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Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day. But what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen@schwab.com WashingtonWise
Tangle Podcast Executive Producer
from executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle.
Isaac Saul
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of take. I'm your host Isaac Sowell, and I have to say it's a somber Wednesday morning in the wake of Lindsey Graham's death, the renewed fighting in Iran, and today's topic, which is a pair of DHS involved shootings in Maine and Texas. I honestly can't say I'm feeling particularly chipper. Covering our country can sometimes be a sad, ruthless and unrelenting pursuit, but I think it's critical that we don't look away when the stories get hard. So today I'm going to do my best to untangle these events and offer some clarity. And separately, we have the history of the Rosetta Stones discovery, a feel good story about World War II veterans, and a jam packed quick hit section. So it's not all bad. I'm joined today by Audrey Moorhead, our Associate editor, who is hosting the POD and also has a descent to my take today. And with that I I'll pass it over to Audrey and I'll be back for my take.
Audrey Moorhead
Thanks, Isaac. First up, I have today's quick hits. Number one Justices Elena Kagan and Amy Coney Berrett testified before House and Senate committees on the Supreme Court's budget for fiscal year 2027, telling lawmakers that increases in the budget were almost entirely for security expenses. It was the first appearance before Congress by Supreme court justices in seven years. 2. President Donald Trump held a Situation Room meeting to discuss ongoing US Strikes against Iran, reportedly focused on expanding the scale of the attacks. 3. The House voted 308 to 117 to pass legislation that would make Daylight Savings Time permanent in the United States, and the bill now heads to the Senate. 4. New York Governor Kathy Hochul signed an executive order banning the construction of new large scale data centers for one year, citing the strain these facilities cause on the state's electric grid. Number five. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimated that there are at least 7,000 cases of cyclospirasis in the US with the highest concentration in Michigan. The foodborne intestinal infection causes severe diarrhea and the agency is looking into several potential sources of the outbreak.
News Reporter
Another person was killed in a shooting involving ICE earlier today in Bidford, Maine, according to local officials. Eyewitnesses are disputing the account of federal officials in the fatal shooting of a Mexican national this week by an ICE agent in Houston, officials now admit the man killed was not the person they were targeting in an immigration operation.
Audrey Moorhead
In the past week, Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers were involved in deadly shootings in Texas and Maine. On Monday in Biddeford, Maine, an officer shot and killed a man who allegedly disregarded orders to stop his vehicle and attempted to flee. Separately, on Tuesday, July 7th in Houston, ice agents shot and killed a man whom they accused of weaponizing his vehicle during a traffic stop. State and local officials have called for investigations into both incidents. In Maine, the victim was identified as Johan Sebastian Duran Guerrero, a 25 year old Colombian national. According to independent Senator Angus King of Maine, Duran Guerrero was not the subject of officers deportation operations. King said that Department of Homeland Security Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen initially told lawmakers that the man tried to use his vehicle as a weapon, though the department later released a statement that described the victim as trying to flee the scene and that the officers feared for public safety. Two Maine based immigration advocacy groups claimed that Daron Guerrero was legally in the United States with work authorization and a Social Security number. Agents were not wearing body cameras when the shooting occurred, and Eyewitnesses have disputed DHS's version of events. On Tuesday, Maine's congressional delegation wrote to DHS to request an independent review of the incident, including a timeline of the encounter and an assessment of whether use of force procedures were followed by the Colombian Embassy also requested information and clarification from DHS. In Texas, Lorenzo Salgado Araujo, a 52 year old Mexican national said to be in the US illegally was killed by ICE officers during a traffic stop on July 7. DHS said that agents were conducting a targeted enforcement operation to arrest an illegal alien. An attempt to stop Salgado Araujo, after which he ignored verbal commands, rammed the officer's SUV and weaponized his vehicle, prompting an officer to shoot Salgado Araujo in the stomach. He later died at the hospital. Democratic Representative Sylvia Garcia of Texas, whose district includes the neighborhood where the shooting occurred, said that an ICE officer told her Salgado Araujo was not a target in agent's deportation operation. As in Monday's shooting in Maine, ICE officers in Houston were not wearing body cameras during the incident, and no footage of the shooting has emerged. A group of Democratic Texas lawmakers wrote to Secretary Mullen asking for a complete and transparent account of the encounter, while Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum announced she will file criminal complaints in the United States related to Mexican citizens who have died in the custody of U.S. immigration officials, including Salgado Araujo. In response to the shootings, DHS has instructed ICE Enforcement and Removal Operations agents to temporarily pause most vehicle stops during enforcement operations, except in cases involving serious criminal targets. However, on Wednesday, President Donald Trump reversed that order. Today we'll share perspectives from the right and left on the shootings, then I'll pass it back to Isaac for his take.
