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- [00:00]
Advertiser/Host for Ads
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John Law
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Isaac Saul
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John Law
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Isaac Saul
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John Law
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Isaac Saul
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John Law
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Advertiser/Host for Ads
From executive producer Isaac Saul. This is Tangle.
- [02:06]
Isaac Saul
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place where we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're gonna be talking about President Donald Trump's attempt to fire Lisa Cook. She is one of the governors at the Federal Reserve, and this is the biggest test of the Federal Reserve's independence yet. So we're gonna break down exactly what's going on, share some views from the left and the right and and then my take before we jump in, I want to give you guys a quick heads up about something really fun that we have going on. We are looking for passionate, curious and driven college students to join our college ambassador program. If you care about journalism, politics, or media and want hands on experience working with an organization like Tangle. This is your chance. Tangle ambassadors represent Tangle on their campus, spearheading creative outreach efforts to engage fellow students. They also make connections with ambassadors at other schools to share ideas and strategies with a focus on building skills in media, marketing and organizing. This is a paid position requiring two to four hours per week during the fall semester. We have applications open today from August 27th until September 5th. If you know someone who is interested, we are accepting applications with a link that is in today's episode description and also in our newsletter today. We'll or you can email willkback will W I l l@readtangle.com with any questions. All right, with that I'm gonna send it over to John for today's main show and I'll be back for my take.
- [03:48]
John Law
Thanks Isaac and welcome everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up in some breaking news, law enforcement is responding to a shooting at a church in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Authorities say two children were killed and the suspected shooter is also dead. Number two A federal judge dismissed a lawsuit filed by the Trump administration against 15 active and senior federal judges in Maryland. The administration had challenged their ruling that barred federal immigration officials from immediately removing migrants who are challenging the legality of their detentions. U.S. district Judge Thomas Cullen found the administration did not have the legal right to sue. Number three A Utah judge threw out the state's congressional maps and directed the Legislature to draw new districts in compliance with a 2018 ballot initiative that banned partisan gerrymandering. Number four the Trump administration is reportedly reinstating neighborhood checks to vet immigrants applying for U.S. citizenship, in which U.S. citizenship and Immigration Services officials interview applicants, neighbors and co workers. Number five US Health officials confirmed a case of myiasis caused by the New World screwworm in a Maryland resident, the first travel associated case of the parasitic infection since 2024. Mexico and Central America are fighting a screwworm outbreak in cattle and humans, but health officials said the risk of contagion in the Maryland area is low. Number six Ukrainian officials said Russia's military has crossed into the eastern industrial region of Dnieper Petrovsk following an offensive that began in June.
- [05:32]
Advertiser/Host for Ads
President Trump says that he is firing.
- [05:34]
John Law
Federal Reserve governor Lisa Cook.
- [05:36]
Advertiser/Host for Ads
He posted an official White House letter.
- [05:38]
John Law
Addressed to Cook on Truth Social, and.
- [05:40]
Advertiser/Host for Ads
The White House told Cook in that.
- [05:42]
John Law
That she was removed because there was, quote, sufficient reason to believe that she.
- [05:47]
Advertiser/Host for Ads
Meaning Cook, may have made false statements.
- [05:50]
John Law
On one or more mortgage agreements.
- [05:53]
Advertiser/Host for Ads
Trump previously threatened to fire Cook if.
