Week three of the government shutdown.

Summary

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Tangle Podcast: “Week Three of the Government Shutdown”

Date: October 21, 2025
Host: Isaac Saul
Main Theme: Three weeks into the historic full government shutdown, the Tangle team explores political arguments from both left and right, analyzes government dysfunction, and discusses the broader implications for American democracy and daily life.

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Episode Overview

This episode unpacks the longest full government shutdown in U.S. history, now in its third week. Host Isaac Saul, with reporting from John Law and a dissent from Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, provides a platform for viewpoints across the political spectrum as well as his own analysis. Rather than just covering partisan blame, the podcast digs into the unique dynamics of the ongoing standoff, including executive overreach, the real root causes, and the shifting pain points for each party.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Government Shutdown Status and Political Deadlock

• Shutdown Details: As of day 21, the Senate has failed 11 times to advance a House-passed funding measure. The government remains at a standstill with essential services like air traffic control operational, but many federal workers are furloughed or working without pay ([05:06]–[05:28]).
• Political Impasse: House Speaker Mike Johnson blames Democrats, while Democrats criticize aggressive administration layoffs and selective funding freezes targeting blue cities.
• Historic Context: Only the partial shutdown in 2018-2019 (35 days) lasted longer. This is the longest full shutdown on record.

2. Shutdown’s Impact: Agencies, Programs, and Political Maneuvering

• Federal Agency Effects: National Nuclear Security Administration and Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts among hardest hit; Supreme Court closed to the public ([05:06]–[08:16]).
• Move to Cut Workforce: “We want to be very aggressive where we can be in shuttering the bureaucracy, not just the funding.” — Russell Vought, White House Budget Director ([05:28]).
• Targeted Pain: Infrastructure and climate projects in Democratic cities have been frozen or canceled, prompting accusations of political punishment.

3. Views from the Left ([09:55]–[13:55])

• Broader Battle: Many on the left argue Democrats should use the shutdown to push back on Trump’s executive power grabs and government dismantling.
• Expanded Impact: “...for drawing Americans' attention to the de facto Trump shutdown that predates it and that unfortunately will outlast it.” — Jackie Collins, LA Times ([12:21]).
• Complex Political Calculus: Democrats aim to preserve ACA (Obamacare) subsidies set to expire, warning millions risk losing health coverage.
• Trump’s Unorthodox Moves: The president is using executive authority to keep select programs alive, daring Democrats to challenge the legality.

Notable Quotes (Left)

• “This is just a fight about a looming health care cliff, using the leverage of needing Democratic votes… to demand that Republicans avert a crisis of millions… losing their insurance.”
  — David Dayen, American Prospect ([10:20])
• “Trump has been dismantling many of the government’s domestic programs for nine months with an abandon that disregards federal laws and the Constitution’s separation of powers…”
  — Jackie Collins, LA Times ([11:08])
• “The White House is essentially daring Democrats to sue, in which case they would be responsible for the lack of military payments. But Democrats aren’t taking the bait.”
  — Matthew Iglesias, Bloomberg ([12:53])

4. Views from the Right ([13:55]–[16:55])

• Democratic Strategy Called a “Losing Proposition”: GOP voices urge holding the line against ACA subsidy extensions; argue shutdown is revealing “excess” government for possible permanent cuts.
• Efficiency Audit Analogy: “Close the whole thing down and see what breaks. This is what Elon Musk did at Twitter... restore only what proved necessary.” — Daniel Huff, Wall Street Journal ([16:27])
• Rejection of “Wokeism”: Arguments urge Democrats to drop focus on identity politics and instead return to centrism and economic growth.
• Fiscal Responsibility Framing: Republicans claim Democrats’ approach to healthcare is fiscally reckless and that existing ACA subsidies are “still rather generous.”

