John Law (4:38)

Thanks, Isaac, and welcome everybody. Hope you had some beautiful and joyful moments this weekend. And whether you had a few or a lot, let's take that energy and carry it with us through the week. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, Israel blocked all humanitarian aid from entering Gaza as it demands Hamas agree to an extension of its ceasefire agreement, whose first phase expired on Saturday. Separately, Egypt said officials from Israel, Qatar and the United States met in Cairo to begin negotiations over the second phase of the ceasefire. Number two, a federal judge found that the Trump administration's attempt to remove the head of a federal watchdog agency was unlawful, likely sending the case to the Supreme Court. Separately, the Trump administration fired hundreds of national oceanic and Atmospheric Administration employees who were on probationary status, including weather forecasters at the National Weather Service. Number three President Trump signed an executive order making English the official language of the United States, revoking a previous executive order that required federal agencies and recipients of federal funding to provide language assistance to non English speakers.4 the personal consumption expenditures price index, the Federal Reserve's preferred inflation measure, rose 2.5% in January on an annual basis, in line with economists expectations. And number five, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth directed the U.S. cyber Command to halt offensive operations against Russia as part of a broader effort to reevaluate its strategies. Separately, Hegseth Approved orders for 2,500 to 3,000 U.S. troops to be deployed to the southern border to support immigration control efforts.

Isaac Saul (6:32)

We begin tonight here with the shocking.

John Law (6:33)

And unprecedented blow up in the Oval.

Isaac Saul (6:35)

Office, something we have not seen before. President Trump and Ukraine's President Zelensky, the meeting descending into an extraordinary clash The US has been Ukraine's most important ally after Russia invaded three years ago, but today that relationship looked very different as.

John Law (6:49)

It all played out on television in front of the world. On Friday, US President Donald Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy met at the White House to conduct final negotiations over a mineral rights deal. During an Oval Office discussion open to the press, Trump, Zelenskyy and Vice President J.D. vance discussed the future of the Ukraine Russia war. Toward the end of the meeting, however, Vance and Zelenskyy clashed over how the administration might navigate Russia's President Vladimir Putin. After the meeting, Zelenskyy left the White House without signing the mineral rights agreement. For context, the deal reportedly would have established a fund to give The United States 50% of revenues from future monetization of all relevant Ukrainian government owned natural resource assets. The Trump administration framed the deal and did not include explicit security guarantees for Ukraine as a critical step toward a ceasefire in the war. The majority of the roughly hour long meeting was cordial, with Trump and Zelensky taking questions from the press and discussing their outlook on the war. About 40 minutes in, Vice President Vance criticized President Joe Biden's management of the conflict, arguing that U.S. diplomacy will be necessary to end the war. President Zelensky responded by noting Russian President Vladimir Putin's history of reneging on agreements, asking Vance what diplomacy could be possible without security guarantees. From there, Vance called Zelensky disrespectful for trying to litigate this in front of the American media, adding that he should be grateful for President Trump's peace seeking efforts. For the ensuing 10 minutes, the three leaders engaged in a contentious dialogue with Trump, telling Zelensky, you're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War Three. Trump also said that Putin went through a hell of a lot with me, referencing the investigations into the 2016 campaign's alleged collusion with Russia. The press were escorted out of the room shortly after Zelensky and the Ukrainian delegation departed the White House at President Trump's request. After the meeting, President Trump said, I have determined that President Zelensky is not ready for peace if America is involved because he feels our involvement gives him a big advantage in negotiations. He disrespected the United States of America in its cherished Oval Office. He can come back when he is ready for peace. On Friday evening, Zelensky expressed his thanks to President Trump, Congress for their bipartisan support and the American people, adding, it's crucial for us to have President Trump's support. He wants to end the war, but no one wants peace more than we do. Republican lawmakers have rallied behind Trump, including many staunch supporters of Ukraine. Senator Lindsey Graham said that Zelenskyy will have to fundamentally change or go. Democrats expressed shock and dismay at Trump's handling of the meeting with House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, saying it will only serve to further embolden Vladimir Putin. On Sunday, British Prime Minister Keir Starmer said that the United Kingdom and France would work with Ukraine on a peace plan that they would present to the United States. A group of world leaders also met in the UK on Sunday to rally support for Ukraine, discuss the future of the war, and weigh plans for increased defense spending in Europe. Today we'll share arguments from the right and the left about the meeting and then Isaac's take.

Isaac Saul (10:18)

We'll be right back after this quick break.

