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- [00:01]
Ryan Reynolds
Mic check 12 Are we recording?
- [00:05]
Michelle Bernstein
Hi, I'm Michelle Bernstein, an award winning chef, restaurateur and mom. I have a lot on my plate, including my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. That's why I was prescribed Cosentyx.
- [00:17]
Ryan Reynolds
It helps me move better.
- [00:19]
Isaac Saul
Cosentyx Secukenumab is prescribed for people 2.
- [00:22]
Michelle Bernstein
Years of age and older with active psoriatic arthritis. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentyx before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. An increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur. Like tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections. Some were fatal. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough, had a vaccine or plan to or if inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen, serious allergic reactions and severe eczema like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-cosentyx or cosentyx.com Ask your rheumatologist about Cosentyx.
- [01:01]
Ryan Reynolds
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone. Paying Big Wireless Way Too Much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
- [01:22]
John Law
Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com got a new puppy or kitten? Congrats. But also yikes. Between crates, beds, toys, treats and those first few vet visits, you've probably already dropped a small fortune. Which is where Lemonade Pet Insurance comes in. It helps you cover vet costs so that you can focus on what's best for you and your new pet. The coverage is customizable, sign up is quick and easy, and your claims are handled in as little as three seconds. Lemonade offers a package specifically for puppies and kittens. Get a'llemonade.com pet your future self will thank you. Your pet won't. They don't know what insurance is. From Executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle.
- [02:26]
Isaac Saul
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Sull, and on today's episode we're going to be talking about the Afrikaners the South Africa refugees who were just admitted to the United States, and some of the controversy around them. Before we do jump into that though, I have to apologize. This is a bit embarrassing. This morning for those of you on our mailing list, we sent an email with our team bios inadvertently to our entire mailing list. Like 400,000 people. It was a page post that we were working on to publish on the website and unfortunately an engineer who is testing out that staff page to launch this morning accidentally sent it to our entire mailing list with incomplete bios and names next to photos that weren't the people who were pictured. It was a mess. So we apologize. That being said, we do have our staff page now up live on our website. If you want to go check it out with pictures of the team, short bios of about who they are. It's pretty cool to look at. There will be a link to it in today's episode description Also, a quick promo that tomorrow we are doing a reader mailbag in the podcast, so if you want to check that out, you should keep an eye on your feed. We'll publish a free preview of it to everyone. But as always with some of our Friday posts, you will need to subscribe and become a Tangle member in order to unlock the full ad free episode, which you should do because those subscriptions are what keeps this project going. All right, with that, I'm going to send it over to John for today's main topic and I'll be back for my take.
- [04:17]
Michelle Bernstein
Thanks Isaac and welcome everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, officials from Russia and Ukraine will meet in Turkey today for peace talks. The United States is also expected to send an official delegation. Russian President Vladimir Putin will reportedly not be in attendance. Number two, a federal grand jury indicted Wisconsin Judge Hannah Dugan on two counts for her alleged attempt to help an unauthorized migrant evade immigration authorities. Number three, Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard, fired the acting chair of the National Intelligence Council and his deputy. Gabbard also moved to bring the agency under the purview of the Office of the Director of national intelligence. Number four, the Justice Department is reportedly investigating UnitedHealth Group for possible criminal Medicare fraud. And number five, the Supreme Court heard arguments on whether to lift or narrow a series of lower court injunctions blocking the Trump administration's birthright citizenship ban from taking effect. In the meantime, the Trump administration welcomed a group of 59 white South Africans as refugees, prompting some serious blowback from immigration advocates.
- [05:35]
Isaac Saul
Let me see.
- [05:37]
Michelle Bernstein
As President Trump's Immigration crackdown continues welcome.
- [05:41]
Isaac Saul
To the United States of America.
