Tangle Podcast: Valentine’s Day Special - Isaac and Phoebe Reflect on Big Changes
Host: Isaac Saul
Guest: Phoebe (Isaac’s wife)
Date: February 14, 2026
Episode Overview
In this intimate fourth annual Valentine’s Day special, Isaac sits down with his wife Phoebe for a candid conversation blending personal and professional milestones. The episode explores major life transitions: Phoebe’s first year as a public defender, the complexities of criminal defense work, life as new parents, struggles with work-life balance, and sharing the news of their family’s move out of Philadelphia. Throughout, they reflect on their relationship, career ambitions, and parenthood with humor, honesty, and vulnerability.
Key Topics and Discussion Points
1. Life Chaos and Daily Struggles
- Isaac recaps an especially tough day: Sleep deprivation, work mistakes, sick child, logistical issues, and unexpected complications with a new house purchase.
Notable quote:"I had a horrific day today. There’s no other way to put it." — Isaac [04:14]
- Phoebe's health and voice issues: Ongoing illness since August and a lost voice.
- Omri (their son) sick and fussy: Double ear infection, pink eye, allergic to antibiotics.
- Juggling parenting with professional life: Reflects the real, messy chaos of modern family life.
- Moment of gallows humor:
"In retrospect, it was kind of a bad story. But all these things just piled up." — Isaac [11:50]
2. Phoebe’s Career as a Public Defender
- Introduction to the job: Explains Philly’s Accelerated Misdemeanor Program (AMP) which diverts non-violent misdemeanors into treatment or community service instead of trial or jail.
“It’s an incredible program...someone who would otherwise in any other...district...could get found guilty...are all getting diverted away from that.” — Phoebe [13:11]
- Courtroom chaos: Describes a hectic day juggling over 100 cases and clients in crisis.
- Moral and emotional complexities:
- The human element of representing challenging clients.
- Navigating emotional boundaries and grace under pressure.
- Handling disrespect and crisis, differentiating professional empathy from personal boundaries.
“There's an interesting dynamic of being like just the human interpersonal part of it...I'm dealing with people who are on varying spectrums of whether they treat me well or not.” — Phoebe [18:07]
- Defending the guilty:
- Isaac asks how it feels to defend clients who "did it.”
- Phoebe responds she isn’t fazed, especially for marginalized, low-level offenders.
- Reframes "guilt" in terms of systemic pressures and moral ambiguity.
“I don't care if you're selling weed. I don't care if you're selling heroin. Like, that doesn't impact the way that we prepare for this.” — Phoebe [22:01]
3. Drug Crimes and Systemic Injustice
- Nuances of drug dealing:
- Isaac and Phoebe debate moral responsibility in drug crimes.
- Phoebe shifts blame to systemic forces (e.g., Big Pharma, poverty, lack of opportunities).
- Most clients are struggling to survive, not aspiring kingpins.
“I don't feel that they owe us anything in the same way that I think a pharmaceutical company owes us.” — Phoebe [23:53]
- On client profiles:
- Most are “really sweet guys” making calculated, often desperate choices.
“They're really sweet, like, good...You meet that guy and you're like, I like that guy.” — Phoebe [38:31]
4. The Justice System: Realities and Brokenness
- Firsthand cynicism confirmed:
- Process is slow; bail system keeps poor people incarcerated pre-trial.
- Variation in judges’ decisions has huge impact — essentially a “lottery.”
“If you're the accused, it is just a roll of the dice.” — Isaac [51:36]
- Cash bail debate:
- Both criticize that the poor stay jailed for lacking money.
- Phoebe describes how, despite reforms, high bail requests remain common.
“That person is now sitting in jail on $25,000 bail. That person is not a flight risk.” — Phoebe [44:18]
- On human fallibility:
“The law is a human system...what makes it flawed, but also makes it good.” — Phoebe [51:41]
5. Big News: Family Move
- Announcing their move:
- Leaving Philadelphia for North Jersey after unexpectedly securing a house.
- Mixed feelings: Sadness at leaving community, nervousness, excitement for space and a yard for Omri.
“It's super exciting and sad and lots of mixed feelings.” — Isaac [57:36]
- Phoebe leaving her public defender job: Facing the unknown for the sake of family.
- Reflection on identity as working mom:
- Struggles feeling “not 100%” at either role.
- Hard to pause a newly-formed professional identity.
“It's the first time in my life where I feel like I'm two people...those wants to be a present mother and to be a good attorney feel really, really hard to navigate together right now.” — Phoebe [64:00]
- On career pressure and parenting guilt:
- Phoebe opens up about her self-imposed standards and fear of “failing” at both.
