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- [00:00]
Upwork Announcer
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- [01:05]
Mayra Amit
A Mochi Moment from Mark who writes I just want to thank you for making GLP1s affordable. What would have been over $1,000 a month is just $99 a month with mochi. Money shouldn't be a barrier to healthy weight. Three months in and I have smaller jeans and a bigger wallet. You're the best. Thanks, Mark. I'm Mayra Amit, founder of Mochi Health. To find your Mochi moment, visit joinmochi Do. Is a Mochi member compensated for his story? From Executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle.
- [01:54]
Will Kbach
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of our take. I am back again as your host. This is Senior Editor Will Kbach, filling in for Isaac this week while he is abroad in Italy. Today's topic is a heavy one. We're going to be talking about two recent mass shootings here in the United States. Last Wednesday, shooting at the Immigration and Customs Enforcement facility in Dallas, Texas that killed one detainee who was in custody and injured two others. Also, the shooting and arson attack at the church in Michigan on Sunday. Associate editor Audrey Moorhead is going to give her take today. Audrey writes personally as a person of faith and gives her perspective on how the shooting on Sunday in particular affected her. She's also going to consider how these events fit into the rising tide of political violence that we've discussed, unfortunately at length in recent weeks and months in Tangle. I think she's got a great perspective and we're excited to share it with you. For now, I'm going to hand it over to John to read today's quick hits, introduce the story what the left and right are saying. I'll be back on in a bit to read the reader question and you'll hear from Audrey herself for the my take. All right, John, over to you.
- [03:23]
John Law
Thanks Will and welcome everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, President Donald Trump published a 20 point peace proposal for the war in Gaza. The plan would require Hamas to return all living and dead Israeli hostages within 72 hours of a ceasefire. It would also create a Board of Peace to oversee the rebuilding of Gaza. Hamas is reportedly leaning toward accepting the plan and will give its official response to Egyptian and Qatari mediators on Wednesday. Two President Trump and Democratic leaders did not reach an agreement on a possible deal to fund the government ahead of Wednesday night's midnight funding deadline. Democrats are seeking to increase healthcare spending and reverse Medicaid cuts in return for supporting a Republican led seven week funding extension. Number three YouTube agreed to pay $24.5 million to settle a 2021 lawsuit brought by President Trump, who sued the platform for banning his account after the January 6, 2021 Capitol riots. Number four, the Health and Human Services Department initiated the process of blocking Harvard University from receiving future research grants, also known as deb, as a result of a previous finding that the school failed to adequately address the harassment of Jewish students on campus. And number five, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and President Trump addressed a gathering of US Generals and admirals. Hegseth outlined a plan to overhaul the culture of the military, including new fitness standards this morning, a round the clock search for a motive after authorities say an Iraq war veteran unleashed a barrage of bullets during a packed service at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and set the building ablaze in Grand Blanc, Michigan. An aerial view showing what little is left of the church. You can hear probably the sirens behind me. Again, tons of police activity out here as folks race to the scene. As I'm sure Sean just reported, we're talking about three people shot who were in ICE custody.
- [05:30]
Will Kbach
A male shooter on the rooftop shot.
