A (2:50)

It is kind of interesting. They don't. I just looked it up. They don't run ads on how old is Leonardo DiCaprio. You'd think that they could figure out some type of ad to serve. Yeah.

B (2:59)

You think Brian Johnson would be buying.

A (3:00)

An ad like some peptide because you're.

B (3:02)

Like, oh, he looks great and what's he doing? Oh, and then look like Leo. He's 51.

A (3:06)

Leo was born in the 70s, which is crazy when you say it like that.

B (3:10)

Yeah, well, he's looking great. He was at the Golden Globes having fun, celebrating his movie.

A (3:16)

Goofing around.

B (3:17)

Yeah, yeah, he was goofing around. He was caught on, like some mic looking at somebody. I don't know. I saw some random clips anyway, but the real thing I wanted to debate with Tyler was I was arguing that Siri needs an app. It's crazy. Siri came out in 2010, hasn't had an app for its entire life. I mean, it actually started as Nap back in the day. It was Siri is from the Stanford Institute of Research and Intelligence or something like that.

A (3:44)

Yeah. What was it? It was like a $200 million acquisition.

B (3:47)

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know, seems like good value. Before we keep digging into Siri, let me tell you about Vanta Automate Compliance and Security. Vanta is the leading AI trust management platform. So it was an app that you needed to install on your iPhone. There were a few of these speech recognition apps that you could go and you'd open up the app, click a button. Siri, because I think the fact that they were on the west coast, was able to get the deepest integration in Apple, sort of win the home button over time, win the Siri button. And eventually they teamed up and actually, oh, I have triggered Siri on my Mac.

A (4:25)

There you go.

B (4:25)

Fantastic. And so eventually, Siri gets baked into the operating system level, and the rest is history. The first couple of years are pretty good. People are excited. It was somewhat magical to be able to just press a button, ask for the weather, ask for a stock chart, ask for what's on your calendar, dictate a text message. A lot of that was pretty great. The user numbers are interesting. I don't know how much they disclosed this is sort of a rumored number, but the estimates are around 500 million active Siri users globally. Which is huge. Absolutely massive. But there's 1.5 billion iPhone users, so having only a third of your user base use your AI feature seems a little bit low if that's the case.

A (5:15)

Ian Mackey says in the X chat Siri was born out of Sri sri.

B (5:20)

Yeah, sri, which I believe is Stanford, the Stanford Research Institute or something like that. I think that's where SRI comes from. But they're clearly not getting enough out of it. People aren't using it. Everyone in Texas, I never use Siri. Obviously some people do use Siri.

A (5:36)

Well, some people are using it now because we're saying Siri chat said we triggered it.

B (5:40)

We triggered it.

A (5:41)

Sorry about that too.

B (5:42)

Anyway, so obviously juicing it up with an LLM like Gemini makes a ton of sense. Of course, Gemini is a sponsor of this show, Gemini 3 Pro. It's Google's most intelligent model yet. They got state of the art reasoning, next level vibe coding, and deep multimodal understanding. But this deal between Google and Apple makes a ton of sense for a few reasons. Google's actually profitable, has the money. They don't need to take a huge amount of cash from Apple. They can give them sort of a deal on it because it's really fun.

A (6:19)

Ben kept throwing around big numbers yesterday. Like, let's be honest, we're in tech.

B (6:23)

It's not a lot of money.

A (6:24)

Yeah, it's actually true.

B (6:25)

It ramped up because at first it was the $30,000 DaVinci Resolve, the Blackmagic Ursa immersive camera. That's $30,000. He's like, that's nothing. You just put those over. And that's true for a tech company. And he was like, you know, Apple's paying Google a billion dollars.

C (6:41)

That's nothing.

B (6:41)

It's like they're both nothing.

A (6:43)

Yeah, the whole thing with The Alphabet's.

B (6:46)

A $4 trillion company.

A (6:47)

Now the live. The infrastructure, the hardware to do a live Apple Vision Pro broadcast, being $30,000 or something in that range is like the fact that they could copy and paste that around every stadium and suddenly have like a. Probably. I imagine they could scale that to hundreds of millions of dollars of like, you'd think so.

B (7:07)

Pay per view and stuff.

A (7:08)

Yeah, yeah, not even pay per view, but just a subscription.

B (7:11)

Even just selling headsets. I mean, the headset's $3,500. You only need to sell 10 headsets to offset the price of one immersive camera be able to do that. Anyway, we covered the Apple Vision Pro in detail yesterday. Ben Thompson joined the stream. You should go check out the video if you haven't watched that. And he actually gave us a shout out. He mentioned his appearance in the Stratechary Daily Update today, which is very fun. So my take is that I think over time this will flip. And I think over time, Google will be paying Apple for all of the LLM routing that happens because Google will be monetizing those queries. You will go to Siri and you will say, what's the weather? And Gemini under the hood will tell you the weather. And they probably won't monetize that very well. But then every once in a while, you'll say, hey, Gemini, order me a new tv. And it'll say, what size do you want?

A (8:04)

And it'll just order me rain Rainmaker.

B (8:06)

Yeah, yeah. Change the weather. And they will get either an affiliate fee or. Or a transaction fee or there will be an ad that's placed in the stream of content that comes back. And I would imagine that right now Apple's saying, don't do any of those ads. Don't monetize these queries. But over time, I imagine that they will. But the big thing that I wanted to discuss with Tyler, who was fighting me on this, he says that Siri does not need an app. I think that Siri will need an app. I think that the LLM chat interface is so dominant at this point that everyone has the experience of going back and forth forth asynchronously. Like it's chatting to a helpful assistant. Like you're texting with a friend. You want to be able to scroll up and see.

A (8:51)

Yeah. If you think about it, it'd be very annoying if you had a real life assistant and they were like, you can only call me. Well, I won't.

B (8:57)

Tyler, explain. Explain your position.

C (8:59)

So it's not that.

B (9:02)

Oh, no, you flashbanged him, hit him with a flashback. So he's trying to help you out.

A (9:08)

John, Opinion denied. Tyler, opinion denied.

B (9:12)

We have a flashback now on the stream. What good timing. So, Tyler, once the flashbang wears off, please tell us. Okay.

C (9:21)

So it's not that. I disagree. I'm not like anti app. It's just like the fifth most important thing that they need to do.

B (9:27)

Okay.

C (9:28)

I don't care. Okay. Would you rather have the same Siri, but there's also an app or a new Siri? There's no app.

A (9:35)

It's a better model.

C (9:36)

Obviously, you're picking the latter, yeah, you're.

B (9:37)

Picking the better model. But what I'm saying is that as soon as you integrate a better model that has more, he's gonna flashbang again.

A (9:45)

I'm too powerful.

B (9:46)

I'm watching this. So as soon as you have deeper responses and more back and forth and more knowledge retrieval, Siri has, they had Wolfram Alpha integration. I think they had a Wikipedia integration for a little bit, but it was more just like pulling up a Wikipedia snippet and then you would either open that, if you want to go deeper, you would open that webpage in Safari and look at the actual Wikipedia. Now there is new context and new content that's being created on the fly by these models because you can ask questions that don't exist in a single Wikipedia page. Gemini under the hood in Siri will instantiate that for you, give you those paragraphs. And you might not be able to read through all of that in one screen time session. You might get a text message, need to answer it. You might get a phone call. You might have to put your phone down to keep doing whatever you're doing and you want to come back to it. And so yes, you could just say your prompt again and reinstantiate it all. But that takes time. These models are slow, especially if you're firing off a deep research report.

C (10:48)

I mean like, yes, like these are. I agree that these are important things, but these are like far from the most important thing. I could just say, okay, if I'm asking about chips, yesterday we have this long conversation and then I say, okay, yesterday we were talking about chips. Let's continue that conversation. That's that whole thing solved now.

B (11:05)

Yes, so. So that is a. That would be amazing. But the current chat apps don't even have that functionality. If you go to a new chat box.

C (11:13)

Yeah, but you could very easily implement that. There are on all the. Okay.

D (11:16)

On Claude, on ChatGPT, you can search.

C (11:18)

Through your past chats.

B (11:19)

Do you know how bad the search is? The search is not.

C (11:22)

Life's not in the search.

B (11:23)

It's not that good.

C (11:23)

Good.

B (11:24)

It's not that good.

C (11:24)

Okay, well they could not.

B (11:25)

It's not actually an LLM query. It's not, it's not just. You're talking about something like you're talking with a friend. You have to use keywords like you're back in like traditional search world. You don't just go to the same empty box and say, hey, remember when we were talking about the fall of the Roman Empire? Pull all that up. It doesn't do that.

C (11:46)

Okay, sure. But I don't think that's that hard to implement. You just put them in embedding models.

B (11:50)

But we're talking about Siri here. It can barely pull up the weather. Like we're going from like a D tier product to now we're baking in a new model, Gemini. Yeah, but it's going to take it to like B.

C (12:00)

The implementation of the model is way more important than if the app work. If I can like search through it correctly. Yeah.

D (12:07)

The implementation of the model is like.

C (12:09)

Not a trivial thing. Like you have to get a lot of things correct.

B (12:11)

What do you mean? Like, what about it?

C (12:15)

Like if you.

B (12:16)

You mean like the APIs and the hooks and like the tools that it will be able to use within the iOS ecosystem.

C (12:21)

Yeah. For it to be like smooth, for it to be like a good product, like you have to be like fast.

B (12:25)

I mean, to give that are more.

C (12:26)

Important than being able to search through yesterday's metadata.

B (12:29)

Yes, yes. And I think that's why the language is like, is Gemini derived models, Gemini distilled models. Because they do want to be able to run something that's like Gemini but on device. And obviously they have great hardware for that. Apple Silicon. And then also they've actually built out really solid APIs across the entire iOS stack since they have that shortcut functionality which is woefully underutilized. But that was initially designed to be working with. It was initially designed to plug into Siri. So you should be able to order an Uber with Siri or order DoorDash with Siri or all of that didn't really take off in terms of Siri usage, but the APIs are there, so I think the implementation should be fairly simple. Or do you think they need some sort of RL environment?

C (13:17)

I don't know. I mean it's just like. So ok, if you're doing a deep research, are we even sure that that is. Do you want to be using Siri for that? Maybe it's just better to do it. Whenever I do deep research, I never do it on the app. I'm always on my laptop.

B (13:31)

Nerd alert.

C (13:32)

Because it's just way more information dense. There's a bunch of links that I want to click on in order to.

B (13:36)

Do that on the Internet, people definitely fire off deep research reports. Their phone, maybe they go read them later on their laptop. But we live in a mobile first world and that's the Apple customer base. Siri customers are going to ask long questions that get long answers and they're going to want to come back to those from time to time. And where else will they do that other than an app with the neatly organized? Also, you can't even remember. Part of what's cool about these apps is that if I pull out the sidebar, I can scroll through and I can remember. Oh, wow. I was looking at, you know, the, the NBA's history and, you know, their attendance over different. I don't even remember firing this off. When did I ask about this? But like, I did and now I can go back and enjoy the fruits of its labor and I can enjoy it.

C (14:24)

Yeah. But I think there's so many more things that are important.

A (14:27)

Like, okay, even if.

C (14:28)

Okay, so they're using Gemini.

B (14:30)

Yeah.

C (14:30)

Like what would you rather have? Would you rather have Gemini 2.5 and an app or Gemini 3 and no app?

B (14:35)

It's not a trade off. They're getting the best Gemini, obviously.

C (14:39)

Okay, clearly.

B (14:39)

And then also the app is coming. That's what I'm saying.

C (14:42)

Apple is bad at implementing AI.

B (14:43)

Yes.

C (14:44)

Do you agree with that?

B (14:46)

They have been to date, yes.

C (14:47)

Okay.

B (14:48)

Yeah. No one debates that. Apple Intelligence was sort of botched.

C (14:51)

So I think there is definitely a case to be made that they need to prioritize certain things and the implementation of the actual model. Like them using the best model. That's going to be fast. It's going to, like, maybe on Siri, people are used to having fairly short responses. You don't want paragraphs and paragraphs unless you ask for it.

B (15:03)

Okay.

C (15:04)

Stuff like this is, I think, much more important than having specific app.

B (15:07)

Yes. And I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, truthfully, developing the type of app that I'm discussing about Siri, like, it should be able to be one shot by cloud code. It's super simple.

A (15:17)

Right, let's pull up.

B (15:19)

But what are the probability that you think an app comes out this year for Siri? Yes.

C (15:26)

I think it's probably pretty high.

B (15:28)

So what's wrong with my logic then?

E (15:30)

No, I agree with you.

A (15:31)

I'm not disagreeing. Someone in the chat said they already have a Siri app internally. Oh, interesting. We're getting a little idea if that's true.

B (15:39)

Okay, wait, I want to move on to whatever you want to say, but first I want to tell you about Fin AI, the number one AI agent for customer service. If you want AI to handle your customer support, go to Fin AI.

C (15:50)

Okay, let me say one more.

B (15:51)

Yes.

C (15:51)

Okay.

A (15:51)

So I'm just saying, like, I'm about to flashbang you.

C (15:54)

Okay. If you're like writing this. Who's the audience? Like Apple, right? You want to make a change?

D (15:58)

Yeah, maybe.

C (15:59)

Okay, so it's like Ben Thompson comes on yesterday.

B (16:02)

All I'm saying is that is that is that I'm excited for. I'm excited to be able to access Gemini with a button. I feel like that's what this deal is giving me.

C (16:10)

Yeah, that's nothing to do with an app.

B (16:12)

But also after I access Gemini with this button that trigger flashbang, then I want to be able to see my list. Lambda Lambda is the superintelligence cloud building AI supercomputers for training and inference that scale from one GPU to hundreds of thousands. Wait, you have a sound cue for Lambda now?

A (16:46)

Yes, I do. Pull up this clip from Gary Tan testifying in the Senate.

B (16:50)

Okay. Okay, let's see about who here actually uses Siri.

F (16:53)

I personally do not because I know.

B (16:56)

That it does not have the cutting edge technology that I don't get along well with her.

C (17:00)

Yeah, Exactly.

F (17:02)

Anthropic or OpenAI or many other American labs could provide.

B (17:07)

And imagine if Apple opened it up.

D (17:11)

So that similar to when you open.

B (17:13)

Windows, you have to choose a browser. What if you choose your AI agent? Then there are a billion consumers in the world who would suddenly have access to not just one self preference Siri, but a variety of American labs.

D (17:30)

And that would open up investment, that would open up prosperity.

B (17:35)

I like this. The true book with the end card. When is that from? Is that recent?

A (17:41)

Ian is on an absolute tear. See over Huber.

B (17:44)

Thank you, Ian.

A (17:45)

He says Apple's currently hiring 300 Siri focused roles.

B (17:49)

They're going big, they're going to do everything. You don't think one of those is an app developer?

C (17:54)

Okay, no, let me just finish it. Okay, so you think that's intentional?

A (17:58)

You think that's intentional? Like you know, kind of a reference to the movie 300.

B (18:03)

Their last stand against against the 10,000 ChatGPT employees. I will let you respond, but first I'm going to tell you about graphite.dev. code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub higher quality software faster.

A (18:18)

That's right.

B (18:18)

Continue.

C (18:19)

Okay. Okay. So Ben Thompson came on yesterday and he said he wants one thing. Okay, he doesn't to change the Apple Vision Pro. He doesn't want, oh, a new productivity feature or oh, I want to be able to FaceTime my friend while watching the NBA game. All he wants is to edit. To remove all the edits from the NBA game.

B (18:34)

Yes, yes.

C (18:35)

You have to choose one thing you have. So if the audience is Apple, like, what I want them to know is like, you guys need to pick the right model. You need to implement it. Well, it's not. I don't care about the app.

A (18:46)

Okay.

C (18:46)

That's like way later.

B (18:47)

Sure, sure, sure, sure. Yeah, I hear you. I think that makes some sense, but I don't think it's as much of a trade off as you think it is. I mean, they did just for Apple Intelligence, they did like six different things. They had, like the generated. They had a whole bunch of different things. Visual intelligence, they've had a variety of products. None of them really hit exactly. Is there one that was good?

C (19:11)

They need to choose one thing that's good?

B (19:13)

One that was good? I don't know, but I'm ready to move the goal posts. Ready to move the goalposts. We have the goalposts. So my new definition for Apple, AGI, Apple Intelligence, Apple Superintelligence, Apple Super Intelligence.

A (19:27)

It's just a functioning search function feature in imessage.

B (19:32)

That would be very good.

A (19:33)

That's AGI for Apple.

B (19:34)

That's asi. No, my definition is I want to be able to go to the new Siri. And so I got an iPad, and the iPad just accidentally installed, like every app that I've ever installed on my phone. On the iPad, which wouldn't be that bad because on my phone I have one home screen and then I have a second screen, and then the third screen is just the app library and it just has a search box. And then the app library actually very intelligently organizes things into productivity, utilities, entertainment. It does all that for me. I don't need to organize it. I don't choose where things go. It knows if it's a creativity app or travel app or a news app, it puts it in its correct category. I don't need to manage that. So it's great. I have a whole bunch of apps on my phone and they're all organized. For some reason, the iPad was just like, let's do pages and pages and pages of all these apps on actual screens. And there's no rhyme or reason to them. And I want to organize them all into a logical format. But I think I'd have to go and at least remove all of them from home screen one at a time. It would be like thousands of taps to get rid of all of them. Probably take me like 10 to 20 minutes. It's annoying. It's not gonna happen. I just won't do it. But it's a good test of agentic AI to be able to with a single prompt. One shot. Hey, clean up the whole desktop. Because we're seeing that today with Claude Cowork. Cowork is the name, not co worker. Claude Coworker.

D (21:02)

Okay.

B (21:02)

Claude Cowork. A lot of people are having fun installing Claude Cowork and then saying, hey, go clean up my desktop. Organize it now. Who knows if this is valuable? I don't think you care about clean desktops. Are you a messy guy?

A (21:14)

I really don't. I did see a post, somebody was like, wow, Claude Cowork cleaned up all the files on my desktop. This is going to change everything. And I was thinking, you know, every once in a while I'll clean up the files on my desktop. But it's never once changed anything. Everything.

B (21:29)

Yeah, no, usually I just make a folder with like archive and in fact.

A (21:33)

I just drag everything. I don't find it.

B (21:35)

And I do that again and again and again.

A (21:38)

Like if it was really important, we'd probably have somebody on the team that was like just really good at organizing desktops.

G (21:44)

Sure.

B (21:44)

And now we do cloud co work.

A (21:45)

Yeah, I guess organizing.

B (21:46)

But I want to be able to. But I do think, as trivial as that example is, I think it's a good example of what an agentic system should be able to do if it has the proper hooks into the OS layer to. Claude Cowork can do it on desktop. What's the iOS equivalent of that? It's got to be Apple Intelligence. They have their walled garden. The walls are staying up. They're not letting Claude Cowork go around your iOS installation and hook into all your different local APIs. That's the domain of Apple Intelligence. That's the domain of Siri. Siri is now powered by Gemini. It should be able to do this. Let's see if that's what they launch and that's the model implementation that you're talking about. And that's what I agree with you on. I just think there will also be an app.

C (22:25)

Okay, yeah, but like the former is much more important than the latter.

B (22:29)

Yes, I agree.

A (22:29)

We're moving on. The Terminator called all of this back in November. So anyways, this isn't even new news, but we should.

B (22:37)

It's now official. We got to give it up for Mark Gurman though.

A (22:40)

The German athlete. Germinators back on the calendar. We're going to have him on.

B (22:45)

Can't wait to catch up. John Ternus is in the news too. We'll get to that. First, let me tell you about Sentry. Sentry shows developers what's broken and helps them fix it fast. That's why 150,000 organizations use it to keep their apps working.

A (23:01)

150K.

B (23:02)

That's a lot.

A (23:02)

That's a lot.

B (23:03)

Apple ran a blind test of Frontier models and picked Gemini. Interesting. And there's this old photo of the Tim Cook meeting with Sundar Pichai from Google in a dimly lit.

A (23:18)

Cafe or.

B (23:19)

Restaurant, probably in Cupertino or Menlo park somewhere. I was hoping they would do a jersey swap at this event because of course, Mark Zuckerberg and Jensen Wong swap jerseys.

A (23:30)

Tim Cook very clearly mewing here. I think they're both mewing at each other. They're both mewing at each other. They're just having a mew off.

B (23:38)

Yes. That's how they really.

A (23:39)

They're not even talking.

B (23:40)

They want to do business together. Anyway.

A (23:42)

Let's go over to the New York Times. The New York Times has a new profile.

H (23:47)

Fantastic.

A (23:48)

Specifically, Callie Huang and Trip Mickle. John Ternus, a low profile but influential executive at Apple, could be next in line to replace the company's longtime chief executive, Tim Cook, if he steps aside, they say. Around 2018, Apple considered adding a tiny laser to its iPhone. The part would allow consumers to take better photos, more accurately map their surroundings, and use new augmented reality features. But it would also cost Apple about $40 per device, cutting into the company's profits. John Ternus, Apple's head of hardware engineering, suggested adding the component to only the more expensive pro models of the iPhone, said two people familiar with the discussions. Those devices, Mr. Turner's reason, tended to be purchased by Apple's most loyal soldiers. Hostages. Hostages who would be excited about new technology. Average consumers, on the other hand, probably wouldn't care, threading the needle between adding new bells and whistles. Let's give it up for bells and whistles to Apple's products. While watching. The bottom line has defined the careful, low profile style of Mr. Turnus. And we have to take a minute to talk about the nominative determinism of turn us around. Turn us around. Mr. Turn us around. Our AI strategy is failing. We need somebody to turn us around. Mr. Turnus could be the man for the job. He joined Apple in 2001. He is now considered by some company insiders to be the front runner to replace Tim cook, Apple's longtime CEO. Apple last year began accelerating its planning for Mr. Cook's succession, according to three people. Mr. Cook, 65, has told senior leaders that he is tired and would like to reduce his workload. Should he step down. Mr. Cook is likely to become the chairman of Apple's board.

B (25:31)

Oh, interesting. They're also doing some numerology. Turnus is 50 and that's the same age that Cook, that Tim Cook was. He took over for Steve Jobs in 2011.

