News Anchor John Lal (5:15)

Thanks, Isaac, and welcome everybody. Here are your quick hits for first up, the House of Representatives voted 427. 1 to pass a bill requiring the Justice Department to release all files related to convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. Later in the day, the Senate agreed to approve the measure by unanimous consent and it will be sent to President Donald Trump for his signature today. Number two, President Trump met with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman at the White House, where the two discussed their military and energy partnerships and normalizing Saudi ties with Israel. Trump also said that bin Salman was not involved in the 2018 killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, a claim that contradicts US intelligence agencies findings 3 A three judge panel ruled that Texas cannot use its recently redrawn congressional map in the 2026 midterm elections, finding substantial evidence that the new map racially gerrymanders districts. Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton said he will appeal the decision to the Supreme Court. Number four, the Trump administration announced a series of measures to continue its dismantling of the Education Department, outsourcing several of its key functions to other federal agencies. And number five, a federal judge ruled that Meta's acquisitions of the social media app Instagram and messaging service WhatsApp did not violate US antitrust law, finding that the government did not prove that the deals had allowed Meta to illegally consolidate control of the social networking market.

Associate Editor Lindsay Knuth (6:38)

Foreign.

Host Isaac Saul (6:48)

This is the problem with our government. I mean, this is ridiculous.

News Anchor John Lal (6:52)

A last minute provision to the bill closes a loophole that allowed manufacturers to convert hemp into high potency THC products through chemical processing sold with almost no federal oversight. The new provision will cap hemp hemp products at just 0.4 milligrams of THC per serving, a fraction of what's nearly in all products on the market today.

Host Isaac Saul (7:14)

Products more potent than marijuana can be bought off the shelves of a glass of a gas station.

News Anchor John Lal (7:24)

Last week, President Donald Trump signed legislation to reopen the government that contained several additional provisions, including a ban on products made with THC derived from hemp. The ban reverses a provision in the 2018 farm bill that legalized the sale of hemp products with a low concentration of Delta 9 tetrahydrocannabinol Delta 9 THC. That 2018 measure inadvertently allowed for legal production of THC infused drinks, creams, gummies, oils and vapes. The new provision is not an outright ban on all hemp and hemp products, but it narrows the definition of lawful hemp and imposes restrictions on both total THC limits and cannabinoids synthesized from hemp derived cannabidiol Hemp and cannabis are both varieties of Cannabis sativa L, but they differ in concentration of the psychoactive compound Delta9 THC. The new law prohibits the addition of more than 0.4 milligrams of THC per container, a shift from the prior 0.3% Delta9 THC dry weight standard. Furthermore, the provision bans any THC that is not derived from cannabis, as well as all other cannabinoids with similar effects. As a result, the law will ban roughly 90% of all non intoxicating CBD and THC products, according to an estimate from the US Hemp Roundtable. The law takes effect on November 12, 2026, and within the next 90 days the food and Drug Administration must publish a list of all cannabinoids known to be naturally produced by the cannabis plant, all naturally occurring THC class cannabinoids, and a list of all cannabinoids with similar effects to thc. Senator Chris Van Hollen, the Democrat from Maryland, characterized the delay between legislation and enforcement as a period to enact an alternative regulatory framework for consumable hemp products and allow for legal challenges. According to industry experts, the hemp based THC industry employs roughly 300,000 people and is estimated to be worth $28 billion. The products are often used as a recreational intoxicant, but are also used to treat anxiety, joint and muscle pain, headaches, insomnia and ptsd. As these products have become more popular, children's and adolescents exposure has also increased. According to one 2023 study, ingestion of THC by children increased from 207 known cases in 2017 to 3014 cases in 2021. The provision to close the loophole was proposed BY Senator Mitch McConnell, the Republican from Kentucky, but opposed by several lawmakers, including fellow Republican Kentuckians Senator Rand Paul and Representative Thomas Massie. Paul offered an amendment to remove the provision that failed to pass, claiming that new legislation was a thoughtless, ignorant proposal that would eradicate the hemp industry. A wide coalition pushed for the Provision's inclusion. In October, 39 state attorneys general sent a letter to Congress demanding a federal crackdown on the sale of psychoactive hemp products, claiming the existing law unfairly erodes state laws that govern THC infused products. In a floor speech defending his amendment, Senator McConnell said that the ban would keep harmful products out of the reach of children. Today we'll get into what the left, right and industry writers are saying and then Isaac's take.

