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- [00:00]
A
Let's bring him into the TVP and ultradome. He's at the New York Times. Mike, how you doing?
- [00:05]
B
Yo, what's up?
- [00:07]
A
Good to see you.
- [00:08]
C
Great to see you. So wait, so what's up? Yeah. So four day work week. Are they living in the future? Yeah.
- [00:15]
A
Is this universal basic vacation days?
- [00:18]
B
It's. Court is incredible in that I got to sleep in till like 9am today, which is. Which was great. But I made up for it because, like, literally every day this week, I've gotten up at five o' clock in the morning to get my cold ass down to the Oakland courthouse and stand outside for two hours. So I don't know, but it's fun.
- [00:38]
C
How does it. How does it work? Who gets priority? Is it first come, first serve? Like, if some random person. If some random person shows up before you, they can just get it and do they.
- [00:48]
A
You're just out.
- [00:49]
C
Or. Or you get to like, show some sort of like, press. Like, how does it work?
- [00:55]
B
Yeah, I wish I was cool enough to like, cut. Well, here's the thing.
- [00:58]
C
You should get an artist pass.
- [01:00]
A
VIP pass.
- [01:01]
C
No, not vip. Artist pass.
- [01:03]
A
It's a level of up. Okay. Artist pass.
- [01:07]
B
So there are 20 reserved seats in the front row for press, but the issue is only one person per outlet gets it. And we are doing like live blogging for like the big moments, like opening statements and for Elon. And so my. Myself and my colleague Cade came on the whole first week and so we've had a trade off. He's gotten the press, skip the line thing. And I've been with the other folks in the 30 unreserved seats in the
- [01:38]
C
back that are watching YouTube videos. Yeah.
- [01:41]
B
Yeah. Oh, my God.
- [01:42]
C
Or stripe sessions.
- [01:44]
B
Literally, one dude fell asleep. I was actually impressed.
- [01:48]
A
Fell asleep?
- [01:50]
C
Yeah, it seemed pretty entertaining. It didn't seem like you were falling asleep. I was keeping up on the. Through the live blog.
- [01:57]
B
Reading my nightmarish Twitter too. I. It's been fun, honestly. Have you guys ever done like, court case things or have you ever been sued or been in court?
- [02:07]
C
Never been in court.
- [02:09]
A
I. I went to mock court in high school where everyone picks a role. I think I was.
- [02:16]
C
Yeah, we larped in court.
- [02:17]
A
Literally larping in high school. But other than that, never.
- [02:21]
B
I.
- [02:21]
C
The whole. This whole time, it seems insane. Like with the recent NASA, the moon mission, I was like, this should be a live stream. Plus a pay per view for the key moments for this trial. It's like we have huge budget deficits and we have these incredible media products why are we not doing pay per views? Right,
- [02:41]
B
but that's the funny thing. I was just going to say that's the funny thing about, like, federal courthouse stuff. Like, there's a lot of different rules around filming and electronics. I covered some cases in D.C. and I can't even bring a laptop or phone in those courthouses. So, like, this is actually a very permissive judge just because she believes in, like, press access and stuff. And we've had way more access than you would normally get in federal court cases.
- [03:09]
A
Okay, so you, you've been to these court cases before, but if I follow your Twitter, it feels like you're making a bunch of rookie mistakes. You only had egg bites at 5:30am Your Bite Energy is wearing off. You forgot your butt pillow. You forgot to fill your water bottle. Like, is this amateur hour? Are you a professional? What's going on?
- [03:29]
B
I think. I think that you guys might know me well enough that that is kind of how I operate most of my life. Kind of chaotic, but it is focused
- [03:39]
C
on the important stuff.
- [03:40]
B
That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, I can file. I may be like, bleeding and hungry, like limping across the finish line, but we're getting. I'm tweeting for you.
- [03:51]
C
What is your. What is your. What are some, like, high profile cases that stand out that you've covered in the past?
- [03:58]
B
So I got to do. Let's see, my first one was insanely boring, but important. The Apple vs Samsung thing back in the day. And like, them suing for Samsung, copying, like literally everything they do. I did Dallas, actually, Zuckerberg, I think maybe one of his first testimonies on the stand when ZeniMax was suing Meta for the Oculus acquisition. Remember that?