- [05:43]
Michelle Bernstein
The administration rolled out the red carpet for 59 white South Africans they call refugees, saying they faced racial discrimination back home. On Monday, 59 South Africans arrived in the United States as refugees, the first group to be granted the designation under an executive order signed by President Donald Trump in February. The refugees are Afrikaners, a South African minority group descended primarily from Dutch settlers who arrived in South Africa during the 17th century. President Trump said the group has been the victim of racially discriminatory policies that have led to disproportionate violence, which he equated to genocide. The South African government rejects this accusation. For context, Afrikaners make up a small percentage of South Africa's population, which is more than 80% black. Many Afrikaners work as farmers, and they own a disproportionate amount of the country's agricultural land, a carryover effect from apartheid policies in the 20th century. In January, South African President Cyril Ramaphosa signed a law allowing the government to seize privately owned land without compensation or when deemed to be in the public interest. While the government says no land has been seized yet, the law prompted concern with Afrikaners who feared their land could be targeted. White House Advisor Elon Musk decried the racist ownership laws as contributing to an ongoing genocide against white farmers, though crime and murder data suggest violence against Afrikaners is not happening on a scale constituting genocide. Subsequently, President Trump signed an executive order pausing all foreign assistance to South Africa and directing the Secretaries of State and Home Homeland Security to expedite the process of resettling Afrikaners in the United States as refugees. South Africans can now submit a statement of interest for the resettlement program to the US Embassy in Pretoria, South Africa's administrative capital. Refugee admission typically takes months or years, but the US fast tracked the process for the group that arrived on Monday and expects to accept additional arrivals. President Ramaphosa has rebuked the US for classifying Afrikaners as refugees. Those people who are being enticed to go to the United States do not fit the definition of refugee, ramaphosa said on Monday. A refugee is someone who has to leave their country out of fear of political persecution, religious persecution or economic persecution, and they don't fit that bill. Ramaphosa also called the Afrikaner seeking refugee status in the US Cowardly. Refugee advocates in the US also questioned the decision to admit Afrikaner refugees after the Trump administration paused the U.S. refugee Admissions Program in January. Deputy Secretary of State Christopher Landau justified the decision by emphasizing the Executive Order's criteria for admitting refugees who do not pose any challenge to our national security and can be assimilated easily into our country. The Trump administration says the Department of Health and Human Services will help resettle the Afrikaner refugees by facilitating temporary or longer term housing and basic home furnishings, essential household items and cleaning supplies. Separately, the Episcopal Church, which has helped resettle refugees under federal grants for nearly four decades, said it would terminate its contract with the government over its decision to admit the Afrikaners. In light of our church's steadfast commitment to racial justice and reconciliation and our historic ties with the Anglican Church of Southern Africa, we are not able to take this step, presiding Bishop Sean Rowe said. Today we'll explore the debate over giving Afrikaners refugee status with views from the left, right and South African writers, and then Isaac's take.
- [09:31]
Isaac Saul
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- [10:40]
John Law
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- [11:25]
Michelle Bernstein
All right, first up, let's start with what the left is saying. The left criticizes Trump for admitting one group of refugees while excluding all others. Others criticize the president's description of the situation in South Africa as a genocide. In Bloomberg, Patricia Lopez wrote, afghan refugees should be treated as well as South African ones. It's ironic that Trump finds it so easy to acknowledge systemic racism in South Africa or while denying its effects in the U.S. even worse is the administration's admission of white Afrikaners to the US While it works to deport refugees and asylum seekers, many of whom are not white already in the country. As for genocide, little evidence has surfaced, Lopez said it is true that South African law, which came into effect in January, gives the government the power to confiscate property without compensation for a real estate developer like Trump, that had to cut deeply. And surely it didn't hurt that Trump's biggest donor, South African born Elon Musk, made the case on the Afrikaner's behalf. Ordinarily, a concern for the life, safety and property of a minority group, accompanied by a determination to cut through red tape to get them out of danger, would be cause for praise. For more than seven decades, the US has been