know, we're two weeks into knowing you're pregnant and I'm talking to your belly, I'm like, there is this thing. There is this thing in there that is. It's this. It's like, I know that this guy is gonna come eventually. And there's like a human, a potential future human in there that has value, that has worth, that has, you know, And I think. I think there's something really beautiful in that perspective that a lot of the pro people in the pro life movement hold that. I don't think people in the pro choice movement appropriately grapple with. And I think I felt so much more. Yeah. Just like, attached to that or acknowledging that or whatever, where I'm like, yeah, this is. There is this, like this total magic there. Even if he comes out sounding like this in the end, there is this total magic there. And, like. And I. I want some sort of, like, policy or cultural perspective or whatever that, like, acknowledges that and grapples with that. So that's sort of like part of it that made me more sympathetic to the kind of pro life position. And then the other side of that coin is like, this baby was not separate from your body. Like, you know, we had. God forbid. Thank God, I guess I should say we had a scare with him when you were like, seven months pregnant, where we were basically told that he might have some sort of heart defect and maybe would need open heart surgery or Maybe would need to be immediately extracted via C section. Or, like, you know, we didn't know what to expect. We had parts of the pregnancy. Hey, yeah, we're talking about you. We had parts of the pregnancy where, like, you were experiencing high blood pressure that's, like, related to the pregnancy, related to him. Where he would, you know, if. If it was. Ended up being kind of a hoax, the high blood pressure. But, like, if it had actually been what the doctors thought it was initially, you could have had to have a surgery right there and then. Or, like, your body gets treated because of this thing that he's doing to you. Like, you guys are not separate. You are not different entities also. And that reality and, like, experiencing that and seeing the ramifications of that make me feel so much stronger and, like, more sympathetic to the kind of the pro choice side where I'm just, like, I. The last thing I would have wanted. We had a couple of these scary moments during our pregnancy. And the idea we live in Pennsylvania where, like, we don't really have to think about this stuff, but the idea that we would have had to consider, you know, law or regulation or something that, like, you know, some congressman came up with, where it's not just a decision between me, you, and our doctor is insane to me. And, like. And any world where that's the case to me seems broken because it's so. There's so many different complications and, you know, different ways things could go. Are you a fussbot? You're all right. That it? That it? Yeah. It made me feel like, oh, there's we. Like, I don't want any government. God, like, the government sucks at so many things. The last thing I want them to do is, like, having some blanket decision about what I can or can't do in these situations. And. Yeah. And so, I don't know. I mean, those are kind of like two, I guess, initial spark plug thoughts that I'd be curious to hear you reflect on, but definitely two ways that I felt kind of impacted by this as it relates to, like, this big, divisive political topic.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah. I mean, I think to respond to the first, like, I agree. I think that, like, any. I don't know, it's hard, like, it's hard for me to take away the, like, the feelings that you had about and, like, the response that you have, like, oh, this is. This is something magical. This is a baby. Because we so desperately wanted this child and because, like, we were trying for this baby, we were wanting this baby all, you know, it's like, you're talking to my stomach. Because we wanted a baby. Like, we wanted this child. We wanted to grow our family. And, like, I think I. I think overall, I agree that there is this. Well, I go back and forth because I think a lot of conversation, like, a lot of that kind of. Like, I think that sort of. I think that sort of, like, callous. It's a clump of cells. I think that's actually a smaller group of voices. They may be loud, but I think it's actually a smaller group of voices on the, like, pro choice side, because I think there are very few people who have had abortions or people who understand what that process is who think so lightly of it. You know, I think, like, one of my big frustrations is that, like, people. I think there's this sort of simplified version of, like, on the. On the pro life side that's like, oh, they're kind of just. It. It's very. It talks as if people who get abortions are so blase about it. And I think, like, the reality is that if someone's deciding to end a pregnancy, even if it's early, even it's 100% what they want, it's a. It's. I haven't had an abortion, but I would imagine there are a lot of people who.

[Isaac Saul]

For.