Host Isaac Saul (10:42)

We'll be right back after this quick break.

Ulta Beauty Announcer (10:49)

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Paige Desorbo (11:18)

Hey, let me let you in on a little secret. I've turned staying into bed into an art form. It's just my place place. It's my shopping sanctuary and honestly the perfect place to hang out with all of my favorite people. So join me and some of the most interesting people I know for shopping, some laughs and maybe a few secrets. All from the comfort of my bed. And the best part? You can watch from your bed. All new episodes of my show in bed with Paige Desorbo air Mondays at 8pm Eastern Standard Time on Amazon Live. Just open Prime Video on your TV and search Amazon Live to cozy up in In Bed with me, Paige desorbo. Because why get out of bed if you don't have to?

News Anchor John Lal (12:07)

All right, first up, let's start with what the left is saying. The left is mixed on the legislation, with some saying it is overly broad. Others say closing the loophole is necessary to protect minors. In Ms. Now, Jeremy Burke called the ban a shortsighted overreaction. Big mainstream retailers like Target and Total Wine and more have embraced these hemp products as younger consumers eschew alcohol for hangover free THC drinks. And while many companies in the hemp space focus on consumer safety, others aren't using hemp to synthesize other forms of THC, like Delta 8 and selling them to miners through gas stations or corner stores, burke wrote. But with the funding bill, lawmakers failed to distinguish between the good actors selling tested low dose THC seltzers in established stores and versus the bad peddling synthetic THC products often containing pesticides and heavy metals through gas stations and illicit market locations. There are genuine public health concerns about the unregulated sale of synthetic cannabis products, especially when sold to minors. But rather than ban synthetic cannabis products specifically or even simply mandate age, gating, McConnell and the other senators pushed for an outright ban to crush the nascent industry entirely, Burke said. The core issue here is not just consumer safety or access to these hemp products. It's jobs, livelihoods and a real opportunity to further normalize cannabis in America, regardless of what Trump decides to do. On pushing reform in the Washington Post, Lindsey Vuolo and Kevin Roy argued the hemp loophole is exposing kids to drugs. Congress distinguished the two by requiring products designated as hemp to contain less than 0.3% delta 9 THC, the main form of THC that's naturally found in marijuana and is responsible for its intoxicating effects. Thanks, wolo and Roy wrote. Then the law of unintended consequences took over. Manufacturers began to chemically convert non psychoactive cannabinoids derived from hemp, such as cbd, into psychoactive edible and liquid products. The products are completely unregulated in many states and may be sold without age, packaging or labeling restrictions in convenience stores and at gas stations as well as online. Opponents of the new provision might emphasize that Congress's original intent was to encourage a market for industrial hemp products. But the unintended consequences of the 2018 law have become apparent in the years since. Wolo and Roy said lawmakers should seize it to prevent unintentional ingestion by young children and help curb the normalization of substance use among adolescents. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. The right is also mixed on the ban, and some see the move as a common sense measure to remedy a public health threat. Others say the move will hurt farmers and was advanced without a chance for debate. In City Journal, Kevin Sabet called the ban a bipartisan win. In recent months, a bipartisan group of state leaders has regulated hemp products and called on Washington to do the same. Ohio Governor Mike DeWine, a Republican, issued a ban on intoxicating hemp. California Governor Gavin Newsom, a Democrat, severely restricted hemp sales, and in a remarkable bipartisan effort, 39 state attorneys general wrote to Congress urging it to close the federal hemp loophole, sabat wrote. The new hemp law, however, has a catch. It doesn't take effect for one year. Big hemp will almost certainly flood Capitol Hill in an attempt to further stall its implementation. That's why it's important that states remain committed to hemp THC bans over the next year. Grassroots advocacy is critical in states like Texas, where governor Greg Abbott