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- [00:00]
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- [01:30]
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From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle.
- [01:45]
Ari Weitzman
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, the place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of our take. This is Tango's managing editor, Ari Weitzman. It's Tuesday, and that can only mean one thing. This is the part where you say what the thing is, because I honestly don't really know. I mean, for me, Tuesday's always kind of lacked an identity. It's not the weekend. It's not the beginning of the week, really. And it's not the midweek either. It's just kind of there, like a rock in a stream. And when you think about it, days of the week are all kind of weird. We've got the 365 numbered days to track the solar cycle and Roman months to track the lunar cycle, more or less. So why do we need another cycle of days named after the Norse gods to also poorly track the lunar cycle. I'm going to actually stop there. I have a lot to say about calendars, as you probably could have guessed, but today we're talking about these water system hacks. We're also going to give a look at the history of attacks on municipal systems like these and a story about an upstanding restaurateur. It's going to be a jam packed, quick addition that should please tier the one handed Norse God of Justice after whom Tuesday is named. Enough about that. I'm going to send it over to John to get us started.
- [03:16]
John Law
Thanks Ari and welcome everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, the House Ethics Committee recommended that Representative Chuck Edwards be censured after finding substantial reason to believe that he made inappropriate sexual advancements toward two female House staffers. 2 President Donald Trump said U.S. attorney Jeanine Pirro choked in deciding to drop charges against a man accused of vandalizing the Reflecting pool in Washington, D.C. pirro said contractors were responsible for damage to the pool. 3. Police arrested a man in connection with the wildfires in Spokane County, Washington, which have destroyed over 700 structures and forced approximately 65,000 people to evacuate. Number four, 25 Democratic led states sued the Trump administration over its new tariffs on 60 US trading partners, alleging the president did not have the authority to impose the duties. And number five Michigan health officials reported two deaths linked to the ongoing cyclospora outbreak in the state, the first confirmed deaths in the US Related to the outbreak.
- [04:26]
News Reporter
Tonight, the FBI warning cities across the country about cyber attacks to municipal water systems, writing utility companies in at least seven states have reported incidents to the FBI and some of that activity degraded water operations. In Minnesota alone, more than 30 municipal water systems have been targeted and a senior law enforcement official has told NBC News that attack bears all the hallmarks of Iranian backed hackers, though today President Trump denied Iran was behind it.
- [04:56]
John Law
On Thursday, the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency issued an alert about potential cyber threats to water Systems after approximately 36 sites in Minnesota reported cyberattacks. Then on Saturday, Michigan reported cyberattacks on nine water systems. Both states say their water supplies are not actively threatened. Separately, the Federal Bureau of Investigation said that attacks have been reported in at least seven states. Federal authorities are investigating the source of the threat, which US Investigators believe bears the hallmarks of cyber terrorist groups linked to Iran. According to Minnesota IT Services, the attacks primarily targeted technology to remotely monitor and control water systems equipment. In one of the most serious cases, attackers shut down the operating controls for the well and water treatment plant in the city of Bram, prompting officials to ask residents to minimize water use. The request was lifted after a few hours. As of Thursday, the state had no active requests for communities to modify their water use in Michigan. A spokesman for the Department of Environment, Great Lakes and Energy said that a small number of reports from Michigan communities indicated activity consistent with what federal agencies described, but all water systems were operating safely. The FBI has not disclosed the other five states where attacks were reported in the wake of the attacks. U.S. officials said the source or sources of the threat are still under investigation, but the incidents resemble past attacks by Iranian hackers. Furthermore, no financial motive has been uncovered, reducing the likelihood that criminal groups were behind the hacks. Bram Mayor Nate George told the New York Times that the state and FBI had relayed to him that they are pretty sure it's Iranian actors, but were not ready to say so publicly. However, President Donald Trump suggested Minnesota was at fault for the attacks, telling reporters on Friday they blame it on Iran. I don't think so. I think I blame it on Minnesota because they're grossly incompetent. Minnesota governor Tim Walsh responded. Trump knows exactly who is responsible for this attack, adding, this is what modern warfare looks like, and it further illustrates there's no plan to win a war with Iran. Today we'll share views from the left and the right on the cyberattacks, and then Managing editor Ari Weitzman will give his take.
- [07:07]
AWS AI Announcer
Foreign.