[Phoebe Padgett]

For whom. Like, even if that's exactly what they want, it's like an emotional experience and it's upsetting. And I think, like, I think true on both sides of the conversation is that there's a real lack of nuance in what that experience is like. And I think, you know, being pregnant, my experience was like, I had a. Overall, a pretty easy, uncomplicated pregnancy. I wasn't super sick. I was healthy. The baby was healthy. And my experience was thinking, like, oh, my God, I'm. I can't imagine all these things happening to my body. And I didn't want this baby. Because the reality is, like, you know, an uncomplicated, easy pregnancy is still throwing up. It's still exhaustion, and I still have to go to work. You know, it's like I was working as a public defender over the summer during my pregnancy, and I'm in court, and I am, you know, standing up in front of a judge thinking, okay, will I throw up in front of this judge right now? Should I say, hey, judge, sorry, I have to go to the bathroom. Do I tell my supervisor that I'm pregnant to kind of explain why I look so exhausted or why I may throw up in court? Like, I Can't imagine having to have any of those conversations or dealing with any of that under the umbrella of this being a pregnancy that I didn't want. And I think, like, that was a really big kind of, like, indicator for me where it's like, pregnancy is hard. Yeah, baby, pregnancy is hard even when it's easy and even when it's exactly what you want. And I think, yeah, it just made me so aware of what that could do to someone physically and mentally if it wasn't what you wanted. And then I think, you know, I was also thinking, I had this conversation. Oh, baby.

[Isaac Saul]

She's got a tough life, man.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Oh, baby. I was having this conversation with my doctor, just kind of, like, about the process, or not the process, but like, about abortion and all of that. Not because that was something I was considering, but we were just talking about it. And she gave this really interesting perspective where she was like, I had this baby's farting, sorry, that saying that she had a patient who was trying for years to get pregnant, finally had gotten pregnant. She was doing IVF. She was 14 weeks pregnant. And my doctor had to diagnose and tell her that the baby didn't have a brain. And, like, there are. There would be jurisdictions and states where this woman who desperately wanted a child and has tried for years to be pregnant, has spent thousands and thousands of dollars, would have to carry a child to full term who didn't have a brain, who was never going to live a day outside of birth, and she would have to wait nine months to have this baby before she could even think about getting pregnant again. To eventually try to have a child. And like, that. There's something that's so. Like, that's.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, it.

[Phoebe Padgett]

That's like a horrifying.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is.

[Phoebe Padgett]

And it's like. I think it's. I think that's where I fall on everything, where it's like, it's so personal and it's so private, and it's just. I. I do. I really do feel like I understand the reaction that, like, this is a baby and this is a person, but, like, I can't get over what it does to the person who's pregnant to be the carrier of that potential person when you're a full person now with a life that is actively impacted and, like, impacted pretty quickly, you know, it's like.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, I mean, I was, I guess, related to how my feelings were impacted there. Like, I. Seeing how much your body changed, how much it impacted you. All these. I Mean, big and small. Like your blood volume doubles, your hair grows quicker, your feet swell up. Like all these things that are impactful and not impactful. And I think that was like a really important experience for me to have to see. That is just. Yeah, there is, There is both a really good argument that this thing, this fetus, this baby, this child inside you is. Has this very special, like, inherent worth because it could turn into this, like our son, this beautiful boy we're sitting here with, but also that he isn't separate from you. Like, there it is in a. It is this beautiful, insane, hard to describe situation where, like, the two of you are really one. Like your bodies are playing off each other and impacting each other. And it's beautiful. I mean, it's so magical and like. Of course, I'm just saying.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah, yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

Mysterious and magical and it's. It's a genuinely religious experience. Like watching you give birth and watching him come out, it made me feel like I was making contact with this other side, like a different dimension. Like seeing him come into the world. It was. It was like, where is he coming from? You know, it's so. And you can. I, like, I know the basic. Oh, yeah, like the sperm fertilized the egg and went. No amount of explanation that you could give me, like the scientific textbook explanation is sufficient to describe what happened. Yeah, it is. You know, it is the same way that we wonder what happens when you die and what comes after this. Whatever. Like, the place that he came from is equally mysterious and magical and like, unbelievably beautiful to me. And amidst all of that is this very real complication in this whole thing of, like, you two are on that journey together and not separate and not separate now as we are hearing, like, so it's. It's. I don't know. I don't know. There. There are hard. It's difficult ways to reconcile. Like, I don't. From a public policy perspective or whatever. I don't know what that means for me yet. I haven't totally made my. Sort of clarified my thoughts, but I felt. I. I'll just say I felt the pull of both the movements in this experience in really tangible ways.