- [05:34]
John Law
Himself when approached by law enforcement on Sunday. An attacker drove a pickup truck into a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints chapel in Grand Blanc, Michigan, subsequently opening fire on churchgoers and setting the building on fire. At least four people were killed and eight others wounded and the suspect was killed by law enforcement responding to the scene. Grand Blanc police confirmed Monday afternoon that all churchgoers had been accounted for and it does not expect to find more victims. Officials have not identified a possible motive for the attack, but local reports and interviews have suggested that the suspect, a 40 year old former Marine, harbored ill will toward the church. The Federal Bureau of Investigation is investigating the event as an act of targeted violence, a note that due to the well documented contagion effect, tangle does not name shooters or suspects in high profile attacks. According to authorities, the attacker drove a pickup truck into the front of the chapel while services were underway, then exited the vehicle and began shooting at the hundreds of worshippers inside. Law enforcement also believes he set the building on fire using gasoline as an accelerant, and investigators reported that they discovered suspected explosive devices at the scene on Monday. Local City Council candidate Chris Johns said he believes he interacted with the suspect while canvassing less than a week prior to the attack. Johns described the man as extremely friendly, but said he sharply criticized the LDS Church and described the religion as the Antichrist. The FBI has taken over the investigation and said that they have interviewed over 100 people so far, but are still working to determine a motive. Separately, on Wednesday, a shooter opened fire at a U.S. immigration and Customs Enforcement field office in Dallas, Texas, killing two detainees and injuring another as they were arriving at the facility in a transport vehicle. The shooter later died of a self inflicted gunshot wound. The Department of Homeland Security reported that agents found shell casings inscribed with anti ICE messages near the suspect. Although the attackers shot ICE detainees, the DHS described the shooting as an attack on ICE officers, which the Dallas FBI later corroborated. Vice President J.D. vance claimed on Wednesday that he had reviewed evidence that shows that the shooter was a left wing extremist who was politically motivated to go after people who are enforcing our border. Today we'll share reactions to the shootings from the left and the right. Then Associate Editor Audrey Moorhead will give her take. We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [08:15]
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- [08:45]
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- [09:27]
John Law
Alright, first up, let's start with the point of agreement. Both sides mourn the lives lost in the shootings and share concern over the spate of high profile attacks across the U.S. alright, and now onto what the left is saying. Many on the left condemned the Dallas shooting and rising tide of political violence. Some criticized the Trump administration for hiding information about the shooting that doesn't fit its narrative. Others say lawmakers must renew their efforts to pass gun control legislation. The Washington Post editorial board said the ICE shooting shows how easily political violence boomerangs. A shooter at a Dallas Immigration and Customs Enforcement facility on Wednesday was apparently targeting law enforcement, but shot three detainees instead. The horrific episode serves as an allegory for how politically motivated violence almost never achieves its intended goal, the board wrote. Something similar happened in Atlanta last month when an anti vaccine shooter fired hundreds of bullets at six buildings at the headquarters of these Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. His rampage killed a responding officer who had nothing to do with the vaccines. Political violence, like school shootings, risks inspiring copycats unless forceful steps are taken. The ICE facility where Wednesday's shooting happened faced a bomb threat last month. Just two months ago, Patel said an individual ambushed officers at a nearby ICE facility, the board said. No one who perpetrates political violence deserves even the slightest sympathy, regardless of their ideological background or motives. This is essential to prevent attacks from being effective. In the Philadelphia Inquirer will Bunch wrote about what the Trump regime doesn't want you to know about the Dallas ICE shooting. The blood hadn't yet dried after a deadly Wednesday morning sniper attack on the U.S. immigration and Customs Enforcement detention site in Dallas, when top government officials started flooding the zone with the story they wanted to tell the public about it, bunch said. So often these days, what the Trump regime says is highly predictable. But what's much more revealing is what it doesn't say the thoughts and prayers politicians effortlessly and often mindlessly spout. Most mass shooting victims were few and far between, despite speedy news reports that one man had been killed by the Dallas sniper and two were critically wounded. Even worse was what the Trump regime didn't want you to know about the three detained immigrants who were the victims of the Dallas ICE shooting. Their names, bunch wrote. The victims identities aren't the only part of the story that ICE wants to sweep under the rug. Only under questioning did officials concede that the detainees were handcuffed and shackled and thus struggled unsuccessfully to flee when the shots began raining down. It's a foundational lie that immigrants who came to the US Seeking a better life are not human beings, or at least not worthy of human dignity, even when they are unjustly murdered or disabled by a madman, leaving their wives, children and mothers to ask why. In the Detroit Free Press, Bonnie A. Perry called on Michigan lawmakers to act on gun violence. The September 28th shooting and fire at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints congregation in Grand Blanc is reprehensible. We can presume that the shooter was angry. Clearly he was violent. There also may have been mental health issues involved, perry said. But what we know with complete and absolute certainty is that he had ready access to an assault style rifle. The availability of firearms makes this crime commonplace in the United States of America and unthinkable in almost every other country in the world. Right now the Michigan Legislature is debating how much to cut from gun violence prevention and mental health programs when we should be talking about how much more money we can invest in saving lives. What will it take for us as people of faith and people of goodwill to come together and create a common sense gun culture? What will it take Faith in God who reconciles all people and it will take you. It will take you calling your legislators. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying. Which brings us to what the right is saying. Many on the right see the Dallas shooting as the result of increasingly heated rhetoric about ice. Some say the shooting is another example of rising left wing violence. Others note the increasing rate of attacks on places of worship. The Wall Street Journal editorial board wrote about the anti ICE shooting in Dallas. Investigators said they had discovered a handwritten note. Hopefully, the suspect wrote, this will give ICE agents real terror to think is there a sniper with AP rounds on that roof? AP presumably references the armor piercing bullets. The authorities say that the suspect also compared the work of ICE employees to human trafficking. The board said the Dallas shooting is another reminder to politicians and the press of the need to lower the rhetorical temperature. Americans want vigorous debate on the issues, but opponents of President Trump's deportation policies and ICE raids can criticize them without portraying federal agents as fascist members of a Gestapo. A friend recalled the suspect as passionate about the plight of illegal migrants in a conversation years ago like other recent killers, he wrote a message on his ammunition for law enforcement to find the bordert the public will learn more about the suspect in the investigation to come, but it isn't hard to envision him as a troubled young man, the kind prone to act out seeing warnings about a rising fascism and taking them seriously. It isn't too soon for politicians to quit sending such messages to unstable listeners. In National Review, Jim Garrity called the Dallas shooting another case of left wing violence. Considering how quickly a false narrative that a right wing lunatic had killed Charlie Kirk spread, I wonder if authorities were eager to fill the vacuum with clear facts about the crime and likely motive, garrity said. While everyone has the right to criticize our immigration policies and ICE is not above criticism, you start to wonder whether months and months of calling ICE agents fascist and jackbooted thugs are convincing left wing nutjobs that this really is the time for violent resistance to the US Government. It's not hard to find figures on the left arguing that ICE agents deserve no privacy. I'm not particularly a big fan of federal agents wearing masks as they perform their duties, but it's undeniable that there are people out there who would like to harm ICE agents who thus have a reasonable concern that exposure of their faces might make them easier targets, garrity wrote. Considering how many progressives chose the more pleasant alternative realities where Kirk was killed by an ultra Maga or a white supremacist gang hit, I think we'll see a lot of denial that this perpetrator was doing so in the name of the left as well. In the Deseret News, Norman Hill said another week, another violent act in the aftermath of a horrific scene in Grand Blanc, Michigan, following a gunman ramming his truck into a Latter Day Saint chapel this past Sunday, setting it on fire and shooting at members as they exited the building. People across the country are trying to make sense of an utterly senseless act. No explanation will ever be sufficient, hill wrote. It is not the first time senseless acts of violence have occurred this year in a place of worship. Two children were killed in an attack prior to a back to school Catholic Mass in Minnesota on August 27th. Two women were fatally shot in Lexington, Kentucky at a Baptist church on July 13th. There are plenty of things which reasonable people can disagree on these days, from sports teams to music to politics to religion. But when we cross a fundamental line between expressing differences respectfully and doing so in a way that inflicts harm, physical, emotional or personal, we relinquish both our dignity and our humanity, hill said. Regardless of our differences, we all benefit when we stand up for each other. It preserves our own dignity and protects others dignity. It makes us a community, not merely a group of strangers. All right, let's head over to Audrey for her take.
- [17:16]
Will Kbach
Foreign.
- [17:19]
Mayra Amit
I'm associate editor Audrey Moorhead, and this is my take. When I think about the two targeted shootings perpetrated in the space of a week, I can't help but feel a new sense of despair come over me. As uncomfortable as it is to write, this Sunday's attack during a church service has personally disturbed me more than the attack in Dallas. Attacks on places of worship, whether an African Methodist Episcopalian Bible study, a Shabbat service, a Jamua, a Catholic Mass or a Latter Day Saint sacrament meeting, always hit closer to home. As a Christian, the unity of worship is an essential part of my faith and a peaceful and sacred experience. To hear of that peace being shattered by senseless destruction, especially on a day already marked by mourning in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints after the death of its president, makes me feel the despair of violence all the more intimately, even if I don't share their exact beliefs. I think worship shootings hit me this hard because they feel so much more personal. School shootings, for example, are almost always purely senseless acts carried out by mentally ill people with access to extraordinarily destructive weapons. With neither rhyme nor reason nor ideological motivation. The