A (25:41)

I we see you, we see you. New York Times.

B (25:45)

Interesting.

A (25:45)

Doing the hard hitting analysis.

B (25:47)

Like Mr. Cook, Mr. Ternus is known for his attention to detail and his knowledge of Apple's vast supply network. Both men are also considered even tempered collaborators capable of navigating the bureaucracy of one of the world's wealthiest companies without ruffling feathers. His rising profile caused debate amongst Apple alumni and rank and file employees about whether he would lead like Tim Cook who succeeded by making the company more predictable and incremental, or Mr. Jobs who laid the foundation for the success with risky bets and visionary.

A (26:19)

Venturi in the chat says Apple needs a social network. Do they have it already? I feel like imessage is a social network.

B (26:25)

Ping. If you remember Ping, they had a social network that they acquired I believe from Jeff Ralston, the former YC partner. But it was like Spotify where you could see where other people are playing. You'd go on Apple music and or it wasn't called Apple music back then, it was ping which was linked to itunes. You can, you could see what other people are listening to and then every artist would have a profile where they could share content. It was a very music driven social network.

A (26:51)

Follow me on ping, Follow me on.

B (26:53)

Ping Ping me, ping me Never really took off though. Other than that. I think imessage is a very, very strong social network. And I mean certainly If Meta owns WhatsApp and includes that in the family of apps and messaging is obviously a huge driver of social networking activity these days. People sharing content through there. Snapchat is a messenger. Instagram is. You know, you look and you see there's more shares on this reel than likes because people are sending it to each other. That's what people do. That's how people.

A (27:24)

Yeah, and I think, I think the people have long had the idea to build a family focused social network and I don't think they'll ever be successful because group chats on imessage function.

B (27:35)

Oh yeah, totally do that very well. You just can't keep up with Apple on that.

A (27:38)

Yeah.

B (27:39)

Before we move on Figma, figma make isn't your average vibe coding tool. It lives in figma so outputs look good, feel real and stay connected to how teams build, create Code back prototypes and apps fast.

A (27:51)

Mr. Turnus Rising profile. Sorry, you got that?

B (27:56)

If you want to make an iPhone every year, Turnus is your guy, says Cameron Rogers.

A (28:01)

But how much should we read into this?

B (28:03)

Because they already do make an iPhone every year, but.

A (28:05)

Well, yeah, but it says something. I mean, obviously this is. We don't have the context here, but.

B (28:11)

What he didn't say was if you want to build the next, you want to build the crazy future. Yeah, the futuristic. You know, if you want to get the Apple car project off the ground, Turnus is your guy. He said, if you want to make an Apple an iPhone every year like clockwork, keep the trains running on time. At Apple, Ternus is your guy. Yeah, people, we read that other quote about Turnus where they were saying, like, has he done anything hard? Has he made any hard decisions?

A (28:33)

No.

B (28:34)

And someone was clearly taking shots at him. It feels like there's a little bit of, like, politics going on over at Apple, people jockeying for the next role. But whatever's happening with John Ternus clearly is working because it's one profile after another. And he's the name I keep hearing more and more certainly above Craig Federighi, Eddie Q. Some of the other folks who are sort of household names in the Apple ecosystem, they're not getting profiles like this written. Everyone needs to meet and learn about John Ternus. So Apple's plans for artificial intelligence are also a big question. Is he AGI pilled? Is he asi pilled? What are his timelines? Is he a doomer? We got to get to the bottom of this. Hopefully. Hopefully. The New York Times is asking the hard questions. We will find out. While other giant technology companies have spent tens of billions of dollars developing AI, Apple has largely been on the sidelines. And it pushed off making major changes to its products with new AI technology. It'll be up to Apple's board of directors to decide who will eventually replace Mr. Cook, who also sits on the board. The rest of the company's eight board members did not respond to requests for comments, and Apple declined to make Mr. Turnis available for an interview. They couldn't get the New York Times in the room with Turnus. The Financial Times and Bloomberg previously reported on aspects of this. So he's the youngest member of Apple's executive leadership team.

D (29:50)

Success.

B (29:51)

Getting some youngblood in there. Sort of a doge situation, I guess. The boys, the Turnus child at the. At the helm. No, he's 50. It would be Apple's first chief executive in three decades to have Spent his career working in hardware. Unlike some of the other candidates to replace Mr. Cook, Mr. Turnus has worked on many of Apple's devices, as well as the global operations that manufacture those products. He would take over as a relative unknown outside of Apple. Inside the company, he's known more for maintaining products than developing new ones, according to six former employees. And Mr. Ternus, who has been an engineer in Silicon Valley for all of his adult life, has limited exposure to the policy issues and political responses.

C (30:36)

That.

A (30:36)

Can be viewed as a knock. Right. Like, he's not just given Apple's history as an innovator, but what's the highest leverage place that he can spend his time? Probably focusing on the products that are already hits that have real product market fit.

B (30:52)

The political responsibilities can't be that complicated. I mean, he knows the supply chain. All he has to do is make a solid gold iPhone, send one to 1600 and call it a day. Make sure it's very ornate, and you'll be good to go. He's a California native. He received a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from Penn, where he was on the varsity swim team. For a senior project, he designed a device that allowed quadripleticsplegics to use head motions to control a mechanical feeding arm.

D (31:20)

Wow.

B (31:21)

It's like a neural link back to in the day. In the four years after his graduation from Penn, he designed headsets and other products at a virtual reality startup.

H (31:29)

Wow.

B (31:30)

Throwback. Then he joined Apple, first working on screens for Macs as the company transitioned away from the colorful imac.

A (31:37)

I loved the 90s. I'm sure we'll get a chance to talk to Mr. Turnus at some point, but I would love to know what people's VR timelines were. When he was working on VR in.

B (31:47)

The 90s, they were like 10 years max. 10 years max in the next decade, for sure, he was a man of the people, adding that the decision to sit with his team likely helped Mr. Ternus manage and motivate his staff. When he was working at Apple, their team, the team he was on, moved office floors, switching from a closed office plan to a mostly open seating with few offices. When he was promoted, Mr. Turnus had the option to move into one of those fancy offices. But he said, no, I'm sitting with the crew. I'm riding with my boys. I'm hanging out in the open plant. Which is, you know, tells you a lot about who he is as a person. In 2005, Mr. Turnus had been promoted to lead Apple's hardware Engineering team for the imacs as it made the G5 series, which helped inspire who helped? Michael Hillman hired Mr. Turnus and worked with him at Apple for more than a decade. That team was working on using magnets to hold the computer's glass screen in place. Interesting. The technique was unusual for its time and faced skepticism, but Mr. Turnis still pushed for it. When presented with such an out of the box idea, he would champion it, said Mr. Sieffert. Mr. Turnus spent extended periods of time working with manufacturers in Asia. He traveled between the continent and Silicon Valley and learned how difficult it could be to have a manufacturing supplier deliver on Apple's design expectations. Apple also paired Mr. Turnus with an external consultant to advise him on leadership. He got a leadership coach. He became a key lieutenant of Dan Riccio, his predecessor as Apple's head of Hardware. By 2013, his role had expanded to include overseeing the Mac and iPad teams. In recent years, he has shouldered more responsibility for updates to Apple's products. Spearheaded the iPhone Air, which was released last year with a new slim design and was a key leader in Apple's transition from using intel chips to silicon to Apple silicon. And of course the iPhone air. Not a really hot seller, apparently not doing that well financially necessarily. But from an engineering perspective, people are.

A (33:52)

Very excited about Apple. Employee friend of mine said he got the iPhone air. It was the worst iPhone he's ever bought.

G (33:59)

Really. Wow.

B (34:00)

Roasted.

A (34:01)

Absolutely brutal.

B (34:03)

Well, before we talk more about the iPhone air, let me tell you about label box. Delivering you the highest quality data for frontier AI. Get in the box. The label box. Apple, you know you need some training data. You know you need some high quality training data for your frontier AI. You need some data to train on Siri. Get on label box.

A (34:23)

Get in the box.

B (34:24)

So the iPhone air, obviously it even might, you know, reviews are mixed. Reviews are not great. Some people complain about different things, some people love it, but it hasn't been flying off the shelves. But when you see the X ray.

A (34:36)

Remember that story, you know, of the founder who said, this is the strongest iPhone ever made. Nobody can possibly break this. It's impossible.

B (34:43)

What happened next?

A (34:44)

And then it was quickly broken in half by a gundam. That was an iPhone air smashed.

D (34:49)

Smashed.

B (34:50)

But you can imagine the innovation that went into making the iPhone air so small. Could be used for a foldable phone, which was probably coming. Could be used for more miniaturization if they do some sort of lapel pin or something else. They clearly have packed a lot of power into such a small form factor. So is he a nice guy? Yes, says Mr. Rogers. He is a nice guy. He's someone you want to hang out with. Everyone loves him because he's great. And here's the quote that lives in infamy. Has he made any hard decisions? No. Are there hard problems he's solved in hardware?

A (35:25)

No.

B (35:28)

Rogers. How can you say he's never made a hard decision? Says Cameron Rogers, who worked on product and software engineering management at Apple from 2005 to 2022. Cameron.

E (35:40)

Roger.

B (35:41)

Hater of the year right here. Who is this person? But Cameron Rogers is not a fan. Clearly not pulling out the glaze Hater for Turnis. It's absolutely brutal to say.

A (35:56)

Yeah, Remember the same guy who said earlier in the article, if you want to make an iPhone every year, Turnus is your guy?

B (36:01)

Yeah, you got it.

A (36:02)

Which again, I read that and I was like, okay, that sounds good. Surface level.

B (36:06)

Cameron Rogers.

A (36:07)

Apple does make an iPhone every year. We should have Cameron on the show.

B (36:13)

The hater in Chief. Chief hating Officer. It's crazy. I mean, certainly you cannot be at Apple for two decades and never have made a single hard decision or solved a hard problem in hardware like that. Seems impossible.

A (36:25)

It's funny, there is a hardware engineer at Apple today named Cameron Rogers, but.

B (36:31)

It is different person.

A (36:32)

Different.

B (36:32)

Okay, okay.

E (36:34)

Well.

B (36:34)

In a 2024 commencement speech at Penn's engineering school, Mr. Turnis told grad that in the future they would be proudest not of specific projects, but of the journey to make them all happen. Now, while you're on that journey, there's going to be many times in your career where you have to take on something new, he said. And sometimes you might wonder whether or not you can actually do it. Giving a little inspirational talk at Penn's engineering school commencement speech. Very fun. Well, good luck to him.

G (37:05)

I don't know.

B (37:05)

I think you can figure it out. I would be shocked if he's really never solved a hard problem. Seems like he has some beef with this Cameron fellow and I don't know, we'll see. Cameron Rogers. Maybe Turnus needs to respond. Drop a diss track. I don't know.

A (37:23)

I would love to see that.

B (37:25)

Public.com investing for those who take it seriously, they got stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries and more, all with amazing customer service. OpenAI they've acquired Torch. It's a healthcare startup that unifies lab results, medications and visit recordings. Bringing this together with ChatGPT Health opens up a new way to understand and manage your health, says OpenAI.

A (37:49)

The Founders of Torch. Torch was a four person company. Oh small they the co founder of Torch Ilya I believe one of the other founders previously built Forward Ilya was also an early Uber gm, so trained at the Travis Kalanick school of mogging. Anyways, Forward little backstory healthcare startup founded in 2016. They wanted to rebuild the healthcare system from the ground up. Sounds cool. They originally were trying to do this kind of like the general belief was that healthcare was too reactive instead of proactive.

D (38:32)

Right.

A (38:33)

You go to the doctor when you're sick, not to just kind of generally be healthy. They had an app. They wanted the sort of physical spaces to feel like Apple Stores. Right. They wanted this Apple like experience for health subscription only model. They didn't accept insurance initially. Bunch of folks founders Fund Khosla, Eric Schmidt. A bunch of legends were in the round. 2018-2022 they expanded to dozens of locations. They had body scanners, real time blood work, a bunch of different software that they had built out. 2021 reached a valuation of over 1 billion, raised a quarter billion dollar ish series D round and at this point, from that point on they sort of pivoted to focusing on this thing called care pods. And these were like trying to be autonomous, like AI driven medical kiosks. So honestly, probably right idea, maybe a little bit too early. Eventually in 2024 they shut down very abruptly. It sounds like they basically just ran, ran out of money, came back very quickly with Torch and now they are of course being rolled into OpenAI. So you can I think the right way to read into this. OpenAI just launched OpenAI Health. They're now acquiring Torch. I would assume that they want all, they want all of your, they want all of your health data. Like they really want to help you with your health.

F (40:08)

What?

B (40:08)

Your blood, they're out for blood.

A (40:09)

They want your blood, they want your blood work. Maybe they could say like hey, this month instead of paying, you could be a blood boy for us. Our researchers are working really hard.

B (40:22)

Need your blood. I'm ready to upload. Upload me. Just let me know, let me know.

A (40:27)

I'm gonna read the message that Torch wrote. Torch says everyone deserves the best answers modern medicine can give them. And yet we've all had people close to our hearts who didn't get the answers they needed about their health. We have more data about our bodies than ever before. But it's never been harder to bring it all. Patients see only a fraction of their own records, while clinicians have little, have too little time to parse the growing stream of data patients bringing in from wearables and consumer health companies, you know, like function, et cetera. AI is the most important new tool we've had in decades for turning the chaos into clarity. But AI can't help you if your health data is scattered across four hospitals, two labs, seven apps and three web portals. We started Torch to build a medical memory for AI unifying scattered records into a context engine that helps you see the full picture, connect the dots and make sure nothing important gets lost in the noise Again.

B (41:15)

Mike has a little life hack here. If you're an early stage AI founder, rename yourself to Ilia and get an M and A offer just crazy enough to work. I like it. Let me tell you about Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business and lets you sell in seconds online, in store, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces, and now with AI agents. Every time I see one of these, one of these new features drop from Claude Cowork or OpenAI ChatGPT Health, it just feels like the Siri thing is like bigger and bigger. Back to what Tyler was saying about implementation of the model, because Apple has Apple Health, there's a whole promise there of what Apple Health as an app can do. You want that to be AI enabled so they need to update that as well. And there's, there's so many different okay, shopping agent to commerce. Like, like there's Apple Pay, is Apple Pay integrated with Siri and the new AI function. So they really do need to go around and update all over the place if they want to stay. You know they have some dominant positions carved out. But every AI company is trying to eat off Apple's plate and as much as they can. But there's really, really strong lock in to most of the Apple ecosystem. So they, they, it's not over if they don't move right now and get the app out and get updates out. But it's very clear that if you know Apple or ChatGPT Health is rolling out, you know it's going to take time for people to ramp up, start integrating things, start using it. But if that behavior develops and it's another two, three years until Apple responds, like yeah, they are going to be a laggard in that category. There's a Claude cowork reaction thread going on from Zvi Mushowitz. Lots of people kind of mixed reviews. Eleanor Berger says research preview, this is the future, not the present. For now, if you want a local agent, Claude code is still the best you can recommend Even if it's for non coding tasks. Some people are saying it's buggy. Have you had a chance to try it out? Tyler, can you install Claude Cowork today?

A (43:26)

Yeah, I mean so. So I downloaded it yesterday, but it's kind of. We talked about this earlier in the gym.

C (43:32)

I actually don't know what to do with it because I'm already technical, already have cloud code.

A (43:36)

My sense is that this is basically just a.

C (43:40)

My sense is it's basically just a UI wrapper, actually.

A (43:42)

We get it, we get it, you're technical.

B (43:45)

Hit him with the flashbang.

A (43:48)

It's too powerful.

C (43:49)

No.

H (43:49)

Ok.

C (43:49)

But it's like a UI wrapper around Claude code. So it's like not providing maybe an insane amount of brand new functionality.

B (43:56)

I mean, there's a huge swath of consumers who are just never going to really open the terminal, even if Claude. If you go to Claude and say, how do I install cloud code? I heard it's hot. And Claude code says literally just hit command spacebar, type T E R M, hit enter. It'll open the terminal and then copy and paste this line and then tell it what you want. Just like it's ChatGPT or Claude. People still won't do that because it's.

A (44:22)

Like, oh, what's it? You need like 15 gigs for it too.

B (44:26)

Yeah, you do need some space on your hard drive, but that's not a huge issue for most people.

A (44:31)

Yeah, but it's not fully frictionless.

B (44:34)

Yeah. Whereas an app might sort of hold your hand through that a little bit more. And so I'm optimistic about this, but I do think that the marketing and the messaging and actually like the thread boy influencers are going to be pretty important here where if you see someone demo something cool with Claude, cowork, that's going to be a key to open it up. A lot of people, you know, in the early days of ChatGPT rolling out, a lot of people were sharing prompts. What's a good prompt? You know, prompt engineering, like, oh, you take this prompt and do this. There's a lot of people need inspiration. It's the same thing with Mid journey. Like if you just give someone a blank box and tell them this is an image generator, I'll just say like dog and then you just give them a picture of a dog and they're like, yeah, that looks like a dog. I can go to Google Images. What's special about it is like, I want it to be my dog and I want it to be fighting Darth Vader. And I want it to be in downtown la and then it creates something that you can't just find on Google Images. The same thing will be true on Claude Cowork. There are tools for just cleaning up your desktop. There's I think Alfred is one of them. There's a few others that just do automated sort of deterministic cleanup of desktops. But people will eventually be sharing Claude Cowork workflows, prompts, best practices and just giving people the idea, as simple as that sounds. The capability's there, but there's this capability application overhang where you need to actually tell people, hey, this is something that you could use.

A (46:01)

Claude co work for Mike says think the position as cowork is actually really sharp. I agree. I think that it's kind of a mouthful. Claude Co work but going back to what I was saying last week, when people, when some lab leaders have been talking about the potential of AI, they just say, oh, AI is going to do this, AI is going to do that. Obviously the at least near term reality is humans are going to use AI to do things. And I think anthropic trying to be more human about it and saying like, hey, you're working with this thing. It's not cloudomating you away.

B (46:36)

There are people having fun with the claws. The portmanteaus first, before we read through these, let me tell you about Railway. Railway simplifies software development, web apps, servers and databases run in one place with scaling, monitoring and security built in. Nir friend of the show says his job. Oh, it got claudomated away. No one has. No one. I can't believe no one has said this. Not even a single 1000 likes. People are into this.

A (47:01)

Paula says he hates AI. Oh, he's clodstrophobic.

B (47:05)

Clodstrophobic. Okay. These are getting a lot of likes, but not exactly belly laughing for me.

A (47:14)

Oh yeah, not quite.

B (47:15)

I'm glad people are having fun. I do think Claude's a funny name and you know, it's super fun.

A (47:20)

Yeah, John Palmer was really pushing like, hey, now's the time to rebrand. To rebrand, rename. I mean a naming exercise can be, you know, a very expansive project, but I do think it's probably too late. Claude is going all the way.

B (47:37)

Yeah, they've all sort of worked out.

D (47:39)

I don't know.

B (47:40)

Chatgpt Bard.

A (47:41)

In hindsight, Bard was kind of under having a digital Bard.

B (47:46)

Bard. Yeah, Bard was funny. But Gemini works. They're building up the brand there and Claude works as well. ChatGPT Such a mouthful. So. Such an insane name, so clearly named by a developer, but it just broke through in such a way. And then they did buy chat.com, so, you know, it winds up working Claude code for the rest of your work. American middle class, desk jockeys watching the asteroid hit the dinosaurs. We will see. We'll see how much this moves productivity, how much this moves gdp. That's the big question for this year is how much will people actually be able to, you know, use this to do the work they do every day?

A (48:30)

I've been in jobs where organizing desktop files was actually a $1 trillion.

B (48:37)

Yeah, I mean, I have been. I was an intern once, and my job was basically to open up an Excel template every day, copy paste some numbers, sort of make sure all the formulas held. And over the internship, over the couple months, I wrote more and more Visual Basic so that my job went from eight hours on the first day to four hours to eventually it was like 15 minutes. I would just, like get there and just hit a script. I would just click a button and it would just do everything. And that was just with like, normal software. Now you probably have to. You have to, you know, reality check. So make sure there's no hallucinations. But in general, like, some of these jobs can be automated. The question is, like, if someone uses this to automate their own job, will they just be sitting there, you know, watching reels in the small corner and when their boss comes, comes by the alt tab so that they're looking, oh, I'm still working really hard. Nothing's been automated. These AI models are slop. I definitely still need my job. Where does the value accrue? Who's reclaiming the value? I mean, we did talk to a friend who was saying that, you know, someone who has some sort of desk job has been Effectively automated by ChatGPT, but just spends all day golfing now. And the boss doesn't know that the job's been automated because. Because the boss.

A (50:00)

Yeah, we might see a bull market and water cooler talk.

B (50:03)

Ooh, yeah, that's possible.

A (50:04)

As people automate more and more of their work and just decide to yap.

B (50:09)

Well, speaking of water, let's go over to Augustus Dirico, the rainmaker himself. But first, let me tell you about Applovin. Profitable advertising made Easy with Axon AI. Get access to over 1 billion daily active users and grow your business. Today, Augustus says I'm AI pilled after seeing what the new grad philosophy major I hired to fly drones from a mountaintop has automated at Rainmaker with Claude. He's very happy.

D (50:35)

Yeah.

A (50:35)

We keep asking Tyler, hey, can you automate this? And he says, sorry, sir, it's not possible yet. It's not possible yet. I don't believe it.

C (50:44)

I never said that.

B (50:47)

You basically say everything. So Boris Czerny, who is runs cloud run. Claude runs created.

A (50:56)

Remember he popped over to OpenAI for like two weeks, right?

C (51:01)

No, that was cursor.

A (51:02)

Oh, he popped over to cursor.

B (51:04)

Wait, so he went to cursor, turned and went back to. Went back to Anthropic.

C (51:09)

Yeah.

A (51:10)

So he's literally crazy moment last summer.

B (51:12)

His churning in terms of his jobs. Yes, churning through jobs.

A (51:15)

Interesting, interesting.

