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- [00:00]
Commercial Announcer
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- [00:32]
Movie Trailer Narrator
Pattinson star in Die My Love, a ferocious portrait of a woman engulfed by love and madness. Lawrence and Pattinson play a passionate couple who, after moving to an isolated house in the country, find their relationship unraveling following the birth of their first child. Vanity Fair hails Lawrence's performance as astonishing, and Time calls it the kind of performance you go to the movies for. From director Lynne Ramsey, Die My Love is Only in theaters November 7th.
- [00:56]
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- [01:23]
John Lal
From executive.
- [01:24]
Isaac Saul
Producer Isaac Saul this is Tangle.
- [01:38]
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host Isaac Saul, and on today's episode we're going to be talking about the east wing demolition at the White House and the proposed ballroom that is going to replace it. Before we jump in, I gotta give you a heads up that on Friday I published this opinion essay, which was half free, half behind a paywall, both on the website and the podcast. The piece generated a ton of commentary. I'm glad it was read by a lot of people, seemingly, which you know, as a writer is always what you want. There's over a thousand comments on the article on our website. It got picked up and aggregated by a few news outlets and because of that I have decided that we're just gonna drop the paywall on it on the Tangle podcast and the Tangle website. And I'm doing that because it's kind of just getting sprayed all over the Internet anyway, so people who are subscribers to Tangle should be able to access it when other people, reporters, media folks, whatever, are paying for it and then aggregating and sharing it and putting a bunch of that content out from behind the paywall. Obviously this is not something we do super often. We want our memberships and subscriptions to drive value for people, but given the interest in this piece, it feels like at the very least our audience, those of you listening here or subscribed to the newsletter should be able to read it for free. So it's out there, it's up now. We'll publish a podcast version of it that doesn't have the paywall or remove the paywall from one in our feed and hopefully you guys can listen to it there. And thank you for listening and reading. And if you like it and you listen to it or read it for the first time, don't forget to become a member because this is the kind of subscribers only work that we do and and it is your memberships that make it possible. All right, with that, I'm going to send it over to John for today's main topic and I'll be back for my take.
- [03:58]
John Lal
Thanks Isaac and welcome everybody. Hope y' all had a wonderful weekend. I know I did. I was in Irvine, California with most of the Tangle team for the Tangle Live event. It was a really great time. Lots of the Tangle community getting together. It was so nice to meet so many people who have written in to the podcast and the newsletter and put faces to the names and it was a great discussion between Isaac, Anna Kasparian, Alex Thompson and Camille Foster. We actually did record the entire event and a couple of pre interviews before the event that we are going to be editing and putting out soon. So if you missed the event, you'll get an opportunity to watch it soon. In response to my question last week about finding inner peace, quite a few people wrote in Karen suggested going on a retreat or creating an inviting, serene space for some quiet meditation time. Amy also suggested mindfulness meditation. Natalie said that she finds peace in prayer, scripture study, and going to church, as well as remembering to take care of her needs. Lisa makes beautiful thank you cards and shares them with people who do something kind like hold the door or make eye contact and smile. Mike likes to look up at the night sky and contemplate the absolute insignificance of humanity compared to the infinite vastness of the universe. Mike, I do that too. Sometimes I'll just lie in my backyard and stare up at the sky or in an open field and it really is peaceful. Nikki had a couple of suggestions such as hiking alone, dining with her husband and sons, hugs, which she calls peace. Quick hits. I love that. And reading in the morning before anyone else wakes up, which does sound really peaceful. Folks, thank you so much for writing in. Really appreciate these answers. Hope those of you out there in the community are are getting some good pieces of advice. Just some things to think about and maybe a little joy out of these answers. My question for you this week is what's something that you'd love to experience again for the first time? I can think of a few things. Meeting my wife for the first time or the first time we traveled together. She took me on my first big trip to Europe I had never been and then made me catch the travel bug. And now I can't possibly live without traveling at least once a year. My daughter's birth. I guess there's a billion things. But I want to hear what you'd love to experience again for the first time. So please write in to me. Johnj.o niedtangle.com and as always, let's use this time to bring the best of ourselves to everything that we do in the hopes of spreading