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- [00:00]
Dog Owner
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- [01:16]
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- [02:07]
Isaac Saul
Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast. The place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul and on today's episode we are going to be talking about the passing of the Pope. We're gonna break down some views from across the political spectrum and then I'll share my take. Not our typical Tangle issue, but feels like the biggest story not just in America, but in the world today. And there's a lot of. I mean, just to be honest, there's so much politics in Pope Francis and his time as Pope. There's so much cultural relevance. There's just a lot of meat on the bone in terms of the influence he had, the impact he had, what he stood for, what he accomplished, what he didn't accomplish. So I thought today's podcast ended up being really interesting and I'm excited to share it with you guys. Before we jump in, I do have a correction to issue, unfortunately in our April 14th under the radar section. And sorry it took us a while to catch this. We were covering a new Colorado gun control law and we originally wrote that Colorado residents can circumvent the state's request requirements by purchasing semi automatic firearms. In other states, the opposite was actually true. Federal law requires gun dealers to abide by the laws of the state where the buyer lives. This was a frustrating instance of just moving too quickly while researching a story and we misread a key sentence somewhere slipped through the editorial process. I don't really know how this is something I know pretty well, so I'm most of all surprised that I didn't catch it. So I apologize personally for that. This is our 134th correction in Tangle's 298 week history and our first correction since April 16th. We track corrections and place them at the top of the podcast in an effort to maximize transparency with readers. All right, with that out of the way, I'm gonna pass it over to John for today's main story and I'll be back for my take.
- [04:13]
John
Thanks Isaac and welcome everybody. Hope you all had a refreshing and wonderful weekend. Be because we had an extended weekend, we're actually going to be sharing 10 quick hits with you today. First up, the Supreme Court temporarily blocked the Trump administration from removing a group of Venezuelan men currently in immigration custody from the United States under the Alien Enemies Act. While a lower court hears a challenge to the removals, Justices Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas dissented. Number two, Secretary of State Marco Rubio announced a plan to reorganize the State Department, saying the changes would target decades of bloat and bureaucracy at the department. Number three Russian President Vladimir Putin declared a one day ceasefire against Ukraine in observance of Easter, though Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Russia continued its attacks during that period. The move follows remarks by Secretary of State Rubio that the US Was considering halting its efforts to broker a peace deal between the sides. 4 An Israeli military probe found several professional failures in a series of Israel Defense Forces shootings in that killed 15 paramedics and rescue workers in Gaza. The military said a commander would be dismissed over the incident. Number five Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth reportedly used his personal phone to share information about U.S. military operations in Yemen in a Signal Group chat that included his wife and brother. Hegseth denies the report. Separately, President Donald Trump denied an NPR report that the White House had begun the search for a new defense secretary. Number six U.S. and Iranian officials met in Italy with Omani intermediaries for a second round of discussions on Iran's nuclear program. The sides agreed to a third round of talks in Oman later this week. Number seven Harvard University sued the Trump administration, alleging that its freezing of roughly $2.2 billion in grants violated the First Amendment and other federal laws and regulations. Number eight DHL Express announced it would suspend deliveries of consumer packages to the US valued at over $800 due to new customs requirements imposed as part of the Trump administration's tariffs. Number nine Amid reports that President Donald Trump is considering firing Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell, U.S. markets declined Monday but rebounded on Tuesday morning. And number 10 education secretary Linda McMahon announced the federal government will resume collections on defaulted student loans on May 5. The collections had been paused since the start of the pandemic.
- [07:04]
Dog Owner
Breaking news of the hour from the Vatican Pope Francis has died. The 88 year old pontiff passed away just hours after he surprised many by addressing the Easter Sunday crowd at 6, even riding through the square in his famous popemobile. He also held a meeting at the Vatican with Vice President J.D. vann.