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break.
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Audrey Moorhead
First up, what the Ride is Saying the ride is mixed, with some saying the media has minimized Salgado Araujo's allegedly aggressive actions. Some say people are judging ICE's actions without the full facts. Others suggest that body cameras could address concerns from both sides. In the Federalist, Brianna Limon said the media burned Lorenzo Salgado Araujo's attempt to run over ICE agent An illegal alien from Mexico was fatally shot Tuesday after he allegedly tried to run over an ICE agent with his vehicle during an enforcement operation, according to the Department of Homeland Security. But you wouldn't necessarily glean that if you read some of the headlines from members of the propaganda press. In a CNN story, instead of leading with the details DHS says led to the shooting, Dahlia Fahed and Chris Boyet begin their story emphasizing Salgado Araujo's family and profession. CNN did not tell readers that Salgado Araujo allegedly tried to run the officer over, instead simply saying that Salgado Araujo attempted to evade arrest as agents tried to conduct a traffic stop as part of a targeted operation. He rammed into a law enforcement vehicle and refused to follow several verbal commands before an ICE agent fired his weapon in self defense, the agency told CNN in a statement Tuesday. The allegation that Salgado Araujo used his car as a deadly weapon prior to being fatally shot is central to the entire story, yet the propaganda press sidestepped or obfuscated it. In the Houston Chronicle, Kenny Webster wrote, stop rushing to judgment on ice. You do not get results by pretending the law only applies to some people. From what we've been told, Salgado Araujo was in the country illegally. ICE had every right and every reason to pick him up. According to the agents on scene, he ignored commands and used his vehicle in a way that put them in danger. It is possible Salgado Araujo did not fully grasp how fast things can go bad when you are behind the wheel and law enforcement is telling you to stop. But cars are weapons, too. When someone chooses to use one aggressively instead of complying, the odds of a bad outcome go way up. The second the story broke in Houston, the left script started writing itself again. ICE lies. ICE is out of control. This is just like Renee Goode and Alex Preddy. It is not that simple. They chose to interfere and resist, and when you do that while a vehicle is involved or while fighting with officers, the risk goes way up. If you comply with law enforcement, your chances of walking away in one piece go way up. His family is grieving now, and they deserve the facts, not people turning his death into a political weapon. Before anyone knows what actually happened, figure out what actually went down in Houston. Salgado Araujo's family deserves that much and so does everyone else. In the Washington Examiner, Zachary Faria argued Body Cameras can flip the ICE debate the widespread use of body cameras neutered anti police sentiment and the Black Lives Matter movement. It should be a top priority of the Trump administration to fit all Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers with body cameras quickly so as to do the same to the Abolish ICE movement. Since public sentiment is against ice, it is clear that body cameras are the best tool at the agency's disposal. The widespread adoption of body cameras among police officers proved that the trained professionals tasked with keeping people safe more often than not handle their job exceptionally well. ICE officers need the same thing. Activists can spin whatever tail they want, but it makes a difference when the public can see video of Renee Goode being told to get out of her car before she attempts to run over an ICE officer, or when video shows Alex Preddy with a gun in his waistband physically fighting with Border Patrol agents. Both of those videos, courtesy of cell phone recordings, came out late in the narratives. ICE officers equipped with body cameras would have been able to neuter those narratives before they got rolling, and likely would have done the same in Houston and Maine as these latest incidents, with no concrete details, catch fire in lib. That's it for what the right is saying now, what the left is saying the left views the shootings critically with many saying ICE has not earned the benefit of the doubt. Some argue that ICE needs higher standards for using lethal force. Others criticize the lack of visibility and accountability around the officers identities and actions. In Ms. Now, John Pfaff argued ICE deserves skepticism. The