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Isaac Saul
From executive producer Isaac.
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Saul this is T.
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Will Kbach
Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and a little bit of our take. I'm your host Editor Will Kbach and today we're going to be talking about President Trump's first immigration orders. What has he done? What do the actions say? What is the sweep of them and what might their impact be? It's a topic that pulls in a lot of issues and it touches a lot of issues in our society. So we're going to unpack it as best we can. We're going to talk about what signals Trump is sending specifically and how these orders might look once they're actually put into place. Big discussion. Looking forward to getting into it. But before we do, I'm going to pass it over to John for our quick hits and today's main topic, and then I'll be back for my take.
- [03:22]
Isaac Saul
Thanks, Will, and welcome everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, a federal judge issued a temporary stay on the Trump administration's directive to pause federal loans, grants and other financial assistance, ruling that the government cannot hold funds that were already slated to be dispersed while the stay is in place. The judge scheduled a hearing to determine next steps for Monday. Separately, the White House issued a memo offering to pay federal workers who do not want to return to the office through September if they agree to resign by February 6th. Number two, the Senate confirmed former Representative Sean Duffy as Transportation secretary by a vote of 77 to 22. Number three, President Donald Trump signed an executive order restricting access to medical treatments for transgender children and teens, directing the Department of Health and Human Services and other federal agencies to cut funding to hospitals and medical schools that provide these treatments. Number four, Senator Gary Peters, the Democrat from Michigan, said he would not seek re election in 2026, stating his desire to allow a new generation of leadership to take power. And number five, the State Department advised US Nationals to leave the Democratic Republic of Congo following a series of attacks by protesters on several foreign embassies and a United nations building in the capital of Kinshasa. The protests have been driven by anger over a perceived lack of support from Congo's allies amid its ongoing conflic with Rwandan backed rebels.
- [05:03]
Shopify
President Donald Trump's promised immigration crackdown is underway this morning with ICE agents arresting hundreds of undocumented immigrants in several major cities across the country.
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Will Kbach
The first of 1500 active duty US troops deployed by President Trump arriving at an army airfield in El Paso, Texas, to help boost border security. Trump's borders are promising More big changes are coming.
- [05:31]
Isaac Saul
Since taking office, President Donald Trump has issued a series of executive orders on immigration, which the White House says is part of its efforts to establish firmer control over the southern U.S. border. Many of the actions are targeted at unauthorized migrants, but others have restricted legal immigration pathways, including orders to indefinitely pause the US Refugee admissions program and parole programs and shut down the CBP1 app for asylum seekers on his first day back in office, President Trump suspended the US Refugee admissions program until further entry into the United States of refugees aligned with the interests of the United States, with exceptions for case by case refugee admissions determined by the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Homeland Security. The secretaries will also produce a report on whether resuming the program is in the United states interest within 90 days of the order. In concert with the order, the administration directed refugee resettlement agencies to stop using federal funds to integrate refugees, prompting questions over whether refugees already in the country will lose access to existing services. Separately, officials were instructed to halt immigration parole programs, which allowed non citizens temporary legal status, usually on humanitarian grounds. The directive ends the Uniting for Ukraine policy for Ukrainians fleeing war who are sponsored by American citizens, as well as other programs for Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans and Venezuelans. Additionally, it instructs officials to not renew the parole status of Afghans brought to the US following the military's withdrawal in 2021. On Thursday, the New York Times reported that the Trump administration also authorized Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials to deport migrants who had been allowed into the country temporarily under Biden era programs. Lastly, Trump shut down the CBP1 app, which had been expanded during the Biden administration to allow migrants seeking asylum to schedule appointments with immigration officials prior to their arriving at the southern border. A notice added to the Service's website on January 20th states that the app is no longer available and existing appointments have been canceled. Today we'll explore reactions from the left and the right to Trump's immigration orders. Then editor Will Kbach will give his take.
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Foreign.