- [07:12]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [07:16]
Ground News Announcer
Hey everyone, quick thought before we get started. If you listen to Tangle, it's probably because you're trying to escape the media echo chamber. But even when you read broadly, it's hard to see which stories are being emphasized and which ones are being ignored. This episode is brought to you by Ground News. Ground News is not a publisher. It's an app and website that gathers reporting on every news story from across the political spectrum and shows you each outlet's bias rating, factuality rating and who owns it. It's more than just an aggregator. It gives you context on every perspective in one place so that you can make up your own mind. For example, a recent story about a bipartisan border deal collapsing was covered by 50 plus outlets. One left leaning headline read GOP sinks border deal under Trump Pressure, while a right leaning one said Democrats block stronger border enforcement. Same event, very different framing. Ground News lets you compare that instantly and even flags blind spots stories disproportionately covered by one side. If you want unlimited access to these features, subscribe to the vantage plan for 40% off@groundnews.com TN that's groundnews.com TN promo code TN again groundnews.com TN code TN for 40% off. If you care about seeing the full picture, I think you'll really value this tool.
- [08:35]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's name your price tool for years now. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive.com find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law.
- [09:12]
John Law
Alright, first up, let's start with what the left is saying. Many on the left say the federal government is responsible for defending against these threats. Some criticize Trump's response to the attacks. Others say the incident should spark improvements in cyber safety. In the New York Times, Jen Easterly argued small towns shouldn't have to defend America's water supply from Iran. The attacks tentatively attributed to Iran expose a dangerous mismatch at the heart of American cybersecurity. The threat is geopolitical while the defense is municipal. We are asking small towns, many with no dedicated cybersecurity staff members and little money to spare, to protect essential infrastructure against hackers linked to other nations, easterly wrote. Non state hackers do not respect the jurisdictional line separating federal, state and local responsibility. They search for the most vulnerable way to disrupt American life, and too often they find it in small communities that lack the resources to defend themselves. Cuts to federal cyber defense support are weakening America's cyber defenses and Washington should reverse course. Congress should restore federal support for the multi state Information Sharing center and commit at least $3 billion in new multi year funding to the state and local cybersecurity grant program. Easterly said cyberattacks will continue and some will succeed. The task is to ensure that a digital intrusion does not become a public health disaster. In an era of nation state cyber conflict, the ultimate measure of resilience is brutally when attackers get in, clean water must still come out in msnow. Steve Bennon said the Democrats criticism is rooted in fact, even for a president who increasingly treats Democratic led states as undeserving of federal support and resources. Trump's eagerness to blame Americans for cyberattacks and that appear to have come from Iran was quite bonkers, bennon wrote. To hear the president tell it, Minnesota hacked itself, which is every bit as absurd as it sounds. Time will tell whether Trump continues to blame Americans for this and again questions the existence of the cyber attacks. But as the story unfolds, several Democratic officials are increasingly raising difficult questions about the Republican administration and its record. For example, Minnesota governor Tim Walz, whom the president appeared desperate to condemn on Friday, responded to the president by noting the Trump administration's cybersecur cuts. Bennon said the president who blamed Americans for the cyberattacks is the same president who, just a few months into his second term, fired a series of national security officials. Ten months later, at least seven states are dealing with cyberattacks on domestic water systems. Is the president trying to deflect blame out of petty partisanship, or is he trying to deflect attention away from his own record? In Forbes, Steve Weissman asked if the cyberattacks will be a wake up call. Water systems have long been particularly attractive targets for our adversaries as these utilities provide essential services but often use outdated industrial control systems, with many water systems lacking even basic cybersecurity precautions, weissman wrote. According to the EPA, 70% of federally inspected water utilities failed to meet necessary cybersecurity standards. The attack against the Minnesota water facilities occurred only four days after CISA issued a warning that Iranian backed hackers were targeting critical infrastructure, including water systems through attack tracking Internet connected automated devices used to manage infrastructure systems. There are specific steps that can be taken to reduce the threat of similar attacks, weissman said. Removing Internet exposure of industrial control systems using complex passwords requiring multi factor authentication for remote access Continuous vulnerability scanning and monitoring Replacement of out of date equipment and regular software Updating of software programs with security patches Cybersecurity training for personnel Increased federal funding to small utilities that lack proper cybersecurity personnel. We've long been warned for years about this problem and the fixes, many of which are easily achievable and are long overdue. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying. Which brings us to what the right is saying. Many on the right argue that local leaders need to do a better job of defending against cyber attacks. Others say the incidents underscore the need for strengthened infrastructure. Some question Trump's response to the attacks. In PJ Media, David Mannie suggested that the attacks raise a hard question for every mayor. The FBI says hackers have already reached municipal water controls in at least seven states, Manny wrote. Federal inspectors have warned about weak municipal defenses for years. More than 70% of the water systems inspected since September 2023 violated basic federal risk and emergency planning requirements. Inspectors found default passwords, shared staff logins and accounts that remained active after employees left. Mayors and city councils should demand a current inventory of every Internet connected control device, the date of the last independent assessment, proof that default passwords are gone, and a tested plan for manual operation, manny said. We're left with a binary choice that every mayor owns now. Either the water system has been secured or or the town is waiting for a hacker to discover what local leaders failed to fix. The Washington Post editorial board said the breaches showed the vulnerability of US Infrastructure. The episode is a frightening reminder of the urgent need to harden critical infrastructure, the board wrote. The United states has around 170,000 water and wastewater systems, which are increasingly automated and vulnerable to attack. Such dispersed infrastructure is a strength in that no single attack can bring down the country's water sector. But it is also a weakness, as smaller utilities with aging operational and IT systems often have limited resources or technical capacity to protect themselves. Hopefully, the recent attacks jolt utilities into taking their defenses more seriously. Even a little can go a long way, the board said. The Government Accountability Office found that many systems lack basic cyber hygiene, such as changing default passwords or updating operating systems. The federal government can also help streamline the overlapping government regulations that that hinder utilities defenses. As artificial intelligence supercharges the cyber capabilities of nefarious actors, Americans cannot afford operators to be asleep at the pump. In National Review, Jim Garrity wrote about the cyberattacks that President Trump doesn't want to acknowledge. Considering the importance of what it does, the U.S. department of Homeland Security's Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency is surprisingly low profile, garrity said. Attacks to hack into critical infrastructure are widespread. In 2024, Checkpoint research documented 1,162 cyberattacks on U.S. utilities, a 75% year over year increase. Given those numbers, perhaps it's good that we hear about CISO so rarely, but the agency regularly puts out new alerts about foreign cyber threats. Here's our president on Friday. Today I just want to mention that we heard in Minnesota there was a cyber attack and they blamed it on Iran? I don't think so. I think I blame it on Minnesota because they're grossly incompetent. How about the attacks on water systems in those six other states, Mr. President, do you think the governor's behind it for all those, too? Garrity wrote. Our critical systems are under attack and our rambling, erratic, living in his own world president doesn't want to acknowledge it. If he did publicly recognize that Iran is trying to harm Americans through their water systems, the public might rather be upset by the latest cancellation of massive military response against the Iranian regime. All right, let's head over to Ari for his take.
- [16:53]
Ari Weitzman
All right, that's it for what the left and right is saying. Which brings me to my take. So to me, this is one of those stories that starts out sounding scary, then it starts to sound actually kind of silly the more you learn about it, and then it ultimately feels kind of like nothing at all. Earlier this year, I wrote about Ukraine's advancements in its war against Russia, saying its quadcopter drones were terrifying to behold and provided a glimpse into a potential future of automated warfare that we're simply not ready for. When reading headlines about these cyber attacks in Michigan and Minnesota, it's easy for visions of Ukrainian slaughter bots to come to mind. A country we're currently in a war with half a world away, whose military we are punishing into submission, is still somehow managing to hit us at home with only a few well placed, low cost attacks. If the future of war is coming to your kitchen sink, that's a pretty terrifying prospect. But actually, the real story is a little less scary and a lot more asinine. For years, hackers backed by Iran with names like Pioneer Kitten, Cyber Avengers, which is spelled very cool with a 3 instead of an e, and Hendala hack team, I think I'm pretty sure pronouncing it right, have been claiming credit for significant data breaches and performing scary sounding hacks like these ones before the US attacked Iran. These efforts mainly focused on Israel, and at first they were mainly bluster. Between 2023 and 2025, Handala hack infiltrated an Israeli alert system to sound emergency alarms in kindergartens and to send threatening messages to civilians. It sent messages to about 50 500,000 Israelis claiming to have breached the country's Iron Dome missile defense system. Warning, you have only a few hours to fix the system. But that was a lie designed to make Israelis feel vulnerable. And during the same period, Cyber Avengers, the one with the very edgy three for an E, hacked small digital components called PLCs or programmable logic controllers made by the Israeli company unitronics. These PLCs, they're little rugged minicomputers that are connected to the Internet and are frequently used in manufacturing processes to automate mechanical tasks or monitor equipment. The Iran backed group would Access them through vulnerabilities like not changing the default password and display the message on monitors, you have been hacked. Down with Israel. This exact hack hit a water authority in Alquipa, Pennsylvania in 2023, causing its services to be taken offline for a brief period. And over time, these groups have evolved in their scope of target and the impact of their hacks, but