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- [00:01]
Jordy Hayes
You're watching TBP.
- [00:03]
John Coogan
We nailed that. It is Thursday, December 4, 2025. We are live from the New York Stock Exchange. The real fortress of finance, the capital of capital.
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Jordy Hayes
Our second favorite place to do business.
- [00:14]
John Coogan
Yes. And we have some fantastic news. We have a partnership with the New York Stock Exchange announcing today. Hopefully you've seen it on the timeline. We have a post here from Lynn Martin, president of the New York Stock Exchange.
- [00:26]
Jordy Hayes
Living legend.
- [00:27]
John Coogan
She says a really bright spot for 2025 has been getting to know these guys. That's us. That's us. We're proud to announce today that New York Stock that the New York Stock Exchange is TVPN's exclusive exchange partner covering the IPOs of tomorrow. We are proud to provide the backdrop for their coverage of the next wave of tech driven innovation With Jordy Hayes and John Coogan and the entire team at tvpn. This partnership underscores our commitment to providing the premier platform for companies that shape our future.
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Jordy Hayes
Well said to Lynne. Lynne will be joining in just a little bit.
- [00:58]
John Coogan
Okay, great.
- [00:59]
Jordy Hayes
And yeah, this partnership was probably the most natural made.
- [01:05]
John Coogan
Match made in heaven.
- [01:06]
Jordy Hayes
Match made in heaven. Truly not just saying that. We got together for the first time for the Figma ipo. Got to come back for the Klarna ipo. Two of the more memorable moments from this year. And Lynn and the whole team here are just fantastic. So this will be our home when we are on the east coast. We love it here and we have a super fun show today.
- [01:28]
John Coogan
We do. We do need to tell you about our sponsors. Ramp time is money. Say both easily use corporate cards, bill pay accounting and a whole lot more all in one place.
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Jordy Hayes
That's right.
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John Coogan
There is some news on the timeline. Should we start with Gemini? Yes. And so Ross Hendricks says this is the correct take. He's talking about Gemini winning the AI race and questioning is it bearish for the market as a whole. If you think about it. Which is what efficient market hype said Gemini winning the race is like super bearish for the market if you think about it. And he says Gemini winning ensures zero profitability for any other LLM model. Google will force any other player into an endless sea of red ink by keeping its model free until they bleed out and then it will monetize once its monopoly is secured. That means ain't no one making money on data center capex. Oops.
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Jordy Hayes
What do you take?
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I think it's, it's. It's thought provoking.
- [02:25]
John Coogan
Yes.
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Jordy Hayes
I disagree with a lot of it.
- [02:27]
John Coogan
Yes.
- [02:28]
Jordy Hayes
I think it's it's, it's very real in some sense that we always knew that Google would put an incredible amount of pricing pressure on cash flow, on OpenAI. They have the cash flow again, even in the areas that OpenAI also wants to compete. Consumer electronics science, I'm sure, you know, chips, obviously. So all these areas that not even core to OpenAI's business today. Google's already been investing billions and billions and billions of dollars in these categories for a long time. Overall, this. I'm not convinced that there will be a monopoly in alums. It feels today like we're headed towards like a duopoly at the very least. And you can just easily see that there will be a number of other players making plenty of money. I feel very. I feel very good about Anthropic right now.
- [03:18]
Jim Cramer
Right.
- [03:19]
Jordy Hayes
Anthropic. I thought Dario's commentary yesterday at dealbooks was fantastic. Was. He's really. It was, it was a wild. It was a wild interview because he kept saying, like, I'm not gonna say who I'm talking about.
- [03:31]
John Coogan
It was really wild.
- [03:32]
Jordy Hayes
And then of course, he was talking about. Yeah, obviously talking about. He had some. He had some crazy lines, didn't he? Said he. He was saying that. Basically saying he felt like he literally said the word yolo.
- [03:43]
John Coogan
Oh, really? Yeah, I missed that. But it's very clear that he grew up like, just maybe blocks away from Alex Carp because they have the exact same accent. And it's very jarring when you listen to it because they both talk about AI, but they're very different people in terms of like, the, the ideologies, the types of businesses that they're building. Everything about it is different, except for they sound similar. So you got to put them together at some point. I do have an overall rebuttal, which is my. And my rebuttal is brought to you by Vanta Automate Compliance and Security. AI that powers everything from evidence collection to continuous monitoring and security reviews. So this, my rebuttal to Ross Hendricks here is that Google likes good margins. They grew up with the best margins. It's in their culture that they had 80% margins. And then also there's this constant thing when you're a public company that even if there's the new exciting thing, there's a little bit of the innovator's dilemma, there's the new exciting technology, but if it's not going to monetize as well on day one, then all of your investors, all the public market investors start asking, like, is this going to structurally hurt your business. And this happened with Reels. Remember there was this big question with Instagram like hey, we're moving from the, you know, the image based feed where it's very clear that you can just drop a link to the next thing to Reels. Is that going to monetize as well as the rest of the feed? And the answer was yes, definitely. But it took a while and, and there was like some skittishness there and Meta had to do a lot of work to monetize that. And so I would, I would be surprised if Gemini can hold out on not monetizing forever for like.
- [05:26]
Jordy Hayes
Well they are monetizing. That's the point. Like the pricing. The pricing at least from a consumer standpoint is very similar.
- [05:31]
John Coogan
They could have gone for free.
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Jordy Hayes
Both Gemini and OpenAI offers free student plans or at least a year free but they're charging for the product and it's, and it's, you know, it's comparable pricing. Now obviously Gemini has some cost benefits on the API side, but again certainly not giving it away yet. They did have an interesting announcement yesterday. They introduced Workspace Studio where you can build custom AI agent in minutes to delegate the daily grind, automate daily tasks and focus on the work that matters. That's their writing. So this will integrate with with G suite effectively. So it's like notify me about emails that you're determining are urgent.
- [06:11]
John Coogan
Right.
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Jordy Hayes
And so interested to see here is excited about it.
- [06:15]
John Coogan
He says Google decided to go absolutely ham with the product Velocity. This seems like it lets you build AI agents and automations onto your Google suite. Actually love this will be interesting to see. I'm sure we'll get a lot of threads of people explaining how they're using it will be interesting to see how people wind up using it. Of course. As always our stream is brought to you by restream 1 livestream 30 plus destinations. If you want to multi stream go to restream.com Lisa Su gave her opinion on the Google TPU.
- [06:45]
Jordy Hayes
She broke her silence.
- [06:46]
John Coogan
She broke her silence. She responded.
- [06:48]
Jim Cramer
She.
- [06:49]
John Coogan
She fires back shots.
- [06:50]
Jordy Hayes
Fired shots.
- [06:51]
John Coogan
She said the UBS conference and she says Google has done a good job with the TPU architecture over the years but it's a more purpose built design. It lacks the programmability model flexibility and balanced training and inference capabilities that GPUs offer.
- [07:05]
Jordy Hayes
GPUs very similar to Jensen's line as well.
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John Coogan
I mean it's not wrong.
- [07:11]
Jordy Hayes
Or the Nvidia newsroom line.
- [07:13]
John Coogan
Yeah, I mean I guess the question is, you know ilya seems to be at ssi. Ilya Sutskever at SSI seems to be the most age of research pilled since he coined that phrase and kind of ushered in the age of research. He seems to be the AI researcher that's doing the most undirected, the most like the least purpose built training potentially. We don't know what he's doing, but you would think he would need the most flexible systems. And yet it feels like he's maybe aligned with tpu. I feel like I saw something about that. So I don't know when an AI researcher would say yes, I need GPUs over TPUs. In fact, when we talked about the Trainium chip yesterday, we were reading that there's some companies that are doing interesting things on that architecture. So.
- [08:03]
It'S something that she has to say but now the question is she has to go prove it with some big clouds actually building on this. And maybe she needs a big hero training run from someone to stay like hey, it worked, we did it.
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Jordy Hayes
Who could that be?
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John Coogan
I don't know, maybe OpenAI, maybe one.
- [08:20]
Jordy Hayes
Of the new largest shareholders or potentially a large.
- [08:24]
John Coogan
So Lisa goes on to say from our perspective, there is room for all types of accelerators. However, over the next five years GPU should remain the clear majority of the market because we are still early in the cycle. And I agree with this because even if you look at like AI workloads at a place like Metta Gen AI, like actual LLM inference, large language models, these large transformer based models, things that might benefit from an ASIC like the TPU, that's like less than 20% of compute spend. I'm pretty sure like there's just a.
- [08:57]
Jordy Hayes
Ton of just recommending content.
- [09:00]
John Coogan
Put the ads in the chat, just put the ads, put the ads in the ads in the feed, in the feed.
- [09:04]
Jordy Hayes
Put the ads in the trough.
- [09:05]
John Coogan
And that obviously does use AI, it just doesn't use, you know, large language models. Or they're maybe not transformer based or maybe they don't benefit from the acceleration that comes from going to an asic necessarily. So she says software developers want flexibility to experiment with new algorithms. That certainly sounds reasonable. You simply cannot know ahead of time what to hard code into an asic. That is the difference. Well, I mean if you're Google, you kind of can. Since you invented the transformer, you're like, let's bake that in.
- [09:35]
Jordy Hayes
They might need to create the copium chip.
- [09:38]
Remember Nvidia? So Nvidia on November 25th said people very concerned by this post, Nvidia offers greater performance, versatility and fungibility than Asics, which are designed for specific AI frameworks or functions. And so again, that's, that's a fair point of view, but I think that we're already seeing that plenty of players are happy to buy a chip that is good at a specific framework or function.
- [10:01]
Jim Cramer
Right?
- [10:02]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [10:02]
Jordy Hayes
And so they're pitching the one size fits all the toolbox basically that you get in Nvidia GPU or an AMD chip. So.
- [10:12]
John Coogan
Well, if you don't want to worry about what chip your AI analyst is running on, go over to Julius AI, the AI data analyst that works for you. Join millions who use Julius to connect their data, ask questions and get insights in seconds. Lisa ended by saying, so a 20 to 25% share for ASIC Style Accelerator seems reasonable. It is also important to recognize that this is a large and expanding market and we will see strong innovation in both silicon and software, which we will, which will drive further differentiation across the industry. The other interesting thing is like, is like the, you mentioned OpenAI, but like there's nothing stopping AMD from doing something that looks like a TPU for a foundation model company.
- [10:56]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah.
- [10:57]
John Coogan
And going to them and saying like, hey, give us. If something is slowing you down by 1% and you're about to buy 100,000 of these, like can we just fix that for you? And everyone else kind of has to deal with it. Like there's a whole bunch of places where it would just make sense to actually change the chip. That's the dawn of the whole, the whole Nvidia AI stack like they made. It used to be a similar architecture between the gaming chips and the AI chips. They eventually like kind of forced forked that because they decided that even though they're both like GPUs, there are now different GPUs for different purposes from one company. And AMD of course will be responsive to that. So what else we got?
- [11:38]
Jordy Hayes
Meanwhile, Demis is moving on to the next paradigm. He is. According to Peter over at ALA, Marina.
- [11:46]
Demis and the DeepMind team are hiring a research scientist for post AGI research.
- [11:52]
John Coogan
This is what we were asking for. We were saying, we were saying, you know, there's a whole bunch of AI researchers, then there were AGI researchers, then Zuck came in over the top, said, we don't care about AGI, we're going straight shot super intelligence researchers. You got to be a super intelligence researcher to work here. SSI says we got to be a safe superintelligence. Researcher and now post AGI.
- [12:14]
Jordy Hayes
So is this him trying to bait agents, like AI research agents that are. That are like, of the. Right. So everybody's like, everybody's kind of banking on creating an AI that's really good at AI research. And so maybe Demis is trying. Maybe Demis believes there's one out there. He's trying to bait them in.
- [12:31]
Jim Cramer
Yeah.
- [12:32]
Jordy Hayes
And because one of these agents might be like, I am in the post AGI era, I am AGI time traveler scenario.
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John Coogan
What do you say?
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Jordy Hayes
No, no, no. Like, you know, who knows? Maybe there. Maybe there's a. Maybe there's one of these incredible research agents among us.
- [12:46]
John Coogan
Right. And he's trying to bait them in.
- [12:47]
Jordy Hayes
And say, hey, come over to DeepMind. I don't know who you. It doesn't matter where you were created. You're welcome here in the post AGI.
- [12:55]
John Coogan
I just like the idea that, you know, we initially were joking about, like, the media landscape being like the punk landscape. And you have like, pop punk, post punk, trad punk, neo legacy, neo punk, or new metal, all these different musical sub genres. All of that has come to AI fullest. There is AI AGI, asi, safe superintelligence, post AGI research. Now post neo AGI will be next, I'm sure. But until then, go check out Cognition, the team behind the AI software engineer Devin. Crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team.
- [13:42]
Jordy Hayes
So there's been back and forth on whether or not OpenAI is rolling out ads in chat. CBT. The most recent reporting out of the Code red memo meeting, etc. Was that they were. That they were potentially pulling back a little bit on ads. There was a bunch of different accounts, including polymarket, that were sharing that OpenAI is ready to roll out ads. One thing that was notable was that I saw a ton of people dunking on it being like, just very against ads in. So a lot of people. And you were talking about this, who's going to be the first?
- [14:13]
John Coogan
Eric Suefer, Ben Thompson. We're holding up the wall, being like, we will stand with you. Sam Altman and Fiji Semo, if you.
- [14:20]
Jordy Hayes
And Sundar. And Sundar.
- [14:22]
John Coogan
Sundar. We are your strongest soldiers. We will support you if you roll out.
- [14:27]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah. So. So in some way, in some way, OpenAI should want Gemini to go first.
- [14:32]
John Coogan
Yes.
- [14:33]
Jordy Hayes
Take the first leap. But I think that it's very possible that Google might be like, no, we'll let you do the honors.
- [14:39]
John Coogan
Exactly, Exactly. I think we were talking about it yesterday. The first ad in the chat in the chat app is going to be screenshotted and shared around the world. Like it's just going to be the case. So it's going to be wild. But what does signal say here? He says one last thing on ads. If I'm Google, I wouldn't run a single ad on Gemini Core. I'd run it at a pure loss until every competitor is forced to slap ads everywhere just to keep the lights on. Yeah, it's the bleed it out strategy. But Google had the opportunity to do that with. They could have gotten into a price war on cloud. They could have said hey, we want to come in, you know, and we're going to take zero margins on this and really try and take market share from AWS and Azure. They've all agreed, no price wars. Basically. Yeah, let's compete on functionality, let's compete on branding, let's compete on integration. They have not had a price and.
- [15:27]
Jordy Hayes
Google doesn't have to spend nearly as much time building any ad. They have the ad infrastructure. Right. They have adsense. They have thousands of people out there already that just sell ads that work with. So they have all the customer relationships. There's very few businesses on earth that spend money on advertising and don't spend money with Google.
- [15:44]
John Coogan
Speaking of ads, here's an ad for Adio, the AI native CRM. Adio builds scales and grows your company to the next level. And also, Also on the ChatGPT ads topic, Sean Frank says that a ChatGPT referred session to his site Ridge.com converts at 12% and is worth $5 per visitor, the highest I've ever seen.
- [16:05]
Jordy Hayes
For context, there's, there's plenty of e commerce brands who have like a 1.2% conversion rate.
- [16:11]
John Coogan
Yes.
- [16:12]
Jordy Hayes
And they're trying to improve it by, you know, they're constantly trying to improve that but they're, there's very notable that it's such a, such a massive difference in conversion rate. It just shows the level of intent.
- [16:26]
That somebody has when they're coming from ChatGPT. They've done a bunch of product research. Most likely they've looked at options. They're landing on the Ridge site basically ready to pull out a wallet. A wallet?
- [16:38]
John Coogan
Well, they don't have one digital wallet and purchase pull out a credit card from a loose collection of, of receipts and cards and cash they've been carrying in their pockets because they need a wallet because they don't have one.
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Jordy Hayes
That's what's Joe Weisen brother Joe Sergio.
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John Coogan
Congratulations to him. It was the 10 year anniversary party Last night, I believe overnight we just missed it. Success.
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Jordy Hayes
Joe has a chart, he says, wild chart from Jim Reed at Deutsche bank showing, just showing how much OpenAI is expected to burn before turning a profit. A couple of things stand out. How small the Amazon burn really was for its first eight years, people, how big the Uber burn was before ultimately getting in the black. And so it's hard to see the exact numbers here in this chart. Amazon looks to be like sub a few billion dollars, sub $5 billion.
- [17:26]
John Coogan
The Spotify story with Amazon though was that, was that they were just basically cash flow zero for a long time when they could reinvest every 10 billion or something like that. So it was effective. But I mean that's obviously way better for shareholders than hey, we're going to lose 140 billion.
- [17:41]
Jim Cramer
Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe.
- [17:43]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [17:43]
Jordy Hayes
This, this projection is factoring in Sam trying to also build space X within Open AI.
- [17:50]
John Coogan
Yes, that was in the business.
- [17:51]
Jordy Hayes
There's yeah. In the Journal today. Why don't, why don't you read through it?
- [17:55]
John Coogan
So this is a scoop from Berber Gin, one of the greatest to ever scoop. It says Open CEO considers building or partnering with Rocket Co. OpenAI chief executive Sam Altman has explored putting together funds to either acquire or partner with a rocket company, a move that would position him to compete against Elon Musk and Elon Musk Space X Altman reached out.
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Jordy Hayes
Opening up another front.
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John Coogan
Another front. Invading Russia in the winter, one might say in the winter don't invade.
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Jordy Hayes
Don't invade. What is it? Starbase Space during the winter.
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John Coogan
You reached out to at least one rocket maker, Stokes base in the summer and discussions picked up in the fall, according to people familiar with the talks. Among the proposals was for OpenAI to make a series of equity investments in the company and end up with a controlling stake. Such an investment would, would total billions of dollars over time. The talks are no longer active, but this happened. So now it's leaking. Altman and Open Air facing market headwinds after striking hundreds of billions of dollars of deals. So first to close out the, the, the, the burn thing, when I'm looking at this original chart of like Amazon over over eight years burnt half a billion or you know, a couple billion. Then Tesla burnt more than Uber Burn more like and I see OpenAI burning way more. It is striking but it actually doesn't seem that crazy if we're talking about a potential really powerful monopoly. Right. If there's a really powerful monopoly like what happened with Uber. Look at the market cap of Uber. Look at the market cap of Lyft and ask yourself was it worth investing $40 billion? Was it worth burning? Everyone will say absolutely, absolutely. And so if, if the outcome at the end of this is yeah, it's going to be the front door to AI for everyone forever or for 30 years or something like that, then it's totally worth it.
- [19:49]
Jordy Hayes
On There is a comment here that's from.
- [19:56]
That says I feel like comparing dollars spent in the 90s versus the 2000s should probably be normalized. So yeah.
- [20:05]
John Coogan
In other news I have more on this potentially. But let me tell you about public.com investing for those that take it seriously. They got multi asset investing industry leading yields and they're trusted by millions. So they are opening up a second front. What's interesting is not a second front. Yeah. Tenth front. It's, it's funny that there's no. That Sam Altman is not teaming up with Jeff Bezos who has Blue Origin but lacks a really strong bet. There was a little bit of.
- [20:36]
Jordy Hayes
No, he has his own company now.
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John Coogan
His own company, yes. But he, he's, he's not.
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Jordy Hayes
What's it called?
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John Coogan
I would not say that Jeff Bezos has as much control over AI as Elon does with X.
- [20:47]
Jim Cramer
Right.
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Jordy Hayes
He doesn't have as he's a co CEO of project.
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John Coogan
But this just started. This just started. Whereas Xai has actually scaled, has large data centers. Sure. They might be a little bit behind on certain benchmarks. They might be ahead on some other things. They might need to, you know, actually ramp the usage of this, of this product. But you can't say that Elon is like sitting on the sidelines during the foundation model wars.
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Jim Cramer
Yeah.
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Jordy Hayes
And I would argue that.
- [21:11]
John Coogan
I would Bezos.
- [21:12]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah. They have 6 billion of funding over this. Yeah. Yes, it helps, it helps when your co CEO is started Amazon.
- [21:21]
John Coogan
I don't know. I would just, I would, I would see them as potentially like natural. There's a natural alliance there. Bezos has, has a copy of everything else done basically like Bezos has Rivian to compete with Tesla which is interesting. He's now, he's not the founder of it but he's invested. He has Blue Origin obviously to compete with SpaceX and he has, he has a number of other companies that feel like they mirror Elon and it feels like they've been going back and forth.