H (51:17)

Good.

B (51:17)

Nominative determinism. Well, how much code did he write to develop Claude co work? He apparently used Claude code entirely and did none of the coding himself. Fantastic. Very, very cool. So he said, since we launched COD code, we saw people using it for all sorts of non coding work. Doing vacation research, building slide decks, cleaning up your email, canceling subscriptions, recovering wedding photos from a hard drive, monitoring plant growth, controlling your oven. These use cases are diverse and surprising. The reason is that the underlying Claude agent is the best Agent and Opus 4.5 is the best model. Today we're so excited to introduce Cowork, our first big step towards making Claude code work. For all your non coding work, the product is early in raw, similar to what Claude code felt like when it first launched. And that's the big question, Tyler, is Claude code was very bare bones, rough around the edges when it launched. It's now so full functioning that everyone loves it and it's building whole new products. What do they need to add to Cowork to make it an even better product? I don't know. I feel like in the app ecosystem, in the chat app ecosystem, the level of value that comes from product design UI UX is still underrated. Obviously no one doubts that the models are great, but if you use the Claude app and you have it, you generate a deep research report or something like that, you click the play button to have it read it to you. You can't fast forward or rewind, you can't change the speed and you also, if you close your phone, it just stops playing. So you need to be sort of like touching the phone to keep it working, to keep it open while you listen to this room report. And that just feels like, oh, that's like not a good user experience. And ChatGPT has solved that and has some more. They can do background audio and these are all sort of simple APIs in iOS, but it takes time and consideration. You have to decide where the buttons go and what they look like. And cloud code can do a lot of that, but it takes time and someone has to make the decision.

A (53:32)

My neighbor Murph in the X chat says, I'm interested in Noah. No work, Claude.

C (53:37)

Go work.

A (53:40)

I like that something there.

B (53:42)

That's great. Anyway, MongoDB choose a database built for flexibility and scale with best in class embedding models and re rankers. MongoDB has what you need to build. What's next? NetCapGirl Sophie says, okay, Claude, take this unstructured data and turn it into dashboards. That will give executives deeper insights into critical business functions. Make no mistakes.

A (54:05)

Jira Ticket says all reliable because Sophie posts some version of this.

B (54:09)

Wait, really?

A (54:10)

Once a day.

B (54:11)

Once a day?

A (54:12)

Basically, he's gone viral with the same concept.

B (54:15)

Wait, but like, has it always been about Claude?

A (54:18)

No, no, no. Oh, just constantly being repurposed. Playing the hits. You gotta play the hits.

B (54:24)

Critical business functions.

A (54:25)

Atlas says Claude. Here is a picture of my crush Claude. Here is her phone number. Make her my gf.

B (54:31)

Make no mistake, that's also his PIN playing. Everyone has their role to play in the post. Singularity Hangout Sesh, turbopuffer, serverless vector and full text search built from first principles and object storage. Fast 10x cheaper and extremely scalable. There's a billion dollars inside Opus 4.5 model weights and you just need to type the right Claude code prompts to get them out. Besides Frankie, very true. Lots of opportunity. Actually, knowing how to code is no longer.

A (55:00)

Juwan says there's no point in learning or doing anything anymore. Just learn English and acquire a good mental model of things. And just type, bro. Just type.

B (55:09)

Yeah, we'll see. I mean, you have to actually be inspired to come up with something that people want, talk to users or something like that. Claude code is so successful they had to make Claude code not for code instead of just Claude. Claude code not for code instead of just Claude. It is funny that there's these opportunities to retool the brand around because we're now three levels deep. There's anthropic, there's Claude and there's Claude code and Claude cowork. And you could have just said Claude code and Claude coworker. Now just Claude. It's one thing. It works in the terminal. It also works on your desktop. It's one thing. But it's interesting that anthropic clearly sees some sort of divide between technical and non technical Users that they assume that will persist at least for a reasonable amount of time. Let's see. Introducing Claude Cowork. It's giving an AK47 to a monkey which is one of my favorite favorite meme images ever.

A (56:14)

If you scroll up you'll see the best formats.

B (56:16)

It's one of the best of all time. Yes, you could definitely do some damage on a computer or in a corporate environment if you really turn it loose on the network. We will see. I'm sure there will be more total just ridiculous mistakes than malicious intent, but it will be interesting. So deja Vu coder goes on to say initially I thought it's computer use but looks like it's Claude code shaped with more UI UX focused towards non technical people, especially those who have terminal info.

A (56:50)

Gold Rock in the chat is headed to an interview with Goldman Sachs. One, let's give it up for Goldman Sachs and two let's all send some good luck towards our boy.

B (57:02)

Yes, Sholto also posted of course because he's involved in this.

A (57:07)

Oh, he is.

B (57:07)

What else is going on? Yes. Oh, Ramp also has a coding agent. They built their own fax. Herbert shared this. The Tri Ramp engineering team built a coding agent last month called Inspect and it's now dominating our internal use cases. I can't tell you how fun it is to continually have my mind blown by our technical folks. Very, very interesting to actually people are very confused by this but you know, it's a very special team, very special company and so it makes sense in this particular context to build something special. And they also have an Agentix spreadsheet product at this point and they've been having a lot of fun developing new software very quickly all over the place before we move on. CrowdStrike, your business is AI. Their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches. And Rune is back to vague posting. He says that the Elves have left for Valinor.

A (58:08)

Please sir, can I have a crumb of context? Just a crumb.

B (58:13)

The I require context hat goes on Elves people.

A (58:17)

We need one. We need a hat here.

B (58:18)

We do.

A (58:19)

I require context hat.

B (58:20)

Yes. I don't know exactly what he's referring to. It is a vague post but we'll have to dig into it. Maybe we'll have to have him back on the show.

A (58:28)

Well, QT Cash is speculating saying, given that Rune is likely referencing his own Quern comment talking about the downfall of OpenAI, what does this mean for the future? Apropos of suskavor. Now having left OpenAI for good. I've gone back to my thinking about the long term consequences of Altman's coup. And something I began to wonder in 2021 when the news about Anthropic broke. What if the elves have left Middle earth? What if OpenAI has lost its mojo? If so, what would that look like? And how would we know? What's the ROT narrative?

B (59:00)

Interesting. Interesting. Oh, wait. So Zoomer also says he's talking about the California tax proposal. Fed shenanigans. You're misreading the tweet. So the elves could just be our most loyal.

A (59:13)

And this is the power of vague posting.

B (59:14)

Yeah, it's interpreted a bunch of different ways.

A (59:16)

Like sprinkling, you know, some tea leaves.

B (59:18)

People behind their own. Yes, I mean, regardless, you know, OpenAI. Have they lost their mojo? Certainly not when it comes to vague posting. Tyler, what do you think?

C (59:25)

Okay, yeah, so there's like the two different ways to look at it, right? It's about California or open air.

A (59:30)

Yes, but.

C (59:31)

So I think he probably meant it as like, okay, this is bad California billionaire tax. But like, all the news about that has broken, like earlier this week. Like all the. Everyone's leaving.

A (59:41)

Right?

C (59:41)

It's kind of late to post that. Yeah, but it's a perfect time to post, as you kind of see at least the vibes on X, like really hard going against OpenAI Pro.

A (59:51)

So I think it's like if someone.

C (59:53)

Asked him about it, he's like, oh, it's about the billionaire tax. But, you know, subtly, it's actually.

B (59:58)

It could also. It could also be. So the elves could also be Sholto and Dwarkesh and Valinor could be the gym because they did a workout together with Atlas Creatine Cycle, and they're looking in fighting form. Well, let me tell you about Gusto, the unified platform for payroll benefits in hr, built to evolve with modern small.

A (60:18)

And medium sized businesses and the backbone of tbpn.

B (60:21)

Yes, it is.

A (60:23)

So there's some. There's some. Oh, we do.

B (60:26)

Yes. Let's do it. In the restream waiting room, we have Shervin Pishavar and we will welcome him to the TVPN Ultradome. Shervin, how are you doing? Good to see you.

H (60:35)

How are you?

B (60:36)

Thank you so much. We're good. Good to see you again. Thank you so much for taking the time to hop on the show. Maybe you could start with just give us the highest level of what's going on in your world. What's going on around the world. How are you interpreting the news? Of the last few weeks, this has been going on for more than.

A (60:58)

Yeah, I can't imagine what a roller coaster it's been.

B (61:00)

How are you introducing this at the highest level possible?

H (61:04)

At the highest level possible. This is one of the greatest displays of courage by humans. Young Iranians and Iranians of every age, by the millions are in the street the last couple weeks demanding their freedom. They've been living in an open air prison for the last 47 years. The work that the Crown Prince, Reza Pahlavi has been doing has succeeded in having millions of people calling out for him to return, for there to be a process towards a democracy, towards a transition process. The people are demanding their freedom. And just in the last 48 hours, the numbers are staggering. 12,000 people have been killed by the army, the military. The supreme leader Khamenei, who is one of the most evil humans on the planet, has ordered the mass killing of people. So you have an open air prison where people have no freedoms, and now you have an extermination camp happening. So you have horrific videos coming out. These people are defenseless. They have nothing to protect themselves except their hopes and dreams and their demands for freedom. They're calling out for Reza Pahlavi to return. And he, he's the son of the last king. He's a big believer in freedom and democracy and has a plan for reconstruction. And many of us, including myself, have joined his efforts and his movement. And now the difference is you have President Trump outwardly saying to the Iranian people, we have your back. We're locked and loaded. That gave the people the courage to come out and protest for the last couple weeks. And this is not a protest movement anymore. This is a revolution. They want a complete change in the government when what we're, you know, working on is essentially a process to have an interim government led by Reza Pahlavi, who millions of people are asking for. And the time to act is now. President Trump said that he has their back and any minute that can be. He reaffirmed that today. You know, Prime Minister Netanyahu has said the same things and that, you know, the connection, by the way, is very biblical between the Jewish people and the Persian people. Cyrus the Great, 2,500 years ago, earned a spot in the Bible by freeing the Jews from slavery in Babylon, returning them to their homeland in Jerusalem and rebuilding their temple. He's celebrated by the Jews, he's celebrated by the Persians, he's celebrated by the Christians. He had the first declaration of human rights and then biblical symmetry 2,500 years later, it's the Jewish people who are helping the Persian people free themselves from the shackles of slavery, from these terrorists that have held them in an open air prison for the last 47 years. The whole world has been reshaped by the huge mistake of 1979 of allowing these extremists, Marxists, Islamists coalition to take over. And we've seen the effect they've had. They funded all of the terrorist organizations throughout the Middle east, including Hamas and Hezbollah. And now we see the invasion of Europe and the UK and you know, potentially America as well, by extremist ideologies. And that needs to end. It needs to end now.

A (65:09)

What's the next domino? What's the next domino to fall? Like, what does forward movement look like for the revolution?

B (65:17)

Do you want to get to like tens of millions of protesters? Is it just growing the protest movement? Is there an election process? Is there some specific mechanic that we're waiting to look for?

H (65:28)

We're beyond the tens of millions. Tens of millions were in the streets in the last couple weeks. It's the biggest, biggest numbers ever. The Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi has been calling for people to come in the streets at certain times. And they've been listening. We have an open channel of communications because of Starlink, these freedom technologies, as I call it. I've been working on it since 2010. I had a dinner with the Secretary of State back then and I said, the last bastion of dictatorship is the router and we need to be able to use satellites to bring beam Internet communications to people so that dictators and tyrants can't block the, the Internet.

B (66:09)

So what are they doing?

A (66:10)

So the regime is making efforts to neutralize Starlink, is that correct?

H (66:16)

That's right. When I started this project with a band of rebels in 2022, we went to SpaceX, Starlink bought tons of Starlinks and we figured out three different routes to smuggle it into the country to get it to the protesters. At the time, there were only nine Starlinks in the country and now there's thousands. Those Starlinks are the way that these videos that we're all seeing from the protests are reaching the world. Otherwise, now they're using military jammers to block and jam the Starlink connections. And luckily Elon and his team are some of the smartest humans on the planet. So they've figured out how to, how to, you know, get around that. Ukraine was a great laboratory for that as well. And when the Starlings went there, it changed the whole dynamic of the war. And I had played a role in making some introductions there. And now what we're seeing is the same dynamic in Iran now there's tens of thousands of starlings. They're getting around the jamming. President Trump reached out to Elon. It's in the news yesterday for more help with Starlink. So, you know, this is something as an industry as Silicon Valley and tech that we should be very proud of. These technologies that we work on are what I call freedom technologies. And they're part of the arsenal of taking down really these criminal and terrorist organizations and tyrants that have taken over sovereign nations with nuclear bombs or attempting to get the nuclear bombs. So, you know, these are the technologies that can be used increasingly so to let humans have the freedoms and the democracies that we're so blessed to have in America. You know, I escaped Iran during the Iran Iraq war. I had bombs falling on me as a kid. My father had to escape Iran because he was a journalist, radio, television for the last Shah. And he put, bravely put the foreign language broadcast to let people know how to get out of the country. Saved a lot of lives. And the Supreme Leader then Khomeini put him on the execution list. So I didn't see my dad for two years. Bombs were falling every night. And I remember as a 8 year old kid, all my drawings were of war of tanks and, and I had this Fantasy as an 8 year old, I was really into remote control planes and I thought, what if I could use these RC planes to bomb Khomeini's house? And now, 47 years later, under the 47th president, that possibility is very real.

B (69:17)

Yeah.

A (69:18)

What is the dynamic between the armed forces that are killing protesters and like how do you wake up and you know, put on a uniform and then go gun down, you know, your countrymen? Like how, like how is that sustainable? At what point, at what point do those people start to turn?

H (69:41)

We've seen this in other revolutions. You know, people, you know, you can't, you can't kill 50 million people. @ some point people begin to defect. And I was with the Crown Prince just a couple days ago. And you know, one of the stories was that there's, you know, thousands of people are calling in sick from the military and the police. That's a form of a labor strike. And you know, they don't want to kill innocent people. They've been shipping in mercenaries who don't even speak Farsi or Persian. And they've been using mercenaries as well to kill innocent People, these are occupiers. They're not Iranian. Their souls are not Iranian. They're Islamic extremists that took over a country. We should have never allowed it to happen. And a free, democratic Iran going back to the roots of who we are would be the greatest peace and economic dividend in the world. We've been working on something called the Cyrus Accords, which we want to basically join the Abraham Accords and have in Iran and in Israel that are at peace in Iran and the Middle east that are at peace together. A new digital silk road where all these economies are working together, jobs are being created, and some of the greatest engineers in the world are Iranian. As we all know, Silicon Valley is full of incredible Iranian American entrepreneurs. The calculations I have, if you add up Uber, Google, ebay, all the different companies that were either founded or early on built by Iranian Americans, it's in the trillions of dollars of contributions to the American economy. And that's only with a million Iranians. Imagine with 92 million brilliant Iranians, what could be unleashed in the world. Instead of exporting terror, we'll export hope and innovation. How.

A (71:48)

Have economics played a role or the local economy played a role in this current revolution? I know that's part of what's the just frustration with the state of things. I think was the regime offering some effectively stimulus checks or something of that sort of. I saw something like that. But what's going on that I'm sure that's kind of feeding into the movement? Well.

H (72:17)

The currency has collapsed. As of yesterday, the conversion rate to the dollar was zero. The currency has collapsed. Inflation has gone up. Has that gone out of control? I don't think this is the interview for soundboard. Yeah, it's okay, but the water system has collapsed. The power system has collapsed. This is a perfect storm and we're days away. If action is taken and the head of the snake is cut off, I Predict There'll be 50 million Iranians in the street celebrating. And you know, Reza Pahlavi returning interim government that would be recognized by all the governments in the world that are aligned with freedom and democracy in the Iranian people. This is a moral cause of our time. These are the brave hearts of our time. These young people by the millions are sacrificing their lives for a freedom that they might not live to see. Think about that for a second. That is the. The kind of spirit that started America and started the Western democracies of the world. My great grandfather started the first constitutional revolution from Tabriz in 1906 and recruited an American named Morgan Schuster. If you read the book the Strangling of Persia by Morgan Schuster is a Midwest American brilliant man who has a statue in Iran in his honor from back then. And they tried. They were inspired by Jeffersonian democracy to bring democracy to America. And that paved the way for all the modern rebuilding. The Pahlavi, the original Pahlavi, Reza Pahlavi, and then his father Mohammad Reza Pahlavi continued. And by 1978, Iran had the fourth largest army in the world. It had one of the greatest economies in the world. Everyone was coming there, Sinatra and it was a beautiful, beautiful place. And you know, there was a coalition of Islamic extremists and the beginning of the woke Marxist socialist era that we're now seeing in places like New York and Mamdani. And they've exported this strategy because it was so successful for them to take a major strategic asset and country with major resources like Iran and own it and then use those assets that God blessed Iran with to export that ideology and that terror. So this is the fight of our times. If we defeat the Islamic regime, we will unleash an era of peace and prosperity.

B (75:12)

For the world. What's the history of protests in Iran? It feels like there's been small moments. 2009 with disputed elections, 2017, 2019, 2022. Feels like every few years there's a moment that could grow. It hasn't in the past. Walk me through some of the history and then help me understand why this time might be different. That's.

H (75:38)

A great question and also a good framework to think about what's happening exactly at this moment, like the next 48 hours, I think, is do or die. Each time those protests got to a moment where it could have turned into a change, a significant change in the government, like 2009, the Green Revolution. In 2009-10, you know, the president at the time, President Obama, made a major, major critical mistake and he didn't back the protesters the way President Trump is backing the protesters. And when you don't back them, when you don't give them the courage that they will have the support of America and other democracies in the world that care about freedom and care about destroying terrorism that is a threat to our way of life, it fizzles out. And then they learn. The Islamic regime learns and they become even more extremists and abusive and causing.

A (76:41)

Hangings.

H (76:43)

By the thousands and imprisonments and rapes and to scare people and terrify people. They keep power through fear. And the thing I Learned when I went to try to spread satellite communications in those revolutions in Libya. I went there two weeks before Gaddafi was killed and went to Benghazi, went to Tripoli a month after. It was freedom, went to Tahrir Square. I wrote something called fear is finite and hope is infinite. When the people lose their fear is when freedom movements actually succeed. And the people, as you can see by the millions in the streets, even with all the killings, they're still coming out. Last night, they still came out. They've lost their fear. And that's when these types of tyrants fall. So if there is support from the air, from the skies, like Starlink, that we began that project patiently in order. So this, when this day came, there would be open communications with the world and coordination, but also support from the sky in terms of taking out some of these tyrants, you know, and we took out the nuclear capability before because that was an existential threat. But these evil leaders are as bad as a nuclear bomb. They're just a nuclear bomb in a human form. I.

B (78:12)

Feel like a lot of people who grew up and came of age during the war on terror don't have a lot of optimism about regime change. They tend to think that even if there's someone, some interesting person, a lot of energy to come in and lead, the infrastructure is so important because a government's just not just one person. There's ministers and leaders and all sorts of a chain that needs to form. And if you don't have a full government ready to go, how can you just rip and replace, drop in someone new? Their minds go to the de Baathification in Iraq and. And all the chaos that happened there. How do you think Americans who've sort of been blackpelled on regime change in the Middle east should be thinking about a positive outcome here? Well.

H (79:07)

One experience in Iraq. First of all, Iran is not Iraq. It's 92 million people. 87% don't even consider themselves religious. You know, and so it's a very different nation that is yearning for freedom, loves, America, loves, you know, Western culture, wants their freedom. And let us not forget, America saved the world in World War II. The Marshall Plan rebuilt all of Europe. Look at Japan's success. And so, you know, and then you look at Reagan and tear down this wall and the pressure that he put on in the Soviet Union and all of the clandestine efforts that happened to weaken the Soviet Union. Is Germany today a bad place to live? It wasn't until, you know, potentially extremist Islam invaded, invaded Europe. Is Poland a bad place. I was just in Poland multiple times for my work and my investments. It's a thriving economy, so we have to look at the positive examples of what's possible. When you unleash freedom, you have economic boom and you have humans that are thriving and contributing to our world. Well.

B (80:34)

Thank you so much for coming and giving us the update. Best of luck to you, you and everyone involved and stay safe and best of luck. We'll talk to you soon. Shervin, thanks so much. Thank you. We'll talk to you soon. Cheers. Goodbye. Console. Console builds AI agents that automate 70% of it. HR and finance support, giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets. We gotta go over to the OpenAI device. There's new leaks. Alleged leaks. We'll see. It's a new audio wearable meant to replace AirPods. This aligns with what the information has been leaking. The code name Sweetpea. Interesting. It looks like a metal egg stone with two little capsules behind the ear aiming for a 2 nanometer chip, maybe a custom chip for phone like actions. Big ambition. 50 million units in year one. That's a lot of devices. Yeah.

A (81:27)

So Foxconn has been told to prepare for five total devices by Q4 of 2028. All not known. But a home style device and a pen are still considered. I.

B (81:38)

Wonder how serious going to Foxconn. If you're OpenAI, you go to Foxconn, you say, prepare for five devices. What does that really mean? Does it mean, okay, help me prototype, do some demo runs, build me one or two and maybe we'll do one of the five. Maybe we'll do two of the five. Is Foxconn really reorienting everything around this? Are they totally prepared to make 5? How serious is that? I don't know. All I know is that it's exciting. I like hardware, it's fun. We're seeing it. We're seeing glimpse of this with the kids with the board and with the. What was it called? Camera box. No, sticker box. Yeah, sticker box. Yeah.

F (82:19)

And.

A (82:19)

I think, I mean OpenAI, it sounds like Johnny's team are the ones that are kind of pushing for this form factor, according to. Obviously this is a rumor, but picking a form factor similar to AirPods, which have insane product market fit, which last time I checked are like a $20 billion revenue line for Apple. It could be a standalone business by itself. And again, if you look back to the infamous interview with Gerstner, Sam was saying, like, we have a device coming. Yeah, we have a Device coming. Don't.

B (82:52)

Worry about that. That's a lot of revenue potentially. I mean, I don't know if they sell them. What do you think the price point for a OpenAI device would be? $300 1,999. 3,500. Like.