vetoed a bill the state leg legislature passed that would have banned hemp products. By adopting the federal ban in their own lands, states can slam these markets shut, savitt said. Washington will almost certainly enforce the ban next year. The precedent supports it, as do a bipartisan majority of congressional lawmakers. And red and blue state leaders the public is sick of seeing high potency THC drugs marketed to kids in gas stations. In the Currier Journal, Senator Rand Paul, the Republican from Kentucky, said Congress created a crisis, then conveniently used the crisis to jam through new laws without the ban wipes out the regulatory frameworks adopted by several states, takes away consumer choice and destroys the livelihoods of hemp farmers. This could not have come at a worse time for our farmers, paul wrote. Costs have increased while prices for crops have declined. Farm bankruptcies are on the rise. For many farmers, planting hemp offered them a lifeline. Hemp can be used for textiles, rope, insulation, composite wood, paper, grain and NCBD products, and growing hemp helps farmers to mitigate the losses they've endured during this season of hardship. There is no reason to wipe out the progress made by states that have been regulating hemp since it was legalized. Of the 23 states that expressly permit the sale of hemp THC food and beverages, not one of them has set a limit lower than the 0.4 milligram limit established by the bill, paul said. In true Washington swamp fashion, this hemp ban is not being debated on its own on the merits. Anyone that asks for a debate when these reforms emerge from behind closed doors is is accused of obstruction by congressional leaders. Alright, that is it for what the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to what industry experts are saying. Some writers say the ban will only result in more illicit sales of these products. Others argue that the ban could spur a national push for federal cannabis legalization. In convenience store news, Melissa Vonderhaar wrote, closing the hemp loophole won't close the problem. By banning all intoxicating hemp products, Congress is far more likely to increase the presence of those very copycat high dose marketed to children products it hopes to eliminate, Vonderhaar said. Congress may well close the loophole in the 2018 farm bill that allowed a $28 billion hemp THC market to bloom. But there is zero plan for enforcement. That means the responsible players, the low dose beverages, functional gummies, and mainstream retailers like Target, Total One and Circle K will stop selling. Meanwhile, the bad actors already flouting copyright laws and basic decency will keep right on going. We've seen this movie before. California became the second state to ban menthol cigarettes in late 2022, one year after the ban, research firm WSPM Group analyzed 15,000 discarded cigarette packs found in trash cans across major metro areas. Before the ban, 24.5% of cigarettes sold in California were menthol. A year later, 21% of discarded packs were still menthol, and many were from Mexico, Vanderhaar said. In short, the ban barely reduced menthol use, cost responsible retailers and the state millions in lost revenue, and almost certainly made public health worse. In Marijuana moment, Adam Terry suggested the ban is an opportunity to legalize cannabis across the board Each year, cannabis reform has meant important work by activists who care about personal freedom and the miscarriage of justice that each arrest for cannabis represented, as well as an important initiative to expand the growing state legal marijuana industry in America. And each year, major media outlets and most Americans have treated cannabis legalization as a mildly interesting side story, terry said. But one thing changed last week. There has never before been a situation where we have seen access to cannabis given to millions of Americans and then abruptly taken away. In my time in the cannabis industry, I have never seen a cannabis policy that instantly removed access to people across the entire country in the way that this sweeping sledgehammer of a ban has. Never before have so many people been affected in a negative way on this issue all at once, terry wrote. We should use this moment where millions of people are about to lose all access to cannabis in states that have zero dispensaries, and millions more will lose the easy access they've come to enjoy to once and for all decriminalize, deschedule and regulate cannabis in the US alright, let's head over to Isaac for his take.