just a little bit of peace, joy and positivity. All right, with all that said, here are your quick hits for today. First up, President Donald Trump began the first leg of a five day Asia trip in Malaysia with where he participated in a regional summit of Southeast Asian nations and announced preliminary trade agreements with Malaysia, Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam. Trump plans to meet with newly elected Japanese Prime Minister Sanae Takaichi on Monday. Separately, the United States and China announced the framework of a trade deal, which President Trump will discuss during a meeting with Chinese leader Xi Jinping later this week. Number two Argentinian President Javier Milei's La Libertad Avanza party won approximately 41% of the vote in the country's national elections. The party outperformed polling expectations following months of protests against his administration's spending cuts and the country's economic challenges. Number three Two US Navy aircraft crashed during separate incidents over the South China Sea. The Navy said both aircraft were performing routine operations and all crew members were rescued. Number four Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth ordered the USS Gerald R. Ford aircraft carrier to relocate from the Mediterranean Sea to the US Southern Command region off of South America. Hegseth said the deployment will support the military's efforts to disrupt illicit actors and activities in the region. And number five, Hurricane Melissa, strengthened to a Category 5 storm with maximum sustained winds of 160 miles per hour. The hurricane is expected to make landfall in Jamaica early this week.
- [08:14]
Isaac Saul
President Trump's massive demolition of the East Wing is now complete. It'll be replaced with part of President Trump's 90,000 square foot ballroom. The cost of which has now ballooned to $350 million.
- [08:26]
White House Architect or Spokesperson
It won't interfere with the current building. It won't be. It'll be near it but not touching it, and pays total respect to the existing building, which I'm the biggest fan of. It's my favorite. It's my favorite place. I love it. We determined that after really a tremendous amount of study with some of the best architects in the world, we determined that really knocking it down, trying to use a little section, you know, the East Wing was not much. In order to do it properly, we had to take down the existing structure.
- [08:58]
John Lal
Over the past week, construction crews have demolished the White House's East Wing to make way for a new ballroom to host large events for world leaders and other guests. After initially saying the project would not impact existing infrastructure, President Donald Trump acknowledged on Wednesday that the entire East Wing would be destroyed by Thursday. It was completely raised. The Trump administration says a new East Wing will be built along with the ballroom for context. In July, President Trump unveiled plans to construct a 90,000 square foot ballroom that that would cost approximately $200 million. Trump also said the project would be funded entirely by himself and private donors. The White House has since released a list of 37 of those donors. White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt said the East Wing would be modernized as part of the construction process. The White House is one of a few federal buildings, along with the US Capitol and the Supreme Court, that are not subject to review under the National Historic Preservation act, which assesses new construction projects impacting federal buildings. Instead, by law, the current renovation falls under the purview of the National Capital Planning Commission. The NCPC board is composed of the chairs of the House and Senate oversight committees, Washington, D.C. mayoral appointees, heads of federal agencies and three presidential appointees. The Trump administration says it will submit its ballroom plans to the commission, but contends that the oversight panel does not have authority over the East Wing demolition. The demolition has drawn criticism from Democratic lawmakers and some historians from over its speed and scale. It's not his house, it's your house and he's destroying it, former first lady and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton wrote on X. In a statement, the Society of Architectural Historians said such a significant change to a historic building of this import should follow a rigorous and deliberate design and review process. Others have questioned the private funding structure and the cost of the project, particularly after President Trump said the new estimated cost was in the neighborhood of 30 $300 million. In response to the criticism, the Trump administration published a list of White house renovations and additions under previous presidential administrations, including the building of the west wing in 1902, the construction of the modern rose garden in 1962, and the refurbishment of the executive mansion in 1993. Leavitt attributed the change in initial plans to counsel from the architects and the construction companies that a more substantial construction project was required to build a truly strong and stable structure. Today we'll share views from the right and the left on the East Wing, demolition and ballroom construction, and then Isaac's tape.
