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- [00:00]
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John Law
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Robert Mays
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- [02:05]
John Law
From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle.
- [02:20]
Isaac Saul
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening and welcome to the Tang Tangle Podcast, a place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode, we're going to be talking about the Donald Trump Zoran Mamdani meeting at the White House happened on Friday afternoon, right before Marjorie Taylor Greene announced she was resigning from Congress. It was a crazy Friday here at Tangle, just a wild way to end the week, I actually missed the Marjorie Taylor Greene news because it happened. You know, I'm offline for Shabbat every Friday to Saturday night and so it was insane to come back to that. I actually found out about it on Saturday. Somebody told me in person, a friend of mine and I took some self control to not open my phone and dive into the news. But we're going to be covering that tomorrow. Today we're covering the Trump Mamdani meeting, which I did watch live and was not terribly shocked by, which I'm going to talk a little bit about in my take today. It is Monday, November 24th. Before we jump into the show, one quick heads up. We are doing something we do every year around this time, which is we're offering a discount on a Tangle subscription for those of you who are not yet members. It is the week of Black Friday and then Cyber Monday and so we jump into the fray. If you're listening to this show and you have advertisements, that means you're on the free podcast feed. We're offering 30% off the first year of a Tangle subscription so you can become a member as a bundle. You can bundle the website and the podcast membership together that unlocks all of our digital products, the newsletter ad free, all the members only content on the website, the essays, the contributed pieces, the comments section, the mailbags, everything. And then you get all of that that comes out in podcast form, all the members only content on the podcast feed, plus you get a special ad. Free podcast feed. It's pretty easy. Once you subscribe, they take you through one or two steps. The feed gets added to wherever you listen to podcasts and it's a great product. So right now that bundle is $99 a year, but you can grab it for $69 a year if you'd like. Also, in case you miss it, on Friday I published one of those members only pieces about what my presidential platform would look like if I were trying to appeal to the middle of the American electorate today. The answer that I put together was a 10 point agenda tackling a range of hot button issues like affordability, police reform, foreign policy and birth rates. That show is just an episode or two. Back in our podcast feed you can find it. It's also up on our website and it is the kind of thing you unlock when you become a member. And if you already are a member, you can go back and listen to it without advertisements right now. Got a lot of feedback on this piece. I think we actually might do one of those livestream updates where I get to chat about the piece with some of you, our listeners and readers. So keep an ear out for that as well, probably after the Thanksgiving break. All right, with that, I'm going to send over to John for today's main story and I'll be back for my take.
- [05:49]
John Law
Thanks, Isaac, and welcome, everybody. Hope you all had a wonderful weekend. I was fortunate enough to actually meet up with one of our great podcast listeners, Greg from Texas, and I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to hang out and meet up. It was really, really great to get to meet you and talk a lot about each other's lives entangle and how it's worked out for us. To that end, actually, I do have a question. For the last couple of months, I've been doing this question to the audience as a way to kind of frame the week with some positivity. We hear a lot from people about having news fatigue and, you know, feeling at a loss when it comes to all this political coverage. Initially thought it might be nice to start the week off with a positive framing question, something that could just remind us of our humanity and our connection to the community. So my question for you guys is, do you enjoy it? Has it been providing value for you? I certainly hope it has, but understand, if it hasn't, I know it's not for everybody. I do get that. But the one thing that I really want to emphasize is, you know, I just want to try and bring a little bit of, you know, myself to the podcast and also, you know, remind everybody that because we're a community, we're also lucky and fortunate enough to have each other and to share in each other's ups and downs and joys. And I think that's one of the best aspects of having a good community. So maybe this is a section that goes well in the front. Maybe it can be moved to the middle after the my take or maybe in replacement of the have a nice day story. Or in addition to it. I'd love to hear your thoughts, so please feel free to reach out to me. Johnadtangle.com that's j o n@readtangle.com and and as always, let's remember to bring the best of ourselves to everything that we do in the hopes of spreading positivity to those around us and to the world. All right, with all that said, let's jump into today's quick hits. First up, Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, the Republican from Georgia, announced she will resign from Congress on January 5, 2026, saying she did not want to pursue a difficult primary election after President Trump publicly denounced her and withdrew his endorsement. Number two, Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito ruled that Texas can temporarily resume using its redrawn congressional map that is expected to benefit Republicans. A panel of federal judges struck down the new map last week, but Alito's decision will allow candidates to file for office under the new boundaries while the Supreme Court considers Texas appeal to the lower court ruling. The US And Ukraine released a joint statement saying that they made meaningful progress toward aligning positions on a peace plan to end the war in Ukraine. And initial draft of the plan required Ukraine to cede some land to Russia and reduce the size of its military in return for security guarantees from the United States, among other provisions. President Trump has been pushing for Ukraine to formally respond to the proposal by Thursday. Number four, Israel carried out an airstrike in Beirut, Lebanon, and claimed it killed Hezbollah's chief of staff. Lebanon's health ministry said five people were killed and 25 injured in the strike. And number five, the United States military is reportedly preparing to launch new operations in the coming days to pressure on Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro's government. The nature and scope of the operations are not yet clear.
