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- [00:04]
Unknown Speaker
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- [01:36]
From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle.
- [01:51]
Will Kabeck
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening and welcome to the Tangle podcast, a place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of our take. My name's Will Kabeck, I'm one of Tangle's editors and I'm filling in for Isaac today, so I'll be reading his take and helping John run the show on the pod. Before we jump in, a couple notes. First off, the bad news. We had two corrections in our coverage last week. The first one was in Tuesday's edition on Biden's decision to authorize Ukraine to use long range weapons in Russia. Toward the end of the My Take section, we wrote what we've done instead is create exactly the kind of war of attrition that Russia has built to win, spent exorbitant amounts of money on weapons and allowed a million Ukrainians and Russians to die. Unfortunately, the figure on the million Ukrainians and Russians was one we had pulled from the numbers section of the newsletter, where we correctly noted that 1 million was the number of Ukrainians and Russians killed or wounded in the war. And this was just a dumb error. When we were copying that over, we just neglected to copy or wounded. So that was the first correction. Second, in Thursday's edition on the Matt Gaetz Ethics Report, again in the MITEX section, we mistakenly wrote that former Representative Mark Foley, a Republican from Florida, had become the mayor of Houston after he resigned from Congress. And this was honestly a classic case of getting your wires crossed. In the process of writing about a series of former congressmen who resigned amid ethics scandals, we mixed up Foley and another former Representative, Bill Boehner, Democrat from Tennessee as well as the city in question. So the correct information was that Boehner was the one who retired and then became a mayor, and the city was Nashville, not Houston. So we have found that errors like these tend to come in bunches. So here's hoping that we've got them out of our system and we are about to start a multi month streak with no corrections for visibility. These are our 120th and 121st corrections in Tangle's 277 week history and our first corrections since November 13th. We track these corrections and place them at the top of the newsletter and the podcast in an effort to maximize transparency with readers. Now, on to better things. This is a special week for the whole country. We're headed into Thanksgiving and the Tangle team is going to be off starting Wednesday through next Monday. It has been a long, grueling election season for us and I'm sure for many of you, and we think it'll just be better for our team and probably for you as news consumers to take some time off and focus on your family this week. So we'll have one more normal newsletter and podcast tomorrow and then we'll be taking a few days off this week through Thanksgiving weekend. We're also offering 25% off the first year of a Tangle newsletter subscription, so if any of you listeners are interested in reading, this is the largest discount we ever offer and Tangle membership gets you members only Friday and Sunday Editions A Discount Code for the Premium Podcast if you're not on the Premium podcast already, access to our comments section on the website and a first look at new products. Plus you get to support independent journalism. We'll put a link to that discount code in the episode notes for today. In today's edition, we're going to be talking about the bill introduced by Representative Nancy Mace, a Republican from South Carolina that would require people to use bathrooms corresponding to their biological sex in all federal spaces. This is obviously a contentious and wide ranging topic. So we tried to keep it focused on a few key questions. We'll discuss the questions of safety when it comes to transgender women using women's bathrooms, whether Mesa's bill addresses the issues in any meaningful way, and the political calculations that could be driving this move. Let's jump right in. I'll pass it over to John for quick hits and our main story, and then I'll be back in a bit to read Isaac's take.
- [05:56]
John Law
Thank you, Will, and welcome, everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, former Representative Matt Gaetz withdrew from consideration for attorney general, stating that his nomination had become a distraction for President elect Donald Trump's transition. Shortly after Gates announcement, Trump said he would nominate former Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi for attorney general. Number two, Senator Bob Casey conceded to Dave McCormick in Pennsylvania's Senate race. After the concession, Pennsylvania Secretary of the Commonwealth announced the state was stopping its recount at Casey's request. Number three, President elect Trump made his final picks for his cabinet advisors requiring Senate confirmation, announcing investor Scott Besant as his nominee for treasury secretary. Additionally, Trump chose Brooke Rollins, head of the America First Policy Institute for agriculture secretary. Trump also nominated former Texas lawmaker Scott Turner for Housing and Urban Development secretary. And finally, Trump selected outgoing Representative Lori Chavez de Remer for labor secretary. Number four, Judge Juan Merchan indefinitely postponed President elect Trump's sentencing for his conviction in the hush money case in New York. Merchan set a Dec. 2 deadline for Trump's lawyers to file a motion seeking to dismiss the case outright. And number five, Israel carried out an airstrike on a building in Beirut, reportedly targeting top Hezbollah commander Mohammed Haydar. The strike killed at least 29 people, according to Lebanon's Health Ministry. Separately, Hezbollah fired an estimated 250 rockets and other projectiles into Israel, with some rocke reaching the Tel Aviv area. Seven people were wounded in one of the militant group's heaviest barrages in months.