- [04:25]
A
Yeah.
- [04:26]
B
Palmerlick. I was in Dallas. That was super fun that I almost got kicked out of the courtroom for tweeting. And then I did the DCFTC meta one and I almost got kicked out of the courtroom again. Actually, I did get get kicked out of the court for wearing the Meta Ray bans. These are not it. But I wore the Meta Ray ban. And then they started put. I was. I was fucking super stupid for doing it. But then they started putting signs up saying, do not wear these glasses.
- [04:54]
C
But you weren't. You were just using them as glasses or you were being sneaky and you were recording.
- [04:59]
B
No, I was like, look, I can't record. I won't record. I was trying to play by the rules. And like, they were. They are my prescription glasses.
- [05:05]
C
Yeah, but the bailiff.
- [05:07]
B
The bailiff Was.
- [05:08]
C
Yeah, it's too much. It's too high risk for them because you could just like, turned off the light or whatever.
- [05:14]
A
Talk about the fans. Are there really Elon Musk fans in the courtroom? Like, what motivates someone to go and watch that live? Is this their UFC front row ticket? Like, why are they there?
- [05:30]
B
So you guys would have fun? Like, it actually is. A lot of court cases are boring to people who don't care about this stuff. Right. Like, you and I may be super into. Like, the FTC trial was super fun for me because it's like, oh, my God. Mark Zuckerberg emailing Sheryl Sandberg and talking about Path. Like, this is incredible. And, like, the average person has no idea what we're talking about, but this is like a circus. There are people who genuinely love Elon or are genuinely worried about the end of the world happening. And I think it's a really good thing that there's public access to these courts. Like, I think, like, the average person can come in and show up. And that's what I think. After the buzz of Twitter and, like, people seeing that this is an event, we got a much longer lines and, like, folks who are local. Like, just, like, I know a PM in tech from Meta that came. I know, like, a guy from Box made it in. Just if you get a seat. If you get there early enough, then you can get a seat and you can just hang out. It's like. And I think it's really great. I think it's great that people are. Yeah. Are there for it. You know, it shouldn't just be me.
- [06:37]
A
Yeah.
- [06:37]
C
What about the. What about the jury? Does the jury seem excited and honored to have the opportunity to be a part of a case like this, or are they nodding off? It'd be so funny to be, like, so out of just, like, off the
- [06:54]
A
Internet to make selection. You can't be super biased,
- [06:59]
C
like, Sam, this guy. Sam and Greg and this guy who makes cars. And I don't even know what they're talking. A bunch of. A whole bunch of mumbo jumbo. Like, there's got to be one person on the jury that was just so not tapped in that. That they're just confused.
- [07:15]
B
I think jury selection was super interesting for that. I can't say it's actually interesting. I can't say too much about the jury right now because, like, there's all these rules about, oh, sure, like, some random person could go up to them if you identify them or try to alter it totally. But I will say like during jury selection on Monday. It is an incredible slice of life and you get like how familiar or unfamiliar people are with the tech industry despite being here. You know, like some folks are like, I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know what AI is. I don't know what AGI stands for. So it really, it really play and voir dire and jury selection is so important for cases like this. Just it makes the dynamic of the facts don't necessarily always matter, but the vibe can really matter, which I think is a benefit for Elon, honestly.
- [08:09]
C
Yeah. Were they. Were they trying to weed out. They're trying to weed out people that are a little bit too excited about the case. Right. You want the people that are like in order to have. But. But then talk. I didn't understand. Why is the jury just like giving like an advisory decision? What is the history of like, why do you. Why do you have a jury when the judge is ultimately going to make the final call? It feels like just kind of putting on like a show. Because like theoretically the judge could just sit through a bunch of depositions and make a call.
- [08:43]
B
Sure. No, I think so. I do think they want more often than not want a jury of these CEOs and company's peers to be the deciding factor in what they feel like is good for a civil claim. Like that I think is fairly standard. But to your point, the judge can throw out their verdict, which is like is. And judges, I don't think tend to want to do that because like they want to have reliance on. This is the public. The public should have a say in what goes or whatever. But the judge can do that. I will say also she is responsible for if they are. If Elon or sorry, if OpenAI is found liable judge decides on remedies, damages and things like that. So she still has an active role in that regard and in steering the case. But I really do think that. So courts often prefer or often appreciate a peer, a jury of your peers making some of these decisions. So I don't think it's going to be like completely disregarded is what I would say.