their approach has remained relatively the same. Kadala hacked a Michigan medical technology company and FBI Director Cash Patel earlier this year, warning that they would release private information. Cyber Avengers expanded its reach to target PLCs produced not only by Unitronics, but also by an American and German supplier. Then over the past week, coordinated cyberattack hit 30 municipalities in Minnesota as well as towns in six other states, causing temporary loss of service. Some of these vulnerabilities are as simple as just not changing the device's default password from 1111. Seriously? That's what happened in Alquipa. They're also not a surprise. CISA has been aware of these vulnerabilities and warning about these hacks since 2020. CISA even issued a warning about this General vulnerability unconfigured PLCs in municipal water systems in 2023. Then in April of this year, it issued another warning about this exact vulnerability in these exact components. It's no exaggeration to say that the federal government has been aware of security vulnerabilities in municipal water components for quite some time. It is, however, an exaggeration to say this was some kind of huge danger to the public welfare. In Minnesota, none of the targeted municipalities issued a boil water advisory. There was no public contamination of water and no health hazards. As cybersecurity expert Pierluigi Paganani wrote in Security affairs, the actors changed IP addresses and passwords, resulting in loss of monitoring and control functionality. That's it. Default or weak credentials on Internet exposed hardware and suddenly operators are locked out of their own systems. Obviously this wasn't the most confidence inspiring week for our national logistics. If these municipal systems are this easy to hack, what other vulnerabilities could exist in other systems? This should provide a wake up call to local governments across the country. But let's also be honest here. We've been at war with Iran for months and we've been aware of these hacking groups for years. If this is the closest the American public has gotten to even feeling unsafe, and I think we're in a pretty good spot. Some group that could be connected to Iran and almost definitely is, but maybe it isn't. But it is took a crack at one of our largest national cybersecurity vulnerabilities, decentralized across an array of towns, and we pretty much took it in stride. I'm actually feeling less concerned about terrorist cyber attacks now than I felt last week, before any of this happened. If I were the President of the United States, I'd be taking this moment to reassure the public and probably send back slaps down the chain of command. My cybersecurity agency, despite its recent cuts, detected this threat well ahead of time and issued amply advance notice to municipalities across the country. Officials in Minnesota alertly caught the concerted attack and communicated with the public honestly and transparently. Meanwhile, operators at water and wastewater authorities in towns across the country acted quickly and got their services back online with only minimal disruption. It's not like our entire national infrastructure needs to be completely overhauled. All we have to do is reset some passwords or reassign support numbers, or put remote access behind a VPN to patch this hole outwardly. During the course of an international conflict, I'd project confidence and security. Behind the scenes, though, I'd be much more demanding. Why should any American town ever accept employees putting Internet connected devices onto water services without following even the most basic security protocols? In what world is having only 30% of our water systems prepared to respond to an emergency even remotely acceptable? How are state governments not enforcing better guidance about this? And then truly entering fantasy world here for a second? I deny the Pentagon a modest 0.3% of its latest budget request to fund a $3 billion information sharing program at CISA, which would be a direct response to the actions from Iran most likely to impact American citizens at home. Now, back in the real world, where my office is pretty far from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, President Trump decided to take pot shots at Minnesota and its governor, which is something of a favorite pastime for him. Now, the state isn't totally blameless here, but can we be serious? Minnesota was one of at least seven states hit. It was the first to report what it experienced, and CESA itself has been warning about a potential Iranian cyber attack exactly like this for years. This didn't happen because of Governor Walz slinging jabs at a state led by a guy who ran against him in the last election is technically a way for the president to respond. But I can't say Trump's message makes me feel any more secure about our government's ability to address and adapt to these threats moving forward. Luckily, though, I don't have to base my feeling of security based on messaging. Instead, if I look at how ultimately low impact this insanely open exploit turned out to be, I'm left feeling pretty secure. I'll put it like this. A few months ago I stopped at a Taco Bell in New Hampshire halfway through a road trip from Vermont to Massachusetts. I used the bathroom while waiting for my food, and when I went to wash my hands, I found the faucet dripping and spraying. Oddly, after taking a moment to pat myself a little bit drier, I gave the faucet a closer inspection and discovered that someone had fitted a perforated condom up and around the entire fixture. Personally, I feel more terrorized by the possibility of getting hydrologically assaulted by another fast food bathroom prophylactic among other threats you might find in a fast food bathroom than I do the prospect of my town's water supply being made unsafe. I'm personally not going to be losing any sleep over Cyber Avengers with a 3, but I am going to continue to keep a few gallons of distilled water handy, as he probably should be doing generally anyway. But that's it for my take, so I'm going to send it over to our executive editor, Isaac Saul for a dissent. Okay, Isaac, what you got?