- [07:41]
Unknown Speaker
No, I'm not going to allow men to erase women or women's rights. And I'm going to be standing up here. I will file this again next congressional session. Sarah McBride doesn't get a say. This is about women. This is about girls. This is about our rights and being protected in our private spaces. I don't want to see a man in a women's restroom. That's not a thing. And it's not going to be a thing up here. It's not going to be a thing anywhere across the country either. Thank you so much. Joining me now, we have the outgoing Democratic congresswoman from California Barbara Lee and a good friend to us. So my question to you, first off is what is driving your colleague Congresswoman Mace, who we should note previously has said she supported LGBTQ rights to lead this charge. Well, nice being with you, Alex. It looks like she's being driven by money and popularity and trying to send.
- [08:29]
A message out that's disgusting and this dangerous.
- [08:33]
John Law
Last Monday, Representative Nancy Mace, the Republican from South Carolina, introduced a resolution requiring members, officers and employees of the House of Representatives to use bathrooms corresponding to their biological sex at the Capitol and in House office buildings. Then on Wednesday, Mace released the text of a bill that would establish the same rule for all individuals in federal buildings. Mase said she introduced the bill in response to Sarah McBride's election to the House. McBride, the Democrat from Delaware, is the first transgender person elected to Congress. A note that you can read our editorial Standards for Trans Issues and Pronoun use with a link in today's episode Description Shortly after Mase unveiled her bill, House Speaker Mike Johnson announced new policies for facilities in the Capitol. All single sex facilities in the Capitol and House office buildings such as restrooms, changing rooms and locker rooms are reserved for individuals of that biological sex, johnson said in a statement. In response to the policy, McBride said she would follow the rules as outlined by Speaker Johnson even if I disagreed with them, adding, I'm not here to fight about bathrooms. I'm here to fight for Delawareans and bring down costs facing families. Mace said the issue was a question of women's rights and safety. I'm a victim of abuse myself, I'm a rape survivor, she said. I have PTSD from the abuse I've suffered at the hands of a man and I know how vulnerable women and girls are in private spaces. So I'm absolutely 100% going to stand in the way of any man who wants to be in a women's restroom, in our locker rooms and in our changing rooms. After initially saying that he would not engage in silly debates about the issue, Johnson made a follow up statement affirming his belief that a man is a man and a woman is a woman and a man cannot be a woman. He added, I also believe that we treat everybody with dignity and so we can do and believe all those things. At the same time, most House Democrats have expressed support for McBride and criticized Mace's effort as unproductive and cruel. House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries called the bill a blatant attempt by Republicans to distract from the fact that they have no real solutions to what Americans are facing. Additionally, Mesa's former communications director Natalie Johnson suggested the bill was a ploy for media attention. Today we'll explore perspectives from the right and the left on Mace's bill and transgender issues in the US and then Isaac's take.
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Unknown Speaker
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [11:02]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [11:27]
Unknown Speaker
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- [11:33]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Is Farnoosh Tarabi, host of the Webby winning podcast so Money. If you're aiming for a goal, be it saving for a house, growing your family or retiring life makes it difficult to stay the course. But with a dedicated Merrill advisor, you plan and a clear path forward. Having the bull at your back helps your whole financial life move with you. So when your plans change, Merrill's with you every step of the way. Go to ML.combullish to learn more. Merrill, a Bank of America company what would you like the power to do? Investing involves risk Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith Incorporated Registered Broker Dealer Registered Investment Advisor Member.
