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- [00:01]
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Kandi Burruss
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- [01:51]
Isaac Saul
From executive producer Isaac Saul.
- [01:55]
Kandi Burruss
This is Tang.
- [02:06]
Isaac Saul
Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and a little bit of my take. I'm your host Isaac Saul and on today's episode we are going to be talking about the pardon of Hunter Biden. Yes, we we got handed a big breaking news story on Sunday so we are not short on things to discuss this week. As many of you know, we were off for Thanksgiving break. So thank you to all of you who patiently waited for our return. I hope you guys took our advice, took a little bit of a news break. I hope you enjoyed some time with family and friends or whatever you do over holiday breaks like Thanksgiving. I'm feeling recharged. Refresh Ready for the home stretch in 2024 before we take another little break around Christmas and the New Year. But super glad to be here. And before we jump in, I have one big ask of you guys. I know I ask things of you guys. I hate asking for stuff from you guys, but this one's important. Today is Giving Tuesday. This is a day when Americans are encouraged to give what they can to good causes. So I'm using my megaphone here with TANGLE to ask you to support a Philadelphia group that I am a regular donor to. The group is called the Double Trellis Food Initiative. I'm going to leave a link to their donation page in today's episode description, but you can also find their website by going to Double Trellis. That's T R E l l I s.org they have a mission that I really appreciate. It's to provide free, dignified, zero waste meals for Philadelphians in need. In the process, they also do something very cool. They provide culinary training to adults who have spent time in PR trying to get back on their feet. And here in Philly, they've cooked and distributed over 50,000 meals in the Philadelphia area this year alone. So the group gives out these free meals and they employ people to help them give out those free meals who get training. This is training so they can rejoin the workforce. The training is paid. Their program has 100% graduation rate. Students then go on to receive a serv save certificate so they can work in the food industry if they want. This organization, I should say is run by a family friend of mine and I watched him overcome his own addiction to find purpose and sobriety and stability in this work that he's now doing. His story is inspiring to me and because I know him well, I know the money is being put to good use. Double Trellis has just two full time staffers so your dollars don't go to a bunch of admin fees. They actually go to directly feeding and training people. So if you're able on this Giving Tuesday, I'm asking you to donate to the Double Trellis Food Initiative. Again, there is a link to their donation page in our episode description or you can go to doubletrellis.org to learn more info if you'd like. With that I'm going to pass it over to John who's got some of the stories we missed over the holiday break and the rest of our main newsletter and then I'll be back for.
- [05:23]
Advertiser 2
Thanks Isaac and welcome everybody. Hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving break. It was quite a newsy week last week so we are starting off with 10 major stories that we didn't get a chance to cover. First up, Israel and Hezbollah agreed to a ceasefire, which took effect on Wednesday morning. Separately, Egyptian security officials met with Hamas leaders to discuss a ceasefire deal in the Gaza war. Number two, the Biden administration proposed a new rule that would make weight loss drugs like Ozempic eligible for coverage under Medicare and Medicaid. Number three, President elect Donald Trump nominated physician and health economist Jay Bhattacharya to serve as the next director of the National Institutes of Health. Separately, Trump selected retired Army Lt. Gen. Keith Kellogg to serve as his special envoy for Ukraine and Russia. Additionally, Trump chose real estate executive Charles Kushner, the father of Trump's son in law Jared Kushner, to serve as ambassador to France and Lebanese American businessman Mossad Boulos, the father in law of Trump's daughter Tiffany, to serve as senior advisor on Arab and Middle Eastern affairs. Finally, Trump nominated former federal prosecutor Kash Patel to serve as director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Number four, Syrian rebels advanced into Aleppo, the largest city in northern Syria, and seized control of most of the city in a surprise attack. Number five, the Australian Parliament approved a ban on social media for children under the age of 16. Separately, British lawmakers voted to allow assisted suicide for terminally ill pay patients in England and Wales under certain conditions. Number six Democratic lawmakers from Rhode island, members of the Connecticut congressional delegation and several of President elect Trump's appointees were targeted with bomb threats and swatting attacks. Number seven Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum said she spoke to President elect Trump and discussed maintaining a good relationship after previously suggesting she may impose tariffs against the United States if Trump follows through on his threat to impose 25% import duties on Mexican goods. Additionally, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau met with Trump at Mar a Lago days after Trump threatened similar tariffs against Canada. Separately, Trump said he would levy a 100% tariff on BRICS, which is Brazil, Russia, India, China and South African countries if they did not commit to maintaining the US Dollar as their reserve currency. Number eight, the incoming Trump administration reportedly plans to impose sanctions