- [05:55]
John Law
She didn't resign over the mortgage fraud allegations. And just last week, Cook, who was appointed by Biden, said she had no intention of stepping down. In a letter posted to Truth Social on Monday night, President Trump ordered the removal of Federal Reserve governor Lisa Cook from her position for alleged mortgage fraud. Citing the Federal Reserve act of 1913 and his power under Article 2 of the Constitution, Trump stated that he was removing Cook for cause. Cook responded by saying that no cause exists under the law and that the president did not have the authority to fire her. Last week, Trump requested Cook's resignation due to her alleged fraud. Cook declined and said that she will sue Trump in response to his attempt to fire her. For context, President Trump has criticized the Federal Reserve Board of Governors and Fed Chair Jerome Powell for deciding not to lower the federal fund's effective rate, the central bank's interest rate for lending so far in his term. At the most recent meeting of the Fed board in August, Chairman Powell cited inflationary concerns as a reason not to lower interest rates. President Trump publicly considered firing Powell before opting against it. At the Federal Reserve's annual symposium in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, Powell indicated that the Fed would likely cut interest rates in September. We covered Trump's threats to fire Powell and you can check that out with a link in today's Episode Description in his open letter, Trump claimed, based on a report from Federal Housing Finance Agency Director Bill Polt, that Cook made conflicting statements in 2021 that amounted to mortgage fraud, first declaring a Michigan property as her primary residence and then signing a separate agreement two weeks later claiming a home in Georgia as her primary residence. The president argued that it was impossible for Cook to honor both agreements, saying that the alleged fraud constituted grounds for dismissal. Separately, the Trump administration also accused New York Attorney General Letitia James and Senator Adam Schiff, the Democrat from California, of mortgage fraud. Despite the order, whether Trump has the legal grounds to remove Koch from the Federal Reserve Board of Governors is unclear. In a statement on Tuesday, Cook's lawyer, Abbey David Lowell, said that Cook would be challenging her dismissal in court. Trump's attempt to fire her based solely on a reference letter lacks any factual or legal basis, Lowell said. A spokesperson for the Federal Reserve stated that the board will carry out its duties as established by law. Both the board and President Trump said they would abide by a court decision. Trump has highlighted the fact that if Cook's dismissal is successful, the Federal Reserve Board would be composed of a majority of his appointees. Lisa Cook was appointed by President Joe Biden in 2022. Today we'll get into what the left, right and financial writers are saying about Cook's firing and legal challenge and then Isaac's take.
- [08:47]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [08:53]
Advertiser/Host for Ads
If your dog could talk, they'd beg for Ollie. The full body tail wag, the excited little hops, the big goofy grin. That's the Ollie effect. Ollie delivers clean, fresh nutrition in five drool worthy flavors, even for the pickiest eaters. Made in US Kitchens with high quality human grade ingredients, Ollie's food contains no fillers, no preservatives, just real food. Just fill out Ollie's 30 second quiz and they'll create a customized meal plan based on your pup's weight, activity level and other health info. Dogs deserve the best and that means fresh, healthy food. Head to ollie.com healthypup Tell them about your dog and use code HEALTHYPUP to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box 30 so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O L L I-e.com HealthyPup and enter code HealthyPup to get 60% off your first box.
- [09:48]
John Law
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states all right, first up, let's start with what the left is saying. The left strongly opposes the move to fire Cook, with many saying it is counterproductive to Trump's goal of a rate cut. Others suggest the evidence against Cook is flimsy. The Bloomberg editorial board argued firing Lisa Cook won't bring down interest rates. The pressure from Trump isn't likely to make much of a difference in the Fed's rate decisions anytime soon. Both Powell and Cook, whose terms as chair and Governor extend to May 2026 and January 2038 respectively, enjoy strong job protections, the board wrote. Yet perceptions matter. If the Fed is even seen as doing the president's bidding, the repercussions will almost certainly be the opposite of what he wants. Longer term treasury bond yields, the benchmark for interest rates throughout the economy, will increase as investors worry that a weakened central bank will fail to contain inflation. In one signal, the Yield on the 30 year bond ticked up several basis points after the president moved to fire Cook. As of last week, markets still appear to believe