- [09:50]
A
Yeah.
- [09:51]
C
How has Judge Rogers done so far, in your view? Just reading. Reading the live blog. She seemingly has like zingers. Pretty, pretty like good, like one liners the time. I'm just like kind of imagining what it's like in there because obviously I'm just reading text. But she's had like seemingly like some pretty good comedic timing.
- [10:11]
A
Yeah.
- [10:12]
B
Oh my God, she's so funny. She's like real. Like, as you might imagine, there's like a number of different types of judges and how they handle their court or whatever. And she just takes no BS from anyone, including the lawyers. And like when they try to like tap dance or break the rules or whatever, she's like, no, shut up. Or like get back on track or actually the best part or the most insane part. So one woman in the overflow room who is just not just. It was a civilian going to attend and watch it started recording, which is again against the rules, if not the law, in a federal courthouse. So the judge brings her in and in front of a room of like 100 people, just like dresses her down, yells at her, saying, did you not see any of these signs? What are you doing? I will kick you out. I will. It was like I would have like peed my pants and started crying if she had done that to me. It was deeply, deeply intense.
- [11:13]
A
It's teacher, you know, berating a student.
- [11:16]
C
Yeah, Classes in session.
- [11:18]
A
Classes in session here.
- [11:19]
B
It was brutal.
- [11:22]
A
How have you been processing Elon's positioning? It feels like the two stories that I've heard him sort of telling are one, about his commitment to technology, humanity saving the world through Tesla and the electrification of the internal combustion engine and SpaceX, making humanity multiplanetary. And that's like a very high level, high concept pitch. And then he also sort of brings it down and starts beating this drum on like, you can't steal a charity. You can't steal a charity. Is that the correct framing that he's trying to go like high and low there? How much have he's been beating each of these drums and how useful is that?
- [12:10]
B
So I totally agree. That's the framing. And I think this really goes to the point of a lot of these trials are pageantry is the wrong word, but let's say theater in that you are. This is a jury trial. And it's a different thing than just convincing a judge who I would say is much more attuned to the facts and merit of the case and like hammering in on the evidence and like something that may be boring to you or me or whatever or the jury is going to be more important to a judge. Elon, I think from day one has leaned into the Persona of Elon and just from him being on the stand and saying, I care about humanity. I mean he, he says he does whatever he does or doesn't, but like just leaning into this like, I'm a world changing entrepreneur and this stuff is existential and I'm the one who has cared about it. And like, that may work on a jury. You know, like there are people who still love him and, you know, OpenAI is really hammering the facts of what they feel are their side of the case and saying Elon has known about. Elon has never been in the dark. He quit in a huff. He, he's made it very clear he hasn't been there. He's trying to sue now or he's trying to file this claim now because he's catching up because he's behind as an X AI competitor. But like, again, this is all stuff that maybe it doesn't play. Like this is why jury trials are so risky for companies a lot of the time, you know, it's really, it's fun for me. It's probably not fun for everyone in there, but it's fun to see it play out, if that makes sense.
- [13:43]
C
How did the distillation comments come up?
- [13:47]
B
That was like, that was the news of the day yesterday. You guys obviously were.
- [13:52]
C
Which you broke. You broke it, right?
- [13:54]
B
I think I did, yeah. I think, I think it was one of those things where I was like, holy shit, this is news. And I think like folks like started figuring it out, but I was like, got to put it on Twitter. And so the point, so Bill Sabitt is lead counsel for OpenAI. He was sort of talking about the point was made in the context of they want to hammer home. Elon is creating a competitive product. And also he keeps stressing that this is doom world ending technology, but at the same time he's ripping off the toss and using the technology to improve his own technology in an explicitly for profit company. And so the point is like hammering him as a hypocrite. And I think, look like, I think Elon has history in his businesses. It would not be controversial to say one thing and do the other. And I think he sees it as rules of engagement. That's the game in the, you know, no holds capitalism land. But like that is how it came up and that they didn't go super deep into it, but they wanted to make the point. He's using OpenAI's tech, he's breaking the toss and he's partly distilling it. And I want to say also that Elon went out of his way to say everyone kind of does this. It's like an open secret in the industry, which I think is like also kind of true. But that doesn't make it. There's like, it's, it's fraught I guess is what I would say.