Isaac Saul (10:23)

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Marc Maron (10:54)

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John Law (11:17)

Catch up on the latest episodes without the ads. All right, first up, let's start with what the Right is saying. The Right is mixed in its response, though many criticize Zelenskyy's conduct, some expressed skepticism at the Trump administration's positioning towards Ukraine and Europe. Others say Zelenskyy must apologize in order to reset relations with the US In Fox News, Victoria Coats wrote, ukraine Zelenskyy thought he'd look like a tough guy. He had another thing coming from Trump and Vance. President Zelensky came to Washington this week thinking he would receive the same unquestioning adulation as and blank check he had gotten on visits during the Biden Harris administration. In the Oval Office press engagement, Zelenskyy seemed condescending to America's commander in chief and entitled to his unquestioning support and deference. This was a mistake, coats said. Instead of keeping any disagreements behind closed doors, he seriously misread President Trump and Vice President Vance, blew the mineral rights deal for the Ukrainian people and did serious reputational damage to himself in front of the American people. Rather than offering a simple thank you, he showed up with a chip on his shoulder and additional demands. Zelenskyy may have thought that the fight he picked would make him look like a tough guy, but in fact such disrespect is not going to endear him to the taxpayers who have committed hundreds of billions of their hard earned dollars into his country and who voted for Donald Trump. National Review's editors called the meeting an ugly Oval Office spatial. President Trump issued a statement after the unpleasantries saying that Zelenskyy is not interested in peace, although surely he would have been perfectly content to not have his country invaded by Russia twice. What Zelenskyy and the Ukrainians want is guarantees that any deal won't result in renewed Russian aggression down the road, with Ukraine even harder pressed to defend itself, the editors wrote. This is not only an understandable concern, but one that it is in our interest to address, since further Russian adventurism would be costly in human terms and dangerous to the West. All this said knowing Trump's ego Advance's hostility in advance. It was a diplomatic failure on Zelenskyy's part to get sucked into making argumentative points. The upside of critiquing Trump advance in public was nil, while the potential downside, which unfortunately Zelenskyy is now experiencing, was enormous, the editor said. One hopes that this doesn't represent a fundamental breach in US Ukrainian relations with President Trump. Blowups can happen quickly, but so can reconciliations, the New York Post editorial board said. Zelenskyy must get peace back on track and Trump needs to accept the abject apology. Friday's Oval Office blow up does no one any good, maybe not even Vladimir Putin. It's up to first Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelenskyy and then President Trump to get the peace plan back on track. Zelenskyy must swallow his pride, apologize, say he's grateful for the American people and Trump's desire to end the slaughter, then say it again and again, as many times as necessary, the board wrote. Trump needs to accept the apology and get the minerals deal signed, then proceed to foster a Kyiv Moscow accord that serves both sides interests going forward. At this point, the only real winner if the Ukraine war continues is is China's Xi Jinping, who gets to have Russia grow even more dependent on him while the west burns resources holding off the Kremlin's forces. By the way, U.S. democrats and European leaders have a duty here too. Shut up, the board said. You don't need to like someone to make a deal that not only goes for Putin and Zelensky, but for Trump and Zelensky. You do what's best for your country, not your personal pride. Get it done, gentlemen. Alright, that is it for what the right is saying. Which brings us to what the left is saying. The left criticizes Trump and Vance's handling of the meeting, arguing the episode only served Putin's interests. Some say Zelensky bears some blame for the outcome and urge him to try to salvage the relationship with Trump. Others say Trump's conduct humiliated the United States. In Bloomberg, Andreas Kluth called the meeting a win for Putin. Trump and Vance berated the leader of a nation that's been fighting for its existence for three years. Have you said thank you once Vance asks Zelenskyy. In fact, Zelenskyy has thanked the US as well as Trump scores of times since Russian President Vladimir Putin launched his war of aggression against Ukraine, kluth wrote. Trump's humiliation of Zelenskyy didn't just start today, it began two weeks ago when Trump called Putin and arranged for bilateral talks between the US And Russia. The winner of this clash, as in all of Trump's catastrophic missteps of the last month, is Putin. If the west had stayed united and back in Kyiv, Russia would not have been in a strong position when peace negotiations started. Its economy is in dire straits and victory on the battlefield remains elusive. But with Trump essentially deflecting from the west and siding with Moscow, Putin has an opening, kluth said. Gone is any notion that America still stands for the sovereignty of nations such as Ukraine, for international rules and norms, for the rights of victims of aggression to defend themselves. In the Washington Post, David Ignatius wrote, zelenskyy doesn't hold the cards, but he can still make a deal. Trump, bizarrely, seems to want to rescue Moscow from its mistakes. On Friday, he expressed an eerie kinship with Putin as a fellow victim of the investigation of Russian interference in the 20 presidential campaign. Ignatius said Friday's fracas wasn't all Trump's fault. To be fair, Zelenskyy's pugnacity, which served him so brilliantly in his first days after Russia's 2022 invasion, was his enemy here. Trump had been a fairly congenial host and said one last question to the assembled press corps when Zelenskyy launched into a recitation of Putin's perfidy, this was like waving a red flag at a bull. Zelensky should have studied the theatrical performance of British Prime Minister Keir Starmer, who had masterfully flattered Trump the day before. Starmer's reward was that Trump said out loud that he supported NATO's cornerstone. Article five, Ignatius wrote, Trump doesn't like Zelenskyy, but he does want to conclude a Ukraine deal. His last word in a social media post after the Oval Office crackup was that Zelensky can come back when he is ready for peace. Zelensky resents Trump's bullying, but he too needs the deal. In the Daily Beast, David Rothkopf said Trump thinks he humiliated Zelensky. He really humiliated the United States. The new US Administration has clearly embraced what might be called a mob boss foreign policy because of the criminal pasts of the men who are leading it and because of the tactics they appear to favor, rothkopf wrote. When Zelenskyy failed to fall to his knees and kiss the hem of Trump's garments in Thanksgiving, both Trump and Vance began to try to bully Zelenskyy in the most thuggish and repulsive way imaginable. It achieved precisely the goal that Putin and Trump had long sought to produce a public break between the United States and Ukraine. Zelenskyy was knockowed by the two big goons who confronted him at the same time. While the meeting went off the rails. And Trump undoubtedly felt he had done well for his audience in Red Square, Zelenskyy made it clear how much the world had changed since Trump has taken office. Rothkop wrote. Trump thinks he humiliated Zelenskyy. He did not. He humiliated the United States of America. In addition, he put us all at greater risk of further conflict in Europe by encouraging Putin mob boss Foreign policy will not work. It has not worked for Putin, whose violent forays have proved a disaster for the Russian military, the Russian economy, and for Russia's international standing. Alright, let's head over to Isaac for his take.