in the Fed's independence. When Powell suggested at the Jackson Hole Economic Policy Symposium that a rate reduction could be coming in September, treasury yields declined significantly at all maturities, indicating confidence that the central bank remained in control, the board said. Hence, there's still a chance that despite complications introduced by misguided trade and fiscal policies, the central bank might achieve a soft landing in which it gets inflation down to its 2% target without causing a recession. In his substack, Paul Krugman wrote, trump's attempt to fire a Fed governor is illegal. Now we find out whether that matters. At this point, the immediate onus is on Jerome Powell, the Fed chairman. He has the right, I would say the obligation to say show me the legal basis for this action. If Trump's officials can't provide that basis, he should declare that as far as he is concerned, Cook is still a Fed, governor, krugman said. If Powell caves or the Supreme Court acts supine again and validates Trump's illegal declaration, the implications would be profound and disastrous. The United States will be well on its way to becoming Turkey, where an authority ruler imposed his crackpot economics on the central bank, sending inflation soaring to 80%. Even if true, the allegations against Cook wouldn't meet the standard for immediate dismissal from the Fed, krugman wrote. But of course, Trump's attempt to fire Cook has nothing to do with allegations of fraud. Her real crime, in his mind, is that she isn't an obedient minion. Oh, and that she's a black woman. The goal of his attempt to fire her is to replace independent Fed officials with lackeys who will take Trump's orders not just by getting rid of Cook, but by intimidating everyone else. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying. Which brings us to what the right is saying. The right is mixed on the move, with some saying that allegations against Cook are grounds for removal if proven. Others argue Trump's attempt to influence the Fed is no different than Democrats attempts to pack the Supreme Court in Red State. The blogger Bonci explored the criminal referral against Cook. Some experts have tried to claim that Cook's situation does not fall under the guise of cause when it comes to the authority of the president to remove Federal Reserve governors. But while the protections against removal afforded by the Bank act of 1935 appear to extend to policy decisions, as in a governor can't be fired for not lowering interest rates, the idea that personal misconduct doesn't qualify belabors believe Bonchi said such a position would presume that a president can't fire someone who allegedly committed fraud that stretches whatever protections exist far past the point of absurdity. Still, it likely won't be difficult for Cook to find a lower court judge to agree with her if she chooses to contest this. It's a legal battle she could very well lose in the end, though, which begs the question of whether it's smart to poke the bear. Her firing doesn't change the fact that she's under criminal investigation. She antagonizing the administration by suing over her removal won't do her any favors in the Hill. Merrill Matthews said Fed packing is no better than court packing Last year, Democrats and their media mouthpieces engaged in a steady months long stream of accusations of wrongdoing by certain conservative Supreme Court justices. Democrats wanted to pressure those justices to resign or even impeach them, matthews wrote. Now it appears that the scenario has flipped. President Trump and some in his administration are trying to do something similar only to the federal Reserv bank governors Court packing was wrong when Dems tried to do it, and Fed packing is wrong when Republicans try to do it. Even if Trump succeeds in firing Cook, it might not change the Fed's interest rate decisions. The Federal Open Market Committee that handles Fed policy decisions has changed its decision making process over the years, but the modern structure has 12 voting positions comprising the seven members of the Board of Governors and five of the 12 Federal Reserve bank presidents. Matthews said it's hard to see Trump's smear campaign as anything more than a desperate effort to gain control over the Federal Reserve bank and its policymaking process, which is exactly what the Fed's enabling legislation was intended to prevent. Alright, that is it for what the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to what financial writers are saying. Many financial writers express concern about how Cook's attempted firing will impact Fed independence. Some note the muted market reaction suggesting this move is not the five alarm fire some are making it out to be. The Financial Times editorial board argued Trump's intensifying assault on central bank independents risks backfiring. The assumption that the Fed will set rates based on its own economic judgments has been dealt a severe blow by Trump's determination to undermine it by undermining the central bank's credibility. He risks making the economic situation worse, the board wrote. Even if Cook