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- [00:00]
John Law
Hey, it's Marc Maron from WTF here to let you know that this podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. And I'm sure the reason you're listening to this podcast right now is because you chose it well. Choose progressives. Name your price tool and you could find insurance options that fit your budget. So you can pick the best one for your situation. Who doesn't like choice? Try it@progressive.com and now some legal info. But Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
- [00:34]
Paige Desorbo
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- [01:22]
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- [01:33]
John Law
Because there's always something new.
- [01:35]
Paige Desorbo
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- [01:37]
John Law
With that extra 5% off when I.
- [01:38]
Paige Desorbo
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- [01:55]
Paige Desorbo
From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle.
- [02:10]
Will Kbach
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, a place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and. And a little bit of our take. I'm your host today, senior editor Will Kbach, and we're gonna be covering a topic today that if you've been on social media for the past few weeks, if you've been following the headlines in most major news outlets, you've probably read a bit about but maybe haven't fully dived into, and that is these reports of massive fraud schemes that have been uncovered in Minnesota, specifically perpetrated by members of the Somali American community. In Minnesota. Now, I am a Minnesota native. I actually just got from being home for Thanksgiving and this was something that a lot of people at home were talking about. It has angered a lot of people in the community. It has raised some uncomfortable questions. The exact response from politicians and lawmakers in the state is still being scrutinized and now it's also come to the national level with President Trump and Vice President J.D. vance weighing in on it yesterday during a Cabinet meeting. Lots of other debate and discussion happening touched on a few different issues. So we're going to get into all of that and break it down in the typical Tangle style. Before we do, though, very excited to share that the full video of our recent live event in Irvine, California is now live on our YouTube page. So just as a quick refresher for those of you who don't know, at the end of October, we hosted a live event that kind of brought the Tangle newsletter to the stage. And the stage was at the Irvine Barclay Theater. Now the evening provided us with another awesome opportunity to meet and mingle with the Tangle community. Some of you who were there may be listening right now and shout out again for coming out and supporting and it was really awesome to meet all of you. But of course, the main event was a roundtable discussion that was moderated by our own Executive editor, Isaac Saul, and featured a panel made up of Axios, Alex Thompson, the Young Turks, Anna Kasparian, and our own editor at large, Camille Foster. Tackling immigration, gerrymandering, the 2028 presidential election, and a lot more. It was a really fascinating and robust conversation. As somebody who was listening to it backstage, I was personally scintillated throughout and I think the video that our team has produced does it justice and should be an engrossing watch. So we'd love if you could go check it out. And again, it is up on our YouTube channel. We'll put the link to it in today's show Notes. Thanks again for your support. All right, with that, I'm going to hand it over to John to run us through today's topic, what the left and right are saying, and then I will jump back in with my take. John, over to you.
- [04:56]
John Law
Thanks, Will, and welcome everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, Republican candidate Matt Van Epps defeated Tennessee State Representative Afton Boehn in a closely watched special election in the state's 7th congressional district. VANEPS will replace Representative Mark Green, who resigned earlier this year. Number two, the multinational retailer Costco filed a suit in the US Court of International Trade on Friday, seeking a full refund for import costs imposed on the company by President Trump's reciprocal tariffs in advance of a December 15th liquidation deadline. The Supreme Court is currently considering the legality of Trump's authority to issue the duties. Number three the Department of Homeland Security announced in a memo on Tuesday that it will pause all immigration applications from 19 countries, citing the shooting of two National Guard troops by an Afghan national near the White House on Thursday. The directive subjects immigrants from those countries who entered the US on or after January 20, 2021 to a comprehensive re review. Number four Russian officials called the five hour meeting between US special envoy Steve Witkoff, President Trump's son in law Jared Kushner, and Russian President Vladimir Putin on Tuesday constructive but said no agreement was reached to end the war in Ukraine. Separately, Ukraine conducted drone strikes on two Russian oil tankers off the coast of Turkey on Sunday. And number five Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth said he did not know about the second strike that killed two survivors of an initial strike on an alleged Venezuelan drug boat until after it happened. Hegseth added that the military made the correct decision in conducting the follow up strikes.