Isaac Saul (19:34)

All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. So there's something interesting about the coverage here that I've noticed, which is most pundits are reacting to the final few minutes of this meeting, which obviously, you know, clearly was the most important. But I'd like to quickly recap a few things that happened before the now infamous blowup, because I think to really grasp how shocking the end of the meeting was, you have to watch the entire thing from start to finish, which I've done twice now, and both times I got a lot out of it. First of all, President Trump began this entire sit down by complimenting the bravery and courage of Ukraine's soldiers and of President Zelensky. He repeatedly committed to providing Ukraine with arms into the future. He even suggested we could, quote, unquote, conceivably commit U.S. troops on the ground in Ukraine alongside European troops, though that got almost zero press coverage because of what happened later. He referenced the long standing relationship between the two men. It's kind of memory hold now, but don't forget, Trump literally got impeached for attempting to pressure Zelensky into opening an investigation into the Biden family. These guys go pretty far back. Trump also repeatedly suggested the mineral rights deal would be signed that day and that a deal committing US Workers to mine mineral resources would ensure Ukraine's safety. He even said the US Would consider how to handle the Russian troops in occupied Ukrainian territory where some of the minerals are located. Russia is claiming the territory and also trying to leverage those minerals in a deal with the U.S. trump, unsurprisingly, also walked a line in the middle, painting Putin and Zelenskyy as two people who deeply dislike each other, rather than an aggressor and a victim. Trump also defended this tactic, making the argument that being nice to Putin was key to getting a deal on net, though it was a pretty warm reception for Zelensky and most importantly, Trump suggested several commitments for Ukraine. Still, through it all, there was some underlying tension. Both Zelenskyy and Trump endured some light prodding from each other and the reporters who were present. Brian Glenn, the conservative activist and boyfriend of Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, the Republican from Georgia who now poses as a reporter in the Oval Office, asked Zelenskyy if he owned a suit and why he wasn't wearing one. Zelensky didn't take the bait, only joking back that maybe one day he'll have a suit nicer than Glenn's. Trump patted Zelensky's back and told him he liked his outfit. Earlier that day, Trump too had made a joke about what Zelenskyy was wearing. A few minutes later, as Zelensky was thanking European allies for giving a lot to Ukraine, Trump interrupted him to claim the US has given more. Zelensky, in a joking tone, corrected him. The two sparred while laughing uncomfortably. For a moment, though, their underlying dispute was real. Zelenskyy, for what it's worth, is correct. And then they both moved on again. Another moment worth watching. A couple of times Zelenskyy interrupted Trump to make a point, like when Trump said Ukrainian cities have been destroyed and Zelenskyy said Trump needed to come to see how the Ukrainian people were enduring and carrying on again. The meeting carried some tension, maybe more than a typical meeting like this, but it really was quite conciliatory. And then it happened. Vance, asking to speak, said that President Biden talked tough on Putin before Putin invaded Ukraine and destroyed a large portion of the country. Which hey, points for explaining events as they actually happened. And then Vance said this the path to peace is maybe engaging in diplomacy. Zelensky perhaps seeing a moment to make a point, then politely ask permission to ask a question to Vance. Up to this point, it was mostly Zelenskyy and Trump talking with each other and reporters. Zelenskyy's English is a little rough sometimes, but I'm gonna just share a transcript that's kind of a cleaned up version of what he said of his question to Vance, which came to us courtesy of foreign policy.com He Putin occupied various parts of Ukraine in 2014. During that time it was President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, and now it's President Trump and he will stop him referring to Putin. But during 2014 nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took. He killed people. From 2014 till 2022, the situation was the same. People have been dying on the contact line and nobody stopped him. Zelenskyy said. We had a lot of conversations with him, including a bilateral conversation. As a new president in 2019, I signed with him a ceasefire deal alongside Macron and Merkel. All of them told me that he will never go. We also signed a gas contract with him, but after all that, he broke the ceasefire, he killed our people, and he didn't exchange prisoners. We signed the exchange of prisoners, but he didn't do it. What kind of diplomacy, jd, are you speaking about? What do you mean? And that was it. That was what set Vance off, who responded by arguing that it was disrespectful for Zelenskyy to litigate this in front of the US media while forcing conscripts in Ukraine to the