A (83:07)

The Apple. I feel like they have to stay in.

B (83:11)

The range of the AirPods and AirPods are between 100 and $300 basically. So low single digit hundreds. Well, Andrew Curran has a projection for what it'll look like if they ship this. I think they got an absolute blockbuster on their hands. I would rock that we're already wearing in ear monitors. I don't know if you can see over here. Just upgrade it to this. This.

A (83:37)

Goes so hard. The reason I like it is because the computer part is actually on the back so it frees you up to just stay totally locked in. Super.

B (83:46)

Cool. And also I love that there's a display that you can't see but everyone else can. So everyone else knows. Oh, he's doing a deep research report right now. Oh, he's locked in. Let's.

A (83:55)

Check in on John. John, can you turn around for a second? Yeah.

B (83:59)

Oh, okay. Three green lights. He's printing, he's making money. Says.

A (84:02)

This will be as successful as humane friend rabbit, et cetera. Oh.

B (84:06)

No. Yeah. Let us know in the chat if you you're bullish or bearish on the OpenAI device. A lot of risk but a lot of resources. A lot of good people over there. Anyway, whenever they announce it, you know that they're going to live stream it. They're going to get on Restream one livestream, 30 plus destinations. If you want to multi stream, go to restream.com in other news, we got to go to Apple Creator Studio. Tyler, can you break this down for us? What are they doing? Who are they taking shots at? Apple.

A (84:36)

Creator Studio. It.

C (84:37)

Seems they're basically just rolling all of their like software. I don't know if there's actually any new software, but they're just like rolling it together into some subscription. It's.

A (84:45)

Kind of like Creative Cloud, right? Yeah.

B (84:46)

Same thing. Yeah. Okay.

A (84:48)

Because I mean they already have the kind.

C (84:50)

Of same like there's Final Cut and Premiere. So.

B (84:53)

Jaws here says meet Apple Creator Studio. It's giving creators of every kind easy access to powerful intuitive tools for video, music, imaging and productivity. All supercharged by intelligent features that speed up and elevate their work. Were they previously selling Final Cut Pro separately? I think they were. Right?

A (85:15)

Yeah.

C (85:15)

Usually.

A (85:16)

I remember as a kid paying two. I was like, wow, I'm gonna spend $200 on a piece of software. And that felt like $200,000. And.

B (85:24)

You got some for free. Like you get imovie for free. But then Final Cut is an upgrade. And I was actually thinking, thinking about purchasing a Mac Mini or something. And I was going through the checkout flow and one of the options that they put right there is do you want to buy Final Cut Pro for an extra 200 something bucks? And so it seems like they're maybe doing away with that. Let's dig in. Apple has just introduced Apple Creator Studio, says Aaron Here, analyst at MacRumors Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, Pixelmator Pro, Motion Compressor and MainStage. Plus new AI features and premium content in keynote. Pages and numbers come together in a single subscription. They have the games subscription. Don't they have a health subscription as well? There's music, there's news. Apple has seven different subscriptions. Now.

A (86:09)

That I think about it, I would love to know what the average iPhone customer spends on software monthly and what Apple's take is on it. Both. They're.

B (86:22)

Printing their services. Businesses is everything at this point. Yeah.

A (86:26)

I guess you could just divide services revenue. Well.

B (86:29)

Services revenue, they don't really break it all out. Whenever they talk about services, they talk about Apple tv, all the wonderful TV shows and movies that they're producing. But then a lot of the services revenue comes from the App Store. 30% cut. You're laughing. What's.

A (86:42)

Funny? Gabe says Jordy, you dork. You didn't pirate. You didn't pirate it. Honestly, I. My father couldn't figure out you wouldn't steal from the grocery store. Don't steal from. You.

B (86:56)

Wouldn'T pirate a car. Big.

A (86:58)

Computer, big Apple. Yeah.

B (86:59)

Respect. Respect Big tech from day one. Respect cognition. They're the makers of Devin, the AI software engineer. Crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team. I mentioned it earlier, but Dwarkesh Patel and Sholto Douglas did a gym workout with Creatine Cycle. There's a new series. He's going to hit the gym with AI researchers. This is what the modern media landscape needs for sure. I love it. Very, very fun. And Dwarkesh says in his defense, Sholto was almost Olympian. Very, very good. Quantian.

A (87:35)

Atlas looking absolutely diced in this. It's.

B (87:38)

Insane. It's insane. Oh, quick shout out to Donnie Honig, who says, TVPN is the only show I like hearing the ad reads on. They just make it so fun. Well, you're welcome, Donnie. Here's Another ad read elevenlabs build intelligent real time conversational agents. Reimagine human technology interaction with ElevenLabs. Thank.

A (87:59)

You for the support. We gotta talk about ElevenLabs growth. Matti highlighted. Oh yeah, highlighted it Yesterday. He said 0 to 100 million ARR was 20 months, 100 to 210 months, 200 to 330 was just 5 months. So little. Quite the acceleration. Really, really good. And he is looking sharp here on Bloomberg. And.

B (88:23)

Also just it's such an interesting story because when this came out it was the textbook critique of like the other labs are going to steamroll like they have all the researchers, they have all the compute, they have all the money. Oh, it doesn't matter what you raise. They raised 100 times that this is a side project. They're going to be able to whip this up in a cave with scraps. You're going to get steamrolled. And it just hasn't happened. And I think it goes back to the focus on pure play focus we've seen Anthropic with the focus on code do really well. This focus on voice and the focus on taste, sort of the mid journey of audio is my new frame of mind here that it's less of a commodity, more opinionated than I think people realize when it seems like just put the weights in the bag and you're good to go. Anyway, do we have our next guest here? Let's read through this back and forth between Tim Sweeney and and Palmer Lucky because they're going back and forth. PC Gamer reported that Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney argues banning Twitter over its ability to AI generate adult images of minors is just gatekeepers attempting to censor all of their political opponents. Tim Sweeney fired back and said this is a vile lie by PC Gamer. I criticized a government official for pressuring Apple and Google to block a speech app owned by their political opponent deplatforming 500 million users on the pretense of of stopping a small number of users from distributing disgusting content. And Palmer Luckey chimed in and said PC Gamer loves to make things up about people they don't like. And he's going back to a report that PC Gamer put out about this is an insane headline. Tech billionaires including Palmer Luckey set up dumb new bank for those who didn't get burned enough in the 2022 crypto crash. You could write a headline like that. That's.

A (90:20)

Insane. Why does PC Gamer just so hard? They.

B (90:25)

Literally use the word dumb. I mean I guess this is opinion piece or something but it's all about the stablecoins and they call them a Bond villain. Wow, they really don't like him. This is crazy. Palmer replied. He said, quote, the point of svb and thus Arab war, is risky bets on fledgling startups that are unlikely to be backed by traditional finance, which has all these pesky rules and regulations. Why are you lying? The point is literally the opposite. Yeah, you don't want to. You don't want to recreate svb. Well, it didn't turned out. We.

A (90:55)

Don'T want to keep our next guest waiting. Don't.

B (90:57)

So before we bring them in, let me tell you about Vibe Co, where DTC brands, B2B startups and AI companies advertise on streaming TV, pick channels, target audiences, and measure sales, just like on Meta. Well, we have the president and CEO of Booze, Alan Hamilton, here. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining. Hey.

F (91:17)

Guys. Good to see you. Good.

B (91:18)

To see you too. Great to have you. I love your. I want to talk about the partnership with Andreessen Horowitz, but first I want you to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your journey, because it's a classic overnight success that we love here on the show. Overnight.

A (91:32)

Success.

F (91:35)

I love it. Thank you for the special effects. I was wondering if you're going to use some. Of.

A (91:38)

Course, I'll use a lot. As much as you want. So.

F (91:42)

Born and raised in Argentina, came here to go to school, find my way to Wisconsin, Eau Claire, of all places. Loved it there. I went to grad school, joined Booz Allen. This summer will be 35 years that I was a summer intern with Booz Allen. Wow. And here I am, you know, and thought I was gonna be here for two years, but fell in love with the people, with the work, with the culture. And I kept getting challenged, and every time I wanted to leave, they promoted me, so I stayed. And.

B (92:15)

That'S amazing. It's.

A (92:16)

A virtuous cycle for you. Were.

B (92:18)

There any breaks? I know that a lot of my friends who were interns in consulting or banking would leave for a couple years, do an MBA and then maybe come back. Was there any of that, or were you just there the whole time? No.

G (92:30)

Wow.

F (92:30)

Right through. I'm truly lifer. It's.

B (92:33)

Amazing. What advice are you giving to the next generation of folks who might be interns right now at Booz Allen? Is that opportunity still there? Do you see the life or path as being one that you recommend to the new interns? 100%.

F (92:49)

100% look, I mean, I think you, first of all, I tell everybody, you gotta find that organization that where your personal values and what you want to do matches the organizational values and what they want to do. And when you find one, grab on with both hands because that alignment is what keeps you going. Yeah.

D (93:07)

And.

F (93:08)

Then I say to people, look, I mean I early my career I wanted to get promoted and this and that and the other thing. And then I, at some point I said, you know what, I just want to learn stuff. And.

B (93:18)

Then they were like, you got to.

A (93:18)

Be the CEO. Yeah.

F (93:21)

I started getting promoted faster. Yeah.

B (93:23)

That'S great. Well.

A (93:24)

Yeah, it's kind of, if you're really good at getting promoted, it's kind of rough to kind of. You've kind of capped out a little bit.

B (93:31)

Here, but not many promotions left. You.

F (93:35)

Know, I come to work because I love what I do. I mean, and this has been true for the last 35 years. And yeah, at the beginning, you know, I was in a bit of the rat race. I got off of that and literally I just said, let's go learn stuff. You know, what do I not know about? Let me try and go learn how to do that. Yeah.

B (93:53)

How have the last few years, how have the last few years of the AI boom been? Has it turned it more into a rat race? Has there been more greenfield projects that have been less of a rat race? How has the AI boom transformed your business, what you're working on, how you're spending your time? So.

F (94:12)

This has been awesome. First of all, you should know I have a background in statistics, so I was doing early work on neural networks. And if I'd been born 20 years later, I would have been a data scientist. But we didn't have cool titles like that. But I was a big data guy when big data was tiny compared to what it is now. Let's.

A (94:31)

Give it up for big data.

F (94:34)

Here. Yeah.

C (94:36)

You.

F (94:36)

Know, about a dozen years ago I took the strong form view that said AI really is going to revolutionize everything we need to get, as was Allen at the, at the leading edge of that. We build essentially the largest. We're the largest AI provider to the federal government. Most of our business is with the government. We've been the largest cyber player in the federal space going back now maybe 20 plus years. And I've always thought about it as AI and. Right. It's this intersection of AI and cyber, AI and space, AI and autonomy, and that's what we've been trying to build. And you know, Booz Allen really people Think of us as a consulting firm, because we were one once. That's the company that I joined. Sure. But if you look at us now, our business is we're in the business of taking leading edge technology and bringing it to government missions. Everything from military missions to space to payment systems to public health, we're bringing tech into all of that, which is why we build these amazing partnerships.

B (95:52)

How has the last year changed your relationship with the government? If you start 2025, I think about Doge and a bunch of political energy around reducing cost and maybe reducing budgets and doing more with less, which of course software and technology can help with. At the same time. I saw a headline that President Trump thinks the defense budget should be 1.5 trillion. And that feels like, okay, expand, and we're in a different mode. So has that been whiplash? Or how have you processed setting up your business to deliver what you need to to the government across those sorts of narrative arcs that have rolled out over the last 12 months? So.

F (96:40)

If you think about our business, there's two pieces to it. There's work that we do for national security, that's about three quarters of our business. Wow. And then there's work that we do for more of the civilian agencies. Think about things like the va, Human Health Services, treasury, irs, those kinds of agencies. The administration has been pretty consistent. On the more of the civilian side, they've been looking very hard for ways to reduce cost. On the national security side, they've been looking to reprogram against top priorities. And so this idea that we're going to spend more on defense going forward, that obviously needs to be approved by Congress and all of that. But the President has been pretty consistent about wanting to rebuild the military, ensure that our military continues to be the preeminent one in the world. And we view bringing technology into that and working with the commercial technology providers to make their technology useful into those missions, which is not a straight translation by any means, as a big part of what we do. So we develop tech that sits on top or together with their tech. And together we build things that neither one of us could do. So.

B (98:03)

What does that mean for hiring? I imagine that you're partnering with the foundation lab companies, not necessarily trying to go up against Mark Zuckerberg and pay a billion dollars for some fancy AI researcher. Let Google DeepMind, let OpenAI, let anthropic and other labs build the foundation models, and then you can go and implement them. So what type of person is really excelling? How technical are they? Are you hiring computer scientists, MBAs, both. Who's thriving. We're.

F (98:37)

Hiring largely think of it as AI researchers. We have a very large quantum team where we hire astrophysicists. No.

A (98:45)

Way.

F (98:47)

And so we're really at the leading edge of these technologies, working side by side with all of our partners. I joke about the fact that I knew Jensen back when he was only worth a couple billion dollars.

E (99:02)

And.

F (99:03)

He and our companies have been working together on some of these things since 2017. So we've been at this for a while. I mean, you talk about Mark and Meta. We took Llama and working with them translated into something that could be ported onto the International Space Station. Okay. So it became Space Llama, which is made for some pretty cool memes. But now on the research side of the International Space Station, there is for the first time a large language model there. So that instead of going through all of these paper manuals every time they need to fix something, they can actually do natural language queries and do all of that. So that's the type of work that we're doing. If you think about it, most commercial tech. Yeah, it's oriented towards the idea that you're going to be in a data center that has perfect access to energy, perfect access to fiber. You know, it's 24. 7 uptime when you start dealing with some of the missions that we support. Yeah, you're at the edge, you're in the desert, you're in space, you're underwater, you have no connectivity. Form factor matters. Power matters. And we need to take the all of these amazing technology and these trillions of dollars in investment and make it useful in those settings. And for that, we build additional tech that is proprietary to us that combined with theirs really does wonderful things. And we started working with some of the Companies that are A16C Portos and Discover that there's a lot we were doing there with the companies that were already oriented towards our market. But I know you had been on the show on Friday, they have 1100 companies or more in their portfolio. The vast majority of them are not thinking about these missions, but they're building many building technologies that are highly applicable. Sure.

A (100:59)

Okay.

F (101:00)

So if we grab their tech and our tech and put it together in a different way, we expand markets, create differentiation, and it's all sorts of good stuff that happens. Yeah.

B (101:10)

You mentioned you knew Jensen when he was just worth a few billion dollars. When did you meet the Andreessen team? How long has this partnership been in the works? And then I'd love to know more about the nature of the exclusivity of the partnership, how that all takes shape and anything else you can tell us about it. Sure.

F (101:30)

So we've been working with companies that are in their portfolio for years without actually engaging with directly. So we, Zellen and databricks for example, have done a number of things together in the Department of Defense. We do things with Andrew. We, you know, we have a partnership with SHIELD AI oh yeah, that makes a ton of sense because we're building our tech and our cybersecurity tech on top of Hive Mind, which is their core Autonomy product. And then we, about a year plus ago I started talking to Ben and to Mark and we started shaping this idea that there's more we could do together at their level that we could begin to think about not just the companies that are obviously playing in this market, but the broader ecosystem and thinking about, okay, how we create a way to even do that, what's that discovery process look like, how do we create opportunities, how do we vet them, how do we manage our tech so that, you know, and that's been. Over the course of the last year we've done a bunch of stuff that has gotten us all super excited leading up to this announcement on Monday. What.

A (102:46)

Are some of the earliest stage companies that would qualify for this program? Are you working with like Series A stage? They.

B (102:55)

Have an accelerator. So there's companies that come in with, with just one or two co founders and they get $100,000 check. And then you have a databricks which is a hundred billion dollar business. How do you size the partnerships? So.

F (103:09)

We'Re working, we're almost working problem back. So what is the problem we're trying to solve and who has a piece of these puzzles? So we even have our own little corporate VC fund and there's companies in there. Seek is a great quantum company. Albedo is doing very low earth orbit. Yeah, I love satellites. Let's see, Scout AI is doing autonomy on the ground. Firestorm is doing essentially 3D printed drones. And we think about, okay, so what is Firestorm doing? What's SHIELD Doing? What are we doing? If we bring all of this together, can we solve a unique problem that we know exists that doesn't have a solution today? So, so you know, we're not so interested in the size of the company so much as we're interested in problem back. What can we solve and how do we scale it? So we're working with Mistral for example, which is in their portfolio on NATO type problems and European ally problems as you know, Europe is beginning to spend their fair share on the defense, on their defense budgets. Well, they got a series of issues that we can tackle together that weren't on anybody's radar screen. So that's the kind of stuff that frankly super excites me. And I think this is where there's a ton of energy and some really cool stuff coming along. Sure.

G (104:35)

Sure. Jordy.

H (104:36)

Anything.

A (104:36)

Else? No. Very cool. Yeah.

E (104:38)

Thank.

B (104:38)

You so much for taking the time. It's great to meet you. Talk with us. Congratulations on the partnership and we're excited to hear more. I'm sure a bunch of portfolio founders will be on the show. Yeah.

A (104:48)

Join us again as you guys have more announcements. Yeah.

B (104:50)

We'D love to keep talking. Absolutely.

D (104:52)

Thank.

F (104:52)

You guys. Have.

B (104:53)

A great rest of your day. Cheers. Goodbye.

G (104:55)

Let.

B (104:55)

Me tell you about phantom cash. Fund your wallet without exchanges or middlemen and spend with a phantom card. Parker Conrad, the founder and CEO of Rippling, chimed in on the one time California billionaire tax. He says leave before the series B. I don't think of Barker as outspoken against the California Democrats very often, but he's quoting Jason Lemkin here who has more context. Yes.

A (105:29)

I can read through this. So Jason says my take on California's one time billionaire tax, it's much worse than it looks. Will it pass? Yes, likely. It only needs 50% plus one voter approval. CEI, you and CTA have done this before. Prop 55 won 63% in 2016. Will it get tied up in litigation? Almost certainly. Retroactive wealth tax on a tax type California has never had equals due process challenges. Billionaires have the legal budgets for years of fights. But it's clearly only the start that the goal is an annual tax, not one time. And the target is 25 to $50 million net worth folks including illiquid holdings. That is early stage founders raising a series B. And the one time framing is strategic. Same coalition is already has AB259 written an annual 1% wealth tax at a 50 million at a greater than $50 million threshold with plans to go to 25 million. It's been introduced three years running. The one time tax removes the constitutional barrier. Once that's gone, the annual version becomes a much easier ballot measure. California Policy center said if SEIU hopes to keep medical spending growing, it may need to place repeated wealth taxes on the ballot, potentially lowering the threshold as billionaires flee the risk for founders. At 1 billion you're taxing 200 people. At 50 million you're taxing 23,000 households including the Most successful founders on paper before any liquidity event. So imagine you raise a Series B, suddenly you have 50 million of paper gains. And suddenly the government's coming over and saying like, yeah, we need you to come up with a piece of that or get on a payment plan. And so then you're effectively like just building up a debt to the California government that as of right now seems like it just doesn't go away. Even if your company fails, it's like you owe that to the state. So what will happen here is people might, if this goes through as is, people will start companies like Parker's saying they'll start the company and maybe they raise like a pre seed round, seed round, something like that. And then they'll be like, okay, I literally have to move the company. Or maybe they won't even start it in California in the first place. And Newsom has come out in the last 24 hours and is against the tax. So he is on siding with the tech billionaires. Interesting.

D (107:56)

Yeah.

B (107:58)

When I see names like Parker, Conrad, Vinod Khosla, I don't think of these as the tech. Right.

F (108:03)

I.

B (108:03)

Just think of these as like tech people. And so to see them pushing back against this is, it's less of a political issue and more of a practical issue about where companies will be led from. I saw a different angle that potentially the super voting, like control could be used to determine how much you have to pay. And so you could have a founder who has super voting shares. They have 90% of the voting shares, but.

A (108:31)

They take a hundred million dollar company. Yeah. The bill as the way it's written today, they'd be taxed as if they have a $90 million position in the company. Yes. Which is just insane. They might have a. By that point they might have a 25%. Exactly. They might have less depending if they're multiple founders. So Pirate Wires has a great piece on this. I encourage everybody to read it. It's California's tech industry kill switch from Mike Solana. He says it's not a tax on wealth. The union's ballot prop is designed to target the very concept of founder controlled companies. And it will force the technology industry out of the state. Yeah.

D (109:08)

It'd.

B (109:08)

Be very, very weird to see a situation where a company gets started. They still go to San Francisco because that's a fun place to be. That's an exciting place to be. But then slowly the executive ranks are just relocating to inclined Village or Las Vegas or Texas. Yeah.

H (109:23)

Which.

A (109:24)

Eventually you pull everyone. Jensen. Jensen was like Yeah, I don't mind it. It's like, were you just trying to earn points right, with the general population? Like, at what point? Like so many of his employees would be subject to this, right? At.

B (109:39)

A certain point, yes. And I don't know, it could be very complicated. It certainly seems like just very, very complicated position. Austin Allred says, I wonder how many founders in California know that if you are making 250k a year and move to Texas or Florida, you pay $2,500 a month less in taxes. Switching state of residence will save enough to cover rent. And of course, Austin I believe, doesn't he believe. Doesn't he live in Utah? I don't think he lives in California, although he is part of the Silicon Valley community. And Newsom did chime in. He vows to stop the tax. Where are the prediction marks markets on the tax? Will this happen? While we look that up, let's pull up Gary Tan. He says it's time for Silicon Valley to actually get involved and organize in California. 1. Financially, tough times are ahead for California. California's government will almost certainly try to loot Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley will flee. 4.

D (110:35)

This.

B (110:36)

Will create a severe loss for the Bay Area in California and for the United States. 5. The only way out is for successful technologists to run and win for office at every level in the 2026 midterm elections, especially for governor.

A (110:50)

Quotes from Newsom. Newsom says, this will be defeated. There's no question in my mind I'll do what I have to do to protect the state. The governor has long opposed the wealth tax because of concerns it would stay. All.