- [06:43]
Isaac Saul
A massive fraud scheme uncovered in Minnesota found money intended for social services has been allegedly siphoned indirectly into the pockets of the Somali terrorist group Al Shabaab. Somali immigrants in Minnesota have reportedly been abusing systems meant to help the most unfortunate among us, including the latest federally funded autism services. The autism fraud scheme reportedly amassed $14 million through Medicare claims for services that were never provided involving kids who never had autism. And the Somali immigrants behind this web of schemes have allegedly stolen billions from taxpayers, much of the money going back to the Somali government, where it would then end up in the hands of terrorists.
- [07:23]
John Law
Federal prosecutors have charged dozens of people with defrauding Minnesota special programs since 2020, and recent reporting shows that the perpetrators were predominantly Somali American. In November, a report authored by Ryan Thorpe and Christopher Ruffo and published in City Journal, a periodical funded by the conservative think tank the Manhattan Institute, highlighted the fraud's concentration among the state's Somali community and claimed the funds were partially directed to the Somali based terrorist group Al Shabaab. On Monday, Treasury Secretary Scott Besant announced that the agency would be opening an investigation into governor Tim Walls oversight of the programs beset by alleged fraud. The House Oversight Committee opened its own probe into the programs on Tuesday. For context, Minnesota has been dealing with a series of high profile welfare fraud cases, most notably the Feeding Our Future fraud scheme. Feeding Our Future was founded in 2016 to sponsor daycares and after school programs to enroll in the federal Child nutrition program, and it received $3.4 million in federal funding in its first year. However, the program massively expanded during the pandemic, taking in nearly $200 million in funding in 2021. Since then, more than 70 defendants have been charged with stealing over $250 million in federal nutrition funds. Additionally, Minnesota's Medicaid Housing Stabilization Services program, launched in 2020 to help seniors, addicts, the disabled and the mentally ill secure housing, was predicted to cost $2.6 million annually. Instead, payouts reached $21 million in 2021 and rose to $104 million in 2024, and federal prosecutors have been investigating the program and two suspects have pleaded guilty to fraud as of November. Lastly, the US Attorney's Office for the District of Minnesota is investigating the state's Early Intensive Developmental and Behavioral Intervention autism programs for potential fraud. In September, the U.S. attorney announced its first charge in the EIDBI scheme, accusing a defendant of filing false support therapy services and defrauding the program of $14 million. The City Journal report centered the fraud schemes perpetrated on Minnesota programs on the state's roughly 80,000 person Somali community. Citing law enforcement officials, the report alleged that the defrauded funds were sent back to Somalia and ultimately accessed by the Sunni Islamist militant group Al Shabaab. However, the report did not offer detailed proof to support its claim. The bottom line is that we couldn't substantiate it, legislative Auditor Judy Randall told the Minnesota Star Tribune. In November, President Donald Trump announced that he intended to terminate temporary legal protections for Somali immigrants living in Minnesota. The legal protection is due to expire in March 2026. Trump then denigrated Somali immigrants living in the US at the end of the Cabinet meeting on Tuesday, saying their country stinks and we don't want them in our country. Meanwhile, many Democrats acknowledge the fraud but defend Minnesota's Somali community and stress the lack of evidence to tie Al Shabaab to the scheme. Do not paint an entire group of people with the same brush, putting them at risk when there is no proof to do that, governor Walsh said. But if you want to help us and you want to go after the criminals and make sure there's no connection or find out where the money went. We welcome that. Today we'll take a look at what the left and right are saying about the allegations, as well as some writers from Minnesota, and then Senior Editor Will Kbach will give his take.
- [10:52]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick.