Notable Quotes (Right)

• “Most common sense Americans understand that there is no reason paying America’s warriors should be held hostage to arcane debates over housing policy.”
  — Josh Hamer, Newsweek ([14:47])
• “Each funding impasse has collectively produced the world’s largest organizational efficiency study.”
  — Daniel Huff, WSJ ([16:50])

5. Isaac Saul’s Take ([17:55]–[25:41])

• Absence of Central Issue: Unlike previous shutdowns, this one is not defined by a singular dispute (e.g., border wall, ACA itself, or Medicare cuts). Instead, it’s about “power,” “governing by breaking it,” and distract-and-divide strategies.
• Root Cause: The shutdown is a symptom of unsustainable government spending—expanded, pandemic-funded programs promised as “temporary” that voters expect to persist, with neither side willing to pay for them.
• Unorthodox Executive Actions: Trump’s moves to keep military and select programs funded during the shutdown (via questionable legality) may dull public outrage.
• Political Pain Points:
  • For Democrats: Public disruption (e.g., Thanksgiving airport chaos) could force compromise.
  • For Republicans/Trump: Pain already felt by farmers, military, but selective funding tries to blunt backlash.
• Deadlock Outlook: “Truthfully, my best guess is we see little to no movement until the problems become untenable for the public... nightmarish travel delays, disappearing food stamps, impossibly long waits…” ([24:30]).
• Blame Distribution: Recent polling shows 39% of adults blame Trump/GOP, 33% Democrats, 20% both ([31:15]).

Notable Quotes (Isaac Saul)

• “Nobody seems interested in actually reopening the government. There are no urgent meetings… Congress is not even convening to find a solution.” ([18:41])
• “We are $37.9 trillion in debt, no plan to pay for the most popular, important or expensive government programs, and nothing to do but try to distract voters into hating the other side on fabricated or irrelevant grounds.” ([21:30])
• “They’re displaying a sort of ‘governing by breaking it’ attitude first adopted by Trump but now taken up by the party wholesale.” ([24:00])

6. Staff Dissent – Ari Weitzman ([25:41]–[26:50])

• Speaker Mike Johnson’s Role Overlooked:
  • The Speaker is responsible for shepherding appropriations but House dysfunction persists.
  • “Johnson did not invent House dysfunction, but he did say he’d help to resolve it. He decidedly has not.”
• Core Problem: Entrenched inability of the House to pass periodic, manageable funding bills leads to constant all-or-nothing standoffs.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Speaker | Quote | Timestamp | |------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------------| | David Dayen | “...to win the shutdown, Democrats need a big switch in public. This is just a fight about a looming health care cliff…” | 10:20 | | Russell Vought | “We want to be very aggressive where we can be in shuttering the bureaucracy, not just the funding.” | 05:28 | | Jackie Collins | “Even America’s foreign rivals... couldn’t have conceived of a more shockingly self-defeating course...” | 11:08 | | Daniel Huff | “Shutdowns, like Congress, run an experiment it would ordinarily never attempt… Close the whole thing down and see what breaks.” | 16:27 | | Isaac Saul | “Nobody seems interested in actually reopening the government. There are no urgent meetings…” | 18:41 | | Ari Weitzman | “Johnson did not invent House dysfunction, but he did say he’d help to resolve it. He decidedly has not.” | 26:37 |

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Timeline & Timestamps for Key Segments:

• Quick Hits/News Recap: [03:55]–[05:06]
• Shutdown Breakdown – Context & Impacts: [05:06]–[08:16]
• The Left’s Perspective: [09:55]–[13:55]
• The Right’s Perspective: [13:55]–[16:55]
• Isaac’s Personal Analysis: [17:55]–[25:41]
• Staff Dissent (Ari Weitzman): [25:41]–[26:50]
• Listener Q&A ('Plenary Authority'): [27:55]–[30:49]
• Numbers & Polling: [31:15]
• Under the Radar story & Closing: [30:49]–[34:01]

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Additional Segments

Listener Q&A: “Plenary Authority” Explained ([27:55]–[30:49])

• Definition of Plenary Authority: Complete, comprehensive, not subject to significant limitation.
• Stephen Miller's Use: President does have broad, but not unlimited, authority to deploy National Guard; Miller’s framing labeled as “dubious.”
• Legal/Political Context: Federal courts have pushed back on blanket applications of this authority.