- [21:49]
Jordy Hayes
For a long time. In other news, Mets owner Steve Cohen has officially been awarded a casino license in New York, enabling him to build an $8 billion hotel and casino complex next to Citi Field. It's a thousand room luxury hotel. 5,000 slot machines. So for those not familiar.
- [22:07]
John Coogan
So slot machines, you can't normally do that in New York. Right?
- [22:11]
Jordy Hayes
I don't think there's slots in New York.
- [22:13]
John Coogan
I feel like when I think of slot machines I think of Las Vegas and I think if that's the only place and then maybe Atlantic City. Yeah, Atlantic City.
- [22:18]
Jordy Hayes
I feel like you had an idea which was to somebody to set up a slot machine in real life, point a video camera on it and then have somebody set up prediction markets to predict what happens with the next poll.
- [22:30]
John Coogan
Yes. Because that would help you understand what's likely to happen and you could hedge.
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Jordy Hayes
Any type of risk that the slot machine might incur. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, if you're in the slot, if you're in the slot, you know. Yeah.
- [22:42]
John Coogan
You don't want to be on the other side of that slot machine.
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Jordy Hayes
You get wiped out.
- [22:46]
John Coogan
Exactly.
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Jordy Hayes
It's going to have restaurant bars and a theater for shows and 25 acres of public park. Parks and playgrounds. Okay, so fun for the whole, fun for the whole family. The kids will be climbing on, on the jungle gym and they'll accidentally be pulling all the. Imagine a jungle gym that's practices bandit.
- [23:08]
John Coogan
So you get used to the muscle.
- [23:09]
Jordy Hayes
Memory throwing, throwing dice. Throwing dice comic maybe like comically large cards that you could play.
- [23:16]
John Coogan
That's true.
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Jim Cramer
Yeah.
- [23:17]
John Coogan
We can make a whole casino themed place playground using generative AI and then use that to design.
- [23:23]
Jordy Hayes
Joe Pompliano says Cohen is essentially taking an under monetized asset 50 acres of parking lots around the stadium and trying to transform it into a year round revenue engine that produces consistent returns independence of how the Mets perform. And with the New York State Gaming Commission predicting that the property. Predicting, predicting wink, wink, wink, wink. The Property will generate 3.9 billion in annual revenue. Cohen's 50 acre complex would instantly be one of the top 10 largest US casinos by revenue anyways.
- [23:57]
John Coogan
Well let me tell you about FIN AI the number one AI agent for customer service automate the most complex customer service queries on every channel.
- [24:05]
Jordy Hayes
With FIN AI we missed a post on the spot basics competition. We did Buco says friend, dear friend of the show says overeating going to get their faces ripped off if they don't just focus, focus, focus. Equity deals and other bets will not win the great game. That feels to be the consensus.
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John Coogan
Consensus was talking a lot about the comparison to Google and tracking. When did Google monetize? Google wound up monetizing I think sooner than ChatGPT has. They put ads in it. I think in year two, it's now.
- [24:44]
Jordy Hayes
Been Google was trying to figure out, effectively trying to encourage employees to do, to eat more and have more massages so that it didn't. They looked less like a monopoly, right?
- [24:53]
John Coogan
Maybe. But I mean Google did, did get, did earn the right to do other bets by just so solidifying their market in, in the search engine world that then they could go and do Gmail and they could go and do GCP and they could go and do Waymo. But it's just like all of that happened after becoming cash flow positive. And I think that's why people have a little bit of like nervous energy around going to space. Even though space data centers, and this is what I wanted to go back to in the Journal was is there a world where, you know, okay, it's good to have a space data center bad. And so you need a partnership. And realistically Sam's not going to partner with Space X on it. I don't know why he's not just going by and large capacity from Blue Origin, but maybe Stoke space is the, is the better option for him. But put aside all the dynamic, all the competitive dynamics, I think it's possible.
- [25:45]
Jordy Hayes
That Sam was looking at Stoke space, which most recently as of October was valued at 2 billion and he was like, I bought Johnny, I've for What was it, six? Can I absorb another $2 billion company?
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John Coogan
I mean, okay, he wants to own the full stack. Yes. Which is getting stackier and stackier every single day. You're going to need to start buying land to buy the silicon, to buy the sand. But do you think there's obviously an immense amount of pressure right now on data center build outs. They're using too much energy, they're using too much water. If you put them in space, do you think that helps the discourse at all?
- [26:27]
Jordy Hayes
I think people hate rockets, so damned if you do, damned if you don't.
- [26:32]
John Coogan
But truly it's going to be much harder to say, like hold up an electricity bill in Memphis and say, hey, my electricity bill went up and it's because of Annie over there in the data center who's just slopping it up. Instead you're going to be able to say, hey, the data center that, yeah, it's generating sometimes helpful math homework help, sometimes creative writing stuff, sometimes it's curing cancer, sometimes it's curing cancer, sometimes it's doing weird stuff, whatever, it does a bunch of different stuff, but at least it's not Increasing my power bill because it's in space and it's not an eyesore. It's not in my backyard and it's not using any water because it's up in space.
- [27:12]
You think that would help?
- [27:15]
Maybe.
- [27:16]
Jordy Hayes
It has to, probably.
- [27:17]
John Coogan
But I agree. Then the discourse will be as blocking out.
- [27:19]
Jordy Hayes
But it is notable that every time the concept of a space data center hits the timeline, it goes viral for people dunking on it. And yet so many people want to.
- [27:28]
John Coogan
Play but they're dunking on it as a violation of the laws of physics or not a good.
- [27:33]
Jordy Hayes
Too futuristic.
- [27:34]
John Coogan
Too futuristic. It's not going to work in the near term.
- [27:37]
Jordy Hayes
The economics feels right for a moonshine.
- [27:39]
John Coogan
I haven't seen like there are viral dunks that are going on right now around the prediction markets and those are like, those viral dunks are like, this is a bad thing. I haven't seen people dunk on space data centers saying like I'm not morally okay with putting data centers in space. And I think people should be more morally okay with putting data centers in space.
- [28:00]
Jordy Hayes
What did Sager say about prediction markets?
- [28:04]
John Coogan
Well, you look that up. Let me tell you about numeral compliance. Handled numeral worries about sales tax and VAT compliance so you can focus on growth. What do you say?
- [28:14]
Jordy Hayes
Sager said in response to a video about a prediction market. He said, it's pretty simple. If you think this is cool, you're my enemy. So he is drawing, drawing lines, showing the sides. In other news, there really are like.
- [28:28]
John Coogan
Like active political candidates that will be in Congress Congress in 18 months. That this is their whole thing. The whole thing is their anti data center. And so get ready, get ready to testify, brother.
- [28:41]
Jordy Hayes
Anti data center and anti prediction market.
- [28:44]
John Coogan
Yeah, I don't know that I've seen any politicians really run on the anti prediction market thing yet. Not that it's not going to happen.
- [28:50]
Jordy Hayes
I think it will. I think.
- [28:53]
There are a number of enterprising young politicians that will pick it up. Politicians of all ages that are looking at this and being like, wow, a lot of people don't like this. I should make this part of my platform. It is.
- [29:06]
John Coogan
Which is less popular. We should have a prediction market to understand our prediction markets or data centers less popular. Yeah, I don't know. I think data centers might be less popular.
- [29:18]
I don't know.
- [29:18]
Jordy Hayes
The hard, the hard because one of.
- [29:20]
John Coogan
The things is you can just not participate. But with the data center, if it's in your power, goes up your power.
- [29:27]
Jordy Hayes
Also it's hard for people to say like I don't use data centers, so I don't want them. Like everybody in some way, sure benefit, like is benefiting from them. It's like, okay, like pull out your phone, let me see the apps on your phone.
- [29:39]
John Coogan
Oh yeah.
- [29:40]
Jordy Hayes
Like, you don't, you don't, you don't, you don't need this resource. Whereas prediction markets, there's some people that just get, they don't, they're not interested in the data even. I've seen a lot of polling. Polling. People that run polling firms are like very against prediction. I saw that for obvious reasons because it's like, hey, you're kind of open sourcing my whole, my whole thing. You're making it like you're doing a decentralized version of what I'm doing, but providing a lot of the same kind of results. In other news, this was hitting the timeline. Two days ago, Fortune said Nvidia CFO admits the $100 billion OpenAI megadeal still still isn't signed. Two months after it helped fuel an AI rally.
- [30:23]
I can see why people are very.
- [30:25]
John Coogan
In the earnings release. So this news was. The language was in the earnings release that this deal had not been signed. And it's more in an LOI phase.
- [30:35]
Jordy Hayes
They did say during the launch we have a.
- [30:40]
What was the exact wording? It was like we have we direction. It was like we basically like this is like direct. We've directionally aligned.
- [30:48]
John Coogan
I think it's directionally going to happen. Or at least it makes sense as a way for Nvidia to discount chips as they're building out gigawatts and more and more gigawatts for OpenAI. It isn't like Dylan Patel laid out how the, how this particular equity investment deal can wind up resulting in a effectively a 30% discount or something like that. So I'm not, I'm not surprised if this winds up going through in, in one way or another. Although I do think it will need a, you know, tweak and, and might right now might not be the perfect time for Jensen to come out and say, yes, I'm actually going to be spending a lot of money. I have to invest. I have to keep OpenAI on, on Nvidia GPUs as opposed to letting them go over to TPU. Like he's sort of like fighting on defense a little bit right now because people are talking.
- [31:40]
Jordy Hayes
Well, apparently it was a good time to go on Joe Rogan. It was just another pod guy says another Jensen interview. Now I'm nervous.
- [31:49]
A lot of people were saying that this was.
- [31:53]
Somewhat bearish.
- [31:55]
John Coogan
I listened to.
- [31:56]
Jordy Hayes
There was a good excerpt here from a capital they say, Jensen Huang In 2016 open air was just a bunch of people sitting in a room. Joe Rogan says they're not a nonprofit anymore. Right. Jensen says they're not a nonprofit anymore. Joe says, weird how that works. Jensen goes, yeah, yeah. Anyhow.
- [32:15]
John Coogan
Yeah, there, there's some wild, wild exchanges. I just liked the way I've been calling for Jensen to go on Rogan for years. I've wanted more of like the tech leaders to go on Rogan and kind of just like cross pollinate the two communities. And as I read the comments on the YouTube video, there were a lot of fans of Rogan who really were like thanking him for bringing on this guy who's working on something that's like pretty opaque in the economy. Yeah, it's very abstract.
- [32:48]
Jordy Hayes
I think it makes a lot of sense.
- [32:50]
John Coogan
And Jensen's coming and explaining it at one level and then Rogan's asking him to, you know, like, zoom out. Tell me more of your story. Why are you successful?
- [32:59]
Jordy Hayes
Talks about the value of hard work.
- [33:01]
John Coogan
Yeah, I thought it was cool. I thought they had a good time together and it didn't seem like there was any, like undercurrent of adversarial ness. It felt good. Overall, I enjoyed. Wasn't like you shouldn't go into it thinking you're going to get Jensen on Dwarkesh and you're just not going to get like a really deep insight into Nvidia strategy. But that's not the point of this particular interview. It's to understand who Jensen is as a human and what he's kind of like thinking of broadly for the industry. Well, before we bring in our next guest, our first guest, let me tell you about Gemini 3 Pro, Google's most intelligent model yet. State of the art reasoning, next level vibe coding and deep multimodal understanding standing. We have Jim Cramer in the a.
- [33:47]
Jordy Hayes
Living legend at the New York Stock Exchange. He just celebrated 30 years.
- [33:51]
John Coogan
He is the author of how to Make Money in Any Market and we will bring him in. We got the book.
- [33:58]
Jordy Hayes
Come on in, come on in.
- [34:00]
John Coogan
Welcome to the show. Good to see you. It's been too long. Thank you so much.
- [34:05]
Jordy Hayes
Where's it gone?
- [34:06]
John Coogan
Where's the God of it?
- [34:08]
Jim Cramer
I mean, there we go.
- [34:10]
Jordy Hayes
He was so ready. He was so ready.
- [34:15]
Get a clean, get a clean, clean hit.
- [34:19]
Jim Cramer
There we go.
- [34:21]
John Coogan
That's a very good. Fantastic.
- [34:24]
Jordy Hayes
There's an entry.
- [34:25]
Jim Cramer
You guys look fabulous. I love Using you. This is a great home for.
- [34:29]
John Coogan
We love it. We love it. Every time we're here. We're. We're. We're enjoying it very.
- [34:32]
Jordy Hayes
Thank you for having us. You're basically the. Are you the mayor?
- [34:37]
Jim Cramer
I'm more of an official greeter. I'm more of an ambassador.
- [34:41]
John Coogan
So. So 20 years on mad Money. Correct. How many times? How many years in this building? How long have you been working here?
- [34:46]
Jim Cramer
For about, I guess, like, four. We were in Wood Cliffs for a long time, and we had a studio for us to ask this because now this is our studio. You can't control the sound levels of who's here, whatever. But I kind of still feel it's part of capitalism. I really do. Okay.
- [35:03]
Jordy Hayes
It's a spiritual home.
- [35:05]
Jim Cramer
Yes. And I do like Wall, and I do like Broad. And I do think that. That there's a level of excitement. Not the way it was when I got in the business in 82, when first walked down the street. It was an engine. It's more tourist now, taking a look at it. But I still find it fascinating. The companies that come public, the companies that, you know, that I'm trying to learn. Learn about. And it's exciting. It really is exciting. Yeah.
- [35:27]
John Coogan
Walking the boat. Do you think there's an advantage to being here? Do you think there's an advantage to getting guests in person? When I think about the highlights just from this year, I think about you going to Tim Cook and touring the iPhone factory. That was a really cool moment. I also think about you beefing with. I also think about you, you know, going back and forth with Benioff remotely. Talk to me about, like, when do you want to go to a person? When do you want them to come to you? When do you. When are you okay having just a phone call.
- [35:52]
Jim Cramer
This is a fabulous question, because I waffle in this.
- [35:55]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [35:55]
Jim Cramer
I did think, as I was telling you terrific people out there, that there will be more execs that just would come through, and they don't. And we were near Teterboro at the other place, and they do.
- [36:06]
John Coogan
Okay.
- [36:07]
Jim Cramer
I like to be out in person on the road all the time. The issue, of course, is we do three segments. There are interviews. We do a lot of the issues.
- [36:16]
Jordy Hayes
There's no time in the day.
- [36:17]
Jim Cramer
Yeah.
- [36:18]
Jordy Hayes
You're always on tv.
- [36:19]
John Coogan
It's hard. We wrestle with this too, you know, like, really, you can go and travel to someone, make a big performance out of it. We're in Los Angeles, which is not a great place, but it works in many ways. But it's also odd. Like, we would assume that we're in San Francisco or at least New York. We're in New York.
- [36:35]
Jordy Hayes
Well, the funny thing. The funny thing. If you were getting started today, it's very possible that you would be walking around like one of these live streamers. Who. I know, I know, like, speed came through here at one point. You'd be walking around. You'd be on basically 24 7. You'd have your phone open, you'd be looking at the markets, and you would be able to just constantly be traveling around. But it's.
- [36:51]
Jim Cramer
Well, you guys do stuff where you said something the other day. There was a guy who said you thought he was in a booth at that incredible reinvention. Right, Reinvent. But he was really not at the booth. But the other guy was saying, oh, yeah, he's around here somewhere.
- [37:05]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah, yeah. That's a Simon from Turbofu.
- [37:07]
Jim Cramer
You pretend to be in the booth.
- [37:09]
John Coogan
All of the time.
- [37:11]
Jim Cramer
But I do find that the people in general are really nice. There's a code of niceness here. It's almost, like, written in, and it's so non New York, but I like it.
- [37:22]
John Coogan
What about when you. When you can't be perfectly nice because things just aren't going well for a CEO and maybe you. I always think back to that interview you did with Tim Cook. He was about a decade ago. They'd missed. I think they'd missed earnings, and. And the stock was selling off, and you needed to ask the hard question, what the re. What the. What the street was saying, but you didn't want to come at him too aggressively. How do you think about that?
- [37:46]
Jim Cramer
Well, it's very funny. I often go over these with my wife, who's my partner. Okay. And I'll say, look, I want to be gracious. Does this sound gracious? No. You're killing the guy. How about I add this? She goes, oh, yeah, that's great. You can't think about. You're asking about his wife. I mean, I do find that what happens is the facts dictate the graciousness. And if a guy misses a quarter and says that the quarter's good, well, he's a free fire, sir. Okay? A woman comes on and says, look.
- [38:15]
Jordy Hayes
We had a founder recently who I won't name, who said that he was making, you know, 30. He was basically selling a product for $30,000. And he was telling customers, we have so much demand, I can't support you. And then a minute later, he was like, well, we've Expanded capacity so much. And I was like, well, why don't you call the people you told you didn't have capacity two days ago?
- [38:34]
Jim Cramer
You nailed them free fires. You nailed them free fire.
- [38:37]
Jordy Hayes
And it's like, I don't know. I think I'm curious how you think about this. Like, I would say most of the people coming on your show, you have some level of respect for what they're doing.
- [38:46]
Jim Cramer
Yes.
- [38:46]
Jordy Hayes
And I think that's important, Right. That if you, if you have respect for a person, it means you're gonna be fair.
- [38:53]
Jim Cramer
Right.
- [38:53]
Jordy Hayes
You're not. They're not your enemy. You're just trying to have a real conversation to understand.
- [38:57]
Jim Cramer
Well put.
- [38:58]
Jordy Hayes
And then I'm sure plenty of times you've had people coming on that you got a little beef with behind the scenes, but for the most part, it's like you want to. You want to. You want to have people. You want to invite people on that you're genuinely excited to have a conversation with, even if you might be a little bearish. Might be. Might be more bullish.
- [39:12]
Jim Cramer
Well, let's talk about Benioff. I'm interviewing him tonight. The previous quarter, I did not like. Ok? And he came on like gangbusters. That it was a great quarter. And that caused me to do something I don't like to do, which is interrupt mid sentence because someone's talking. And we all. We grew up thinking our mothers told us that would be rude. So now I'm into the rude element. Right. And first he thinks that the root element is a bit of a for show. You know, it's like, oh, he's a little Broadway action. No, it was like, I'm not buying it. I'm not buying what you're selling. And then, like, in the middle of it, I thought that Mark realized. Jesus. I think Jim threw his big quarter. And then by the end of it, he said, wow, Kramer hates me. No, it's not. It's not. I don't hate anybody. Right. But the fact is, is that this quarter was the quarter I was waiting.
- [40:01]
Jordy Hayes
Benioff live on the air. Probably.
- [40:03]
Jim Cramer
Oh, probably. Yeah, probably. I guess 50, 60.
- [40:08]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah.
- [40:08]
Jim Cramer
But I, I. There was a period where during the, during the. I was gonna call it the plague, that I talked to him every day. Well, we were trying to develop a contest to develop the best mask. And it got waylaid. But we just wanted awareness.
- [40:24]
John Coogan
Sure, sure, sure. So we were working together on a project.
- [40:26]
Jim Cramer
Yeah. But look, I do. I. I've identified him as a friend because he came to my. He was one of, I guess, two CEOs that came to my wedding and there were 503 people there.
- [40:36]
Jordy Hayes
Only two. That's a small club.
- [40:38]
Jim Cramer
And with 503 people, if you could just throw a stone, you hit a couple of them.
- [40:41]
John Coogan
Yeah, yeah.
- [40:44]
Jordy Hayes
You got it. You gotta ask.
- [40:51]
I'm sorry.
- [40:52]
Jim Cramer
This is exciting. You guys are exciting. Okay.
- [40:54]
Jordy Hayes
No, you're exciting. You're excited. You are so. You are. Genuinely. People in our world do ask us time to time. They're like, you guys are crazy. You started a business that you can't stop working on. Like, we make the business every day.
- [41:10]
Jim Cramer
And I see it.
- [41:12]
Jordy Hayes
And we tell people, like, do you think. You see Kramer? You don't think he loves what he does? And that's exactly what we want to do.
- [41:21]
We love that we get to meet up every day and talk about. About the stuff that we're interested in. And I can see doing it for decades and decades and decades.