- [09:19]
Donald Trump
And I wanted to congratulate the mayor. He really ran an incredible race against a lot of smart people, starting with the early primaries against some very tough people, very smart people. And he beat them and he beat them easily and I congratulated him and we talked about some things in very strong common like housing and getting housing built and food and prices and the price of oil is coming way down. Anything I do is going to be good for New York. If I can get prices down, it's good for New York. And we've got them down, way down from, from last year. We have. As you know, I've been saying to a lot of people, Walmart said that Thanksgiving this year is exactly 25% less than last year. So that's good for New York, good for everybody. But I just want to congratulate, I think you're going to have hopefully a really great mayor. The better he does, the happier I am. I will say there's no difference in party, there's no difference in anything. And we're going to be helping him to make everybody's dream come true, having a strong and very safe New York. And congratulations, Mr. Mayor. Thank you, Mr. President, thank you.
- [10:28]
John Law
I appreciate it. On Friday, President Donald Trump hosted New York City Mayor elect Zoran Mamdani at the White House, where they met in private before answering questions in the Oval Office. Despite sharp mutual criticism in recent months, Trump and Mamdani were notably cordial, expressing a shared desire to address cost of living and safety issues in New York City. The president in particular surprised some observers by complimenting the mayor elect and expressing optimism about his incoming administration. Mamdani, a Democratic socialist, won New York City's mayoral election on November 4, defeating former Democratic New York Governor Andrew Cuomo and activist and radio talk show host Curtis Sliwa. Trump endorsed Cuomo in the race and has repeatedly criticized Mamdani and his platform, calling him a communist and threatening to pull federal funding to the city if he won. Mamdani has also criticized Trump, calling him a despot in his election night victory speech, and has repeatedly promised to challenge the administration's policies as mayor. Trump said that Mamdani requested the White House meeting, which a spokesperson for the mayor elect said is customary for the incoming leader of the city. During Friday's press conference, President Trump and Mayor Elect Mamdani each emphasized their common interest in addressing affordability. Some of Mamdani's ideas are the same ideas I have, trump said, adding, we agree on a lot more than I would have thought. Mamdani echoed this sentiment, saying, what I really appreciate about the president is that the meeting that we had focused not on places of disagreement, which there are many, and also focused on the shared purpose that we have in serving New Yorkers. Reporters repeatedly pressured both leaders on their past comments about the other, but neither opted to reiterate their criticisms. At one point, a reporter asked Mamdani if he still thinks Trump is a fascist. As the mayor elect began to answer, the president interrupted him and said the that's okay. You can just say yes. It's easier than explaining. Trump also said he disagreed with Representative Elise Stefanik, the Republican from New York, a Trump ally and candidate for governor in 2026, that Mamdani is a jihadist. The cordial meeting sparked a range of reactions across the political spectrum, particularly on the right. Representative Nicole Maliatakis, the Republican from New York, questioned whether the two leaders could find common ground on policy, saying, I don't know if their views of how you get to the affordability issue are really in line. Obviously one wants to implement socialist policies and price controls that we know don't work. Democrats were mixed in their response. A spokesperson for Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, the Democrat from New York, said, the senator feels like a meeting like this can only be good for New York. Others, like Senator Elizabeth Warren, the Democrat from Massachusetts, suggested the president was attempting to link himself to Mamdani's recent electoral success. Today, we'll share reactions to the meeting from the left and the right, and then Isaac's take.