- [10:54]
John Law
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- [12:01]
Paige Desorbo
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- [12:04]
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- [12:15]
John Law
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- [12:16]
Paige Desorbo
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- [12:18]
John Law
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- [12:20]
Paige Desorbo
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- [12:21]
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- [12:40]
John Law
Alright, first up, let's start with what the left is saying. The left says the fraud cases highlight real issues, but push back on attempts to frame Somali Americans as collectively responsible. Others suggest the state can take straightforward steps to patch its benefits system. In Bloomberg, Patricia Lopez said we can stop fraud in Minnesota without attacking Somalis. Minnesota has seen an extraordinary rash of fraud in taxpayer funded programs. Recently. More than 70 people have been charged, including several Somalis. But one of the most important principles of law is that individuals are held accountable for individual behavior, not entire populations. To do otherwise risks making scapegoats of innocent people, lopez wrote. Trump's broadside against temporary protected status may not even affect those Somalis accused of fraud. Only 400 or so individuals in the state still rely on tps. Minnesota is home to the largest Somali community in the country, about 80,000, a majority of whom are citizens or permanent residents. The way to handle Minnesota's real struggles with fraud is to find and bring justice to the actual perpetrators. America is never at our best when we tar an entire community with the crimes of a few individuals. During World War II, this country locked up thousands of Japanese lest some undermine the war effort, lopez said. American Muslims endured years of suspicion in the wake of 9 11. If the Justice Department or USCIS finds evidence of fraud or wrongdoing in Minnesota's Somali community, it should pursue that evidence wherever it leads, but judge individual cases on their merits. In slow, boring, Halina Bennett wrote about Minnesota's long road to restitution. Federal prosecutors say dozens of defendants, many of whom they identify as Somali Americans, created shell companies and submitted false invoices, diverting hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars. But investigations are ongoing, and they reveal how oversight gaps allowed more than $1 billion in Minnesota taxpayer dollars to be stolen over the past five years, Bennett said the Minnesota cases underscore a systems issue. Fraud thrives where oversight is minimal and enforcement is slow. This summer, the state passed first of its kind legislation creating a dedicated restitution fund for victims. Half of all money recovered from consumer protection and fraud enforcement actions must now be deposited into this account rather than the state's general fund. The goal is to ensure that to the extent that money is recovered, the victims are made as whole as possible, bennett wrote. However, the fund doesn't guarantee full recovery, especially for complex schemes and of course, when the victim is the government itself. The question of apportioning money between victims and the general fund doesn't ar.
- [15:29]
Alright. That is it for what the left is saying. Which brings us to what the right is saying. Many on the right view the fraud cases as a cautionary story about immigration. Others say the Somali American community must work to root out fraud. In City Journal, Christopher F. Rufo argued the Somali fraud story busts liberal myths. Minnesota has long prided itself on its generous welfare programs and reputation for good governance. But but after the mass arrival of the new Somali population, many of whom brought with them different attitudes toward government and civil society, these programs became a weak point, rufo said. The uncomfortable truth is that all cultures are not equal. Therefore, not all cultures are compatible with all political systems. In this case, the Somali criminal enterprise is incompatible with a generous welfare state, particularly in the context of a racial politics that intimidates whistleblowers and honest brokers. Though this story was particular to Minnesota, disruptive mass immigration is a national phenomenon. During the four years of the Biden administration, America imported millions of foreigners, many illegally. Some of these have brought or are trying to bring negative aspects of their home culture to the United States, ruffo wrote. The Trump administration claims to be on pace to shatter records of forced deportations and so called self deportations, but more must be done. The administration should put financial restrictions on illegal immigrants, like requiring proof of legal status for maintaining a bank account, and implement massive remittance taxes to reduce the profitability of illegal immigration and fraud in the Wall Street Journal, Jason L. Riley asked, can Minnesota's Somalis rise above the fraud scandal? Of those charged in the cases involving alleged fraud against meals, housing and autism programs, 78 out of 86 defendants are of Somali ancestry. Since the 1990s, when civil war broke out in the East African nation, Minnesota has welcomed tens of thousands of Somali refugees. Today, the state's Somali diaspora numbers about 80,000. Riley said the massive fraud was an open secret. Merrick Garland, who served as U.S. attorney General under Joe Biden, called it the largest pandemic relief hustle in the nation. Democratic state officials also suspected wrongdoing, but didn't want to upset an important voting bloc or be accused of racism. It's also true that Somalis are hardly the first migrant group to arrive in America with unwelcome cultural baggage. In the early 1900s, crime was so prevalent in New York's Jewish and Italian neighborhoods that a specialized detective force was established, Reilly wrote. These weren't merely negative perceptions or ugly stereotypes, and fortunately these groups were willing to face reality. Cultures can adapt, but that will require confronting the problem rather than ignoring it or pretending that anyone who speaks out is acting in bad faith.