swift wariness of ice's account is well earned given the agency's increasingly documented acts of seeming deception and dishonesty, certainly when it comes to claims of vehicle weaponization in particular, but more broadly as well. Perhaps most famously, ice's claim in Minneapolis that Renee Goode attempted to run down ICE agent Jonathan Ross was carefully debunked by the New York Times. Unfortunately, it is not clear if this growing mainstream distrust of ICE's defensive violence will translate into any more accountability for ICE, at least in this case. The FBI has already announced that it is investigating the shooting, but the shifting media tone is important. It both reflects the increasingly low popularity of Trump's aggressive immigration tactics and will likely push that support lower still. And even if ICE officers face little risk of formal legal accountability, their commanders may not be able to ignore growing political backlash. In the Portland Press Herald, John F. Cox III said law enforcement does not have a carte blanche to kill. Renee Goode's life mattered, as did Alex Preddy's Lorenzo Salgado Araujo's life mattered, too. The life of the person killed by ICE in Biddeford Monday morning mattered. In 1985, the Supreme Court ruled that the use of deadly force was constitutionally permissible only when, under the totality of circumstances, its use was necessary to prevent the felon's escape and the officer had probable cause to believe that the suspect posed a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others. And, where feasible, some warning that the officer was going to shoot was given. This last requirement was important because it afforded a person the chance to choose life to submit to law enforcement so as to avoid being killed. Applying this standard, the court ruled that a Tennessee law that allowed police to shoot any fleeing felon regardless of circumstance was unconstitutional. History has shown that the judicial solution simply comes too late for a citizen staring down the barrel of an officer's gun. It is time to hold federal law enforcement accountable. In the Guardian, Jamil Smith asked, how long will ICE be allowed to hide its face? At least two of the surviving passengers dispute the DHS account, saying no agent stood in front of the van and that the shots came through its passenger side. No released footage supports the government's version. Whatever investigators establish about every disputed second, the encounter has exposed something larger for years, the laziest response to police violence has been that the dead would still be alive had they simply obeyed. That argument was always inadequate. Here it nearly collapses altogether, because obedience requires recognition. Salgado Araujo's son believes that when armed men in unmarked vehicles pursued him, his father feared they were criminals trying to steal the tools with which he earned his living. Uniforms, visible names, marked vehicles and cameras are not cosmetic. They are how democratic governments distinguish lawful authority from armed strangers exercising force. A government that conceals its identity cannot demand perfect recognition from frightened civilians. ICE mistook Lorenzo Salgado Araujo for another man. He was expected to identify ICE instantly. Only one side was allowed to make an error. That's it for what the right and left are saying now. I'll head back to Isaac for his take.
Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to my take. Sometimes, in order to see the truth of a situation, it can be helpful to shift the lens you are viewing it through. So I'm going to ask you, the reader, to imagine a hypothetical for me. Let's imagine you've immigrated to another country, whether for work or retirement or family, and you're trying to start a new life. This country could be Mexico or Italy or China or Japan. It doesn't really matter. After you've been there for a few years, news breaks that the government is going to begin a massive deportation effort of people from a set of countries, including the one you immigrated from. You're living there legally, but many other Americans are there illegally, and you're being warned by friends and family that your legal status may not protect you from discrimination or worse, detention and violence. As the deportation effort ramps up, you see news clips of masked men in unmarked SUVs stopping cars driven by people who look like you, and you're reading news reports of those people having their rights violated. And in some cases, you're even seeing viral videos of those people, those who look like you, being shot and killed by officers. Then one day, an unmarked SUV tries to pull you over.
