#4595 Jeff Hiller!!

Summary

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TBTL Episode #4595: Jeff Hiller!!

Date: November 11, 2025
Host: Luke Burbank (filling in solo for Andrew Walsh)
Special Guest: Jeff Hiller – Emmy-winning actor, star of HBO’s Somebody Somewhere and author of Actress of a Certain Age

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Episode Overview

This episode features a lively and candid conversation between TBTL host Luke Burbank and actor/author Jeff Hiller. With Andrew out of town, Luke sits down with Jeff in a Portland hotel restaurant to discuss Jeff’s career journey, his breakout role on Somebody Somewhere, his Emmy win, and his memoir. They also bond over their upbringings in Christian communities, reflect on aging, celebrity, pop culture touchstones, podcasting, and how to be mindful of evolving language. The discussion is full of joyful digressions, heartfelt moments, comedic asides, and relatable reflections.

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Highlights & Key Discussion Points

1. Setting the Scene: Podcasting in the Wild

(02:09–06:00)

• Luke describes the “gentle chaos” of arranging a podcast interview with an actual Emmy winner in a hotel restaurant with mismatched gear.
• A shout out to the accommodating staff at Portland’s Heathman Hotel.
• Memorable Quote:

  “This shows you how typical podcast recordings are in the world. You could walk up to a harried server at a restaurant and say, I need to do a podcast. They go, go back to the podcasting room for that.” — Luke (04:53)

2. Introducing Jeff Hiller & the Magic of ‘Somebody Somewhere’

(06:00–15:45)

• Luke gives background on Somebody Somewhere and Jeff’s role as Joel, framing the show as a celebration of adult friendship that isn’t about romance.
• Plays a joyfully quirky wedding fantasy clip from the show (with songs and jokes).
• Luke discusses the importance of finding “your person” in life, even if that isn’t a romantic partner.
• Quote:

  “She wanted to make a show that demonstrated a kind of important primary relationship in life with someone that is not necessarily romantic.” — Luke (08:54)

[CLIP: Joel’s Dream Wedding, Gloria Singalong (10:54–12:18)]

3. Jeff Hiller’s Breakthrough: Memoir & Emmy Win

(15:46–16:38, 32:57–33:41)

• Jeff’s memoir chronicles decades of struggle before his big break in his mid-40s.
• Luke highlights how Somebody Somewhere is “niche but beloved” and marvels at Jeff’s Emmy win.
• Memorable Emmy Speech Quote:

  “For the past 25 years, I’ve been like, world, I want to be an actor. And the world’s like, maybe computers... Thank you to HBO for putting a show about sweaty middle aged people on the same network as the sexy teens of Euphoria.” — Jeff Hiller (15:46)

4. Celebrity Visibility & Encountering Fans

(16:52–19:56)

• Luke asks Jeff about jogging in Portland and if the Emmy has made him more recognizable.
• Jeff says he’s largely anonymous and enjoys fan recognition when it happens, which is always positive and low-key.
• Both swap stories about awkwardness of being possibly recognized.
• Quote:

  “I like it when people recognize me. …It’s not like people are coming up and being like, ‘Say, you talking to me?’ ...They’re just like, I love the show. You seem nice. That kind of a thing.” — Jeff (17:49)

5. Comedy Life, Improv & Drinking Habits

(20:08–23:11)

• Jeff compares his drinking (modest) to his on-screen character’s (“Joel drinks a lot more than I do”).
• Both riff on performing at Kickstand Comedy and the intense but supportive Portland comedy scene.
• Fun tangent: pop culture Mariah Carey references (her Cribs episode and Christmas music) and musical impressions.
• Quote:

  “I did hard liquor last night and my watch was like, what have you done? Your stats are all off.” — Jeff (20:21)

6. Growing Up Christian: Faith, Tongues & Humor

(23:33–28:29)

• Both Luke and Jeff discuss being raised in intense Christian communities: Luke’s evangelical commune, Jeff’s progressive Lutheran background.
• Hilarious riff on “speaking in tongues” and childhood impressions of it.
• Both are grateful for positive, social-justice-oriented Christians in their lives—not the Christian nationalism often portrayed.
• Quote:

  “I met so many people who are like just the coolest people who are like pro social justice, pro feeding the hungry… nothing like the mainstream view …which is really Christian nationalism or whatever.” — Jeff (27:52)

7. Turning 50, Late Blooming Careers & Persistence

(28:57–31:33)

• Both reflect on about-to-turn-50 feelings, the trauma of turning 40, and how success came later than expected.
• Jeff is candid about struggling in his career for over two decades and why continued acting nourished him even before mainstream success.
• Quote:

  “When I turned 40, I was like, oh well, it passed and it didn’t happen, so it’s never gonna happen…Now I realize that’s dumb.” — Jeff (29:54)
  “I’d do improv for free…and that fed me. I did stand up…that fed me. I mean, it didn’t pay, it didn’t feed me—it fed my artistic soul.” — Jeff (31:07)

8. Podcasting: The Hunger Games of Audio

(33:39–41:51)

• Jeff laments being burned by bad podcast experiences and why he’s selective about guest appearances.
• They revisit Jeff’s own podcast “Touche” (originally a bawdier title—see next point) about mid-career actors hustling after age 40.
• Extended explanation of the Broadway backstage slang “two-show [crotch],” its theater-world evolution, and playful worries about cultural ownership of slang.
• Discussion on the futility of “broad” podcasting; Luke preaches the gospel of ultra-niche “narrowcasting.”
• Quote:

  “Apparently there’s not any money in podcasting.” — Jeff (41:18)
  “I always call this narrow casting…I’m a big fan of. And also, honestly, I’m incapable of broadcasting. It’s always pretty narrow.” — Luke (41:59)

9. Language, Sensitivity & Evolving Culture

(36:36–40:13)

• They talk about evolving out of language that can be unintentionally hurtful (“that’s so crazy” → “that’s so wild”; “beat a dead horse” → “feed a fed horse”, etc.).
• Conversation about making space in language for other people’s comfort, not doubling down, and how sometimes the replacements are even more fun to say.
• Quote:

  “I always say, that’s so crazy. And someone said they don’t really like that. So I’ve been trying to say, that’s so wild.” — Jeff (37:48)

10. The Wide Appeal of ‘Somebody Somewhere’ ("Empathy People")

(42:54–48:54)

• Luke recounts how his evangelical parents—unexpected fans—“binged the entire thing in one and a half days.”
• Jeff notes most viewers who approach him are women, aged 40–60, often lesbian or pansexual, and their broader appeal to “empathy people.”
• Stories of fans making pilgrimages to Manhattan, Kansas, inspired by the show.
• Quote:

  “Maybe what it is, is like if whatever someone’s age or background is, if they have empathy maybe…like if there’s whatever that thing that runs through a person…that has sort of a… By the way, my parents are the only evangelicals I know that are not Trump people.” — Luke (48:10)

11. Coming Out, Secrets & Youth Group Confessions

(48:54–53:43)

• Jeff and Luke share stories of revealing important secrets to their faith communities: Jeff’s coming out letter, Luke confessing a hidden teenage pregnancy.
• Both stories show the mix of anxiety, humor, and ultimately acceptance that can follow vulnerability in religious settings.
• Quote:

  “It’s a little different to have an inkling of that [pregnancy]…were you still with the mom?” — Jeff (51:23)

12. Sex, Science, Weddings & the March of Time

(53:09–54:56)

• Conversation veers into the patterns of weddings (waves of weddings by decade, Christian remarrying), childbearing age, and the biological imperatives and social rituals that come with adulthood.
• Jeff mentions his own simple courthouse wedding.
• Quote:

  “In my 40s, I had a wave of the second weddings of the Christians.” — Jeff (53:15)

13. Thanks & Closing

(55:16–55:37)

• Luke thanks Jeff for the conversation, plugs Somebody Somewhere and Actress of a Certain Age, and ends with a callback to their “feed two birds with one scone” language games.