- [11:44]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [11:49]
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- [12:20]
Isaac Saul
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- [13:21]
John Lal
Alright, first up, let's start with what the right is saying. The right mostly finds Trump's project in line with past renovations. Some say the ballroom meets a real need for present and future administrations. Others criticize Trump's disregard for the history of the East Wing. National Review's editors wrote, no, Trump isn't destroying the White House. This, to put it plainly, is a non story, a freakout, a fiction spun from whole cloth, the editor said. As a general matter, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the President making changes to the White House. Nor for that matter, is there anything sinister about his approving complicated construction projects that involve the temporary removal of one of its walls. Over the years, precedents of both parties and of all leadership styles have done precisely this, and nobody has cared one whit. There is nothing different or even particularly interesting about President Trump's decision to replace a bunch of 1940s era East Wing office buildings with a ballroom. Nor is it unusual for this alteration to have been paid for with private funds, the editors wrote. Adding a ballroom is not akin to destroying the White House. Using mechanical diggers to prepare for renovations is not moving or scary or poignant or worthy of elevated emotions. Altering a modern part of the executive branch's headquarters is not in any sense sullying your house. In the New York Times, Ross Douthat argued the demolition needed to happen, Trump being Trump. The ballroom project is proceeding without much external consultation and with a whiff of private donor corruption. But many of the complaints from outraged liberals are more historical and aesthetic, accusing Trump of bulldozing American heritage to build something crass and gaudy in its place, douthit said. And those arguments illustrate a consistent problem with progressive stewardship of American cities, which mixes admirable impulses toward aesthetic preservation with two related a failure to make room for the necessity of substantial development and change, and a failure to apply the same aesthetic sensibility to new developments that it applies to the older ones. It is simply good to build a White House ballroom. The presidency has needed one for a long time, and it's absurd that the leader of a superpower has to host state dinners inside temporary tents, duffett wrote. Exquisite care and sensitivity are part of the reason that in so many liberal leaning jurisdictions, apartment towers, power plants and high speed rail lines vanish into developmental limbo. It's just a small example of why Trump's bull in a China shop approach appeals. The president's eagerness to preempt objections and just do something that seems necessary is part of why voters find him attractive. In the Wall Street Journal, Colin Levy called the demolition unprecedented. We now live in a democracy in which a president, with neither public notice nor permission, demolished part of the White House and no one tried to stop him, such as the astonishing fiasco unfolding at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. A piece of American history lies in rubble as conservatives dismiss objections from historic preservationists as silly overreaction, levy said. Yes, alterations to the White House are natural, as presidencies need change over time. But such projects are meant to be incremental. Demolishing the East Wing and appending a 90,000 square foot ballroom is quite simply not the same thing. The response to the fall of the East Wing has been incomprehensibly political, as if desire to preserve a piece of American history was a partisan question. But the instinct to protect something quintessentially American is patriotism, not politics, levy wrote. History is important, monuments matter, and the home of the US President isn't just a building to be optimized for function. It is a symbol of power, legacy and national identity. Respect for the nation and all that it has built still matters. Alright, that is it for what the right is saying, which brings us to what the left is saying. Many on the left say the demolition embodies Trump's disregard for rules and norms. Some suggest Trump misled the public about the nature of the project. Others say the new ballroom will be a boon for the White House. In the architect's newspaper, Jack Murphy called the demolition the perfect metaphor for what Trump is doing to the United States. The demolition of the East Wing is likely illegal and as it proceeded without proper approvals from entities like the National Park Service and the National Capital Planning Commission during a government shutdown, murphy wrote. But legality doesn't seem like a concern for the current administration. Like so many Trump operations, facts and precedent were set aside in pursuit of power and personal enrichment. At first, $250 million was the listed price. This week, the number ballooned to 300 million, and Trump floated that he had received $350 million in donations, which may exceed the construction cost. The problem is not the renovation prompted by the supposed need for an event space with increased capacity, but rather the dismissal of proper procedure to alter what is one of the most recognizable symbols of American democracy. The images of the rubble, some even with American flags in the background or foreground, offer a perfect metaphor for what many believe the Trump administration is doing to the country, Murphy said, basically taking