- [15:22]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's a, there's obviously a continuum there, which is why he tried to hammer that. It was like partly. I imagine most car companies have taken a rival car for a spin. Have they taken the car apart? You know, there's a line there and there are laws, but that's a separate issue, of course.
- [15:40]
C
Has, has anything come up with a jury around prediction markets? Because I was thinking we've now seen insider trading across every possible prediction market. Right? From, you know, I'm sure from like very interesting. You know, even, even the Maduro thing was, was, was interesting because a lot of people were like, oh, he's just betting on himself. But then I saw that, I was like, hey, that's sending a signal to the entire world that an attack could be happening, which puts your entire team at risk. Right. So very, very clearly, like US Military personnel should not be able to trade against our own military's actions ever.
- [16:20]
A
Right.
- [16:20]
C
And they need to come down really hard on that. Are you jury a jury on this?
- [16:24]
A
Are you just trading on this crazy? Are you going to retire?
- [16:28]
C
The reason, the reason that the jury thing is, is, is bad is it creates potentially an incentive for the jury to basically work together and say like, hey, like we all have to be here for like a month. Like we could at least make some money on it. And then you only need to get four. You only need to get like four or five of these people.
- [16:48]
A
The chat is saying, monetize jury duty.
- [16:51]
B
Oh my God.
- [16:53]
C
No, but, but, but like it seems like very important that this does not happen. Right. Because, because there's very pot. Like they, they tried to select a jury that just doesn't care about the AI race. They don't care about this or that. And, and, but if they are self interested in some capacity, they could be like, well, my, my decision is not, is not even really legally binding. It's just advisory. Like I may as well, you know, I don't know. Right.
- [17:20]
B
I think that's a great point and like something that I imagine like court systems aren't even prepared for fully yet because like, well, there hasn't been a
- [17:30]
C
big, there hasn't been a big trial. Like there's been, I'm sure some like epic apple stuff that was slightly big. But, but nothing where. Nothing, nothing. Anything at this scale with this much, even just this much volume already from people that are generally interested in, in, in the story.
- [17:50]
B
Yeah, the outcome. And like, I think the other thing you should know is like they're not Sequestered. Like, they show up kind of like, before. Like, anyone else, right before they. Yeah. Like, literally, like, we see them walking in, and the marshals. There's like, a ton of, like, U.S. marshals there. They're like, is anyone a juror in this line? The juror gets to go in. So. And at the end of every day, the judge is, like, goes back over the rules saying, do not discuss this case with anyone. Do not watch it on tv. Do not look at it on your phone, which is like a verbal command. Yeah.
- [18:22]
C
Don't go on your phone, taking your phone.
- [18:23]
B
Just don't exactly.
- [18:25]
C
Hey, don't use the most addictive thing that has ever been created in human history. Don't use the thing that you use for six hours a day that you
- [18:32]
A
probably turn your lights on and adjust your thermostat.
- [18:37]
C
Totally.
- [18:37]
B
I mean, it's something I had not thought of, Jordi, but it's a really good. Like, when does that come up? At some point, you know, like, that's very worried.
- [18:47]
C
Not just seems like.
- [18:48]
B
But just ever.
- [18:49]
C
Yeah, it seems like something that the court should be paying attention to heading into a decision from the jury. How much is the history between OpenAI's counsel, Bill, who represented. He represented Twitter when Elon was trying to get out of the Twitter buyout. And ultimately, it feels like the X slash Twitter acquisition has worked out pretty well for Elon. He's made a number. A number of plays. So hard to. Hard to imagine him, like, you know, deeply regretting buying it, even though at the time he was happy to get out until Bill said, now we're doing this.