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Notable Quotes

• On persistence in acting:

  “You weren’t gonna quit acting. It’s too fundamental to who you are.” — Luke (30:14)

• On theater lingo and appropriating slang:

  “Maybe just don’t do it. …You can tell from the tone. If it’s meant joyfully, maybe just don’t do it.” — Jeff (36:11)

• On ‘Somebody Somewhere’ fandom:

  “Most people I meet who are young say, like, ‘my mom loves your show.’” — Jeff (47:56)

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Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• [04:53] – Luke jokes about how podcasting is now so commonplace that every restaurant expects you to need a “podcasting room.”
• [10:54–12:18] – Hilariously earnest singalong in the Somebody Somewhere clip—Jeff/Joel describing his wedding set to “Gloria.”
• [15:46] – Jeff’s Emmy speech: “World, I want to be an actor. World: Maybe computers.”
• [20:19] – “I did hard liquor last night and my watch was like, what have you done? Your stats are all off.” – Jeff
• [25:31] – Luke and Jeff do tongue-in-cheek “impressions” of speaking in tongues.
• [38:00] – Luke on intrusive animal empathy: “I don’t like to throw the word hero around, but…” (in regards to feeling bad for cold cows).
• [39:51] – Luke introduces the phrase “feed two birds with one scone” and laughs about how it lands in conversation.
• [45:48] – Luke describes fans making literal pilgrimages to Manhattan, Kansas, for Somebody Somewhere.

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Tone & Style

Consistently playful, self-deprecating, and kind. The banter is fast-moving yet full of warmth and openness, mixing deep candor about faith and identity with improv-like punchlines, signature TBTL digressions, and sincere admiration.

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For New Listeners

This episode provides an entertaining window into Jeff Hiller’s career, the culture of Somebody Somewhere, and the humble-grateful attitude of late-blooming creative success. The conversation is full of inside jokes, but the joy, vulnerability, and pop culture riffs are thoroughly accessible, no prior TBTL-listening required.

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Suggested Must-Listen Segments

• [15:46] – Jeff’s Emmy speech
• [23:33–28:29] – Faith backgrounds and speaking in tongues
• [39:51] – Animal-friendly idioms section
• [42:54–48:54] – The wide, unexpected reach of Somebody Somewhere

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Luke Burbank]

Through our ceremonies and our rituals, we have witnessed firsthand the awesome and vibratory power of color. We experience it as alive, and we believe that this saturated energy is the basis of all creation. This is not an occult. This is not one of those crazy systems of divination and astrology. That stuff's hooey and you gotta have a screw loose to go in for that sort of thing. Our beliefs are fairly commonplace and simple to understand. Humankind is simply materialized color operating on the 49th vibration. You would make that conclusion walking down the street or going to the store. Love it or hate it, it appears to be another irreversible step along mankind's.

[Jeff Hiller]

Journey toward God only knows what. Hey, I've learned a lesson here, but.

[Luke Burbank]

I hope you all have too, about the vitality of shared experience. We will all remember this moment for.

[Jeff Hiller]

The rest of our lives.

[Luke Burbank]

It was dramatic. It was visual.

[Jeff Hiller]

It was stupid.

[Luke Burbank]

It was stupid, but it was also theater.

[Jeff Hiller]

This is the real thing. This is the necessary art of our time. This needs respect.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay, are we done with business part? I wanted to start the clown portion of the meeting. Well, all right. Hello, good morning and welcome, everyone, to a Tuesday edition of tbtl, the show that just might be too beautiful to live. There ain't nothing like soup. My name is Luke Burbank. I am your host. You paint your bald spot. One bald spot. Coming to you from the Madrona Hill studio perched high above the mighty Columbia. We've got the fog. Sort of a mixed bag of fog and clouds, but no rain yet. So that's a positive here as we've arrived at episode 4595 in a collector series. Let the fun begin. And we've got something real special for you on this Tuesday.

[Jeff Hiller]

But we gotta freaking out.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, first of all, we don't have an Andrew Walsh. He is still out of town. He'll be back tomorrow. Looking forward to that. But in his stead is would say a pretty good fill in. And that would be Jeff Hiller, the star, one of the stars of somebody somewhere and also the author of the book Actress of a certain Age, the memoir actress of a certain Age. And really I think one of the sort of breakout comedic performers of the last few years. He will be our special guest on the show today. So that is kind of a cool thing. What happened was Jeff was in town to be on Livewire and. But that was at night and it was daytime. And I thought, we have a Jeff Hiller loose in Portland and we cannot not take advantage of that. So I slid into his DMs. I'd actually been in his DMs, so I guess I just stayed. Slid in the DMs and asked if he would consider being on TBTL. And he was nice enough to say yes. And so we were able to have a chat. And it was really fun. It was very, very casual. It was in the restaurant there at the Heathman Hotel, by the way, shout out to the folks at the Heathman Hotel. Okay. In Portland, Oregon. Not just. Not just the place where the 50 shades of grey people have all kinds of wild times together. I believe that. I don't know if it's the book or the movie or both of them. I think that. I think it's set there at the Heathman. I haven't actually. I'm not allowed to watch or read any of that yet until I'm 50, then I'm allowed. I just realized maybe that's what they mean. You have to be 50 before you can read that book or watch the movie. But anyway, that's all at the Heathman Hotel. But I don't. I don't want to talk about that. I want to talk about how nice they were to me at the Heathman Hotel. For this recording. I am showed up there with my. With like, a SG Goodman tote bag. SG Goodman, by the way, is a fine, fine musician out of, I believe, Kentucky. But I had an SG Goodman tote bag with, like, a couple of microphones and all my little gear in it. And let's just be honest, I didn't look like the height of professionality. Professionalism, I don't think professionality is a word. And I went up to the front desk at the Heathman and I said, hi, I'm a radio host and I'm doing an interview with someone here at your hotel. And could I use a conference room? Because I thought it might be a little forward to ask Jeff Hiller, who I'd never met in real life before, if we could have a casual recorded conversation, but if it could be in his hotel room. That seemed like a lot. So I was trying to find some. A safe space where we could have this convo. And they were very nice at the front desk, but they, after checking around, they basically said, all of the conference rooms are booked right now. There's people everywhere, but maybe the restaurant can help you. I was thinking that doesn't sound like a very hospitable place to have a podcast recording. But I went over there to the restaurant of the Heathman Hotel and I asked. I'll also mention this. The guy was a server who I first approached, and he's running around, hustling, he's got tables, he's got customers to take care of, and he's sprinting around, running around. And I said, hey, I need to do a radio interview here. And that was all I had said, I need to do a radio interview here. And he said, oh, yeah, you know, actually a perfect place for that would be way in the back. We've got this little kind of back area that we're not seating anyone. It's kind of cozy. I said, oh, that'd be incredible. He said, yeah, just go ahead and take that over. This also tells you, I guess, how common this kind of stuff is, whether it's radio. He probably knew I meant podcasts. Let's be honest. We are men of honor. Lies do not become us. This shows you how typical podcast recordings are in the world. You could walk up to a harried server at a restaurant and say, I need to do a podcast. They go, go back to the podcasting room for that. So I go back there, I'm nervously setting up my stuff because Emmy winner Jeff Hiller is on his way down to meet me. And I already realized this is not gonna look super professional. It's like my laptop, it's a couple of microphones, dumb microphones, don't even match. Like, I have one kind of microphone, he's got another kind of microphone. And then I realized the muzak was playing kind of loudly. And so I went back to this kind hearted, incredible server at the Heathman Hotel who was already letting me set up shop in the restaurant. And I said, is there any chance you could turn the muzak down? Just in the room that we're in, just in the area that I'm going to be in. He said, I think I could do that. Let me see. And then I'm back there and I'm setting up my little stuff still, and I'm hearing the music and I'm thinking, I don't know what I'm going to do because I can't ask Jeff Hiller if we can go in his room. I mean, I could, but it would be inappropriate. All the conference rooms are full. This music is going to make this possibly unusable. And then all of a sudden, just like magic, the muzak went away and we were able to do this interview at the Heathman Hotel. So shout out to the fine folks there for being very accommodating and nice. Shout out also to Jeff Hiller. If you don't know who Jeff Hiller is, where you been? Maybe you haven't been listening to much TBTL because we have been, at least I have been obsessed with, with the TV show Somebody Somewhere. It's an HBO show. It's not TV folks, it's hbo. Although as I think about it, they always told us it's not tv, it's hbo. But then they stopped being HBO for a while and tried to be Max. Does that mean we can start calling it TV if none of us are sticking with whatever our names were supposed to be or not be anyway? The show Somebody Somewhere stars Bridget Everett, the fabulous cabaret performer from New York and other places as this character named Sam, who is back in Manhattan, Kansas, where she grew up, because her sister has died quite unexpectedly. And she's there to kind of, I don't know, try to deal with this grief and I guess help her family out a little bit. Her parents are both getting older and are going through problems and she's got a sister that is alive that she's not very close to. And she's just in that moment that people find themselves in in adulthood where your grown up life does not look exactly the way you thought your grown up life was going to look. And I think this happens for all of us to one degree or another. You know, when you're a kid you think about, I don't know, you just have your hopes and dreams and you think everybody thinks they're going to be a professional athlete or a famous rock and roll singer or famous writer or something. Maybe it doesn't all revolve around fame. Maybe that was just my particular hang up. But like people find themselves in that moment where their grown up life does not look like the way they thought their grown up life was going to look. And Sam's character is in that moment back in Manhattan, Kansas, just trying to kind of figure it out. And she bumps into this guy named Joel who's never left the town and who was in show choir with her back when they were in high school, back when she was kind of the star of the show choir because she's like a phenomenal singer. But she made a really big impression on him. He did not make as big of an impression on her. She's kind of at first kind of doesn't even know who he is, doesn't remember him. But they become friends and then they become really good friends and then they become kind of each other's people. And this is something that I think is so Amazing about this show, somebody somewhere. And I. Not to name drop, but I know that this isn't just speculation for me because I've actually talk to Bridget Everett about this at length. But she wanted to make a show that demonstrated a kind of important primary relationship in life with someone that is not necessarily romantic. Basically, she wanted to put forward the idea that sometimes your person can be someone you're friends with. I mean, your person, it can look like a lot of different things. If this was a different kind of show that was in less capable hands, the takeaway would have been Sam's just gotta find love and that'll fix all her problems. This is not that show. This is a show about how you can find a person that you really need in all kinds of different ways and in all kinds of different forms. And that's one of the things that is just like so beautiful about it. So Joel and Sam become friends. I thought I would just play this little clip. Now listen, if you know the show, somebody somewhere, you've probably seen this, watched it, listen to it, whatever. If you haven't though, this is maybe new to you. And I figure if you have, if you are familiar with this, you won't mind hearing it again. This is just Joel. This is a sampling of their relationship. This is Joel and Sam just having a chat on somebody somewhere. Shit. This is getting real, huh?