- [07:25]
John
On Monday, the Vatican announced Pope Francis died at the age of 88. Francis, the Catholic Church's 266th pope, had led the church since 2013 as a relatively progressive pontiff, grounding many of his beliefs in social and economic justice. The pope's cause of death was identified as a stroke that led to a coma and heart failure. The stroke followed his February 14th hospitalization with double pneumonia. He recovered and was released from the hospital on March 23, but made few public appearances. On Sunday, he blessed a crowd of thousands in St. Peter's Square after Easter Mass, his final public appearance. Pope Francis was born Jorge Mario Bergoglio in Argentina, making him the first pope from the Americas and from the Jesuit Order, a religious order of clerics within the Catholic Church. He was ordained as a Jesuit priest in 1969 and was made a cardinal in 2001 by Pope John Paul II. In 2013, Francis was elected pope after the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI amid widespread internal conflict over the church's administration, financial management and response to the burgeoning sexual abuse crisis early in his papacy, Pope Francis sought to address these issues, spearheading efforts to reform the Vatican's finances, overhaul its bureaucracy, while making significant moves to decentralize the church's power structure. He initially took less concrete action to address the church's sexual abuse scandals and at times faced criticism for appearing to defend accused church members, but later implemented new procedures for responding to allegations of sexual misconduct. Notably, the pope also formally apologized to groups around the world for the church's past actions. Francis brought other significant changes to the church, pursuing more inclusive policies, centering the plight of migrants and marginalized groups, and speaking out on contemporary issues like climate change and President Donald Trump's policies. He wrote several papal encyclicals urging world leaders to take action on environmental issues and attempted to make more inroads with the Islamic world and China to repair strained relationships. Furthermore, he criticized Israel's military campaign in Gaza and reiterated his call for a ceasefire in the conflict. In his final public address on Sunday during the 2016 presidential election, Francis controversially responded to a question about then candidate Trump's proposal to build a wall along the U S. Mexico border by saying, a person who thinks only about building walls wherever they may be and not building bridges is not Christian. In February, he also criticized the Trump administration's deportation efforts and appeared to directly rebuke Vice President J.D. vance for suggesting that Catholic doctrine justified these policies. On Sunday, the pope met briefly with Vance, who visited the Vatican over the weekend. After the Vatican announced the pope's death, Vance posted on X that he was happy to see him yesterday, though he was obviously very ill and shared a homily Francis delivered In the early days of the COVID 19 pandemic. President Trump ordered flags to be flown at half mast in honor of the pope's passing. The Church will now hold a papal election called a conclave to choose the 267th pope, who is elected by a two thirds majority of the College of Cardinals. Today we'll share reactions to Pope Francis death from the right and the left, and then Isaac's Take foreign.
- [11:05]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [11:10]
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- [11:41]
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- [12:19]
John
All right, first up, let's start with what the right is saying. The right acknowledges Pope Francis steadfast concern for the poor, but suggests his papacy did not help the interests of disadvantaged groups. Some say the pope's legacy will be a failed attempt at progressive reformation. Others say his messaging on global issues hurt the church's credibility. The Wall Street Journal editorial board said Pope Francis championed the poor while favoring ideas that kept them poor. Pope Francis was best known for urging concern for the poor in the best Christian tradition. He called for a clergy of shepherds who have the smell of their sheep, that is priests and nuns who shared the suffering of their neighbors. He made support for the weakest among us, the rhetorical centerpiece of his papacy, the board wrote. Alas, Pope Francis believed ideologies that keep the poor in poverty. One of those earthly dogmas is radical environmentalism, which isn't about keeping the earth clean for human beings, but keeping the earth for itself and treating man as the enemy. His papacy was marked by anti Americanism and not merely against Donald Trump. He seemed to believe that Latin America is poor because the United States is rich. That's a recipe for stagnation and despair because the real reason so many in Latin America languish in poverty are at home, the board said. The irony is that this progressivism is most popular in places like Europe, where the Sunday pews are empty. The church is