is found guilty of falsifying mortgage statements, it is unclear if the courts will deem that sufficient for her to be fired. But if they did, it could erase any notion that the Fed is independent. In the interim, investors are increasingly pricing in the possibility of a captured Fed Following Trump's announcement on Cook, 30 year bond yields, which have remained uncomfortably elevated in the president's second term, nudged higher. The dollar weakened further too, the board said. These market moves are ultimately counterproductive for the president. Higher long term bond yields push up mortgage rates and public borrowing costs. A weak dollar adds to imported price pressures. If households and businesses expect the president will relentlessly undermine the Fed to get rates down, their inflation expectations may increase. That raises the chances of tariff related price increases becoming entrenched. In his post on X, Justin Slaughter, the vice president of regulatory affairs at Paradigm, shared his thoughts on the attempted firing. The Cook attempted firing will be litigated quickly, but not as quickly as folks seem to think. This process will take a few weeks even to wind its way to the Supreme Court. On whether the firing will be stayed pending litigation, Cook's vote for September's rate meeting will likely not be officially counted, slaughter wrote. Any message that this attempted firing is illegitimate isn't breaking through outside of academic democratic circles talking to a few traitors. Cook claiming two residences as primaries reads as an actual reason to relieve her for cause. The idea this action is beyond the pale just isn't the baseline take this act is a step towards the end of Fed independence, but not yet regarded as the main event. Meanwhile, there's no other global market as good as America even now. In fact, the dollar dropping even with the bond yields rising is probably going to help the Trump administration's goal of a somewhat weaker dollar, slaughter said. More than anything else so far, this fight over the Fed independence is the Dem's best chance to effect a rapprochement with the business community, but so far they're blowing it all. The messaging targeted at businesses seems to either be scolding the markets for not selling off more, or suggesting this attempted firing is neoliberalism. It speaks to the degree to which Dems have lost the muscle memory to engage with the private sector at all. Alright, let's head over to Isaac for his take.
- [18:32]
Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to my take. Let me start with a straightforward question. If Lisa Cook provided false information on one or more mortgage applications, is that enough cause to fire her? So many people are spending so much time debating other things here. Like is Trump trying to pressure the Fed to lower interest rates by firing Cook?
- [18:55]
Advertiser/Host for Ads
Is.
- [18:55]
Isaac Saul
If so, would that even work? What happens to the future of the US economy if markets don't believe the Fed is independent? What happens if Cook digs in and this becomes a true standoff, as seems likely. Why is Trump suddenly using mortgage fraud as a go to accusation to attack all his enemies? Is Cook even guilty? These are good and interesting and important questions, but the most important point to me is that even if Cook is guilty of the crime Trump says she is, I don't know if that's enough reason for the President to fire her logically or legally. The Supreme Court has been pretty clear that Trump can't remove Cook without cause, and whether lying on a mortgage form would qualify as cause is legitimately unclear. The actions at the root of the allegation happened before Cook was even in her post at the Fed, and they have nothing to do with the duties of her job. Of course, Trump's allegation remains unproven at this point, and it's the same one his administration has used against Senator Adam Schiff, the Democrat from California, and New York Attorney General Letitia James, another Democrat. Also, as I wrote yesterday, this alleged wrongdoing is pretty similar to the fraud Trump himself has been found liable for as a real estate mogul, inflating his assets or falsifying business records for favorable loan terms. Cook has not been convicted of or even charged with any crime, and until that happens, the hypothetical I raised above is moot. Trump can't fire her on suspicion of wrongdoing, and the courts need to take up Cook's lawsuit quickly and make that point crystal clear. Clear. All of this should elicit two major concerns from the voting population, none of which, by the way, have anything to do with Cook being black, which is what some Democrats can't help but focus on. First, the independence of the Federal Reserve now hangs in the balance. You've probably heard that the Fed board is one of the last remaining politically independent institutions, and that is, for the most part, true. The Federal Open Market Committee system is key. Its 12 seats are filled by five of the 12 regional bank presidents and seven appointed governors who serve on staggered terms. Governors