- [41:28]
Jim Cramer
Absolutely. I mean, it's a little like my buddy Schefter at espn. Schefter couldn't stop, no matter what. I mean, every time he looks at somebody, he's thinking about, is that person gonna do a trade? Is that. What's that person thinking? But most of the people are just kind of, okay, I'm on tv. My executive producer, Regina Gilglan always says, there's two kinds of people. There's people who are on TV because they wanna be on tv, and then there's people who are on TV because they have something to say.
- [41:50]
Katie Dayton
Say.
- [41:51]
Jim Cramer
And you guys have something to say. And what I love about it is, is that you have much better BS detector. Not to be like. I know that sounds prosaic, but the fact is I'll. I'll hear that Amazon's chip. Yeah. Is the best in the world from Amazon. And I'll say, maybe it's the best in the world. I mean, I'll actually, in my head, they'll be like, best in world, best in world.
- [42:14]
Amazon, my book came.
- [42:16]
Jordy Hayes
So obviously anything in the chip space is tough, but even harder. And I think something that maybe the east coast hasn't been quite as tapped into is determining which hard tech and deep tech companies are real. Because there's a lot of companies that are. The west coast calls them like render companies. They make really cool visual renders, cgi. They don't actually ship anymore, like sci fi experiences. And then nothing ever comes to fruition. And so it's easier to clock those companies from the west coast because of just the whisper networks. And, and you might know somebody that worked at the company. You might know their investors. You can. If a company gets to Series D and they haven't had a single tier one ever invest or participate, you know this so well.
- [43:03]
Jim Cramer
I mean, like people, it was a series C, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like thinking, series C, okay? Like, that was. Didn't I take that exam to be.
- [43:09]
John Coogan
Able to walk on the floor?
- [43:10]
Jim Cramer
But you have. You. You speak the language, but you don't make it. So I can't learn the language. You want me to learn the language. I have going for me history. And that's my edge. So, for instance, today, Micron got out of the. What I regard as the most consumer. Now I've been begging them to get out of the consumer actually literally for 20 years. Because they have a high end and then they have the low end and the low end gives them the 10 mobile and the high end gives them the 20 mobile. And I've been talking to Sanjay, whom I really like, and it's like, I'm like, sanjay, you have to like, do this. And he said, jim, I don't need to do that. And so today he does it. The stock's down 12. So I text him, I said, come on. And he goes, I'm in quiet. And I'm like. And I wrote, I'm not in quiet. I think you're fabulous. But that's because I remember the 95 breakdown where what happened is that that ultimate piece of capital goods equipment came out that could make a little more than we needed of the memory chips. And then it goes like that. And his stock had been number one and then 500 number one.
- [44:09]
Jordy Hayes
Do you remember some of this stuff better than the CEOs of the management teams?
- [44:12]
Jim Cramer
Yeah, always.
- [44:15]
Katie Dayton
Yeah.
- [44:15]
Jim Cramer
If it's the 90s, absolutely. If it's the 90s, like for intel. But I speak with them.
- [44:20]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [44:22]
Jim Cramer
I'm an idiot.
- [44:23]
John Coogan
And there's new leadership.
- [44:25]
Jim Cramer
Yeah. But I would tell you, like, I forgot my anniversary. My wife's. But in my. My wife's birthday. But I remember the, the September collapse in 95. Sure. But that's because it's all wrong. I have a memory for some things and they're the wrong things.
- [44:37]
John Coogan
Things.
- [44:38]
Jim Cramer
Except for one. We're in here. What are they doing? There's your Sal. It must be a twist. The light. You guys should go light the tree at 6.
- [44:46]
Jordy Hayes
Oh, we love to. We love to. The show will be wrapped up by then. One thing later. One thing later with. With Benioff. You Got to. You got to ask him about token consumption because he came out with 3.5 trillion. 2 trillion.
- [44:59]
Jim Cramer
2 trillion.
- [44:59]
Jordy Hayes
Was it 3 or 1?
- [45:01]
Jim Cramer
I don't know, 3.2 number.
- [45:03]
Jordy Hayes
But it sounds like a big number. But it's the other companies. There was Alpha Sense. Somebody at Alpha Sense was sharing. They were sharing that they use around half the tokens. Obviously not quite the same scale, much smaller companies.
- [45:13]
Jim Cramer
You know, Jensen wouldn't give you. Jensen wouldn't give you that rap. I mean, I remember when he did a me on when I walked in, there was me and he said, look, this was, you know, you don't know how many tokens were used. And all it really came down to, there was a show at that point. Mayor of Easttown, but there's a new one called Task. And all that Jensen wanted to talk about was when he was doing me, how hard that Philadelphia lilt was at the end. And Kate, Kate Winslet said the same thing. This man is da Vinci. He knows acting, he knows plays, he knows, you know, he's a well rounded guy. But all he does now is like.
- [45:47]
Jordy Hayes
Got good taste in jackets.
- [45:49]
Jim Cramer
But how about all the stuff he has to talk about?
- [45:54]
Jordy Hayes
How have you been processing all, you know, everybody competition, competing to say the biggest number. Right. Oh, there's reporting.
- [45:59]
Jim Cramer
I have a piece tonight that starts and I mentioned you guys right at the top.
- [46:02]
John Coogan
Cause I'm like, we thank you.
- [46:04]
Jim Cramer
Well, no, because like I say that this is what you guys do and I don't want to do it because I can't. I can't do it like you. You don't want to aspire to be someone who's not as good as you. Hey, I came in saying, you know, I'm like, I'm not as good as Jordy. What a day. Your wife doesn't want to hear that. When you come in, you know, John was like, I was so embarrassed. John happened to be. No, but, but, but when you're in these situations, you don't want to be in. Well, next week, Open Air has got a new chat cbt that's better than Gemini. If you just said, holy s. Demonize the best. You don't want to be in that world. And yet you guys know that that world is fluid.
- [46:40]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [46:41]
Jim Cramer
And I don't want to be in a world where suddenly I'm going to give an example. Broadcom is a general contractor for a lot of these chips. But you know, what's the general contractors. Does that work? This. Does that mean that they really had a lot of say, I don't know. You guys would literally know what it means to be what Broadcom is in the chain. I, on the other hand, is saying, hey, Broadcom should go up big because of this one is like, hey, you know what? I think that one's no line and one is the line. Hey, you know, guess what? I think the Patriots have a better chance than.
- [47:15]
Cleveland. That's why there's a line. You guys set the line okay? On money Line, on everything.
- [47:21]
Jordy Hayes
Well, yeah, we know, we know. We know our lane, too. I mean, being from the west coast and coming from a private markets background, we focus on market cap. You focus on stock price, how the stock is moving day to day. We, I think, are much more. We're much more focused on the product side.
- [47:36]
John Coogan
What is your sound on your soundboard? Okay, what do we got? That's underrated.
- [47:43]
Jim Cramer
On mine right now, I go to my mother, I happen to think.
- [47:49]
There'S a sound right at the bottom. Right. Which was from Office Depot. That was easy. That was easy. But that was when the show started, People just say like, what was that? I don't remember that.
- [48:05]
Jordy Hayes
The button.
- [48:06]
Jim Cramer
The button.
- [48:08]
But I think it's so cool. But like, people are saying, like, what is that? Was that a chain or something? And so it's. It's become a relic. But it's.
- [48:17]
John Coogan
Yeah, yeah. It's hard to keep the lore going. I mean, we are.
- [48:21]
Jordy Hayes
You know what this sound is?
- [48:25]
That's. That's Call of Duty.
- [48:30]
We grew up on Call of Duty.
- [48:32]
John Coogan
I still don't understand why he does that one.
- [48:33]
Jim Cramer
Yeah, I grew up on Pong, okay, Right? I mean, I thought Pong was incredible until Donkey Kong. Yeah, yeah, like Donkey Kong was incredible. These things were incredible because they replaced crossword puzzles in tic tac toe.
- [48:45]
John Coogan
Yeah, yeah, right.
- [48:46]
Jim Cramer
Twitch. Who owns Twitch?
- [48:48]
John Coogan
Amazon.
- [48:48]
Jordy Hayes
Amazon, of course.
- [48:49]
John Coogan
We gotta get Andy Jassy on Twitter.
- [48:50]
Jim Cramer
You know what?
- [48:51]
Jordy Hayes
You know what I want to do Earnings.
- [48:52]
John Coogan
I wanted to do post earnings on Twitch Live.
- [48:54]
Jordy Hayes
You know what that is?
- [48:55]
John Coogan
So Mark Zuckerberg's on Instagram doing front facing videos. Get Andy Jassy on twitcherberg.
- [49:00]
Jim Cramer
No, he's got no salary cap. It's unrelated. Everyone else had this kind of soda butcher salary cabinet.
- [49:09]
Jordy Hayes
It doesn't exist.
- [49:10]
Jim Cramer
Yeah, you thought Howie Roseman was good, but no, he sucks compared to Zuckerberg because he's got the salary cap.
- [49:15]
Jordy Hayes
You know something interesting on the Amazon front, the Trainium, when they were talking about not so good. No. When they're talking about their new channel.
- [49:26]
They specifically mentioned doing a training run for a company called Descartes Dean, the.
- [49:31]
Jim Cramer
Founder, which I only know because of you guys.
- [49:33]
Jordy Hayes
They do real time video and they're working with a lot of twitch streamers. So that, that, that training run what felt meaningful. And I don't think a lot of people picked up on that.
- [49:44]
Jim Cramer
That's a good example of what I would describe as why I'm. Look, I never lose sight that I'm a generalist because I wouldn't know that in the same way that I wouldn't necessarily know if we were doing steel. Steel companies, whether something's cold rolled or hot roll. Cold rollers have got a high multiple and hot rolls are, you know, the steel. Steel. And so you always have to be really careful knowing. Knowing that you don't know certain.
- [50:06]
John Coogan
Yes.
- [50:07]
Jim Cramer
Like I wouldn't. If there are certain specs put out on Asic Google. I have to be very careful because when I listen to what, you know what Andy Jassy will call me and he'll school me and he'll be right to school me because I don't know.
- [50:21]
John Coogan
Enough who's the next Marc Benioff in the sense of a CEO that you could see yourself just enjoying interviewing.
- [50:30]
Jim Cramer
Okay, I'm gonna give you a crazy. I'm gonna be a crazy one because it's, it's gonna be. I have to make it so it's enjoying. I haven't gotten it yet. It's Levchin.
- [50:40]
Jordy Hayes
Here we go.
- [50:40]
Jim Cramer
I intend to get him.
- [50:42]
Jordy Hayes
You gotta. Talking about espresso. Espresso. Talk about coffee.
- [50:46]
John Coogan
He's obsessed with coffee.
- [50:47]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah.
- [50:51]
Jim Cramer
You're kidding.
- [50:53]
John Coogan
Get him on the show. Talk about. And he also likes long, long distance biking and riding.
- [50:58]
Jim Cramer
Oh my God. But he's got carp. He doesn't want carp.
- [51:01]
Jordy Hayes
The tough thing, you got a three minute segment. It's hard to spend. It's hard to spend three minutes.
- [51:06]
Jim Cramer
Then you give him more time because I didn't know he had that side. I know he cares passionately about Ukraine. I know that he cares passionately, more importantly about making people who should get credit credit in a country where you still have to care about democracy. He's, you know, like everyone said, well, I'm democratizing. I'm democratizing blue jeans. You know, I'm democratizing T shirts. No, he's democratizing capital. And why not his. His algo is better.
- [51:28]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [51:29]
Jim Cramer
I just think he's. That's the guy. I intend to be able to get him out of his. It's not a shell. I don't know what it is.
- [51:36]
Jordy Hayes
I think, I think my sense was like the conversation for us, we had 30 minutes, right? You're. You don't have the luxury of having that much time with. With some of these guests, but some, some people take a while to warm up and that's why. That's why, that's why traditional.
- [51:49]
John Coogan
Sometimes.
- [51:50]
Jordy Hayes
That's why traditional podcasts are so good.
- [51:51]
John Coogan
A bunch of pre calls, get to know someone, then hop on and even if it's a shorter segment, you can. You can do it.
- [51:56]
Jim Cramer
Good. That's a goal then. And the reason I want to do it is because I find him completely fascinating. He came on the show when the stock. I told him, come on the show when you think it's going to break out, will you. He's going down. Is it 33. He came on the show and I said, well, what do you think here? And he goes, well, the stock is now done going down. It's going up. No one ever says that stuff. No one. They never come by. Let's stop. Oh, well, Jim, that's you. That's out there.
- [52:20]
Jordy Hayes
We don't.
- [52:21]
Jim Cramer
No, he's. Another stock's now done going down. And I'd say at the end of the interview, I said, that was a gutsy call. And he goes, what? I said, that is done going down. Because why is that gutsy? There's my guy.
- [52:32]
John Coogan
I love it. I love it. How do you think about. About market structure, oligopolies, Monopolies. Because the real interesting side of Max Levchin and a firm is looking at Sebastian and Klarna because now there's two companies in the same space. You can comp. It's a little bit of horse race that feels like good content, feels like good opportunity for investors. How do you think about a market like that?
- [52:54]
Jim Cramer
All right, so I'm out of the closet, this one. So we're just going to say it here. I always tell people, look, what I'm looking for are companies that in many ways are the worst thing that could ever happen for a country. I'm looking for monopolies because. Monopolies. Monopolies just. They've got gross margins. I just want big, gross margins. Nothing like. Did you guys ever read Rockefeller by Chernow? Yeah, yeah, the guy at 100%. 100% of the oil market. That's my guy. And when they broke it up, they created just a huge amount of wealth. But no, I look for monopolists.
- [53:23]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah.
- [53:24]
Jim Cramer
Or I'm happy with Oligopolis. Like right now, Lind Lynn Lindy, which energy company? Sure. Industrial Gas. And, and their products there are, there are slap happy duopoly right now. Yeah, they should be raising prices. They're like not being good duopoly, but that's, you know, it's kind of.
- [53:40]
John Coogan
I just always take so much away from the Uber and Lyft saga that I sort of grew up with. I might be overfitting to that, you know.
- [53:45]
Jim Cramer
Postmates.
- [53:46]
John Coogan
Yeah, I like postmates. Weren't they acquired in. Right.
- [53:50]
Jim Cramer
Yeah, yeah.
- [53:52]
Jordy Hayes
Bastion. Bastion's the man.
- [53:53]
Jim Cramer
Bastion is the first guy to come on and give me a hat. I said, what am I gonna do with that? He goes, it's called swag. What am I doing? Swag? Well, you put it on your head.
- [54:01]
Jordy Hayes
Shocker, shocker. Wait, how are you, how have you been processing Google then? Because Google.
- [54:08]
Jim Cramer
Oh my God.
- [54:08]
Jordy Hayes
Okay.
- [54:09]
Jim Cramer
I got out of Google, get this. There was some guy, I would call him a clown, but this is a serious show from the Justice Department who convinced me that they were going to take. Put Google in the same bed that James Kahn was in the show Misery. You know, hobble him. And he said, listen, we're going to hobble him. I mean, like, you know, make it so he can't walk. Yeah, that's it. And I took him seriously. And I spoke to Google's attorney, who was of course much smarter than, than the Justice Department, but I believe the Justice Department, I thought that they were going to wreck the company. And they kept saying over and over again, and we're not going to let it be like Microsoft. You know, we let Microsoft off. This is not. And I got nervous and I didn't panic. But when you have the Justice Department over and over saying, listen, why are you saying these things? You don't know what's going to happen to them. And then you get a judge who finds them a monopolist. Man, I've got to get out of this thing. This is bad news. And then the judge like three months later says, technology's overtaken it. Not only is it not a monopoly, but we think it's great that they paid Apple 20 billion to knock out everybody else. I was dead. I was dead. I was flat and I was roadkill. It didn't matter. Whatever I did was right. And since then, all I do is look at it and say, I'm stupid. I'm stupid. I'm stupid.
- [55:16]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah. But the real, the real thing that hasn't played out yet is like, what happens if we do end up with the duopoly in search Right. A lot of people, I mean, in chatgpt, he has 800 million. Well, it's going to have to see.
- [55:27]
Jim Cramer
Because they may, you know, they don't have the balance sheet. You guys ever read Niall Ferguson, Pity of War?
- [55:31]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [55:32]
Jim Cramer
Well, that is about whoever has the deepest bond market wins central money. I mean, he's got. The bond market is better for the other guy.
- [55:40]
John Coogan
So, yeah, this is a question for you because it felt it like I felt very comfortable covering the AI horse race, the foundation model race, from a technologies perspective, from a venture capital perspective. But once the discussion moved to is there enough private credit? Is Blue Owl gonna underwrite at these right levels? You know, we're having John from Apollo on the show. I hope he can explain it to us a little bit more. But how do you think about if a story kind of leaves your orbit, do you just bringing people on to understand.
- [56:08]
Jim Cramer
Well, I mean, what do you think? You're just trying to be generalist all the time?
- [56:11]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [56:12]
Jim Cramer
And it's funny because I have a general show and I'm always afraid to bring the balance sheet up for people say, you know, geez, I want to see what's on the Price is Right. I mean, there's like dial anywhere but that. Oh, Friends, there's Friends. You know, look for old Seinfelds versus me talking about the balance sheet.
- [56:29]
John Coogan
Sure, sure, sure.
- [56:30]
Jim Cramer
We have to do that.
- [56:31]
Jordy Hayes
But for some people out there, that's their Super Bowl. Right. They love it. Right.
- [56:36]
Jim Cramer
Look, I get a kick out of the idea that Oracle gets involved and that Larry Ellison, who is one of the toughest guys on earth, who's never made a mistake, and Safra Katz has never made a mistake or getting involved. And then Safra leaves and the FT says she leaves because she doesn't want what's happening to the balance sheet, her precious balance sheet of Oracle, which is not that good to begin with. So that's a good story for me because Larry has.
- [57:01]
Jordy Hayes
Larry?
- [57:02]
Jim Cramer
You know him?
- [57:03]
Jordy Hayes
No, he's never been on the show. He follows tvpn.
- [57:06]
Jim Cramer
He does, he does.
- [57:07]
Jordy Hayes
He followed very early.
- [57:11]
But what was your relationship like with. With Larry? Did he come on Larry?
- [57:15]
Jim Cramer
No, no, never.
- [57:16]
Jordy Hayes
He doesn't do a lot of.
- [57:17]
Jim Cramer
And like I've tried repeatedly. I won't get on my knees.
- [57:20]
John Coogan
I mean, he doesn't do a lot of meeting.
- [57:22]
Jim Cramer
I think he might talk about like University of Michigan.
- [57:24]
John Coogan
Okay.
- [57:24]
Jim Cramer
Do you think that Mark Cuban, he's been on your show. Do you think he's the reason why Indiana is such a good football Team.
- [57:30]
Jordy Hayes
Oh, no idea. We have no idea. People, people, people have used the ESPN attack on us. But it was funny because maybe I genuinely watch. Yeah, I've watched like an hour of sports in the last.
- [57:44]
John Coogan
What do you read into the co CEOs when you see something like that? Yeah, I mean having an Oracle.
- [57:49]
Jim Cramer
Where's my.
- [57:52]
John Coogan
Yeah, here we got a little.
- [57:53]
Jim Cramer
No, I co CEO interim basically. Yeah, it's just really horrible.
- [57:58]
John Coogan
Does this happen in Sequoia Capital now? And that's obviously a big focus of ours.
- [58:02]
Jim Cramer
Benioff was co CEO. We came with Keith Block. That was just suboptimal situation.
- [58:07]
John Coogan
Yeah, we got.
- [58:08]
Jim Cramer
The co CEO is now at Oracle. Let's see what happens.
- [58:10]
John Coogan
Netflix.
- [58:11]
Jim Cramer
I think it's hard unless you can have really defined duties like they had at workday and, but, but otherwise, no, it's not something I really want, want to see.
- [58:22]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [58:23]
Jordy Hayes
How are you feeling about, how are you feeling about the IPO market?
- [58:27]
Jim Cramer
I think it's, it's too robust. We're seeing a lot of junk. We're seeing a lot of biotech by the way, which is why the biotech instrument companies are doing well. But a lot of these are one trick ponies and that's really dangerous. Look, I don't want to protect anybody from investing in anything because everybody has a right to invest. Everybody. Well, you know, if you want to do a uranium company right now, a company which just says. And all it does is say we will find uranium and you use a really funny symbol like you know, five use instead of four. I mean look it, you know, you price at 15, it opens at 24 and then you wait six months and you sell every share. And that's what I'm afraid of.