- [18:14]
Alright, that is it for what the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to what Minnesotan writers are saying. Some Minnesotan writers argue the right is unfairly demonizing Somali Americans. Others question how fraud of this scale could occur on Governor Walsh's watch. In the Minnesota reporter Kay Samagan said right wing reporting on Somali money going to Al Shabaab is not new. Still misses the mark. I say this as an American of Somali ancestry who has investigated fraudsters and as someone who has written about it for the Reformer, I can't prove a negative. But the story, especially in all its sensationalism, appears to be little more than an effort by the right wing propaganda machine to whip up hatred against Somali Americans, magan wrote. Over the past three years, federal prosecutors in Minnesota have charged 78 people in what they have called the largest pandemic relief fraud in the country. If federal prosecutors had any inkling that the ill gotten gains were going to a terrorist organization, don't you think they'd have brought charges? The reality of the Somali American experience is that we came to the US in search of a better life. The vast majority of us are honest, law abiding citizens and have been appalled by those in the community who have preyed upon programs created to help low income Minnesotans, including Somali Minnesotans, megan said. Can more be done to root out fraud in Minnesota? Of course. I would also like to see fewer instances of Somali business owners reflexively organizing against measures designed to protect the integrity of our social programs. Regrettably, Thorpe and Rufo's vulture journalism provides an opening to those who seek to dismiss the problem of fraud in Minnesota as right wing demagoguery In Alpha News, Patrick Knight, a Republican candidate for governor in Minnesota, asked why so much fraud in Minnesota? The state improperly dispersed hundreds of millions of dollars across multiple programs. The patterns are strikingly consistent. Ever increasing funds were released quickly to the same types of organizations in similar locations with minimal oversight and and almost all of it happened from 2020 to 2022, Knight wrote. It is hard to accept that a state bureaucracy with more than 55,000 employees and a biennial budget of $70 billion somehow lack the basic controls that any private company would consider essential. The most realistic explanation is culture. Specifically, it is a failure of leadership culture in every organization. Culture begins at the top, knight said. The aftermath of George Floyd's death created a wave of political emotion around social justice and equity. The Walz administration rode the wave and talked constantly about equity, commonly described as an effort to engineer equal outcomes and correct historical wrongs. In that environment, the ends were treated as more important than the means. The priority was to move money quickly to favored groups. Guardrails were treated as obstacles. Oversight was treated as an afterthought. All right, let's head over to Will for his take.
- [21:14]
Will Kbach
Thanks, John. Hey everyone, it's Will jumping back in here to read my take. The alleged crimes in these cases are shocking and infuriating. This isn't just one fraud case. It's several. And it isn't just a handful of bad actors. It's dozens. It isn't just a low grade ripoff. It's over $100 billion that's allegedly been stolen. Perhaps worst of all, these weren't just any government funds either. They were earmarked to help Minnesota's most vulnerable people, children, the elderly, the homeless, and people with disabilities. We don't need to beat around the bush. These fraud cases have put a harsh spotlight on the Somali community in my home state of Minnesota and prompted some difficult questions about whether that community has disproportionately abused the state's social welfare system. So we're not going to beat around the bush. Let's just talk about it. First off, yes, the evidence does indicate that these crimes were concentrated among the Somali population. According to prosecutors, 78 of the 86 individuals charged so far in connection with the schemes have Somali ancestry, although most are American citizens. Not only that, but additional evidence suggests that Democratic leaders in Minnesota have been reluctant to confront that hard truth due to political and racial sensitivities. To wit, a 2024 report from Minnesota's Office of the Legislative Auditor found that, quote, the threat of legal consequences and negative media attention affected how the Minnesota Department of Education approached these fraud claims. In the Feeding Our Future case, some Somali American Minnesotans have even called out this dynamic more forcefully. Kaise McGann, a Somali American former investigator in the Medicaid Fraud division of the Office of Minnesota Attorney general, wrote in 2024 that fraudsters have also sought to exploit the burgeoning political power of the Somali community and the feckless fear that establishment politicians and state