thriving in Africa and among younger orthodox Catholics in the west, looking for meaning in life beyond material consumption. In the Federalist, John Daniel Davidson argued, the legacy of Pope Francis is chaos, confusion and division. As archbishop of Buenos Aires Jorge Bergoglio, Francis was politically on the left, with strong anti American and anti conservative tendencies that would manifest themselves in the years to come. But he also had a reputation in Argentina for personal austerity and humility. Doctrinal conservatism and working closely with the poor. It was possible in those very early days to imagine that he could have been a pontiff to bring together the warring factions of the church and forge a path into the 21st century for a united Catholic church, davidson wrote. But it wasn't to be. It didn't take long for liberal reformers in the Catholic hierarchy, especially those in Western Europe who had done so much to elect him, to see that in Francis they had a pope that would be willing, for his own reasons, to push the boundaries of Catholic doctrine on contentious moral issues like homosexuality, marriage and divorce, and the ordination of women, Davidson said. Under Francis, great changes in the Catholic Church always seemed to be on the way but never arrived in full time. And again, what Francis gave with one hand, he withdrew with the other. The result was not some big reform or change in doctrine leading to schism, but deepening chaos and division in a church already on the brink of open war. In the Washington Post, George Weigel wrote, pope Francis oversaw a steep decline in the Vatican's role as a global witness. Francis was much appreciated for his personal warmth and many public displays of compassion for troubled souls. But the Vatican's declining influence on the world stage was another and lamentable feature of his papal tenure, Weigel said. The gravest of Francis mistakes was a 2018 agreement with Beijing that gave the Chinese Communist Party a leading role in the appointment of Catholic bishops in China and led at one point to the Chinese regime unilaterally changing the boundaries of the country's Catholic diocese. Then there was Ukraine. Although the Argentine pope eventually requested prayers for martyred Ukraine, he originally blamed the conflict partly on NATO barking at Russia's doors and later termed the war one of imperial interests, not just of the Russian empire but but of empires from elsewhere, weigel wrote. And there was also what seemed to many to be a further indulgence of moral equivalence. The Pope's commentary during the first days of Israel's response to the Hamas massacre on October 7, 2023, which did unnecessary damage to Catholic Jewish relations while further eroding the Vatican's stature as a voice of moral all right, that is it for what the right is saying. Which brings us to what the left is saying. The left praises Pope Francis legacy on humanitarian issues and the reforms he brought to the church. Some say that while the pope's record was imperfect, he ultimately made the church a more inclusive place. Others suggest that the church will elect a more conservative pope in line with global shift to the right. The Washington Post editorial board said. Pope Francis pulled the Catholic church into the 21st century. Francis was initially expected to focus mainly on cleaning up a scandal plagued Vatican. Instead, he fashioned a profoundly reformist papacy, deeply divisive within the Roman Catholic Church that sought to fundamentally reorient the institution as more liberal and less beholden to its own hierarchy, which he left less white, less Eurocentric and less bound by traditional. These shifts made the church decidedly more global, modern and inclusive, the board wrote. His new thinking triggered resentments and fury from traditionalists who saw him as abandoning core church principles as well as despair some liberals who wished for an even more sweeping and substantive overhaul. Francis fought for the right fights. He embraced the struggle against climate change and the plights of persecuted religious minorities, the poor in the global south and migrants and refugees in whose honor he unveiled a monument in St. Peter's Square, the board wrote. The extent to which Francis legacy will endure is likely to be determined largely by the selection of his successor. He will be chosen by members of the College of Cardinals under the age of 80, a cohort now dominated by prelates picked by Francis himself, many of them like him from Africa, Asia or South America. In msnbc, Guthrie Graves Fitzsimmons wrote about what Pope Francis meant to LGBTQ Christians like me. The late pope's non judgmental approach to LGBTQ issues did not go far enough for many LGBTQ advocates, but it's important to judge his legacy in the context of the Catholic Church and to recognize how remarkable his approach was given the institutional norms that for decades suppressed and ignored LGBTQ devotees, Graves Fitzsimmon said. For many LGBTQ Christians like myself, the changes Francis championed feel personal. I've experienced both the sting of exclusion and the quiet hope