cannot be removed for their policy making decisions, which protects their autonomy. So let's not play dumb here. Trump did not run some fraud dragnet through the Fed that Cook got caught up in. The director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency leveled this claim against Koch, and Trump is running with it, hoping to bend the institution to his will. If the independence of the Fed is lost, we're in big trouble. Global markets rely on the Fed being insulated from political pressure, and our market entrusts the Fed with containing inflation. If the Fed's independence is lost, the way its decisions are interpreted will change, and the eventual decisions that comprise our market will change as well. We got a hint of this already when the yield on the 30 year treasury bond went up after Trump moved to fire cook a signal, the market was worried the Fed might soon falter in its responsibility. Second, but most importantly, this move is the latest worrying development in a pattern of Trump tactics. Trying to remove someone who isn't delivering what he wants is not a new frontier for Trump, but doing it at the Fed is novel, and the sum total of his actions this term make me wonder whether he sees any real limits on his power. Arresting and deporting noncitizens for speech, deploying or threatening to deploy active duty military in major US cities to quell crime, promising to arrest and prosecute some of his top political foes, threatening lawsuits against the free press, forcing universities and law firms to settle lawsuits to retain federal funding, massively escalating the gerrymandering race that will further reduce our ability to pick our own representatives, and perhaps most worryingly, threatening to take greater federal control over elections. Last week, when Trump announced that he will attempt to end mail in voting, he described states constitutionally mandated electoral control this way. Quote, remember, the states are merely an agent for the federal government in counting and tabulating the votes. They must do what the federal government, as represented by the President of the United States, tells them. End quote. Now Trump is trying to fire a member of one of the most politically independent, deliberative bodies and most important financial institutions in the world, all at a time when he is pressuring that financial institution to make a policy decision it has so far resisted making. No corner of American life appears off limits to the President's personal influence. None of that is a statement in favor of liberal politics. In fact, decrying federal power is a classic American conservative principle. Nor is it an endorsement of the Democratic Party. You can think Democrats are a corrupt party that tried relentlessly to imprison and destroy Trump with every dirty political trick in the book and still criticize Trump's actions as president. You can believe Trump is the greatest president we've ever had, a once in a generation norm breaking, peace brokering voice of the common man who just pulled us back from the brink of our own destruction by Simply winning in 2024 and still believe he is drunk on power and going too far. You can believe he has the right stance on literally all of our biggest issues, desperately want to see him succeed on his policy prescriptions and still question the precedents he is leaving for the next president. The one who doesn't see the world how he does and consider how dangerous this all might be. All throughout the 2024 campaign, Trump promised to get revenge on his political enemies. Arrests, prison time, charges of treason. At the same time, he assured us of a new golden age under his leadership. So far, I've seen far more focus on revenge than ushering in that golden age. And I've left feeling more convinced than ever that presidents past, current and future have far too much power and far too few constraints for a country that was built on a desire to democratize power toward the many and away from the few. Love or loathe him, the public should feel compelled to draw lines in the sand on what we'll tolerate from our increasingly powerful presidents. And we should be able to see and state clearly that Trump is crossing those lines. We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [25:00]
Advertiser/Host for Ads
If your dog could talk, they'd beg for Ollie. The full body tail wag, the excited little hops, the big goofy grin. That's the Ollie effect. Ollie delivers clean, fresh nutrition in five drool worthy flavors, even for the pickiest eaters. Made in US Kitchens with high quality human grade ingredients, Ollie's food contains no fillers, no preservatives, just real food. Just fill out Ollie's 30 second quiz and they'll create a customized meal plan based on your pup's weight. Activity Info Dogs deserve the best and that means fresh, healthy food. Head to ollie.com healthypup Tell them about your dog and use code HEALTHYPUP to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box, so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O L L I e.com HealthyPup and enter code HealthyPup to get 60% off your first box.