agencies show when confronted with charges of racism or Islamophobia. Now, the evidence of this fraud supporting terrorist networks is much weaker. In their City Journal piece, Ryan Thorpe and Christopher Rufo claimed that the stolen money was being funneled through Somali intermediaries to the Somalia based militant group Al Shabaab. However, this reporting has not been substantiated and US Prosecutors have not brought any terror related charges in their cases. Thorpe and Rufo didn't provide any paper trail or other evidence to show that this money ended up where they say it did, instead exporting this claim to law enforcement officials who also did not provide objective evidence. Of course this claim is disturbing and should be investigated further, but ultimately it's still up in the air. And as Minnesota's Legislative Auditor Judy Randall said, that doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it doesn't mean that it did happen. It's just that there wasn't enough evidence to definitively tie it. Even without that definitive link, though, the scale of the fraud should put Minnesota's Somali community under the microscope, as uncomfortable as it might be to say that. And it should also put the state's oversight methods under the microscope. Much of this is not unique to Minnesota. Covid era programs handed out billions of dollars from the federal government to support people during the pandemic shutdowns, and they created a massive opportunity for fraud. The Pandemic Response Accountability Committee estimates that over $79 billion was stolen from pandemic relief programs across the country. Something that is unique to Minnesota, however, is the level of social pressure created following George Floyd's murder in 2020. In its coverage of these fraud cases, the New York Times quoted a state prosecutor as saying that officials actively avoided bring for fear of allegations of racism. The state's expanded social programs and culture of avoiding uncomfortable litigation created a breeding ground for potential fraud. Add in an immigrant community from a country where fraud is commonplace and this is the result. But if we're being blunt about these uncomfortable questions, we should also be blunt about Christopher Rufo. Rufo has a history of inflaming culture war issues to be maximally divisive, and his attempt to link Minnesota's fraud to a Somali Islamist militant group fits that trend. His reporting seemed designed to grab the attention of President Trump and Vice President Vance, who are now leveraging the story to claim that Somalis are incompatible with American values, that their culture is inferior, and that fraud is an emergent feature of that culture. These are not dog whistles, they're explicit positions. Quote Norwegians in Minnesota behave similarly to Norwegians in Norway. Somalis in Minnesota behave similarly to Somalis in Somalia, rufo wrote last week. He continued, many cultural patterns from Somalia, particularly clan networks, informal economies, and distrust of state institutions, travel with the diaspora and have shown up in Minnesota as well. In the absence of strong assimilation pressures, the fraud networks aren't so surprising, end quote. Rufo does raise some salient points. Somalia is a dangerous country whose ineffective governance has made it a hotbed for international fraud and piracy for years. Additionally, having grown up in Minnesota, I can attest that the Somali community often seemed isolated or insulated from the broader, mostly white community. Now, at the same time, the Norwegians comparison that Rufo refers to isn't really an apples to apples comparison. Yes, they trace their ancestry to Scandinavia, but they've been in the US for generations where the Somali people that we're talking about are first or second generation Americans. Cultural incompatibility is real among this group, but it's also not permanent in the way that Rufo suggests. And as writers like Jason Riley noted under what the Right Is Saying, US History is rife with examples of migrant groups struggling to adapt when they first came to the country, but eventually assimilating completely. Fine. The solution that Rufo Trump and others are proposing is to cut the cord, stop allowing Somali immigrants into the US and seek to remove as many of those who are already here as possible. To me, that solution feels draconian and shortsighted. Research from the Minnesota Chamber of Commerce has shown that immigrants are upwardly mobile over time, with decreasing unemployment and poverty rates and increasing rates of workforce participation and educational attainment. This has also been true of the Somali immigrant community in Minnesota. Between 2000 and 2018, their poverty rate dropped from 62.9% to 47.6%, their workforce participation rate rose from 46.1% to 66.4%, and their homeownership rate rose from 1.7% to 9.4%. The efforts to flatten this group into a caricature of dysfunction and criminality, in President Trump's words, quote, they come from hell and they complain and do nothing but bitch. They ignore the