[Phoebe Padgett]

That makes me think, like, I think where I land on that, where it's like, if one person can feel so deeply pulled, then, like, that's the. The answer is that then no regulation is going to solve it. Then, like, it should be left to the individual person because it can be. So.

[Isaac Saul]

Omri's making his debut. There you go.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Burp it can be so, so personal and so different. And like, and, and like, it may be different for, for one person at different times in their life. Like, that's the other thing is, like, it. That is changing and fluid, like so many things in life. And like, so then if. If one person can kind of hold so much of this nuance, then, like, why would we expect a law or a single whatever, even the government, whoever, to be able to, like, encapsulate something that, like, we can't even pin down? Why. Why would that be something that we would expect from, you know, it's like, I mean, yeah, in the same way that, like, I don't know, like, you know, you. You don't expect a law to be able to define God for you, right? So it's like, so why something that feels equally so personal and deep and mysterious and private and primal, why would we expect someone to be able to effectively regulate that?

[Isaac Saul]

That's a really good. I was just gonna sort of poke you for what's, like. I struggle to think of a good analogy, but yeah, a law congress coming to defining and putting in black and white letters a law defining God is kind of equivalent to them trying to define, you know, where life begins and ends or when, like, you know, someone needs something, someone needs to be granted certain rights inalienably, whatever. I mean, that is. Yeah, that's actually an interesting analogy. It doesn't quite fit, but it's really close. And I know what you mean. I think the sentiment is.

[Phoebe Padgett]

The sentiment is that, like, it would be an absurd ask. For me, it's not so much the comparison of God or not. It's that there are certain things that we know would be silly to try to create law around. Like things like, I don't know, personal taste or religion or all these things, like, not religion, but, like, who God is, what God looks like. Is there a God? Things that we're like, well, that would be silly. Like, that's not for the law to decide. Things that feel, like, closer to art than to law. And like, why do we. Why do we expect the law to be able to encapsulate these, like, deeply animal parts of ourselves? And like, isn't just the ask itself flawed? Like, isn't. Is it. Isn't it just ridiculous to try to force this structure onto something so animal in the first place?

[Isaac Saul]

Either way, yeah, well said. All right, we're. We're coming up on an hour and a half here and we've got a fussy baby on our hands, but I wanna There are a few other things I've got here in my notes I want to touch on. All right. Sort of kitschy, maybe more lighthearted question than the abortion debate. What. What was. What so far has been how you expected it to be.

[Phoebe Padgett]

About. About. About birth.

[Isaac Saul]

And what's. What's been what you've expected or what's been. Not what you expected? That was my next question. What's been surprising?

[Phoebe Padgett]

I don't know. These are, these are. I understand the question, but they're like, that's, that's too simple and hard of a question at the same time.

[Isaac Saul]

I'll go, oh, okay. I mean, I have an answer.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Okay, go for it.

[Isaac Saul]

The umbilical cord.

[Phoebe Padgett]

What about it?

[Isaac Saul]

Baby's belly buttons. Nobody told me how those things worked.

[Phoebe Padgett]

I. Okay, I'm not, not to be a jerk, but there are so many things where I'm like, what's going on with men?

[Isaac Saul]

Like, don't, don't make that. Don't make this.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Okay, well, I'm going to for a second because I'm like, you knew how belly buttons were. Yes, yes.

[Isaac Saul]

For those. The uninitiated.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Can I, Can I. There are just like some things where I, like, there just have been moments where I have known things or look things up or research things that you just didn't think to look up. And I'm like, why not?