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- [09:28]
Isaac Saul
All right, first up, let's start with what the left is saying. The left criticizes the orders, suggesting they improperly target legal immigrants. Some say the orders will likely make the situation and the border worse. Others argue the actions are founded on false premises about immigration. In the Washington Post, Katherine Rampel said Trump is not just going after foreigners who break the law. Donald Trump promised to crack down on illegal immigration avow many Americans support, but so far his administration has been much more fixated on punishing legal immigrants, rampell wrote. The president and his supporters rebut accusations of xenophobia by claiming they have nothing against immigrants per se they merely want immigrants to wait their turn and come to America the right way. But this rhetoric is at odds with Trump's record in his first term. He had almost no effect on illegal immigration levels, but he did manage to demolish legal immigration levels. This week, Trump suspended the entire refugee system and canceled flights of refugees already cleared and scheduled to come here. Among Those stranded are 1,700 Afghans, including those who helped American military efforts, or our family of active duty US Military personnel, rampel said. Meanwhile, Trump canceled interviews for asylum seekers who have been waiting in Mexico for months to come into the United States legally through ports of entry. Shutting down these legal, orderly routes for immigrating to America not only betrays the people who waited patiently and followed our laws, it also incentivizes more illegal immigration, since desperate people fleeing war and persecution will still find ways to come. In foreign policy, Edward Alden argued Trump's immigration orders will bring chaos to the border. US President Donald Trump took office this week and inherited the most secure southern border in decades, with recorded illegal crossings plummeting over the past year despite a strong US Economy that continues to be a magnet for foreign workers, alden wrote. So what did Trump do on Day one? He declared a national emergency at the southern border and ripped up most of the Biden administration initiatives that had brought it under control. Amid a slew of executive actions on Trump's first day, those on immigration stand out. The new president's approach will bring back the very crisis that he claims he was elected to resolve. If the deterrence fences, walls, technology, border patrol agents, legal bars on asylum claims are sufficiently harsh and widespread, then illegal crossings can be halted, the thinking goes. But there is nothing in the history of US Border control efforts to suggest that such an approach will be effective, alden said. Trump's first term was revelatory. Despite the president implementing harsher border measures, including separating children from their parents, illegal crossings surged in the strong economy of 2019, exceeding the numbers of any year of the preceding Obama administration. It was only with the start of the COVID 19 pandemic in 2020, which brought border closures and spiking unemployment, that illegal crossings again dropped significantly. In the New Yorker, Jonathan Blitzer wrote about the unchecked authority of Trump's immigration orders. A central theme of all of Trump's immigration orders is recasting migration as a form of invasion. As a piece of political rhetoric, the word has become numbingly histrionic. But as a legal notion in the world of these executive orders, it triggers a response that goes far beyond the president's already broad powers to manage immigration, Blitzer said. Both Trump and President Joe Biden have sought to bar entry to asylum seekers through an expansive reading of the Immigration and Nationality act, which is the main statute covering federal immigration law. These new orders aim to cast aside the INA and allow Trump to seek recourse in the Constitution. As a president defending his country from a foreign threat, many of these orders reinforce the fiction that mass migration constitutes some kind of war. At the moment, following months of sharply declining numbers of migrants at the border, the government is arresting fewer people than it did in the final months of Trump's first term, blitzer wrote. Even in late 2023, when there was a legitimate crisis with 250,000 people apprehended by Border Patrol in the month of December alone, the idea that the country was in the midst of a hostile foreign takeover would have been absurd. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying. Which brings us to what the right is saying. The right mostly supports the orders, noting that they align with Trump's campaign promises. Some say the message sent by the orders will amplify their impact. Others say congressional action is needed to build on Trump's start. In the New York Post, Andrew Arthur explored how Trump's border orders are reversing the migrant crisis. President Trump identified immigration as the issue that put him over the top in the 2024 election, and now he's moving quickly to fulfill his promises, taking a slew of actions to recalibrate our immigration system, arthur wrote. While foes and friends have focused on directives to end birthright citizenship and designate foreign drug cartels and criminal gangs as terrorist organizations, Trump's other immigration initiatives will be much more impactful, at least in the short term. Trump issued a proclamation suspending illegal