B (111:03)

Of that is very, very complicated. But there's really good news because now you can book a hotel on the moon. A new startup backed by Nvidia NY Combinator is planning to develop the first hotel on the moon by 2032. I'm going. I'm going. It's starting at $416,000 per night. We'll see where that actually lands. You can book on their website. But we have the perfect guest to discuss because we have Glenn Fogel, the President and CEO of Booking.com hopefully we'll be able to book a hotel on the moon. We can ask. Ask him about it. He's in the Restream waiting room. Let's bring him in to the TVPN ultradome. Glenn, how are you doing? What's.

A (111:44)

Happening? I'm.

E (111:45)

Doing well. And that's so exciting to hear. Hotels on the Moon. I.

A (111:50)

Know, I love it. The TAM expander you guys Were looking for more, for more assets to bring on the platform. Why not go interplanetary? This thing is quite a lot of renders, so, you know, fingers crossed they can turn it into reality. Yeah.

E (112:05)

But, but, but here's the thing. Do you remember the TV series? I think this. Oh, God. It was amc. It was Mad Men. Do.

B (112:14)

You remember that? Yeah.

E (112:16)

There was an episode where the person who was supposed to be the head of Hilton, Conrad Hilton, and he'd hired, he'd hired the guy and he wanted to have the ad be about putting a.

A (112:26)

Hotel on the moon. Ahead of their time. Ahead of their time. Definitely. This company should, should go back and reference it. I'm sure there's. I'm sure there's some great copy buried in there, but fantastic to have you on the show. Would love, would love just an introduction on yourself and the journey on how you got here. Well.

E (112:46)

The CEO of Booking holdings and booking.com, which is the largest subsidiary of Booking holdings, we have a number of different companies that I think many of your watchers would know things like, not just booking.com but OpenTable, for example, or Kayak or Priceline, and people who are out in Asia certainly have heard of Agoda and a number of other companies as well. And we do travel OpenTable, of course, doing restaurant reservations. But we've been around for a long time. Priceline.com was the first one in the States and that went public in 1999. And I've been in the company since almost the start. I joined in 2000, so been around for a while. Where.

A (113:28)

Did, where were you before, before you joined? Before.

E (113:32)

I joined it in 2000, I was a head trader for a guy named Barton Biggs, who was kind of a legend on Wall street and Morgan Stanley Asset Management. And I left to join Priceline during that first Internet boom period. And I joined a week before the NASDAQ peaked in March of 2000, thereby proving a couple things. One, I absolutely should have left my job as trader because I just done what's known as top ticking. The.

A (113:59)

Trader. Amazing, amazing timing to leave. But then you're sitting there being like, am I going to. Am I going to have a job? Totally.

H (114:08)

Well.

A (114:09)

Yeah. What matters is you saw it through. Did you ever. Was there ever a point that you or any of your peers were like, okay, maybe the Internet is just over? Or was it like, hey, it's just like we needed to just really hunker down and we got ahead of our skis and this is all inevitable, but it's Just not like most things. It's not always up into the right forever. Well.

E (114:35)

Yeah, a couple things. First of all, certainly our stock went down. I'm going to do the reverse split number because it went to under $8 but stay listed. We had it actually do a reverse split. So.

B (114:47)

So.

E (114:47)

We'Ll call it what at that time, so you can see in the chart, it's $6 because we get it back up. So even my mother at the time thought like, gee, do you still have a job? Is the company got bankrupt yet or not? And I left a pretty good job to do this. But here's the thing. A long time ago, my career. I started out when I came out of college and this is in the 80s. My first job is I was an IT guy. Stanley again at Morgan Stanley. Different time period. I was in their back office doing coding for doing a whole bunch of real exciting things. One of the exciting things was things that we're doing in terms of algorithmic trading now. That was back in the day. We weren't calling it a. I know that's exactly what it was. You know, go from the mid-80s to joining in 2000. I really believe in the future of using technology to make life so much better in so many different ways. Priceline at the time was using technology to make it cheaper and easier to travel. So I never doubted the concept that technology is the. It's always been the future. I mean go back a couple hundred years, go back to the industrial revolution. Technology is a wonderful thing for improving the human condition. So I would not doubt that. I was looking certain about our cash position.

F (116:05)

I.

B (116:05)

Was there. Yeah.

A (116:07)

Never.

B (116:07)

Lost faith. How have you been processing all of the agentic commerce news? We had Harley from Shopify on the store on the show yesterday talking about what Google's doing. Obviously ChatGPT is interested in agentic commerce being able to complete transactions in the LLMs, in the chatbots, in the apps. How are you thinking about your strategy in a world where people want to purchase things through text and chat? Well.

E (116:38)

Look, people always want things to be easier and agentic commerce as a concept is fantastic. And we are doing a lot of work with all the frontier players. Absolutely. To be very hand in glove working together to come up with solutions using agentic ways so people can do things easier, faster, better, etc. Etc.

B (116:58)

That.

E (116:58)

Being said, it's going to take some time for things that are very complex like a lot of travel. Now I'm not doubting that we're going to be doing a lot of Agent travel transactions. Absolutely. It's just not going to be tomorrow. I'm really glad with some of the deals we've already done with all the players is not a single one that we haven't either set a deal, done a deal with, working with, making progress with, etc. But even more so is what we're going to do internally, what we're building ourselves. We have thousands of engineers. You know, one thing I don't know if your watchers or you watch your show really understand the size of our company. You know, we're 170, 175 billion market cap company. Hit.

A (117:40)

The gong, John. We got a gong here. We'd love to. We'd love to hit it on your behalf.

F (117:47)

What's.

E (117:48)

Even better is that, you know, that's twice as big as the next biggest player in travel. I'm talking, you know, distribution travel to all travel. Like number two, maybe it's Marriott today. Oh, wow. Maybe. And then after that it falls off pretty darn. The biggest airline in the world's about a third of our market cap. I mean, Expedia is a fit. Yeah. I mean, so we have the size, we've got the scale to do the work, to come up with these wonderful things that are going to be coming down the pike. Yep.

B (118:18)

So obviously it feels like it's advantageous to have as much experience as you have at the company for another tech transition. How are you thinking? We were talking to Harley about this. Like, is this the, Is this similar to the mobile moment or social moment? Obviously with Shopify, they think a lot about brands which were very much transformed by influencers showing off some legs, leggings or some product that you want to buy. And so you go right there and there was a debate, would that transaction happen on Instagram or on Facebook? It ultimately wound up happening on Shopify. But the ads platform was very valuable and there was an integration there. How are you tracking previous lessons from previous technology shifts and purchasing behavior to kind of prepare for the agentic transition if it happens this year or next year or whenever it happens. Yeah.

F (119:10)

And.

E (119:10)

Because it's so hard to predict the future, as we all know, is making sure you cover all the options, trying to balance the amount of resources you're putting into things that you're building now versus making sure you continue to improve what you currently have going on. That's producing the cash. I mean, that's the thing, is that it's always difficult when you have an ongoing entity like ours that's Doing very well. And our investors like seeing the cash flow that we produce. They like the growth that we're showing right now. And they are always cautious, as investors should be, is, where are you putting that cash that you're producing? Is it going to be put into things that are not going to produce future increased cash? Is it going to be wasted or not? I believe we got the right balance set up. We've got the right people. In terms of. You want to know, I'm asked this all the time. It's two questions. Are you going to be disintermediated by something new, something different, and B, are you growing fast enough right now to prevent that? I think we have it going well right now. I like the progress that we're making. I like the numbers are showing up and I like the new products we have coming out. So we'll see. But look, nobody has a guarantee. You have to every single day be working incredibly hard to keep up because the competition is very, very stiff. How.

B (120:31)

Difficult is it to. For an AI to act as a travel agent? Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. We've had this question where the AI models seem so powerful. They can build whole websites, they can write more complex code than I could write in a month. They can do it in just an hour. And yet I actually can't just say, hey, I need to get to New York, Book me a flight. Because I wind up having all these weird preferences. I don't, I don't want to lay over. I'm okay flying early, but I don't really want to fly late. Yeah.

A (121:02)

When people talk, every, every lab wants to build the best, you know, super assistance. And when I think about the moments where, like a real EA in my life has delivered the most value, it's when I'm like, okay, this meeting's running late. I'm going to miss my flight. I need a re, you know, and I'm just firing off a text, being like, you know, I need to switch the car to pick me up, like in an extra hour and I'm going to miss my flight. Find me the best flight. I don't want to layover. Like, I want to lay flat. Like all these details that today that still takes, you know, that still takes real time. And so I'm curious for you, like, where do these experience, where do you see these experiences actually sitting? Is it, is it in, you know, ChatGPT or Gemini or. It's. It's going to be sitting in Siri or will it be sitting on booking.com and you guys want to own that experience or both, right? Or.

E (121:54)

Will it be in many of the places you just mentioned? Because for example, right now let's, let's look at what we have right now. We have some. We have 60. Approximately 65% of the people who come to our site to buy something, do something, want to actually do that. They are coming to us direct. Now I'm doing that number. I'm not including our B2B business on the side there. But 65% of the people are coming in directly to our site. There's a loyalty thing. Why now? Why? Because.

D (122:21)

It'S easier. Because.

E (122:22)

We know who they are. We already have established certain things that they like and are able to provide them with that. That's great. The thing in the future though, with the ability of memory, of LLMs to remember what your preferences are over time, that is obviously a powerful thing. Now we are doing that within ourselves, creating our own ability to make sure. Your example, I want a flat bed, I only like to take the flight at night. All sorts of those things. Those are the things that we are putting in because what we really want is using technology to replace what you just said. That executive assistant who knows everything about you, who loves to make sure they do exactly what you want and you don't have to ask him or her how to do it. They know how to do it. That's what we are building. What's even more so because your EA should know but may not know, for example that I forgot I got to stop by and buy a present because I'm going to visit my friend in France. May not know that, but we want to have it so much so that we know so much about you. We know that not only we know that, we know that's going to take a 10 minute delay and oops, you may not make that flight because of the delay on the highway. So we're going to switch all this stuff around for you suggest should we do this because it looks like you're not going to make it. So then you can get on a flight, you don't miss the flight. And then because it's a new flight, we automatically are changing the car pickup that you have and we're changing because now your dinner reservations can be later. We're changing that too. And if there is no availability at that restaurant because we have open table, we're looking for a restaurant that's very similar to it right near it and we're going to put a new reservation for you and your friend there. And in addition, because we know you're going to be incredibly tired and you're going to be all upset, what we're going to do is get you a special favor from the hotel. So when you show up at the hotel, you got your favorite bottle of wine and all these things can be done. The technology is there. We just have to stitch it together. That's the hard part. How.

A (124:28)

Are you, how are you processing the rise of voice agents? I get really excited about, you know, there's so many moments still, even with the Internet, where you, if you're traveling, you end up having to like call a hotel or talk to somebody in person. Never really want to do that. Right. It's just like, give me the information, etc. But it feels like we're moving to a world where eventually it could just be agent to agent directly, no voice, but feels like we're going to. There's some middle ground where you have agent to human or voice agent to voice agent. And they're just having a conversation. Voice.

B (125:03)

Agent to like legacy phone tree, which is all recordings, but it's deterministic system. And just having an agent be able to run through that speeds things up. Well.

E (125:14)

One of the wonderful things about right now that's already, we're already doing it and other people are doing it too, is using Gen AI to really speed up and make that customer service issue go away. So that's something that's really powerful. And it is the idea that you don't want to spend time talking to somebody. You certainly don't want to be put on hold. You just want to solve the problem. And what we've been able to do with some of our vendors, some of the things we do internally is create a much better thing. When you need customer service, you can solve it instantly, almost. That's great. Creates a greater loyalty. Because I like using booking.com because I don't have to wait. It fixes it right away. That is a really powerful thing. But I agree with you. Going down, it's going to be a commodity. Everybody's.

B (126:00)

Going to be doing that. What's the key to a great celebrity partnership? Hiring spokesperson. Yeah.

E (126:08)

The great thing is that it ends up with more business than what you pay them. Yeah.

A (126:13)

There we go. What.

B (126:15)

Are the keys to success? What would you recommend? We noticed we were watching the Xbox launch at CES and Bill Gates is standing on stage and he's next to Dwayne the Rock Johnson and he refers to him just as Rock. It's Very funny. It's awkward in funny ways, but it's cool. It's interesting. Obviously, everyone knows the priceline negotiator, but what's the key to success? What would you recommend? When is the right time to bring in a celebrity? Like, do you have a mental model for this or have you just delegated it to someone else on your team? Like.

E (126:46)

How do you. Yeah, yeah. That's one of the important things is knowing what you know and knowing what you don't know and making sure that the person. You're spending a lot of money be the chief marketing officer that that person knows. Yeah.

H (126:57)

If.

E (126:57)

They don't, you have to get a different one. And.

F (126:59)

That'S why you're paying the money to.

B (127:00)

Make those decisions. But.

E (127:01)

Here'S the truth is this is an old saying. It's uncertain who really said it first, that half of your brand marketing is wasted. You just don't know which half is a problem. And that's the thing. And by the way, I love. I love it when you hit it and it goes out of the park, goes viral. Like you just mentioned. I know you. You've mentioned that one before about Bill and the Rock. But here's the thing is you can't predict those things. Sometimes you just hit that lightning in a bottle. A lot of the time it's just wasted money. Yeah.

A (127:30)

What's your workout routine? You're looking absolutely jacked. I gotta ask.

F (127:36)

Well.

E (127:37)

I'll be perfectly honest with you. I do work out every day. If I'm home, not traveling. Half the time I'm away from my home. And you know, there are a lot of gyms in Europe that don't have. A lot of hotels that don't have gyms. So you're doing it in the hotel room. You know, small hotel room and stuff. Always bring some bands so I can get something done. There.

B (127:56)

You go. But.

E (127:57)

I tell you, it's so important because, you know, one of the things when you're. You're doing these, every single person right now in the tech world, we're all working incredibly hard and to stay healthy, it's.

F (128:08)

Really important to work out. What.

A (128:11)

Do you. Have you ever. We've joked on the show before. We get frustrated at gyms having a dumbbell weight limit. We.

B (128:19)

Think it's because of the insurance. But most gyms, the weights, the dumbbells start up, stop at £40, £50. They don't. I.

A (128:25)

Think that could be a booking.com features like, I want hotels. Yeah.

F (128:30)

So.

E (128:31)

First of all, you guys are Big guys. Okay.

D (128:33)

Yeah. Let's.

E (128:34)

Face it, you know, six, eight and six one. I mean, you're 20 tall people, you're big people. Okay, Normal sized people. Don't worry about this quite as much. Okay?

F (128:42)

I.

A (128:42)

Know, but you have a small. But, but, you know, very passionate audience. Look, you. You.

E (128:49)

Know the answer to this, by the way. It's not the amount of weight you can do more reps, you get the same.

A (128:55)

Impact, just less weights, more. More.

E (128:58)

Reps, you'll be fine. I.

A (129:00)

Love it. Sometimes.

B (129:01)

You just want to stack a couple 45s on the bar and move a big number. How.

A (129:06)

Are you? No.

E (129:07)

No, wait, wait. This is important. Guys.

C (129:09)

You.

E (129:09)

Guys are young guys. Young 30s, late 20s. You can do that stuff. I'm 63 years old. I.

A (129:15)

Know, but you look 50. So that's why I asked.

B (129:20)

Recommendations. What's on the shelf behind you? What would you give to somebody, the next generation? What do you think is worth reading? Oh.

E (129:29)

God, there's so many things. There's not enough time to read everything. I'll give you some set of reading. Here's.

B (129:33)

Here's.

E (129:33)

A piece of advice I give all the time. I was, I was, I was actually in a classroom situation yesterday. Guest, guest lecturing something. And what I really like to get across is the idea of prioritization and self discipline. You know, there's a book out. You had to read it. It's 4,000. It's called 4,000 weeks. That's kind of like the average time you have a lifetime. Okay. You get the choice how you want to spend it, a lot of that. Make sure it's on the things that matter and things are important to you. And I see too many people wasting their time. I mean, I don't want to. I want denigrate social media or any of my partners or anything, but I'll tell you, a lot of people are wasting a lot of their time doing stuff that it has no impact in their life. And later on they may regret not having used that time more efficiently and more effectively. That's.

B (130:21)

Possible. That's one outcome. But it's also possible that I'm on my deathbed being like, I wish I watched a few more Instagram reels. I Wish I scrolled TikTok just for a couple more minutes. No.

A (130:33)

I think that what you're saying, there's a very real scenario in the future where people are towards the end of their life and they're just looking at their lifetime screen time on their iPhone, just saying, like, don't do this. Don't do this. I.

D (130:50)

One.

A (130:50)

More, one more serious question. How are you guys thinking about the live events category? Broadly? There's a lot of people talking about, excited about live events specifically because they feel.

B (131:03)

Because of that screen time you can.

A (131:06)

Do an insulated from AI. Yeah.

E (131:09)

Yeah. No, look, obviously there's a lot of truth to that. The people really are really enjoying those live event things. Now for us in the trial visitors, there was a lot of talk when you had the Taylor Swift effect, it was called where she'd be going, doing a concert and there would be an increase in travel to that location and then all the local economy would build up a little bit on that. But for us that are. Because we're so global and we are so all that's doing is transferring what would be the normal amount of travel to that location for us. We're indifferent. So for example, you know, we have this whole thing about World cup and you know, it's a partnership between the U.S. and Canada and Mexico and a lot of you are really hoping it's going to build some of the people coming to the US for travel and how much that can help our business. And be perfectly honest with you, I don't think it's going to make that much of a difference because all it means that the people do choose to come to watch World cup in the state. Come to the States for that. That's a trip they were going to take anyway. They haven't come to the States. We would have gotten that business anyway. Now it's good for the cities that have the actual games, they'll get the benefit. But us as a company, I don't think there's going to be a huge difference. One.

A (132:18)

Of the challenges of scale, you're like, we are the market. We're just shifting pieces around. I.

B (132:23)

Have one last question. That's right, we'll let you go. You travel a lot, you run a travel company. What's the secret to avoiding jet lag? Just.

E (132:33)

Keep doing it and then you'll be in normal state all the time. You'll.

A (132:37)

Never stop moving. This.

B (132:38)

Is good. I like that. Just.

E (132:40)

Don'T, just don't stop. That's.

B (132:41)

Essentially just man up, just suck it up and just disregard, just ignore it. I love that. That's the best advice I've heard. People will tell you all sorts of take your shoes off, do this, do that. I like that one. That's great. No.

E (132:53)

No, it's ridiculous. Okay.

F (132:55)

And.

E (132:55)

I've never felt jet lagged per se.

B (133:00)

This is breaking. We need to put this on a headline break it. It.

A (133:03)

Doesn'T exist. It's just a figment of your. A figment of your imagination. Yeah.

D (133:07)

No, it's not the imagination. It's.

H (133:09)

You're.

E (133:09)

Going from JFK to Amsterdam. Okay?

F (133:12)

It's.

E (133:13)

A six and a half hour flight. You're.

B (133:14)

Gonna. At.

F (133:15)

Best. Cause.

E (133:15)

You gotta wait to take over and then they wake you up when you're landing. Maybe you'll get four hours. Good. Maybe you're gonna be tired. It's not your leg. You got four hours sleep. That's.

B (133:24)

Why you're tired. Yeah.

A (133:26)

Yeah.

B (133:26)

There you go. Makes.

A (133:27)

Sense. Well, I. Hopefully the Rockets can get fast enough that when we're booking, we're booking a hotel on the moon. On booking dot com. Yeah, we. It'll just be like we just teleported. Well.

B (133:40)

Thank you so much. Super.

A (133:41)

Fun. Come back on again soon. Really enjoyed it.

C (133:45)

Cheers.

B (133:46)

Goodbye.

D (133:48)

Do.

B (133:48)

You want to change the world? Go to the New York Stock Exchange and raise capital. Raise capital at the New York stock. Just.

A (133:54)

Do it. Just do it. No more excuses. Yeah.

B (133:57)

It's our number one piece of advice this year. To anyone who asks, what advice would you give me? That's.

A (134:02)

Going to be our advice for our next guest. Just raise money at the New York. Hey, next round, JD do it in New.

B (134:08)

York Stock Exchange. Just.

A (134:09)

Just raise capital. Do.

B (134:11)

A little road show. Just do it. Stop making excuses. Yeah, really, just stop making excuses. Jd.

A (134:17)

JD.

B (134:17)

Here he is, the co founder with coverage. An absolute dog. We got some breaking news from him. J.D.

C (134:25)

How.

B (134:25)

You doing? Good to see you. He's.

A (134:27)

Back. Good.

D (134:27)

To see you guys. Welcome.

B (134:29)

Back to the show. Glenn.

D (134:31)

Has energy for 60. Whatever.

B (134:33)

Oh.

A (134:33)

Yeah, that's how I was like, I need to know this guy's workout routine, everything. He's like, jet lag doesn't exist.

B (134:39)

There's a couple of these corporate athletes. Strauss Zelnick, the CEO of Take Two, maker of GTA, is absolutely diced. He's in his 60s. He's on the COVID of Men's Fitness. Every once in a while, there's a couple people that figure out how to just keep that motor going. I'm a big believer in the 65 to 95 era of a business person's career. Warren Buffett, loaded with testosterone, had a great. Everything.

A (135:02)

Before that was a warmup. Everything.

B (135:04)

Else is a warmup. 65 is where the real game starts. That's where the compounding begins. But you're much younger than 65. But you have some breaking news for us. Give.

D (135:12)

It to us it's all Peptides. You.

B (135:14)

Wouldn'T know. Okay, I guess that's the news. But no, tell us about the business. Tell us what's going on in your world. Yeah.

G (135:22)

So.

D (135:22)

We are arguably in the most boring of the enterprise businesses you could possibly be in, I think.

B (135:30)

Businesses.

A (135:30)

Not boring to us. Not.

B (135:32)

Boring to us. That's why we're here every day. That's why we have a gong. And I know we're going to ring it. Yeah.

C (135:37)

So.