[Isaac Saul]

And there have been things that I've known and researched and looked up that you haven't looked up or that that's gone both ways.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Okay.

[Isaac Saul]

I didn't know that. We just wait for the umbilical stump to dry out and fall off. That shocked me. That blew my mind when I found that out.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Okay.

[Isaac Saul]

We'Ll be right back after this quick commercial break.

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[Isaac Saul]

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Just for the sheer thrill of it.

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[Isaac Saul]

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I want to talk about your so I mean we've been doing this is the third time we've done this Valentine's Day podcast. So that means the first time we did this, you were in the middle of your first year of law school. You're now graduating.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Hopefully you're going to cross.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. Fingers everybody. Send Phoebe graduation juju. She's got to go back to school and finish and graduate this may. I know she's going to do it and she's going to walk with a baby. It'll be super badass. I you we can talk about your job, right? We can say, so Phoebe got a job. She got hired at the Philadelphia Public Defenders, which she'll be reluctant to say, but I'm happy to brag, is one of the more prestigious and well known public defense groups on the east coast and in the United States. So I guess I'm wondering, like how you're feeling about where things turned out with law school. I mean, in the first episode that we ever did, you didn't know, like you had no idea what you were going to do. There was. You've always Sort of thought about this public defender route, and I think doing public defense was always something sort of on your radar and felt like. I guess, felt like the thing that you wanted, but you explored other stuff. You tried. You know, we talked about maybe clerking.

[Phoebe Padgett]

You were.

[Isaac Saul]

Maybe you're going to work for a judge, whatever. There was, like, moments here where, yeah, you know, certain law. But now it feels like you've gotten sort of almost the best version of the job that you maybe wanted your first year of law school.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

I'm curious, A, how you're feeling. B. Yeah. What you're expecting, like, what you think this is going to be.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Like, how am I feeling? I mean, I think. I mean, realistically, I'm feeling like I just want to make sure I graduate so I get to do this job.

[Isaac Saul]

You're anxious about graduating, Graduating?

[Phoebe Padgett]

I think looking back, I mean, I went to law school thinking that I was going to be a public defender. So I think, like, I definitely gave my. Like, I wanted to give myself the space to explore other things and to change my mind and to, like, not feel like I had to stick to a path just because I chose it. Because I think the thing about public defense and a lot of public interest law is it's, like, it's heavy. It's heavy work. And, like, I. I am someone who I know, like, it could be very hard for me to put it down, and I wasn't sure that I would be able to handle it, honestly. So I think there was part of me that was like, okay, this is what I'm interested in. But I'm also trying to remain open to the fact that, like, it may not be practical for me to do this work. And I think I worked at the office over the summer, and I think, like, my biggest. Because I think the biggest. The fear in the moment is, like, you're representing indigent clients, and a lot of them are facing jail time, and a lot of them will go to jail. And it's really easy to set up. The only win being your client not going to jail or your client getting not guilty or your client walking away free or being released that day. And that is a win. That's a big win. But I think, like, my experience over the summer was kind of like, there are smaller wins along the way that make a big difference. And, like, sometimes it's the difference between 15 years and 10 years, or sometimes the difference between getting charged with a felony and a misdemeanor. And, you know, I think being able to see those. Those as wins and, and have those wins along the way and being able to, like, have had some success in some of those moments made me think, like, okay, there's a lot more here to feel like you're making progress with. And I think it's like, really, it would have been very difficult to not had I kept the original mindset of, like, if my client is going to go to jail, then that's a loss for me. And there are some instances where, like, it's a win for them to go for five years. You know, it's like, it's not what you want. No one wants it. But there are kind of incremental wins. And I think that was a helpful shift for me.