- [59:01]
John Coogan
Yeah, that's. Are the biotech companies taking advantage of the narrative or is there a particularly different narrative?
- [59:07]
Jim Cramer
No, I think there's just been a lot of. I shouldn't say there's been starting to.
- [59:12]
John Coogan
Bubble up in tech in Silicon Valley folks saying hey, in the future drug discovery is going to be accelerated, the timeline is going to be way shorter, the economics are going to be completely different.
- [59:20]
Jim Cramer
But this, the big companies are just, they're just sales companies because when you go to the unbelievably cool great person who does health care, you know, video say that person doesn't. They're not, you know, Bristol Myers isn't. Get me help. It's not those guys. It's not those guys. And it really bothers me because if you're going to accelerate what's going on with cancer. Okay. So that you can do, you know, look at every single data point and know everything within. Within five minutes, you should be able to come up with the Holy grail drug. Blood test. They're getting a blood test for prostate cancer. So a guy down here saying that today he's going to become public hope, but they should be using it and we should be making far more progress than we're doing in health care. It's just, you know, when Jensen came on with, with synopsis, I mean, it's pretty clear they're doing the digital. Doing the digital twin, by the way, you know, I thought this digital twin would have been good with, with Vision, with Vision Pro, but I guess relic. Yeah, but I, I do think that that's the missing link. Like, and I think if anybody does it, it's going to be Lily and Dave Bricks because he can get outside himself and think about some ideas.
- [60:28]
John Coogan
Yeah, I like him a lot.
- [60:29]
Jim Cramer
You do? Has he been on the show?
- [60:31]
John Coogan
No, not yet, but.
- [60:34]
We rang the gong. We rang the gong for him because he hit a trillion dollar valuation.
- [60:40]
Jim Cramer
Yeah. Wasn't that great?
- [60:40]
John Coogan
It's fantastic.
- [60:41]
Jim Cramer
Walmart's at 900.
- [60:43]
John Coogan
Walmart.
- [60:44]
Jim Cramer
That guy, Doug McMillan, the guy's retiring. I mean, he created the stock when he came in, gave huge bonuses.
- [60:50]
Jordy Hayes
You want to create when you leave. I mean, you want to create her when you leave.
- [60:53]
Jim Cramer
Have you been to Walmart lately?
- [60:54]
John Coogan
There's an interesting, there's an interesting bull case for Walmart is that they are leaning in with chat cbt. Well, Amazon's leaning out. And so if the agent of commerce thing happens and people are just opening up their phone and hey, order it will probably be routed through Walmart in the short term.
- [61:08]
Jim Cramer
Really?
- [61:09]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [61:09]
Jordy Hayes
So Etsy, eventually Amazon will have to.
- [61:11]
John Coogan
Respond and do a partnership somewhere.
- [61:13]
Jordy Hayes
Etsy and Walmart have leaned in. Ebay and Amazon have leaned out.
- [61:16]
Jim Cramer
Wow. And that's a good quarter. Etsy had a bad quarter. Amazon, we know. What do you think?
- [61:22]
John Coogan
And so it's the laggards in the markets that are, that are trying to catch up by saying, hey, they're taking a. Maybe we missed the, you know, the real power law.
- [61:30]
Jim Cramer
I thought it was interesting at Costco.
- [61:32]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [61:32]
Jim Cramer
Deep into Agent Force. Do you think Mark's going to rename the company Agent Force? That's my first question to him. Look at all the different silos. Go to the page 18 on the deck and there it is. 17. They did. It's like everything's Asian, you know, all the different styles. They're now all called Asians.
- [61:47]
Jordy Hayes
But the thing is he's still hiring salespeople like crazy.
- [61:49]
John Coogan
Do you think Mark Zuckerberg is going to rename Meta? Did you see the rumor today?
- [61:53]
Jim Cramer
He's just going to call it a rename.
- [61:58]
Jordy Hayes
My whole thing is I think it's a good name. It actually is the Metaverse. People spend so many hours in it, it doesn't matter that it's not in goggles, they're spending it on their phone, they're on their computer. It doesn't. It doesn't matter that it's not in a heads up display yet. It is.
- [62:13]
John Coogan
It's a universe with multiple touch points.
- [62:15]
Jordy Hayes
It's like they even adapted the app so it is messaging focused. It's not even like it's hard to post content on Instagram now. That's my metaphorical universe.
- [62:24]
Jim Cramer
Maybe with Vera Rubin they can do high speed, a video short 10 second clip for an ad or an Insta. Yeah, and that might work. I mean right now I would put it in Reddit. I don't know. Have you seen the rates for Reddit? The rate card? No, it's like a fraction and it's very targeted and it's really good.
- [62:40]
Jordy Hayes
Reddit ads, Reddit ads.
- [62:42]
Jim Cramer
Reddit ads are the cheapest bargain for any consumer package. Because you're right, targeted like my wife has this mezcal business. Boom. There's like a mezcal lobby.
- [62:51]
John Coogan
Mescalov.
- [62:53]
Jim Cramer
I love it. Melanomi. My daughter's on mad pork. Unfortunately she beat it. But that's like, that's targeted. Targeted target, sure. I really like that because the rates I told Hoffman he's charging too little.
- [63:03]
John Coogan
Isn't he making much money from selling data? Isn't he making a lot of money from selling data?
- [63:08]
Jim Cramer
Yes, he is. And then Cloudflare's doing their best to be able to block. But you did Cloudflare, you did the implications of their failure. See down there? Did Matthew not. Don't call me math. Did he call you?
- [63:21]
Jordy Hayes
He came.
- [63:21]
Jim Cramer
Matt.
- [63:22]
Jordy Hayes
Matthew came on once, right.
- [63:23]
Jim Cramer
Was he good?
- [63:24]
John Coogan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, he's great.
- [63:25]
Jim Cramer
He's real smart.
- [63:26]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [63:26]
Jim Cramer
Hey, we should talk about like who's like really good guests and who's bad and we won't mention the name of the bad. We'll just say the good, you know. Oh yeah, that guy.
- [63:35]
Jordy Hayes
Team that you got to have on you got to have the semi analysis team on.
- [63:39]
Jim Cramer
The piece was too long. The one that you told me to read the 10,000 word.
- [63:43]
John Coogan
Yeah, it was too long.
- [63:44]
Jim Cramer
I Was like, oh, my God, look at that. Look. What's going on? It's a jet game. I got to go watch the.
- [63:49]
Jordy Hayes
Dylan will always call in. He'll be at some data center, usually outside in the back of a pickup truck. He'll call in and he's. He's absolutely. The whole team there is absolutely fantastic.
- [63:58]
Jim Cramer
They are.
- [63:58]
John Coogan
They're very good.
- [63:59]
Jim Cramer
They're really. I trust them implicitly for when you have something on Jensen.
- [64:03]
Jordy Hayes
Look at these two, you know. Have you met Eric Lyman yet?
- [64:07]
Going after.
- [64:08]
John Coogan
We got John fantastic.
- [64:11]
Jim Cramer
26 ramp. That's. Isn't that doing a C rally 26 round.
- [64:16]
John Coogan
Oh, they're waiting for series C. What.
- [64:18]
Jim Cramer
Should I always say?
- [64:19]
John Coogan
You're going to be here any day.
- [64:20]
Jim Cramer
Oh, and then what? What should I say if I want to say if I want to impress people about how far along I am? Should I say I just did myself A what?
- [64:26]
John Coogan
Series E. Series E. Probably I'm a Series E. These are going Series G. Series F. Jesus. People go really deep down round because people don't. Down round's bad. People don't like. People don't like going public. It's a hassle. They don't want to deal with the sec. They want to deal.
- [64:42]
Jordy Hayes
What do you think about if stripe. Stripe stays private forever.
- [64:47]
Jim Cramer
Johnny Carlson. No, people don't really like that. He was the great right Johnny. He was a great right fielder for the Philadelphia.
- [64:56]
Game to win.
- [64:56]
John Coogan
So what do you think?
- [64:57]
Jordy Hayes
What do you think of a great American company stays private forever? Is that. Is that going to bring.
- [65:01]
Jim Cramer
I mean, we've got Asplan, the orange trucks that cut down all the trees. They've been private forever and they're really, really rich. Yeah. You know, companies. I don't know. I think if you're public, you have to. There's some slings and arrows.
- [65:15]
John Coogan
Got to answer to you.
- [65:17]
Jim Cramer
No.
- [65:21]
John Coogan
You'Re more likely to get talked about on that money. The stock's moving.
- [65:24]
Jim Cramer
Well when you have like a Wells Fargo and the guy comes on and he's got this like all these flowery coats. Very clothes quotes at the beginning about Lombardi, you know, the buck stop. Lombardi was always saying, listen, if there's a mistake, there's me. And then the first thing he says is like, you know, actually there. There were these employees that did it bad and, you know, don't pay attention to them. I was like, no, in your annual.
- [65:46]
John Coogan
You say that you.
- [65:48]
Jim Cramer
How do you see that?
- [65:49]
Jordy Hayes
How do you get people. How do you get people off your talking point? Off Their talking points. I would say, like the only. The only thing. The guests that we don't like, the guests that we don't.
- [65:58]
John Coogan
The worst guests are the ones that are trying to get in rescripted lines. And that's the only time that we don't like doing the show.
- [66:04]
Jim Cramer
I had one the other day, it was doing it and I made a joke and I stopped and it was just. Like I said, that was a joke now. And the person didn't laugh and went right on the talking points. I interviewed Jensen and he says he's doing the talking, but he's saying something. And I make a joke and he has a saying. And I said, by the way, that was a joke. He goes, I was laughing on the inside.
- [66:28]
John Coogan
Boom.
- [66:29]
Jim Cramer
See, that guy can do it all.
- [66:30]
John Coogan
He can do it all.
- [66:34]
Jim Cramer
What do you do with a guy who's lovable and you're trying to be tough, you're trying to be. You really want to nail him. You know, it's like, then he's just charming. Charming is the enemy. Look, talking points and charm are. Those are the, like the Solan Charybdis that we have to really avoid. Right?
- [66:49]
Jordy Hayes
Funny story with Jensen. And we were in D.C. and we were sitting there talking with Shane Copeland from Polymarket, who has a partnership with ice, And Jensen came in and Shane goes, hey.
- [67:04]
Good to meet you. And he's like. Jensen's like, oh, what are you doing? He's like, I'm the CEO of Polymarket. And Jensen, he doesn't know it. And Shane afterwards, he's like, ah, I gotta work harder. I gotta work harder. Well, that's him.
- [67:14]
Jim Cramer
Gets him at 4, he does the emails. And now he probably sets it at 3, 40, 45 and checks all the things he doesn't know that are related.
- [67:23]
345.
- [67:33]
John Coogan
What have you gotten done so far?
- [67:36]
Jordy Hayes
You genetically just need less sleep.
- [67:37]
John Coogan
Yeah. What's going on? How is this possible?
- [67:40]
Jordy Hayes
Because there's a handful. It's like some 5% of the population can just thrive on like four hours.
- [67:44]
Jim Cramer
Okay, well, here's. Okay, so because we're not on air, I'll tell you what. The things I take, so I take Klonopin, I take Melatonin, and I take a gummy. And I can't stay asleep. See, it has to do with staying asleep.
- [68:00]
John Coogan
How much more do I take?
- [68:02]
Jim Cramer
These are all like illegal substances to some degree. Now they're actually controlled substances, but that's what I do to be able to stay asleep to a quarter of a.
- [68:11]
Jordy Hayes
So it's more about trying to stay asleep. It's.
- [68:13]
Jim Cramer
That's what it is.
- [68:14]
Jordy Hayes
As long as you can.
- [68:15]
Jim Cramer
What time it is. Oh, I went to bed seven minutes ago. I gotta get. I get this picture.
- [68:18]
Jordy Hayes
You have your Apple watch set up with like different alerts.
- [68:21]
Jim Cramer
Roving pictures of my wife.
- [68:22]
Jordy Hayes
What about. What about when the markets are moving?
- [68:25]
Jim Cramer
It's wedding pictures. Making some sauce.
- [68:28]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [68:28]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah.
- [68:28]
John Coogan
That's great.
- [68:29]
Jim Cramer
Whoa. Yeah. Oh, it's my wife. Yeah.
- [68:31]
Jordy Hayes
Incredible.
- [68:32]
Jim Cramer
She doesn't watch anything that I do tell us about. Drives me crazy.
- [68:35]
Jordy Hayes
Also, not the book.
- [68:36]
John Coogan
What was the process like?
- [68:38]
Jim Cramer
The book was about trying to get it so that people could, let's say, listen to you and say, you know what? These guys really seem to like so and so I'll go on chat. I'll go on Gemini 3. I'm going to learn about it. Maybe I own a share right now. That's stricken verboten. People feel if you, if you do more than own an index fund, you're, you know, you don't know what you're doing. I come back and say the information is never been easier to find. All these people believe only in index funds are just dogmatists. And what really you should be able to do is do index fund and do side by side or otherwise. We just think, you know what, all that information that you guys put out doesn't mean anything. And it can't be like that. We can't make people feel stupid. It's not right. If you have an observation that you think that a company that was on your show really knows what it's talking about, why can't you do the research, look at the website and buy a share? Why is that heresy?
- [69:31]
Jordy Hayes
So allocation to take 10, take 10% of your assets and invest in things that you're interested.
- [69:38]
Jim Cramer
Do you know how much resistance I've gotten on this? Well, the alleged tour? Because I don't really want to tour, but I did. Some people said, jim, you say that people should own individual stocks, but over and over again it's been proven that that's stupid. And I said like I was. I worked with private wealth. I've seen people make tens of millions of dollars. So what we end up doing, we have a millionaire's lunch with Jensen, firefighters, police, people who listen. Now, some of them were because I named my dog Nvidia.
- [70:11]
Yeah, well, that worked. That actually was pretty. A lot of people got. It was dollar at 90 when it was.
- [70:18]
I told Jensen, he says, no one knows me what's going on.
- [70:22]
Eric Lyman
So, you know What?
- [70:22]
Jim Cramer
I'm like, doing this stuff and it's like, now he's on Rogan.
- [70:25]
John Coogan
Now he's at the top.
- [70:26]
Jim Cramer
Yeah, I got you back. I got you back. And I said, listen, I just came back from California and I got to tell you, I had this dog named Everest. Uh, no more. The dog is Nvidia. And that's when, like I keep saying, you know, there was a police officer who came to the show. He goes, look, I bought I'm a Millionaire. I bought Nvidia. I said, when? He goes, when you named your dog, idiot, do you know really kind of what it does? He goes, well, you named your dog after. You don't name your dog after something. If you think it's a fly by night thing, boom, Right?
- [70:57]
Jordy Hayes
That's an amazing.
- [70:57]
Jim Cramer
Can I stay on forever?
- [70:59]
Jordy Hayes
I wish.
- [71:01]
John Coogan
I think it's your people.
- [71:04]
Jim Cramer
These people.
- [71:07]
John Coogan
You're welcome.
- [71:08]
Jim Cramer
What's it, A zombie sweater? They're killing, I guess so.
- [71:11]
Jordy Hayes
That's ramp investor.
- [71:14]
Jim Cramer
Why can't you get money? 2.2 yards. Your averages. That's what he's averaging.
- [71:19]
Jordy Hayes
Let's make this. Let's make this.
- [71:21]
John Coogan
Let's make this a regular thing. This was.
- [71:23]
Jim Cramer
Oh, I would love to. You know, honestly, you guys are. What I hope would occur. Okay. I kind of always hoped that this would occur, but I didn't know who would do it. This would occur, meaning a sophisticated show, but it didn't. Take yourselves too seriously, or I could learn and it hadn't occurred until you.
- [71:42]
John Coogan
Thank you.
- [71:42]
Jim Cramer
And I was almost like. I always thought, what did? People, they have to just make trillions. They can't stop and have some fun.
- [71:48]
Eric Lyman
And tell us things.
- [71:49]
Jim Cramer
But you came, you happened. And the fact that you happened, I. Okay, I'm going to be the only time I want to be a little immodest. I'd like to think that maybe in some way you happen because, like, somebody sometimes. You saw me. Yeah. I think that you are. You're not 2.0. You're sui. Generous, but I just feel like that absolutely. That it occurred and that people. You're. Another reason why the book's right.
- [72:12]
Jordy Hayes
You're on our Mount Rushmore Media. There's four of them, but you're the biggest.
- [72:17]
Jim Cramer
Why, thank you.
- [72:20]
Good luck to you guys doing what you're doing. You're just. You're just electric.
- [72:25]
John Coogan
There we go.
- [72:26]
Jim Cramer
Right. Where am I at? Where is that? All right, go get it.
- [72:31]
John Coogan
You're on your side so much coming in.
- [72:35]
Let me tell you about Linear Meet the System for Modern Software development. Linear streamlines work across the entire development cycle from roadmap to release. Let me also tell you about profound. Get your brand mentioned in chat GPT reach millions of consumers who use AI to discover new products and brands. Our next guest is Eric Gliman from Ramp. From the Ramp business. Corporate preparation. What an electric moment. What a fun time.
- [73:02]
Jordy Hayes
A goat.
- [73:03]
John Coogan
Yeah, he's a goat. He's a fantastic performer. He's been in front of a camera before.
- [73:08]
Jordy Hayes
He's an entertainer.
- [73:09]
John Coogan
He's an entertainer if there's ever been. He's doing evidence.
- [73:12]
Jordy Hayes
He's doing TV.
- [73:13]
John Coogan
Putting the 10,000 hours gets you good results.
- [73:17]
Jordy Hayes
He's doing TV at least four times today. He's doing his show three times. He popped on to our stream.
- [73:23]
John Coogan
I mean he's, I mean 20 years of mad money. He must be, he must be well past 10,000 hours on, on camera.
- [73:31]
Jordy Hayes
And I, and I think isn't it 30 years in television?
- [73:34]
John Coogan
Well, so Squawk Box has been on for 30 years.
- [73:37]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah.
- [73:38]
John Coogan
And mad money for 20, which is remarkable. Well, let me tell you about Fall, the generative media platform for developers develop and fine tune models with serverless GPUs and on demand cloud clusters.
- [73:51]
Jordy Hayes
That's right. Darren Stingers. Darren Rovelle is sharing. Apparently somebody is claiming that a Google insider has been trading on search markets. They're saying somebody's been betting millions of dollars or trading millions of dollars on who will be the most searched people of the year including.
- [74:19]
Jim Cramer
Yeah.
- [74:19]
Jordy Hayes
Just like whether or not Pope Leo will rank in Google's top five most searched people. Darren Rovel says this is what happens, what will continue to happen when unregulated markets are bet on as if they are regulated. Here's the thing. They are regulated by the cftc.
- [74:36]
John Coogan
Yep. And insider trading is illegal. Like I was looking this up because we were talking to Tarek I Kelshi about this and, and I just wanted to know more. And apparently like let's say that you just are trading corn futures and you just happen to know that there's going to be like a major blight in the corn markets. And so you go and trade if you have insider information that someone missed their harvest or something like you can actually get in trouble for trading, for doing insider trading even in commodities. Yeah. And you would think like what, what, what? Private inflation.
- [75:06]
Jordy Hayes
And the issue is prediction market markets become more accurate when insiders are trading on it. So it's like this weird.
- [75:12]
John Coogan
So Brian Armstrong was kind of laying out the bull, the bull case for.
- [75:16]
Jordy Hayes
Inside he gave an interesting example of an admiral.
- [75:19]
John Coogan
I mean, yes, it was. It was sort of a bad example yesterday. I liked his. I like that he's being philosophical about it. I mean, I feel like all of the crypto ogs are very philosophical in their analysis, and I think that that can be sort of clipped out of context to be like, it's something we.
- [75:34]
Jordy Hayes
Need to figure out. It is something we need to figure out is happening.
- [75:36]
John Coogan
And he's also been in that, like, I think what people forget about Brian is that, like, he was in the legal gray area for, like, a decade. Right?
- [75:43]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah.
- [75:44]
John Coogan
Where. Where he had.
- [75:45]
Jordy Hayes
He was on stage a lot.
- [75:46]
John Coogan
He was born in it. Where he was on stage a lot. And when he was on stage, people would ask him, like, okay, do you think. Do you think bitcoin should be a commodity or a stock or something like that? And you have to be like, well, theoretically. Here's. Without further ado, we have Eric Lyman from the Ramp Business Corporation. Good to see you.