- [12:19]
John Law
All right, first up, let's start with what the right is saying. The right mostly backs Mace's bill, framing it as common sense policy that should be the norm in the U.S. some argue the debate over trans women and bathrooms is a sign of America's cultural decline. Others question whether Mesa's bill addresses a real issue. In the Washington Examiner, Kimberly Ross wrote, yes, keep men out of women's spaces. In Congress and everywhere else, it's reasonable to assume that Mesa's actions are partly political theater. Her social media posts about the issue include a video of the representative placing the word biological above the women's sign outside a Capitol Hill restroom, and other quips such as does the left ever get tired of being weird? But the South Carolina representative is a survivor of rape, domestic violence and abuse. This is personal, ross said. It should go without saying that biological men don't belong in bathrooms, locker rooms, changing rooms, or similar spaces with biological women. But such a reasonable declaration is met with claims of bigotry in 2024, you're not standing up for the rights of women and girls. You're actively engaging in hate. According to far too many LGBT activists who wish to co opt traditional areas reserved for girls and women, the reaction is such that those demanding basic decency, protection and continuation of what has been in place for decades are treated as ill tempered radicals, ross wrote. The issue of transgender Americans in bathrooms or similar facilities isn't the most pressing issue of our time, but it does deserve attention when women and girls are increasingly pushed aside and dismissed by Democrats and Republicans alike for speaking up. It's an issue of right and wrong. It's also a safety issue. We deserve to feel protected from potential predators. In Blaze media, Delano Squires said the attacks on Mace's stance underscore our ongoing descent into madness. Some of the most outspoken women in our culture on abortion rights, pay equity, climate change and politics are now scared to speak about the very thing they have built their identity womanhood. They spent decades trying to smash the patriarchy only to submit to the men leading the they triarchy, squires wrote. The party that spent the last few months saying it would defend women is unwilling to define a woman publicly. The feminist movement has laid down its sword, raised the white flag of surrender and bowed in submission to the handful of impossible women who are society's last oppressed group. Only time will tell whether Republicans will develop the spine to see this battle all the way through. House Speaker Mike Johnson tried to dodge a direct question about McBride's sex at a press conference before affirming the sex binary in a follow up statement. Getting Jimmy off of Jane's field hockey team is one thing, but forcing girls to refer to hulking teenage boys as she and her is a sign. The roots of this twisted ideology are still firmly in place, squire said. It's impossible to rebuild American families if we live in a society where people are confused about which sex has the babies. In msnbc, Brad Palumbo explored Mace's path from LGBTQ ally to anti trans culture warrior. I for one, am surprised to see Mace launching this culture war crusade because when I interviewed her in 2021, shortly after she took office, she framed herself as a pro LGBT social moderate. Times have changed and evidently Mace has too, palumbo wrote. To be fair, the congresswoman hasn't entirely abandoned support for LGBT rights, as she broke with the majority of the Republican Party in 2022 to support the Respect for Marriage act, which enshrined same sex marriage protections into federal law. Still, the stance she takes now seems entirely devoid of the kind of nuance and empathy Mase originally branded herself around. Protecting women and girls is not what Mace is actually doing, and it's not just the radical left that disagrees with her stand. Many moderate right of center Americans like myself also find her grandstanding disappointing because there's no actual safety issue being addressed here, palumbo said. Assaults by transgender women in women's bathrooms are incredibly, incredibly rare, and there is zero reason to specifically believe that McBride is going to assault anyone in a restroom. This entire crusade is a solution in search of a problem. Whether Mase realizes it or not. She has likely shared the women's