[Isaac Saul]

So we're living in. Politically, I think we're living in an era right now where there's been like a. We're experiencing a really big backlash to crime across the country. I think both violent and petty crime. I think, you know, Trump really won that issue in this past election. I think we've seen in cities like New York, here in Philadelphia, Cheryl Parker, cities like New York, Eric Adams, people who are, you know, becoming. Winning these Merrell races, who are running on kind of tough on crime positions. I'm curious, you know, in the context of all that, how you're thinking about your work. I mean, I, I'm super proud of you and really support what you're doing, both because I'm really skeptical about our prison systems as like a place where people are being rehabilitated or getting, getting help. I don't think they're like, improving society necessarily. And I think, yeah, we've pretty clearly witnessing, you know, whatever. We don't have to get into all that. But I, I'm very skeptical of just the prison systems generally as like a positive thing for society, even though I know putting people away can protect future victims in some instances. But I'm curious how. Yeah, I mean, I guess what I was saying was I'm proud of your work because I believe everybody needs representation. I think it's one of the beautiful things about our country is that nobody goes to these cases without being represented. But, like, you're gonna have to. You will have to defend and protect people who have done some really heinous stuff. How do you think about that?

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah, it's a good question. And it's a thing I. Something that I think about a lot. And I think where I come down to is kind of what you said. I think, like, at the end of the day, this sounds kind of flippant. But ultimately, it doesn't matter if my client is guilty or not. Like, my job is to offer them the protections that our Constitution gives to everybody. Like, my job is to uphold the Constitution. And the Constitution says you have a lawyer, you have a right to a lawyer. And that's my job. Like, if there are people along the way who are innocent, who many of them are and many of them are not, and I get to represent them, and I get to help that situation. I get to, like, bring justice to that situation, that's great. But I think ultimately, like, my job is to. Is to advocate. To be an advocate for the person who can't afford it. And it doesn't matter to me if they're guilty or not in the sense of that's not my job. Like, it is. It impacts my job. My job is to advocate for them. My job is to try to, whatever, get that not guilty, get that charge dropped. But really deeply, my job is to be their lawyer. And that's kind of it. You know, it's. It's simpler if you think about it like that. It's. I don't have to. I think my morals get mixed up in it because I think I share a lot of the things that you feel about the prison system and what going into the prison system does to people and all that, and whether there is merit in the prison system as we have it right now, and that's kind of almost a separate conversation.

[Isaac Saul]

Okay, but what about, like, a situation where you defend somebody and you do such a good job, they get off and then they go commit another crime?

[Phoebe Padgett]

I mean.

[Isaac Saul]

Violent crime, sexual assault, rape, murder, whatever.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah, I got. I got it.

[Isaac Saul]

I'm just saying not to make it. To make the stakes higher than like a, you know, they go steal from the bodega or whatever.

[Phoebe Padgett]

The reality is that in that if I do that, well, then the state doesn't have the evidence. I think the reality is that if this person has. My job is not saying this person didn't do it. Maybe it is, but most of the time is that it's. The state can't prove it. And I think there are many more people who believe that who are like, regardless of what you think about an individual client, the reality is, I think many of us. Most of us want to live in a world where the state has to prove it. If they're gonna lock you up, I want that world.

[Isaac Saul]

I'm with that.

[Phoebe Padgett]

And I think the reality is. I think that many people, Most people in our society want that. They want the State to have to be able to prove it and say, this is exactly how we know. And I think like the side of my job not to keep on deflecting. I'm sure the reality is if a client of mine got let off and then committed another violent crime, I'm sure I would have a really hard time with it. But I think, like, what allows me to do the work is the idea that, like, if they got off, it's because the state didn't have what it needed to prove that they did it. And I think, I think most Americans want that burden. They want you. I think most Americans want to have to say, you have to prove beyond like our highest standard of proof that I am guilty for you to strip me of my liberties that are country is founded that means so much of like the American dream. American promise is liberty, right? Is freedom, is all of these things and so inherent is that is like, if we're going to strip someone of that, we want to be sure. And my job is to make sure is to challenge the state and be like, are you really sure? Do you have what you need? And if I can convince 12 people that there's not enough, I think that is ultimately that's what we want as a society. Because I think we talked about this in a class. Isn't it better that a guilty man goes free than an innocent man is locked up? And I think everyone agrees with that. Wouldn't you rather have a system where a guilty man could go free as opposed to the innocent being locked up?