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Fast Facts & Polling Highlights ([31:15])

• 0 of 12 appropriations bills passed by Congress.
• 89% of EPA employees furloughed; 334,900 Defense employees affected.
• Public Opinion: 39% blame Republicans/Trump; 33% blame Democrats; 20% blame both sides equally.

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Conclusion

Summary: This episode paints the 2025 government shutdown as fundamentally different from past crises—less about a defined issue and more about entrenched dysfunction, unsustainable policy inertia, and political gamesmanship. Both parties are entrenched, with neither side incentivized to find swift resolution, and the only likely catalyst for action is when the public’s tolerance finally breaks.

“We’re barreling toward the longest shutdown in U.S. history… Truthfully, my best guess is we see little to no movement until the problems become untenable for the public.” — Isaac Saul ([24:30])

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Transcript

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[Isaac Saul]

This is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tango Podcast. A place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and a little bit of my take. I'm your host Isaac Saul and on today's episode we're going to be talking about the government shutdown. It's three weeks in, I think at this point, so there's a lot to say, there's a lot going on. Going to share some views from the left and the right and then as Always. My take. Before we jump in though, a quick heads up. We've gotten a lot of people writing in asking us to cover the Young Republicans group Chat controversy. I don't know if we'll get to that in a full newsletter or podcast. It's possible we do it tomorrow. We always have kind of a few topics queued up and some research done and arguments organized. And then we kind of talk as a team and try to decide which way we're gonna go. We did, however, talk about it pretty at length on the Suspension of the Rules podcast. So I wanna let you guys know that just if you scroll back a couple episodes, you'll see the Suspension of the Rules artwork in your podcast. Fe and in that latest episode, Camille, Ari and I talked about the Young Republicans group Chat controversy, among a few other things, including the shutdown. I thought the part of the conversation where we talked about the Young Republicans group chat was maybe the most interesting part of the show. So I highly encourage you to go check it out if you haven't yet. All right, with that, I'm gonna send it over to John for today's main topic and I'll be back for my.

[John Law]

Thanks, Isaac, and welcome everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, a federal Appeals court ruled 2 to 1 that the Trump administration can mobilize and deploy members of the Oregon National Guard to Portland. While a legal challenge to the move proceeds, the court's majority found that the administration was likely to prevail on the merits of its appeal. Number two, construction crews began demolishing a portion of the White House's East Wing as part of a construction project spearheaded by President Trump to build a White House ballroom. Number three, Amazon Web Services said that a sweeping Internet outage originating from its cloud computing data centers was mostly resolved. The outage impacted sites and apps serving millions of users and businesses. Number four, the United States and Australia agreed to a critical minerals and rare earths deal to partner on projects worth up to $8.5 billion in total. And number five, Japan's lower and upper house voted to elect Sanae Takaichi as Prime minister, making her the first female prime minister in the country' history.

[Narrator/News Reporter]

The government shutdown has reached the three week mark officially as we begin day 21 here with still no end in sight. Yesterday, the Senate failed for the 11th time to advance a House passed measure that would fund the government. House Speaker Mike Johnson once again blamed Democrats for prolonging the shutdown, even as he keeps his House lawmakers out of session. That's going on nearly a month now.

[John Law]