- [25:56]
Isaac Saul
Thanks, Ari. Isaac here with my staff. Dissent today. Unlike Ari, I find these cyber attacks quite worrisome. Hundreds if not thousands of local municipalities being vulnerable to hacks like this seems both obvious and alarming. Of course they don't have security teams or the resources to respond. And of course that is a huge opportunity for a state actor who wants to sow chaos. If these were actually Iranian hackers, who's to say this was the maximum damage they could do and not just the shot across the bow? And what of China, Russia, or other state actors who might be more capable in cyber warfare? Nothing I've seen or read gives me confidence these vulnerabilities will be fixed at scale anytime soon. Given how underfunded and under resourced so many municipal governments in America are, I have a hard time imagining this becoming a level one priority that gets addressed. The situation to me looks more like Iran just found an easily exploitable way to upend life for Americans thousands of miles away, and our President responded by blaming domestic political opponents. While we lack any clear strategy on how to quickly fund or implement any long term fixes. All right, I'm going to send it back to Ari and John for the rest of the pod and I'll see you guys tomorrow.
- [27:17]
Ari Weitzman
Peace.
- [27:23]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [27:29]
Hannah Burner
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- [28:24]
AWS AI Announcer
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- [28:49]
John Law
Thanks Ari and now for a deeper look. Among civilian infrastructure, water systems are particularly vulnerable to cyber attacks because they are decentralized and often rely on older technology and have been since the dawn of the 21st century. In early 2000, an Australian man successfully hacked into the wastewater system in Maroochyshire, Queensland, and caused sewage to spill into nearby areas. This is thought to be the world's first known hacking attack against civilian infrastructure to cause physical damage. There were several attempted attacks against US Water systems, but the first to cause physical damage occurred in 2007 when a California man was accused of installing unauthorized software on a Canal Systems computer, typically used to divert water from the Sacramento River. The man had been an employee of the canal system before carrying out the attack, which caused over $5,000 in damage to the computer. Since then, several more cyber attacks have been carried out, often in the form of either ransomware or remote access. In 2021, WSSC Water in Maryland experienced a ransomware attack in which cybercriminals gained access to internal files. In 2024, a hack against American Water, the largest publicly traded water utility in the US Was forced it to shut down key systems, including customer billing, until the exploit was under control. No group took responsibility for either attack and water treatment was not affected. And last, but not least our have a nice day Story Seok Yeon Joon Tuk bought a restaurant space in April 2025, and it was a bit of a fixer upper. A fire at a business next door had knocked out power to the restaurant, forcing it to close for several months. While cleaning in preparation for the reopening, Yoon Jongtook came across an old cabinet containing $12,000, some of it hidden inside a sunglasses case. He realized the cabinet belonged to the previous owner and set off to track him down. After several tries to get in touch, he finally reached the man and returned the money. I feel like this was the right thing to do. Yang Joon took said honesty. Integrity is very important in life. WLBT3 has this story and there's a link in today's episode description
- [30:55]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
all right
- [30:56]
John Law
everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to retangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership, or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac, Ari and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'.
- [31:13]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
All.
- [31:15]
John Law
Peace.
- [31:17]
Isaac Saul
Our Executive Editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our Executive producer is John Lawrence. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will Kbach and Associate editors Audrey Moorhead, Lindsey Knuth and Bailey Saul. Music for the podcast was produced by Diane75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@retangle.com.
- [31:56]
AWS AI Announcer
Why can't we get AI to production? Our competitors are already how do we keep data secure? AWS AI cuts through the noise with ready to use agents and the broadest set of AI tools. Stop overthinking, start building AWS AI is how
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