front lines and demanding that Zelensky say thank you to the President for trying to bring an end to the conflict. Zelensky, now clearly running hot, suggested the US has trouble recruiting soldiers in time of war too, which is true, and then asked Vance what he could know about Ukraine when he's never even visited. This, by the way, was news to me, but apparently is true and not something the vice President denied. Vance said he's watched and seen the stories and that visits to Ukraine are just propaganda tours. And with that, we were off the rails. By the time it was all said and done, Trump was yelling that Zelenskyy didn't have the cards, interjecting about Hunter Biden's bathroom and the Russia hoax, and suggesting Zelenskyy was acting like a tough guy only because of Trump's help. To state the obvious, Zelenskyy's crime, his catastrophically offensive move, was pointing out the reality that Putin broke a ceasefire in 2014 and many others since, and that it is actually not easy to just do diplomacy with a despotic authoritarian hell bent on turning 40 million free Ukrainians into his subjects. I cannot imagine how infuriating it must have been to be in Zelenskyy's shoes, listening to Vance smugly suggest this idea. It is novel, as if it hasn't been tried, as if Biden and Zelenskyy are idiots for never trying to just talk to Putin. Zelenskyy did sign ceasefire deals born of diplomacy with Putin, and he got invaded for it. Thousands dead, millions displaced, and, yes, many cities destroyed. It's a miracle Zelenskyy is even alive. Vance, who in this same meeting had just been cheering on the virtues of free speech, was apparently so incensed that Zelenskyy would use this moment to ask a pointed question or to litigate the issue in front of the press as that the entire meeting came crashing down. Litigating the issue, it should be said, is part of Zelenskyy's job. Ukraine's president knows his country is in dire need of help. He came to Washington hoping to finalize a deal exchanging Ukrainian natural resources for US Military support. But he saw a chance to speak directly to the US People, too. Let me also be very clear about this. Zelenskyy screwed up. Just last Thursday, I described Zelenskyy as good at international politics. That take did not age well after Friday. Anyone who knows anything about this administration knows you should come in, kiss the ring, sign the deal and leave. Trump is not a hard person to navigate. He's kind to people who compliment and respect him. This meeting again was going well. Trump was being friendly, saying all the right things, all the things Zelenskyy wanted to hear, and making important commitments. Zelenskyy was on the one yard line to get it done, and he blew it by picking a fight with the less important person he was sitting across from. But I also don't want to put all the agency on Zelenskyy either. Vance just as easily could have taken a cue from his boss and shrugged off Zelenskyy's question. He could have even used the opening to do the typical Trump worship now commonplace for the vice president. Yes, nobody believes striking this deal is going to be easy, but we're fortunate to have the greatest negotiator on earth. Boom. Done. Why is that so hard? I'll also confess that there is one other element underlying this meeting that made me more sympathetic to Zelenskyy. President Biden had been pouring the support on Ukraine, and Trump campaigned on ending that support. Vance also ran on the platform of ending aid to Ukraine for a Senate seat in 2022. In other words, Trump and Vance have each spent years making the public case that our support for Ukraine should stop, while also taking credit for that support, while also demanding Zelensky thank them for the support they are actively undermining. Gratitude, by the way he's expressed over and over in a sick twist of irony, this meeting up until the blowup was maybe the most unambiguously supportive of Ukraine I've ever heard. Trump, to strike an analogy, it'd be like getting a new boss at work who simultaneously criticizes everything you do while also demanding you be grateful to them for all the things your previous boss did for you. It is deeply manipulative. I say all this as someone who just last week defended Trump and Vance and wrote enthusiastically about the framework for this deal. I also say this as someone who would have given Trump an A for the first 40 minutes of this meeting, given how focused he seemed on a peace deal and how many little moments with Zelenskyy he just let go. Instead, it ended in disaster because of an unnecessary escalation to an unneeded pointed question. I really don't know what will happen now. Zelenskyy obviously still wants the deal. The Ukrainian people seem to support how he comported himself, even if they understand it may have been damaging. If Trump and Vance really do decide to end our support for Ukraine and pull out of this deal, Zelenskyy's actions will go down as one of the most catastrophic diplomatic failures I've ever seen. And for us, it'll be little more than a national disgrace. As Trump himself said on Friday, we shouldn't play games with World War Three. That message is applied just as well to Ukraine's leader as it does to our foreign we'll be right back after this quick break.