Charles Schwab Podcast Host
Or maybe it just cuts you off
Isaac Saul
on the road before mass agents jump out with their guns drawn. What is your first instinct? Is it to freeze? Is it to comply? Is it to flee? What if your kids are in the car? What if the men are screaming threats at you? Passing judgment on the victims in these videos feels impossible to me. I've spent a lot of time around guns, and I've even had one pointed at me twice in my life. Once in Israel by an Israeli soldier for trespassing and a second time by a very stupid friend who thought it was funny to shamelessly ignore gun etiquette. It's hard to describe the clarity and incomprehensibility in those moments, the sharpness of the world around you, the panic in your chest, the evaporation of rational thinking, and the complete takeover by your lizard brain. Just a simple lens shift like this has a profound effect on me in a way that I find terribly discomforting. Now let's abandon the hypothetical and look at what is before us. Eleven people, including three US Citizens, have now been killed by federal agents involved in Trump's deportation efforts. Since he took office, 22 people have been shot at. Hundreds more have been violently beaten, dragged from cars or otherwise unjustly detained despite being US Citizens or having proper paperwork. In the past week's ICE shooting in Houston and Maine, the similarities are almost uncanny. Neither victim appears to have been the target of immigration enforcement operations when the shootings occurred. Body cameras were not being worn or not recording in either case, despite the federal government ramping up funding for such cameras a few months ago after previous immigration enforcement efforts led to people dying. In both cases, the federal government has claimed the men use their cars to either flee or to try to harm law enforcement agents. In both cases, eyewitness accounts directly contradict the accounts of the federal agents who are conducting the attempted arrest. In both cases, there is no clear video or up close angle that corroborates either account. The Washington Examiner Zachary Faria under what the Right Is Saying, a writer whom I respect suggested that while few details are clear about these most recent cases, it is more likely that ICE is telling the truth about these incidents than the rabidly anti ICE activists and Democratic politicians. I have no idea why this would be so since 2025 and nearly every high profile example of federal agents committing violence against citizens or illegal immigrants that we've had video evidence for the eyewitness and video accounts have been much more reliable than the federal government's. This was true of Renee Good, whom the feds accused of being a domestic terrorist trying to kill ICE agents with her car, and Alex Preddy, whom the feds claim was brandishing a weapon a domestic terrorist and tried to murder federal agents in those killings. Prosecutors only just got evidence like statements and body camera footage from the federal government and only after a judge forced them to hand over that evidence. This was true of the three violent illegal aliens who violently beat a law enforcement officer. A still live DHS statement claims the men ambushed the officers before those officers shot them, only for video evidence to show the entire assault allegation was a fabrication. The DHS agent who pulled the trigger is now the subject of criminal charges. We've seen this pattern again and again and again. As I wrote after Good's death, ICE agents are never supposed to position themselves in front of a vehicle or approach it from the front for precisely this reason. DHS officers are generally prohibited from discharging a firearm at a moving vehicle unless someone is using their car as a deadly weapon and no other objectively reasonable means of a defense is available. DHS also has use of force rules, which are relatively straightforward and include a baseline respect for human life and the communities we serve, emphasizing de escalation tactics as a core component. In other words, it's not just on the subjects of these stops to comply and do exactly as they're told. Federal agents have agency and rules they must follow, too, and they work for us. In the cases of Salgado, Araujo and Durang Guerrero, there isn't enough evidence to directly undermine or contradict the DHS statements, at least not yet. It is literally eyewitness accounts and grainy video footage versus the word of federal agents and the government. But the information we have is pretty alarming. Neither man had a criminal record. It does not appear either man was the actual target of an enforcement effort. One was here legally on a work permit. Both were parents raising families here and by all accounts, working hard and providing for those families. The idea that either would be compelled to try to kill federal agents with their vehicles one random summer day in July strikes me as absurd. As I've been saying since Trump took office, confrontations with immigration officials are only going to get more dangerous. This is