a wrecking ball to tradition and then assembling a slapdash new building. In the Atlantic, Jake Lundberg said more than the East Wing got demolished. The White House, as the administration's defenders of the project are keen to point out, has never been fixed in time. It has changed and grown with the presidents who have lived there, a living organism changing along with the nature of the presidency and the meaning of the republic, lundberg wrote. But summarily smashing part of it without telling people threatens the fundamental idea of the republic government by the people and for the people. Conducted in public view, the demolition of the East Wing steps outside the long standing framework that has governed changes to the building. In balancing the ideas of grandeur and restraint. The White House has been the site of a running conversation about what the presidency should say to the people it serves, murphy said. In its scale and placement, the addition leaves the site unbalanced, a structure now thrown off center, its sense of proportion lost, draped in oversized classical garb. It borrows the forms of tradition but not its discipline, the Washington Post editorial board wrote in defense of the White House ballroom. In classic Trump fashion, the president is pursuing a reasonable idea in the most jarring manner possible. Privately, many alumni of the Biden and Obama White Houses acknowledge the long overdue need for an event space like what Trump is creating. It is absurd that tents need to be erected on the South Lawn for state dinners, and VIPs are forced to use Porta Potties, the board said. Preservationists express horror that Trump did not submit his plans to their scrutiny. But the truth is that this project would not have gotten done, certainly not during his term, if the president had gone through the traditional review process. Trump joins a long list of presidents who have left their imprint on the White House. Theodore Roosevelt replaced greenhouses to construct the West Wing. William Howard Taft constructed the first oval office in 1909. Richard M. Nixon converted a swimming pool into the press briefing room in 1970. The modern East Wing wasn't even built until World War II to cover up an underground bunker. Harry S. Truman gutted the White House interior and added the balcony that bears his name. Purists decried it. Now it's a hallmark. Alright, let's head over to Isaac for his take.
- [21:06]
Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for the left and the writer saying, which brings us to my take. All right, Is it okay to say that I honestly just don't care that much. I'm sorry. Just given everything I wrote about on Friday, I'm having a hard time becoming emotionally invested in a White House construction project. Frankly, I struggle to understand why this event is dominating the news over the Changpeng Zhao pardon, the incoming Obamacare subsidy cliff, the latest inflation numbers, or the controversy over Maine's Democratic Senate candidate Graham Platner. I get that a lot of people strongly feel the need to attack or defend this construction project, but ultimately it is still a construction project on the White House, just like the others that came before it. The stakes of the president renovating his residence are just quite obviously much lower than sending the National Guard into US Cities, extrajudicial killings or using the Justice Department to prosecute his enemies. All things that I wrote about last Friday. And yet the ballroom story, the East Wing demolition is dominating them all Right now we found far more analysis about the ballroom project than say, the George Santos pardon, which I found shocking. One might expect a presidential pardon of a former congressman who was a convicted fraudster and spent time in prison, only to come out with a promise to dedicate himself to prison reform would generate a lot more commentary. But alas, as we always say, my take is just one of many and if this story matters to many other commentators, then we should cover it. This story seems like an example of liberal media bias to me, one where the sensibilities of a typical left leaning voter are offended. So the story generates an outsized amount of coverage in the left leaning press and then the conservative media ecosystem feels the need to respond. Since one of the biggest biases at media companies is story selection, my lack of conviction about this story's important isn't enough to justify us not talking about this issue. So let's talk about it as I see them. Here are the three best arguments in support of this project. 1 Many presidents have renovated the White House throughout its history, two Hosting large state events at the White House in pop up tents, albeit very nice ones, is really kind of embarrassing and 3 sensitivity over preservation and aesthetics, along with heavy handed oversight and regulation, showcases why it's hard to build in liberal run jurisdictions. And these are the three arguments critical of this project that most appealed to me. 1 this is the People's House, not Trump's, and a project like this demands more Care and Transparency 2 soliciting private donations provides another wide avenue for corruption and 3 the desire to preserve American history is not silly, it's patriotic. When it comes down to it, the arguments in favor are simply more convincing to me. Do I like the look of Trump's proposed ballroom? Not really, I think like the other upgrades he's made throughout the White House, it looks garish and tacky and a bit out of place. But I really don't care enough to write a thousand words about why I don't like the look of a renovation, and my reaction is similar to what it is