Isaac Saul (29:36)

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Marc Maron (30:07)

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Isaac Saul (30:49)

All right, that is it for my take. We are skipping today's reader question since my take went a bit long so I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace.

John Law (31:05)

Thanks Isaac. Here's your under the radar story for today folks. Preliminary government data shows that apprehensions at the US Mexico border dropped to their lowest levels in at least 25 years during President Trump Trump's first full month in office in February. Border Patrol says IT apprehended approximately 8,450 unauthorized migrants at the southern border, which once confirmed would be the lowest monthly total since fiscal year 2000, the last period with public monthly data. After reaching all time highs in 2023, border apprehensions have steadily decreased including a 38% decrease between December 2024 and January 2025. The Trump administration attributes the latest numbers to its government wide initiatives to reduce immigration. CBS News has this story and there's a link in today's episode Description alright, next up is our numbers section. The amount the United States aid to Ukraine disbursed between fiscal year 2022 and Q1 2025 is $83.4 billion, according to the United States Ukraine Oversight Interagency Working Group. The amount of US Aid to Ukraine that has been obligated but not yet dispersed is 57 billion. The amount of US aid to Ukraine that has been appropriated but not yet obligated is 39.6 billion. The percentage of U.S. adults who think Russia started the Ukraine Russia war is 61%, according to a February 2025 YouGov survey. The percentage of U.S. adults who think Ukraine started the Ukraine Russia war is 6%. The percentage of U.S. adults who think Russia and Ukraine bear equal responsibility for the start of the Ukraine Russia war is 15%. The percentage of adults in Britain, Germany and France, respectively, who think current measures against Russia and aid given to Ukraine is not enough to prevent a Russian victory is 58%, 54% and 52%, according to a December 2024 YouGov survey. The percentage of adults in Britain, Germany and France, respectively, who think their country should increase support to Ukraine is 21%, 21% and 14%. And the percentage of adults in Britain, Germany and France, respectively, who think their countries should support Ukraine until Russia withdraws, even if it means the war lasts longer is 36%, 28% and 23%. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. With the bird flu outbreak causing a national shortage, egg prices have skyrocketed to over $10 a dozen. In many places, two local farmers and a butcher decided to help their community offset these increased costs, handing out 200 cartons of eggs for free. Stationed at two locations in Astoria, Queens and Bedford Stuyvesant, Brooklyn, local shop Prince Abo's Butchery handed out eggs to lines stretched down the block. They planned to hold additional giveaways in March. We felt it was our duty to make eggs accessible, CEO Abo Sao said. It makes me so happy that we were able to do this. CBS News has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. Alright everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to readtangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership or a bundled membership that gives you a discount off of both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day y'all. Peace.

Isaac Saul (34:40)

Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Duke Thomas. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Will K Back daily Saul and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was made by Magdalena Bova, who is also our social media Manager. The music for the podcast was produced by Diet75 and if you are looking for more from Tangle, please go check out our website@readtangle.com that's readtangle.com.

Marc Maron (35:18)

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