"Can still be the right decision and sad at the same time...feeling the limitations in myself...confirms a lot of negative things I feel about myself." — Phoebe [74:58]
- Isaac’s admiration:
“What you just did is truly insane...Give yourself a little bit of grace.” — Isaac [74:42]
6. Parenting Reflections: Baby Omri
- Cherishing developmental milestones:
- Delight in Omri’s sense of humor, emerging personality, and learning new skills.
“He's funny now...he's making jokes and he laughs.” — Phoebe [87:26]
- Learning in real time:
- Describes the wonder of teaching Omri something (e.g., stairs) and seeing him master it overnight.
“I will teach him something on like a Tuesday night. And then Wednesday morning he'll wake up and he'll know how to do it. It's freaky. It is insane.” — Isaac [90:22]
- Observing language development:
- Omri’s first word “hot,” and applying it to everything forbidden.
“I think it's like things he can't do are hot. Like, I think it's, like, forbidden.” — Phoebe [95:50]
7. Relationship Appreciation and Valentine’s Day Sentiments
- Mutual admiration:
- Isaac shares his pride in Phoebe’s intellect, ambition, and motherhood.
“It looks easy when you do it. You look natural, and, yeah, I respect that a lot.” — Isaac [98:24]
- Phoebe’s tribute to Isaac as a father:
“I feel equally happy for [Omri] and happy for me that, like, he is gonna have a father who is so openly affectionate and effusive with him...A man who's sensitive and thoughtful.” — Phoebe [99:51]
- Endearing bickering:
- Lighthearted joke about problem-solving gender stereotypes.
"No, it's you guys...It's the men folk." — Phoebe [99:02]
- Valentine’s gift: Shared excitement for an upcoming getaway—their first night away from Omri.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On justice and defense:
“You are like the frontline person who's coming to court and saying, prove it.” — Isaac [28:45]
-
On systemic injustice:
“I don't think that that's like a system...that is long term good for the human race...humans should not be locked in cages.” — Isaac [27:32]
-
On career and family crossroads:
“I would never envision a world where I would work this job for six months and then leave without a job lined up. I would never, ever allow that to happen to myself...But I want that for the version of me that's the mom.” — Phoebe [65:55]
-
On parenting awe:
“The human brain is crazy...he just climbed the stairs by himself...When you really watch it and experience it, it is so awe inspiring.” — Isaac [91:00]
-
Valentine's tenderness:
“We laugh a lot with him.” — Phoebe [89:26]
“I love you. I'm really proud of you.” — Isaac [96:59]
“You’re an incredibly sensitive person...Omri and I get to reap the benefit of that.” — Phoebe [99:51]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- [04:00] – Start of personal conversation, Valentine’s tradition
- [06:13] – Isaac’s terrible day rundown
- [12:40] – Phoebe describes her day in court; public defender life
- [13:41] – Explanation of AMP (Accelerated Misdemeanor Program)
- [17:39] – Phoebe reflects on expectation vs. reality as a public defender
- [21:46] – Defending clients she “thinks are guilty”
- [23:53] – Debate on moral responsibility of drug dealers
- [34:23] – Nuanced discussion of poverty and crime
- [40:20] – Systemic flaws: bail, pace of justice, judge dependency
- [57:30] – Announcement: Family moving out of Philly, new house
- [64:00] – Work-life balance, feeling split between motherhood and career
- [87:26] – Favorite things about Omri at this stage (laughter, affection)
- [98:24] – Isaac’s appreciation for Phoebe as a mom and partner
- [99:51] – Phoebe’s tribute to Isaac as a father
- [102:21] – Valentine’s closure, mutual affection
Tone and Style
The episode maintains a candid, conversational, and affectionate tone, balancing humor, exasperation, intellectual debate, and heartfelt moments. Both hosts are unguarded, quick-witted, and willing to challenge each other, but ultimately reveal mutual admiration and care. The discussion is deeply personal but insightful for listeners wrestling with similar themes: justice, parenting, work-life balance, and embracing life’s transitions.
Summary Takeaways
- Valentine’s Day tradition: Phoebe’s honest, insightful guest spots have become an anticipated and beloved tradition.
- Work-life balance: Reflects the real struggles facing young parents, especially ambitious women.
- Justice system: Reveals the ground-level realities and persistent flaws, humanizing both defenders and defendants.
- Moving on: The transition from city life and careers in flux is both daunting and full of hope.
- Love and laughter: Amid big changes, the throughline is support for each other and delight in their growing son.
- Memorable, engaging podcast for listeners seeking authenticity from media figures grappling with real life.
Note: Timestamps reference the full episode after advertisements and non-content sections are skipped. All quotes are verbatim as spoken.