[Jeff Hiller]

It really is. What's your dream wedding? Oh, I'm so glad you asked.

[Luke Burbank]

I don't know.

[Jeff Hiller]

Okay, I'll go first. I think it'll be in a church, of course. And it would be this cute little church that I grew up in. And it's very tiny and sort of like surrounded by fields. And so it would be intimate and just close family and friends. And I would wear something really cute, you know, just festive. But not like white or bridal because you gotta keep them guessing.

[Luke Burbank]

You gotta keep em guessing.

[Jeff Hiller]

And I would walk down the aisle to the song Gloria by Laura Brannigan. And of course in my childhood I dreamed that I would fly her in to sing it. But now I have you.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, it's all. You can't touch Branigan.

[Jeff Hiller]

You can touch Branigan.

[Luke Burbank]

No Barbara. No Judy. No Branigan.

[Jeff Hiller]

Come on, Gloria. Gloria.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, I think they've got your number, Gloria. I think they've got the alias Gloria that you've been living under. But you really don't remember. Was it something that they said? All the voices in your head.

[Jeff Hiller]

Call him Gloria.

[Luke Burbank]

Shake him Gloria. Gloria.

[Jeff Hiller]

Gloria. So what about you? Oh.

[Luke Burbank]

I spent so much Time trying to figure out where to cut that clip. Like where in Bridget Everett's singing of that Laura Brannigan song, I should duck out of the tape. And I couldn't find a place because it's so joyful and I love it so much and I love them and their relationship. It's just a phenomenal, phenomenal show that I cannot recommend highly enough. And I will stop going on and on about it because now I will go on and on for a moment about Jeff Hiller's memoir, which is called Actress of a Certain Age. And it's basically about his early life in Texas and then his 20s, 30s and 40s trying to kind of make it in the world of entertainment and really not having a lot of success. Now he was making his way onto certain shows. He would. You'd see him quickly as the flight attendant on Will and Grace or something. You know, he was on 30 Rock for like a scene. He was on a lot of shows for like one scene, which is cool, except it doesn't. That pays you for one day of work. That's not. Unless you're somehow stacking up one day scenes all year long. You can't really make a living doing that. You don't get healthcare. It's this kind of sort of liminal state of being in the entertainment business, which is where he was for many, many years. And at times even sort of toyed lightly with the idea of maybe getting into like going to grad school or doing something else. But then when he was in his mid-40s, he got this email from Bridget Everett saying, hey, we're gonna shoot this pilot. And it's for this TV show. It doesn't really pay anything, the pilot, but I was wondering if you would read for it. And he did. And he got the role of Joel. And then the show got three seasons and I guess it had. It's weird. I bet you this is how you feel as a TBTL listener. I bet you feel like, well, actually, I don't know, we spend a lot of time telling you that nobody listens to tbtl, so maybe you're well aware of it. But like there's this phenomenon that happens, I think when you like something a lot that is a very niche product that you. One can tend to overestimate the general awareness of it. And I think that's kind of my relationship with the show. Somebody somewhere, because I just think, oh, everyone knows about this show. It's so good. But I think it's actually kind of a pretty niche product. And so it was kind of remarkable when Jeff Hiller was nominated for an Emmy. And by the way, the good kind of Emmy, like the real one, like a primetime Emmy, not the one that I got, like behind me, these daytime Emmys, which are like, honestly, I don't even know what I could get for scrap for those things. But he gets nominated for an Emmy from this little show that not that many people are watching, I guess, and then wins against, like a bunch of incredible comedic actors. And also, for some reason, I think Harrison Ford was nominated. Totally insane. But he ends up winning the Emmy and he gives this really beautiful, really funny speech. Take a listen to this. Okay. And the Emmy goes to Jeff Hiller. Somebody, somewhere. By the way, I absolutely love the walk up music. First Emmy win and nomination for Jeff Hiller. Because this is the music from the show, which is what they do. But it sounds like a cartoon elephant walking to the stage.

[Jeff Hiller]

I feel like I'm gonna cry because for the past 25 years, I've been like, world, I wanna be an actor. And the world's like, maybe computers. And I just wanna say thank you to HBO for putting a show about sweaty middle aged people on the same network as the sexy teens of euphoria. Thank you to the Duplass brothers and Carolyn Strauss and Hannah Boz and Paul Thuring, who wrote a show about connecting and love in this time when compassion is seen as a weakness. And thank you to my sweet husband and my family for never laughing at me. And most of all, thank you, Bridget Everett. You changed my life and you told so many people to believe in themselves, and they do.

[Luke Burbank]

Thank you. So that's Jeff Hiller winning his Emmy. And that's about all you need to know about this person we are about to hear from. So without further ado, Jeff Hiller, welcome to tbtl.