- [19:35]
B
You know, it's funny. He is. I can't underscore enough how different the tenor chain. I mean, look, it's like it's opposing counsel, so it's always going to be different. But Elon went from, like, I am a entrepreneur, sort of like Rosalie explaining to you what I think the future should look like and, like, very concerned for the future of the human race to, like, openly antagonistic to Savet's questioning. And, like. And the thing that I'm very curious how this plays with the jury is, like, Elon was very. He's like, I'm a literal guy. Like, the questions you're asking me are, like, too complicated or, like, they're not yes or no questions, which is, like, fair, like, as a grievance. But also the thing he either doesn't understand or doesn't care about understanding is that that's just lawyers. Like, that's the whole Point of a cross examination is to ask these question as. As reductively as possible to. To get a type of answer they're looking for. And his job or his, you know, pre trial sort of discussions with his own lawyers is to know how to navigate those essentially while also telling the truth. So I don't know, they just don't like each other. Or at least Elon doesn't like Sabbat. And you can very. It's very clear that he's just like mad at that. And whenever Elon gets sassy, I would hear like, clearly people who are fans of Musk, like, laughing behind me or being like, yeah, you got him. Like, it's just, it's very, it's very funny. It's like kind of a. It's different than the usual vibe is what I'd say.
- [21:10]
C
That's very interesting outlook. What's going on Monday? What's the outlook?
- [21:16]
A
It feels like this week was the Elon side for the most part. Are we going to flip to Sam and Greg and some other OpenAI folks, or is there an intermediate step? Like, do you have a clear view of what the next couple of weeks look like?
- [21:31]
B
Yeah, so it's a little rough because we, we have witness lists in full that they presented and are in evidence, but they. You don't really learn who's coming until like very soon that week. It's actually a giant pain in the ass for me and for reporters who are trying to schedule. But like, so we. Jared Birchall, who's like Musk's family office guy, just finished testifying. We're gonna get this guy. Stuart Russell. No, sorry, that was yesterday.
- [22:00]
A
And you said Birchall was very dry. Like, was that intentional? That feels like that does not work in favor of like swinging a jury. Was that more for the judge? Like, what was the goal of that, of that testimony?
- [22:13]
B
I think it was to really just sort of show how Musk was trying to set up this like, like structure things as a non nonprofit and like Hammer Home. Like, he's always wanted it to be a nonprofit and he's not sort of like. So it was, it was. I believe it was Musk's witness who OpenAI then cross examined and OpenAI used the occasion to show an email that had like a proposed equity structure for Musk. And so like they both kind of used him differently. But I think like, Bertrand's like a. Essentially an accountant books guy, like behind the scenes. So I think it was like, here's the peek behind the curtain. Here's how they were dealing with the finances. Here's how Musk was like, this is only a charity. And then opening eyes, lawyers were like, actually check this shit out. But I think, like, I honestly don't know. They also struck some of his testimony because this is a little complicated, but if you remember last year, Open Air Musk made a bid with Ari Emanuel and some other companies by the whole company. And that opened the door or that sort of complicates things for Musk's side because there might be some of those discussions around that bid admitted into evidence. And that may not be good for Musk because if there's like weird compromising emails in there. So like it's gotten complicated, but next week we're getting Stuart Russell's safety researcher. We got Greg Brockman, maybe Sam Altman, maybe not. It's four days a week in court only, so we may not have time. But I gotta be ready. I'll be there most of the time, but I'll be there for Sam for sure. And then, I don't know.
- [24:05]
C
Sorry, rewinding a second. Did, did they bid, did they bid on the pvc, like the, the for profit arm?
- [24:13]
B
Yeah, it was the. Yeah. And they, they wanted to just sort of. I, I don't actually know what their plans were afterwards, but like it was like trying to take over the asset, those assets basically, and then, you know, morph it into what they. I mean, and they knew that it wasn't going to get accepted as a bid basically, but it was like. And then Birchall in court was saying this was us trying to sort of establish a pricing mechanism to like value the actual entity itself and that was gonna help them somehow. I actually am not quite sure how that would help them somehow, but someone in the chat is probably smarter than me on that, but like it was them trying to sort of take that over. And I think OpenAI said publicly at the time this is like a stalling tactic. They're trying to like slow us down while also using this in court in this concurrent lawsuit later, basically. So it's all like really messy. And I think even Musk side took a risk there. If those emails get into discovery. But it's unclear to me if that's going to happen. If we, if they are, then we may see them next week.