[Isaac Saul]

Wouldn't you rather have a system where a guilty man goes free than an innocent? Yeah, yeah, I think I agree with that.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Right. Like, I think because if we don't.

[Isaac Saul]

The innocent man going, the innocent man being locked up makes. Feels like way more uncomfortable than a guilty person walking free. I think that's right. That's an interesting thought experiment. And like, I'd be curious how different people answer that differently and why. Personally, my biggest nightmare is going to prison.

[Phoebe Padgett]

And I think a lot and I.

[Isaac Saul]

Think most for like something I didn't do.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Exactly. And I think like, the reality is that a lot of people kind of experience conversations about prison reform or about public defense through that observer's lens where they're not thinking about their experience as a defendant, they're thinking about their experience as a victim. They're thinking about their experience as the family member of a victim and how horrible would it be for someone who caused me harm to get to walk free? But I think people don't think of the system as like, well, don't I want to be the innocent person who's not going to go to jail? Because the, the state has an easy job.

[Isaac Saul]

So you did this past summer, you had this internship with the, the Philly Public Defenders, which is, you know, a big part of how you got the job. Give us a, you know, typical kind of case or profile of like a person. What's like an average. Couple examples of like an average thing that you see that you're responsible for.

[Phoebe Padgett]

So basically what I was doing were these like early hearings where someone's been charged with a crime and the state has to say, like, hey, we've got like just enough proof that they can actually be charged. And usually what I was doing was drug charges. So possession with intent to distribute, so selling drugs, drug trafficking. And so a lot of the times my job is to look at the police record. I was cross examining officers. Sometimes it's just about like fleshing out their story and seeing like what their story is, what's inconsistent. And sometimes there are opportunities where like I have the chance to get one of the charges dropped right there. And that's the, like the big exciting win is to get something dropped and to get someone out of felony, out of a felony charge and maybe down to a misdemeanor. So over the summer that was like a lot of what I was doing was these. Most of what I handled were drug charges because Philly is a big drug city. You know, it's like that's a lot of what's happening is people selling. And especially in like Kensington and parts of North Philly, we get a lot of people who are being charged with selling heroin, selling cocaine, selling weed. Not so much. Weed is. Yeah, Fentanyl.

[Isaac Saul]

It's really horrifying.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah. So there's a lot, you know, it's. That's scary, but so that's a lot of almost all men. I think I had maybe one or two clients that were assigned to me that were women, almost all men.

[Isaac Saul]

Were they also drug charges? The women?

[Phoebe Padgett]

One I think was like some sort of assault. They were like in a fight outside of a bar and then one I forget, I don't remember.

[Isaac Saul]

Can the public attend your cases?

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The courts are open. You can always go into the court and walk in. Tenney, Ramon.

[Isaac Saul]

Okay, so I guess like, you know, looking ahead to the work that you're going to do when this is like your real full time job, big person job, your grown up job. Will the state prosecutors become adversaries to you or is there some sort of like collegial relationship there?

[Phoebe Padgett]

I think it depends on the person. Ideally there's some level of like, we can work together on certain things to like drop certain charges or whatever. Ideally. I think with like the kind of progressive prosecutor, Larry Krasner, there's much more kind of across conversation between the two offices. I think historically the Philly DA was pretty like burn it down prosecution, like very tough on crime, lock em up vibes. And now with a progressive prosecutor, there's a lot more conversation about diversion programs and for some offender programs and things like that that are kind of more. Yeah, like just more. More kind of diversionary tactics that were trying to funnel people away from the prison system and kind of more just like more conversation about sentencing and not over sentencing, not overcharging, which was like a big thing. So I think, yeah, depending on who the.