[Jeff Hiller]

Thank you.

[Luke Burbank]

So you and I were texting, trying to set this up. We're in the way back of the restaurant at the Heathman Hotel in Portland.

[Jeff Hiller]

I know, but there must be like some. I mean, you can hear the hash that's being slung.

[Luke Burbank]

I know, but I think kind of in a fun way, don't you think? This is like, look out, Ira Glass. You're not the only one with an omnidirectional microphone and a dream. We were trying to set this up and you said, okay, but first I've got to go on my jog. And I'm just wondering, like, you're a pretty tall individual.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Pretty recognizable now. Emmy winner, when you jog around Portland, you're getting attention are people.

[Jeff Hiller]

Not a single soul recognized me. Maybe that was just because they're respectful, or maybe they just didn't know who I was.

[Luke Burbank]

Is that the kind of thing now for you where it's still kind of fun when people know who you are, or are you at the point now where, like, you'd much rather just be able to go about your life in peace, generally speaking?

[Jeff Hiller]

No, I am completely able to go about my life in peace, generally speaking. And I like it when people recognize me. I think it's because, you know, it's not like people are coming up and being like, say, you talking to me.

[Luke Burbank]

You know, they're like, you don't have a catchphrase. Exactly.

[Jeff Hiller]

They're just like, I love the show. You seem nice. That kind of a thing. So it feels great.

[Luke Burbank]

The thing is about ever admitting that maybe someone's recognizing you is that you then open up the possibility that they're totally not. And you are gonna look so conceited.

[Jeff Hiller]

It's so awful.

[Luke Burbank]

It's just that for. You know. And I'll never get to the Jeff Hiller heights, but even in my little micro celebrity, it keeps me from ever. Somebody could be, I don't know, crawling into my lap, telling me that they, like, love the show, and I would still. It would kill me to admit that they were aware of me because, again, the chance of saying or thinking that they know who I am when they don't, I would die from that.

[Jeff Hiller]

And some. Lately, several people have asked me, are you who I think you are? And I'm like, I'm not falling for that trick.

[Luke Burbank]

That's a loaded question.

[Jeff Hiller]

Exactly. I don't know who you think I am. What if you think I'm Chris Colfer? I don't know.

[Luke Burbank]

We have a rule on this show, this podcast to the listeners that if they see us in public, they have to identify themselves. And the reason is, A, because my fragile ego needs it, and B, because I am often acting wildly inappropriate. And if I know that someone there is aware of me from my job stuff, I will act lot better. What I don't ever want to be is observed in the world without knowing you're being observed. Exactly.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah. That I do fear, because I do feel like people don't necessarily come up and say stuff to me, but they still clock you every once in a while. And that part, I am like, oh, God, what if I'm picking my nose or my wedgie or I'm not worried about, like, getting drunk and going crazy. I'M more worried about, like, yeah, like I'm gonna fart. Who's gonna hear?

[Luke Burbank]

You're not a person who seems like you've ever had a thing with drinking. Right. You write in the book it was more cookies.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yes, exactly. That's really my issue. Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Jeff Hiller]

Well, because, I mean, I. I do drink, but, like, I don't drink. Like, Joel on somebody's somewhere drinks. He drinks a lot more than I do.

[Luke Burbank]

More teenies.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Like, for him than you.

[Jeff Hiller]

Like, I did hard liquor last night and my watch was like, what have you done? Your. Your stats are all off.

[Luke Burbank]

Your fitness watch.

[Jeff Hiller]

Exactly.

[Luke Burbank]

Your aura ring was not liking it.

[Jeff Hiller]

It was like, girl, calm down. And it's true. I was like. As I was drinking last night, I was like, oh, my God, I feel like I'm already drunk. But people. I did an improv show at this point. Really fun place in Portland called Kickstand Comedy.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, yeah, they're great.

[Jeff Hiller]

And then they, they were very kind and they bought me a drink after. And it's just a lot.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, they're big on that. I helped them out with a thing this summer at a park where like 5,000 people came out to the comedy show.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yes.

[Luke Burbank]

And I'm not a stand up comedian by training.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, I was supposed to do that because that was when I was originally doing Kickstand or Livewire. Yeah, I was gonna do that too, but I didn't.

[Luke Burbank]

I had to fill in for you at the last minute. Did you? It didn't go well. No. What I realized was like, stand up comedy, I know you're talking about improv last night, but, like, I stand in front of crowds and I say my little stuff, but to really be a stand up comic who can kind of like control the room and like, it is such a skill and an art that you really develop over time. That just me wandering out there going like, hey, it's Luke from Livewire. Wasn't it was not cutting it. But the point is, afterwards, they all want to do shot. They want to do a big shot to celebrate the end of the season. But I had to drive home, so I had to politely decline. But they sound like a pretty rowdy bunch.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, they were really nice. One of them, her name was Mariah. And I said, oh, like this singer. And she goes, yeah, I was named after her. And I was like, whoa. And then she was like 30. I was like, holy shit, Would you.

[Luke Burbank]

Put that MTV Cribs with Mariah up there in the pantheon of maybe greatest tell. Are you familiar With.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yes, I am. I mean, I'm more familiar with like that New Year's Eve special or the like. I don't know her.

[Luke Burbank]

Uh huh.

[Jeff Hiller]

But I do remember the Cribs. And I was into it.

[Luke Burbank]

I think maybe for us straights that was the first view into the truly, let's just say, unique mind of Mariah Carey. Because, you know, I liked the songs that I had heard and stuff. I wasn't clocking her super closely and then I see that she's like in a bathtub holding a folder full of fan mail while MTV there is filming it. I was like, all right.

[Jeff Hiller]

She'S living her life.

[Luke Burbank]

She absolutely is. I mean, good for her. God, the amount of money she must be making off of that. All I went for Christmas song.

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, I know. And every year. Every year.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm not tired of it yet, are you?

[Jeff Hiller]

Me neither. It's so good. It's so good. I love it.

[Luke Burbank]

It really. It sort of ushers in the season for me. But I'm that one.

[Jeff Hiller]

And the Darlene Love one.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, yeah. Christmas. That's my impression of Phil Spector's Wall of sound. Did it work?

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, I was blown away. Yeah, you were like, I was at a Beatles concert.

[Luke Burbank]

It was like a wall of sound came after you. Some of the. I mean, there was so much in the book, by the way, the book is called Actress of a Certain Age. But I loved it so much. But the stuff about you growing up really Christian resonated with me because I also grew up very, very Christian.

[Jeff Hiller]

Seattle.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, in Northern California, on a religious commune for a while. And then in Seattle.

[Jeff Hiller]

What was the religion?

[Luke Burbank]

It was evangelical. So what it was was like, it sounds like you went to a fairly progressive kind of Lutheran situation, but every time you ended up in the wrong place, like the wrong summer camp or the place that you were staying, the commune, as you call it, was a little more skewing towards speaking in tongues. My life was all that stuff. Like, I always used to joke that it wasn't because my dad was the pastor of the church. And my, like, sort of joke, slash, the real thing is it was like, it wasn't that they were against taking up serpents, they just didn't know where to get any serpents. But you talk about like speaking in tongues in the book, that must have blown your mind.

[Jeff Hiller]

It did, it did. And also just like how people would say, like, we have to accept Christ into our heart and stuff. And like, you know, Protestants don't do that. So it was very much like I was a little bit afraid of it, but I also was like, I love to join. I love to join anything. I will join a cult. Like I would join a culture. So I have to be careful.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, you're talking about being a little left out of the. What was it? Nxivm.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yes. Not get asked to join the Nexium cult. Which, whatever, it's fine. But yeah, I do feel like when I was there, I wanted to be a part of it, you know, I mean, I didn't ever like speak in tongues. I never like figured out how to do that or whatever. But I was so like, oh, this is some beautiful spirit spiritual thing that you're doing and I want you to have this moment and I want to support you. But it was a little weird.