On Tuesday, the federal government Shutdown entered its 21st day with Republican and Democratic lawmakers at an impasse over a deal to reopen the government. The shutdown is now the longest full government shutdown in US history. Only the 35 day partial funding lapse in 2018-2019 lasted longer. On Monday, the Senate failed to pass a GOP backed funding bill for the 11th time. For context, on October 1st, federal funding lapsed, halting some government services and suspending pay to many federal employees. The Senate failed to reach the 60 vote threshold required to pass a stopgap funding bill to keep the government open, with Democrats pushing for a permanent extension of temporary Affordable Care act subsidies set to expire at the end of the year. Republicans have maintained that health subsidy negotiations should be held only after the government reopens. We covered the beginning of the shutdown and you can check that out with the link in today's episode. Description Services designated as essential, such as air traffic control and federal law enforcement, remain operational during the shutdown. However, many other government functions have been paused or disrupted, and federal agencies have begun furloughing workers or asking employees to work without immediate pay. On Monday, the National Nuclear Security Administration, which is responsible for overseeing and modernizing the US Nuclear stockpile, announced it would furlough most of its staff. Separately, the Administrative Office of the US Courts said the shutdown would begin to affect its operations this week and the Supreme Court will be closed to the public due to resource limitations. In addition to the furloughs, the Trump administration has sought to lay off thousands of federal workers during the shutdown as part of its ongoing efforts to reduce the size of the government. On Wednesday, White House Budget Director Russell Voets suggested that over 10,000 jobs could be cut, saying, we want to be very aggressive where we can be in shuttering the bureaucracy, not just the funding. However. Also on Wednesday, a federal judge temporarily barred the administration from carrying out planned layoffs, then extended the order to a broader group of unionized federal workers. On Friday, the judge suggested that the Trump administration was firing line level civilian employees during a government shutdown as a way to punish the opposing political party. Separately, vote has paused billions in funding for projects in mostly Democratic led cities, calling them low priority projects that may be canceled outright. The Office of Management and Budget Director has also frozen or canceled infrastructure and climate related projects in major cities, drawing criticism from Democratic lawmakers today. We'll cover the latest on the shutdown with views from the left and the right, and then Isaac's tape.

[Isaac Saul]

We'll be right back after this quick break.