offering people from other countries refuge from storms of chaos and violence, lopez said. The problem is that Trump has paused the entire US refugee admissions program while an estimated 133rd conditionally approved refugees, mostly black and brown skinned, remain in limbo. This inequality in treatment is too obvious to ignore. In New York Magazine, Ed Kilgore argued Trump's claim of Afrikaner genocide strips the word of any meaning. It's hardly news that Donald Trump uses over the top rhetoric to inflate his many boasts of world historical greatness and to smear his opponents. But even the lowest of expectations cannot forgive the abusive language the president committed during a press availability today in defending his his creation of refugee status for white South African farmers, even as he is closing the door on refugees from virtually everywhere else, Kilgore said. The president of the United States is grossly misusing a term that should be strictly reserved for the worst outrages of human cruelty. Genocide. Postcolonial or for that matter, post feudal land redistribution policies are hardly all that unusual. And while it's possible to question their wisdom or fairness, they do not inherently cry out to heaven for vengeance, kilgore wrote. Even the legitimate fears of Afrikaners that they could lose their land without compensation remain more hypocritical than real, since the South African government has not moved to implement the expropriation law. But in any event, losing land, however painful or unjust, is not by any reasonable definition, genocide. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying. Which brings us to what the right is saying. Some on the right say Trump is right to prioritize refugees who are best equipped to assimilate into America. Others argue the left's criticism of the move falls flat. In the Federalist, Brianna Lyman said Trump is right to prioritize refugees who will make better Americans. On Monday, dozens of South Africans, primarily white Afrikaner farmers, arrived in the United States having been granted refugee status by the Trump administration. The propaganda press responded by implicitly excusing the administration of hypocrisy and racial bias. Yet this criticism is not only disingenuous, it reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose and limits of America's refugee and asylum policies, lyman wrote. The admission of 60 refugees is miniscule compared to the thousands of resettlements the administration has attempted to halt. And while critics seize upon this as evidence of selective compassion spurred by bias, the truth is far more practical. Smaller, more culturally aligned groups tend to integrate more successfully into American communities. A handful of English speaking farmers who share many of America's civic and cultural values presents far less strain on communities than the resettlement of thousands of individuals from vastly different societies such as Haiti, where integration challenges are numerous, lyman said. This isn't xenophobia. It's discernment. A refugee policy that aligns with our founding values and shared cultural identity does not oppose diversity. It merely insists on compatibility with a goal not of racial homogeneity but of cultural integrity. In National Review, Noah Rothman suggested the left plays into Trump's hands on admission of South African refugees. We find ourselves in the midst of a dramatic role reversal. All of a sudden, the Trump administration is positioning itself as a champion of the rights of oppressed minorities abroad, yearning for the liberty and security that can be found only within America's borders. Democrats, by contrast, are up in arms over the importation of a refugee population facing persecution abroad, Rothman wrote. To a particular type of left wing activist, it might as well still be 1993 in South Africa, a nation plagued by apartheid style abuses executed by its tyrannical white minority. They must think, how could such a population ever be oppressed? Likewise, among the president's more performatively provocative defenders, agitating all the right people is a virtue in and of itself. Trump and his defenders are utterly unfazed by the allegation that their policies are thinly veiled sobs to white supremacists and fascists. The power of that argument is exhausted. It resonates with no one save devotees of and converts to the democratic cause. Worse still, Democrats are wagering whatever authority they retain on immigration issues by seeming to adopt a racially discretionary standard when evaluating the relative level of persecution about which they should care. Rothman said. If oppression is oppression, and if America remains the last best hope of mankind, the shining beacon on the hill, it should not matter whether the victims of foreign oppression have the correct lineage and approved genetic markers. Alright, that is it for what the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to what some South African writers are saying. Many South African writers view Trump's decision as a challenge to the country's democratic system. Some Afrikaner writers say Trump's claims about the challenges facing the group are inaccurate. In the Daily Maverick, Lisa Otto said Afrikaner