[Luke Burbank]

We had a thing, me and my sisters, I'm the oldest of seven kids. We would do impressions of how people would speak in tongues in the church at Gospel Outreach Christian Fellowship. Because it turns out it's actually very hard to create a truly unique and non repetitive.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yes, exactly.

[Luke Burbank]

Like made up sound. So the. So like, you know, so it'd be like she Diakodia, she Diakodia, she Diakodia be like Tim Nabakowski.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah. That's so funny that you did impressions of people's spirits speaking in tongues because.

[Luke Burbank]

Everyone just had their go to.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right?

[Luke Burbank]

And we were just kids just like listening endlessly every Sunday for hours and hours. So our church was really like into some pretty. Again, both hardcore and I would say questionable theology. But like our church was hung up on this idea that in the Bible it somehow says that like the speaking in tongues is a language between the person doing it and God and no one is supposed to interpret it. So sometimes somebody would get up, there'd be like a breakdown like after worship, just kind of like a long noodling. Did they do that at the Lutheran Church?

[Jeff Hiller]

Yes, they do that. Not speaking in tongues. Yes, they'll have like a kind of a. It's almost like a coffee, a fellowship hour or like a. You know, you're just like hanging out and as you leave the church.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, no, no. This is like the worship service. We've ended the part of this worship service where the formal songs have been played and we're singing, but now the music's still going and now everyone's just kind of vibing. We haven't gotten to the sermon yet and it's like, oh, I don't think. And then people just are kind of sing songing and it's like the Band just kind of like going over musically just like a repetitive extended jam of whatever the song was. And it'd be like, Lord, we just. By the way, you really zeroed in on something else in the book about the overuse of the word just. Dear Lord Jesus, we just come before you right now, Lord Jesus, and we just ask you, Lord, that you would just. Lord, you would bind on earth what is bound in heaven, Lord, and you would just. You would loose on like just is. It's this weird verbal crutch that evangelicals really use.

[Jeff Hiller]

And Jesus too. Like. Yeah. The mantra.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, yeah. Or different ways to address Jesus, Lord and heavenly Father or Jesus or like there's somebody has out of thesaurus. Other things you could call Jesus. All in all, though, it seems like you have a pretty good. Even though it sounds like you're not really practicing, you don't go to church every day or anything, but it sounds like you were not particularly traumatized by the experience of being in church a lot. Like, you kind of. You took good stuff from it and you left behind the stuff that didn't work for you.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah. And I met. I met so many people who are like just the coolest people who are like pro social justice, pro feeding the hungry, pro loving everyone, you know, and nothing like the, you know, sort of the mainstream view of what Christians are, which is really Christian nationalism or whatever.

[Luke Burbank]

Right.

[Jeff Hiller]

You know, or white nationalism, really. And these are not that. These are like crunchy, funky, kind, warm, compassionate human beings.

[Luke Burbank]

Yes.

[Jeff Hiller]

Who, you know, believe in a higher power. I mean, like, I don't make fun of people who believe in astrology, so why am I gonna make fun of the Only the problem is that is.

[Luke Burbank]

Such an Aries thing to say.

[Jeff Hiller]

Well, that's weird because I'm not. I'm a Sagittarius.

[Luke Burbank]

Dang it. I had a 1 in 12 chance actually. I don't know how many signs there are.

[Jeff Hiller]

You read my book. You know, I'm a December birthday.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, that's true. Oh, I sure do. Because we are both right now as we record this 49 years old.

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, and when are you May.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay, so you've got a couple. There'll be just. We're gonna go out of sync for like a few months. But don't worry, I'll be right back with you@big5O. How are you feeling about that, by the way?

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, I mean, I have to tell you, compared to what happened, what I was feeling when I turned 40. Yeah, I'm really. I'm good.

[Luke Burbank]

I mean, Big, big decade for. It was a big decade for Jeff Hiller, really.

[Jeff Hiller]

It was just a big, like, last two or three years, because the first. The first part of the 40s were pretty. I'd say, average to below average.

[Luke Burbank]

So. So you're. Yeah. I mean, that's going into 50. But having had the last few years that you've had with everything, with the TV show and the book and the Emmy, Congratulations.

[Jeff Hiller]

Thank you.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. That's gotta put some wind in your sails.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, it does. And it also. I think when I turned 40, I was like, oh, well, it passed and it didn't happen, so it's never gonna happen.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Jeff Hiller]

Like, I have to pack it in and not live anymore. Cause I didn't catch the train at 35, and. And now I realize that's dumb.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. Yeah. The book is so interesting to me because it's not just. It's not really the story. I don't want to give too much away, but there's.

[Jeff Hiller]

I think you're fine.

[Luke Burbank]

The point is, like, it's not like I sort of thought, oh, I bet you that somebody somewhere was the last helicopter out of Saigon for you. You know, it's that or nothing. And then you write in the book, you're like, it might have felt that way, but also, you weren't gonna quit acting. You would have been. It was. It's too fundamental to who you are. And so you would have kept going for things, and still you'd be doing it.

[Jeff Hiller]

You know, I mean, it's so great to have had something that people really connected to, to win an award. It's amazing, but it's not. That can't be the reason why you do it.

[Luke Burbank]

Because that's easy to say now, now that you have it.

[Jeff Hiller]

Well, yeah, but. But in a way, it's like, I didn't need it because I kept going even without that for so long.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Jeff Hiller]

Without. You know, people are like, sometimes other people will be like, but you worked a lot. And I was. I would work, like, two or three days a year, and then I would teach improv and hope I'd get a comp or something like that. But it wasn't really. And that fed me. I did improv for free. And that fed me. I did stand up, and I would make, you know, $15 a show. And that fed me. I mean, it didn't pay. It didn't feed me.

[Luke Burbank]

Like, it paid for my food emotionally.

[Jeff Hiller]

It fed you my artistic soul.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. And you had a podcast.

[Jeff Hiller]

I did.

[Luke Burbank]

I did.

[Jeff Hiller]

And that's why I feel like I always have to say yes to anyone who asked me to be on a podcast.

[Luke Burbank]

I know this is probably triggering for you now that you're like, wait, I have an Emmy? And now I'm in this restaurant talking to a guy who's recording it on his laptop.

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, listen, this is not even close to the worst podcast I've been on. Not even close.

[Luke Burbank]

What's the.

[Jeff Hiller]

I had to stop. Like, sometimes people just ask me to be on their podcast, like, over social media, and I had to stop because I've gotten so burned.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, no.

[Jeff Hiller]

By just, like, people who can't. You know, who are just not ready to be a host.

[Luke Burbank]

Sure. Right. Like, they're sort of. Their reach exceeds their grasp as far as what they are hoping to do versus what they're able to actually do in the conversation and things like that. Yeah, I.

[Jeff Hiller]

And I just don't have time.

[Luke Burbank]

It's like, well, yeah, it takes up.

[Jeff Hiller]

A lot of time.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, and again, I don't want to keep, like, sort of going back to this, but it's like, you have to be very, very busy these days with. I mean, you're promoting the book, you're shooting a lot of stuff now. I'm sure that your agents are burning the candle at both ends. Like, it's got to be a huge thing to have, like, all the stuff come with the show and the Emmy and everything, right?

[Jeff Hiller]

Yes. I mean, you know, my manager, when I got nominated, which was, like, a huge shock. No one had predicted it. It was not. I was. When I say I was surprised, I mean, I was genuinely surprised. Like, I had to do all these interviews with awards experts who would be like, how did this happen? I mean, no one thought that would happen. And so. And he was like. Like, he cried when I got nominated. And then he was like, being nominated is enough. It is enough. You have already won. Just the fact that you are in this tier, it's so huge. And then when I won, he was like, yes, so much more. And I was like, I thought being nominated was enough.