for a lot of Trump stories. He's pursuing a totally reasonable goal that I support upgrading the White House in an absurd and bullish manner, ignoring preservation standards and opening the door for private donors to give the White House cash. I think the most likely outcome in this case is that the White House gets a new, perfectly acceptable ballroom, while a few historical artifacts get lost to time and and I expect this story will seem like a giant nothing burger in a few weeks. I'd be surprised honestly if the latest extension is anything but normal to pretty much everyone the moment a new occupant of the White House arrives. And I'm personally excited to move on to the many more pressing political stories we have to cover this week. All right, that is it for my take. We do have a staff to send today. It's actually my father, Bailey Saul, who's one of the editors on our team. So I'm going to pass it over to dad for his dissent and then I'll be back with your questions answered.
- [25:16]
Bailey Saul
Thanks, Isaac. While I agree that this story is not nearly as important as others happening right now, and that the White House could use a larger banquet facility, the temporary structures are already quite elegant and far less offensive to me. I think Isaac is underselling the three problems he listed a six lane highway for corruption, a complete disregard for the history of the building, and the monstrous size of this elephant which will dwarf the White House main building almost 2 to 1. It's not Trump's garish taste that offends me the most. It's his acting as if he's a permanent resident in a house that by definition is permanent to no one. And his tear it down first to get approve a later approach is also emblematic of how he runs the government. In fact, I think Isaac's and many others ho hum attitude speaks volumes about Trump's normalization of the utterly abnormal.
- [26:17]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [26:22]
Commercial Announcer
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- [26:54]
Movie Trailer Narrator
Pattinson star in Die My Love, a ferocious portrait of a woman engulfed by love and madness. Lawrence and Pattinson play a passionate couple who, after moving to an isolated house in the country, find their relationship unraveling following the birth of their first child. Vanity Fair hails Lawrence's performance as astonishing, and Time calls it the kind of performance you go to the movies for. From director Lynn Ramsey, Die My Love is Only in theaters November 7th. Rated R.
- [27:28]
Isaac Saul
All right, thanks, Bailey. Pops that' it for our staff dissent. Which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Jeff in Rochester, Minnesota. Jeff said, I'm wondering how the current U.S. deficit compares to last year. We hear how DOGE and the Office of Management and Budget, OMB are taking money away. But then we also hear about funding National Guard deployments, a new ballroom, military parade, et cetera. So I'm curious how much has been saved? Okay, so for various reasons, the deficit is just basically what it was last year. According to the Bipartisan Policy center, which tracks the federal deficit from month to month, the government has spent 1.78 trillion with a T dollars more than it has taken in throughout the fiscal year 2025. The previous fiscal year ended in September, a month in which the government ran a $164 billion surplus due to increased revenues from tariffs and decreased spending. At the Department of Education. Last year, by the way, the Department spent much more than it had in years prior to pay off the massive student debt cancellation program approved by President Joe Biden. After September Surplus, fiscal year 2025's total deficit comes in just under, just, just, just under fiscal year 2024's mark of $1.83 trillion. So 1.83 trillion in 2024 this year, $1.78 trillion in 2025. So far, some of the more visible measures that you listed in your question, the military parade, White House construction, National Guard deployments, they do not move the needle at all. Similarly, Doge cuts did not amount to significant savings, nor have personnel cuts through the omb. I really can't emphasize just how massive the federal government's budget is, that these tens of millions and sometimes even billions of dollars are literally rounding errors. So the Congressional Budget Office estimates that the unpaid salaries of federal employees during the government shutdown, which are not included in last month's number, could total as much as $400 million a day. So that's one asterisk that will obviously add up. $400 million a day over the course of a year, but we just don't have those numbers yet. It's all estimates, and we don't know where the cuts are going. All in all, government spending was 3% higher, $228 billion more and in 2025 fiscal year 2025, than it was in fiscal year 2024. The largest line item increases were the $245 billion in mandatory spending programs, Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. Those are the ones that move the needle. And $80 billion in interest on existing debt and $41 billion for veterans benefits. Meanwhile, payments to the Department of education decreased by $234 billion, again, mostly due to last year's debt cancellations, individual and payroll tax collections increased by $260 billion 6% and tariff collections increased by $118 billion, which was 153%. The bottom line to all of this? The estimated federal deficit slightly smaller than it was last year, but the government still tacked nearly $2 trillion onto the national debt, which now totals over 38 trillion trillion. All right, I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace.