D (135:37)

We run insurance. We're modernizing insurance brokerage. Basically we replace the traditional insurance broker with a ramp for risk management. Oh, wrong side. There we go. And we just raised $42 million Series B from founder.

B (135:58)

Great.

F (135:59)

Stuff. Can't.

A (135:59)

Even get a word in. We're.

B (136:01)

Just having too much fun. Hit him with the flashback.

H (136:05)

What's.

B (136:05)

American Eagles on that? Watch out, watch out, J.D. watch.

D (136:09)

Out.

A (136:19)

Anyways, once you, once you get your bearings, you can continue. Who.

B (136:24)

Did the deal? It's.

D (136:26)

Been awesome. I'm teaming back up with Keith Thor, Boy, who is my co founder at Opendoor. And we brought on Sequoia as a new investor. Amazing. The.

B (136:34)

PayPal mafia coming together. You're a made man. Yeah.

D (136:37)

You know, it's, I think it's the first time Keith and Ruloff have co led a deal together. So it's the first time who led something since PayPal. Yeah.

H (136:48)

You're.

B (136:48)

A wise guy. Bringing.

A (136:49)

Getting the band. Getting the band back together. That's.

B (136:52)

Fantastic. Well, walk me through. $42 million Series B. What does that actually mean? Because insurance, like at some point you have to have reserves. Is there like, are you acting as media? And there's a different financial institution that's dealing with the actual, the capital that goes towards that. Is this capital going towards the operations, the hiring, building of the product or is it actually like if there's a insurance claim, you're paying it out of this $42 million. How does that all work? So.

D (137:25)

What'S cool about our business is everyone else in the industry gets paid more the more money that, that you spend on insurance. Right. They're, they're brokers. We don't bear risk. We're just helping you be placed with the right insurance carriers. Yeah. And so what we've done, which is actually like shockingly innovative and say, hey, instead of charging you based on how much you spend, we're going to charge you based on how complex you are and how much servicing you need. Sure. And how much product you need. And so we replace that with a flat Fee and then say, hey, we're going to net out all the commissions from your, from your policies. You're not going to pay commission as much as legally possible and it's just one fee for us for service. And what that does is it aligns incentives. And as a result, you know, over 700 companies now have moved over from, you know, Gopuff and Eat Sleep to Chomps Bombas, tons of these incredible businesses. I.

A (138:16)

Thought you were saying when you first said that, I was like, wait, Gopuff had an enterprise insurance product? No.

B (138:24)

No, no. So.

D (138:26)

So we don't do the insurance. Yeah.

B (138:28)

So, so almost like Asset Light. I don't know exactly the term, but more of Meteor platform technology company. But at the same time I feel like I've heard so many amazing stories about. It's really hard, but once you get the insurance business actually up and running, you wind up with Berkshire Hathaway or what's happening with Apollo. Like you just have this, this float and this cash machine that can go towards other things. Is that enticing to you? Even if it's going to happen when you're in your 65 to 95 year old run, is that something that might happen decades from now or is that just like never in the picture because it's fundamentally incompatible with what you're doing? I.

D (139:08)

Think you have to start with your customer. Right.

F (139:10)

When.

D (139:10)

You go from the oh, wow, that's really enticing. You start twisting upside down to find a way to make a bad business. This decision. Sure. And this is kind of what I think some of our earlier competitors did in the last round of insure tax is they said, well let's, that looks really nice, let's go after that. And they were fundamentally misaligned with our customers. Our job is never to. Our job is to get you the cheapest insurance possible for the best coverage. Right. As soon as we start selling our own book, there's no way for us to be able to do that job. And so we don't do reserves. The 42 million we've raised is for product development and sales and growth. Unfortunately, we haven't found a way to spend money yet. As a company. We haven't touched a penny of our Series A. When we raised this, it was kind of more to say, yeah, we were profitable last year, which is crazy. Wow. But I'm confident we will solve that problem this year. Yeah.

A (140:02)

How does this actual sales cycle work? People are signing up for a specific like insurance plan and then there's like, you know, it's cyclical. Like how. How is that motion working for you guys? Yeah.

D (140:17)

So usually it starts with an introduction or like, you know, someone's saying, hey, you got to talk to these guys. They're awesome. And our first conversation is, they're already onboarded on the product. Let's get them on. We'll show them exactly how it works. Instead of like going through PDFs and everything else, you see everything in one place. And we're going to do this very strong, like in detail risk analysis, saying, top to bottom, here's your company. Here's like the opportunity for someone to get hurt slipping and falling in your restaurant. Here's what happens when someone in your manufacturing facility, you know, might get injured or if a product injures a customer. All the different cases if you might need a product recall. And running through those scenarios and saying, this isn't is where you are currently covered and not covered and how we can fix it. And also here's how you benchmark against everyone else just like you. So instead of working with that sort of generalist insurance broker, we bring on this specialized team, almost like the Navy SEALs of, you know, product recall, and say, here's exactly what you need to do to deal with this when it happens. And for us, risk management doesn't end with insurance products. It goes through, like, what do you actually do when that happens? What's your playbook for dealing with a product recall? What lawyers do you need to talk to? How do you actually, like, file this with the relevant regulatory bodies? There's a whole bunch of stuff. And we do this for customers in kind of every single industry that we work with, from, you know, aerospace and defense to health care to construction to consumer brands. How.

B (141:40)

Do you think is insurance playing a factor in, like, these legal cases with the big AI labs? I saw Anthropic paid like a billion dollar fine for scraping some books. And it's just something that if I'm underwriting Anthropic at Seed, it's like, how am I going to predict that they're going to scrape books that they shouldn't? And this lawsuit's going to happen, it's going to be this huge settlement. And that feels like something that would be way out of coverage. But are people even thinking about insuring for these entirely new dynamics? That can happen only in the AI age? Absolutely.

F (142:18)

And.

D (142:19)

There'S really cool new carriers who are kind of stepping in. And we've seen whenever there's a new innovation in kind of business, some new insurance company that becomes A giant leader is the first one to come in and step in and say, hey, I'm willing to take a. Understand, like really understand this and take a bat. Interesting. And so Coalition did this with cyber insurance. It's now a five plus billion dollar company where no one else really understood what cyber insurance meant. Yeah, they came into that. Now they're doing, you know, really well across dno, a number of their spaces. Same thing with crypto, that's been more kind of broadly adopted. But. But insurers like Realm done amazing there. Oh.

B (142:51)

Interesting. And in that walk me through that cyber insurance example, do they have to raise money? Are they raising debt? How do you. If you weren't doing what you're doing and you were just building a pool of capital to insure companies directly, what does the build out of a company like that actually look like? I've never really thought about. Yeah.

D (143:12)

You literally need to raise tens to hundreds of millions of dollars of equity and then it's like. Yeah.

C (143:19)

To.

D (143:19)

Collateralize the issue and then partner with. So you start by partnering with existing insurance companies if you can, but if they don't understand it and unwilling to underwrite it, you have to just raise huge pools of capital. Wow.

F (143:32)

I.

D (143:32)

Mean, this is the oldest business of all time. It's is basically Lloyd's of London is a syndicate of people who were just pooling capital for these. Literally pooling capital for risk, for ships. Yeah.

A (143:44)

Yeah. Traces.

B (143:45)

All the way back to the dawn of venture, the whaling and whatnot. Fascinating, fascinating. Well.

D (143:49)

You get these crazy things in insurance too, where like the words that are used don't make any sense. You're like, why would trucking be called marine? Well, it's because it's. You're shipping. You're literally shipping things, you know, on ships over water. And they just adapted it. Wait.

B (144:04)

So marine insurance refers to trucking, like physically? Yeah.

D (144:07)

Like it's called inland. Inland Marine. Marine.

B (144:10)

Interesting.

D (144:11)

Yeah.

H (144:11)

Wow.

D (144:12)

Wow.

B (144:13)

What an awesome industry. Well, congratulations on all the progress. Where.

A (144:17)

Where are you guys, where are you guys seeing the benefits from AI in the business? Not on the product side, outside of coding.

D (144:27)

I think what's really cool is like, we can measure this stuff, right? And like, I think last year I would have said, oh, we get rid of data entry, we get rid of whatever. Now I can say each person in our team is writing three times as many emails today as they were six months ago. Like, we've scaled the business, we're breaking the scaling laws of financial services through AI, where we're pulling in all the context and it's becoming much less human reliant on the day to day operation of the business. So the people are actually just focusing on like high end problem solving strategy, the things that, you know, people are good at. But I have no idea how sort of the entry level kind of paper pushing jobs are going to keep doing this because we just don't need them. Interesting.

B (145:11)

Where are you building the business? So.

D (145:13)

The company is based in New York on the odd man out in Austin and I think in San Francisco. If you're building a model company, you got to be an sf. If you're building applied AI in financial services, it's just much easier to do that in New York. Like the people actually understand what that means. And so for us, we don't sell software, right? Like we're building a competitor to Marsh Aon, locked in these kind of 50 to $100 billion brokers and we're coming in and saying, look, we can't sell software to you. You can't buy software. You have no idea how to even deploy this. You have like 10 different factions in your order to do this. If we were to do that, we would do that maybe in San Francisco. In New York you get to go head to head and say, look, I'm just going to go after your client and we're just going to do your job better. Have.

B (145:59)

Your lunch. Yeah. Your.

D (146:03)

Lunch is four martinis. Yes.

B (146:06)

That's amazing. Well, thank you so much for stopping by and giving us the noise. This.

A (146:10)

Just makes so much sense. Going in and talking with coverage and having them not just be incentivized for you to spend the most amount of money, but to get the best plan and actually get the most just out of it. It's just, I love, I love the alignment. I'm.

D (146:27)

Waiting for you guys to do your first like event so I can show you. You know, we'll cover all your like awesome giant conferences with fireworks and stuff. You're inevitably gonna want in there. Yes.

B (146:36)

My catch on fire. We.

A (146:37)

Need, we're trying to get our intern catches. We want to get a fog machine. We want like a CO2 cannons in here. That.

B (146:43)

Could be very risky and so suck all the air out of here. We're.

A (146:46)

Insured. Not.

B (146:48)

Doing that yet without good insurance. I.

D (146:51)

Actually own two industrial snow machines, so if you ever need to rent one, just give me a shout. Whoa.

B (146:56)

We needed that during Christmas. Where were you when we were dressed up as Santa Claus? We had the fake snow going over the show, but next year real snow for sure. Real.

D (147:05)

Snow. I'm shipping it out. Thank.

B (147:07)

You so much. Great.

A (147:08)

To see you, J.D. congrats.

B (147:10)

Goodbye. Let's kick it over to this video by storm crew on YouTube. The boss asked me to take on 10 robots by myself. An individual has assembled a set of 10 unitree, or humanoid robots, got in the boxing ring and fought them. And the results are very, very interesting. We'll have to sort of click through a little bit of this video, but he fights incremental amounts of. We've.

A (147:43)

Been wanting somebody to do this forever. I've.

B (147:45)

Wanted to do this personally. I want to fight the humanoids. Look at this. So it's one on one, and it's not too bad. He can just hold it off. He's just. He's just holding it. Can't do anything. Now, keep in mind, this is the unitree. I believe it's the G1, the cheaper, smaller version. Now he's one on three. Let's see what happens. He's kicked. They're kicking. Oh, he does the bull Rush. That's a. I had not thought of that strategy. Always pushing them over. And with these small unit tree guys, once you get them down, they can get up, but they're pretty easy to pin. He starts. He starts fighting five. This is one on five. Now.

A (148:18)

He needs a flashback. And.

B (148:19)

He said they are hitting him. They are hitting him. He's taking some blows. Oh, he knocks one down. That's a good hit. Their.

A (148:24)

Movement looks surprising. Oh.

B (148:26)

He picks it up. Oh, we're going WWE mode. He picks it up and slams it down. Oh, he gets back up. He's.

A (148:32)

Got to throw it down. Really? They need bigger robots because it looks like.

B (148:35)

He'S just bullying when they pop up. That is. That is. That is a scary animation. Okay.

E (148:39)

Picking.

B (148:40)

It up and throwing it out of the ring. Oh, my God. Slammed onto the ground. Slammed onto the ground. Well.

A (148:47)

He finally. He's.

B (148:49)

Fighting, what, six or seven here. They're really closing in at this point. This is where it starts to get intimidating. Gets.

A (148:55)

A little hairy. I.

B (148:56)

Feel like seven. You know, you can't keep your eyes on all of them, but if you use them against each other. Yeah, Creating the pile. The pile method. That's what you want to go for. You want to create a heap of humanoid robots. This.

A (149:08)

Is the only benchmark, the Terminator benchmark. Terminator.

B (149:11)

Bench. This.

A (149:11)

Is the only benchmark I really care about. Who.

B (149:13)

Wins? AI or humans. But then he adds the G2, which is the newer unitree robot. And this one is a Little bit more athletic and things start to get a little bit riskier. Do.

A (149:24)

We think they're teleoperated? I.

B (149:26)

Imagine all of this is tele operated. This seems like some sort of integration or some AI. We're.

A (149:33)

Ad appreciators. I.

B (149:34)

Don'T know what's going on. Let's skip to the final bit. I think we can skip ahead. I think it starts at 208. Maybe we can see robot 10x. That.

A (149:45)

Was a clean. Yeah.

B (149:46)

So he's boxing the big guy and he hits. Yeah, it's. It's pretty. He.

E (149:50)

It's.

B (149:50)

Knocked on the ground. It's not looking good for humanity. Very, very rough. If we skip to. I.

A (149:57)

Think he's getting a little fatigued. Oh.

B (149:59)

Yeah, he is. He's.

A (150:00)

Running out of gas. It's.

B (150:02)

Tiring. I think. I.

E (150:04)

Think the conclusion.

A (150:06)

Headbutt.

B (150:07)

From a scene. Look at that. That looks very dangerous. I think the conclusion of this video is that he loses. You know, who knows how scripted this is. It's a lot of fun. Yeah.

F (150:16)

A.

A (150:16)

Lot of cuts. A.

B (150:17)

Lot of cuts. You know, it's mostly entertainment, but it's good entertainment. Challenge yourself to fight robots with difficulty levels. Race ranging from 1 to 10 robots. See how many you can ultimately KO. That could be a good. That could be a good sort of. You know those VR centers where you go and do VR in person. Yeah.

A (150:33)

You.

B (150:33)

Could go and do this in your local. Put that next to your CrossFit gym. Anyway.

A (150:37)

We have our Lambda Lightning round. Yes.

E (150:42)

Nick.

B (150:42)

From Sandstone. He's the co founder and CEO. He's in the Restream waiting room. Get.

A (150:47)

That gong ready. And.

B (150:47)

Now he's in the TVP and ultra now. Nick, how are you doing? What's happening? Let's.

C (150:51)

Get the gong going. Let's.

B (150:53)

Get the gong going. How much did you raise? What's going on? We're.

C (150:56)

Announcing our $10 million seed round. Sequoia.

A (151:00)

There you go.

F (151:04)

A.

A (151:04)

Humble mango seed. We love to see it. 10.

B (151:06)

Million. Real question. 10 you versus 10 humanoid robots. Do you think you could beat them up? I.

C (151:12)

Don'T think so. Okay. But you're the CEO, you gotta lead. We all need those robots in our life. We're gonna get them in the office as soon as we can. And I think that's your first round to come. Work at Sandstone is you actually have to fight off the robots to get into the office. There.

A (151:30)

You go. That's.

B (151:31)

A good qualifier. You're building AI for in house legal teams. I imagine if the humanoid robots get deployed and they start harassing people. The in house legal teams will be. It's.

C (151:43)

A neptapalling robot, huge for our market. But.

B (151:47)

This is something we've actually been excited about. We've been wondering where legal AI will land. There's obviously companies that are selling to large firms. You can do some stuff in the apps by yourself, but that feels a little bit risky. Sometimes the chat apps will push back on you. Hey, I'm not a lawyer, I don't want to give you this type of advice. And maybe you don't want to upload your employment agreement to an app that will ultimately train on it and maybe leak your information at some point. So how are you thinking about building the product the go to market the value prop in a world where the other platforms exist and there are some DIY options? Yeah.

C (152:27)

I mean, first of all, thanks for having me guys. It's great to be here. The way that we've thought about approaching the in house market is really from sort of two pain points that we saw. And I saw this when I was serving legal teams at McKinsey and as an engineer, in house teams have a ton of requests that come in from the business, from external users. They're basically getting bombarded with emails and slacks and teams messages. Right. And they don't have a single platform in the same way that we have Linear or Jira, if you were an engineer 10 years ago to manage your work and who's doing what. And so that's not even yet an AI problem, but rather a data problem. And so, so that was the first thing that we wanted to solve, which was like, can we sit across all these systems that lawyers have to deal with and pull in all the requests into one place so that when the AI goes to redline the agreement or answer the question or draft the contract, it already has context on the entire thread that you're working on as well as all your other business systems. So one of the issues with, you know, whether it's Claude or Chat GPT or even some of the legal solutions out there is, you know, I open a contract and I ask for it to be reviewed. But if it's a sales agreement, I need to know like, you know, have we worked with this company before? Is it high acv? How does it compare to our other deals in Salesforce? Does the seller have a good relationship? Right. These kinds of things are like what the lawyer actually goes and like they spend admin time doing to go gather that information. We want to be the context layer that pulls that all in. So when you go open that ticket in your system in Sandstone, which has the sales agreement, all that context is there and ready for you. So.

B (154:01)

How do you pull in all that data? Are you a big like zapier customer and you're integrating with everything on day one? Are you writing MCP integrations, API integrations? Is it client by client? And it's more high touch because you're going with really big companies as starting customers and you go to their in house legal team and if they're using some custom CRM, you'll build a customer custom CRM integration because it's important to them. How do you go down the stack of integrations to get that full context? Yeah.

C (154:32)

So mostly API integrations. I think there's some MCP that we're working with.

F (154:38)

The.

C (154:38)

Way that we think about it is being pretty opinionated about what data from your CRM or your ERP is important for legal workflows. And so we're able to on day one have the team come in, set up an integration and essentially tell us what are the, according to these critical fields that we need, where can we find them in your system? Right. Salesforce systems are very complex and so we ask them, hey, here's the 10 things that we're going to need. Where do these live within your Salesforce? So that we can much more easily query that going forward. This has allowed us to, even for some five to 10 person legal teams, we can onboard them within a week with multiple integrations. And I think one of the things that's important is this isn't going to be an overnight problem. No legal team is going to solve their data issue in one night. But if you can integrate even Google Drive and maybe your contract management tool and slack and that's 50 to 60% of your data, that's going to change your ability to answer questions and get legal work done by, you know, several fold and then we can continue to integrate over time. What.

A (155:38)

Are, what's the mindset of your buyers? I think, you know, if you're, if you're Harvey or one of these other legal AI players and you're selling into a law firm, they're doing this dance right now where they're like, we're going to make you way more efficient. But, but there's this kind of the elephant in the room is like, okay, is this going to impact billables? But if I'm an in house legal team, that's not really on my mind. I just want to deliver great work and protect the company and keep the company compliant across a bunch of different dimensions. I imagine there could be more pull, more excitement, more urgency to adopt than maybe some big law firm that's like, hey, we've done it this way for a long time and, and our business is doing great right now. We don't need too much AI. Yeah.

C (156:28)

Before I started Sandstone, most of my work was at McKinsey, helping big law firms think about AI and tech strategy. And we would actually go out and deploy AI solutions for some of these big firms. And I think the hardest thing was you have to go to every partner in every practice area as if it's its own business and kind of sell, you know, a one off solution to them and get them on board with the fact that, hey, this might have some implications on your billable hour model going forward. Within house, it's completely different, right when, when they see solutions that can take a lot of the admin work off their plate. Generally the GC thinks, hey, now my team can go focus on being in more of the business strategy conversations and become more proactive around potential risks and issues with our company rather than, you know, reactive and trying to play catch up on all the requests that we have coming in. I think this is like one of the bigger paradox paradoxes within legal and within AI more broadly is like as legal teams get more efficient on the admin side and collecting the context which we're working on, they're going to be able to be in more business discussions, protect the company from our risk, but also have more work ultimately. And so, you know, a lot of our legal teams, I anticipate they'll continue to grow as they adopt more AI, but they'll just do it in a more effective way for the business. And we'll see a world where like, you know, the top law firms in the future need to be AI native and enabled. But I think the top legal teams in the future and even the top companies will have to have like these native legal teams similar to how, you know, ramp. I think if you're using RAMP as a smaller company and your finance team is using it, you're probably spending a little bit less on services that you typically might have on the financial and accounting side. And it's also helping your business move faster. I think historically we didn't see that in finance. You see the same in HR with workday and so I think legal will get there over time. How's.

A (158:12)

Growth been? Growth.

C (158:14)

Has been, has been great. So we started working on this, you know, five months ago. We've got dozens of companies using it today. We got, we got dozens of companies using it today. You know, a mix of earlier, smaller in house teams all the way up to Fortune 500s. Our team is up for the Fortune 500 for sure. Our team is a team of 15 engineers and lawyers in New York and Brooklyn. One of our mantras is that everyone ships. So we have four lawyers on our team. Every single one of them codes. Three of them are actual full time engineers. My co founder was a lawyer, he became an engineer. We have a general counsel who became a software engineer for five years and they're shipping every day. And so that's sort of how we want to build this. We want to build this like a, a tech company would build today. And everyone has some sort of a legal background or engineering background. And whether you have that from your experience or it's something that you've learned by being at Sandstone. Well.

B (159:16)

Congratulations on the round. Congratulations on the progress. The.

A (159:20)

Company just makes so much sense, such.

B (159:21)

A short amount of time. Congratulations. Fantastic.

A (159:23)

Yeah, very, very cool. I'm sure you'll be back on this quarter. That's my bet. That's my bet. Predictive.

C (159:31)

Great.

A (159:31)

Great to meet you and good luck out there. We'll.

B (159:33)

Talk soon. Rest of your day. Goodbye. Up next we have Rob Slaughter of Defense Unicorns. You got to check his website out. It's.

A (159:43)

Fantastic. Intense name, very cute for himself, very cute name for his business. And.