entries outside the ports of entry that will, once implemented, restrict illegal migrants ability to apply for asylum in an effort to protect states from criminal aliens and preserve limited public resources. A separate Trump executive order resumes construction of the federal border wall system, Arthur said. Trump has also vowed to make America safe again by reinstating Remain in Mexico, a program started in his first term that sent illegal entrants back across the border to await their asylum hearings in less than 48 hours. The second Trump administration established a roadmap that will bring security and sense back to our immigration system. In the Daily Caller, John Loftus suggested the optics of Trump's orders are just as important as the numbers themselves. The actions taken to shore up border security are all impressive. So too the numbers. But the optics of Trump's border blitz are just as important, if not more. Under President Joe Biden's administration, Americans were increasingly alarmed over the prospect of increased crime rates, drugs, potential terrorism and a heavier taxpayer burden stemming from illegal immigration, loftus wrote. Democrat or Republican, liberal or conservative, Americans want to feel safe in their own country, their own city and their own neighborhood. Unfortunately, though, Americans have grown accustomed to fear and paranoia in 2025. Why? Because illegal immigration and lawlessness have eroded trust, Loftus said. Trump's optics on the immigration crisis are but a small, crucial step toward restoring trust throughout America and trust in government, which has cratered in recent decades. They will also act as a deterrent. Border encounters are already dropping just weeks into the Trump administration, and illegal aliens currently residing in the United States are reportedly hiding in fear. Next ICE raid. If the raids are to continue long into 2025, those numbers will only further decrease. In Newsweek, Sean Spicer wrote, executive orders are a good start, but we need lasting immigration reform. On day one, Trump kept his campaign promises. He signed a series of executive orders that addressed the border crisis head on. These moves sent a clear message. This administration is serious about securing the borders, spitzer said. But while executive orders make headlines, it's also time for my fellow Republicans to deliver the long term solutions Americans deserve that future presidents can't unravel with the stroke of a pen. The truth is, our immigration system is outdated, insufficient and overburdened. It demands a comprehensive legislative overhaul, and Congress needs to step up to the plate. One of the biggest hurdles we face is staffing. U.S. customs and Border Patrol has been under resourced and overworked for years. Despite the growing number of encounters with noncitizens at the border, CBP has struggled to meet its staffing goals, spicer wrote. Then there's the issue of backlogs. Right now, nearly 4 million immigration cases are stuck in limbo. The backlog has doubled over the past decade, and the system is grinding to a halt. President Trump has the mandate and the opportunity to lead. It's time for Congress to get to work and pass a comprehensive solution that secures our borders, streamlines the process, and restores faith in our government's ability to manage immigration effectively. Alright, let's head over to Will for his take.
- [18:27]
Will Kbach
Alright, that is it for what the left and right are saying. Which brings us to my take. Reminder this is Editor Will Kbach, and I authored Today's My Take. President Trump campaigned in no uncertain terms on what he would do if reelected, and he started his term clearly intending to follow through on those promises. A historic volume of executive orders on Day one sent a clear message to Congress, the courts and voters I'm ready. Are you? This is clearest with immigration. Trump didn't just campaign on mass deportations. He linked immigration to every societal ill, housing shortages, crime, loss of community, and more. An increasing number of Americans seemed to agree with him. A June 2024 Gallup poll found that the percentage of Americans who want lower levels of Immigration has increased 27 points since 2020, and all party groups Republicans, independents, Democrats have notably shifted toward favoring decreased immigration between just 2023 and 2024. Furthermore, a recent Axios Ipsos poll found that 66% of Americans support deporting all unauthorized immigrants, though I should say that that support does drop in the poll when certain mechanisms to conduct those deportations are described. Before the election, poll after poll showed that voters ranked immigration as a top concern and were dissatisfied with Democrats handling of the issue or they saw Trump as the better leader to address it. Whether or not Trump's victory qualifies as a mandate, it's clear that much of his electoral win is due to his stance on immigration, and right now he's simply following through on his campaign promises. Trump is seeking to change the idea that immigration strengthens the country, to challenge the belief that we should be a safe haven for people fleeing persecution, and to move progressive slogans like no human being is illegal out of the Mainstream. Vice President J.D. vance summed up this attitude in an interview with CBS News on Saturday when he said, just because we were founded by immigrants doesn't mean that 240 years later, we have to have the dumbest immigration policy in the world. Now, the