average school shooter seems to act out of suicidal anger, pure destructive nihilism or a desire for attention and infamy, which is why we don't name shooters in Tangle. But events like the Michigan shooting carried out against a specific religious group are often motivated by different principles. Rather than desiring the destruction of life itself, these shooters envisage themselves as acting righteously against the wrong kind of people or beliefs. In the 2007 Colorado shootings at a youth with a mission training center and New Life Church, a former congregant hoped to kill as many Christians as possible, blaming them for most of the problems in the world. In the 2015 Charleston church shooting, a young white supremacist believed he might ignite a race war by murdering black worshipers. In the 2018 Tree of Life Synagogue shooting, a virulent antisemite and believer of the Great Replacement conspiracy theory wanted to stop the Jews from importing foreigners to replace white people. Based on local reporting, Sunday's shooter may have had similar motivations. He apparently expressed anti LDS sentiment to a local city council candidate, calling Latter Day Saints the Antichrist. The candidate, Chris Johns, said the shooter's view resembled commonplace anti LDS rhetoric on social media, and other friends and acquaintances of the shooter later corroborated this account of his sentiments. We certainly shouldn't discount this possible motive. According to a February Pew Research center study, a quarter of Americans held somewhat or very unfavorable feelings toward Latter Day Saints, and nearly every religious group, including most other Christian groups, feel negatively about them despite their positive reception of other religions as a group. Further reporting has also suggested the shooter was a Trump supporter, but there's no evidence connecting his political leanings to his anti LDS sentiment. At the same time, we must not overrate the importance of the first available evidence, and the shooting at an ICE facility in Dallas shows why. Hours after the ICE shooting, Federal Bureau of Investigation Director Kash Patel posted a picture of one of the bullet casings engraved with anti ice. From this Patel, Vice President J.D. vance and other right wing figures declared that the shooter must have been motivated by left wing ideology. But subsequent reporting cast the ICE shooter's motivations into question. The shooter's online presence doesn't reveal a coherent political ideology or even a strong interest in politics. In interviews, his former friends doubted that he harbored sincere political opinions passionately enough to motivate such an atrocity in the name of ideology. That evidence is pretty convincing to me. I find it extremely plausible that the shooter wasn't motivated as much by political sentiment as by pure nihilism. But even if the ICE shooter wasn't deeply politically motivated, he still chose to commit an overtly political act of violence. Inscribing anti ICE on bullet casings doesn't mean nothing. My fear about the ICE shooter as well as the church shooter is that both of them were motivated by the same nihilism that catalyzes random acts of mass violence like school shootings. But instead of committing a random act of violence, both of these individuals latched onto larger, more abstract identities, the political and the religious, to carry out explicitly targeted acts. And in the wake of their choices to target specific groups of people, the American media and politicians are champing at the bit to assign the blame for these tragedies to their political opponents. The ICE shooter was left wing Like Charlie Kirk's assassin, left wing violence is on the rise. They hate everyone. They want to destroy us. The church shooter was a Trump supporter. He was a hateful bigot. Right wing violence is on the rise. They hate everyone. They want to destroy us. In the short history of American politics, fraught conflicts are often deeply intertwined with religious sentiment. For better and for worse. Prominent thinkers of the American Revolution believed that their freedom from British tyranny was the will of God. Prominent abolitionists believed they were the inheritors of that righteous struggle, as did later civil rights advocates. But religious radicalism has also motivated some of the bloodiest, most sectarian conflicts in our history. The Salem witch trials were fueled by anti Catholicism. Protestant slaveholders and white supremacists justified their actions with twisted biblical teachings. In fact, thinkers like Frederick Douglass viewed the conflict over slavery as a holy war between two competing forms of Christianity, identifying that the American church had abandoned the precepts of the Bible grace, humility, selflessness in favor of ignoring or at worst, directly supporting a political system that benefited them on earth. Of everything that has changed in American society since its founding, the decrease in overall religious sentiment might be the starkest difference. But I firmly believe the sectarianism that informs religious conflicts has not gone away. We still see it in acts of anti religious violence like the church shooting, but increasingly we see it in acts of political violence too. Rather than feeling a particular dedication to a higher deity, many Americans, even those who claim religious identities, dedicate themselves purely to their socio political movements. We approach the political realm with quasi religious fervor and like the antebellum church, we set aside our commitments to higher principles, focusing only on how we can attack our enemies. In some ways I think these shootings are the first acts of violence that cross the Rubicon into a violent borderland filled with the religiously political and nihilistically violent. I worry that at the heart of these shooters actions is a desire for attention and infamy. But they've decided that random mass murder isn't enough to achieve that goal. Instead they want the media to spend days and weeks and even months trying to pick apart their politics. My fear is that the more space we give to these shooters and their motivations, the more we give them exactly what they want and destroy ourselves in the process.