- [25:55]
John Law
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- [26:34]
Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for my take today. Which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from an anonymous reader in Minneapolis, Minnesota who said, what happens if a large majority of voters change their party to independent? Would that cause no one to be able to figure out how to gerrymander the vote? Interesting strategy. I like this idea, but it probably wouldn't work. Mapmakers can gerrymander districts based off just demographic data from the census, which can serve as a proxy for how citizens will vote. In 2022, for example, Alabama redistricted in such a way that gave only one of its districts a black majority, 14% of its seven districts, despite 27% of the state's residents being black. Since black voters in Alabama are predominantly Democrats, this functioned as a partisan gerrymander. Now, Alabama's map was eventually tossed for this reason. However, the case proves the rule. Partisan map makers don't need to use party affiliation to gerrymander effectively. In fact, party registration might not even be the best tool for the job. Voter rolls from previous elections show not only which party citizens voted for, but which citizens voted. Mapmaking committees can even consider consumer purchasing habits from data accrued from private vendors. A credit card statement showing a donation to Planned Parenthood or the NRA can allow partisan gerrymanders to be effective down to the individual we're going to cover what data the government has about you in detail in a special Members Only piece this Friday. But basically Republicans or Democrats can easily gerrymander based on what they know about independent voters. In a previous edition on election reform, we described how open primaries and other electoral reforms could actually be the best ways to curtail gerrymandering. All right, that is it for your questions answered. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace.
- [28:30]
John Law
Thanks, Isaac. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. On Tuesday, Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick said that leaders at the Pentagon are discussing whether to take equity stakes in leading U.S. defense contractors such as Lockheed Martin. The comments follow President Trump's announcement of a deal with chipmaker intel granting the government a 10% stake in the company. Trump has said that he's open to similar deals with other companies. There's a monstrous discussion at the Pentagon about defense, lutnick said on Tuesday. But what's the economics of that? I'm going to leave that to my Secretary of Defense and Deputy Secretary of Defense. CNBC has this story and there's a link in today's episode description alright, next up is our numbers section. There are seven members or governors on the Federal Reserve's board of governors. 14 years is the length of a Fed governor's term. President Joe Biden appointed Lisa Cook to serve on the Federal Reserve's board of governors in 2022. The Senate's vote to confirm Cook to The board was 51 50, with Vice President Kamala Harris as the tie breaking vote. Cook's term on the board expires in 2038. It is now 20 days until the Federal Open Market Committee's next meeting, which begins on Sept. 16. 36 out of 50 economists surveyed in a July 2025 Reuters poll said that they were worried about the Fed's independence from political influence, and 14 out of the 50 said they were not worried. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. Restaurateur Tommy Fellow suffered a stroke on Christmas Eve, causing a loss of feeling across the left side of his body and that persisted even after physical and occupational therapy. Then another patient recovering from a stroke suggested that he look into a new technology called the Vivistum system, which stimulates the vagus nerve, the body's longest cranial nerve, during rehabilitation to improve hand and arm function for stroke victims. Since starting the treatment, Fellow's doctors say his mobility has significantly improved and his pain has subsided. I'm very, very happy to do it, very proud to do it and glad I did it, fellow said. CBS News has this story and there's a link in today's episode description alright everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to readtangle.com, where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day y'. All.
- [31:00]
Isaac Saul
Piece Our Executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our Executive producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will K. Back and Associate Editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead Bailey Saw Lindsay Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and stuff, sign up for a membership please visit our website@retangle.com.
- [31:40]
Advertiser/Host for Ads
If your dog could talk, they'd beg for Ollie. The full body tail wag, the excited little hops, the big goofy grin. That's the Ollie effect. Ollie delivers clean, fresh nutrition in five drool worthy flavors, even for the pickiest eaters made in US Kitchens with high quality human grade ingredients. Ollie's food contains no fillers, no preservatives, just real food. Just fill out Ollie's 32nd quiz and they'll create a customized meal plan based on your pup's weight, activity level and other health info. Dogs deserve the best and that means fresh, healthy food. Head to ollie.com healthypup tell them about your dog and use code healthypup to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's o l l I-e.com HealthyPup and enter code HEALTHYPUP to get 60% off your first box.
- [32:35]
John Law
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [32:55]
Advertiser/Host for Ads
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