- [76:04]
Jordy Hayes
Great to see you. I can't believe you made a sweater just for a Ramp investor.
- [76:09]
John Coogan
What is this?
- [76:09]
Bobby
They're doing it.
- [76:10]
Jordy Hayes
Tree lighting outside.
- [76:12]
John Coogan
The holidays are here.
- [76:14]
Jordy Hayes
Should we open this on.
- [76:15]
John Coogan
Should we open this Barkley x ramp collab sweater? I'm.
- [76:20]
Bobby
It's. It's been a strong season, and I have a feeling it's going to get a lot stronger.
- [76:24]
John Coogan
I love it. And you got the yellow side box on, too. You look fantastic.
- [76:27]
Jordy Hayes
Fantastic to see you.
- [76:28]
John Coogan
How many of these exist in the world?
- [76:30]
Bobby
Not. Not enough.
- [76:31]
Eric Lyman
Yeah.
- [76:32]
Bobby
I think probably limited merch.
- [76:33]
John Coogan
Wow, look at this, too. Yellow matches.
- [76:39]
I don't know if we can reduce your fire.
- [76:44]
We will put this out.
- [76:44]
Jordy Hayes
Enjoy them.
- [76:45]
John Coogan
Because, I mean, they're even saying that we. We might not be able to have a very loud speaker for our soundboard because of radio rules on the stock exchange. Like, there are a whole bunch of rules about what you can and cannot do because, like, there's serious business.
- [76:58]
Bobby
Well, you guys have, like, a deep partnership.
- [76:59]
John Coogan
We do now.
- [77:00]
Bobby
We do.
- [77:00]
John Coogan
Now.
- [77:00]
Bobby
Can we ask Lynn if we can be the first show to enjoy a lot like a scented candle.
- [77:07]
John Coogan
But I would. I would definitely ask for permission with this one. I would not be caught dead begging for forgiveness.
- [77:12]
Bobby
Okay.
- [77:12]
John Coogan
No chance.
- [77:14]
Bobby
It's.
- [77:14]
Jim Cramer
How are you doing by the book here?
- [77:15]
Bobby
I'm doing great.
- [77:16]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [77:17]
Bobby
I'm doing great. And we're in.
- [77:19]
John Coogan
We're in New York City. Remind me how Ramp wound up in New York City. You're not from New York City.
- [77:24]
Bobby
It's. Well, this is the Capital of capital.
- [77:26]
John Coogan
You had to be here.
- [77:27]
Jordy Hayes
You know, this is where.
- [77:30]
Bobby
I love that eagle, but.
- [77:32]
John Coogan
But you know, steel man, this for me. One of your investors might say that this is memetic desire to wind up in the capital of capital. Why not be the contrarian and build a fintech company somewhere else?
- [77:42]
Jordy Hayes
Look for.
- [77:43]
Bobby
I remember we, our last company, we had gone out west. It was YC demo day.
- [77:48]
John Coogan
Oh, you did?
- [77:48]
Bobby
Yesterday, we went through there and I remember towards the end of Y Combinator, we told the partners that we were going to be moving back to New York. And several of them looked at us like we had a hole in our.
- [77:57]
Jordy Hayes
Head, but we did it.
- [78:00]
John Coogan
Were you Korean roommates during yc?
- [78:02]
Bobby
Yeah, of course, of course. You know, and those were tough times. I remember we lived on Sandhill Circle. Sandhill Circle at the time, we don't cook all that well. We knew about Seamless. And the sad part was there were only two restaurants on Seamless. And so like we lost.
- [78:17]
Jordy Hayes
What are we gonna do today? What are we gonna do?
- [78:19]
John Coogan
Flip a coin?
- [78:21]
Jordy Hayes
It was terrible.
- [78:21]
Bobby
We lost a lot of weight that summer.
- [78:23]
Jordy Hayes
It was.
- [78:24]
Bobby
Times were tough. And then at the very end we discovered Doordash. And we realized there were in fact ways. But I remember I had kind of liked the west coast and Kareem said, you can stay out here, but I'm going. And so.
- [78:33]
John Coogan
Okay, we're going anyway. That resolved, you understand.
- [78:38]
Jordy Hayes
New York is.
- [78:42]
I feel like celebrates the entrepreneur, the person that's just trying to make. Make something in the world. And it's slightly San Francisco celebrates the earnest hacker. We talked about this with Paul Graham yesterday and that's kind of the. The YC ethos and it's like probably one of the most important archetypes in the the world, right? So much of the things and the products in our lives, in our world is due to the earnest hacker. But there's another archetype that I feel like finds their way to New York, which is the earnest builder.
- [79:15]
Bobby
So I think that glosses over a lot of what happened in the Valley over the past 10 years.
- [79:23]
What I observed from a lot of my peers who had gone through that accelerator funded companies during that area era was the average person they hired stayed there for about 12 months. It was an incredible mercenary culture. The San Francisco and West coast of 2015 through 2020, something we can debate kind of the year was not this like earnest hacker, two people in a garage. It had become very, very corporatized. And everyone who was out there, I felt the small startups Unless you were the hottest company at all points in time, your engineers were getting picked off by Google, by Facebook, was going to the next hot company when people were.
- [80:05]
Jordy Hayes
I feel like in some ways taking a portfolio approach, they're like, well if startups are risky, why don't I work at four startups over four years?
- [80:13]
John Coogan
It is crazy that if you just graduate like you know, regularly on time from a good college by the time you're 32 and maybe trying to buy a house, you can have done four, three, four year vests. Yes, that's a crazy thing to be like, yeah, I got some options over here. Vested a Series A company I joined, then I jumped over to the growth stage company and I have this portfolio. It's like that's not the goal here. The goal is to go on a generational run.
- [80:36]
Bobby
So build something that matters. And like when we came back to New York, look, I think it was maybe like Bob Ross would say a happy accident. Like when you, when you started hiring these people, we could punch way above our weight. If you wanted to work at a very fast growing venture backed startup, seed Series A, there was like three and so we were able to find extraordinary people. There was, there was, I think this wasn't well understood but all of the large engineering companies were opening incredibly large offices in New York. Google had done it, AWS Stripe was opening their offices. MongoDB. Then you had these, these companies that were authentically built here in New York. MongoDB, DataDog, all the direct to consumer companies, classically people who were in touch with culture, designers, marketers, people in finance. It was all kind of here. And so what happened was as I think the west coast is becoming a very hard place to build a genuine talent or lots of talent war in New York you had the talent, you had people who were moving to be out here and then all that was missing was people also wanted to live in New York. People.
- [81:48]
Jordy Hayes
It's like the, it's the greatest city in the world.
- [81:49]
John Coogan
Still a meme among AI researchers like should I move to New York? Should I like get out of the hustle and bustle?
- [81:54]
Jordy Hayes
All AI research.
- [81:59]
It feels like going to Hawaii.
- [82:00]
John Coogan
Like I'm ready for something different. Maybe I can go over there.
- [82:03]
Jim Cramer
That's awesome.
- [82:04]
Bobby
I think that this was part of the scene secret of ramp like we set out to go into be that definitive company where if you, it was a goal that in a few years time people would say like you know, you ask a friend what is like the best fintech company in New York or people would think it's, you got to go to Ramp. That's where they like take engineering seriously fast in their products. And we turn that into reality. I think that there's lots of other great companies in New York here and coming up and. Except accelerating.
- [82:32]
Jordy Hayes
But it's great.
- [82:33]
Bobby
It's great we're here.
- [82:36]
Jordy Hayes
Something I'm realizing recently of like tvpn, we probably added like one person a month in the year or so that we've been in business. And I was thinking like, what a incredible luxury that is because when you're hiring at a relatively slow pace, you have so much time to like, really get to know people. There's not like this pressure how, like, I'd be curious because I don't think you've ever shared it on the show, your philosophy on hiring when you're trying to deliver ramp speed, but also find and find and hire people that are going to be with the company for five, six, seven years and beyond.
- [83:11]
Bobby
Yeah, I think a lot of people who walk around the Ramp office, you guys know this. The company is incredibly young. You know, I think the average age is, is in the 20s. And a lot of it relates to this idea of, of finding people who are on a steep slope versus intercept. Obviously, of course, we have people who have had incredible experience in pedigree, but the question is, if you play out one or two years time, there's some people with a lot of experience who've said, I've seen this movie before, I've learned all that I'm going to learn and get a little bit better over the course of the next year. And then you have these people who graduated top of their class. Class. Maybe they're 19, maybe they're 20, maybe they're in their mid-20s. But they want to work, they want to learn, and they're on the steep trajectory. And we find these people who have incredible drive, have incredibly high IQs. We give them more responsibility than you'd expect. And you're patient, you wait a year and suddenly.
- [84:08]
You'Re filled with people at your company who are far more talented than maybe you could afford afford to hire otherwise, if they already had the.
- [84:18]
Jordy Hayes
Ramp logo on their resume, you were another company and you're managing teams and they're Lowell.
- [84:23]
Bobby
And they've grown incredible equity in the company, which has grown even more since they've been here. And it's just this incredible virtuous cycle. And I think that a lot of people, especially early stage companies, get pushed by their investors to say, oh, you should find someone who's seen this movie before. I want to find someone who's been this vp, whatever, and, and like, nothing wrong with that. I think that can be great, but it really underestimates the importance of finding people of that raw talent. And looking at again, slope over intercept.
- [84:50]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah, John, I interrupted you.
- [84:52]
John Coogan
Oh, yeah. I just wanted to hear about sort of switching gears, but positioning around the product in the age of AI, There's a campaign going on right now.
- [85:03]
What is it? Teaching money to think. Yeah, right. Thinking money. Thinking money. And, and it makes sense. It's intelligent finance. But it feels like it's the result of grappling with this question of how do you bring AI to bear in the product in a way that's not.
- [85:22]
Commoditized like every other company, but still showing some of the value. AI is this weird thing where it's becoming overhyped and then maybe may be potentially like even controversial in some. Like, is it using all the water? People are grappling with that. And so I wanted to know how, how you landed on that campaign. Like, how you're actually like, like how you're thinking about walking a perspective customer through the AI piece of the value prop from, from a, from a catchphrase or, or a tagline down to like, okay, you're actually sitting down with the cfo. Like, what promises are you making them? Because you're probably not saying, like, yeah, you're never going to touch anything ever again. Right. And you have to, like, be somewhat realistic about that. So how are you?
- [86:11]
Jordy Hayes
Get ready to enjoy pto, buddy.
- [86:14]
Well.
- [86:16]
Bobby
I love this question, and I think you need to start at the root of where this comes from.
- [86:20]
John Coogan
Sure.
- [86:21]
Bobby
At the. When the company first launched, we had this idea of time is money, you should save money.
- [86:25]
Jordy Hayes
Both.
- [86:26]
John Coogan
I love it. I say it every day.
- [86:27]
Bobby
Every day.
- [86:29]
John Coogan
You know, it's becoming my mantra every day.
- [86:33]
Bobby
Wake up in the morning, look in.
- [86:34]
John Coogan
The mirrors, bill, pay a cold, counting a whole lot more all over the place.
- [86:38]
Jim Cramer
It is.
- [86:38]
Bobby
And by the way, you know, for any CFOs out there or financial professionals who haven't yet adopted RAMP, you know, give your CFO or the controller, you know the wonderful gift of RAMP. Help them save 5%.
- [86:50]
John Coogan
Yes, yes.
- [86:52]
Jordy Hayes
Well, you still, you still push so hard on sales all the time. All the time. You're like, like, oh, this company is interested in ramp. You're like, introduce them to me. Yeah, and you'll jump on the phone like in the next 24 hours.
- [87:04]
Bobby
Well, there's nothing better than actually Feeling it, your, your, your yourself going through the sale, helping someone get through. And it helps you understand the experience and stay sharp. But the question is really good if you, if you think about the actual brand and the value props that we offer is fairly timeless. In a sea of ecosystem of credit card companies trying to get you to spend more, we want you to spend less and we think this is timeless.
- [87:28]
Jordy Hayes
Or the opposite would be like a new video model.
- [87:30]
John Coogan
And it also shows because you're a.
- [87:32]
Jordy Hayes
Pre AI comfort that's state of the art for four weeks. And it's just a very, it's like selling a very different product.
- [87:37]
Bobby
It's selling things versus value. And to be very specific about it, like if you and Jeff Bezos has talked about this in another context.
- [87:48]
John Coogan
Sometimes.
- [87:48]
Bobby
People ask what's going to change over the next 10 years. It's more interesting to ask what will not. And in 10 years from now or 100 years from now, it is very clear that people will always want to get more for less, for fewer dollars, for fewer hours. There's no way that's ever going to change. And if you think about kind of the central promise of ramp is going to help you spend less. You know, you think about, you could sell thinking or you could sell thinking. Thinking money we can help you spend that might change. But if you have intelligence introduced to some end goal, which is the intelligence is going to help you prevent spend that is out of policy that you don't want to occur once it's spent to actually tag and account for it and then afterwards help you make sure that the next month, you know, more dollars go to productive uses as being really good and really timeless. And so thinking money might be a way of saying it in the modern era. We're going to apply thinking to drive an outcome. Your company, but leaner, but it's the same.
- [88:47]
Jordy Hayes
I don't know if I want to spend myself today.
- [88:49]
John Coogan
Yeah, maybe not.
- [88:50]
Jordy Hayes
I might just chill in this treasury account.
- [88:52]
Bobby
It's this timeless idea there.
- [88:53]
John Coogan
Guys, we need you to ring the gong because there is a milestone which is that when we started the show, I was laughing about the, you know, we want to go to war on the paper receipt on big paper. And I actually found a company that I was like, are paper receipt companies a thing? Are they still big? Turns out there was one that was worth like $22 billion. I believe when we started working with you, you were below that. Now you've, now you've eclipsed it. And I think it's a sign of good Things to come, good omens and the death of the paper receipts. Death of the paper receipt.
- [89:29]
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show stopping by. Great to see you.
- [89:33]
Jim Cramer
Thank you.
- [89:34]
John Coogan
Have a great rest of your day and we will catch up on what.
- [89:38]
Jordy Hayes
What a moment too because I, I think if, if you guys hadn't bet on US last Q4 of last year I don't think we'd be sitting here today with, with the TV logo all over the nicey. So we're the whole team, we feel.
- [89:51]
Bobby
Like the lucky ones. Thank you and congratulations again.
- [89:53]
John Coogan
Thank you. Thank you Bobby dude, we will talk to you soon. We will also talk to you about turbopuffer, serverless vector and full text search built from first principles on objects storage, fast 10x cheaper and extremely scalable. I'll also tell you about Privy. Privy makes it easy to build on crypto rails securely spin up white label wallets, sign transactions and integrate on chain infrastructure all through one simple API. Cheers. We got a red.
- [90:19]
Jordy Hayes
Cheers.
- [90:19]
John Coogan
We're going.
- [90:20]
Jim Cramer
Cheers.
- [90:20]
Jordy Hayes
What a fun show.
- [90:23]
Next up we have John Zito, co president of Apollo Apollo, fledgling asset manager with 900, 900, $900.
- [90:33]
John Coogan
900, 900, $900,000. 900 million.
- [90:37]
Jordy Hayes
900 million.
- [90:38]
John Coogan
900 million.
- [90:39]
Jordy Hayes
Or is it 900 billion?
- [90:41]
John Coogan
It's 900 billion.
- [90:44]
He's going to answer some hard questions. What is private equity? What is private credit? What is asset management? What are alternative assets?
- [90:53]
I like the traditional assets. There's the alternative ones that scare me.
- [90:59]
I like.
- [90:59]
Jordy Hayes
Bring him in. Let's bring him in.
- [91:03]
He's getting miked up.
- [91:04]
John Coogan
But in the meantime we'll tell you about figma. Think bigger, build faster. Figma helps design and development teams build great products together. And I'll also tell you about graphite.dev code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster.
- [91:23]
John Zito is getting mic'd up. He's coming in. I should also mention that today I am wearing a watch that I purchased on getbezel.com youm can shop over 26,000 luxury watches fully authenticated in house by Bezel's team of experts. On a special day you need a special watch. There's no better place to get it than Bezel. We have John Zena. John, good to meet you.
- [91:45]
Jordy Hayes
Are you giving Eric a little pep talk there?
- [91:47]
John Coogan
What are you saying?
- [91:48]
Eric Lyman
He's got, you know, a couple, couple things.
- [91:50]
Jordy Hayes
You guys are friends, right? Yeah.
- [91:51]
Katie Dayton
Yeah.
- [91:51]
Eric Lyman
Last time I saw him he was. He was like taking all his Money, Small poker game. He was taking everyone's money.
- [91:57]
John Coogan
Oh, he was.
- [91:57]
Jordy Hayes
I can see that. He's such a nice guy. So he's got.
- [91:59]
Eric Lyman
Don't fall for the ramp path pitch.
- [92:01]
John Coogan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [92:01]
Eric Lyman
He's counting everyone's money.
- [92:03]
Jordy Hayes
He's like, I'm saving your. I'm saving. I'm saving you time and. And your money. I'm gonna actually take your money, and.
- [92:09]
John Coogan
I will be saving it for later.
- [92:11]
Eric Lyman
Their team is amazing. What they're building is pretty incredible.
- [92:15]
John Coogan
Tell me about. Tell me about your team. Tell me about what you've learned from him, what you've told him about managing, building a team. What does it take to get a job and work for you?
- [92:22]
Eric Lyman
Yeah, I mean, look, those, those, they don't need any of my advice. They'll come and talk you to me about.
- [92:27]
Jordy Hayes
About building culture.
- [92:28]
Eric Lyman
Yeah. But you know what they're doing there? They have a bunch of people around them that are just building incredible business for us. It's about. It's pretty simple. Find people with purpose. Find people high character. Find people that are, you know, generally good people first.
- [92:42]
John Coogan
Sure.
- [92:42]
Eric Lyman
And then all the investment.
- [92:44]
John Coogan
How do you like to evaluate people for purpose?
- [92:46]
Eric Lyman
I mean, for us.
- [92:47]
John Coogan
How long do you want to spend with someone before you actually?
- [92:50]
Eric Lyman
I mean, some of our best hires are probably the people that I've known for a really long time. I mean, a lot of our hires that we've made in the last, I don't know, five, seven years. I knew them for 20.
- [93:00]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [93:00]
Eric Lyman
You know, we've been in. I've been in credit for 23 years.
- [93:03]
John Coogan
Yeah. So quickly can we zoom out and can you paint a picture for me of, like, the actual Apollo structure, the empire, like, what's going on?
- [93:11]
Jordy Hayes
Maybe share some of the same numbers you shared with our mutual friend Patrick that I best like the best? Because the velocity that you guys are moving at is pretty.
- [93:19]
Eric Lyman
Patrick's a great guy. Senra is a good guy. I know you guys are close to center, too.
- [93:24]
Yeah. So Apollo largest, one of the largest alternative credit managers in the world. Largest alternative asset managers in the world. What's unique about us is half of our nine, over 900 billions are on our own capital through retirement service.
- [93:39]
Jordy Hayes
A theme.
- [93:40]
Eric Lyman
Through a theme.
- [93:40]
John Coogan
Yes.
- [93:41]
Eric Lyman
So we're writing. We're a market leader. In writing guaranteed income. So we'll write a guaranteed, you know, you want us 5% guaranteed income.
- [93:48]
Jordy Hayes
Somebody wants to retire someday.
- [93:49]
Eric Lyman
Yeah. And you want guaranteed income for the next 10 years at 5%. We'll guarantee you that money and Then we'll invest it and we, we keep some marginal spread between guaranteeing you the income and that's half our money. And then half our money is, is managing third party money on behalf of our historically private equity business which is over $100 billion and then our credit business, business which is worth of $800 million.
- [94:11]
Jim Cramer
So.
- [94:12]
Eric Lyman
Oh, here we go. But I, the guys out there told me I'm the first alternative asset manager leader on your, on your show.
- [94:20]
Jim Cramer
I don't know if that's true.
- [94:20]
Eric Lyman
But you. Let's, let's like let's.