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All right, first up, let's start with what the left is saying. Many on the left contend that Democrats should broaden the shutdown fight to address Trump's abuses of executive power. Some note that the shutdown has accelerated Trump's efforts to cut the federal workforce. Others say the politics of the shutdown are considerably different from past instances. In the American Prospect, David Dayan argued, to win the shutdown, Democrats need a big switch in public. This is just a fight about a looming health care cliff, using the leverage of needing Democratic votes, at least under current Senate rules, to pass government funding to demand that Republicans avert a crisis of millions of people losing their insurance coverage or seeing the price of it double, dayen wrote in private. This is a fight about extreme executive power and autocracy, with Democrats demanding that any government funding they pass must actually be spe spent, not withheld or rescinded. A no kings budget. In other words, if there's a way to switch this out to make the need for no kings, which is quite popular, the primary focal point of the shutdown fight. Democrats have a better chance of getting out of this with something, dayen said. But you don't want to drop the health care conversation entirely. There really is a risk of millions of people losing insurance when enhanced Affordable Care act subsidies expire in December, and people in Republican districts will be disproportionately hurt, raising stakes that White House officials are keenly aware of even if they won't admit it in public. In the Los Angeles Times, Jackie Collins wrote, this is Trump's shutdown, but he's been dismantling the government all year Trump has been dismantling many of the government's domestic programs for nine months with an abandon that disregards federal laws and the Constitution's separation of powers, as numerous lower court judges have found, only to be temporarily checked by the Trump friendly Supreme Court, combs said. Even America's foreign rivals and enemies couldn't have conceived of a more shockingly self defeating course than the one its commander in chief has his nation on targeting education from pre K through postgraduate studies, scientific and medical research, public health and general healthcare, clean energy, community development, and so much more. Yet even Trump and company have had to tacitly admit repeatedly they've gone too far. They've called back some targeted federal employees or sought new hires for the Internal Revenue Service, the National Weather Service and the Center's for Disease Control and Prevention, among others, collins wrote. Democrats are right to demand that Republicans support continued health care subsidies before Democrats vote to reopen the government. But the ongoing shutdown is at least as valuable for drawing Americans attention to the de facto Trump shutdown that predates it and that unfortunately will outlast it. In Bloomberg, Matthew Iglesias explored what makes this shutdown so different. This shutdown has a different dynamic. The public is displeased with both sides behavior, but on balance tends to put slightly more blame on Republicans than Democrats. That means President Donald Trump has strong incentives to minimize the visible pain of the shutdown, Iglesias said. More consequentially, Trump isn't letting a lack of authorized funds stop him from paying the troops or even maintaining the WIC program for pregnant women and young children. The legality of these moves is questionable. The White House is essentially daring Democrats to sue, in which case they would be responsible for the lack of military payments. But Democrats aren't taking the bait. Leaving aside the dubious legality of it all, politically this is not the usual form of pressure found in the shutdown playbook. The senators Trump is hitting by cutting funding to blue states are not the vulnerable frontliners who might be coerced into caving. They're safe seat Democrats whose constituents would rebel if they backed down. Trump, as is often the case, is more interested in punishing his foes than winning an argument, iglesias wrote. For now, there simply isn't meaningful pressure on either the White House or Senate Democrats to cave. The result is a standoff that, unless Republicans choose to resolve it on their own, could persist for a long, long time. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying. Which brings us to what the right is saying. The right says Democrats shutdown strategy is a losing proposition. Some argue Republicans should hold firm on not extending ACA subsidies. Others say the shutdown is revealing parts of the government that should be permanently cut. In Newsweek, Josh Hamer said Democrats still haven't learned any lessons. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer defended his caucus latest vote, opining it's always been unacceptable to Democrats to do the defense bill without other bills that have so many things that are important to the American people in terms of health care, in terms of housing and in terms of safety. But to most Americans, such tendentious, bloviating falls on deaf ears, hammer wrote. Most common sense Americans understand that there is no reason paying America's warriors should be held hostage to arcane debates over housing policy. Democrats seem to be unable to avoid tripping all over themselves. Illegal immigration and gender radicalism are perhaps the two least popular issues right now for Democrats. Yet they are arguably the two issues most at the forefront of the current Beltway standoff, or at least the debate over the scope of taxpayer funding is. Hammer said a rational political party interested in self preservation and electoral success would certainly take a different approach. Such a party would ditch the post 2008 obsession with identity politics and wokeism and revert to the Clinton era message of economic growth and cultural centrism. In USA Today, Das Potus argued Republicans have the perfect chance to stop wasting your money on the aca. Republican leadership remains unwilling to negotiate until the government is reopened. However, there has been some openness within the Republican ranks to extend the Obamacare subsidies for another year, potus wrote. That's something Republicans should refuse. Not only can America not afford to continue subsidizing a failing health care plan, but it is the right political decision as well. It should be an easy choice. Health insurance premiums have skyrocketed since the passage of the Affordable care Act in 2010. This rise in premiums can be chiefly attributed to the flurry of regulations imposed on health insurance companies under the aca. Guaranteed issue and community rating regulations are expensive regulations that have driven up the cost of health care, potus said. Democrats are right that the people will lose health care, but the cost of keeping the enhanced subsidies far outweighs the downside. However, the existing subsidies under the base contents of the aca, which will remain in place regardless of the outcome of this political fight, are still rather generous. In the Wall Street Journal, Daniel Huff wrote Government Shutdown no An efficiency audit since 1981, four major shutdowns have generated data about what government actually needs to function. Furlough rates have ranged from about 15 to 40%. The current 2025 shutdown sits at the low end, suggesting agencies have broadened their understanding of operational minimums, Hough said. Shutdowns, like Congress, run an experiment it would ordinarily never attempt. Close the whole thing down and see what breaks. This is what Elon Musk did at Twitter. He fired 80% of the staff, watched what broke, and restored only what proved necessary. This approach furlough broadly identify failures and restore specific functions, is vastly more efficient than conventional budget cutting. For example, the fiscal 2014 shutdown generated data on which services generated outcry when suspended national parks, which created safety risks, fewer inspections by the Food and Drug Administration, and which caused surprisingly little disruption, hough wrote. Each funding impasse has collectively produced the world's largest organizational efficiency study. Not a simulation or theoretical analysis, but a real world test of which positions government can function without. Alright, let's head over to Isaac for his take.