scale of the Trump administration's executive orders on immigration suspending refugees, ending humanitarian parole programs, shutting down asylum claims, carrying out mass deportations. These all send this message loud and clear. The US Wants less immigration of all kinds. If you are someone thinking of coming to the US to seek economic opportunity, the Trump administration is telling you not to come. If you are fleeing a war torn country, seek refuge elsewhere. If you came to the US through pathways provided by the Biden administration, your legal status is no longer recognized. This may sound harsh, but again, Trump is doing exactly what he said he would, and those views seem to have a lot of support, which makes his actions fundamentally democratic. To win on immigration in the future, Trump's opponents are going to have to convince voters that his approach hurts the country's interests, not just that they are cruel or immoral. Of course, popularity doesn't make a policy legal. Trump's first administration advanced similar views on immigration, but was largely unprepared for the legal pushback it received. This time around, they are clearly more prepared, with White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller orchestrating a Flood the Zone strategy on executive orders to overwhelm Trump's opponents. That's working politically so far, but as the legal challenges come in, many of these orders may not stand up to legal scrutiny. One federal judge has already blocked Trump's order on birthright citizenship, and any effort to permanently suspend asylum applications and stop accepting refugees has to get around the protections for these groups codified in the Refugee act of 1980. And although the Trump transition team did much more legwork this time around, using a team of lawyers from outside the Justice Department to vet its Day one executive orders on immigration, that preparation is probably not enough. Those non governmental lawyers probably worked backward from their desired conclusions in approving those actions, but a federal judge might not see it the same way. However, we shouldn't assume that any of Trump's orders, even the most drastic ones, will be struck down. For instance, his order suspending the US Refugee admissions program requires the Secretaries of Homeland Security and State to submit a report after 90 days on whether resumption of entry of refugees into the United States under that program would be in the country's interests. If Kristi Noem and Marco Rubio simply say that resuming the program is not in America's interest, and accordingly, Trump decides to maintain the pause indefinitely. The courts could plausibly find that process legal, especially as more Trump appointees are confirmed to the federal bench. Now, the law is one thing, but practical implications are another, and we're already seeing some signs that the deterrence message coming from the White House is landing with other countries. Mexico, Guatemala, Colombia and others are all preparing to receive an influx of deportees from the US Right now, however, I'm skeptical that these reforms will bring order to our immigration system and thus the southern border at large, especially with Trump shutting down a tool that Biden used to help with exactly that the CBP1 app. When the Biden administration announced the app's expansion to schedule asylum appointments in January 2023, encounters at the southern border were on their way to record highs. And while the app dealt with some rollout issues, and we certainly can't say definitively that it was successful, encounters did fall sharply to levels similar to Trump's first term by January 2024, and they have remained that low ever since. The app, in concert with much tougher rules imposed by Biden for unauthorized immigrants claiming asylum at the border, clearly shifted incentives from migrants towards pursuing legal pathways. And now that CBP1 is shut down, I'll be watching to see if more migrants risk illegal crossings again, and accordingly, border encounters start to rise. For me, this boils down to two basic questions, starting with which matters more careful policy or vocal deterrence? I think many people experiencing hardship in places like Venezuela or Haiti would still take the risk to come to the US Citizens of these countries live in constant fear of violence at the hands of gangs or the government, and their economic outlook is increasingly dire. A hostile attitude toward immigrants from the U.S. government Still pales in comparison to what these people are experiencing at home, and I don't think Trump's orders meaningfully change their calculus, at least yet. Second, will Trump's views on immigration remain popular as voters see them rolled out? I think many voters may rethink their stance once they see that it means rejecting Ukrainian refugees fleeing the war who already have financial sponsors set up in the US or people like Tani Adewumi, who we featured in Monday's have a Nice Day story, who fled Boko Haram in Nigeria and is now a chess prodigy representing America on the world stage. Trump has earned the right to take that risk if he wants to, but his popularity on this issue is certainly not set in stone. Ultimately, immigration policy involves navigating many factors that are out of our immediate control, and any long term solutions should be multifaceted and probably require Congress to act. Trump is trying to slam every immigration door at once, but I'm skeptical that he can keep all of those doors shut on his own.