America distrusting government. Force is in our national DNA. You cannot send armed, mass, unidentifiable men into the streets with minimal training and little oversight and give them carte blanche to stop and detain anyone who looks like an illegal immigrant. Not only will some people resist, but some officers will make mistakes. This is not a responsible way to carry out immigration enforcement in the United States. If it were happening in another country, we'd be enraged and call it an authoritarian overreach. Look at how ICE agents approach a woman, an American citizen, with guns drawn, demanding she comply when there is no crime being committed. Look at an ICE agent just yesterday stop their vehicle in front of a car on the highway and then walk up and pepper spray the car's vents. These incidents are now a daily occurrence. Excessive force, incompetence, Unnecessary violence and genuinely authoritarian looking actions have been happening since 2025 so regularly that I can usually find dozens of clips in minutes on any given day. As I've written again and again, the best way to solve our immigration crisis would be comprehensive reform that pairs a crackdown on illegal border crossings with the expansion of work permits and legal status. We should welcome immigrants here, but do it in an organized and controlled manner. Republicans generally focus on the crackdown without the expansion of legal status, while Democrats generally focus on expanding legal status without the crackdown. Trump, alternatively, has opted for a maximally confrontational mass deportation effort paired with political rhetoric designed to drum up fear and demonization of anyone who is here illegally. So as we solve for the future, we also have to solve for the present. The reality now is that millions of immigrants are here illegally and that our current solution to that problem is leading to the violation of basic rights and state sponsored violence against citizens and non citizens alike. The only way to stop this madness is genuine accountability. Neither agent in recent shootings was wearing or using the body cameras they were assured were being deployed, or if they were, the evidence from those cameras is being suppressed. In either case, that alone should be cause for corrective action. Agents involved in violent encounters, be it with people here illegally, legally or U.S. citizens, should be taken off duty while investigations play out. Those investigations need to happen independently. States should be doing what Minnesota has tried to do and ensure these federal agents face actual inquiries from outside their own agencies. All of this needs to start happening now, lest these encounters tear the fabric of our society apart. It is not an exaggeration to say that the tension between US Citizens and federal law enforcement agents feels like a ticking time bomb, and it is the federal government's job to ensure that time bomb doesn't go off. That means taking active measures to increase trust and decrease the rates of these incidents. Halting all vehicle encounters was a good and sensible start, but President Trump has already reversed that order. Either way, it would have only been a start. The only way forward is more accountability and more rules to ensure American citizens and residents are protected. All right, that is it for my take. We have a staff dissent today from Associate Editor Audrey Moorhead.
Audrey Moorhead
Thanks Isaac. This is Audrey, back with the staff dissent. While I'm disturbed by this latest instance of ICE involved violence, I also still struggle to envision a situation in which I personally would resist government attempts to detain me, like so many victims in these cases have. Isaac appeals to the lizard brain instinctual reaction to argue that it's hard to criticize the victims here. But from personal experience, my instinctive reaction to implicit threats of violence is not to fight, it's to fawn or comply. And I think in encounters with law enforcement officers, there's a good reason for that. When I'm opposite someone carrying a deadly weapon, the outcome of any other reaction is likely to be much worse. It's hard for me to imagine myself attempting to drive away from an armed agent telling me to pull over or step out of my car, however unjust it might be. Obviously, some people who comply with law enforcement end up being victims anyway, but incidents like these only reinforce my view that complying with demands from law enforcement is the most important ingredient in avoiding deadly encounters. Foreign.
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break.
Charles Schwab Podcast Host
Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day, but what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen@schwab.com Washingtonwise
AllTrails Narrator
we all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes, nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it, but the outdoors is closer than we realize. With Alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today and make the most of your summer with Alltrails.