[Luke Burbank]

So he had a lot of faith in you.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

But, yeah, you must be super duper busy now. So thank you for, you know, slumming and doing this podcast. I do want to talk about your. I want to talk about your Portland today.

[Jeff Hiller]

I'm not doing.

[Luke Burbank]

I want to talk about your podcast. So that you did have. Which was called Touche.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yes.

[Luke Burbank]

But you wanted it to be called. And we can say this because this is on the Internet. It was. It was supposed to be Called. Well, can you set up a little bit of what. What it was a reference to? Because I. And first set it up. And then I want to ask if, as a CIS straight man, if it is appropriation for me to use this, because I love this term.

[Jeff Hiller]

Well, I don't know if I'm the. I'm the person that can condone whether or not you can use it, but. So our show was about mid career actors who still have to have day jobs and you're over 40 and you still want to be an actor. But it has really great. You have a lot of zeal and zest when you're in your 20s and even in your 30s, you're like, yes, yes. But somehow once you cross 40, it's like, oh, my God, this is exhausting. And my friends all have washers and dryers in dining rooms, and I live in a tiny apartment. And. And so we made a show about that and we thought thematically or thematically. I've learned the word. Thematically is not. No, themic is not a word. Thematically isn't a word.

[Luke Burbank]

Okay. I was just doing a lot of retrospective. Feeling bad.

[Jeff Hiller]

So there's a term that dancers use on Broadway after a day when they had a matinee and a night performance. And it's like a term that just means like, I'm worn out, it's rough, I'm feeling hot.

[Luke Burbank]

If you're. I want to say to the listeners, if you are in the car with kids, which is about 80% of our demo, they're about to learn. They're about to learn something.

[Jeff Hiller]

All right, Sorry, kids. I'm gonna rocket you into a new world. But they call it to show, which.

[Luke Burbank]

Is just things are not fragrant down there because of the physical exertion, because.

[Jeff Hiller]

All the sweating from kicking your face for two full shows.

[Luke Burbank]

But you said also there are male dancers, male performers that will also use this in the theater.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yes, it's primarily used by gay men.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, that's what I was asking you to be a bridge between the women who say it, the gay men who say it, and the guys like me who have no business saying it. I wanted to get my. I wanted to get my.

[Jeff Hiller]

I don't know, you know, it's.

[Luke Burbank]

Maybe we've had enough.

[Jeff Hiller]

It's like you can call certain people certain things as long as, you know, you can tell from the tone of. If it's meant. Yes, yes, Joyfully. Maybe just don't do it.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. You know what I mean? This is something that we. Because the Usual co host of the show is another, like, straight white male. And we've been doing the show for a long time and we've done it through a lot of different, you know, kind of. Right.

[Jeff Hiller]

For 17 years. You can't do it both every day.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, yeah, well, five days a week. Yeah.

[Jeff Hiller]

Is that it?

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. But just we take the Sabbath off. Unless my ox falls into a ditch and then I am allowed to pull it out. I don't know how into Sabbath law y' all got there at the Lutheran school.

[Jeff Hiller]

But, you know, all I know is Jesus said Sabbath is for you, not you for the Sabbath.

[Luke Burbank]

There you go. But we've, you know, we. And it's been a journey to just try to figure out how to talk about things. And also the kind of language that we use and the kind of, you know, the way we. And. And what we always come back to is like, if there's something that we were saying or that we used to say and it made someone feel not great, how important is it to us to say this to like, what hill do I want to die on? The hill of saying some term that, like, I don't mean it to bum someone out, but it is. And there's a bunch of other terms.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right.

[Luke Burbank]

That I could use.

[Jeff Hiller]

It's that knee jerk defense mechanism where you're like, I was doing that soon. I know I'm gonna just double down and make it even worse when. When you could just be like, oh, God, I'm sorry.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, okay, I'll pick something else. Yeah, one show.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

You know, something dignified.

[Jeff Hiller]

You know, the one that I am really having a hard time is I always say, that's so crazy. And someone said they don't really like that. So I've been trying to say, that's so wild.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, yeah, that's a good fix.

[Jeff Hiller]

But I do have a problem continually going back to it, which I feel, you know, because I'm with you. I'm like, I don't need to say that. But it does take a little practice.

[Luke Burbank]

Wild sounds actually more fun if you can retrain your brain to say. I mean, that's also. It's nice when you can slide something else in that is not bumming someone out and is fun to say. Exactly. You know, we got really hung up on something that started out. I don't. I'm not strictly a vegetarian, but I'm kind of mostly don't eat a lot of meat. I have this thing that I kind of call intrusive animal empathy. If I start thinking about like an animal being cold. Just like, I'll just be in bed and I'll be like, oh, my God, there's a cow somewhere that is so cold, it just like, could ruin my night. So, yeah. So, you know, PETA's whole thing. Thank you. Thank you. I don't like to throw the word hero around, but. But, like, you know, PETA put out this list one time of things that they wanted people to start saying instead of like, I don't know if you'd call them idioms or little statement. Like little things that we have all said for our whole life that are kind of. You actually take them apart. You go, look, oh, that's kind of mean to an animal right? Now, we started saying these things because we thought they were obviously ridiculous, right? But now we can't even say the old thing because we're stuck on the ridiculous ones, such as that. You're not supposed to say, beat a dead horse. You're supposed to say, feed a fed horse.

[Jeff Hiller]

I like it.

[Luke Burbank]

You're not supposed to say, I don't have a dog in this. In this fight. I don't have a dog in this fight. Which also, I don't know how many people were saying that, but now we started to say, I don't have a dog on this flight, which I think somehow morphed into, I don't have a dog, Doug, on this flight. Oh, and you're not. Wait, you're not supposed to say, this is the best one. You're not supposed to say, kill two birds with one stone.

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh.

[Luke Burbank]

You're supposed to say, I don't mean to feed two birds with one scone. Which is so much more fun to say.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, but I don't think it has the same. It doesn't sound the same to me. It sounds the opposite to me.

[Luke Burbank]

It is, you know. Well, yeah, I guess if you think of killing two birds with one stone as like, I'm getting two things done.

[Jeff Hiller]

Uh huh. Oh, I see.

[Luke Burbank]

Maybe the. But you're right.

[Jeff Hiller]

Feeding two birds with only one.

[Luke Burbank]

One scone. But I will tell you that a word, a word of warning, it is a real conversation stopper. Whereas you might say, hey, you know, let's just kill two birds with one stone. We'll do the thing while we're on the other thing. If you say, hey, let's just feed two birds with one scone, whoever you're talking to is like, are you having an aphasia? Was your podcast. Did you get traction? I mean, you're such a delight I would have to imagine that people liked the show.

[Jeff Hiller]

It was just so niche, and it was kind of. I mean, I know everyone says that everyone has a podcast now, but really, even in 2017, everybody had a podcast already.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Jeff Hiller]

And so there's a lot of.

[Luke Burbank]

Lot of noise out there.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah. I think, like, the people who listened to us were actors over 40, and that was kind of it.

[Luke Burbank]

Would you ever. I mean, would you ever do another podcast now that you. I mean, Spotify would probably pay you a bunch of dough. Is that even a conversation that your management ever comes to you like? Okay. Because your celebrity level is here now, and there's some money in that.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, well, apparently there's not any money in podcasting.

[Luke Burbank]

Tell me about it. Look where we are. This is humiliating.

[Jeff Hiller]

I am. I did have a company come to me, but I just. I want to make it something that I. That I'm interested in doing every week. I don't want to do something where I'm like, ugh, I have to go record this dumb podcast. I want it to be something that, like, feeds me too, because from it. Exactly. But I'm not going to get rich from it. I don't want to. I don't want to spend a lot of time doing something that I don't love.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, my unsolicited advice to you as an Emmy award winner who had their own podcast already.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Definitely don't let them ever try to. And I don't think you would talk you into some sort of generalist. It's like, it's going to be about movies or it's going to be. I feel like I always call this narrow casting. I'm a big fan of. And also, honestly, I'm incapable of broadcasting. It's always pretty narrow. But that's so much more fun in my experience. Like, I just like talking about the stuff that I want to talk about. And whenever you're meeting with executives or, like, people that don't host podcasts or shows, they're always just like, they want it to be all things to all people. And I always just think it's so much better. I mean, that I think kind of really. Well, I was going to say.