B (159:49)

Then intense business because he's getting software to war fighters. He's in the restream waiting room. Let's bring him in to the TVPN ultra dome. How.

A (159:58)

Are you doing, Rob? Welcome to the show. Look at that, look at that. Friendly unicorn. Friendly.

B (160:03)

Unicorn. Please introduce yourself, introduce the company. Tell us what you're building and how it's going. Yeah, Rob Slaughter, you know, spent my career in the military. I spent about 13 years active duty. Got out with some co founders about five years ago. Like.

C (160:19)

To joke around that I spent first.

B (160:20)

Half of my career struggling with software. In the back half of my career, your career trying to solve the software delivery challenges. Started this company because, you know, we saw a real huge problem. You know, it's hard to tell because the.

G (160:33)

Most, most of the ecosystem, most of.

B (160:35)

The industry, especially on the defense or especially on the tech side, doesn't have a ton of exposure to defense. You obviously read the big headlines, so you get the big news. Everybody understands we have the best military in the world. You know, the recent operation in South America obviously highlights this stuff, but there's real significant tech challenges that, you know, as a company, we really strive to solve. So we're super excited to talk about the Series B and, you know, announce a lot of the good stuff that we're doing. How much did you raise? How much? We have officially raised 136 million.

E (161:12)

So.

B (161:12)

It'S quite, you know, fantastic. You know, we're obviously excited to get back to building. Obviously love what we do. And you're a unicorn now, which is amazing.

A (161:24)

Because we gotta, we gotta, we gotta do a capital allocator acknowledgment. Bain Capital is the leading the round. It.

B (161:33)

Feels like if you put unicorn in the name of your startup, you're really asking for, like you're, you're calling your shots so aggressively that everyone's gonna be like, oh, they, they'll never do it. And you did it, so congratulations. I.

A (161:44)

Do, I do wonder if there was ever, you know, during the deal process, they were like, well, we want to do nine. Yeah.

B (161:50)

But 990, like, I'm sorry, I can't possibly. It will destroy the brand. Where does the name come from? Yeah, so a couple of things. First and more. First.

G (162:01)

And foremost, we hire unicorns. And so it's hard to find those people.

B (162:06)

That are mission focused, you know, typically.

G (162:08)

Have their clearances. They.

B (162:12)

Typically have clearances. They're based in the US that's the other thing. So one of the biggest things is that we hire defense unicorns. The other thing is if we're successful as a company, one of the biggest things we'd like to see in the ecosystem is it's not going to be just.

G (162:27)

1, 10, 20 defense unicorns in the ecosystem. There's.

B (162:31)

Actually going to be hundreds or thousands. So just like, quick back of the envelope.

G (162:35)

Numbers for folks. You.

B (162:37)

Know, you look at somebody like Nvidia and they do, you know, 200 billion ish a year revenue. You know, you have a Department of War that spends a trillion a year. That's.

G (162:47)

5,5X that. And.

B (162:48)

You know, as you guys mentioned earlier on the show, you know, Trump's talking.

G (162:51)

About increasing that to 1.5 trillion. Yeah. And.

B (162:55)

So when you think about this from like a market opportunity perspective, what you actually find out is that there's most most likely, probably several, you know, multitrillion dollar companies. And then when you cascade that down, what you're actually going to find is that there's not just dozens, but hundreds of defense unicorns that should be entering the ecosystem. Okay.

A (163:15)

Very cool. And I agree. I think, I think it'll be positive for the ecosystem.

D (163:23)

How.

A (163:23)

Do you guys work with other software companies? Like what? Like break down the platform for us and how the, how everything actually works. Yeah.

B (163:32)

So.

G (163:33)

First talk about the problem. One.

B (163:36)

Of the biggest issues is it's a.

G (163:37)

Combination of three things. One.

B (163:39)

These are mostly air gap systems. And to define air gap, air gap is either fully disconnected, semi disconnected, or extremely high firewall. So think about like security police policy settings to where things like GitHub are inaccessible. The next issue is like the super high cybersecurity standards and a lot of the accreditation standards that the government expects. And then the third thing is that there's actually a huge skill gap delta between what you see on industry expectations and what you typically see in like military spaces. Not just the defense industrial base, but, but a lot of times the people who are actually operating these systems are actually active duty airmen, soldiers, sailors and marines. And so a lot of the technologies that.

G (164:22)

We work with are kubernetes based on. And so to just say, you know, you.

B (164:27)

Know, how this is really operating is you have people generally wearing a uniform that has to actually operate things. That's incredibly complex. Their core day job is, is firing missiles and you know, guns on target. Their primary day job is not IT operations. And so what we do as a company is we have an open source baseline called UDS that allows people to integrate.

G (164:49)

In an open source fashion. We.

B (164:51)

Have the ability to take those applications and you know, unclassified environments, classified environments. And really our bread and butter is extending those to actual edge weapon systems. So things, you know, F16s, F22s. Our largest customer is Department of Navy, specifically.

G (165:07)

The submarine community. And.

B (165:09)

So, you know, really for us it's about how do we have like a.

G (165:12)

Whole of nation approach, you know, if.

B (165:15)

We'Re going to enter in a near peer adversary type of engagement, how do we actually have the ability to inject latest and greatest technology from anywhere around the country to some of these new weapons systems? Last question for me. I remember talking to Shyam Sankar at Palantir and he told this amazing anecdote about the early days of Palantir. They built a piece of software, put a bunch of dots on a map. He goes to deliver it and the machine that they tried to install it on had 1 megabyte of RAM or something and so it just couldn't run the software. And I'm wondering, you have this Panasonic toughbook on your website. How do you think or how do you work or do you work with your customers to Understand where products can be actually deployed. Because once you're beyond the air gap, you're probably doing more things on device at the edge. What are the hardware constraints? Constraints? I imagine that there's a ton in the age of AI, you can't just run llama locally on some 10 year old toughbook. How are you working with clients on understanding hardware and how it will enable their software to be delivered? Yeah, you nailed the problem, which is in these military systems, if you want to do a software update, you effectively have.

G (166:33)

To update the hardware. And.

B (166:34)

That'S why the hardware is so out of date, is because for the new iterations of systems, they've struggled to integrate it, it hasn't worked successfully. So that latest and greatest program that was.

G (166:45)

Supposed to deliver didn't deliver. So.

B (166:47)

You'Re stuck with a legacy system. Now that happens two or three times and before you know it, people are still stuck on Windows 95. You.

G (166:55)

Know, to take your true story, you.

B (166:57)

Know, those types of things are super common. So how do we actually find success? How do we actually enable the warfighter? Well, if you actually make it easy enough.

G (167:05)

To deliver, in many cases you don't.

B (167:07)

Have to update the hardware. In your example, certainly you do. It's already gone too far. But.

G (167:12)

A lot of cases what we're doing.

B (167:13)

Is we're finding certain weapon systems, they've had a hardware refresh, if you will say a year or two ago. It's not the latest and greatest, but it can actually run way more software than.

G (167:25)

What was available two years ago. Can.

B (167:27)

You actually do a software update on that slightly older hardware to make it mission effective? And.

G (167:32)

Then you also nailed a key fundamental.

B (167:35)

Point which is these things, modern AI, it's a memory Hawk. And if you're going to war with outdated hardware, which is the reality, and you're trying to get the latest and greatest AI, you actually have to have the ability to update the software on demand. So you might be flying a mission and saying, hey, I need this specialized local AI model. And then the next day you're running a new mission and you might actually need.

G (167:59)

A different AI model. The.

B (168:01)

Way war is conducted today, that would actually be a full reset. That'd be a whole new maintenance period. The jets or the navy ship would actually go down. You know, it's not really viable with defense unicorns. You actually have that capability. That is good to hear. Well, congrats on all the progress. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Break it down for us. I.

A (168:21)

Love a business where it's so Clear that you had to experience the problem as a team for a decade and makes so much sense to just keep hiring veterans that have experienced the real pain, not just heard about it on a podcast or something like that. So super, super exciting and really congratulations on all the progress. We'll.

B (168:43)

Talk to you soon. Yeah.

A (168:44)

Great to meet you. Have.

B (168:45)

A good rest of your week. We'll talk to you soon. Cheers. Goodbye.

F (168:48)

Up.

B (168:49)

Next, we have the co founder and CEO of Benchling, Carl, calling in from the JP Morgan Healthcare Conference. We are very excited to welcome Saji to the show. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. How are you doing? I'm.

D (169:04)

Doing well. Thanks for having me guys. Thanks.

B (169:06)

For hopping on the show first. I mean, kick us off with an introduction on yourself and Ben Schling. I think most people are familiar, but we'd love to get an update on the shape of the business today. And then I want to go into the JP Morgan Healthcare Conference conference as well. Sounds.

D (169:20)

Great. Yeah. I'm the co founder and the CEO of Benchling. We make software that helps scientists discover and develop new medicines. We spent about 10 years helping bring science to the cloud. It was pretty much trapped on premise and in spreadsheets before that. And then today we're very focused on bringing AI to scientists everywhere by putting models and simulation directly in the workflow of scientists and building agents that automate all the toil and drudgery that's that drug discovery is filled with. Yeah.

B (169:49)

Someone was pitching me cursor for bio and I said that can't happen because there's no VS code for bio and Love open source or hate it. Like it's just, it seems like it's just a fact that if you can't fork something quickly, how are you going to spin up and grow as quickly as Cursor has grown. Has that proven true? Do you feel like you're the cursor for bio and that you're set up structural? They're.

A (170:15)

The Benchling for Benchling? Yeah.

B (170:17)

Really? I mean I shouldn't even try. Yeah.

E (170:21)

But.

B (170:21)

Walk me through what you're actually building. Yeah.

D (170:24)

Yeah. I think AI in bio is kind of like. It's kind of like GPT without the chat. So GPT came out and like it didn't explode until someone put the right interface on it. That's how I feel. A lot of AI in bio where you've got these amazing new models and capabilities for doing different tasks. But making a medicine is so hard and complex that putting it all together in the right interface and making it super easy for the scientists in the labs to actually use is a really difficult problem. And that's what we're focused on at benchling. And.

B (170:56)

What'S the, we've seen in coding, which I think people are most familiar with, you know, autocomplete gets better and better. Then you get sort of the back and forth, the copy paste from the LLMs, then you get the fully agentic prompt systems cloud code. And is there something similar happening where there's an autocomplete for bio before there's an agent for bio? Like what is the shape of the interaction that the scientist is having with the various ways you can interact with AI models? I.

D (171:30)

Think there's even lower hanging fruit than that. We have customers where they're using our AI agents to ingest all this data that's trapped in spreadsheets and PDFs and sharepoints that's, you know, been, you know, it's 6, 10, 15 years old. The people who made the data have like long moved on and they're able to understand what's been done before and sometimes not even rerun experiments. We had a customer who, you know, brought 10,000 different experiments into benchling that previously hadn't been touched. And a scientist was about to run some studies that would have taken about eight months and they realized that someone else had already done the work many years ago and they were able to cut a bunch of them out. And like life science is just full of examples like that that's going to help compress the time it takes to make drugs and get them to market. Where do you. We're.

A (172:15)

Not even at cursor yet. Yeah, where do you think AI is overhyped in life sciences and where do you think it's underhyped? Oh.

D (172:24)

Man. I think there's a lot of excitement. I don't want to say overhype. There's a lot of excitement about these models that help you create a new hypothesis and that's really important. But drug discovery is 9,999 steps after that, many of which are incredibly hard and full of toil. And there's a lot of opportunity, especially when you get to things that are regulated or in animals or closer to manufacturing to make huge differences in the lives of scientists everywhere to get medicines to patients faster. How.

B (172:54)

Do you think about speed of token generation? We were talking to the, the CEO of Cerebras and he was very optimistic about applied AI speeding up in bio specifically because more and more of the questions that scientists are asking look like deep research reports. Whereas consumers might just ask, oh you know, what's the capital of I don't know, Illinois. And it's a quick LLM, it just fills the next word in and it takes one token. But a lot of scientists might say for every question that I'm asking throughout the day, every 15 minutes I'm effectively firing off a deep research report that might take a half an hour. And so speeding that up makes sense. How are you feeling about the different options on the silicon side? What partnerships have you done? How are you thinking about accelerating the actual workflows? Yeah.

D (173:47)

We'Ve got partnerships with both Nvidia and Anthropic, which I can talk about in just a second. But I think life science is actually not even at the point where token speed is the rate limiter. Obviously In San Francisco AI is everywhere. Your billboards are selling you GPUs and whatever. But if you go to Boston, other life science hub or I've spent time in Europe in the last couple of months, I was just in Asia in December visiting biotech and pharma companies. AI adoption is not going to just happen spontaneously in all these organizations. Most of these scientific organizations actually are just getting like co pilots and whatnot turned on. There's a lot of legal safety, regulatory security concerns that they have. And scientists workflows are so, so complicated. They're already jumping between a bunch of different tools with really complex data that AI is not necessarily purpose built for. And so there's a lot of like last mile work to do before token speed even becomes a problem. And that's, that's what we've been trying to focus on at benchling is the decline.

B (174:44)

Of Boston as a biotech hub overstated. We read a piece by Will Menidis declaring Boston dead almost. He was very dramatic about it. How are things going in Boston? Is it still a competitive place? There's been a number of different reports around hiring maybe you know, weakening and softening. But what are you seeing in Boston? I.

D (175:08)

Think there's still a lot of like really good scientific talent in Boston and they can come out to San Francisco to raise money if they need. They're just, they're just a plane flight away. I think maybe zooming out. What you're probably hearing is like biotech went through a, like it's a pretty good vibe right now at jpm. But biotech went through a really tough couple years. Like they, the biopharma industry went through like the dot com bust equivalent for a few years. You.

B (175:31)

Know what was the driver of that? Because it feels like during COVID there was a lot of biotech energy. And then through the GLP1 boom, we're seeing more. But is this CRISPR overhang, like what is the foundational technology ofthe.com? if the Internet was the thing that ultimately caused the bubble of dot com? There.

D (175:53)

Were a lot of great new scientific technologies, but it takes a lot of time to make a drug. It takes seven, 10 years. The industry, how many drugs do you guys think it approves a year? Can.

B (176:05)

You guess? Hundreds.

A (176:07)

I don't know, under 20? What.

D (176:09)

Is it? For the last 10 years we've gotten about 50 new medicines approved per year. Just 50? And how much do you think the industry spends on R and D? Is.

B (176:19)

It like $10 billion?

D (176:22)

The industry spends almost $200 billion a year on R D. And you get, and you get 50, you get 50 new drugs a year and it takes 10 years to figure out if you're right. Okay, so like, and by the way though, like drugs, drugs are amazing. Like we want more drugs and drugs get cheaper over time, they become generic. Hundreds of millions of people take statins and all kinds of other drugs that they don't even think about how cheap they are and how impactful they are. So we get to get to add 50 to our stockpile every single year of new life changing medicines. We should want more of them, we should want them faster, we want them to be better. And I think because it takes so long though, and it's such a difficult artisanal process, like I think everyone got excited with MRNA and Covid and I think a lot of money went in and I think science takes time to become durable and turned into businesses and have medicines get commercialized. And I think some people a couple years after Covid also got impatient and there's other things to invest in and so the money kind of went back out. And so it was a really difficult couple years for the industry. And you know, interest rates, geopolitical things. If there's any industry that doesn't like uncertainty, it's biotech. You know, you're underwriting something that's going to take 10 years to see the results of. Yeah.

B (177:33)

How should people think about JP Morgan Healthcare? Like the conference, is it an opportunity to raise money? Is it an opportunity for companies that are thinking about going public? I know the financial profile of a lot of drug companies is very different than startups at the time. At the same time, there's a lot of companies that are now taking a More traditional Silicon Valley path in growing their business and raising money. What's the purpose? Why do people go to J.P. morgan Health Care? What.

C (178:00)

Do they get out of it? It's.

D (178:02)

Actually really funny. A lot of people are here for jpm but they don't actually go to jpm. It's like every, every conference kind of has their ratio of at the conference versus ecosystem around it. JPM might be the most lopsided. We're like 90% of people here are not going to the actual conference. It is a banker conference for CEOs and CFOs to raise money. But it's like this barometer for the industry and most people are actually here for all of the ecosystem around it, all the events. Like we're having an event in our HQ tonight that's like a AI and bio panel with, you know, Eli Lilly and Isomorphic Labs and Profluent and Anthropic. But you know, people are here to, to get customers to fundraise, to see their friends and to their pharma companies that have alumni reunion parties here year. And so it's like, it's just the gathering to kick the year off. And the mood is good by the way. Like the XBI has been trading well. There's been a bunch of M and A in biotech which has sent a bunch of money back to investors. I think some of the tariff and MFN stuff has settled a little bit for now. Eli Lilly, as you said, becoming the first trillion dollar pharma company, I think that's raised everyone's ambitions a bunch. And.

A (179:05)

Then, you know, there's benchling next. Yeah.

B (179:10)

Benchling next. It's easier now since, you know, it's already been done. The.

A (179:14)

Fast follower. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So.

B (179:15)

Exactly, exactly when, when you hit the one T. But I'm so glad to hear things are going well. Thank you so much for stopping by. Yeah.

D (179:23)

Great.

A (179:23)

To meet you on the show. We've been wanting to make this happen for a long time. This.

D (179:26)

Is great. Thanks. Thanks for having me. You guys need more biotech on the show, please. You're.

A (179:31)

New, you're our new correspondent. You'll be our correspondent or experts. So tell us the companies that we should have on. Yeah, we'd love that and enjoyed this. All.

D (179:40)

Right, I'm here for a vibe check anytime you need it. Amazing.

B (179:43)

Great.

A (179:43)

To meet you soon. Cheers.

B (179:44)

Goodbye. Well, we have a very special guest in the TVP and Ultradome live in person, we have Scott Nolan from General Matters.

A (180:01)

How.

B (180:02)

Have you been? How was the holiday? Party. How was your New Year's? Is 2026 off to a good start? It's.

G (180:08)

Been great. Yeah.

A (180:09)

Thank.

G (180:09)

You guys for having me on. Of.

B (180:10)

Course. Just.

A (180:11)

Look, look at the headlines, you know. Yeah.

B (180:14)

It's long overdue. I'm so glad we get to catch up. Take us back. We've talked many times, but take us back to the process of finding this category, finding this opportunity. I think most people will know that you're at Founders Fund in an investing role for over a decade, I believe. But talk to me about the process deciding to. You didn't hear it, but he just played the overnight success.

A (180:42)

Sound.

B (180:42)

Cute. But talk to me about the process of actually finding an opportunity, picking this one and then making the move. Yeah.

G (180:50)

And for people who aren't familiar with General Matter, where the American nuclear fuel company enriching fuel here in the US using US tech. So the whole background was, you know, finding it overnight took about a decade and there was certainly no intention of starting anything really. This was in response to a huge market need. So like you said, you know, at FoundersOne for a decade meeting a wide range of advanced reactor companies. Yeah. All of them had the same message which was we have no, we have no fuel. We have no source of Hailu and we've got to depend on Russia and China for that fuel that we need. And so I said, why don't the US fuel companies make that fuel? And they said there aren't really any, you.

B (181:31)

Say, depending on Russia and China. Is it true that the Hailu, the nuclear fuel that comes from Russia is they actually take it out of a missile that's nuclear. Does that happen? Or they take it out of a nuclear submarine. Where are they getting it in Russia? Why do they have it? Why don't we? Why.

G (181:49)

Don'T we? Yeah.

D (181:49)

Not.

G (181:50)

Not a wives tale but you know, they have their own enrichment capability in Russia. Do they do, Yep. They're actually the world leader in enrichment. More than half of world market cap. You know, capacity is in Russia. You've got Europe number two and China quickly growing as number three. US used to be number one. Back in the 80s we were about 85% of global enrichment. Today less than 0.1%. So we went from first place to basically last place. And.

A (182:13)

What, what were the catalysts for that? It.

G (182:15)

Was exactly what you're saying of the down blending back from pre Cold War. Obviously there was, you know, post the fall of the Berlin Wall there was mutual disarmament goals and there was trade and so it was called the Megatons to megawatts program where the US worked with Russia to downblend weapons into fuel that could be run in reactors. That was the start of it. And then with the fall of the Berlin Wall, I think the US basically said, hey, free trade, let's go get our fuel from other countries who do this very affordably and consistently. And maybe we don't need to have this outdated capability of gaseous diffusion which was running at a few sites in the us so over time we basically outsourced it. Other countries were better than us at it and we allowed that skill to atrophy. Yeah.

B (182:59)

When you look at the S curve of nuclear power growth, we went through this exponential period and then it basically flatlined for, I don't know, 40, 50 years. How much of that is due to Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, like fear mongering? How much of it is due to just the oil and gas companies being elite and just compounding and compounding. And they're just so big that they can hire all the best talent, do all the best lobbying. What are the different factors that go into the plateau that we've seen in nuclear power generation? Yeah.

D (183:31)

On.

G (183:31)

Limiting nuclear power, I think everyone lists those things. People will also mention the regulator. I think it's none of those things. Interesting. Yeah.

B (183:39)

So.

G (183:40)

If you actually look at the data, nuclear has been the safest, cleanest form of baseload power, but it hasn't been the cheapest. And so that S curve followed a period. And maxing out the S curve really was at a time where costs were just rising dramatically on nuclear builds. They were run like huge construction projects. So most of nuclear all the way through the 90s was classic light water reactors. Billion, $10 billion projects over schedule run just like highway projects, like other things that just were not done efficiently. The move you now see towards advanced reactors is all about changing that. So all the advanced reactors basically have two goals. One is often increase safety, the other is decreased cost. Glad.

A (184:27)

They care about safety, often passive safety. So.

G (184:31)

Not relying on active measures. But.

A (184:33)

Essentially the goal here is like you have a private company who has somebody, they have potential customers that will pay for power or even help them fund the capex. And they're heavily incentivized to stay on schedule and deliver it at a cost or deliver effectively the system at a cost. Whereas like a government funded project has maybe less of an incentive to actually hit cost. Stay within budget. Yeah.