on the International Criminal Court judges who issued arrest warrants for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former Defense Minister Yoav Gallant. Number nine, the Supreme Court agreed to hear arguments in a case challenging Tennessee's ban on puberty blockers and hormonal treatments for minors. And number 10, Taiwanese President Lai Chating visited Hawaii as part of a seven day Pacific tour despite the protests of the Chinese government. Separately, the United States released three Chinese citizens in exchange for three Americans being detained in China. All Right. That's it for the stories that we missed last week. Which brings us to today's quick hits. First up, a bit of breaking news. South Korea's parliament voted to end martial law hours after it was declared by President Yoon Suk Yeol, who accused opposition parties of making the country vulnerable to threats from North Korea. Number two, the Republican led House Oversight and Accountability Committee released its final report on COVID 19, determining that the pandemic likely originated from a leak from a lab in Wuhan, China. The report also said that the US Government perpetuated misinformation by calling the lab leak theory a conspiracy. Number three, Israel and Hezbollah each accused the other of violating the terms of their ceasefire agreement after a series of attacks over the weekend. Separately, the Pentagon said it would send Ukraine $725 million in military assistance through presidential drawdown authority. Number four, French lawmakers will vote on a no confidence motion for Prime Minister Michel Barnier, which would disband the current government if passed. And number five, closing arguments are underway in Daniel Penney's manslaughter trial for the death of Jordan neely in a 2023 incident on a New York City subway.
- [09:38]
News Anchor 1
But we do begin tonight with the backlash after President Biden pardoned his son Hunter, issuing a, quote, full and unconditional pardon to his son. It was during my interview with the president in Normandy in June. I pressed the president on this very issue. The president told me he would not pardon Hunter, but last night he did, issuing a statement saying he believes his son was selectively and unfairly prosecuted, writing, no reasonable person who looks at the facts of Hunter's cases can reach any other conclusion than Hunter was singled out only because he's my son and that is wrong.
- [10:09]
News Anchor 2
Hunter Biden was set to be sentenced 10 days from now on a felony gun conviction in Delaware and then on separate tax charges in California. Days later, Republicans and some Democrats are criticizing the president's decision after he previously said many times that he would not pardon his son. President Elect Donald Trump pounced on the move, calling it an abuse and miscarriage of justice, and hinted that he plans to pardon those convicted of the assault at the US Capitol building in 2021.
- [10:39]
Advertiser 2
On Sunday, President Joe Biden announced that he had issued a full and unconditional pardon for his son Hunter for any criminal acts January 1, 2014 and December 1, 2024. The younger Biden was convicted earlier this year on felony gun charges and pleaded guilty to felony tax offenses. He was set to appear at sentencing hearings for those cases on December 12 and December 16. The President's decision comes after repeatedly promising that he would not grant his son clemency or otherwise involve himself in his criminal cases. The Justice Department prosecuted Hunter Budden in two separate cases, one for lying on a gun purchase form in 2018, claiming that he was not using or addicted to drugs, and the other for a scheme to avoid paying at least $1.4 million in taxes. In 2023, Hunter's lawyers reached a deal with the Justice Department to plead guilty to two misdemeanor tax charges and avoid prosecution on the gun charge, but the deal collapsed after a federal judge questioned its legality. You can read our past coverage on Hunter Biden's criminal cases with a link in today's episode Description In a statement on the pardon, President Biden said that his son Hunter had been selectively and unfairly prosecuted, alleging that the charges in his case came about only after several of my political opponents in Congress instigated them to attack me and oppose my election. The president added that he hoped that Americans will understand why a father and a president would come to this decision. Biden reportedly decided to pardon his son after spending the weekend with his family, including Hunter, in Nantucket. However, Biden and the White House had explicitly ruled out pardoning Hunter since the start of the Justice Department's prosecutions, with White House press secretary Karine Jean Pierre saying as recently as November 7th that the President did not plan to pardon his son in the final months of his term. The pardon scope is unusually broad, as presidents typically grant clemency for specific crimes rather than immunity for all criminal or potentially criminal acts taken during a period of time. Notably, the pardon start date of January 1, 2014, coincides with the year Hunter Biden joined the board of the Ukrainian energy company Boris Maholdings, a position that Republicans have alleged Hunter illegally profited from. Legal experts have suggested that President Gerald Ford's pardon of President Richard Nixon in 1974 is the only comparably broad presidential pardon in modern U.S. history. Republicans quickly criticized President Biden's decision, while President Elect Trump suggested that those convicted on charges related to the January 6 riot at the Capitol should also receive pardons. Democrats, meanwhile, have been more muted in their reactions, though some have also criticized the move. Today we'll share views from the right and the left about Biden's decision to pardon his son and then Isaac's take.