[Jeff Hiller]

Wait, so wait, are you saying I should narrow cast?

[Luke Burbank]

Yes, you should narrow cast.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right. So I should be like, I want to talk about movies that are horror movies from the 80s or something like.

[Luke Burbank]

That, directed by one director. I want you to get down to.

[Jeff Hiller]

Like, the most Wes Craven podcast.

[Luke Burbank]

Thank you. That's priority. Done. It's got to be more Obscure than that.

[Jeff Hiller]

It's got to be more obscure.

[Luke Burbank]

I was going to say, though, that, like, in a way, that brings me back to somebody somewhere. Except one of the things about the show that I have found so incredible is that, like, I have recommended it to such a wide range of people. My evangelical parents, who loved it.

[Jeff Hiller]

You're kidding me.

[Luke Burbank]

They binged it. I was going somewhere for work. They were staying at my house because I think they're trying to get squatters rights. It's a whole thing. They are at my house constantly. My mom will hear this, by the way, because she also listens to the show. The other day, I complained that every time my parents come over, they move everything in my house by one inch. It's like a psychological torture. And then I was talking to them on the phone today, and my mom goes, well, I promise we won't move everything by one inch when we come over. I was like, you were listening an hour and a half into the show.

[Jeff Hiller]

I want her to now purposely move everything an inch.

[Luke Burbank]

She will. If she doesn't forget that I said that. That's another thing. She's a real. You know, her memory regenerates itself every single day. There's like, a whole new day to her or something. But they loved somebody somewhere. I was going out of town. They were staying at my house. And I'm always trying to put them onto a good show. And, you know, so they started watching it. And again, it's like, I just love the character so much, and I love the pace of the show. I love everything about it. But I didn't know if it'd work for them. They're in their 70s. They don't watch a lot of, like, good comedy. I mean, honestly, like, it's my mom. The main thing she watches is, like, season four of King of Queens on vhs. And it's because my. My Uncle Chuck gave it to her. And this as he gave her, he goes, I know it's not the best season, but it was on sale, so. And then I go on my trip, and I'm expecting them to be like, but there was a lot of gayness on that show or something. I don't know if they. And they were just, like. They had watched the entire thing in, like, one and a half days. Wow. And I feel like that's. I have recommended the show to a lot of people, and I wasn't sure if they were gonna love it or not. And they love it. I feel like the show, even though it is a very specific voice, I Feel like maybe it's just people mind.

[Jeff Hiller]

Like the diarrhea and the pooping and the drinking.

[Luke Burbank]

And I've cured them of that whole squeamishness by once shitting my pants at a Seattle Mariners game when I was, like, 12.

[Jeff Hiller]

Way to do God's work.

[Luke Burbank]

I know. I'm a. I'm. I'm an ally. But anyway, I guess I'm just wondering, like, who. What's your experience been with the kind of people who really lock into the show? And have you been surprised, I guess, by any of the fan bases or, like, just by people who come up to you and maybe it's like somebody. You're like, oh, I wouldn't have pegged you for, like, a somebody somewhere.

[Jeff Hiller]

I mean, it's. It's usually women between 40 and 60. 60. Usually lesbian or pansexual or something.

[Luke Burbank]

Huh. That come up to you?

[Jeff Hiller]

Yes.

[Luke Burbank]

But there could be. Did I tell you, you know, I did a TV thing with Bridget?

[Jeff Hiller]

No.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, Yeah. I have this other job. I work for cbs and where they're dimming the lights in there. Honestly, things are getting sexy, and I'm not against it. So, yeah, I have a TV job for cbs and I did a profile of Bridget. So we went to Joe's Pub, and we went to Manhattan, Kansas, to get together. Oh, wow. And it was wild because we were just standing out in front of some of the locations, you know, and, like, the theater where you guys, you know, screened the final episode and stuff.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

And what was. There were so many people. Well, there was at least three groups of people that had just come through Manhattan, Kansas, because of the show. Yeah, people on road trips. Like, you know, like one gal with a real. Can I talk to a manager? Kind of haircut. And her and her husband, and they were from North Carolina, and Bridget and I are standing and talking, and these people are walking down the street, and then they just stop. And then we finish up our thing and they come over and they're like, the woman is crying and the husband is geeking out harder than the woman, and they are losing it. Can you imagine?

[Jeff Hiller]

It would be shocking.

[Luke Burbank]

You drive to Manhattan, Kansas, on a.

[Jeff Hiller]

Tuesday, and they're like, there's.

[Luke Burbank]

Sam just stands in front of this theater all day. Like, she's just. And then everywhere we went. Cause we went in the bar where there's, like a cut out of her, another lady comes in and loses her mind. Like, people could. I mean, can you imagine Sam and Joel walking around Manhattan, Kansas on a random day?

[Jeff Hiller]

You should do that during the finale, it was Sam and Joel and Trisha and Fred Rococo.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, my God. I saw a picture. My friend went to the town. There was a picture of you guys in the breakfast joint.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, the chef.

[Luke Burbank]

In the chef. And I think my friend surreptitiously just took a picture of you guys having breakfast in there. Like out of the show.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, exactly. And that was. And we met people who like have moved there. There's a couple who moved there to start like a. Basically a tender moments. Like the shop that Trisha runs.

[Luke Burbank]

Yes.

[Jeff Hiller]

But with like kind of body or naughtier things that some reference the show, but some are just like cool things. I know, it's really wild.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Jeff Hiller]

But I see most. Thank you. I did. I did. I did that kind of just naturally, but I did. Most people I meet who are young say, like, my mom loves your show.

[Luke Burbank]

I find maybe I'm also. I'm also no spring chicken. I guess it's weird, isn't it? I'm like. But a young person like me watches it. A young person who's about to be 50. Like, I'm like, I've got to be. I'm, you know, a hip, cool youth like myself. Yeah. I mean, maybe what it is is like if whatever someone's age or background is, if they have like empathy maybe, you know, like if there's whatever that thing that runs through a person that has sort of a. By the way, my parents are the only evangelicals I know that are not Trump people. All their friends are. And it's really a bummer for them. And their whole thing to bring it back to the Christianity is they're like, have you heard of Jesus's whole deal?

[Jeff Hiller]

Right? Like, it's love, love, love, love, love.

[Luke Burbank]

It was the number one thing this guy was about. And like how it could get twisted into what it's been twisted into by certain people. Like, it really. It shocks them and it's like it's put them totally on the outskirts with all of their friend group, which is a bummer. Although lucky for us because, you know, that could be. That can be really tough in families when that goes on. But anyway. Yeah, so.

[Jeff Hiller]

And are all your siblings maga? They are.

[Luke Burbank]

No. None of them? No. They're like. No. It's a. My parents, to their credit, raised very progressive. You know, kids who did not feel like we had to live any certain way because of what their belief. I mean, that was tough for them.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right.

[Luke Burbank]

There was a period. There's another part in the book where you're talking about how you, when you came out to like your sort of, you know, your I guess, college, church friends, maybe it was the commune.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

And you wrote this kind of, you know, you wrote a beautiful, like a really eloquent and beautiful thing to kind of just describe who you were and who you were not right, et cetera. And I was reminded of the fact. So like I had a kid when I was 17. I felt like it was time, you know, the listeners have heard that joke how many times? Listeners? A hundred thousand times. You've done the whole junior year.

[Jeff Hiller]

So how old is your kid now?

[Luke Burbank]

31.

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh my gosh.