- [94:23]
Jordy Hayes
I think that we've had, we've had, we've had plenty, we've had plenty of people that have, that have, I'm sure raised. Raised from Apollo. But yeah, this is the first. Yeah. Maybe like let's talk about why private credit, which people talk about as a monolith, obviously there's subsections of it. But why it's having such a moment right now in the context of these sort of like large scale infrastructure projects that are happening in AI as well as defense.
- [94:52]
Eric Lyman
Yeah. I mean look, so because half our balance sheet is super long duration for retirement and all these new projects need really long dated capital.
- [95:00]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah.
- [95:01]
Eric Lyman
There's only two places you can get capital. You can get money from a bank or you can get money from investors and the bank capital. They're amazing. A lot of things. The capital tends to be more short dated because it's led by deposits.
- [95:11]
Jordy Hayes
Yep. So insurance, we got to experience that with svb.
- [95:16]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [95:16]
Jordy Hayes
Little duration mismatch.
- [95:17]
Eric Lyman
Yeah.
- [95:17]
Bobby
So.
- [95:17]
Eric Lyman
So if you want a 15 year project, you want someone who's going to understand your project much more of a bespoke solution. Work with the company to have more flexibility in that capital structure or in that capital solution. It's much more logical to be with private capital than it is in public markets. And a lot of the people in your guys universe, it's.
- [95:38]
Historically they had to go public to get access to money and now everybody's staying private way longer. Like we've so legacy world, legacy capital was okay, we need new money, we're going to go public and that's how we would do it.
- [95:51]
Jim Cramer
Yep.
- [95:52]
Eric Lyman
Now everybody in the growth world has gotten a lot more sophisticated.
- [95:55]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [95:56]
Eric Lyman
They're staying private longer. They're raising capital through the private equity. Not traditional, but in the private markets world.
- [96:03]
Jim Cramer
Yeah.
- [96:03]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah.
- [96:04]
Eric Lyman
And now they're realizing, wait a second, we can do this in our entire capital structure. Wait, what's this credit thing? Oh, we can access private credit access okay. We can do a long duration project level finance and it's more optimal for their equity markets. And so they're just like, okay, so now that, now everybody's accessing this private markets and because it's growing so quickly, it's in the news a lot. Because it's a. Wait, it's growing fast. It must be risky.
- [96:28]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah. So talk about, I mean, that, that prompted the piece from Mark and it was Bloomberg yesterday.
- [96:34]
Eric Lyman
Yeah, he put out an op ed yesterday.
- [96:35]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Yeah. Talk as much as you can.
- [96:38]
Eric Lyman
I mean, look, there's lots of. Everyone has a weird definition of private credit. And so they have a whole hard time. Everyone has a hard time. Okay. Private credit's risky.
- [96:47]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [96:47]
Eric Lyman
And a lot of people think private credit's like the 5 or $10 million loan to like a tire manufacturer in Queens or something. That's what they think private credit is. We're doing 11 billion dollar loans for Intel.
- [96:58]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [96:59]
Eric Lyman
And that's private credit.
- [97:00]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [97:00]
Eric Lyman
Right. So we define it as everything from a mortgage to a commercial real estate loan against a building to an aviation loan against a new aircraft.
- [97:10]
John Coogan
Sure.
- [97:10]
Eric Lyman
Like super safe, secured, top of the capital structure, traditionally investment grade.
- [97:16]
John Coogan
So now you set up your firm to deal with a $10 billion deal with intel, all the way down to some smaller deal.
- [97:24]
Eric Lyman
We're, we're the only, we're the only firm that's full open architecture.
- [97:27]
John Coogan
Okay.
- [97:27]
Eric Lyman
So we're one investment business. So you know, David Sambra, who runs private equity, you know, are the guys who lead our hybrid team, you know, our credit team. All the people are all in the same investment meeting talking about, okay, what's the best solution for the company? It's not really about, let's solve for this small thing for a fund.
- [97:45]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [97:45]
Eric Lyman
Once you start doing that, it's very hard to work with companies.
- [97:49]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [97:49]
Eric Lyman
You know, like historically the credit business was, hey, we're going to go to a bank, we're going to issue a bond and then we would buy that bond. That was kind of the public business. And most of those people were trying to, to were typically conservative and they were trying to get just their income because most of us grew up in the opportunistic business and we've evolved into an investment grade business. We think more like builders and partners. And we're just providing capital across the whole capital structure. And when you can show up and say, hey, do you need a loan against the building? You need a, by the way, you want a retirement program for your employees and you want to a long Duration preferred. There's not many people that can show up with huge amounts of checks and just make it. And also, by the way, we're lenders to 5,000 companies. So now all of a sudden you're in our ecosystem and if you're growing the thing we're, you know, we can, we can help and be a part, a real partner, not just a capital provider.
- [98:46]
John Coogan
Yeah, yeah.
- [98:46]
Eric Lyman
And that's like the new modern 5,000 companies.
- [98:49]
John Coogan
Aren't there only. There's 4,000 public companies. How many. So are you a lender to all. Almost all of the public companies that are at scale.
- [98:56]
Eric Lyman
We have mortgages.
- [98:57]
John Coogan
Okay, sure.
- [98:58]
Eric Lyman
Commercial real estate loans.
- [98:59]
John Coogan
Sure, sure, sure.
- [98:59]
Eric Lyman
Right.
- [99:00]
John Coogan
Are you thinking about the real estate market? Mortgages, even buying houses? Like how do you think about that portfolio there?
- [99:06]
Eric Lyman
Yeah, we don't, we don't buy, we're not in the single family rent business.
- [99:11]
Jordy Hayes
You like your brand?
- [99:13]
John Coogan
It does seem like it doesn't look like, like a hot iron, but I.
- [99:16]
Jordy Hayes
Have a friend, this isn't a gotcha.
- [99:19]
John Coogan
Because I have a friend who lives next to a house that we was bought by private equity. He's like, yeah, they actually made it really nice and it's great. And my neighborhood's getting better because of this. Yeah, it's like kind of a hot take.
- [99:27]
Eric Lyman
But yeah, I mean look, that part, that part has been in. Obviously affordability is a big thing.
- [99:31]
John Coogan
Sure, sure.
- [99:31]
Eric Lyman
So, but we're more on the lending side. So we just provide mortgages.
- [99:35]
John Coogan
Sure, sure, sure.
- [99:36]
Eric Lyman
And so we have a big mortgage business and it's relatively low cost and.
- [99:40]
John Coogan
I mean as you get lower into smaller deals, do you need to bring in more automation? Are you seeing returns to scale on, you know, it spend or I spend or any of this stuff?
- [99:51]
Eric Lyman
Yeah, so I think that will happen for sure. I think that will happen for sure.
- [99:57]
The, the in the asset level side. So when you're, when you're analyzing large pools of mortgages or mortgages.
- [100:03]
John Coogan
Sure, sure, sure.
- [100:04]
Eric Lyman
Or in the security historically, that's going to be much more of a data AI driven. Over time our models will get better and better and hopefully and there'll be more plug in and all things associated with big pools and a history, you're going to probably get more optimal pricing.
- [100:18]
John Coogan
Sure, sure.
- [100:18]
Eric Lyman
And you can see companies like, companies like Morpho, like if you look at, I don't know if you've seen the token. Like there's, there are defi protocols that actually have market based pricing and that's going to keep getting better and Better and better and I think the scale players will ultimately win that. And so we use it more there on the smaller side where it's more flow related businesses, we have Apollo, which does a lot of our large lending, but then we have 16 companies which invest on our behalf that do specialty stuff. So our middle market lender, Mid Cap will do that. Has its own brand, its own employees, its own balance sheet, but we'll own some piece of the equity and some piece of those loans. We bought GE's aviation business, so they do all the smaller or medium or big size aviation loans, but in many cases it's our capital.
- [101:08]
John Coogan
I know there's some firms that tend to brand themselves as like we will do a take private and we specifically want to focus on growth and then we know some other folks who will just buy stuff that's basically, look, the business has done everything it's going to do. We're winding it down and so we're just kind of cash flowing it out and eventually that thing will just put on life support and sort of like built to scale or built to die. And that's the thing. Do you want to play in every market? Do you want to take advantage of every situation and be able to see what, what the trajectory of a business is and then just accelerate it along that or do you find a particular niche works well for you?
- [101:40]
Eric Lyman
Our private equity business historically been value oriented, not necessarily growth oriented. That'll help. With respect that, we didn't buy any companies in 2122 that I think are going to be somewhat tougher to exit because of the prices that were paid. And our team's done an amazing job.
- [101:56]
Jordy Hayes
Why didn't you buy anything?
- [101:57]
John Coogan
Companies in 2020, we just, we have.
- [101:58]
Eric Lyman
A 35 year history of buying at relatively low multiples. So just nothing was available under that framework to buy.
- [102:06]
And so we've been, we people think of us as being more value oriented, defensive equity and then everything around secured lending.
- [102:15]
John Coogan
Yeah. And on the private equity side you have DLT members, operating partners that go inside the companies. Is there separation there or is it all one like kind of pool?
- [102:25]
Eric Lyman
We have our own private equity team with our own dedicated operations team.
- [102:29]
John Coogan
Operations team that goes in and operate. Yeah, exactly.
- [102:32]
Eric Lyman
Just a traditional, traditional business.
- [102:33]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [102:34]
Jordy Hayes
What's your outlook on energy and providing capital for various energy products, Everything from natural gas to traditional, you know, oil, all the way through nuclear.
- [102:46]
Eric Lyman
Yeah. So Europe. We did a $4.5 billion deal for RWE. We did a six and a half billion dollar deal for EDF. Keep doing this. So we've done some of the largest European deals for power, energy transmission, defense. I think you'll see that continue in the us. Same thing, very large for bp. Multi billion dollar transactions. It is. If you told me five years ago we'd be doing multibillion dollar deals for, for S&P 500 IG globally in Europe and the US I would have said like that's, that's not going to happen. Our business, the business of private markets is across every risk spectrum. And it's really, for some reason that's not again not really transmitted into the market. It's just private credit's growing. It must be risky.
- [103:34]
John Coogan
Sure, sure, sure.
- [103:36]
Eric Lyman
So I think you're going to the logical answer for long duration power projects which require lots of construction or data centers. The logical places for retirement for 1k long duration investment grade annuities. Anyone who wants long term savings. It's a great, it's a great place to be. So I think you're going to continue to see private markets being the primary force around financing all that stuff.
- [104:02]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah. How, how do you guys approach.
- [104:08]
Jim Cramer
Sort.
- [104:08]
Jordy Hayes
Of like questions or debates around things on the data center side such as like GPU depreciation. Right. Everybody has, everybody has different opinion. You can look at, part of it is like there's some element of it that's unpredictable. You can also look at the present. Right. Which is like people that have five.
- [104:24]
John Coogan
I see 50 year depreciation.
- [104:25]
Jordy Hayes
Right.
- [104:29]
But you can look at the present and you can try to predict a future future and then, and then depending on who you talk to, you're going to get wildly different answers whether you're talking to somebody on, over on this coast or somebody on, on the west coast. I'm curious like your guys general kind of approach to like finding the answers to some of these questions.
- [104:47]
Eric Lyman
I think there's going to be winners and losers. I think you know for us we've stayed more short dated. So we did a large for valor and Xai, we did a multi billion dollar GPU financing but we stay at five years. So effectively we're the senior tranche. And then the equity holders are making the, the assumption on what GPUs are worth later and longer. Yeah, that's, that's hard for us as, as credit providers. It's going to be hard. I think anyone who says they know what the value of GPUs or the release rates are in year 5, 7 or 10, I mean it's hard to take that with any sort of credibility.
- [105:24]
Jim Cramer
Yeah.
- [105:24]
Eric Lyman
It's.
- [105:26]
Undoubtedly probably going to be the most violent cycle we've ever had. The no one really knows how fat the tails are, both right or left. But adding a lot of leverage to a assumption that you don't know if it's going to be a super bull case or a super bear case is kind of scary for us. So we've been a bit quieter on that side.
- [105:48]
John Coogan
I do think that folks in Silicon Valley, folks are audience are just really struggling to wrap their minds around the role of private credit here because it's a completely different just mental model to be in as opposed to just being a venture capital equity investor.
- [106:04]
Eric Lyman
I mean the thing is with this cycle it's so much more asset heavy.
- [106:08]
John Coogan
Totally.
- [106:09]
Eric Lyman
All these growth companies, defense companies.
- [106:12]
And they're going to need nuclear facilities. The nuclear companies, the power companies, the AI companies. It's all asset heavy.
- [106:19]
John Coogan
Yeah. As opposed to, you go back to.
- [106:20]
Eric Lyman
Google, 20, 30 years, it's most beautiful IPO. It's all asset light and the mental model is always asset light and the debt is bad.
- [106:29]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [106:30]
Eric Lyman
And so you know, I'm friends with lots of the guys on your show because this is changing.
- [106:34]
John Coogan
Sure, totally.
- [106:35]
Eric Lyman
And it's going to be all about who they can partner with and trust.
- [106:38]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah. Tech wasn't like, didn't have low leverage because they just didn't like leverage. It was because they didn't need it.
- [106:43]
Eric Lyman
They didn't need it. This cycle you need, need it.
- [106:45]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [106:46]
Eric Lyman
And it can be financed off balance sheet and it can be better optimized than actually raising equity and there's logical place for it. It's just, and so the scale is.
- [106:54]
John Coogan
Not necessarily just directly tied to the problem. I always, I always go back to like, you know, the mortgage. There are plenty of people that are making six figures and have a seven figure mortgage and it's like, so if you talk about a company and you're like, yeah, the company is making a billion dollars and they have $10 billion of debt or something, it's like that could math out fine if everything's, you know, flowing through and they're growing and whatnot. But yeah, there's a lot of, there's.
- [107:18]
Eric Lyman
Definitely a big pivot last week and a half.
- [107:20]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [107:20]
Eric Lyman
Lots of questions about off balance sheet debt. Should it be on balance sheet? Lots of questions about Oracle and others. Lots of questions about some of the Neo clouds. Yeah, I think that's just going to, that's going to push Anthropic and open air public earlier.
- [107:35]
John Coogan
Oh, interesting.
- [107:37]
Eric Lyman
I think you'll See them I think, I think they'll go public way earlier than is anticipated.
- [107:40]
Jim Cramer
Okay.
- [107:41]
Eric Lyman
I'm not sure what consensus is but I suspect that the more pressure and questions about that.
- [107:45]
John Coogan
Yep.
- [107:45]
Eric Lyman
Will require them to access convert market equity market securiton, other markets than, than just traditionally these kind of off balance sheet leases.
- [107:54]
John Coogan
I mean the last overall view is all over the world so feels like.
- [107:58]
Eric Lyman
It'S going to happen.
- [107:58]
John Coogan
Yeah, I think it makes sense.
- [108:00]
Jordy Hayes
What, how are you feeling about the IPO market in the present? Kramer was on talking about frustrations with different biotech companies going out and, and, and some of them being potentially lower quality. Where are we in your view?
- [108:14]
Eric Lyman
Well you brought me to the New York Stock Exchange to talk about private markets which is the funniest thing ever.
- [108:19]
Jordy Hayes
But we, we spend I would say 70, 70% of our time talking about private.
- [108:25]
John Coogan
Okay, good.
- [108:26]
Jordy Hayes
And we're here so that's good partnership today. Well the funny thing, the funny thing Kramer kept speaking in share price and we're like, we only think.
- [108:37]
Jim Cramer
Exactly like.
- [108:38]
John Coogan
Ramp the 33 billion dollar company.
- [108:40]
Eric Lyman
I mean look there's going to be next year is going to be. I'm usually the credit guy is usually always the bearish guy. I'm like I think lower rates, I think tons of M A. I think you'll see a lot more huge technology away. Who knows what the 4 trillion, 5 trillion whatever the estimate of capital who will benefit. But it's going to benefit the consumer. Yeah, the idea is going to benefit the consumer.
- [109:00]
Jordy Hayes
And when you say M and A though is this, is this P E funds that loaded up in 2021, 2022.
- [109:06]
Eric Lyman
Finally capitulating or I think, I mean I don't think anyone thought you know, you see what's happening. There's some very large M and A transactions. You saw EchoStar this year sold a bunch of assets in exchange for SpaceX stock.
- [109:19]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [109:19]
Jordy Hayes
You know like people are like wait, this company owns half of or not half but like half like they've got like 10 million. Yeah, yeah. You look at the debt.
- [109:28]
Eric Lyman
No, but even that it's pretty, it's pretty attractive. I mean it's a pretty way to actually get to get access to SpaceX. I mean it was a pure play tracker. I'm not, I don't know if I'm supposed to talk about that kind of thing. It's pretty, it's a pretty interesting way to get access to it.
- [109:41]
John Coogan
Yeah, they're making an open AI movie. They're making a new social network Facebook movie. Do you think they'll ever make a Caesar's palace heist movie. Oh, Jesus.
- [109:51]
Eric Lyman
I don't know. I don't know.
- [109:52]
Jim Cramer
I hope not. But.
- [109:54]
John Coogan
But I mean seriously, like, because that book was introduced to me through our friend group and we were all like, this is awesome. But I oftentimes internally at these firms, they're like, everyone in Silicon Valley is like, yeah, Social Network, awesome movie. It inspired me to start a tech company. And Mark Zuckerberg is like not a fan. Right. And so I'm wondering internally, does the firm. How does the firm remember the book?
- [110:15]
Eric Lyman
Listen, we. That. That was so long ago. The context of the business. We've become a complete kind of credit passive.
- [110:24]
John Coogan
Sure, sure.
- [110:26]
Eric Lyman
And the kind of activity we do day to day, by and large is far different.
- [110:30]
Jim Cramer
Yeah.
- [110:31]
Eric Lyman
I think generally speaking our investors look at that situation and say, listen, they're going to fight for every dollar. So I think there's a balance between the one thing as you grow is you want to maintain your investment culture. And so how do you make sure you maintain your investment culture? Recruit the best people. And the paradox of growing, but also really being a good investor, that's like a very tough balance sometimes. And so, you know, I every day trying to make sure that we.
- [110:59]
Jordy Hayes
Who on your team evaluates various AI tools that I'm sure you're getting pitched 100 times.
- [111:04]
Eric Lyman
We have a whole team. I mean, we have a team. It's called Lab 42. But Rob Bittencourt really leads the thematic investing. You should have him on. I mean he spends all his time assessing all the hyperscale, the entire ecosystem, both debt and equity. Yeah, let's go.
- [111:20]
Jordy Hayes
It's a tree lighting.
- [111:24]
John Coogan
Tree has been. This is why we brought you on.
- [111:29]
Jordy Hayes
Curse of Spirit.
- [111:32]
John Coogan
That's a lot of fun.
- [111:35]
It's 4pm you're watching.
- [111:39]
Jordy Hayes
We can't hear anything.
- [111:43]
John Coogan
Fun being here.
- [111:44]
Jordy Hayes
They said they've never done an IPO on Tree Lighting Day.
- [111:47]
Eric Lyman
Oh really?
- [111:48]
John Coogan
Like the last 10 years or something.
- [111:49]
Jordy Hayes
Somebody's got to do it.
- [111:51]
Jim Cramer
Yeah, it's Hank.
- [111:53]
Eric Lyman
It's.
- [111:54]
John Coogan
Who is it?
- [111:54]
Eric Lyman
Aaria. That's.
- [111:55]
John Coogan
They got Santa here too.
- [111:55]
Eric Lyman
It's Hank Azaria, isn't it?
- [111:57]
John Coogan
No way. Oh, yeah.
- [112:00]
Eric Lyman
Last time I saw him, he was in like a. He's in a cover band. You know, he plays in a cover.
- [112:06]
Jordy Hayes
Is.
- [112:06]
Eric Lyman
He's a cover man.
- [112:07]
John Coogan
It's actually pretty good.
- [112:08]
Jim Cramer
Really?
- [112:08]
John Coogan
That's amazing. There are a ton of people here. This is as big as an IPO in terms of folks roaming the floor. There's a lot of folks there's some mascots over there. They're having fun. Anyway, thank you so much for coming on the show.
- [112:20]
Jordy Hayes
We really appreciate it.
- [112:24]
People talk soon.
- [112:27]
John Coogan
Before we bring in our last guest of the show, let me tell you about wanderer.com Book of Wonder with inspiring views, hotel grade amenities, dream beds, top tier cleaning and 247 concierge service. And you know, you heard Jim Cramer talk about sleep. We need to get him an Eight Sleep at Eight Sleep.com actually that'd be.