G (185:04)

I think the key dimension is that they want to be factory built. And so if you're factory Built. Okay, we can get these coming off an assembly line. We can have the parts made with extreme consistency and bring costs in over time and then those pieces can be deployed out to a site and installed and turned online. And that's what the acronym SMR is, Small Modular Reactor, where the small part is small enough to be built in a factory. So that's the whole point. Now.

A (185:28)

If you go that small is that plane size at the think of like.

G (185:34)

Extremely wide load size. So highway transportable, so domestic bus size is.

B (185:39)

Shipping container sized 1 megawatt. So replacement for a diesel generator usually. Exactly. And now people are talking about, well, what if we get 1,000 of those together we get a gigawatt, maybe we can power an AI data center. Is the AI boom and the AI narrative changing anything for you? Is there more maybe about your business, but also just about regulatory openness, excitement about the category, just getting real about a transition to a different fuel source? Yeah.

G (186:07)

I think you've seen a few tailwinds. Yeah. In the nuclear space has certainly been a huge tailwind. And the hyperscalers have always wanted baseload power and they want it to be clean. That really points you towards nuclear where the missing piece has been cost. And so they're turning towards smarts as a way of reducing the cost. Sure. Whether it's one megawatt, a thousand of them together to make a gigawatt, or maybe it's 20 megawatts. People are coming up with different formats to solve the need in AI. And.

B (186:33)

There'S even companies that are bringing old nuclear facilities back online, just building, okay, I'm going to go get a Westinghouse. But that was not an option a while ago. And so I mean just this week didn't matter. Partner with OKLO to bring some nuclear power online. The timelines are depressing in AI world. I think about AGI next year and then you see that they are doing a deal that won't come online until 2032. But at the same time, better than not. How are you thinking about timelines? Imagine that since this is a big step moving into this role, you're thinking in decades or longer, how do you think about when to hit certain milestones, how to grow the business, what you can do in a 12 to 18 month cycle. Right.

G (187:17)

So for us we're online by end of decade. That is our goal. That's our line in the sand. Late last year in August we announced a lease with the DOE and Kentucky to re industrialize a site that used to host enrichment in Paducukan Kentucky. That's right. That's right. So we are now breaking ground and preparing that site to build on that'll be online by end of decades. That's roughly our timeline. That timeline is dictated by construction and by licensing. Basically those two things, the scale of construction and the scale of actually bringing it online on day one, will be increased through this award that we received, received last week. So that's the main way it impacts us is it actually brings commercial scale, domestic scale, satisfying all us needs forward a.

B (188:02)

Few years earlier. Are.

A (188:04)

You a dependency or are you going to be a dependency for some of these other projects that are saying like, okay, we're going to build all this infrastructure, but ultimately we're going to need fuel, otherwise the whole thing doesn't actually matter. That's.

G (188:17)

Right, yeah. So after the decade of meeting different reactor companies, I realized none of them had a good source of fuel. And if you take a step back, fuel is upstream of everything. So if energy is upstream of all economic activity, fuel is upstream of energy. And if you can't make your own fuel, you can't do all the other things that you want to do. So within nuclear, there's this missing step of enrichment in the US and so to answer your question, yes, we think that enrichment is the key bottleneck for nuclear. Nuclear energy. Yeah.

A (188:47)

How on earth have you approached hiring like, who's the oldest person on your team? Oldest.

G (188:54)

Let'S see. Oldest person. I'm not sure. I mean, north of 50. Okay. Yeah.

A (188:58)

I was. Maybe there's some 90 year old who's like.

B (189:00)

I still, I was at Chernobyl. Well.

G (189:04)

In the industry you will see this, what's effectively a bathtub curve, which is a lot of young people that are very. Getting started nuclear and a lot of people that were in at the very beginning when it was exciting and new and growing very rapidly. And in the middle you have enthusiasts, people who really believed in it even when no one else did. But the number of people seems to follow that curve. And so we've had consultants on our team who are in their 80s. Yeah.

A (189:27)

Yeah, yeah, that's what I was. That's what I figured. Right. Which is like, they're maybe not like, sign me up for a new W2, but I'll be around the table and help you guys think through how to actually do this. On.

B (189:36)

The young side, how, where are you hiring from and how much retraining can you do? Can you take a great engineer and bring them up to speed on all the particulars of nuclear or do you want to go with someone who knows more about nuclear broadly and teach them something specific about refinement? How do you think about training and building the next generation up? Yeah.

G (190:00)

So one misconception of team composition is probably that it's all nuclear engineers. The reality of an enrichment facility or refining operation is that there's actually no nuclear reactions. Okay.

B (190:10)

Yeah.

G (190:10)

So there's actually no chemical reactions. Interesting.

B (190:13)

All.

G (190:14)

There is is taking a material and separating it. And so it's a sorting operation, it's a refinement operation. So you do need some nuclear engineers, but it's not the bulk of the team. What we really need is, you know, the team today is comprised of aerospace engineers like applied physics, electrical software, chemicals engineers, mechanical, all these classic engineering disciplines, and then a few nuclear engineers. So we're really just looking for the best from every discipline. And.

B (190:38)

Then the facility in Paducah. Can you give me an idea of what scale we're talking about? We've seen Crusoe building these gigawatt campuses. They're massive. Are we at that scale or are we smaller? Is this a mega project? Can you hop in a golf cart and drive around, or can you hop on the bulldozer and push the dirt around? Or is it like, you know, those huge. Those huge, you know, dump trucks that you see going into mines? Not that. Okay.

G (191:06)

Not that big. So all above ground. So to set the stage, Paducah, Kentucky, over 3,000 acres used to host enrichment. The number one enrichment site in the U.S. it's what made the U.S. the world leader in enrichment back in the 80s 90s. That site was a DOE site that was then fully shut down in 2013. So the town still remembers when there was enrichment there. They're very supportive of it. The reason we picked Paducah was actually the local community being extremely supportive of enrichment and nuclear operations there. Through conversations with the DOE, we found 100 acres at the south end of the site. So to answer your size question, it's really 100 acres inside the doe fence where they are currently taking down the old gaseous diffusion plant and planning to re industrialize that. So our partnership with DOE was around re industrializing that site and potentially using some of the depleted uranium that's already there to help produce new fuel. So we're talking, you know, ballpark, a million square feet of building on 100 acres. Got.

B (192:05)

It. You talk a big game about being upstream of the nuclear energy generation, but what's upstream of you? Does America have uranium in the ground? Do we have deposits do we need to mine this? Are we mining it? Yeah.

C (192:20)

I.

G (192:20)

Heard you guys have a whiteboard somewhere. We.

B (192:22)

Do. Get the whiteboard out. Let's get the whiteboard out. I would love to have wiped this out for you. Whiteboard out for us. This is a live demo, which is always risky, but you are an expert in this. Let's see how this goes. We have them on the light on the mic. So explain to us what is this? The nuclear fuel reaction process. Refinery.

G (192:42)

Process. This is. Yeah, this is just the five steps to make nuclear fuel. Okay, great. So it's pretty simple. Step one is milling and mining. You get it out of the ground. That's U308, often called yellow cake. Okay. You then convert it into a gas. Once it's converted into a gas, you can enrich once it's enriched. And.

B (193:04)

Is that a centrifuge process? Basically.

G (193:06)

There'S a. There's a bunch of. Of processes. We are not yet sharing our process. Maybe I'll come on later this year and share that one. But there are a few different processes. Everything from centrifuge, gaseous diffusion, laser, aerodynamic, you know, aqueous. Interesting.

F (193:21)

Once.

G (193:21)

You enrich, you then can deconvert back into a solid. And once you have a solid, you make fuel pellets. That's fuel fabrication. Yes. So in the US today, we already have US mining. We do in a few different states. And.

B (193:34)

Do we have the deposits here too? Is America rich in this natural resource? Yeah.

G (193:38)

We have plenty of uranium in the US Our deposits are not as rich as some other countries, but they're still economical to mine. And so you see new mines coming online in Texas, in Wyoming. But.

B (193:50)

If someone throws at you, do we have enough fuel to power 10 gigawatts of nuclear power dirt during the next wave of the AI boom? You're not blinking at that. This.

G (194:02)

Is not the issue. So plenty of US mines, US Conversion is actually right across the river from our site in Kentucky. So there is a US Conversion facility run by Honeywell. Oh.

B (194:12)

Interesting. And that's going well as well. That's.

G (194:15)

Working. That was mothballed last decade. Bringing it back online so that production's coming back. Enrichment is the one step where there's no capacity, less than 0.1% of global capacity. So effectively out of the game here. There is, you know, R and D scale in different locations, but nothing that's commercially relevant for either our existing reactors on the grid or the advanced reactors coming soon. Is.

A (194:36)

That the hardest step in the process? I.

G (194:39)

Think it's the step with the most technology leverage. Yeah.

B (194:41)

That's.

G (194:42)

Part of the reason we thought we can make a big difference here. Yes.

A (194:45)

You said you're not sharing your process there. I can think of a lot of reasons for that. Is Jordy, quickly grab the mic. Is there any risk with this business of like fast follow risk? People see the business has traction. Yeah.

B (194:58)

I mean it seems so easy. Every YC founder will just be, I'm doing that. No.

A (195:02)

I think that to me it looks like the business with the least fast follow risk. Because you'd have to be insane to go after this opportunity, especially because it feels like pretty quickly you'll have a talent vortex and a lot of the people that are the enthusiasts, the people on that sort of bath coat, bathtub curve you talked about, why would you want to work at the sort of second or third horse in the race or how do you think about that? As a former FF guy, I imagine you want to build a business with the lowest possible fast follow risk. Yeah.

G (195:37)

The main goal here is just bring this capability back. Your intuition's right though. So it's not an easy thing to start. So to build a facility like this is over a billion dollars, multiple billions at full scale. Obviously it's a sensitive technology, so a lot of the people on the team, almost all of them have to have security clearance who are working on tech. And so yeah, there's a lot of different hurdles to get started. But I think at the end of the day, we want there to be multiple US players in the space. We think this is a lot like there's so many parallels to space launch. Where I started my career at SpaceX, SpaceX did become the place that a lot of aerospace engineers wanted to work. They moved fast, they did innovative things, they were making a real difference in the industry. But ultimately, even SpaceX wanted there to be many players because the ultimate goal wasn't to build a business. The ultimate goal was to make human space flight happen. And for us, it's really about making nuclear energy not just the safest, not just the cleanest, but the cheapest form of baseload. Yeah.

H (196:36)

And.

B (196:36)

The SpaceX thing is so interesting because, you know, obviously the Blue Origin teams worked very hard. But you have to wonder, would Blue Origin be as dominant as is without SpaceX? Probably there's like some knock on or competitive effect. Just like he's going, I gotta go. And now America has the two best spatial launch companies. It seems like. It.

A (196:55)

Seems like China's somebody to build a viable competitor, you might need to spend a decade at the company and actually.

G (197:04)

Learn the process. And with Blue Origin, people forget. Blue origin started before SpaceX. Oh.

B (197:08)

That'S right. So.

G (197:09)

I think the big difference was that Blue Origin had someone that everyone on the team knew would just fund it continuously until it succeeded. SpaceX was do or die, basically. And so their whole mindset was always, we're bringing the cost down, we're commercial, we have to stand on our own feet. That's our mindset as well. Yeah.

B (197:27)

Every penny matters. Interesting. Talk to me about the fuel. You said fuel pellets. We've had Doug from Radiant on the show before. He talks about Triso fuel. What is Triso fuel? Are you able to make it? Are you solving his problem? Or are you just one piece of the puzzle for him when he needs fuel? We.

G (197:47)

Are this middle step of enrichment. So downstream of us, people take. Take the gas that's converted one step ahead of us, turn it back into a solid, and then turn it into fuel pellets. Triso is one type of fuel pellet. So Triso is typically used for Halo, the more enriched fuel. Then the basic idea is that it's additional containment for the fuel. So not only is it containment, but it also has a negative reaction coefficient with temperature. So as things get hotter, it slows down the reactions and basically self regulates. Got it. And so a lot of people like Triso safer. Safer, adds a little bit of cost, reduces packing density inside the core. So there's some drawbacks, but overall net positive. But.

B (198:28)

If Triso becomes a massive industry, you'll be part of the supply chain. That's.

G (198:33)

Right. That makes sense. Okay, got it. There's really two form factors people are thinking about a lot. One is Haylou inside of Triso pellets. Second is traditional leukemia cylinders, ingots. Yeah.

B (198:44)

Yeah, that makes sense. What are you seeing in terms of timelines to bring new reactors online? Obviously, we talked to Doug about going to the dome and in testing a new reactor design, there's a constant line I hear repeated about the regulators haven't approved new designs. It feels like there's a lot of energy to change that. When do you expect sort of a blip in the graph, an uptick in the growth of nuclear power generation in America? Yeah.

G (199:14)

We really expect to see that growth curve really getting steep at the end of the decade. So you've probably talked to a few reactor companies beyond Doug. A lot of people are aiming for this.

B (199:24)

Year for first tests. First.

G (199:26)

Criticality, first tests. You then would go through a licensing process that now under NRC executive orders, is meant to only take 18 months. And so, you know, that puts you at, let's say, 20, 28 for really having the ability to go build and deploy a lot of reactors. I think we then see that really curve up. Early 2000, 30s. Got.

B (199:47)

It. Yeah. And.

F (199:49)

And.

B (199:50)

I imagine that even if you get a radiant or any of these other companies to produce a few units, it takes a while until it actually puts a dent in the curve. Right?

G (199:57)

That's.

B (199:58)

Right. Talk to me about the relationship with the White House. I love seeing you in the Oval Office. It's amazing. It's such a. Such a tangible example of the work that you're doing. But how do the other energy players think about nuclear today? You could imagine a world where big oil is saying, yeah, it sounds good, but let's just not do that. Let's keep doing what we're doing because it's our core business. Or we could see what we're doing in AI, where Google jumped in on the AI boom immediately. And so do you think the oil and gas companies will become partners they created? Maybe it's a bad analogy, but. But you get what I'm saying. Like, you could see a world where oil and gas companies become very synergistic. They're partnering with you, they are excited about the new technology, or maybe it's more just competitive till the end. How do you see that playing out? I.

G (200:47)

Don'T worry about the competition piece, really. I think, yeah, I think one, one microcosm of this is really looking at the Department of Energy, and it's, you know, Secretary Wright comes from the oil and gas industry, yet he's been one of the biggest advocates for nuclear energy. And so a lot of people will ask the same question around. Is the oil and gas industry an enemy of nuclear? Has it been an issue for nuclear? I'd say not at all. The oil and gas industry has been trying to increase U.S. energy production by whatever means are available, and that's, that's the lever that they have. The nuclear industry has not done the same thing for, I think, a variety of reasons. But people blame outside parties. I think, you know, in the principle of just taking ownership for things, I think it's the, the industry needs to take ownership for why it has not grown. And I think the advanced reactor vendors are trying to solve that by bringing down the cost while increasing safety and increasing deployability. Yeah.

A (201:40)

Jordy, where. How are, how are you setting up the company geographically? I'm assuming you're spending a good Amount of time in Kentucky. But where's the team? Mostly.

B (201:50)

Part of San Francisco. Yeah.

G (201:52)

Yeah, right. Downtown Kentucky is where we're really growing the team aggressively. But engineering is also in la. So two pieces, engineering, headquarters, gna, really primarily California. And then the facility itself, construction, production, primarily Kentucky.

B (202:12)

Talk to me about solar. You worked at SpaceX. Elon's a bit of a solar maxi. At least it seems like he's a solar maxi. It's always hard to read the tea leaves from his post, but solar seems like a similar opportunity. It's a big scale, it's unlimited. It's the fusion reactor in the sky with unlimited energy. And a lot of of folks have painted sci fi solar punk futures. You obviously looked at those companies too. How do the two technologies play together? Why did you think nuclear was the real bottleneck? What are the benefits of nuclear relative to solar? When do you pick one over the other? What does the blend look like over the next couple decades? Yep.

G (202:51)

Yeah. So the solar AI data center in orbit concept is a new thing. You know, it's probably the last few weeks that it's really become something people are talking about. If we rewind a couple of years ago and we're talking, okay, data centers on Earth and do you want to do solar or do you want to do nuclear? Solar obviously takes a lot more area on the ground, but there's, there is plenty of area for that. In general, the missing piece was really storage. Yeah. So solar is inherently cyclical. You need to smooth it out. To smooth it out, you need very cheap grid scale, or at least gigawatt scale. Storage.

B (203:23)

Batteries. Batteries.

G (203:24)

Batteries are other forms. We haven't had that yet. At a cost point that I think can compete with nuclear. Sure, that could change and that would be great. But for now, in the foreseeable future on Earth, it's nuclear. And.

B (203:36)

That'S what you mean by baseload nuclear power plant. Once you fire it up, you're getting whatever it says. If it says 1 megawatt, you get 1 megawatt 24 hours a day. Doesn't matter if it's sunshine, rain, snow. That's.

G (203:48)

Right. Versus turning off at nighttime and having to go off the batteries that were charged up during the day. Yeah. Now when we talk about English in orbit, it's a whole different ball game because.

B (203:55)

You can be in sun synchronous orbit, you get sunlight like 99% of the time. Correct?

G (203:59)

That's.

B (203:59)

Right. Got.

G (204:00)

It. So if you have very cheap launch capacity, if your GPUs don't weigh very much, which they don't, and they're high value. You could potentially put all of that in orbit, have your solar panel completely in sun sync. Sure. Solve the battery issue. The one remaining piece is you've got a lot of incident solar energy. You're going to run those GPUs. How do you cool them? And I think that's. That's the piece that people are going to be working on for the next few years. Yeah.

B (204:23)

That'S the material science question. So you're saying put the solar panels in orbit, keep them off the Earth. Earth is your domain. We're going to do nuclear down here. That works. Of course, we'll do both. Until.

A (204:33)

Of course, you know, the 2040 pitch. For general matter, we're putting a reactor on the moon. On.

B (204:39)

The moon. Moon reactors. Nuclear does have applications in space, though, Right, right. Didn't.

H (204:45)

The. What.

B (204:46)

Was it? The Mars Land Earth. The Mars helicopter that we put out there had some sort of nuclear fuel in it. How do you get energy without putting a full nuclear reactor there? Do you understand how that works? Yeah.

G (204:55)

Typically you'll have a fuel source that has a shorter half life and can emit a lot of energy more quickly. Uranium has a very, very long half life. Some of these other ones have much shorter. So you can harness heat off of that and charge batteries continuously. So.

B (205:09)

It'S basically just a hot, hot rock. That's right. It's not actually a full reactor with rods going in and out. It's not Chernobyl or anything. Yeah.

D (205:15)

It's.

B (205:15)

Just hot rock. That.

G (205:17)

Is. Yeah, that's right. If you're talking about lunar reactors, that would be a different story. Sure.

D (205:21)

If.

G (205:21)

You'Re talking about, you know, interstellar things from science fiction. Sure.

F (205:24)

More.

G (205:25)

Like a reactor. Yeah. Is what everyone's always talked about. But the things that have been deployed so far are usually radioisotopes. Yeah.

B (205:31)

That makes sense. What are the biggest bottlenecks leading into the end of the decade? 2030.

A (205:38)

That.

B (205:38)

Seems like an important moment for the company. Obviously, job's not finished then, but talent, money, approvals, regulatory. Anything else? What.

G (205:48)

Else is going on? Yeah, the way we think about it is the primary bottleneck to get online by end of decade and to be at huge scale with the world's lowest cost of enrichment is all about the team. So it's all about recruiting. It's all about engineering. Engineering. It's not just engineering of what goes into the building, it's the construction of the building. So out in Kentucky, we're building Our own EPC and general contractor in house to run that. Just like was done at Tesla Gigafactories in la. We're doing the engineering on all the components that go inside to cost and scale, optimize those. How.

B (206:20)

Do you balance the desire to run quickly with not swinging at every pitch? When you get a new applicant, it feels like hiring is maybe similar to investing. You don't want to just say, oh, I have to make one investment every quarter because my fund is X size. You also might not want to say, I need to hire one engineer every month. How do you stay sane in an environment where you have to hire people? Yeah, right. It's.

G (206:47)

Lumpy. Yeah. You know what your open roles are. You know what you want to have on the team. If we look at that, we're hiring over 100 people this year across site. Oh.

B (206:54)

We gotta hit the golf for that.

A (206:57)

Boom. How's it feel in person? It's like you feel it, really feel it in your bones. It's.

B (207:04)

Louder in person. I.

G (207:05)

Can feel it. Yeah.

B (207:06)

That'S great. But.

G (207:08)

Like you said, you have to, you know, the key thing for scaling a company is keeping the bar high. I think naval has said this a bunch of times. The team you build is the company you build. And so we're trying to find people that are just extremely, extremely passionate, great engineers, great operators who are aligned and just want to work on this problem and solve it. Yeah.

B (207:25)

What's the biggest lesson from working with Peter on the board, on the team, like with your career that you're taking through this business? I.

G (207:35)

Think for this business, it was really the lesson of a lot of people want to go after a trillion dollar market and own a tiny percent of it. We're trying to solve first the hailu shortage in the US that's going to prevent all reactors from coming online if they can't have the fuel that they need. That's arguably a small market today. But you want to start. It's okay to start in a small market and then grow into a bigger one. And so our markets are really hailu, which you could say is maybe $100 million market today, something like that. And then LEU enrichment, which in the US alone is a couple billion dollar market, and then you go from there. So I think probably the best lesson is the zero to one lesson of start small, solve a real problem for some known customer and go from there. Yeah.

B (208:17)

That'S great. That's great. Jordan, anything else? Very.

A (208:19)

Cool. Thank.

B (208:20)

You so much for coming on the show. Whiteboard.

A (208:23)

Moment we appreciate a whiteboard. We.

B (208:24)

Love a whiteboard moment. Well, we will leave you there. Thank you so much for tuning in. We will see you tomorrow at 11am Pacific. Leave us five stars on Apple, podcast and Spotify and sign up for a newsletter@tvpn.com. see you tomorrow. Cheers. Goodbye.