[Luke Burbank]

It's insane. But I was at church youth group leading the worship thing and nobody knew about this baby because I had come, I had only come to this youth group six months previously when my daughter was in utero. And so, and I didn't want to be like the weird, about to be teen dad at the new youth group. Right. So I just didn't really bring it up. But then, then my daughter was born and then I knew it was going to be like, it was pretty hard to hide it after that.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right.

[Luke Burbank]

And it just so happened we had like a church, like a youth group camp out thing. And I stopped, you know, like after, you know, probably awesome as our God or something and was like, I need to tell you all something. I became a father three days ago. Wow. It was a real record scratch moment.

[Jeff Hiller]

How did they react?

[Luke Burbank]

I mean, like, well, there was a girl that I had a crush on and who had a crush on me. And all her friends looked at her like, did you know Jeanette, did you know? I had told her.

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, you had?

[Luke Burbank]

I had. I was trying, I was trying to. I didn't want that to be how she figured it out. But nobody there said like. Whereas a lot of your friends, it sounds like, said, oh yeah, we had an inkling.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right. Well, it's a little different to have.

[Luke Burbank]

An inkling of that would have been weird. Yeah, like we, we figured you were a fan of unprotected sex in a Dodge Dakota. We all kind of saw it coming.

[Jeff Hiller]

Were you still with the mom?

[Luke Burbank]

No, we were, we went to like the junior prom and, and it's. Yeah, we, you know, we came from this school, this very evangelical school where, and it was a small school. I think the whole high school is maybe 150 kids or something. But it was one of those places where the, the, the sort of, the, the advice around sex before marriage was don't do it. And so Everyone did it.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right.

[Luke Burbank]

And everybody got pregnant. There was like probably like a 60% pregnancy rate of either like somebody in the school getting pregnant or somebody in the school getting someone who went to a different school pregnant. It was just, I mean, I mean the fertility amongst a bunch of Christian 17 year olds is. I mean, I don't think that Christianity matters. I think 17 year olds, I mean, we're not supposed to be here a lot after 30, I think is part of the problem. Like biology, you know, evolution.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Like we're still mostly. It hasn't been that long since we died at 35. And nature was like, you better start making a baby at 16.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right, right.

[Luke Burbank]

We're primed for it now, you know, so it's true.

[Jeff Hiller]

And all those hormones and stuff. Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

They're like, do it. Yeah. And then meanwhile, now I'm friends with so many people who are later in life and you know, want to have kids. That's more the generation.

[Jeff Hiller]

More.

[Luke Burbank]

What happened to the. All my friends who didn't go to Christian school.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right.

[Luke Burbank]

They all got jobs, they waited and now they have to get the greatest minds of science together to try to get a baby going, you know.

[Jeff Hiller]

But that's, that's how it is with like weddings too. Like I had this huge thing of weddings in my 20s.

[Luke Burbank]

Uh huh.

[Jeff Hiller]

From all of my college friends. And then in my 30s I had all this huge wave of weddings from just my New York City friends. And then in my 40s, I had a wave of the second weddings of the Christians.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh wow, that's. I'm trying to remember how many. I've been married twice, divorced twice. Not to brag. I'm trying to. I mean my family. I'm trying to think of how many people. The second wedding I had was very small.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right.

[Luke Burbank]

I think a little bit because of that.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right.

[Luke Burbank]

Because I, I definitely felt bad asking the same people to come and buy me another toaster. I was like, that was one was enough for all of you. How about your wedding?

[Jeff Hiller]

Well, we didn't invite anybody. We just went to the courthouse.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. Brooklyn or 1 Center street in like Southern Manhattan.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

I used to work in that building when I worked for wnyc.

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh really?

[Luke Burbank]

Before they had their fancy new studios.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah. Over on the west side.

[Luke Burbank]

They used to be in that building. One Center Street. First of all, I was starstruck because next to it was the courthouse where Bill Curtis would walk down the stairs on like that one crime show that he always did. He'd get to the bottom server. But sometimes dead Men do tell tales. But next to that was 1 Center Street. And so to go to work, I'd have to wait in line with all the people that were there to get married because you go through, like, the metal detector and stuff. It was a very kind of hopeful way to start every morning of work.

[Jeff Hiller]

It was way better than, like, family court or something.

[Luke Burbank]

Yes. It was just a lot of people, you know, that had paperwork and maybe some flowers.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah. I still live downtown, and so I walk by and you'll see, like, you know, people outside in, like, a white dress, but it's. It's not, like, a full wedding dress.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Jeff Hiller]

You know, it's kind of fun.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, it's really sweet. All right. That's why I get married so much, because I'm just a fan of the whole thing. I love, love. Well, Jeff Heller, I love your show, Somebody Somewhere. I love your book, Actors of a Certain Age. I love that you deigned to be on yet another podcast here and that I'm going to interview you again in, like, an hour and a half, which is.

[Jeff Hiller]

You know what?

[Luke Burbank]

You won't even recognize me. Wild. It sure is. You know what? It's not. It's not crazy.

[Jeff Hiller]

I think you might be feeding a fed horse.

[Luke Burbank]

I know you're wishing that this could have. We could have fed two birds with one scone and just made this the interview for tonight. But everybody is so excited to see you at the theater, so we'll have to do that one as well. But listen, thank you for being on tbt. I really appreciate it, having me.

[Jeff Hiller]

This is fun.

[Luke Burbank]

All right, a big thanks to Jeff Hiller for taking this time to talk to us here on tbtl. And, you know, this music could only mean one thing. I still haven't gotten the proper donor music from Andrew, but that's okay, because these are donors getting more done. Donors. Like, I'm not going to read everybody's name that way. That would be weird. Wonderful, generous supporters like Lisa Davenport in Cathedral City, California. Thank you, Lisa, for. By the way. I was trying to. As we were setting up the audio equipment, and I was making small talk with Jeff, I was trying to tell him what he was gonna be on, like, what this thing is, this TBTL thing. And he, like most people, was, I think, pleasantly confused about this happening for 17 years, which it has, thanks to the donations of folks like Lisa. And also Christopher Shade out there in Barrington, Illinois. Thanks, Christopher. Thanks. Also Meg Curtis of Melrose, Massachusetts, and Marion Benner of Maple Valley, Washington. William Galleon checking in from Kenmore, Washington. Look at that. Maple Valley, Kenmore, Washington. And then, of course, West Caldwell, New Jersey, which is where Josh Laster is feeling very butch with this music. I guess it kind of makes sense considering what they're going for. Thank you so much to all of our donors today for voluntarily supporting this thing. There are some fun days. There are days when we get to talk to Jeff Hiller and use equipment that we bought out of the budget from tbtl. Like, honestly, I was using this recording device called a mixpre, using these microphones, which, granted, they didn't match, but they worked kind of. And that's all out of the budget that we have to do this because. And I could do it for my job, because of our donors. So thank you so much for making TBTL possible. Hey, speaking of the TBTL supporters and just the tens in general, I got a message from our friend Mellie out there in New York saying that the TBTL card exchange is live. All write it, and we'll do it live. That's right. If you're somebody who in years past has been participating in the TBTL card exchange, it's happening again. There's a link. I'm guessing that the link is up at, like, the Stens page and maybe over on Slack or other such places where these things happen. But, yeah, if you are part of the card exchange, traditionally, it's happening again. If you've never taken part, this is basically a thing where you get to send a card to attend, like a holiday card or a greeting card or a whatever, and then you'll get one from someone else. Kind of like a cool pen pal program involving cards. And it is so much fun, and people love it so much. So thanks, Mellie, for setting that up again. We appreciate it. All right, we've got one more super butch stanza of music for me to thank you for listening to today's tbtl. Andrew will be back tomorrow, so join us for that. In the meantime, have a great Tuesday, everyone. Take care of yourselves, and please remember, no mountain too tall. And good luck to all. Power out.