- [13:23]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [13:33]
John Law
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- [14:57]
John Law
Alright, first up, let's start with what the left is saying. The left praises Mamdani's performance in the meeting, saying he charmed Trump without ceding ground. Some doubt that a Trump Mamdani alliance can hold. Others say the mayor elect should maintain his tack in dealing with the president. In Jacobin, Peter Dreier wrote Zoran Mamdani knew how to handle Donald Trump. Trump is impulsive. His anger and resentments have been on full display in the past few weeks. He's lashed out at report and used his truth social platform to attack his enemies with long rants even longer and more incoherent than usual, dreier said. But like most bullies, Trump doesn't like personal confrontations except toward reporters and women unless he can intimidate them. He probably recognized that he couldn't intimidate the self assured, confident and fast on his feet. Mamdani, who just came away with one of the most amazing against the odds political victories in American history. As New York mayor, Mamdani has an extremely hard task. Ken Mamdani rallied the state's liberals and progressives to push Governor Hochul, state legislators to embrace his agenda. Will Trump send his federal stormtroopers to New York City to kidnap, arrest and detain immigrants? Dreier asked. The Republican Party will try to make Mamdani the face of the Democratic Party, a red baiting tactic intended to discredit its candidates in swing races as socialists. But on Friday, with both men understanding that it would be good for both of them to say nice things and show mutual respect, that approach was thrown into question. In what's Left, Zeeshan Aleem explored the baffling Trump Mamdani White House meeting Trump predominantly deals with establishment Democrats who are scared of their own reflection and defend the status quo. He was probably struck by Mamdani's confidence in attacking the system as failing and his relentless focus on the working class, alim said. But I've also seen firsthand that it's a sensation that emerges when populists across the political spectrum actually speak directly to each other. I don't actually think it's ultimately true because I believe right wing populism is fundamentally a ruse that betrays working class interests. But as a feeling, I can see why the impressionable Trump could have been nudged in that direction. As impressive as Mamdani's charm offense was, I am highly skeptical it will stick. Trump is mercurial, often gets caught up in the buzz of the last meeting he was in and didn't have to make any hard decisions during what was mostly a vibe check in about a city he feels nostalgia for, alim wrote. He did suggest that he would not be aggressively trying to make Mamdani's life impossible, but his entire political style revolves around adversarial positions toward his political opponents, and only time will tell if he sticks by that position. Once the conversation wears off, Trump is likely to return to his old ways. In the Atlantic, Michael Powell said the mayor elect proved he can charm a foe. Trump always and ever loves winners, whether a Saudi crown prince, a billionaire businessman or apparently a Democrat Democratic socialist mayor fresh off an underdog win. He also admires those who dress well and carry themselves with confidence. Mamdani meets these requirements, powell wrote. Mamdani can at times drop his smile and sound confrontational, as he did in his election night speech, slamming his vanquished opponent Andrew Cuomo and challenging Trump directly. But his more impressive ability as a pole was on display in the weeks that followed as he slipped into that smile of his once more and quietly went about appointing some wise old hands as mayoral Aiden. This afternoon, Mamdani appeared to charm a dangerous foe, and in doing so perhaps purchased himself a respite from Trump's threats to send the National Guard to New York. But Mamdani should restrain his post game talk, Powell said. In the months to come, Trump could still decide to send the National Guard marching down Broadway or direct masked Border Patrol agents to raid Roosevelt Avenue in Queens or to try to strip federal funding for housing and bridges. The best way to avoid these outcomes is for Mamdani to accept his victory quite quietly. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying. Which brings us to what the right is saying. Many on the right say the meeting's tone was surprising but worked to both leaders benefit. Some argue Trump and Mamdani are models of how to transcend party identity. Others called the meeting a welcome respite from heated partisan fighting. In the New York Post, Michael Goodwin said the meeting comes as a shock and promise that there is hope for New York City because good news doesn't sell. There were surely some long faces in American newsrooms on Friday afternoon. The expected and even hoped for explosion between President Trump and New York Mayor elect Zoran Mamdani turned out to be a festival of mutual admiration. Given the grim forecast, it was as shocking as if cats and dogs decided to make a love story, goodwill wrote. The president was so pleased with their initial 45 minute private meeting that he withdrew his previous threat to slash funding for Gotham because of Mamdani's election and promised instead to help the city. The bonamy highlights one of the great failures of Dem congressional leaders from the city. Representative Hakeem Jeffries in the House and Senator Chuck Schumer have not taken advantage of Trump being a New Yorker to get more out of him for the city that he so clearly loves. Instead, they act like free floating partisans, untethered from any responsibility to help the people who sent them to Washington, goodwin said. As for crossover voters, Mamdani's smartest move was to brand the cost of living issue with a catchy name, calling it the affordability crisis because it is undeniable that the price of everything in New York is going through the roof. His opponents were stuck trying to play catch up on his turf. In Unherd, James Billett suggested Mamdani trumpers are America's future. There were an estimated 60,000 New Yorkers who voted for Trump and Mamdani in a city of 8 million. That might not seem like much, but they exemplify a broader trend across the country. As the month's special elections showed, American's non white population is becoming ideologically promiscuous flirting between both major parties and shedding long standing partisan loyalties in the process, bullitt wrote. When I visited with some of the neighborhoods where the Trump mom Donnie swing was most pronounced, the overall message was clear. The status quo was not working. With next year's midterms looming, this restless, unpredictable bloc could prove decisive in shaping the balance of power in Washington. With a strong anti incumbent sentiment spreading across the country, Democrats are well placed to capitalize on this voter disaffection. But if there's one thing this party excels at, it's snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Should Mamdani fail to deliver on any of his ambitious promises, it could tarnish the Democratic brand for years, Billet said. More broadly, the Trump Mamdani overlap illustrates a wider trend that American politics is becoming increasingly volatile, localized and issue driven rather than strictly tribal. In Fox News, David Marcus wrote, trump and Mamdani showed us all how to act at Thanksgiving. Going into the meeting, expectations ran high that tempers might flare. Would we see a repeat of the angry confab Trump had with Volodymyr Zelenskyy months ago, full of fiery recriminations? But as it turns out, that was never really in the cards. It was to neither man's advantage to cause a scene on Friday, much less to be judged the cause of such a scene, Marcus said. The meeting was also a reminder that unlike Mamdani, Trump is not an ideologue. He has been a Democrat in the Reform Party and the leader of the gop. For Trump, the question is whether a policy works, not if Edmund Burke or William F. Buckley would approve of it. While this truce between the soon to be His Honor and the Commander in Chief may not last much longer than Christmas or New Year's, Trump could still have ice descent upon Gotham. Mamdani could still try to arrest foreign dignitaries. For now, the pleasantries are a welcome respite, marcus said. Perhaps as we enter the season of Advent next week, this is exactly what Americans needed to see. Two men who could not be more polar opposites in the political imagination of their nation, nonetheless treating each other with dignity and respect. Alright, let's head over to Isaac for his take.