- [112:46]
Jordy Hayes
A good Christmas present.
- [112:47]
John Coogan
Exceptional sleep without exception. Fall asleep faster, sleep deeper and wake.
- [112:51]
Jordy Hayes
Up and we should actually get him an eight sleep for Christmas.
- [112:54]
John Coogan
And our and you know you're looking behind us. There's some we're on the cubes. You can see us over there. We're on that cube.
- [113:02]
Jordy Hayes
Actually we're down to one cube.
- [113:03]
John Coogan
We're down to one cube. The tree took over but if you want to put your brand your logo on something that looks like a cube, why not get a billboard@ad quick.com I love it. Out of home advertising made easy and measurable plan buy and measure out of home with precision.
- [113:19]
Jordy Hayes
People are joking around on the timeline. Meta of course is planning to cut 30% of their I guess a budget of their Metaverse efforts.
- [113:29]
John Coogan
So this is Reality Labs. This Reality Labs which has worked on VR and AR but also Metaverse development and I mean it's a lot of the stuff that was on display during Meta Connect. Some really promising stuff, some really cool stuff. People like it but also a lot of spend and so they you know leaked today I don't know they announced.
- [113:49]
Jordy Hayes
And consistent census media which definitely could joking around. They say Metta will announce plans for name change new stock ticker within the coming weeks. Zuck viewed as leading candidate for new ticker seems like fake news but it's certainly, it's certainly fun.
- [114:07]
John Coogan
Yeah I like the I like the.
- [114:09]
Jordy Hayes
Meta name Max Hoda.
- [114:10]
John Coogan
I think it's, I think it's former.
- [114:12]
Jordy Hayes
Guest.
- [114:14]
Says the idea that this is the end of Meta's metaverse drama dreams is probably wrong. I bet this will actually make them go faster and I agree.
- [114:23]
John Coogan
I'm very excited for the next VR headset. I think the quest for I think James Cameron tried it and really enjoyed it.
- [114:31]
Jordy Hayes
Kalash last post and then we'll bring in our next guest says Linktree is a billion dollar company A billion dollars for literally links in a tree.
- [114:42]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [114:43]
Jordy Hayes
Michael Miraflor says you need to be you need to study business models. You have to be investigation maxing value decoding you should never think the consumer facing product is the thing. There's a thing behind the thing that generates revenue.
- [114:53]
John Coogan
It is true.
- [114:54]
Jordy Hayes
It's supposed to unlock cash flow at a certain scale that justifies valuation. There's a vision here. So anyways, without further ado, let's bring in our next guest.
- [115:04]
John Coogan
Hi. Good to see you. Welcome to the show.
- [115:08]
Jim Cramer
Good to see you.
- [115:09]
John Coogan
So much for coming down and hanging out.
- [115:11]
Katie Dayton
Congratulations.
- [115:13]
Jordy Hayes
Thank you, thank you.
- [115:13]
Katie Dayton
Day number one.
- [115:14]
Jordy Hayes
How's it been going? It's very special.
- [115:16]
John Coogan
Fantastic. We love this place.
- [115:17]
Jordy Hayes
It's fun as a, as a media person to be here because it's become just the center for media.
- [115:22]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [115:23]
Jordy Hayes
Anyway.
- [115:23]
John Coogan
Yeah, yeah.
- [115:24]
Katie Dayton
Did you just see Hank Azaria out?
- [115:27]
John Coogan
It was him, wasn't it?
- [115:28]
Eric Lyman
Yeah, yeah.
- [115:28]
John Coogan
Yes. Our last guest was, was IDing him and I couldn't, I couldn't see from here, but it does appear that he's down there walking around. It's a full on tree lighting and.
- [115:38]
Katie Dayton
With the builder back.
- [115:40]
Jordy Hayes
Azaria. I don't know, I don't know much about movies. I was like, I have no.
- [115:45]
Katie Dayton
Do you watch tv?
- [115:45]
John Coogan
No, he watches no movies. No tv. Really?
- [115:47]
Jordy Hayes
Very, very rare.
- [115:48]
John Coogan
He's seen one movie Borat and that's it. Pretty much. Pretty much.
- [115:51]
Jordy Hayes
And I saw that new movie Mountain Gate. I feel like I needed to give a review for the show about. It was about some AI founders that go to the. That go to. I felt like loosely based on the all in podcast.
- [116:04]
Anyways, so great to have you.
- [116:05]
John Coogan
What's your go to holiday movie?
- [116:07]
Katie Dayton
Oh my goodness. Can I say the Sound of Music. I don't know if that's technically a holiday movie, but it's the one I watch around that time.
- [116:14]
John Coogan
I think nostalgic in an old way that like it's appropriate. If you threw it on people, it doesn't scream Christmas, but people would be accepting of it.
- [116:21]
Katie Dayton
Yeah. My controversial opinion is I don't like It's a Wonderful Life.
- [116:26]
John Coogan
Oh, that one is a little bit old.
- [116:28]
Jordy Hayes
What about Elf Tooth? Elf.
- [116:31]
John Coogan
Elf.
- [116:31]
Jim Cramer
Elf.
- [116:32]
Katie Dayton
Yeah.
- [116:32]
John Coogan
Look at the. Is that a movie? Yeah, someone told me.
- [116:36]
Jordy Hayes
What's your favorite color?
- [116:39]
John Coogan
So anyway, please introduce yourself for the stream. For those who might not know you. What's your day to day like?
- [116:45]
Katie Dayton
So I'm Katie Dayton. I write for the Wall Street Journal. All about anything to do with brands, marketing, advertising, some media thrown in and just basically any ways brands are really trying to cut through. I think that is the undefined underlying theme of my coverage.
- [117:01]
John Coogan
And what, what has been the big theme in your Coverage.
- [117:03]
Jordy Hayes
It's interesting to coverage because when a brand breaks through, it's almost always for a different reason. Like it's an interesting set of circumstances that allow them to bring and strategy on their part and some luck that gets thrown in. And it's. So again, there's not like a playbook. If you're following a playbook, it's probably been done and it could work if you're in another category. We saw this in D2C, right. People were like, oh, if you make a pretty website and you run a lot of ads, you can sell a lot of a product. And then a few other people did it well and then it basically stopped working. Like it can still work in certain situations.
- [117:34]
Eric Lyman
Yeah.
- [117:35]
John Coogan
The red antler trade didn't last.
- [117:37]
Jordy Hayes
It was like, you need $500,000 for a brand and you need a product.
- [117:41]
John Coogan
And it works for Hims. Hims is a public company and is doing fine.
- [117:45]
Jordy Hayes
Also, Hims worked with Emmett.
- [117:46]
John Coogan
Oh, that's right. Was it RO that worked with. I think RO worked with.
- [117:50]
Katie Dayton
Anyways, anyways, so I bought my first Warby Parker glasses.
- [117:53]
John Coogan
You did.
- [117:54]
Katie Dayton
Last week. And I thought, God, I'm a bit late to this one as well. That was. That's been around for a while. I think that's what's so interesting right now is that there is no playbook anymore. Even if you're a humongous brand, you know, you're sort of. When you're managing any kind of decline, there's no playbook for that. And there's no playbook for a young D2C brand.
- [118:11]
Jordy Hayes
Because, you know, we heard about an apparel brand that is scaled from 0 to 700 million of revenue in like two years, all on TikTok Shop. We had never heard of it. I don't know if they're public, so I don't know if the numbers are public. So I won't share the name. I'll share it with you after. But.
- [118:27]
Bobby
Yeah.
- [118:28]
John Coogan
Remarkable. What has been the big trend of the year in terms of your coverage? What's been the biggest story or the biggest.
- [118:34]
Jordy Hayes
What's your word of the year?
- [118:35]
Katie Dayton
My word of the year Crisis.
- [118:39]
We have seen, I think, every brand right now. If you look at American Eagle, if you look at Cracker Barrel just happening in the last, you know, in the sort of a space of few months of each other. Two very similar case studies.
- [118:53]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [118:54]
Katie Dayton
Two very different accusations being leveled out there.
- [118:57]
John Coogan
Getting sucked into politics.
- [118:58]
Katie Dayton
Yeah.
- [118:58]
John Coogan
And then the crisis comms comes out.
- [119:00]
Katie Dayton
And the snowballing of it.
- [119:02]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah.
- [119:03]
Katie Dayton
And I Think now it's sort of making brands realize that nobody is safe. You know, you change your logo before the. Before for this year, I'm sure nobody.
- [119:11]
John Coogan
Really thought especially like Cracker Barrel is not. I mean it's a beloved brand, but it's not like in everyone's face constantly. It's not the Pepsi logo, which also went through a rebrand of the logo years ago and people didn't like it and I think they tweaked it and whatnot. But Cracker Barrels, it shouldn't be such a massive story. But of course the Internet can amplify everything and you can just throw everyone in crisis.
- [119:33]
Jordy Hayes
What are you looking at for 2026?
- [119:35]
Katie Dayton
I think, well, it'll be a lot more of that and I think it's going to be a lot more of brands kind of shifting their budgets maybe a little bit away from, you know, your traditional advertising into maybe some more pr. I think it's really important for brands at the moment to be owning their narrative. I think they're obsessed with that. They want to be. This is the whole reason they're all moving to substack. They're writing, they're running their own YouTube channels, their own podcasts. You know, they want to be ahead of the game. They want to be the ones that are talking about themselves before anyone else talks about.
- [120:06]
Jim Cramer
Yeah.
- [120:07]
Katie Dayton
So I think we're going to see like a big shift in like what comes looks like in general.
- [120:11]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [120:12]
Katie Dayton
Which will be quite interesting to see. And then the AI piece of it all kind of fits in with that because I think the big question is going to be do consumers care if a brand is using AI and if they do, like how badly is that going to actually affect any revenue?
- [120:29]
Jordy Hayes
Well, it's going to be interesting because it's going to happen at the ad level too because the social platforms know the political leaning of the users and it's very possible that a brand will be like, here's the product. You can figure out how to make the best ad for the end user. And then you'd have one brand with one product that's running political weeding ads this way.
- [120:50]
I do wonder, there's been some brands over the last kind of coming out of the. The kind of original Trump era that were just like right wing brands or right wing neobank. We saw, we saw some of these. I wonder if we'll see more Rifle.
- [121:05]
John Coogan
Coffee was kind of proto example. This my pillow.
- [121:07]
Jordy Hayes
I wonder if we'll see more consumer brands just like basically put the political party in the footer and just be like even more a trend that I.
- [121:16]
John Coogan
Was thinking was like more brands investing in like becoming the supplier and then just having two like faces, two brands on top. Because I think it said long term in the long, in the long arc of history, maybe the value accrues to the company that's making pillows for both the left wing and the right wing.
- [121:32]
Katie Dayton
I mean I'm sure that's probably already happening.
- [121:34]
John Coogan
It naturally happens in supply chain because no one's digging through the supply chain to figure out where their coffee beans came from.
- [121:40]
Katie Dayton
I'm surprised we haven't actually seen more sort of out and out right wing brands coming through. I mean we have, you know, the ones you mentioned. I guess they've been going down that route for a while now. And you know, given that what, 10 years ago it was a lot of brand purpose. We always used to talk about brand purpose and how it was brand purpose. Yes. And every brand had to be aligned to a big cause of some sort that kind of tended to swing to the left.
- [122:07]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah, it was like a clothing brand that was all about ocean plastic. And then I think people realized at some point or another they wanted something to buy. The majority of consumers just want to buy a great product. And so it kind of flipped back where brands stopped saying 1% of every dollar.
- [122:24]
John Coogan
Do you think any big brands will intentionally try and throw their brand into crisis? Because we see this in Silicon Valley all the time. It's rage bait marketing where a startup will come out with a video that's designed to get canceled because no one knows them and they. If they're getting canceled, sure 100,000 people might hate them, but at least if.
- [122:45]
Jordy Hayes
They would.
- [122:47]
John Coogan
Sign up, it's better than nothing.
- [122:48]
Katie Dayton
Are you talking about that black mirror one that came out a few weeks ago that was.
- [122:54]
John Coogan
There's a bot farm.
- [122:55]
Katie Dayton
Very good point.
- [122:56]
John Coogan
There was a bot farm one. There was TikTok for sports betting or gambling. There was one that was a coding environment that would let you gamble and.
- [123:04]
Jordy Hayes
Watch subway centers brain like illegal online casinos. There was.
- [123:09]
John Coogan
There was the whole Clulie saga which was a. An app that allowed you to cheat on everything. Yeah, of course people don't like cheating.
- [123:16]
Katie Dayton
I was thinking of the, you know, you know, dead relative. Oh yeah, that one was very on the nose.
- [123:24]
John Coogan
Partnered with like a Disney star. Yeah, that was crazy to the point.
- [123:28]
Katie Dayton
Where I thought this has got to be intentional. Well, or it doesn't exist and it's, you know, some kind of.
- [123:33]
John Coogan
Because I almost believe that I don't know the actual numbers, but I think American Eagle might still be up on the like as a stock even during all that chaos like they netted out. Okay.
- [123:46]
Katie Dayton
Yeah.
- [123:47]
John Coogan
And I heard some people debating whether or not Sydney Sweeney would wind up winning on the day. I don't know how much she got paid and I don't know what the long term.
- [123:57]
Katie Dayton
Yeah, I mean, that one's interesting because American Eagle and we just had one of our conferences, Craig, that cmo, you know, that line is very much like, this was truly not. It was not meant to be political. It was not that. And anyone that thought it was in the minority and it was a lot of bot traffic was driving. So, you know, and I think they came out of it. And they think they came out of it because they stood by it.
- [124:22]
Jim Cramer
Yeah.
- [124:23]
Katie Dayton
And they didn't try and roll it back and control confused the messaging and they just sort of didn't like pay too much attention to it. They didn't give it too much fuel. It kind of burnt itself out that way. I think we're going to be seeing like some more of those tactics. Whereas before, if anyone was upset brands would like immediately pull something and, you know, do the notes.
- [124:41]
Jim Cramer
Apology.
- [124:42]
Jordy Hayes
Friend of ours who's been on the show before, Lulu, Mr. V. She does comms or helps on comms for a lot of startups. She said yesterday, every media headline about a tech company is basically like this founder archetype is building the summary of your company or product. Can it overcome common skepticism? Is that like. Has that been. Is that evergreen or is that like. Do you think that kind of. Do you agree with that? Do you think that kind of format. It's like having a moment right now. I certainly have been seeing that quite a lot on like the COVID stories of different, like magazines like Forbes and Fortune.
- [125:17]
Katie Dayton
I think there was a.
- [125:18]
Jordy Hayes
There was a. There was a journal piece on Cursor recently that was like similar. It was basically like they grew from 3 to 30 billion in nine months.
- [125:27]
John Coogan
Like I'll let you answer, but I have a.
- [125:29]
Katie Dayton
Well, I think the pendulum swings. Right. So, you know, originally the press were accused of being too friendly.
- [125:34]
John Coogan
Sure.
- [125:35]
Katie Dayton
To tech.
- [125:36]
John Coogan
Sure.
- [125:36]
Katie Dayton
And then we've swung a little bit maybe. And everyone's accused of being too antagonistic.
- [125:40]
Jordy Hayes
No, it was antagonistic. I think it's swung back.
- [125:43]
John Coogan
Too friendly.
- [125:44]
Jordy Hayes
No, no, no. I just think it's like kind of healthy right now.
- [125:46]
John Coogan
Yeah, yeah, it is. It is kind of.
- [125:47]
Katie Dayton
Well, that's what I think, what's being tried. You know, they don't want to say, this is going to fail, this is terrible. These are terrible people. But they want to tell the human interest story of it. I think that's where the stories need conflict.
- [125:59]
John Coogan
And I, I know, I know friends who have time and time again been in industry, in tech, in technology, protech, and then they say, we want to Protex make stories. And what you realize is that, well, you need an antagonist in a story. And if you don't have an antagonist, you don't have a story. You don't have strife if you don't have a low point. And so when I would talk to friends who were running companies, I would say, look, I know that you've had failures. I know that you tried to raise money five years ago, you're super successful now. But five years ago you tried to raise money and the investor pulled out at the last second. And that employee that you wanted to hire said no. And the product that you released crashed and no one bought it. I know that you've been through trials and tribulations. You have two options. One is hide those and try and tell the story of everything went perfectly the whole way and it will be a boring story that no one listens to. Or you can tell the real story of the highs and lows and the ups and downs, and you'll have a riveting story that actually makes you look more heroic. Because who wants to watch Star wars without any strife, without, you know, when.
- [127:01]
Katie Dayton
You tell people that, what's their reaction?
- [127:03]
John Coogan
The good ones? The good ones totally get time. The good ones totally get it. I've been in the situation where I've told this to a founder and the founders said, like, I get it. And the comms team has been like, no, no, no, we're still trying to hide that skeleton in the closet. And I'm like, that skeleton's not that big of a skeleton. No, like you lost one contract or like one customer failed. But, you know, a lot of people are in damage control and that's their whole business. And so they're saying, don't let anything ever get out. And instead, I think the people that understand stories, understand narrative, understand just entertainment. They get that you have to. People like an underdog, people like a come from behind an up and down.
- [127:41]
Katie Dayton
And then this goes back to controlling the narrative, right? Like, put it out there, put it and weave it in as part of your talking points. Tell the story and give the journalist something to work with that has friction, like you said. Otherwise they're just going to go off and find it anyway and some disgruntled employees going to come to us.
- [127:59]
John Coogan
And I think that's the risk of trying to over control with the owned media is if your own media doesn't have any conflict ever. Because anytime something bad happens to you, you don't post.
- [128:11]
Jordy Hayes
There's a few VC podcasts lately that got into a situation and just stopped.
- [128:16]
John Coogan
Stop posting. And so like imagine if you're. If you're American Eagle or Cracker Barrel and you have a substack that you've built up or a YouTube channel and then there's a big dust up and you're just, it's the best content of the year about you. Everyone wants to hear from you. You have an audience and a channel that's ready, they're interested in American Eagle. What more would they want to know about this? And you're just like, I'm out.
- [128:36]
Katie Dayton
I think the astronomer example again this year. That's a perfect example. They went head straight.
- [128:45]
John Coogan
That was master class. Master class.
- [128:48]
Jordy Hayes
We had the founder on the founder.
- [128:50]
John Coogan
Pete. Pete, right, yeah, Pete DeJoy. Yeah, yeah, we had him on the show, on our show a little bit later.
- [128:54]
Jordy Hayes
And it was funny. We were joking because they had. The day before that controversy broke, they had published like a case study with Ramp.
- [129:01]
John Coogan
Oh yeah.
- [129:02]
Jordy Hayes
Who's our presenting sponsor. We were joking. We were like, did Ramp somehow.
- [129:09]
How many stories do you like? How many pieces do you publish a year?
- [129:13]
Katie Dayton
A year? I try and do about four to six a month, I think, whatever that average is.
- [129:18]
Jordy Hayes
And what does it take to get in the 4 to 6?
- [129:21]
Katie Dayton
I would say come with some friction. Come with a story. And I always say it doesn't have to be a huge brand. You just got to give us some numbers. The amount of people that say, I've got a great story I want to tell. We did this amazing marketing campaign.
- [129:34]
Jordy Hayes
Make it concrete.
- [129:35]
Katie Dayton
Yeah, like, well, we are. And my favorite line to use is we are the Wall Street Journal. So, you know, you gotta give us some dollar signs. I like that awesome percentage.
- [129:44]
John Coogan
This is a lesson for us. We need to. When we tell someone, well, we are tvpn, we need to know what that means. Maybe we can impress upon people, don't come with your talking points. As a conversation. We are tvpn.
- [129:55]
Jordy Hayes
Like, leave the talking points.
- [129:56]
John Coogan
You can't come with talking points because this is dvpn. We're.
- [130:00]
Katie Dayton
Leave your PR outs knocking on the window.
- [130:04]
John Coogan
We were talking to Kramer about. That's the number one thing we want to do.
- [130:08]
Jordy Hayes
Do you think we've Passed the peak of wellness. It feels like wellness is as a trend has been so impactful now that young people are proudly throwing up their hand. I don't drink alcohol. I never drink.
- [130:22]
John Coogan
Is an unwell network doing well? Isn't that easy to the same.
- [130:28]
That's the pendulum swinging back from wellness to odd. Wow.
- [130:30]
Jordy Hayes
I think you might be right, maybe. But yeah, we've just been having this debate internally, like, how durable is the trend?