Host Isaac Saul (20:09)

All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. So to start, I want to say plainly that my concerns about the cannabis industry have grown since 2018. While Congress's move to close the hemp loophole creates problems, data about the legal sale of hemp and cannabis products shows that the industry has its own issues. I actually wrote about this as far back as 2021 when I openly questioned my previously held confidence that legalization of cannabis was the right move. In 2024, when the government was considering rescheduling cannabis as a less dangerous controlled substance, I restated those concerns. I don't want anyone going to jail for smoking or possessing a drug that in my experience has been mostly harmless. But today's cannabis is industrially potent and it is fundamentally changing the experiences people have when they get high. Even as someone who used to be a habitual pot smoker in my early 20s, perhaps especially as a former habitual pot smoker, the research on addiction and cannabis induced psychosis is genuinely alarming. And hemp derived THC products are a part of this problem. When Congress tried to distinguish hemp from cannabis by requiring less than 0.3% Delta 9 THC in the products it was legalizing, manufacturers responded by chemically converting non psychoactive cannabinoids derived from hemp, like CBD into psychoactive compounds. That's a lot of percentages and acronyms and jargon to just say that a whole cottage industry popped up overnight of intoxicating drinks and gummies that could get people high, even dangerously high, and be legally sold in stores in areas where marijuana was illegal, all with no federally mandated age restrictions or regulations on how they are marketed and sold. As you might expect, kids and teenagers then got their hands on the drinks or gummies, which is especially dangerous because of the heightened risk of lifetime addiction for people who start using psychoactive substances when they are young. Already some kids and adults are getting so high they are going to the hospital or causing poison control. Congress created the problem with a poorly conceived piece of legislation, and now they're attempting to fix it with an equally slapdash legislative effort. As Senator Rand Paul pointed out, under what the Right Is Saying, negotiations were already underway to try to solve this problem without enacting a full scale prohibition. Yet Congress delivered exactly that. In a classic Congressional move, they resolved this issue by stuffing a broad base ban into a critical funding bill. The US National Cannabinoid Report claims that total hemp derived cannabinoid sales are in excess of $28 billion. That supports over 325,000 workers who earn more than $13.2 billion in wages. So if Congress wanted to fix the loophole they created, they should have passed a standalone bill of legislation through the committee and review process that could deal with the nuances of this sprawling multi billion dollar industry. Instead, they're blowing up that industry overnight. Some people have justified the need for this kind of broad hemp ban by overstating the public health concerns, some of which again, I share. For instance, Kevin Sabat, the President and CEO of Smart Approaches to Marijuana and a former White House drug policy advisor, argued that we have to prioritize removing the risk to children, saying, quote, Nationwide more than 10,000 people called poison control about Delta 8 between 2021 and 2025. This quote unquote 10,000 number has been cited all over the media since. And it sounds like a lot, but the figure's a bit misleading. For starters, it includes adults, not just kids, an implication evoked by referencing poison control. Second, in context, that figure is not that large. The same poison control website that provides the source for that claim says the leading substance analgesics or painkillers produced 278,000 exposures in 2023 alone. So again, 10,000 between 2021 and 2025 versus 278,000 exposures in one year. In 2023 alone, cosmetic and personal care products produced 126,000 exposures in 2023. Shoot. From 2019 to 2025, there were 22,966 exposure cases related to GLP1 drugs like Ozempic but Congress isn't moving to shut down the weight loss industry. This ordeal provides a good example of how, when it suits them, the federal government throws its weight around against certain taboo industries that lack the right lobbyists. Some hemp products are as innocuous as cosmetics. They span the gamut from textiles to oils to tinctures that address arthritis, skin problems or anxiety in relatively safe ways, especially compared to other medications used to treat pain or anxiety. In my personal life, I know a handful of people who say CBD products have been game changers for their various chronic illnesses or pain. Non intoxicant applications like those listed above clearly don't create a public health concern that justifies their prohibition. Still, the industry reaction shows that intoxicating products make up a huge chunk of the hemp industry's revenue and the entirety of the public health concern. So I'll focus the discussion there. One reasonable approach Congress could take would be to simply allow state law to supersede federal law. 23 states that have permitted the sale of THC food and beverages have already set their own potency limits, none of which are as low as the new Federal threshold of 0.4 milligrams of THC per container. Alternatively, Congress could set a standard somewhere around the average of existing laws. Maine limits THC to 3 milligrams per serving, while Tennessee permits as much as 15 milligrams. But the federal law shouldn't undercut every existing piece of legislation from state lawmakers by orders of magnitude, especially not when those lawmakers seem to have approached the issue with genuine care. Other, narrower and more obvious solutions should also be on the table here. We could more strictly regulate the packaging and labeling of these products. We could introduce federal age limits like we do for cigarettes or alcohol. We could do both. The truth is, we don't even have a great understanding of what exactly goes into a lot of these products. And Congress could openly work with top producers to get clarity. That would require Congress to learn more about the products and develop appropriate enforcement mechanisms to keep production methods in the light and out of the black market. In other words, it would take doing the actual work of legislating. The good news is that the effects of this legislation won't be realized for about a year, which gives Congress time to clean up the mess they've created to solve another mess they created. Hopefully, advocates like Rand Paul won't give up on improving this legislation, and the potential farm and job losses and consumer upset will move Congress to be more thoughtful here. Legal, consumers, hardworking employees in the hemp industry, and our kids all deserve a much more thoughtful regulatory framework than the one we're currently getting. All right, that is it for my take today. We do not have a staff dissent because that take was fire, so no need to dissent, right? But we do have a staff member hopping on here to answer today's reader question, so I'm going to pass it over to Associate Editor Lindsay Knuth. We'll be right back after this quick break.