- [13:32]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [13:39]
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- [14:58]
Advertiser 2
All right, first up, let's start with what the right is saying. The right criticizes the pardon, suggesting it will be a permanent stain on Biden's legacy. Some say it was clear Biden would pardon his son as soon as it was politically expedient. Others say Hunter received favorable treatment at every stage of his criminal cases. In Fox News, Jonathan Turley wrote, joe Biden's pardon of son Hunter cements his legacy as liar in Chief. President Biden's decision to use his presidential powers on Sunday to pardon his own son will be a decision that lives in infamy in presidential politics. It is not just that the president used his constitutional powers to benefit his family, turley said. It is because the action culminates years of lying to the public about his knowledge and intentions in the influence peddling scandal surrounding his family. Even among past controversies about the use of pardon power, Biden has cemented his legacy for many not as commander in chief, but as liar in chief. The pardon power was written in absolute terms and a president can even, in my view, pardon himself. However, what is constitutional is not necessarily ethical or right. This is one of the most disgraceful pardons, even in a checkered history of presidential pardons, turley wrote. President Biden has lied to cover up a corruption scandal that reportedly brought his family millions in raw influence peddling. His portrayal of his son as a victim stands in sharp contrast to the sense of immunity and power conveyed by Hunter in his dealings. In the New York Post, Miranda Devine said, we always knew Joe Biden would pardon troubled son Hunter. It is fitting that one of the final acts of this mendacious president before leaving office was to break yet another promise to the American people, devine wrote. Joe told reporters in June after Hunter was convicted of felony gun charges in Delaware that he would definitely not pardon his son. With a truthful president, that would be the end of it. But with the fablest plagiarist Pinocchio currently in that job, it meant little the same for the repeated assurances of the perennial know nothing Karine Jean Pierre from the White House podium that no pardon would be forthcoming. Hunter got an unfair advantage because of his father's power. He broke laws with impunity and knew that nobody would ever stop him from doing exactly what he wanted. Every time he slipped up, his father and his minions in the FBI, doj, irs, State Department and CIA intervened to get him off the hook, devine said. The person who corrupted the legal system in this country is Joe Biden. He weaponized it against his political nemesis, Donald Trump and Trump supporters. Trump is the victim of an unjust prosecution, not Hunter. But the American people understand that, as they proved on Election Day when they elected Trump in a landslide. In the Federalist, Jordan Boyd argued Hunter is treated differently by the deep state, but not how Joe Biden's pardon suggests. Joe's assertion that Hunter received unique treatment from the powers that be is correct, but not for the reasons that the president listed. Ever since Joe became vice president and then president, the bureaucracy has gone out of its way to handle Hunter and his criminality with kid gloves, boyd wrote. Hunter allegedly failed to pay over $1.4 million in taxes and lied about illicit drug use on the federal form required for gun purchases, facts that were widely reported and well known to federal investigators. Despite public knowledge of Hunter's guns and tax crimes, however, U.S. attorney David Weiss repeatedly delayed bringing charges against him. The FBI similarly did its best to hide and downplay a document detailing accusations that Biden fired a Ukrainian prosecutor tasked with investigating the energy company his son was a board member of in exchange for millions of dollars, boyd said. In Hunter's pardon, Biden lamented the various investigations and prosecutions of his son as a miscarriage of justice. The true miscarriage of justice, however, came years ago when deep state departments and agencies started working overtime to shield Hunter to protect