- [25:26]
C
Why would, why would that, that kind of discovery process around that bid be coming up now when everyone involved was well aware that it had happened quite a long time ago?
- [25:39]
B
So I think because of a line of questioning with Virtual yesterday about the bid that, like, if that happens on the stand. And again, like a lawyer gut checked me here because I'm a stupid tech reporter. But if that happens on the stand, then it gives an entry point for OpenAI's lawyers to be like, okay, well we need to, you know, now admit basically the judge said to Musk's side, you open this line of questioning now, it's fair game to go into this and then you can start calling new evidence in around that, like to open up discovery. It's like really like strategy. And like, you have to be careful in your strategy when you're asking certain questions in court. I've been learning a lot about it. So maybe it's a strategic misstep by Toborough Elon's lawyer, but it's not quite clear yet.
- [26:27]
A
Do you have a idea of the purpose of the AI safety researchers testifying? What the goal is there? Like, does that align with one particular side? Like, if there's more nonprofits, like, you still probably wind up with anthropic DeepMind X. I like, like having one like, you know, more focused nonprofit going on for a long time doesn't necessarily lead me to like, oh, then we wouldn't be in an AI race. Like, it's not a clear solve for me. But I imagine that one side is trying to position this as important. But do you have any predictions for what that goal is?
- [27:05]
B
Totally. So this is Musk's witness and your point is well made, which is like, okay, if. Even if you kneecap one, like, good luck on literally everyone else. And like, there's been a lot of time spent Elon talking smack about Larry Page and how he like, doesn't trust him anymore. That's actually been really fun to hear. But the point I believe is this is actually a point of contention. So the judge does not. The judge prohibited like going too far into like doomerism into the world stuff. And she's like, look, that's kind of a sideshow distraction, like extinction humanity stuff is not the point of this case. But must side called this guy because they want someone. And this my understanding is that Stewart is like very aligned with the idea that AI is super dangerous and going to harm us all. And so if you get that, how does that make that point?
- [27:57]
C
How does that not. Like, if this guy is going to come on and say that AI like the most insane, like doomer point of view, which I think is everyone's going to have their own opinion around this debate we're completely worthy of having and talking about. But how does Elon square that? With like I'm trying to build the biggest cluster possible and you know, distill on the rest of the industry's model and create tens of gigawatts of space compute. And like how does that, does that? Like can't this kind of witness potentially backfire in some capacity?
- [28:44]
B
No, I mean you're, you're, you're exactly right in that. Squaring that circle is pretty hard. And like exactly what.
- [28:52]
C
Okay, I should be, I should be, I, I, I should be trusted with the, you know, all powerful.
- [28:59]
A
We're gonna be in the Terminator situation no matter what. You want me in charge of the Terminators, not some other guy, not some non profit, not some well positioned holders.
- [29:10]
C
He is, he is, he's basically making, he's, he's, he's pivoting Tesla production to Terminators. The Terminators basically.
- [29:18]
A
Optimus.
- [29:19]
B
Yeah, great. No, I, I, and can I just make one last point is that I think he, he misunderstood the Terminator because like we still survive and we fight back in that world. Do you remember this?
- [29:32]
A
I've been saying this. People haven't seen the movie. Jordy actually hasn't seen the Terminator. But in all of these movies.
- [29:37]
B
Are you kidding me, dude?
- [29:40]
A
In, in, in all of these movies, like it completely leaves out that there is a. Humanity overcomes it. And so it's like if there is a Terminator scenario, like I just want to know that you're on my side as the resistance fighting back and like whether the Terminator.
- [29:56]
B
Here you are John Connor, hopefully.
- [29:58]
A
I mean I would, yeah, it's, I don't know, I don't want to get into the full Yuda Koski thing but like, like it is reasonable to sort of steel man that like if it is bad right now, it's not, it's
- [30:11]
C
stat says I have to watch Terminator.
- [30:12]
B
We're not even seeing.
- [30:13]
C
I've got to watch Terminator tonight.
- [30:14]
A
You got to watch Terminator.
- [30:15]
B
Okay, so I just saw this on Twitter. Terminator 2 is coming back into IMAX pretty soon. Like you can go see it in the theater. So you have to go see it Journey. Like it's required doing.
- [30:26]
C
Let's go together.