bathroom with transgender women who work for Democratic members of Congress many times without any issue. All right, that is it for what the right is saying. Which brings us to what the left is saying. The left is critical of Mace's bill. While praising McBride for her response to it, some suggest Mase is primarily driven by a desire to amplify her national profile. Others say the controversy creates an opportunity for Democrats to reframe the narrative about trans issues. In Bloomberg, Nia Malika Henderson wrote, Sarah McBride knows how to handle the GOP's anti trans bullies. The GOP, full of fear mongering and scapegoating, has shown who it is on this issue. But transgender Americans don't represent some existential threat to the social order. Proposals like bathroom bills only serve to create us versus Them divisions that Democrats would do well to ignore, instead positioning themselves as the party of all Americans, no matter their identity, Henderson said. McBride issued a remarkably restrained response, shunning the fight with her new colleagues and providing something of a model for how Democrats can engage. President Elect Trump has made it clear that he plans to make life for transgender Americans even more difficult. The GOP party platform vowed to keep men out of women's spaces as one of the 20 promises of their legislative and governing agenda, henderson wrote. Democrats shouldn't abandon their commitment to transgender rights out of political expediency. To do so would be to undermine the party's commitment to a country where identity doesn't determine destiny and opportunity. In the Washington Post, Philip Bump said Nancy Mace finally mastered the right wing media universe. After Mace was first elected in 2020, she positioned herself as a champion of LGBTQ issues. But that was in early 2021, when there was space in the national conversation for an ambitious freshman Republican to extend grace to a marginalized community that was generally more sympathetic to politicians from the other party. Bump wrot over the course of 2021, though with President Joe Biden in the White House, the Republican narrative shifted more forcefully against efforts to build a more inclusive country. By 2024, the Republican base had been fed a steady diet of anti trans rhetoric, making trans issues fertile ground for anyone willing to be engaged in the fight. Mace was willing. The fervor and hostility of Mace's rhetoric has increased over the course of the week, alongside the uptick of frequency in her media appearances. If it was a ploy, it worked. What's more, it worked because Mace has mastered the approach that worked so well for Trump, framing an attack as a defense, Bum said the issue appears to have resolved at this point, with Mace able to claim victory. But the victory isn't only in forcing McBride to walk farther to use the bathroom. It's also in cracking the code to become the person carrying the banner for the right in the never ending culture wars. In her errand in the morning newsletter, Aaron Reid argued, republican bathroom panic over McBride shows it was never about sports or kids the reaction to Representative McBride makes one thing crystal clear to Democrats and pundits alike. The Republican Party's debate over transgender Americans was never about sports or prison inmates. Time and again, when given an inch, they take everything. That they've already pivoted to bathrooms before Congress has even convened should speak volumes. And the fact that the first transgender person they've targeted nationally is a mild mannered Democratic congresswoman representing a million Delawareans speaks even louder, Reid wrote. If Representative McBride, a woman who championed and passed paid family leave for mothers on the brink of poverty is deemed unsafe for women, then what transgender person could ever be considered safe? The truth is, the far right cannot resist targeting transgender people when they dare to step into positions of power. The mere presence of a transgender person as an equal is almost too much for them to bear, driving them to indulge their cruelest impulses, reid said. Democrats have a golden chance to reframe the narrative on transgender rights. Democrats must seize this moment to stand firm, contrasting their focus on jobs, infrastructure and middle class support with a Republican Party consumed by cruelty that does nothing to improve people's lives. All right, let's head over to Will for Isaac's take.