Joe's power. Alright, that is it for what the right is saying. Which brings us to what the left is saying. The left is also critical of the pardon, with many arguing the decision is plainly hypocritical. Some defended the pardon but say the president handled it poorly. Others worry that the move will embolden Trump in his second term. In the Atlantic, Jonathan Chait wrote about Biden's unpardonable hypocrisy. Biden professed a willingness to abide by the rules of the justice system as a matter of principle. But in breaking his promise and using a sweeping pardon of his son for any crimes he may have committed over an 11 year period, Biden has revealed his pledge to have been merely instrumental, Chait said. President Biden's complaint about the higher standard applied to his son reflects the perspective of myopic privilege. Crimes by family members of powerful public officials are far more damaging to public confidence than similar crimes by anonymous people. Holding them to account through strict enforcement of the law is good and correct. What the president fails to note in this self pitying statement is that Hunter Biden for years engaged in legal but wildly inappropriate behavior by running a business based on selling the perception of access to his father, chait wrote. But Joe Biden's defense of Hunter's influence peddling by stressing its narrow legality merely serves to highlight the hypocrisy of his fatherly indulgence. The black letter of the law was a fence to protect Hunter from the consequences of his sleazy behavior. And when the law itself trapped him, he simply opened a door and walked through it a door no average American could access. In Newsweek, Aaron Solomon argued pardoning Hunter Biden was the right thing done the wrong way. The pardon was an act of compassion and a practical solution to a legal case that had become hopelessly entangled in partisan politics. But while the pardon itself may have been justified, the president's repeated and unequivocal denials that he would ever consider such a move were deeply damaging. Solomon said it was obvious to anyone following the situation closely that he would eventually issue the pardon. By refusing to admit the possibility beforehand, Biden contributed to the pervasive erosion of trust in politics and politicians. Hunter Biden's legal troubles, while serious, were not particularly extraordinary in the grand scheme of federal prosecutions. He faced charges of failing to pay taxes on time and illegally owning a firearm while struggling with addiction. While these offenses are not trivial, they hardly make him the criminal mastermind Republicans have portrayed him to be, solomon wrote. And yet Biden's handling of the matter was far from perfect. Biden's repeated denials did not shield him from criticism. They only made his eventual decision appear calculated and cynical. Had he been upfront acknowledging the extraordinary circumstances of his son's case and the difficult choices it posed he might have turned the pardon into a moment of candor and humility. In the Boston Globe, James Pendell said Biden's pardon of his son is not only him at his Trumpiest, but also emboldens Trump's next term. While Biden campaigned on removing Trumpism, restoring dignity and decency to the White House, and pledging to restore the soul of the nation, he appeared to abandon those ideals over Thanksgiving dinner, Pindoll wrote. Within hours, Good for Joe was trending from his supporters on X, formerly known as Twitter. Never mind. This marked a stark reversal from Biden's repeated position that, unlike Trump, he would respect the courts and the rule of law, vowing never to pardon Hunter. Despite his love for him. Biden is not the first sitting president to pardon a family member. Bill Clinton pardoned his half brother Roger for drug charges. And let's not forget Trump's pardon of Charles Kushner, his son in law's father, whom he nominated to be the next ambassador to France. Pendell said though Biden initially sought to demonstrate his administration's commitment to higher standards, his latest move only further emboldens a next Trump administration, which will no doubt repeatedly point to this pardon further weakening the norms of American politics. All right, let's head over to Isaac for his take.