- [130:37]
Katie Dayton
Well, it's funny, it's difficult because, you know, you guys live in la, I live here. I feel like. I feel I go out on a Friday night in the West Village. No one is looking very well. You know, like the kids are drinking, they're smoking. Smoking school again, apparently, you know, I think. But then the rest of the country, I don't know, I think is probably still. The wellness is probably still sort of.
- [131:00]
John Coogan
I mean, show that people aren't drinking very much. Especially in the younger demos.
- [131:05]
Jordy Hayes
Well, especially in, I mean, in restaurants.
- [131:07]
John Coogan
In restaurants.
- [131:08]
Jordy Hayes
David Chang on the show, he was talking about how a lot of restaurants are struggling just because they had this high margin revenue from alcohol that was getting tacked on to every bill that's, you know, evaporated.
- [131:20]
Katie Dayton
I mean, it's very difficult to break out and I'm sure someone has. Whether a time with the economy is like it is, is it because of you go to a restaurant, are you going to go, well, I can't really afford it, so therefore this is like the one thing I can like take off my bill or is it because I'm actually stopping drinking? And it's difficult to know that causation. But I think, you know, I've got the CMOs I speak to in the alcohol world. They all have in it a pretty not difficult time. But they, they know that change is coming and, you know, they're making little alterations and they never, if you've got an advertising budget, they've never been able to say, hey guys, drink clothes, you know, go out, have, get absolutely plastered, have a great time. So, you know, they haven't had to change their marketing too much because of that. But I think in terms of, you know, where they're showing up and how they're presenting themselves in the real world world, that will be quite interesting.
- [132:10]
John Coogan
Yeah.
- [132:14]
Jordy Hayes
Lot of other things that I'd love to talk about, but let's do it again soon.
- [132:19]
John Coogan
Yeah, let's do it again soon.
- [132:20]
Katie Dayton
Do it again.
- [132:21]
John Coogan
This is fantastic.
- [132:23]
Katie Dayton
Congratulations again.
- [132:24]
Jordy Hayes
Thank you for coming on such a special place.
- [132:28]
John Coogan
I'm enjoying these ramp these.
- [132:31]
Jordy Hayes
Good call. Not lighting a fire, even a candle.
- [132:34]
John Coogan
In you can tell that I'm not a pyromaniac because a pyromaniac.
- [132:38]
Jordy Hayes
It's just one match.
- [132:38]
John Coogan
Exactly. It's just one match.
- [132:40]
Jordy Hayes
What about one more?
- [132:42]
John Coogan
Burn your receipts, Times money, save both. I like these. These are very fun.
- [132:46]
Jordy Hayes
Well, how much time do we have to do timeline? We are going to an event later.
- [132:52]
John Coogan
Let's do another 20. 10 minutes.
- [132:53]
Jordy Hayes
From Lulu. I haven't seen these. She says it's worth signing up for Blueprint just to study the marketing emails. They're fun and easy to read. Read no corpo slop. Educational. So you're getting useful info rather than just being marketed to. Great at building trust through transparent and proactive communication. Why Brian and Kate? Write them personally and you can pull some of these up.
- [133:15]
I do think that it's possible that Brian Johnson is the best marketer in the world right now. He's competing and like actually, you know, the team are like innovating at a bunch of different levels. Like just like in creating.
- [133:34]
You know, plenty of people like you know, want to critique him or disagree with his philosophy or approach or whatever. But as a business person you have to appreciate how he just makes. Finds a way to make him the center of a lot of attention. Pretty much every single organic king of organic. And I know that I'm sure they spend a ton on traditional ads too for Blueprint.
- [133:58]
John Coogan
It's going to be a monster business. And he has a CEO in the seat right now too, right? Didn't he hire? Yeah, or maybe he was going to hire but like there's going to be some operating.
- [134:07]
Jordy Hayes
Somebody was claiming that his whole relationship with Kate was just a marketing stunt. And it's like you said that about.
- [134:13]
John Coogan
So many celebrities throughout the. Throughout the years. Yeah, all sorts of all sorts.
- [134:17]
Jordy Hayes
There's definitely precedent for it about it in. In other news, did you see their.
- [134:23]
John Coogan
K trucks are coming back?
- [134:24]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah. So something about.
- [134:28]
Basically eliminating like Biden.
- [134:29]
John Coogan
People are saying that. So, so. So the news is that apparently you'll be able to buy a very small truck soon which is a thing in Japan supposedly not has been made illegal.
- [134:42]
Jordy Hayes
Yeah. So they were Biden era vehicles. Fuel efficiency rules.
- [134:45]
John Coogan
I feel like you haven't been able to buy one of these in a long time and it never made sense because it should be the most efficient.
- [134:50]
Jordy Hayes
The rule called for a yearly 2% efficiency increase for cars made from 2027 to 2031.
- [134:56]
John Coogan
Just took a lot of these off.
- [134:57]
Jordy Hayes
The road and yeah, it's the cafe, the Corporate average fuel economy standard.
- [135:05]
John Coogan
The quote is so ridiculous. Here we're officially terminating Joe Biden's ridiculous, ridiculously burdensome, horrible actually CAFE standards that impose expensive restrictions and all sorts of problems. Gave all sorts of problems.
- [135:18]
Jordy Hayes
I wonder if this will drive people back to Tesla and saying like I, I bought this after Elon went crazy and then Trump went.
- [135:29]
John Coogan
And then Trump brought in these. I don't know.
- [135:31]
Jordy Hayes
I don't know. I do think it's if, if I mean the real loser here, I would say some people would say the environment but potentially more direct is that company like Slate Auto trying to make a $20,000 truck. Meanwhile, these manufacturers have been making the $20,000 truck.
- [135:49]
John Coogan
Yep.
- [135:49]
Jordy Hayes
@ scale and they're super.
- [135:52]
John Coogan
Reliable. But I mean Americans have just voted with their wallets they do not want a two door truck. It's just, it's never worked like the Land Rover Rover Defender. There's, there's so many examples of two two door SUVs that have just.
- [136:07]
Jordy Hayes
Not gotten traction like the.
- [136:09]
John Coogan
Nissan. The Nissan Murano Cross Cross Cabriolet also never took.
- [136:13]
Jordy Hayes
Off. But even with, with true enthusiasts, of.
- [136:16]
John Coogan
Course. Even the, the Range Rover Evoque is a two door suv. I believe not done. Well, I'm very interested to see two or G.
- [136:24]
Jordy Hayes
Wagons. Do you think we're. There's some that I would love to.
- [136:29]
John Coogan
Own. Yes. But they're not exactly flying off the shelves. They're not being stocked on dealer lots because realistically you're gonna be like ah, I'd love the two door. But then you think about your family and you're like I need the four door. And that's what everyone does. And that's why every Ford F154.
- [136:44]
Jordy Hayes
Doors.
- [136:46]
Did you see that? Adam.
- [136:47]
John Coogan
Friedman. This is a hilarious bit by.
- [136:48]
Jordy Hayes
Adam. This is like a really good bit. I'm surprised that this is the first time somebody has like done this bit so well. He was asked to Vulture asked him a question on their year end culture roundup about a TV show that this, that Charles here is assuming he hasn't seen. And the question is, was Bertha on the Gilded Age right to marry Gladys off to the Duke? Bertha Russell wasn't exactly wrong for marrying Gladys off to the Duke. At least not by Gilded Age standards. But she was morally compromised in that world. Marriage was a strategic move, a way to cement social status and gain acceptance from old money elites who still look down on her family's new wealth. To Bertha, securing a Duke as a son in law wasn't just about ego. It was Survival, a declaration that she conquered the very remarkable that tried to exclude her.
- [137:40]
Incredible.
- [137:40]
John Coogan
Bit.
- [137:42]
And then they amplified it because they did a, they did a video interviewing him, confronting him about it. And so Vulture has just done a great job drawing attention to their culture. Roddy 50, which I would not have been following this year. And now I want to see the other 50. So hats off to them for that.
- [138:01]
Jordy Hayes
Project. In other news, Pomp is announcing a historic decision at BRR. Yes, 100% of this is his digital digital asset Treasury. He's got.
- [138:12]
John Coogan
Bitcoin. Bitcoin. He's going to buy bitcoin and then buy companies that produce more bitcoin or.
- [138:16]
Jordy Hayes
Something. Yeah, 100% of equity compensation for the CEO, me and the board of directors will be tied to performance milestones. Boards shouldn't be making millions of dollars unless retail shareholders are also winning. Now that I am charged, I am in charge of a public company. I hope to set the standard for what true shareholder alignment looks like. I, I do believe this was in reaction to an activist investor that accumulated around.
- [138:39]
John Coogan
7%. Did he also set his milestone to 10 trillion? He doesn't get a dime unless it's 10.
- [138:45]
Jordy Hayes
Trillion. I can, I can see that he's, he's a.
- [138:47]
John Coogan
Permeable. That would.
- [138:48]
Jordy Hayes
Be. I don't think he's ever flipped bearish this whole year.
- [138:52]
John Coogan
No. Anyways, I mean this is good. And the interesting. And the interesting iteration on this is that it's. Elon has set himself up with the equity compensation tied to share price, which went very well the first time and now he set himself up to do it again with Tesla. And what's interesting here is that with Pomp's BRR ticker, he. It's not just him, it's also the board of directors. And I think that at Tesla that's not the case. And so he's saying I'm taking it one step further. Now I'm still interested to see what are the targets like, because if you're like, you know, hey, the stock moves 2%, I get $100 million. People are going to be excited about that. But if you design those equity comp packages appropriately, obviously it's totally a win, win, win. So everyone can be very happy about.
- [139:40]
Jordy Hayes
That. Yeah. And we'll see how it does once, you know. Again, a lot of these digital asset treasury companies have performed horribly recently and.
- [139:50]
John Coogan
Unclear. Marvin was, Marvin was texting.
- [139:52]
Jordy Hayes
Me. Okay, so Marvin, Marvin, Marvin Von Hagen is going. He's the founder of Timeline Poke, which is a social AI that lives in your messages, he says, saw a TechCrunch tweet six weeks ago that Meta is trying to ban Poke. He said he directly asked for help on Twitter. Got a lot of intros, talked to the European Commission. EU officially opened an antitrust investigation today. X is unreal. He really.
- [140:24]
Is kind of met his worst nightmare today. Just directing. He's basically. Are you really that surprised that Martin Von Hagen is.
- [140:34]
John Coogan
Fully. Marvin, Marvin, sorry.
- [140:36]
Jordy Hayes
Sorry. Marvin von Hagen is pulling the strings of the eu. But.
- [140:42]
John Coogan
Anyways.
- [140:45]
Pretty interesting. Well, good luck to him. We'll have to have him on the.
- [140:48]
Jordy Hayes
Show. Matt Slotnick says maybe the best quote I've ever heard in an earnings call from Benioff. Quote, we did 3.2 trillion tokens. Let Bilbo Baggins know that we've got adoption and usages happening here. That was just a shout out to jrr. Token, token.
- [141:07]
That is so good. Of course he's firing shots at carp.
- [141:11]
John Coogan
Carpet. That is.
- [141:12]
Jordy Hayes
Hilarious. That is one of.
- [141:14]
John Coogan
The. And he also made one at Oracle. What does he.
- [141:16]
Jordy Hayes
Say? Dig out of left to Oracle. Matt says, make sure everybody realizes we're not building data center. We're preserving our gross margins and cash flows and using the data centers that are being.
- [141:26]
John Coogan
Built. Love it. I love.
- [141:29]
Jordy Hayes
It. Nir says, today I learned I use more tokens than Salesforce.
- [141:32]
John Coogan
Does. Yeah, I mean, we didn't get into this with Kramer, but the token thing, this could go so fantastically wrong if it turns into eyeballs. Like imagine if there's companies going out and publicly they're talking about their token multiples. It's like, yeah, we generate 100 trillion tokens and so of course we should be a billion dollar company. And it's like you're looking at dollars of market cap per million tokens of generation. Something like.
- [142:03]
Jordy Hayes
That. I don't think we're going to get.
- [142:03]
John Coogan
There. I hope.
- [142:04]
Jordy Hayes
Not. I think there is a preced in through the.
- [142:06]
John Coogan
Eyeball. But you could, you could do that and you could think of that as a proxy. Of course, the correct proxy is. Is revenue and we should stay in that world. But you never.
- [142:15]
Jordy Hayes
Know. Yeah, you never know. Buco Capital says according to Jack Dorsey, Zuckerberg kills goats with a laser gun and eats.
- [142:21]
John Coogan
Them. This is. It's so.
- [142:24]
Jordy Hayes
Funny. He. The question was, what was your most memorable encounter with Zuck? Well, there was a year when he was only eating what he was killing. He made goat for me for dinner. He killed the goat in front of you? No, he killed it before. I guess he kills it. He kills it With a laser gun and then a knife. Then they send it to the butcher. A laser gun? I don't know. A stun gun. They stun it and then he knifed it. Then they sent it to the butcher, evidently, in Palo Alto. And then the quote drops.
- [142:50]
John Coogan
Off. Imagine you have your buddy over and you're like, hey, look, I run a social network. You ran a rival social network for a long time. I run Facebook. You ran.
- [142:58]
Jordy Hayes
Twitter. Let's.
- [142:59]
John Coogan
Just. Let's just hang.
- [142:59]
Jordy Hayes
Out. I'm gonna show.
- [143:00]
John Coogan
You. No, no, no. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I'm gonna show you a little bit of my culture, bro. Culture. You're a hippie. You got hippie.
- [143:08]
Jordy Hayes
Culture. I got a bitcoin guy. You're the.
- [143:09]
John Coogan
Bitcoin. You're the bitcoin.
- [143:10]
Jordy Hayes
Guy. Costa Rican bitcoin.
- [143:12]
John Coogan
Guy. I'm the UFC guy. I like to kill goats myself, but, you know, you're not supposed to go leak it. What's going on, Jack? Come.
- [143:19]
Jim Cramer
On. Come.
- [143:20]
Jordy Hayes
On. I was off the.
- [143:21]
John Coogan
Record. I showed you my clothes. Culture. In.
- [143:24]
Jordy Hayes
Confidence. What happens in Palo Alto? What happens at the goat. The goat farm stays at the goat.
- [143:29]
John Coogan
Farm. Apparently not. Also hilarious, by the.
- [143:32]
Jordy Hayes
Way. We figured out that somebody on the show that's come on multiple times has hundreds of.
- [143:39]
John Coogan
Goats. Oh.
- [143:40]
Jordy Hayes
Yes. And nobody knows about this. And people keep talking about the goat debate, this or.
- [143:44]
John Coogan
That. The goat.
- [143:44]
Jordy Hayes
Debate. And we were talking about. And they're saying they need to keep quiet because there's a.
- [143:49]
John Coogan
Real. Real goat.
- [143:50]
Jordy Hayes
Collector. There's a real goat.
- [143:51]
John Coogan
Collector. A real goatherd. That's right, A goatherd. What else we.
- [143:55]
Jordy Hayes
Got? This is interesting. Google taps replit in challenge to anthropic and cursor.
- [144:05]
Somewhat surprising considering that Google's going really heavy with anti gravity. But I think.
- [144:12]
John Coogan
Replit. Google's invested in replication replit for a long time, like they did. They did a partnership or investment back before Amjad was making a couple million bucks in.
- [144:22]
Jordy Hayes
Revenue. Is capital tiny in.
- [144:24]
John Coogan
Replit? Yes. Yes. I'm almost positive that Google has invested in replit at some point. We should look it up. But we're doing the fake news now. We're done with the news. It's fake news. It's the fake news hour. But congrats to Amjad on doing a deal with Google. I wonder how that will manifest, because you are kind of competing with a lot of the folks at AI Studio, and there's a lot of different pieces of the Gemini team that you're kind of dealing with. But at the same time, Replit is a unique product and Replit.
- [145:01]
Has never been a foundation model company. And so it does make a lot of sense to. I actually like this a lot in the sense that where has Google been fantastic model development? Where have they been a little bit less speedy on the product rollout side, getting the product in the hands of people. Amjad's great at that. The Replit team's great at that. So you put them together and maybe it makes a lot of sense, but it's still just early.
- [145:25]
Jordy Hayes
Days. Two final posts. One, we missed this.
- [145:28]
John Coogan
Yesterday. We have another.
- [145:30]
Jordy Hayes
Gong. Paul and the team over at Antifund have raised Jeff. Jeff Woo have raised a new fund. 330.
- [145:41]
John Coogan
Million.
- [145:43]
Jordy Hayes
Almost. I almost said. I almost said 300 million. I'm sure they'll. I'm sure they'll be there soon. But they are, they say they're pred account industry leaders like OpenAI Anduril, ramp cognition and physical.
- [145:54]
John Coogan
Intelligence. But look at this 20 minute video. This is an interesting switch of a launch video. It's shot on the.
- [146:01]
Jordy Hayes
Camera. We were saying this, we were saying this like a year ago. Like the way that we told some company. I remember, I remember the, I think I was saying to you have to say you. Yeah, I was saying to Zach, we were talking to Zach Dell. He didn't end up doing this, but I was like do the 20 minute launch video, right? Like do a video.
- [146:18]
John Coogan
That. Well, you have a different idea that you should not leave because I have that idea. But I love that this, I love that this happened the way it did. And I think that this is a good.
- [146:27]
Jordy Hayes
Format. And they're wearing suits. And they're wearing.
- [146:29]
John Coogan
Suits. I think there's probably two to three more of these that will happen. I mean this does in some way mirror the Jony I've Sam Altman video of like them getting coffee together. And like there's these interesting things of like they're not launching a podcast together. They're just dropping a one off conversation that's edited kind of framing some of the history explaining it. It's a really clear whatever to communicate. And of course because these guys are master communicators, they understand media and so very excited. And What a portfolio. OpenAI anderal ramp.
- [146:57]
Jordy Hayes
Cognition. There's 1% that will go unnamed that links all of those companies.
- [147:01]
John Coogan
Together. Fantastic. You know the fantastic.
- [147:03]
Jordy Hayes
Performance. You know the.
- [147:03]
John Coogan
Person. Of course I.
- [147:04]
Jordy Hayes
Do. Final post. Jeff Woo from Tanay Taney. Sorry. He's highlighting a company called.
- [147:12]
John Coogan
Plod. Plod this is so never heard of.
- [147:14]
Jordy Hayes
Apparently. But it sounds like they're absolutely ripping the most successful. They said wearables were cooked, but Plod Records transcribes in summer. Of course, it's another meeting. Summarizing.
- [147:25]
John Coogan
Product. It's a physical.
- [147:26]
Jordy Hayes
Product. 1 million units sold largely to doctors, lawyers and sales people. 250 million of annualized revenue bootstrapped and now profitable.
- [147:36]
John Coogan
Literally. And it's crazy. Like no, no, no drama, no launch videos, no crazy high hype, no no rage bait. Just building in silence. We got to get this.
- [147:46]
Jordy Hayes
Guy. They raised around $5 million. But sure.
- [147:49]
John Coogan
Sure. You know, I think the more important thing is just that, is that hardware is hard and we see a lot of corpses in the, in the consumer electronics world. But there are also major breakout successes. The Oura ring, for example. Like, what a remarkable company to just show up doing revenue at their scale seemingly out of nowhere. Woop. Has done really well. And there's something. Yeah, aura. That's what I was mentioning. And then this new company, this meeting summarizer, fantastic and interesting. We just haven't heard a.
- [148:28]
Jordy Hayes
Pitch. I'm so curious to know what this does so well that your phone can't do in an.
- [148:33]
John Coogan
App.
- [148:34]
I mean, I don't know. We'll have to ask them. We'll have to get the pound error. Maybe we'll have to buy one, test it.
- [148:40]
Jordy Hayes
Out. Well, thank you for tuning in. Thank you for tuning in from the video. We missed you in the chat, but we will see you.
- [148:47]
John Coogan
Tomorrow. We'll be back.
- [148:48]
Jordy Hayes
Tomorrow. And thank you again to the Nicee team for hosting us. As always, totally surreal to be here. And thank you to everybody that has made this possible by tuning in, enjoying the show and supporting us. However you have. So have a wonderful evening and we will see you.
- [149:06]
John Coogan
Tomorrow. Thank.
- [149:07]
Jordy Hayes
You. Take.
- [149:07]
John Coogan
Care. Good night.