that perhaps one day church pews will be filled with all those who long to find God's love, regardless of whom they love. The Vatican did back up the merciful media soundbites reverberating around the world with some substantive policy changes, including allowing transgender people to be baptized and serve as godparents and allowing priests to offer blessings of same sex couples. These changes did not amount to full equality, but they were meaningful progress toward recognizing the God given dignity of LGBTQ people, graves Fitzsimmons wrote. France's plea for mercy for the vulnerable, whether LGBTQ people or migrants, is both remarkable and basic Christianity. In many ways, it's a sad reflection of what we expect of Christian leaders to find Pope Francis so revolutionary. In Jacobin, Pablo Castagno suggested, After Pope Francis, a Catholic move rightward seems likely. There may come a time when we look back on the last decade as an anomaly in the modern history of the Catholic Church. Pope Francis, the figurehead of these years and a radical by the standards of the Catholic hierarchy, is gone and we are now likely to see a major shift in the political orientation of the Holy See, castagno said. Francis ascension to the papacy marked a break with the geopolitical orientation of his predecessors as he aligned the Holy See much more closely with the global South. While John Paul II had been much a staunch ally of Washington in the so called fight against communism, Francis made sure to distance himself from Western governments on issues such as relations with China, Ukraine and Palestine. It is difficult to predict the outcome of the forthcoming conclave. However, there are strong reasons to believe that Francis successor will be a more conservative pope. First, his pontificate has been slightly transformative both institutionally and in its public messaging, making it unlikely the cardinals will choose another candidate equally inclined toward reform, castagna wrote. Perhaps more importantly, although the Sistine Chapel has thick walls, the Vatican is invariably influenced by global political trends. With Trump in the White House and with the far right on the rise worldwide, electing another pope as progressive as Francis would be swimming against the tide. And the Vatican has a long history of adapting to changing realities rather than confronting them. All right, let's head over to Isaac for his take.
- [21:41]
Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. So a couple times a month I'll start a take by saying this is not an area I feel particularly knowledgeable about, and this is one of those times. Being a U.S. politics reporter does not typically lead one to become an expert on the pope or the Catholic Church. A lot of Catholic writers or beat reporters, some cited above, who cover the Vatican and religious news regularly are more experts on this stuff and you should trust them more than me. But Pope Francis passing does matter to me as a person of faith, a Jew who spent a lot of time studying various religions, thinking about faith and God and paying attention to Pope Francis rise. Pope Francis also matters to me as a politics reporter whose view of the world is through a Western US centric lens. The pope is not only a religious leader but a head of state, and Francis had a particular worldview and political approach that was not easy to ignore. He wasn't afraid to kick the bushes, to take a stand, or to shake up an institution that needed it. For instance, I believe the Bible is unambiguous about how we should treat the poor and refugees, the resistance we should have toward war and violence and the tolerance we should express toward others, even those we view as sinners. The Pope seemed to embody those principles. He at least attempted to usher in a more vibrant and inclusive church, which I don't just mean in the modern, progressive sense of inclusion. He was not a liberal in a Western sense. Yes, he was more accepting of gay and trans people than other major religious figures, which to some was good and to others was bad. But he also understood that Catholicism's relevance was fading and the church's reputation was in tatters. So he looked upon the church's traditions and assumptions with fresh eyes, which sometimes led to a more liberal, coded decision making. During the conclave that led to his election, he called on the church not just to open its windows and let in some fresh air, but to get out and go to the places where the people are. He was also outspoken about a number of very real issues one might expect the Pope to be outspoken about. He did not shy away from speaking truth about the horrors of Gaza and war more broadly, a truth we have all become too numb to. He spoke on behalf of the billions of people living in poverty, especially in the global south, and he framed environmentalism as a will to cherish the gift God gave us in planet Earth. And it is a gift. During moments of darkness, like the outbreak of COVID he offered powerful and moving words of guidance. I was actually happy to see JD Vance share this homily that he gave right as Covid broke out