- [20:56]
Will Kabeck
All right, that is it for what the right and left are saying. Which brings us to my take reminder. My name's Will. I'm one of Tangle's editors filling in for Isaac today on the pod, so I'll be reading his thoughts in the take in the first person. So much baggage is attached to debates about trans issues that writing Anything productive requires narrowing the focus. For starters, this story is clearly about trans women, not trans men, as I haven't seen too many people concerned about trans men using the men's restroom. That starting point can help to clarify a few useful questions. Number one, are trans women actually a threat in women's spaces like bathrooms? Number two, is this bill a productive way to address potential safety issues for women in public facilities? And number three, does Representative Nancy May strike earnestly hold these views, or is this more political opportunism? Answering the first question about the threat trans women pose empirically, especially in women's spaces, is difficult, and not just because trans women are a small part of the population. Reliable estimates put the number of all trans people above the age of 13 at about 1.6 million in the U.S. but this is difficult also because transgender means different things to different people. Are we talking about self assigned pronouns of teenagers or medically transitioned adults, or is the dividing line somewhere else on the spectrum? Still, the peer reviewed studies that have been published about this issue show that permissive bathroom laws do not increase incidence of assault or harassment, and further suggest that trans people are more often victims of harassment in spaces like bathrooms than the perpetrators of it. Conversely, laws restricting this access often end up making trans people less safe without improving the safety of the people they intend to protect. Which, to be frank, makes sense. Many trans people are not obviously trans, which means keeping them out of a bathroom they appear to belong in has the unintended effect of putting them in spaces where it very much appears they don't belong. In the newsletter, we have a screenshot from a tweet that shows a trans man very identifiably looking like a man and a trans woman very obviously looking like a woman. Comparing the two and the tweet says, look, I genuinely don't care who is in the bathroom with me, but the law you're proposing says the person on the left, the trans man, should use the women's bathroom and the person on the right, the trans woman, should use the men's bathroom. On the left is Buck Angel, a trans man who Isaac interviewed last year for our piece on the dangers of pornography. And on the right is newly elected representative McBride. I would not feel comfortable with McBride in the locker room with me, and though I'm not a woman, I suspect many women wouldn't feel comfortable if they saw Buck stride into the women's bathroom. However, it's not all cut and dried. Men commit more crime than women, and some studies have shown that a male pattern of criminality still applies to trans women who were born male after transitioning genders. That applies to violent crime rates too. And there are many cases of attacks or harassment in women's spaces by trans women, so it's not as if there's zero reason to have any concern. Further, even if trans women don't pose any elevated threat themselves, it isn't hard to find clear eyed and convincing arguments for maintaining biological female only spaces. Regardless, my own views aren't cut and dried either. On the one hand, I think the progressive trans movement has moved so far that it's trying to defend an untenable position that all you have to do to gain access to a protected space is claim a protected identity for yourself. Imagine a situation where someone clearly identifiable as a biological male, someone who is known to family and friends and identifiable that way to the public, declares one day that they are transitioning to female. Nobody could reasonably expect all girls and women to suddenly be comfortable with that person showing up in their bathroom or locker room just a few days later. And yet, this isn't how transitioning always or even often works. To take the example at hand, Representative Sarah McBride is 34 years old. She was her student body president at American University and College, and in her final week in that role, she came out as trans. In the school newspaper, she described how she wrestled with her gender identity, writing that being trans was her deepest secret and something that she couldn't accept, thinking she had to pick a pursuit of politics over being trans and couldn't possibly do both together. That was over 12 years ago, and now she is an openly trans woman who was elected to Congress. Regardless of your views on this issue, we should all be able to respect someone like McBride's lifestyle. She's not a confused teenager. She's not someone attaching themselves to an identity for personal gain or to be a predator or on a whim. She is an adult, exercising her freedom to live as the person that brings her happiness without harming anyone around her. What is so frustrating for me is that both sides seem to be attached to some fantasy world that cannot and will not exist. Many on the right seem to think they can just legislate trans people away, pretending that by excluding them they will somehow cease to exist. They won't. Whether they exist because of gender dysphoria or ambiguous sex organs or social contagion is, for the purposes of legislation like this, irrelevant. We should strive to create free societies for all. That's the benefit of living in a pluralistic country. At the same time, Many on the left seem to think they can use academic theory to set the definitions of common words without hearing concerns about comfort levels, fairness, and perceived or actual safety. This too is entirely unrealistic. My first thought on reading this story was that it all just felt a little off. In the past, Mesa has described herself quite differently than the person she's acting like today. She said to the Washington Examiner In 2021, I strongly support LGBTQ rights inequality. No one should be discriminated against. I have friends and family that identify as lgbtq. Understanding how they feel and how they've been treated is important. Having been around gay, lesbian and transgender people has informed my opinion over my lifetime. Going from that to no balls in our stalls should raise some eyebrows. And while it's true that Mace has opposed pretty much every piece of LGBTQ legislation proposed in Congress for the last few years, you can't ignore the political factors that are obviously at play. Anti trans ads were very successful for Trump, and many swing voters turned on Kamala Harris because they thought she cared more about trans issues than their issues. Mace seems to be reading that as a cue to go on offense. My read of the room is that Americans just want to hear less about this issue from the extremes, not more. To that end, I think Mace might be coming off more cruel than anything else, and I'm not sure how much broad interest there is for a fight like this. I genuinely think someone like McBride should be able to use women's bathrooms in the halls of Congress. Yet I can also hold that this doesn't mean all self identified trans women are entitled to all women's spaces. I wish more people could hold these things at the same time too. But alas, it doesn't appear to be the country that we have. All right, that is it for today's My Take section. We're not doing a reader question today to give our main story some extra space, so I'll send it back to John for the rest of the podcast and we'll see you all tomorrow. Thanks.