Audrey Moorhead
Next up, we have a this Day in history segment. On July 15, 1799, during Napoleon Bonaparte's campaigns in Egypt, French soldiers were digging for the foundation of a fort in the port city of Rosetta, modern day Rashid, when they found a strange stone in an old wall. Commanding officer Pierre Francois Bouchard realized that the stone bore inscriptions in three different scripts. Believing it to be of immense importance, he alerted Napoleon of his discovery. Bouchard's instincts were correct. He had found the Rosetta Stone, which would be the key to deciphering Egyptian hieroglyphics. In 1801, when the French surrendered, the British received the Rosetta Stone alongside other important artifacts as part of the terms of the Treaty of Alexandria. They transported the stone back to England, where it has been displayed in the British Museum since 1802. Egyptian hieroglyphics passed out of regular use sometime in the 4th century AD and the ability to read them faded soon afterward. But the Rosetta Stone's inscriptions were an ancient Greek, Egyptian Demotic script, or a simplified form of writing common in daily life, and hieroglyphs. Because the stone's text was the same in each language, 19th century scholars were able to read the Greek inscription on the Rosetta Stone. They used the Greek message to decode the meaning of the hieroglyphic inscriptions, first by identifying hieroglyphs that corresponded to the name Ptolemy. The stone's decree is a priestly message dating back to about 196B.C. Declaring that the Macedonian Ptolemy V was the rightful divine ruler of Egypt. Finally, we have a have a nice day story. Roughly 16.4 million Americans served in World War II, but as of 2025 just 45,418 are still alive. Rishi Sharma is on a mission to document their stories for the past decade. Sharma, now 28 years old, has interviewed over 3,000 World War II combat veterans, and he plans to talk to as many of them as he can. The project, called remember World War II, aims to preserve the memories of the people who took part in one of the most consequential events in human history. Sharma said, quote, there are real Superhero World War II vets out there and I want to meet them. Cbs Evening News has the story and you can find the link in the show notes. That brings us to the end of today's podcast. If you would like to support our work, head over to readtangle.com where you can pick up a newsletter subscription, a podcast subscription or a bundle membership that gets you a discount on both. We will be right back here tomorrow, but in the meantime this has been Associate Editor Audrey Moorhead. On behalf of everyone else, have a nice day and peace.
Isaac Saul
Our Executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul and our Executive producer is John Wall. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is literally led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will Kbach and Associate Editors Audrey Moorhead, Lindsay Knuth and Bailey Saul. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75.
Charles Schwab Podcast Host
To learn more about Tangle and to
Isaac Saul
sign up for a membership, please visit our website@readtangle.com.
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Tangle Podcast Executive Producer
Have a kid? Buy that house? What if you could know with certainty what you should do before you do it. Disruption is a new play about six friends, one dinner and a technology that knows them better than they know themselves. A provocative new play about love, ambition and the cost of certainty. Off Broadway at the Pershing Square Signature Center, July 22 through September 13. Tickets@disruptionplay.com.
Episode: The ICE shootings in Maine and Texas
Host: Isaac Saul
Date: July 15, 2026
Special Guest: Audrey Moorhead, Associate Editor
In this particularly somber episode, host Isaac Saul and Associate Editor Audrey Moorhead break down two fatal shootings involving ICE agents in Maine and Texas. The episode explores the conflicting accounts, legal complexities, and political ramifications of these incidents, presenting arguments from the right and left—and includes personal reflections from both editors. The discussion also touches on broader issues of accountability and law enforcement practices, especially under President Donald Trump’s ongoing aggressive deportation policy.
Biddeford, Maine:
Houston, Texas:
Policy Response:
Media Critique: Right-leaning commentators (e.g., The Federalist) accuse outlets like CNN of downplaying ICE’s version of events, focusing too much on victims’ families rather than the context of alleged aggressive acts.