evidence that the cultural assimilation they expect to happen is happening. It just takes time. Simultaneously, the onus is also on the Somali community to recognize that these fraud cases are not one off incidents. Magan, the Somali American fraud investigator who I quoted earlier, diagnosed this problem succinctly and he wrote, my experience as a fraud investigator has taught me that fraud occurs when desire meets opportunity. My community, like others, has its share of people who are poor, desperate and seek shortcuts. Many were skilled professionals whose experience and education credentials are not recognized in the U.S. as a result, they have had to resort to working menial jobs, which can be emotionally debilitating, while failing to deliver financial security. So with all of this in mind, the solution to me is eliminate the opportunities for fraud, aggressively investigate and prosecute crimes as they happen, and tackle the root causes. The first solution requires Minnesota legislators to prioritize safeguards over generosity in the state's robust social safety net. Some programs, like Medicaid housing stabilization services are now being scrapped entirely, and other blank check programs like this should also be subjected to enhanced scrutiny. Governor Tim Walz, clearly sensing his own political vulnerability, has now started down this path. But he started incredibly late and the effort may require a new governor to carry out. The second solution is also underway as prosecutors continue to bring charges against the alleged perpetrators of this fraud. That aggressive tack will need to continue both to dissuade would be fraudsters and to ensure that we have a full accounting for the scale of the alleged crimes that have already been committed. Now, finally, the third solution requires confronting those in the Somali community who have sought to steal from a state and a country that has already given them so much, and that is far more challenging. Of course, that has to start within the community itself, and leaders like Magan offer a blueprint for how to properly assess the problem without demonizing the group as a whole. Other leaders, like Representative Ilhan Omar have taken the opposite approach, positioning themselves as defiantly against the Trump administration while failing to acknowledge the real issues that these fraud cases have unearthed. I think that strategy ignores the very justified anger that many people feel about this story, and it risks exacerbating the animosity towards Somali immigrants that's now bubbling the surface. As with so many issues in today's politics, stories like this are presented as a false binary. You either must side with Trump, Vance, and Rufo in viewing Somali immigrants as a communal drain on US Society that needs to be banished, or you must align with Ilhan Omar and decry any criticism of the Somali community as bigoted and unfair before we can undertake any of the solutions that I've proposed or anyone else has proposed. Rejecting this binary is the essential first step to moving this conversation in a more productive direction. All right, that is it for my take today. I am going to pass it over to our associate editor, Audrey Moorhead, who has a dissent. We are going to be skipping today's reader question to give our main story some extra space. So after Audrey, we'll hand it over to John to take us home. All right, Audrey, over to you.
- [31:27]
Audrey Moorhead
This is Associate Editor Audrey Moorhead with the staff dissent. While I appreciate the nuances of Will's argument, he fails to address the claim that Somali immigrants might have more problems assimilating to U.S. culture than other immigrants. Will claims that Rufo's comparison between Norwegian immigrants and Somali immigrants isn't apples to apples because Norwegian immigrants have already been in Minnesota for generations. But the comparison might be more apt than he allows for. Ruffo cites research that cultural differences between immigrants and US Natives persist to some degree even into the fourth generation. If this research is accurate, it strengthens Rufo's argument that Somali culture, including its troubling relationship with government, might just be more difficult to assimilate into US Culture. Will is right that assimilation is a slow process, that Somali Americans are already making progress, and that demonizing and deporting the extant Somali community in Minnesota is unwarranted. But a reckoning with the cultural problems within the Somali community should be part of Will's solution to resolving this crisis.
- [32:32]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [32:37]
Paige Desorbo
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John Law
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Will Kbach
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John Law
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Will Kbach
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- [33:12]
John Law
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- [33:45]
Will Kbach
Foreign.