- [24:03]
John Law
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [24:09]
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- [24:39]
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- [25:21]
Will Kbach
Thanks Audrey Jumping back in here to read today's reader question, Anne from Fairfax County, Virginia writes, how did Bill Pulte at the Federal Housing Finance Agency determine that some important government employees had missteps in their mortgage applications? Did his staff sift through old mortgage applications looking for problems? Is that a legal or ethical use of their authority over those records? Here's our response. We don't know exactly how Bill Pulte, the director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency and chairman of Government Sponsored Enterprises Fannie Mae and Freddie Ma, found out about Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook's mortgage applications. The only quote he's given about the discovery is that the papers quote came across our desk at the fhfa. Given that he has also accused Senator Adam Schiff, a Democrat from California, of mortgage fraud and that he oversees the largest lenders on the secondary mortgage market, it's reasonable to question whether Pulte used lender information uniquely available to him through his position, which, yes, would be illegal. However, Pulte did not need to leverage his role at the fhfa, which may not have had any details of Cook's mortgages, as the agency collects data from vendors on the secondary market. The information that backs Pulte's allegation against Cook comes from loan applications that are searchable in the public record. Those records from 2021 showed Cook, a Georgia native and at the time a professor at Michigan State University, listed two homes as her primary residence. Furthermore, since his allegation is undercut by a separate loan estimate from Cook that described her Georgia condo as a vacation home, it appears that Pulte only used this publicly available information to make his allegation. It seems likely that Pulte, who is extremely active on social media, was looking to score points with the Trump administration by raising politically expedient allegations and went to sources that he knew to find dirt mortgage applications. Pulte is not only currently the head of the fhfa, but he was also a very successful builder in the private sector before joining the government, so he's likely quite familiar with how to search and access home records, but that's basically all just informed speculation based on what information is publicly available to us about Pulte. And as we said at the start, we don't know for sure how Cook's records came across his desk. Reminder, if you have a question that you'd like to have answered in the newsletter, you can write in to us and let us know what it is and we will consider it for a future edition. For now, I'm going to pass it back over to John, who'll take us through the rest of the newsletter. Have a great day, everybody.
- [28:05]
John Law
Thanks, Will. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. On Monday, the head of the Russian Parliament's Defense Committee said that any U.S. military specialists who help Ukraine launch Tomahawk missiles at Russia or would be considered military targets. The comments follow reports that the Trump administration is weighing whether to supply the missiles to Ukraine, with Vice President JD Vance confirming on Sunday that the administration is considering the move. Russia has said such an authorization would constitute a major escalation in the conflict as the missiles have the range to reach Moscow. Reuters has this story and there's a link in today's episode Description all right, next up is our numbers section. According to the center for religious liberty, 415 acts of hostility were committed against U.S. churches in 2024. According to Pew Research's 2023-2024 U.S. religious Landscape Study, 2% of U.S. adults identify as Latter Day Saints. 7% of U.S. adults who identify as Latter Day Saints live in the Midwest. According to an August 2025 Pew Research survey, 40% of U.S. adults have a favorable view of Immigration and Customs enforcement over, while 49% have an unfavorable view. 72% of Republicans and 13% of Democrats have a favorable view of ICE. According to a September 2025 Quinnipiac poll, 79% of US voters say that the US is in a political crisis, while 18% say it is not. 83% of US voters think that political leaders are more interested in blaming others, while 10% think that political leaders are interested in finding real solutions to address gun violence. According to a September 2025 YouGov poll, 31% of U.S. adults say that left wing violence is a bigger problem in the US today, and 33% say that right wing violence is a bigger problem in the US Today. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. Brazil faced its worst outbreak of dengue fever last year, with more than 6 million cases and over 6,000 deaths from the tropical mosquito borne disease. Last month, the country kicked off a randomized controlled trial of a new approach, releasing swarms of mosquitoes infected with Wolbachia bacteria, which studies have shown can reduce confirmed dengue cases by up to 77%. Dengue researcher Katie Anders said if successful, the Brazilian trial might push the World Health Organization to recommend the Wolbachia strategy to other countries battling the virus. I think it will open the door to them having confidence and unlock the pathways for policy adoption, anders said. Nature has this story and there's a link in today's episode description all right everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to readtangle.com, where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'. All. Peace. Our Executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Zoell, and our executive producer is John Wall. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will K. Back and Associate Editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead Bailey, Saul Lindsey Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@retangle.com.
- [31:40]
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