- [30:27]
B
Yeah, I'm down.
- [30:28]
C
And do you, do you have any. I would say that so far the trial is less. I mean it's hard for the trial to go very viral because there's no audio, video and it's just like live blogging. And you can imagine, you can imagine some of these scenes like, just the stuff that you're typing. I'm like, if that was on video, that gets like 50 million views in, like, you know, in a few hours on. On. On X, you know, across a bunch of these different aggregator accounts. But part is. Is maybe part of, like, my. My feeling is like, it's just so. It's just so, like, I feel like the entire tech industry is like, it's just kind of depressing to see. To see these groups, like, fighting in this way when we have so much bigger problem. Like, we have so many bigger problems as an industry. Right? The big problem being, like, public perception of AI is like, already so bad. Like, people, you know, don't. Don't like, you know,
- [31:30]
A
matter who wins, we all lose or something like that. Like, there's some very negative stuff. Stuff.
- [31:36]
B
I mean, that. So I totally agree. And I do think actually everyone, not everyone, but like, many in the AI industry have started realizing, oh, we have, like, not everyone loves us. Like, this is a perception problem in a lot of way, which, like, to me is funny because, like, I. Not that I'm smart, but I feel like I've known that for a little while and. But it's. The issue is the industry is coming around to that, or at least certain folks are, and know that they want to change that perception. But this case has been in the system for, like, years now and sort of like actually happening at a time where they wouldn't want it to necessarily happen if they're trying to change it. So the timing just sucks, honestly, for folks who don't like that, if that makes sense. Yeah.
- [32:23]
A
There's so many different little tidbits, and I don't know if they're going to be exact quotes, but you can just imagine plenty of things that are going to happen on the stand. Winding up on a Bernie Sanders post and being like, stop it. Pause AI.
- [32:34]
B
Right.
- [32:35]
A
Because it's always give the tech people enough rope to hang themselves. And, like, there's a lot of rope going out the next couple weeks.
- [32:42]
B
Oh, my gosh. It's totally. You gotta. One of y', all, both of y' all should just show up to the courtroom at some point and, like, experience it. Because, I mean, you have an actual day job, but it's like, literally, it's really interesting and like an experience. So you.
- [32:57]
A
You can't record video, you can't record audio. But is there a world where you have, like, five of your own stenographers? There's taking a perfect transcript. Would that be possible with enough resources
- [33:11]
C
and then we could do a table reading on the show.
- [33:13]
A
That's what I'm thinking is that. Is that you could use voice cloning. I don't know if you noticed this, Tyler. What was it? Grok launched voice cloning today or something? Which is. Why is that controversial again?
- [33:24]
B
Well, for, like. I mean, we've had this technology for,
- [33:26]
C
like, five years, and then no one released it because, like, you don't want people to make deepfakes of other people's voices.
- [33:30]
A
Okay. Yeah, because it's, like, textbook. Like, I could.
- [33:32]
C
It's like, oh, I call you John. I need. I need. I need, like, I need 500 bucks. Give me your credit card.
- [33:40]
A
So obviously, there's a bunch of risky uses of that. The good use is the comedic table read in the voice of Sam Altman, in the voice of Greg Brockman, in the voice of Elon Musk that we can all enjoy.
- [33:51]
C
I was thinking more of, like, doing, like, a catching T images, end of the day. Yeah, there's, like, we do a play here.
- [33:58]
A
Yeah, that's probably best.
- [33:59]
B
Oh, my God.
- [34:00]
A
Full makeup, full costume.
- [34:03]
B
So, you know, there are transcription services and even, like, you could do.
- [34:07]
C
You could be Mike Isaac by.
- [34:09]
A
Oh, yeah, we need someone playing you for sure.
- [34:11]
C
No, no, no. It's like. It's a cameo. He's playing.
- [34:15]
A
Oh, he's playing himself. Okay. Nah, I think you gotta go full Nathan Field.
- [34:18]
C
And the whole time just crashing out, like, I forgot my lunch. I forgot to fill up my water.
- [34:25]
A
I had a banana. Are you voting? I had a banana.