- [26:10]
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- [26:16]
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- [27:43]
Will Kbach
All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered. Today's question is a topical one for our main story, and it comes in from Chris, who asks, I feel like item number two in Monday's Quick Hits, which focused on a dispute between Colombia and the United States on a flight of deportees, could use a little more unpacking and perhaps even a correction. This story follows a pattern where the Trump administration creates a problem, there is pushback, and then they cease causing the problem and claim victory. My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Colombia refused to accept US Military planes because the immigrants would not be treated with dignity, and this was framed by many media outlets on both sides as a capitulation by Colombia. But it was exactly backwards. The US Was the one who backed off in its insistence for transporting the deportees in the way it originally had. Today's response is written by me, Will Kbach. I don't think the item requires a correction, but it's certainly worth unpacking. It's true that Colombia's President Petro framed his decision to reject the military deportation flights by saying that the deportations must be carried out with dignity and respect. However, Secretary of State Marco Rubio also said in a statement that Petro had authorized the flights and provided all needed authorizations, then canceled his authorization when the planes were in the air. CNN reviewed documents that support Rubio's assertion. By all accounts, the White House was surprised by Petro's refusal to accept the flights, so I don't think this was a case of Trump instigating the problem. Also, President Petro's demands for better treatment of deportees weren't actually in response to the flights to Colombia that he turned back, but to conditions on another flight of deportees from the US To Brazil. That flight, aboard a passenger jet, had several issues. A layover in the Amazon, broken air conditioning, some deportees were transported in handcuffs and eventually passengers climbed out through emergency hatches to call for help. Conversely, the Colombian deportees were aboard two US Military planes and those flights have not produced any similar reports that we know of. While the incident could be framed as a win for Petro in the sense that he was able to address his concerns about deportees treatment by offering his presidential plane to transport them, I think this story is much more about how the Trump administration managed to continue its deportation plan unencumbered. To me, the sequence of events is clear. Petro decided to pull authorization for the flights while they were in the air. The planes then came back to the U.S. trump responded with threats and then the same planes went back to Colombia. And that is it for your questions answered. I'm going to send it back over to John for the rest of the podcast and I will talk to you all soon. Have a great day.
- [30:31]
Isaac Saul
Thanks, Will. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. On Tuesday, White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt said the unidentified aerial phenomenon sightings in New Jersey and other east coast states in late 2024 were drones authorized by the Federal Aviation Administration. Many of these drones were also hobbyists, recreational and private individuals that enjoy flying drones, Leavitt said. In time it got worse due to curiosity. This was not the enemy. The White House did not elaborate on how it had reached this conclusion, but the finding supports the determination the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Department of Homeland Security reached in December. National Review has this story and there's a link in today's episode description alright, next up is our numbers section. The percentage of Americans who say they approve of President Donald Trump's approach on immigration is 48% according to a Reuters Ipsos poll released this week. The number of refugees admitted to the United States in fiscal year 2016 was 84,994, according to the Migration Policy Institute. The number of refugees admitted to the United States in fiscal year 2019 is 30,009. The number of refugees admitted to the United States in fiscal year 2024 is 100,034. The percentage of Americans who say taking in civilian refugees from countries where people are trying to escape violence and war should be a policy goal is 72%, according to a September 2022 Pew Research survey. The ratio of asylum applications received to applications granted in the United States in fiscal year 2016 was 9.62 to 1, according to the Justice Department. The ratio of asylum applications received to applications granted in the United States in fiscal year 2019 was 11.49 to 1. The ratio of asylum applications received to applications granted in the United States in fiscal year 2023 was 15.14 to 1 and the percentage of Americans who favor temporarily prohibiting individuals from seeking asylum when the southwest border is overwhelmed is 63%, according to a June 2024 Gallup survey. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. In the fourth quarter of the NFL playoff game between the Baltimore Ravens and Buffalo Bills, Ravens tight end Mark Andrews dropped the ball, literally, in a pivotal opportunity to tie the game, ending the Ravens season in dramatic fashion. Andrews faced a hurl of online criticism and negativity following the game, but Buffalo's fans came to his defense. The Bills Mafia, who have a reputation as some of the most positive fans in the league, created a GoFundMe campaign to raise money for a charity that Andrews supports. That effort has raised over $125,000 in donations to support children with type 1 diabetes. Sunny skies has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. Alright everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to retangle.com and sign up for a membership. You can also go to tangledia.supercast.com to sign up for a premium podcast membership which gets you ad free daily podcasts, Friday editions, Sunday editions, interviews, bonus content and so much more. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Will and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day y'all. Peace.
- [33:59]
Announcer
Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Dean Thomas. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Will K Back Daily Saul and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was made by Magdalena Bokova who is also our social media manager. The music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. And if you're looking for more from Tangle, please go check out our website@readtangle.com that's readtangle.com.
- [34:36]
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Hello nerds. Come listen to the History Nerds United Podcast and let's make history fun again. We interview today's best authors, whether they are established Pulitzer Prize winners or someone debuting their first book. Let us show you that history is not a boring class you took in high school, but a place where the best stories come from. And we don't just cover history. We also love to chat about true crime, biographies, memoirs, and so much more. So head on over to History Nerds United and learn the story behind the story.