- [23:01]
Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to my take. So before I say anything, I need to own the fact that I did not expect Joe Biden to do this. In a June edition of Tangle, I said that if Hunter Biden got convicted, quote, I have a hard time imagining him going to jail as part of his sentence. And I also think it is incredibly unlikely and would be very unwise for President Biden to get involved in any way, like by trying to pardon him. End quote. After Biden dropped out, I wondered aloud if he might pardon Hunter, but I personally did not expect him to. I've long maintained that political prognostication is a fool's errand, because when you inevitably get something wrong, it turns into a blunt object people use to bludgeon you with. Nevertheless, I also think such prognostication is a helpful way to test your understanding of the world we live in. So I often make predictions as a way to show and test my reasoning. I'm proud to say that when I've written about future events, I am right far more often than I'm wrong. But I was very wrong about this. So you can take my analysis from here with that grain of salt. Generally speaking, I believed President Biden would not pardon Hunter if he was convicted for three reasons. First, the DOJ could have likely sought a punishment without prison, so a pardon might not have been necessary. Two, Biden would not want to do something that would help Trump politically and give him more of an excuse for any questionable actions going forward, which pardoning his son very obviously does. And three, he said that he would not pardon him publicly, over and over, to the point that going back on his word would critically tarnish his legacy. And of course, when President Biden was also candidate Biden, the optics of this decision were even less conceivable. Apparently, though, none of that mattered. While I think pardoning Hunter is a terrible decision, I think the strongest possible defense is that the case did seem to be driven by politics. The Justice Department spent significantly more resources prosecuting this case than they would have for an average defendant. Hunter took a reasonable plea deal that collapsed. Lying on a form to buy a gun is a common, low level crime. Tax evasion is worse. But Hunter Biden pleaded guilty to that crime and paid back what he owed, plus penalties. These offenses are not deserving of this kind of attention by the doj, unless you are using the case to prove something like that. The President's son should be punished for profiting off his father's time in the White House. But Hunter was not on trial for that. Throughout it all, President Biden stayed out of the process, seemingly trying to respect norms and avoid influencing the case. His political reward was getting forced out of his nomination and then watching the norm breaking Trump win reelection. Trump, of course, is the same guy who pardoned Charles Kushner, Steve Bannon, Paul Manafort, Roger Stone, and Michael Flynn, and who has suggested he would pardon some of the 1-6-Rioters once he's back in office. Imagine being in President Biden's position, watching Trump pardon his allies at the end of his term, promise revenge in his next term, and appoint people like Cash Patel to the FBI. If you had the opportunity to protect your son from spending the rest of his life living in fear of political prosecution, what would you do? This, interestingly, seems to be the argument that resonates most with critics on the right. It's his son. What would you do? If I were making the case for pardoning him, that is how I would make it. But I'm not making that case because I think this pardon is an overt abuse of presidential power, introduces a dangerous new precedent, and raises a lot of alarming questions. However you want to cut it. A lame duck president just issued A sweeping pardon for his son to protect him from being prosecuted for any and all federal crimes over a decade long period. Pardon power is not new, but this is as extreme a use of it as we've ever seen. It is a straightforward abuse of the presidential pardon power. There is really no way around it. I understand Biden wants to preempt a more aggressive prosecution from the incoming Trump administration, but it was Biden's Justice Department, not Trump Trump's, that pursued a plea deal. So head scratching, it was thrown out. I want to stress that Biden didn't just pardon Hunter for his tax and gun crimes, he pardoned him for any and all federal crimes for a decade long period. An astonishing and sweeping protection which raises serious questions about what exactly he is trying to protect him from. Especially given all the smoke around Hunter's business dealings from that time period. Even the defense that plucks at my heartstrings that Biden is acting as a loving father, protecting his addict son who went through a dark period in his life and is now being treated as a political pawn is not sufficient. When you are president, the country's best interests should supersede your own and your families. That's the deal you are making. It's the duty of the office, the higher calling. This decision is plainly bad for the country, even if it's good for Hunter. Even in a world where Trump gives his children's in laws pardons and high level positions, this pardon goes a step further, setting the precedent that the President can give his family members blanket immunity if he just claims political persecution. I've no doubt that future presidents, including Trump, will use