[Isaac Saul]

All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to my take. So nothing about the shutdown actually feels normal. Perhaps most importantly, there just isn't a real centerpiece issue here. In 2018, the shutdown was about Trump's demand to fund a border wall. In 2013, it was over the Affordable Care Act. In 1995, it was about cuts to Medicare and education being demanded by Newt Gingrich. What is this shutdown about? Democrats want to make it about health care and Affordable Care act subsidies, but the shutdown isn't really about healthcare. It's about power. It's the Ezra Klein argument that Democrats need to stand up and fight back against Trump because funding a government operating the way his government is operating is no longer tenable. Republicans wanted to make the debate about Democrats trying to fund health care for illegal immigrants, but that story is misleading to the point of fabrication. Now Republicans have all but abandoned that argument and pivoted to the idea that they are the party of health care who's trying to reopen the government, while Democrats refuse to. Truthfully, though, Republicans are fine if the government remains shut down because President Trump doesn't care if the government remains shut down. Which brings me to the second odd thing about this standoff. Nobody seems interested in actually reopening the government. There are no urgent meetings between president and the House speaker. Congress is not even convening to find a solution. Democratic politicians feel their base is behind them, even government workers. And why not? The threat of layoffs is not so harrowing, given that Trump clearly doesn't need the pretext of a shutdown to fire people. Instead, he invited Doge and OMB to slash government staff when the government was open. At least now Democrats can tell those government workers and their constituents that they are fighting back. Many Republicans, meanwhile, view the shutdown as a live audit, an opportunity to purge government employees and programs that they see as extraneous. If you're quiet enough, you can hear Russ Vaught rubbing his hands together. Of course, Republicans would be pivoting if it were politically advantageous, but they think they'll win the messaging war the longer the shutdown goes on. And with Trump's bullhorn, they may be right. The third thing that is so odd about this shutdown is that something specific has actually brought us to this point, and almost nobody is talking about it. It isn't Trump being a fascist. It isn't Democrats trying to subsidize healthcare for immigrants here illegally. It's much more mundane. It's that shutdowns are always about funding the government, and our current government funding is totally unsustainable. The Washington Post editorial board is one of the few places I've seen pointing out this dynamic explicitly. Remember, the Affordable Care act, however well intended and popular, is still not affordable for the government. During the pandemic, President Joe Biden and congressional Democrats passed a massive expansion of emergency subsidies to support healthcare programs like the aca. Those emergency subsidies for healthcare, student loan forgiveness, and food stamps were supposed to be temporary, but as is typical, if voters acclimate to a government benefit, that program becomes much harder to cut. This was the traditional conservative these won't be temporary. In this case, they were right. Congress massively expanded its spending during the pandemic without providing a funding mechanism for it and has not undone those expansions. Meanwhile, Trump came into office with a dire fiscal situation that needed to be resolved by some combination of raising taxes or cutting federal costs. Instead, he tried to pass off the job of fiscal responsibility to Doge. But that initiative was a farce that extended maximum pain onto government employees and axed overseas programs for little more than table scraps. The $20 billion Argentina bailout TRUMP just approved cost roughly double the combined savings from all of Doge's cuts, roughly $1.4 billion and Congress's $8 billion in USAID fund funding cut. As we keep saying, in order to seriously cut the budget, the government has to reduce spending in Social Security, healthcare and defense. The president hasn't touched the first two, and he continues to approve historically large military spending bills, all while the Pentagon remains incapable of even passing an audit. Then, on the other side of the coin, Trump has extended tax cuts from his first term that were also meant to be temporary. So here we are, $37.9 trillion in debt, no plan to pay for the most popular, important or expensive government programs, and nothing to do but to try to distract voters into hating the other side on fabricated or irrelevant grounds. Frustratingly, infuriatingly, none of that has anything to do with ending this shutdown. For that, we'll have to see when Americans start to really feel pain and who they'll blame it on. Ultimately, Democrats are the ones holding up a funding CR for their demands, and the biggest pain point for Democrats in the past may have been when food assistance programs and health service for seniors started to run dry. Today, though, the Democratic base is wealthy and highly educated. It's a crude political calculation, but this shift may make Democrats more tolerant of these issues than they had been in the past. Conversely, a lot of Republicans are sounding the alarm about this coming cliff and and in a relatively new development, it might be more politically perilous for Republicans if these entitlement checks stop flowing. Instead, the biggest pain point of this shutdown for Democrats may be when the lack of normal operations starts to impact day to day life. Thanksgiving week will be a key test. How chaotic and broken can US Airports get with limited TSA and air traffic control staff? How tolerant will Democrats be of such a public mess when they can reopen the government with a vote at any time? For Trump and Republicans, the biggest pain points are already arriving, but the president is trying to find ways to mitigate them. When military pay was supposed to freeze last week, Trump took unconstitutional read illegal action to keep checks flowing to active duty soldiers. Republican senators described the move as varying degrees of inappropriate, but none seemed eager to take back the power of the purse. Meanwhile, Democrats are unwilling to hold the president accountable for paying military personnel, and in the end I doubt many Americans noticed or cared except for active duty soldiers and their families, whom I presume are quite relieved. The president seems keen to use a similar process to restart loans for struggling farmers who are being hit hard by his tariffs or keep other politically popular programs alive. Basically, the government is shut down, but the party in power is finding emergency funding to make it all a bit less painful for their favored copy constituents. It's anyone's guess what happens now. We're barreling toward the longest shutdown in U.S. history. Republicans have a governing trifecta, but also can't move the ball without Democratic votes and seem keen to sit tight. They're displaying a sort of governing by breaking it attitude first adopted by Trump but now taken up by the party wholesale. Meanwhile, Democrats have the strength of their healthcare argument. Costs go up if nothing is done, but conveniently have no plan to pay for the billions in funding. That fund four years ago was sold to the public as emergency and temporary. Truthfully, my best guess is we see little to no movement until the problems become untenable for the public. It'll take nightmarish travel delays, disappearing food stamps, impossibly long waits to resolve healthcare snafus, and reports of degraded military readiness before anyone comes back to the table. And then, unfortunately, we'll have to wait for Congress to actually agree on something. All right, that is it for my take. Ari Weitzman, our managing editor, has a staff dissent, so I'm going to pass it over to him for that.