- [28:31]
Unknown Speaker
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [28:37]
J
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- [29:09]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Host of the Webby winning podcast so Money. If you're aiming for a goal, be it saving for a house, growing your family or retiring life makes it difficult to stay the course. But with a dedicated Merrill advisor, you get a personalized plan and a clear path forward. Having the bull at your back helps your whole financial life move with you. So when your plans change, Merrill's with you every step of the way. Go to ML.combullish to learn more. Merrill, a Bank of America company what would you like the power to do? Investing Involves Risk Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith Inc. Registered Broker Dealer Registered Investment Advisor Member SIPC.
- [29:55]
John Law
Thanks Will here's your under the Radar story for today folks. A sizable majority of Americans approve of President elect Donald Trump's handling of his presidential transition process. So far, according to a new CBS News YouGov poll, 59% of U.S. adults say they approve of the transition, while 55% say they feel happy or satisfied about electoral victory. Additionally, many of Trump's Cabinet nominees have garnered support among Americans who are familiar with the picks. A net plus 19% thinks Senator Marco Rubio, the Republican from Florida, was a good choice for secretary of state plus 13% think Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Was a good pick for HHS secretary plus 9% think Tulsi Gabbard was a good pick for Director of national intelligence and plus 5% think Pete Hegseth was a good pick for Secretary of Defense. While several of Trump's nominees have prompted criticism from Democrats, the media, and even some Republicans, the poll's findings suggest Americans are broadly supportive of Trump's initial decisions in his presidential transition. CBS News has this story and there's a link in today's episode Description all right, next up is our numbers section. The approximate number of transgender adults living in the United States is 3 million, roughly 1.14% of the population, according to the latest U.S. census Bureau Household Pulse Survey. The number of U.S. states that require people to use bathrooms and other facilities that correspond to their biological sex in all government owned buildings and spaces is 2. The estimated percentage of transgender people in the U.S. who live in one of these two states is 8%. The number of states, as well as five territories and Washington, D.C. with no laws affecting transgender people's use of bathrooms or facilities in government spaces is 37. The estimated percentage of transgender people in the US who live in one of these states or territories is 81%. The percentage of US adults who support laws to protect transgender people from discrimination in housing, jobs and public spaces is 64%, according to a 2022 Pew Research survey. The percentage of U.S. adults who support laws requiring transgender individuals to use public bathrooms that correspond to their sex assigned at birth is 41%, and the percentage of U.S. adults who oppose laws requiring transgender individuals to use public bathrooms that correspond to their sex assigned at birth is 31%. And last but not least, our have a nice day story Space Coast High School in Florida had a struggling football team. The Vipers had gone 18 in 2023 and this year lacked the funds and equipment to play at all. But when Baker Mayfield, the quarterback for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, learned about their struggles, he stepped in to help. Together, Mayfield and his wife, Emily, donated $17,900 that the team needed for their season. In the end, The Vipers went 103 and won their state championship. Sports Illustrated has this story and there's a link in today's episode description all right everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to readtangle.com and sign up for a membership. You can also go to tanglemedia.supercast.com and sign up for a premium podcast membership, which includes ad free daily podcasts, Friday editions, Sunday editions, interviews, bonus content and so much more. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac, Will and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace.
- [33:25]
Unknown Speaker
Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Dean Thomas. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Will Kabak Daily, Saul and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was made by Magdalena Bokova, who was also our social media manager. The music for the podcast was produced by Diet75 and if you're looking for more from Tangle, please go check out our website@readtangle.com that's readtangle.com.
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