- [34:28]
B
Oh, my God. Okay, so can I just say there is an attorney there that looks exactly like Nathan Fielder that I'm like, almost like, are you sure? It's looks like Nathan Fielder? Okay. Every time I see him, I'm like, is this, like, a bit? Like, am I gonna be on TV in some way? It's very intense. And you're gonna ask him next year.
- [34:46]
A
I mean, Elon Musk is the funniest outcomes, the most likely, and that might be it. Seriously, what is the funniest outcome? The funniest outcome is, like, Elon wins, and the penalty is, like. Is, like 50 bucks or something. Yeah, it's like, Elon, like, you win. Here's. Here's $150. Enjoy.
- [35:06]
B
Oh, my God.
- [35:07]
A
Just the most, like, inconsequential fine for the AI industry, which is flush with cash at all times.
- [35:13]
C
Well, I find that, like, fine. Like, there's so many. Anytime a company in tech gets fined or not every time, but often it's
- [35:22]
A
like, sometimes it's a fine for ants.
- [35:23]
C
Yeah. Like, they did something that was bad. They generated 100 million of revenue and the fine is like $1.5 million. Yeah, it's like, did that.
- [35:33]
A
I think the current Meta YouTube lawsuit was like maybe a $10 million settlement. Of course there was like, knock on of potential for class.
- [35:41]
C
Yeah. That was for one. That was for one individual.
- [35:44]
A
One individual. But still it was like you have this like, landmark case, this big build, and then you're like, oh, how, how, how, how damaging is it going to be? It's going to be like five minutes of revenue.
- [35:55]
B
But the stock actually in meta earnings as far, I mean, there was a lot of shit that took the stock down. But like, I think saying, like, this might have a material impact. Like, these cases may have a material impact in the future if it opens the door. So, like, yeah, I agree. Like, it's always. Remedies are always, like, it can be existential from a financial point of view, but also just from a guess what this is about to become your whole fucking life for the next 10 years or whatever. If that makes sense.
- [36:22]
A
Yeah, yeah. We talked to a law professor who said, like, the question is, does social media exist in the future? Like, this is an existential moment. I'm not sure that we're quite there, but there is definitely a risk and you need to consider that if you're an investor.
- [36:38]
B
Totally.
- [36:38]
A
Anyway.
- [36:39]
B
Totally.
- [36:40]
A
What's the game plan for next week? What's going in? Are you doing trail mix? Are you doing protein bars? I want you fueled up, ready to go camelback.
- [36:51]
C
You should be able to do like, a sponsored camelback.
- [36:56]
B
Did you ever watch Jury Dude? The show Jury Dude? Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. I want to be the guy with, like, the chair pants and, like, the water thing attached to my back. And, like, I need. I've got a. This is blogging. This is back in my blogging. All things digital Blog days, man. This is. This is it.
- [37:14]
A
So I will train this weekend more prepared. This weekend.
- [37:17]
B
That's right.
- [37:17]
A
You should go sit in a chair
- [37:19]
B
for eight hours straight. Are you.
- [37:21]
C
Are you gonna do all four days? Are you doing all four days?
- [37:25]
B
I think we're going to switch off a little more. I apologize. I will not be my, like, disastrous falling apart self every day of the week. Just maybe two days of the week. So you should follow Kade Metz, my other colleague who's there. Although he. He is much more put together and does not tweet, like a person off their meds. Like, I do so it'll be a different vibe each day. But I will be there next week.
- [37:48]
A
Last question. Is this book material? Does it rise to that quality, this drama?
- [37:54]
B
I feel like someone's got to write.
- [37:56]
C
I would write a book on your coverage of this trial.
- [37:59]
A
Yes, that's what I want to read.
- [38:02]
B
The.
- [38:02]
A
My God.
- [38:02]
C
And then I would do a podcast about it. I would do a podcast about it, and then someone would make a book about the podcast about the book covering my guy.
- [38:12]
A
We'll create a content ouroboros here.
- [38:15]
B
Keep it going. Someday, I don't know, we'll see.
- [38:17]
A
Anyway, thank you so much.
- [38:19]
C
Great to catch up. Good to see you, Mike.
- [38:21]
A
Thank you.
- [38:22]
C
Thanks for the update.
- [38:23]
A
We'll talk to you soon.
- [38:23]
B
Have a good one. I'll see you soon.
- [38:25]
A
Goodbye.