refugees in the US will neither be welcomed as martyrs nor nor fast tracked to privilege. From the perspective of the public, choosing this particular route to leave South Africa is egregious and runs counter to the national spirit we are trying to foster. But beyond the obvious diplomatic irritation and ideological provocation, it is worth considering a different dimension. What exactly are these individuals walking into? Otto asked. It is likely that some among this group believe that they are heading to a land of prosperity, liberty and recognition. That expectation may quickly confront the grittier reality of life as a refugee. Refugee status does not come with a red carpet. It comes with temporary assistance, complex bureaucratic systems and the immediate expectation of economic self reliance. When a foreign power grants refugee status to a privileged minority from a democratic country without conflict, it undermines the legitimacy of South African democracy itself. It signals, intentionally or not, that the post apartheid project has failed in the eyes of Donald Trump and his friends, and it does so without evidence. South Africa should respond with calm clarity, not by inflaming tensions, but by reaffirming the legitimacy of our constitutional order and the truth of our ongoing, if imperfect transformation, otto said. The U.S. decision is also a stark reminder of how our national story is received abroad, almost completely without nuance. In the Guardian, Max Duprees wrote, as a white Afrikaner, I can now claim asylum in Trump's America. What an absurdity. I am a blue blooded Afrikaner, at least in terms of ancestry. Both my grandfathers were young Boers, soldiers in the Anglo Boer War, and I am directly related to the president of the old Transvaal Republic, Paul Kruger. Unlike other colonial societies in Africa, my ancestors never left, Dupree said. Imagine my bewilderment when Donald Trump and his first buddy, South African born Elon Musk, declared that we Afrikaners are a threatened species, that our black compatriots are engaged in a genocide, that we are victims of oppression and discrimination, and as such offered special refugee status in the United States. Where does their interest in our country come from? South Africa irritated the US and other Western governments when it took Israel into the ICJ International Court of Justice alleging genocide in its war in Gaza. Trump made this clear in his Executive Order on South Africa, Dupries wrote. But Trump's expressed anger is mainly directed at the treatment of Afrikaners, a group of people he's probably never thought of before. Musk became his confidant. Why this fixation? Three letters D, E I. Diversity, equity and inclusion in South Africa. It's called Black empowerment and affirmative or corrective action attempts to speed up the recovery from centuries of dehumanization, exclusion from the economy and job reservation. All right, let's head over to Isaac for his take.
- [21:05]
Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for with the left and the right and some opinion writers from South Africa are saying. Which brings us to my take. When this story first started to percolate. This is what I posted on X. I said, quote, we should obviously accept Africana refugees to the United States. There is very little doubt about the persecution and violence they've faced. The point should be that we maintain this posture towards similarly persecuted and in need groups, regardless of race or language or religion. I was making a point about our posture toward refugees more broadly, not about Afrikaners. In particular, I have a lot of empathy for any persecuted group and I had read news reports about Afrikaner farmers being murdered and commentary tying those murders to anti white and anti wealth tensions. That paired with a legislative push inside South Africa to seize privately owned land without compensation, led me to conclude that Afrikaners were easily one of those refugee groups. I support our country helping imagine being an Afrikaner and hearing elected leader Julius Malama say, quote, we are not calling for the slaughtering of all white people, at least for now. End quote. If I were them, I might feel a sense of persecution too. And if I were living amid the incredibly complex post apartheid tensions in South Africa, I can certainly imagine why I might want to flee. That being said, I was surprised and my curiosity was piqued when a stream of responses to my post contested the very premise of this persecution. It turns out that I had taken in quite a bit of online hyperbole about what Afrikaners are experiencing, while other viral posts grossly exaggerated the data on murders of farmers. That's not to say it doesn't happen or isn't an issue. As Jean Ives Casmas, the head of the Observatory of Political Radicalization at the foundation for European Progressive Studies, said, God, that is a mouthful. When you have 50 to 60 people, mainly Afrikaners, killed every year, with families murdered through acts of torture, you cannot ignore them. It's just to say that the persecution is not as bad as it is represented. White farmers in South Africa certainly aren't facing a quote, unquote genocide, as President Donald Trump and Elon