- [23:00]
Isaac Saul
All right. That is it for the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to my take. I think Friday is only shocking if you deeply misunderstand both Trump and Mamdani. The president, ever since he entered the political fray, has been motivated more by personal relationships than political ideology. In my estimation, he has only three bedrock policy positions reduce immigration, impose tariffs and cut taxes Everything else is negotiable. Of course, you can also file this meeting as the latest example of my favorite all encompassing theory of Trump, first popularized by the Washington Post Amber Phillips he adopts the opinion of the last person that he spoke to, Nancy Pelosi understood Trump's ideological flexibility well during his first term. Since then, Trump has built out a firmer set of negotiable priorities and after accruing 10 years of Trump related baggage, Democrats have lost sight of the possibilities his flexibility offers. The president was never going to reject Mamdani because of government run grocery stores or free childcare. He was never going to reject him for being Muslim or running some ads in Arabic. He wasn't even going to reject Mamdani for calling him a fascist on the campaign trail. Trump understands the theater of politics better than most, and he understands that people do what it takes to win. Personal insults are forgivable sins in his world, and they always have been. Just look at Trump's cabinet. It's a smorgasbord of people who have compared him to Hitler, warned about his fitness for the job. Shoot, he's already urging Marjorie Taylor Greene to return to politics two days after she announced her retirement due to a mutual falling out over the trajectory of the Republican Party. What matters, and what was always going to matter, is how Mamdani treats Trump in person and how he approached their first meeting in the White House, and Mamdani came correct. We obviously aren't privy to what happened behind closed doors, but the two men made overtures to their private discussion. Throughout their bizarrely chummy press conference, they talked about Mamdani keeping the current police commissioner, reducing crime affordability, ending the war in Gaza and making New York City great. We might call the result a quote unquote reverse Zelensky. Trump defended Mamdani from maga, saying the mayor elect is not a jihadist or an extremist. He protected him from the press, giving Mamdani a free pass on a tough question about calling him a fascist. He literally gave his mayorship the Trump blessing, saying he'd feel comfortable living in New York City under Mamdani and thought the mayor elect has what it takes to make the city great again. Evan Roth Smith, a Democratic strategist and former Tangle podcast guest, predicted this outcome nearly three weeks ago. I suspect that Trump views Vamdani as less of a foe or a foil and more as a worthy fellow cast member on the stage of the American political drama, smith said. Combined with his personal and financial connections to New York City, I think we are in store for treatment that is distinct and more nuanced than what Trump has done to other big cities. Others miss the mark. Senator Rick Scott, the Republican from Florida, excitedly posted that the literal Communist Mamdani was about to be schooled by Trump. Conservative columnists for weeks have been spilling ink about how New York is lost and will actually become a hotbed of Sharia law and crime. Members of Congress and MAGA influencers actually suggested that Trump should denaturalize and deport Mamdani. Instead, he invited him to the White House for a love fest. Imagine being a Republican leader in Congress. You've spent weeks signaling that you want to make Mamdani the face of the Democratic Party, convince the country that Democrats want Islamist communists to take over and run against that caricature in the 2026 midterms. Then, in one afternoon, Trump lights your entire plan on fire. It's amazing that after all this time, so many Republicans still thought Trump might respond to someone like Mamdani by throwing him out of the country again. Much of Trump's success, both as a politician and a dealmaker, comes from his willingness to work with anyone over any terms. And what about Mamdani? His reversal of expectation is just as notable and just as stark as Trump's. After all, it was Mamdani who called Trump a fascist and a despot and framed him as an Islamophobic corrupt billionaire. Then Mamdani shows up at the White House with his bright smile and thanks the president for his desire to work together to help New York. What should we make of that? Well, for one, it's a nice reminder that politicians like Mamdani use the word fascist pretty loosely. It's typically not wise to shake hands with bonafide fascists, and most fascists don't invite you over for tea after you harangue them on television. I hate to break it to you, but the authentic young upstart from Morningside Heights is also a participant in the theater of politics. Like Trump and like everyone else. Second, Mamdani is far more pragmatic than most people give him credit for. I mean, what is he supposed to do? If he showed up to the White House itching for a fight, he'd put all of New York City in a much worse position. That pragmatism has gotten him pilloried by some people on the left for capitulating to Trump. But he knows that New York needs federal funding, and he's keenly aware of how ugly things could get if Trump makes the city a battleground for immigration enforcement. The easiest solution to those problems is to be friendly with Trump. Mamdani, unlike many of his peers in the Democratic Party, understood the assignment, and he understands Trump. The president loves New York City and cares about its prosperity, and Mamdani knows a diplomatic relationship is mutually beneficial. If there's anything to criticize in this dynamic, it isn't Mamdani's diplomacy but how reliant New York City is on federal support. Now, is this the beginning of some Mamdani Trump populist coalition focused on affordability? No, I don't think so. But it does show the left and the right have enough common ground, at least on the importance of improving affordability from which a future politician could build mass appeal. That's part of what I wrote about on Friday. It's jarring, obviously, to see Trump give Mamdani a warmer embrace than the Democratic Party has. But it's also a testament to the power of economic populism and a concrete example of just how much Mamdani has to teach his own party. All right, that is it for today's my take. I'm going to send it over to Will for your questions answered and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace.