[Ari Weitzman]

This is Tango's managing editor, Ari Weitzman, with today's staff dissent. I think Isaac is leaving out one major power player in his discussion over the standoff between Democrats read the Senate and Chuck Schumer and Republicans read President Trump. And that person is House Speaker Mike Johnson. Isaac is right to remind us that funding shutdowns are always about funding. But the person whose job it is to shepherd the appropriations process is the speaker of the House. And when Johnson first took the gavel, he said he'd bring fiscal responsibility to that process. The House still does not issue periodic funding, as Johnson said it would when he took the gavel. And it still can only get one omnibus spending bill that could pass the Senate out any given year. That leaves partisans in a permanent state of fighting over what to remove from a permanently underfunded budget. As I said in my take when we initially covered the government shutdown a couple weeks ago, Johnson did not invent House dysfunction, but he did say he'd help to resolve it. He decidedly has not.

[Isaac Saul]

We'll be right back after this quick break.

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[Isaac Saul]

All right, that is it for my take and a staff dissent, which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Rory in Princeton, New Jersey, who said Stephen Miller said President Trump has plenary authority. What does that mean? Okay, first the definition. According to the Legal Information Institute at Cornell Law School, plenary authority means power that is complete, comprehensive, and not subject to significant limitation. As for the comment, Stephen Miller, the White House deputy chief of staff who has been responsible for much of President Donald Trump's immigration enforcement policy, recently cited plenary authority to justify the deployment of the National Guard to Los Angeles, Chicago, and Portland. While giving an interview to CNN on Monday, Miller said, under Title 10 of the US Code, the President has plenary authority. Before pausing during the interview, the network said that a technical glitch resulted in audio from a different channel being sent to Miller's earpiece, causing him to pause. When the interview resumed, Miller clarified his point. Under Federal law, Title 10 of the U.S. code, he said, the president has the authority anytime he believes federal resources are insufficient to federalize the National Guard to carry out a mission necessary for public safety. Title 10 is a portion of federal law covering the military. Miller is correct that the Constitution and federal law do give the president authority to deploy troops in the US to respond to an invasion or insurrection or if law enforcement is unable to execute the law without assistance. The president also does have narrow plenary authority power over the number of troops to send on a deployment. However, Miller's argument that the situation in cities justifies the use of this authority is not nearly as straightforward. For context, Miller has been publicly constructing an argument that broad illegal immigration and lawlessness in U.S. cities justifies federal troop deployment. He has laid the groundwork for this argument by referring to illegal immigration as an invasion and more recently describing a confrontation between protesters and ICE agents outside Chicago as domestic terrorism and seditious insurrection. Federal judges have blocked troop deployments to Los Angeles and Chicago under the President and Miller's rationale, but an appeals court just allowed the guards deployment to Portland. So while the president does have meaningful authority over military deployments, Miller's one time and potentially accidental characterization of that authority as plenary is much more dubious. All right, that is it for today's your questions answered. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Don't forget Los Angeles this Friday. Tickets in the episode description if you want to come see us live and in person. There are also some VIP tickets for a meet and greet at the bar at the theater after the show and we hope to see you guys there. Have a good one. Peace.

[John Law]

Thanks Isaac. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. On Saturday, a U.S. military demonstration that involved shooting live fire artillery rounds over Interstate 5 in California dropped metal shrapnel onto a California Highway Patrol Protective Services detail for Vice President J.D. vance. The CHP said that the shrapnel was from an explosive ordinance that detonated prematurely and some of it struck a CHP patrol vehicle and motorcycle. No one was injured and the Marines stopped firing additional live round ordinances over the highway after they were notified of the incident. But California Governor Gavin Newsom criticized the Trump administration for carrying out the exercise without coordinating with the state, calling the decision reckless. The Los Angeles Times has this story and there's a link in today's episode description alright, next up is our numbers section. The number of appropriations bills needed to fund the US government that Congress has passed is 0 out of 12. The approximate amount of federal spending temporarily withheld during the 2018-2019 partial government shutdown was $18 billion. According to CNN, 89% of employees at the Environmental Protection Agency have been furloughed during the current shutdown, the highest share of any Federal Agency. Approximately 334,900 Defense Department employees have been furloughed, the most of any federal agency, According to an October 2025 AP NORC poll 54% of US adults see the government shutdown as a major problem, and 35% of US adults see the government shutdown as a minor problem, 37% of Republicans see the government shutdown as a major problem, and 45% of Republicans see the government shutdown as a minor problem 69% of Democrats see the government shutdown as a major problem, and 28% of Democrats see the government shutdown as a minor problem. According to an October YouGov economist poll, 33% of U.S. adults primarily blame Democrats in Congress for the shutdown, while 39% primarily blamed Donald Trump and Republicans in Congress for the shutdown, and 20% of US adults blame both sides equally for the shutdown. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. Ryan Ramos had an unusual request for the theme of his fifth birthday party, America's 39th president, Jimmy Carter. Ryan first became interested in President Carter when his preschool class celebrated President's Day and 2024, and Ryan's mother has done her best to indulge his interest. Her stories about planning his party, complete with a Carter cake and a cardboard cutout, went viral on TikTok, where they even reached the former president's family, who sent Ryan a personalized goodie package including family recipes and memorabilia from the late president's 100th birthday. WSBTV Atlanta has this story and there's a link in today's episode description all right everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to retangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'.

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[Isaac Saul]

Peace Our Executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our Executive producer is John Loeb. Today Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will Kbach and Associate Editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead Bailey, Saul, Lindsey Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our [e-mail].

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