in honor of the Pope on Sunday, advocating for the poor, resisting war, demanding we love the planet, comforting the masses in perilous times. These strike me as deeply valuable and obvious actions for the Pope to take, and they seem to me Catholic teachings that are as vital as ever in the year 2025. But like all men, he obviously had flaws. He took too long to implement real reforms to address the church's sexual assault scandals, and spent too much time providing cover for some of the church's worst actors. He waded into some global conflicts in ways I found shockingly ignorant, like when he blamed Russia's invasion of Ukraine on NATO encroachment, or seemed to softly excuse the murdering of French cartoonists for satirical drawings of Muhammad, insisting one cannot make fun of faith. He did indeed champion the poor, but he did so by demonizing wealth and comfort, blaming all manner of ails across the world on countries like the United States, even when we didn't deserve it. He did this while cozying up to China, despite its own abhorrent record on human rights, and even as it imprisoned Jimmy Lai, perhaps the most prominent Catholic in the whole country. One idea that does not seem in doubt is that Pope Francis introduced some chaos to the papacy. He famously said he wanted a mess, and he seemed to have gotten one. His edicts were frequently controversial or unclear. His pontificate surfaced divisions among Catholics, and his time as pope ends with a widespread expectation that his replacement will share a different worldview than his. That is a backlash against his papacy. With all his positive qualities, this is perhaps his greatest failure of all. The pope did not seem to move the hearts and minds of many of his detractors. He was disruptive, undoubtedly. But was he persuasive? Will his views endure? Will his unorthodox approach resonate for centuries or even decades? Those answers seem much less clear to me, judging by the response to his death. He did more to fracture and frustrate than to unify and compel, which is a difficult legacy to endorse, even if you believed in many of its aims. We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [26:40]
John
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- [27:48]
Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for my take today. Which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Keelin in Denver, Colorado. Keelan said this year we have trillions of dollars of debt coming due and that needs to be refinanced. That debt currently has a lower rate, about 2% ish, and rates are double that right now. If we refinance that debt at a higher rate, we will automatically be paying billions of more in interest for nothing. A case could be made that we actually want Trump to crash the economy, lower the interest rate, refinance the debt that is coming due, and not pay hundreds of billions of dollars in debt. It will be painful for many, but ultimately save our country billions of dollars. If this actually were Trump's grand plan, would this not be a good thing for the broader economic picture? Okay, so first of all, we really don't know if that benefit would be worth the cost. But more importantly, it's probably not going to happen at all. Yes, it's true that nearly $3 trillion of U.S. debt, much of it short term, will mature in 2025. Since the government routinely runs a deficit, it won't be able to pay its debts from revenue and will instead have to refinance that debt or take out new loans to pay bondholders back. That would mean, in theory, that the government would want lower interest rates on new bonds to reduce its future debt. When we talked about what Trump wanted from issuing individualized global tariffs and pursuing a high effective tariff rate, which by the way, is higher today than it was before Trump announced the pause, we mentioned all the goals we were hearing from the administration. Spur manufacturing, negotiate better trade deals, and as championed by Treasury Secretary Scott Besant, bring down the yield on treasury notes, a goal driven in large part by a desire to refinance government debt at a lower interest rate. Which is to say, yes, this is a goal of the administration, at least. As some members of the administration stated, if rates were going to drop below 3%, that would certainly be a good thing for the government's debt problem, though arguably not worth the turmoil that accompanies tariffs. But that's hypothetical. While the interest on the 10 year t note did drop following the initial tariff announcement, it then began to climb as foreign bondholders, including important geopolitical allies, started selling instead of buying new bonds. The yield has since fluctuated and is now nowhere close to dropping under 4%, let alone 3%. Furthermore, $7.6 trillion in government bonds, the 31% of all US government debt at the time, already matured over the 12 month Spanish starting in September of 2023, meaning that the right time to address this particular fiscal problem may have already passed. All right, that is it for your questions answered. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace.