- [30:58]
John Lal
Thanks Isaac. Here's your under the Radar story for today folks. According to the final rates approved by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, premiums for the most popular plans on the healthcare.gov insurance marketplace will increase by 30% on average in 2026. Since the federal marketplace's launch in 2014, annual premium increases have only surpassed 30% once in 2018, when premiums rose 37% from the year prior. Furthermore, expiring federal funding for tax credits that subsidize many insurance plans could double or triple health insurance payments for millions of Americans. Some insurers say they are increasing premiums because they expect relatively healthy people to drop their health coverage if Congress fails to extend enhanced Affordable Care act subsidies. The Washington Post has this story and there's a link in today's episode Description alright, next up is our numbers section. The White House's East Wing was built in 1902 during Theodore Roosevelt's administration. The East Wing was expanded to its modern size in 1942 during the Franklin Delano Roosevelt administration. Prior to its demolition, the area in square feet of the east wing was 12,000. The area in square feet of the proposed White House Ballroom that will be built in its place is 90,000. The area in square feet of the White House's main building is 55,000. The seating capacity of the White House State dining room is 140. The seating capacity of the White House's east room is 200. The planned seating capacity for the new White house Ballroom is 650. According to an October 2025 YouGov poll, 23% of U.S. adults say they approve of demolishing the White House's east wing, while 53% disapprove 33% of US adults approve of plans to renovate and build additions to the White House and 50% disapprove. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. Around 5 million people around the world suffer from the advanced form of dry age related macular degeneration which causes gradual incurable vision loss through the death of light sensitive cells in the central retina. Last Monday, however, a clinical trial led by University of Bonn ophthalmologist Frank Holtz showed promising results for people who receive a wireless retinal implant called Prima. Of the 32 patients in the trial who were tested A year later, 26 experienced a clinically meaningful improvement in their vision. Where this dead retina was a complete blind spot, vision was restored, patients could read letters, they could read words, and they could function in their daily lives, holtz wrote. Nature has this story and there's a link in today's episode description alright everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to retangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Lal signing off. Have a great day, y'. All. Peace.
- [34:04]
Isaac Saul
Our executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our executive producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will Kaback and Associate editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead Bailey, Saul Lindsey Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@retangle.com.
- [34:44]
Commercial Announcer
AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation@rubrik.com that's R U B R-I K.com Jennifer Lawrence and Robert.
- [35:15]
Movie Trailer Narrator
Pattinson star in Die My Love, a ferocious portrait of a woman engulfed by love and madness. Lawrence and Pattinson play a passionate couple who, after moving to an isolated house in the country, find their relationship unraveling following the birth of their first child. Vanity Fair hails Lawrence's performance as astonishing, and Time calls it the kind of performance you go to the movies for. From director Lynn Ramsey, Die My Love is Only in theaters November 7th.
- [35:40]
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