[Isaac Saul]

I'm very curious to see what that's like. Yeah, because you're like, you particularly your person, my personality. Yeah, you are very. I think you're really in some ways chummy. You're, you're a talker. I can see you chopping it up and mixing up and like making relationships. But you can also be really kind of aggro and like you're, you, you're combative too, and aggressive. And I think people are. It's going to be interesting to see the places where that is a strength and benefits you and the places where that is like you burn bridges immediately.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah, yeah, it'll be. I mean, it already kind of started happening. I mean, not really, but like there were a couple of times over the summer where I would be up against, up against. But I was like, you know, whoever, the DA or the ada and we were like arguing back and forth in front of the judge and they would say something silly and I'd be like, judge get a little bit frustrated with them. And sometimes judges are like, they are fine with it. But I had one instance where I was trying to get a client's case dismissed because he was part of three people who were being charged and they weren't there, they weren't showing up, this whole complicated thing. And I was like, they should dismiss it against my client because whatever, for whatever reason. And the other person on their side was arguing, being like, oh no, we want to hold them all together. And I was, I was like, your honor, like that. Like basically just being like, your honor, if that's the case and he should absolutely dismiss whatever against my client. And the judge just goes, hey, hey, don't pile on. And I was just like, yeah, yes, yes, you're. Of course. Yeah. You know, it's like. And that was like, at the end of the summer where I had kind.

[Isaac Saul]

Of, like, more confidence.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah, more confidence. I would never have spoken or like, even kind of gotten a little chippy. But I think that my ability to have a little bit of that, like, attitude. Confidence is helpful. I think, like, I. In one of my. With one of my clients, there was a. A charge that I was able to get dismissed, like a felony charge. And I think part of that, you know, the state didn't have the facts, but I also was, like, pretty, like, persuasive. And I think, like, leaned into the confidence part of it of, like, the. The DA was essentially trying to make a claim that because this person had weed on them, they must have been selling weed. And I was like, your honor, unfortunately, in this city, everybody has weed on them. So, like, if you want to lock up the whole city, then that's one thing. And the judge kind of was like, all right, relax. But. But then the charge got dropped, so something worked. Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

All right, we've got incoming Fussy Baby and Dinner time on the Rock. So I think we should probably wrap up a little bit. Our third annual. I can't believe we've done this three times now. Phoebe. Omri, man, what can I say? Yeah. I love you both. I love you both dearly. I'm obsessed with this child. It is a bizarre, different, totally unfamiliar kind of love to have for a little baby. And you, Phoebe, did the most impressive thing I've ever seen anybody do. Giving birth. 10 months of pregnancy to birth was the most impressive. Truly the most impressive thing I've ever seen anybody do. Like a marathon that ends with a fully cooked human being coming out. And I'm incredibly proud of you. I love you very much. I love our baby boy. You came out perfect. Five, ten, ten fingers, ten toes.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Yeah, five fingers.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, ten. Ten fingers, ten toes. Two eyes. He's perfect. And. And you're. You're close to perfect.

[Phoebe Padgett]

Thank you.

[Isaac Saul]

I love you. A happy Valentine's Day.

[Phoebe Padgett]

We love you back. Say goodbye, Omri. Say goodbye. Say thank you.

[Isaac Saul]

I can't wait till you can talk. All right, thank you guys for tuning in. I am excited to. As Phoebe May alluded to, I've had a hard time really letting. Going, stepping away. And I miss all you guys. I miss the Tangle community. I miss writing every day. And I'm excited to come back. I'm going to have a piece that's a big review of the first month of Trump's presidency. I'm going to talk about the good, the bad and the un unclear, unsure. And then after that, the week after that, I'm actually going to do a whole piece on a lot of the stuff Phoebe and I talked about, the parenting and the experience of birth and all this stuff and, and how it has sort of informed and changed my mind about certain political issues. So a couple interesting pieces of writing I hope coming out. I'm going to come back from from paternity leave the week of February 24th. So I look forward to seeing you guys then. And until then, be well, Happy Valentine's Day, spread the love and rest assured I'll be here soaking up the last week or two of fraternity leave, which probably should be like six months, but I'd personally go crazy with that. So I'll see you soon. Peace.