Compliance Emphasis: Kenny Webster (Houston Chronicle) argues compliance with law enforcement is the best way to avoid deadly outcomes.
“Cars are weapons, too. When someone chooses to use one aggressively instead of complying, the odds of a bad outcome go way up.” — Kenny Webster, [11:55]
Body Camera Advocacy: Washington Examiner’s Zachary Faria champions mandatory bodycams for ICE—arguing they'd reduce anti-ICE sentiment and clarify contentious incidents.
“It should be a top priority of the Trump administration to fit all Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers with body cameras quickly...” — Zachary Faria, [12:55]
Skepticism of ICE Accounts:
“The swift wariness of ICE's account is well earned given the agency's increasingly documented acts of seeming deception and dishonesty.” — John Pfaff, Ms. Now, [13:40]
High Bar for Use of Lethal Force:
Accountability & Transparency:
“Uniforms, visible names, marked vehicles and cameras are not cosmetic. They are how democratic governments distinguish lawful authority from armed strangers exercising force.” — Jamil Smith, [15:19]
Empathy & Role Reversal: Saul challenges listeners to imagine being immigrants in a hostile country, forced to instinctively react to unidentifiable armed men—emphasizing the chaos and fear of these moments.
“Passing judgment on the victims in these videos feels impossible to me...the sharpness of the world around you, the panic in your chest, the evaporation of rational thinking, and the complete takeover by your lizard brain.” — Isaac Saul, [18:52]
Pattern of Force & Distrust:
Policy Critique:
Argues that without independent investigations and accountability, these incidents will tear at social trust.
Applauds initial DHS pause on vehicle stops (later reversed).
Urges comprehensive reform—a balanced mix of enhanced border enforcement and legal immigration opportunities.
Notable Quote:
“You cannot send armed, mass, unidentifiable men into the streets with minimal training and little oversight and give them carte blanche to stop and detain anyone who looks like an illegal immigrant. Not only will some people resist, but some officers will make mistakes. This is not a responsible way to carry out immigration enforcement in the United States.” — Isaac Saul, [22:15]
"When I'm opposite someone carrying a deadly weapon, the outcome of any other reaction is likely to be much worse. Incidents like these only reinforce my view that complying with demands from law enforcement is the most important ingredient in avoiding deadly encounters." — Audrey Moorhead, [27:34]
On Media Framing:
“The allegation that Salgado Araujo used his car as a deadly weapon prior to being fatally shot is central to the entire story, yet the propaganda press sidestepped or obfuscated it.” — Brianna Limon, The Federalist ([11:50])
On Transparency:
“ICE officers equipped with body cameras would have been able to neuter those narratives before they got rolling..." — Zachary Faria, Washington Examiner ([13:03])
On Legal Principles:
“The use of deadly force was constitutionally permissible only when…necessary to prevent the felon's escape and the officer had probable cause to believe that the suspect posed a significant threat…” — John F. Cox III, Portland Press Herald ([14:38])
On Lived Experience:
"Obedience requires recognition. Salgado Araujo's son believes that when armed men in unmarked vehicles pursued him, his father feared they were criminals..." — Jamil Smith, The Guardian ([15:22])
On Growing Tension:
“It is not an exaggeration to say that the tension between US citizens and federal law enforcement agents feels like a ticking time bomb, and it is the federal government's job to ensure that time bomb doesn't go off.” — Isaac Saul ([25:48])
| Segment | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------|------------| | News Hits | 02:54 | | Shooting Summaries | 04:13–07:34| | Perspectives from the Right | 10:05 | | Perspectives from the Left | 13:27 | | Isaac Saul’s Take | 17:36 | | Moorhead’s Dissent | 27:12 |
For those who haven’t listened: This episode provides a fair, thorough exploration of two tragic encounters between ICE and civilians—delving into factual disputes, media portrayals, and policy reactions from all sides. It leaves listeners with big questions about the price of immigration enforcement, civil liberties, and the character of American democracy.