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Executive Producer Isaac Saul (28:09)

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Associate Editor Lindsay Knuth (29:24)

This is Associate Editor Lindsay Knuth and today I'm answering a question from Philip from California. He asked, how do judges decide whether to temporarily allow an action that's being challenged legally to either continue or cease prior to an actual decision being made? Your question centers on preliminary injunctions or court orders that temporarily prevent or require actions related to a case being decided on the merits. Either party can file a request for an injunction at all levels in the US Court system, and a judge then determines whether to grant, deny or dismiss the request. To make that decision, judges use a test established by the Supreme Court in Winter v. Natural Resources Defense Council, which considered the effects of sonar on marine life. The test consists of four factors. The first factor is the likelihood that the petitioner will win on the merits. The higher the likelihood of success, the greater the reason to grant their injunction. The second factor is the likelihood that the petitioner will suffer irreparable harm without an injunction. The more likely the harm, the greater the reason to grant their injunction. The third factor is the balancing of harms to each party. The more that balance tips in the petitioner's favor, the greater the reason to grant their injunction. The fourth factor is the public interest. The higher the possible negative impact on the public interest absent an injunction, the greater the reason to grant their injunction. But a case's specific facts tend to make some of these factors more relevant and subject to more weight than others. In Winter, for example, the majority reversed an injunction and allowed the Navy to continue conducting sonar exercises because, among other things, it found the evidence presented by the plaintiffs failed to provide enough proof that the technology can harm marine animals. The court also determined that having a prepared military was strongly in the public's interest In Trump the or, which we covered. Last week, the Supreme Court overturned a lower court injunction in part because it found the government has a high chance of success in the merits and would suffer irreparable harm from an inability to enact its new passport policy, a ruling that I actually argued against in my take. In conclusion, while the implementation of the four part analysis does differ in some ways across courts and jurisdictions, judges use this standard for ruling on injunctions pretty much across the board.

News Anchor John Lal (31:48)

Thanks, Lindsay. Here's your under the Radar story for today, folks. On Monday, a federal judge found that the Justice Department engaged in a disturbing pattern of profound investigative missteps in its effort to secure an indictment against former FBI Director James Comey and directed prosecutors to provide Comey's lawyers with all grand jury materials from the case. Magistrate Judge William Fitzpatrick found that misstatements of the law by prosecutors to the grand jury, the use of potentially privileged communications during the investigation, and irregularities in the transcript of the grand jury proceedings could have undermined the integrity of the grand jury proceedings. The trial judge in the case granted the Justice Department's request that Fitzpatrick's ruling be put on hold to allow it to file objections. But the development raises questions about the strength of the government's case and whether it can survive ongoing pretrial challenges. The Associated Press has this story, and there's a link in today's episode description. Alright, next up is our numbers section. The estimated size of the retail hemp market in the United States is $28 billion. According to industry executives interviewed by CNBC, 95% of the market will be eliminated if the restrictions on hemp derived consumer products go into effect next year. According to a J.P. morgan report, the estimated retail sales of hemp derived beverages in 2025 is $1.4 billion. The projected size of the hemp derived beverage market in 2028, if these products remain legal, is $4.1 billion. According to a 2023 study in the Journal of Cannabis Research, 66% of Delta 9 THC products in a sample of 53 differed from their stated dosage by more than 10% and 49% of the sample Delta 9 THC products converted cannabidiol to THC to achieve their dosage levels. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. Wisp, a two year old colleague, was walking with his owner along the cliffs of the North Maven Peninsula in Shetland when he fell 100ft down a cliff face. Unable to reach him safely, his owner called for the Coast Guard who immediately began a rescue mission. Over the course of the three hour operation, the rescuers used rope equipment to secure Wisp from above a sea level. Rescue was impossible due to the steep cliff face and bring him back safely. Incredibly, the dog was uninjured. Good News Network has this story and there's a link in today's episode description alright everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to retangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership or a bundle membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Lal signing off. Have a great day y'.

Paige Desorbo (34:29)

All.

News Anchor John Lal (34:30)

Peace.

Host Isaac Saul (34:32)

Our Executive Editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul and our Executive Producer is John Law. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with C Senior Editor Will K. Back and Associate Editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead Bailey Saw Lindsay Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@readtangle.com.

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Ulta Beauty Announcer (35:42)

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News Anchor John Lal (36:11)

Every year.

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