Musk are claiming, a claim that honestly removes all meaning from the word genocide. So obviously South Africa's land ownership situation is the product of decades of apartheid that has historically benefited the country's white minority. Millions of South Africans understandably want to rectify past injustices. We cannot accept retribution. We cannot and should not accept retribution in the form of violence. And as I say often no person is responsible for the sins of their ancestors. But anyone with even a paper thin understanding of the country's history can grasp how it could motivate the government to propose some otherwise radical sounding ideas like like land seizures without compensation. All of that brings us to the United States role in what happened this week. Trump, who has attempted to shut down our refugee program and holds a generally antagonistic posture toward refugees, I think it's fair to say, is suddenly embracing Afrikaners. So what makes these refugees different? It is of course reasonable to believe that Afrikaners will assimilate more easily than most other refugees because they are English speakers who espouse pro American views and say they want to be a part of our country. They're also a small group of dozens of people, barely a drop in the bucket of total asylum seekers. Likely even, they are the coincidental beneficiaries of Trump's personal relationships. And Elon Musk pushed Trump to make a big deal out of welcoming these refugees from his home country But I also don't see any reason to be coy here. The most visible difference is that they are white. Trump's administration drinks from an information stream where commentators profess that whites are now the most persecuted group in America, an increasingly common viewpoint. And there is plenty of reason to think that those commentators see themselves in the Afrikaners more than anything else. Of course, a kind of racism and xenophobia is also laden in the belief that Afrikaners are more deserving of our welcome than other refugees. You'd have a hard time making the case that they are in a more dire situation than the Afghans Venezuelan refugees. But as I said yesterday when discussing Trump's drug pricing order, Trump's occasional ideological fluidity can be disorienting, and Democrats should be careful with how they respond politically. Describing policies as emblematically racist or white supremacist is an exhausted tactic, and it reaches very few people outside the most devoted liberals. And of course, the Trump administration has also extended the same antagonistic posture it's had toward migrants from the global south to Ukrainian refugees, an almost entirely white group, which muddies any claims of racism. However, the administration is inconsistent in its application of a principle it claims is of the utmost importance, which is anti Semitism. It turns out that at least one of our newly adopted residents from South Africa has a penchant for posting online about how much he hates the Jews. His words and views are far more serious than the sins of the students Secretary of State Marco Rubio has been trying to deport. Yet the administration remains silent. Just the slightest degree of consistency here across the board would be a nice thing to see after all this learning and discussion and nuance. Though my position is still pretty similar to where it was yesterday. I think we should warmly welcome well vetted refugees from all across the globe. Ukrainians, Venezuelans, Haitians, Afghans, and yes, Afrikaners. People who flee to the US for safe harbor are most likely to truly love and appreciate what we offer as a country. That's common sense to me. Regardless of where they come from, refugees will ultimately have a kind of loyalty to the US that is hard for any native born citizen to appreciate. People take it for granted now, but we are actually very good at integrating and assimilating disparate groups. The US is incredibly tolerant compared to other nations, and refugees tend to do well here economically and socially over time. That doesn't mean we let everyone in. It's just to say that we should not discriminate whom we accept based on where they come from. All refugees should have their claims heard and a standard of vetting equally applied to them. We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [27:43]
Paige Desorbo
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- [28:30]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [28:47]
John Law
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- [29:08]
Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for my take. Which brings us to your questions answered. This one is from Nancy in Berlin, Washington. Nancy said, I'm curious to know what the Tangle staff feels about the House Ways and Means Committee meeting held on May 14, 2025. I hope you guys do some follow up on it. Thanks. Okay, so Nancy, great question. Like many people and I assume you we found out about the Energy and Commerce Committee meeting from a viral Ken Clipp Tweet that showed 71 year old representative Debbie Dingell, the Democrat from Michigan, falling asleep in the hearing room. And also like many people, our initial reaction was frustration. Our Congress is too old. They aren't taking their jobs seriously. This is unacceptable and without context. I think that's a pretty reasonable reaction. With additional context, however, the situation becomes a lot more nuanced. Ways and Means, it turns out, was at the tail end of a marathon voting session, having just pulled an all nighter. Dingell was not the only one who was feeling fatigued. Representative Blake Moore, the Republican from Utah at just 44 years old, also fell asleep during a separate overnight Ways and Means Committee meeting. If there's anything to criticize here, it's how Congress relies on these kinds of stamina testing voting sessions to pass legislation. The root issue here isn't that our Congress is too old or too lazy, it's that it's too partisan. It can't pass bills without horse trading and putting everything it's trying to do into one package. We applauded House Speaker Mike Johnson, the Republican from Louisiana, for initially proposing breaking the spending bill into smaller bills after he took his position and hope that in some far off future that might become a reality and prevent some embarrassing moments like what we saw yesterday. All right, that is it for your questions answered. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the podcast and you'll be hearing from a couple members of the team tomorrow in our Listener mailbag. So so look forward to that. And don't forget to write in with your questions staffetangle.com or fill out the form. We'll see you then. Peace.
- [31:11]
Michelle Bernstein
Thanks, Isaac. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. According to new data from the World Travel and Tourism Council, the United States is the only country out of 184 global economies projected to lose tourism dollars in 2025. The estimates show the U.S. losing $12.5 billion in travel revenue on the year, a visitor spending decline of roughly 7% year over year. The issue is multifaceted. The US was slower than other countries to roll back pandemic travel restrictions, and the recent strength of the dollar has priced out some potential tourists. However, tourism data from March also shows a steep drop in arrivals for some of the United States largest visitor populations, including the uk, Germany, South Korea, Spain, Ireland and the Dominican Repub Republic, suggesting the Trump administration's policies and international posture are also having an effect. Travel from Canada and Mexico, the largest source of inbound visitors to the United States, is also down approximately 20% year over year. Bloomberg has this story and there's a link in today's episode Description all right, next up is our number section. The approximate population of South Africa is 64.7 million. The approximate number of Afrikaners in South Africa is 2.7 million. The year South Africa's apartheid period formally ended was 1992, following a referendum vote to end minority rule. The number of farm attacks in South Africa in 2022 and 2023, respectively, was 339 and 296, according to Afraforum. The number of farm murders in South Africa in 2022 and 2023,respectively, was 50 and 49. The number of refugees admitted to the United States in 2025 is 37,000, according to state Department data. The remaining number of refugee admission slots for 2025 is 88,000, and the approximate number of inquiries received by the State Department about the Africana Refugee resettlement program is 8,000. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. In 1969, the federal government labeled Chattanooga, Tennessee as the worst city in the nation for particulate air pollution. Five decades later, Chattanooga has become the first city in North America and the third in the world to be named a National Park City. To achieve the status, a city must meet a list of criteria that make it greener, healthier and and wilder, as determined by the nonprofit National Park City Foundation. The outdoors is our competitive advantage. It's at the heart of our story of revitalization and it's core to our identity. Mayor Tim Kelly said Nice News has this story and there's a link in today's episode Description all right everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to retangle.com, where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. In tomorrow's Friday edition, we're going to be catching up on a pile of reader questions in a mailbag edition. As usual, this is part of our members only content, so to get it you do need to sign up for one of our paid subscriptions. Isaac, Ari and Camille will be here for the Sunday podcast and I will return on Monday. For the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have an absolutely wonderful weekend. Peace.
- [34:36]
Isaac Saul
Our Executive Editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our Executive producer is is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will Kbach and Associate Editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead, Bailey Saul, Lindsay Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@retangle.com.
- [35:14]
Michelle Bernstein
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- [35:29]
John Law
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- [35:59]
Paige Desorbo
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