it as an excuse for what is acceptable and defensible. And all of this, of course, is to say nothing of the fact that President Biden promised over and over again to the American public that he would not do the very thing he just did. Countless anchors from across the corporate media insisted any suggestion he was going to pardon Hunter was false and mock those who said he would as being incapable of imagining a principled, honorable person. If Biden were going to do this all along, he could have hedged his bets. He could have called out the prosecution for tanking a fair plea deal when it happened. He could have issued a statement saying he was doing his best to protect Hunter from Trump. He could have said he would not issue a pardon so long as the case was handled fairly. He could have even issued a narrow pardon for the tax and gun crimes. He didn't do any of that. Instead, he blatantly violated his own word, issued a sweeping pardon that raises alarming questions about other potential crimes, and opened a new door of abusive presidential power that we all now have to live with while he walks off into the sunset. It's a disappointing and frankly embarrassing way to end his presidency. We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [29:29]
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- [30:13]
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- [30:56]
Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for my take today. Our podcast got a little bit long because we had some news to catch you up on, so we are skipping today's listener question, but I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod and we'll be back here tomorrow. Don't forget to go donate to Double Trellis before you guys log off and close this out. We'll see you then. Have a good one. Peace.
- [31:19]
Advertiser 2
Thanks, Isaac. Here's your under the Rad story for today, folks. On Sunday, filmmaker and conservative activist Dinesh D'Souza issued an apology to a Georgia man accused of committing election fraud in Du's documentary 2000 Mules. The film, which purported to show evidence of widespread fraud in the 2020 election, used cellular geolocation data and Ballot Dropbox surveillance footage to track individuals who supposedly made at least 10 visits to drop boxes in the lead up to the election. Now, however, D'Souza says that surveillance footage may not have actually been correlated with the geolocation data and the surveillance videos used in the film were characterized on the basis of inaccurate information provided to me and my team. While he maintains that the underlying premise of the film holds true, D'Souza added that he would have produced and edited the film differently if he had been aware of the discrepancy between the surveillance footage and geolocation data. The Atlanta Journal Constitution has this story, and there's a link in today's episode Description all right, next up is our numbers section. The year that President George Washington exercised presidential pardon power for the first time was 1795, issuing amnesty to those engaged in Pennsylvania's Whiskey Rebellion. The number of pardons and commutations, respectively, issued by President Joe Biden as of October 17th is 25 and 132. According to the Justice Department, the number of pardons and commutations, respectively, issued by President Donald Trump during his first term was 144 and 94. The number of pardons and commutations, respectively, issued by President Barack Obama during his two terms was 212 and 1,715. The number of pardons and commutations, respectively, issued by President George W. Bush during his two terms was 189 and 11 the percentage of U.S. adults who approved of Hunter Biden's conviction on federal gun charges is 67%, according to a June 2024 Economist YouGov poll. The percentage of Joe Biden supporters who approved of Hunter Biden's conviction is 62%, and the percentage of Donald Trump supporters who approved of Hunter Biden's conviction is 86%. All right, and last but not least, our have a nice day story. Recently, over 30 pilot whales stranded themselves on a beach in New Zealand, a hotspot for beached whales. Without intervention, these whales would likely have died from dehydration or collapsing under their own weight. However, a team of conservation workers and residents came together to use sheets to transport the whales back to the water. It's amazing to witness the genuine care and compassion people have shown towards these magnificent animals, new Zealand Departure Department of Conservation spokesperson Joe Lauterbach said. CBS News has this story and there's a link in today's episode description all right, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to readtangle.com and sign up for a membership. You can also go to tangled media.supercast.com to sign up for a premium podcast membership, which will get you ad free Daily Podcasts Friday Edition Sunday editions interviews, bonus content and so much more. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace.
- [34:51]
Isaac Saul
Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by John Wall. The script is edited by our Managing editor, Ari Weitzman, Will Kdak, Bailey Saul and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bova, who is also our Social Media Manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75 and if you're looking for more from Tangle, Please go to retangle.com and check out our website.
- [35:34]
Advertiser 2
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