- [30:36]
John
Thanks, Isaac. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. Elon Musk's SpaceX and two partners are reportedly the top contenders to win the government contract to build key parts of a US Missile defense system. The Pentagon has received interest from more than 180 companies seeking to work with the next generation missile defense shield specified in President Trump's January 27th executive order. SpaceX's bid, which includes software maker Palantir and drone builder Anduril, proposes building and launching 400 to 1,000 satellites to sense missiles and track their movement, in addition to a separate fleet of 200 attack satellites armed with missiles or lasers. SpaceX has also broached the idea of establishing this system as a subscription service that the government would pay to access rather than owning it outright. White House officials stress that their planning for the system is still in the early stages. Reuters has this story, and there's a link in today's episode Description alright, next up is our numbers section. The average length in years of the tenures of the Catholic Church's first 265 popes is 7.5. The length in years of Pope Francis Papacy was 12. The number of states and territories visited by Pope Francis is 65. The number of new saints created by Pope Francis is 942, the most of any pope in history. The number of days after a pope's death or resignation that the College of Cardinals begins the process of electing a new pope is 15 to 20. The number of members of the College of Cardinals appointed by Popes Francis, Benedict XVI and John Paul II, respectively is 108, 22 and 6. The percentage of U.S. catholics who expressed a favorable view of Pope Francis in March of 2013 was 84%, according to Pew Research. The percentage of U.S. catholics who expressed a favorable view of Pope Francis in February 2025 was 78%. And the percentage of U.S. catholics who leaned Democratic and Republican, respectively, who expressed a favorable view of Pope Francis in February 2025 was 88% and 69%. And last but not least, our have a nice day story in honor of Earth Day, Jefferson County, Colorado provides a story of resilience and regrowth. Last summer, the Quarry fire burned through 579 acres of quartz forest in and around the county, leaving the area in need of replanting. Most plant nurseries begin growing trees for fire recovery projects one year after a fire, but one Canopy, a local nursery that keeps thousands of seeds frozen and on hand, began growing trees for Jefferson county within months. We might not be able to sit under the shade of these trees, but the hope is the future generations will, and that's why we do what we do, one canopy director of operations Kaitlyn Martinez said. Yahoo News has this story and there's a link in today's episode Description alright everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to retangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership, or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Maul signing off. Have a great day all. Peace.
- [34:05]
Isaac Saul
Our Executive Editor and founder is me, Isaac Zahl and our Executive Producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will Kaback and Associate Editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead Bailey, Saul Lindsey Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@retangle.com.
- [34:43]
Dog Owner
I want my dog to live a long, happy life. Maybe even hit 19. So I feed them Ollie. Ollie's fresh and nutritious human grade meals are made to support their health and happiness with protein packed recipes dogs go crazy for like beef with sweet potatoes, turkey with blueberries or lamb with cranberries. Honestly, you might start thinking, dang, my dog eats better than I do. And that's probably true when it comes to ollie. Head to ollie.com healthypup and use code healthypup to get 60% off your first box of meals. Plus they offer a clean bowl guarantee on the first box so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's o l l I-e.com HealthyPup and enter code HEALTHYPUP to get 60% off your first box. Feed your forever friend with Ollie.
- [35:28]
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Support for this podcast and the following message is brought to you by E Trade from Morgan Stanley. With E Trade you can dive into the market with easy to use tools, zero dollar commissions and a wide range of investments. And now there's even more to love. Get access to industry leading research and insights from Morgan Stanley to help guide your decisions. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Get started today@etrade.com terms and other fees apply. Investing involves Risks Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPIC etrade is a business of Morgan Stanley. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at progressive. Com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.