- [29:35]
John Law
Foreign.
- [29:39]
Isaac Saul
We'Ll be right back after this quick break.
- [29:44]
John Law
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a.
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John Law
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John Law
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- [32:45]
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This is Associate Editor Lindsay Knuth and the charity I'm sharing today is the Philadelphia Animal Welfare Society, or paws. A few months ago I had just moved into my own apartment and I was interested in potentially fostering an animal or a few. So I attended a foster orientation at PAWS and they told me about something called a safety net foster program which provides temporary housing for the pets of people who are undergoing all types of issues health, familial, economic. I ended up leaving with two cats that day and now the bonded male cat pair named Wayne and Garth have made themselves very at home at my place while their owner gets back on their feet. PAWS is Philly's largest no kill shelter and you can support their essential work with a donation. Or better yet, you can get involved with your local animal shelter. This is Audrey and a charity I support is the Churches of Christ disaster relief effort It's a faith based charitable organization that mobilizes around the country after natural disasters. When a devastating tornado struck a nearby town while I was in high school in Tennessee, my local congregation hosted a drive for supplies and money and then a few members, including me, spent a Saturday volunteering in an effort coordinated by the organization. They provide all sorts of care to communities in need such as food, clothing, baby supplies and more, as well as financial assistance in rebuilding efforts. If you're interested, I highly suggest supporting your local faith based disaster relief organization.
- [34:08]
Isaac Saul
Hey guys, Isaac here. The charity that I'm going to recommend is yeah, Philly, a nonprofit in Philadelphia that works with teens and young adults aged 15 to 24 who have been impacted by violence. The organization was designed to respond to the absence of culturally relevant orgs that keep teens out of trouble, and they've created services to keep them busy in the evenings when violence is most prevalent. With everything from peer meditation and conflict resolution to simply creating hangout spaces for teenagers, it's one of the organizations making a tangible difference on the ground in one of America's roughest cities.
- [34:49]
John Law
Thanks team, and those sound like some incredible charities to give to, and we should have some more for you in tomorrow's newsletter and podcast as well. Here is your under the radar story for today, folks. On Sunday, Reuters reported that the Trump administration's Department of Government Efficiency, or doge, has disbanded eight months before its mandate was due to expire. Office of Personnel Management Director Scott Kupper told the outlet that DOGE is no longer a centralized entity and the government wide hiring freeze imposed by the group has also ended. DOGE played a prominent role in the early months of the Trump administration, making highly publicized moves to reduce the size of federal agencies and the workforce. But critics claim that they cut critical programs without producing meaningful savings. Reuters has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. All right, next up is our numbers section. Zoran Mamdani received 1,036,051 votes in New York City's mayoral election. Donald Trump received 838,838 votes in New York City in the 2024 presidential election, according to a CBS News analysis. An estimated 60,000 New York City voters supported Trump in 2024 and Mamdani in 2025. The number of times either Trump or Mamdani said affordability in their Oval Office press conference was seven. The number of times cost of living crisis was said in the press conference was four, according to a November 2025 Siena poll, 45% of New York State residents think Mamdani's election as mayor will be good for New York City, while 39% think it will be bad for New York City. And According to an October 2025 CBS News YouGov poll, 75% of U.S. adults say the Trump administration is not focusing enough on lowering prices of goods and services. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. Studies showed that women are 73% more likely to be seriously injured and 17% more likely to be killed in car accidents than men. This disparity partially arises from the fact that most auto manufacturers use test dummies designed after the male body. And the current standard female dummy, created in the 1970s, weighs 108 pounds, based on the smallest 5% of American women. But in late November, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration unveiled details about the Thor 05 F, an advanced new test dummy based on average female proportions that will soon become standard in government crash testing. While the dummy won't be used in official tests until 2027 or 2028, the NHTSA's announcement represents a major step forward for women's driving safety. NBC News has this story and there's a link in today's episode description alright everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to retangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'. All. Peace.
- [37:56]
Isaac Saul
Our Executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our Executive producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will Kbach and Associate editors Hunter Caspersen, Audrey Moorhead, Bailey Saul, Lindsay Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@the retangle.com.
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John Law
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