- [33:49]
John Law
Here'S your under the Radar story for today folks. The United states has recorded 17 mass killings so far in 2025, the lowest yearly total since 2006, according to a database maintained by the Associated Press and USA Today in partnership with Northeastern University. These events, defined as incidents in which four or more people are killed in a 24 hour period, not including the killer, are down 24% from 2024's total, which itself was down 20% from 2023. Criminologists suggest that the decrease is less of an emerging trend and more a regression to the mean, noting that mass killings were unusually common in 2018 and 2019. However, some also say that improvements in the immediate response to mass shootings and other mass casualty incidents could also be contributing to the decline. The Associated Press has this story and there's a link in today's episode description.
- [34:45]
Alright, next up is our numbers section. According to the Government Accountability Office, the total amount of improper payments paid out by the federal government in fiscal year 2024 was $162 billion. According to the New York Times, the total amount of money stolen across three fraud schemes in Minnesota was $1 billion, according to the U.S. district Attorney's office. In Minnesota, 78 defendants were charged in the Feeding Our Future fraud scheme. As of November 24, 2025, according to CBS News, the total amount of money stolen in the Feeding Our Future fraud scheme was $250 million. The predicted annual cost of Minnesota's Housing Stability Services program before its inaugural year in 2021 was $2.6 million. The total amount paid out by the program in 2024 was $104 million. The number of defendants initially charged with defrauding the House Stability services program was 8, and the amount of money the Minnesota District Attorney has charged a defendant with defrauding the EIDBI autism program is $14 million.
- [35:53]
And last but not least, our have a nice day story. Researchers in Italy have discovered a striking social phenomenon they've dubbed the Batman effect. The researchers had a visibly pregnant woman board a busy train and counted how many passengers offered her their seats. Then they repeated the experiment with a man dressed as Batman entering the train at the same time as the woman. They observed that 67% of passengers offered their seats when Batman was present, compared to roughly 37% when he wasn't. At the same time, 44% of people who offered their seats when Batman was present said they didn't notice him on the train. Unlike traditional mindfulness interventions that require active engagement, this study highlights how situational interruptions alone may be sufficient to produce similar effects. Francisco Pagnini, the study's lead author, said Futurism has this story and there's a link in today's episode description all right everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to readtangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership, or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'.
- [37:03]
Will Kbach
All.
- [37:04]
John Law
Peace.
- [37:05]
Isaac Saul
Our executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our executive producer is John Law. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, with Senior Editor Will K. Back and Associate Editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead, Bailey Saul, Lindsay Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@readtangle.com.
- [37:51]
Paige Desorbo
Hi, it's Paige desorbo from Giggly Squad. You ever stand in front of your closet and just say I have nothing to wear while you're literally surrounded by clothes because same so I started listing pieces. I'm over on Depop and honestly, it's been amazing. You can sell what you're done with and someone out there will love it. And the best part about it is there's no seller fee, so the money you make actually stays in your pocket, which feels very chic. It's also insanely easy. I listed something while watching TV and it sold before the episode even ended. So download the Depop app and list your first item today because your old outfit could be someone else's new favorite. Depop where taste recognizes taste Payment processing fees boosting fees still apply. For more info, visit depop.com hi, it's Paige Desorbo from Giggly Squad. You ever stand in front of your closet and just say I have nothing to wear while you're literally surrounded by clothes? Because same so I started listing pieces. I'm over on Depop and honestly, it's been amazing. You can sell what you're done with and someone out there will love it. And the best part about it is there's no seller fee, so the money you make actually stays in your pocket, which feels very chic. It's also insanely easy. I listed something while watching TV and it sold before the episode even ended. So download the Depop app and list your first item today because your old outfit could be someone else's new favorite. Depop where taste recognizes taste Payment processing fees boosting fees still apply. For more info, visit depop.com Dear Career.
- [39:25]
Will Kbach
Ladder, you've had your moment. You're linear and one dimensional. Ambition doesn't just go up anymore.
- [39:34]
Nordstrom Rack Announcer
It zigs and zags and squiggles where CEO executives founders.
- [39:40]
John Law
We're advising companies, launching side hustles, taking breaks, defining our next act ambition on our terms. The possibilities are endless. Chief Lead on join us@chief.com.