#4666 Wing Theory

Summary

TBTL Episode #4666 "Wing Theory" - Summary

Date: February 18, 2026
Hosts: Luke Burbank and Andrew Walsh
Notable Guests (clips): John Moe, Paula Poundstone

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Episode Overview

In this lively and meandering Wednesday edition, Luke and Andrew dive into the thorny controversy of boneless chicken wings—are they really wings?—and how the courts have weighed in. Along the way, the hosts touch on everything from mid-'80s film nostalgia, fighting over garbage bins, the latest internet incel crazes, the peculiarities of nut-based coffee creamers, fleeting hard drive supplies due to AI, and the deep oddities of neighborly disputes turned HBO drama.

As always, their banter is full of affectionate ribbing, nostalgic sidetracks, and meta commentary about podcasting itself.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Minions, the Rise of Gru, and “Who Would Have Minions in Real Life?” (00:00–01:19)

• Luke sets a playful tone by reviewing "Minions: Rise of Gru" and spinning off into a philosophical question:

  “Who in our society would have Minions if they were real? And are they real? And where can I find them? And how despicable do I have to be to get some?” (00:06)

  • This is more of an intro for their classic TBTL sense of humor and doesn’t become the main thread.

2. Banter, Guests, and Fan Culture (01:19–02:33)

• Paula Poundstone and John Moe chime in with comedic takes about fan requests and hygiene.
• Andrew makes fun of their fans (“Do I wish they were a little more hip? Yes. Do I wish they were a tad more on top of their hygiene? Absolutely.” 01:46) in classic affectionate TBTL style.

3. Studio Snow, Heaters, and the Fragile Internet (02:33–03:25)

• Luke describes snow flurries outside the "Madrona Hill Studio" and worries about blowing breakers with too many heaters running (“sometimes when I try to heat it up in here, it throws one of the breakers. And then the Internet goes away and then TBTL goes away for a short time.” 02:43).

4. The Main Event: Boneless Chicken Wings—A Legal Debate (03:26–59:13)

a. The Lawsuit and Recent Ruling (44:03–59:13)

• Andrew is eager to get to the “top story”:

  “I have so many opinions on this topic...it has nothing to do with whether or not I like chicken wings or boneless chicken wings." (04:13)

• They discuss a lawsuit where a consumer sued Buffalo Wild Wings for deceptive advertising, claiming “boneless wings” should literally come from wing meat, not breast meat.
• Judge Ruling: The court ruled in favor of Buffalo Wild Wings, saying context clues make it clear wing refers to cooking style, not the chicken body part (44:21).
  • The judge used puns throughout the ruling (“no meat on its bones”, “did not drum up enough factual allegations” 44:16), which both hosts despise:

    Andrew: “I couldn't agree more. Straight to jail. Straight to jail with you, sir. Disbarred.” (45:27)

b. Who’s Right? Logic or Marketing?

• Andrew’s Take:
  • It’s misleading to call breast meat “wings.”
  • “A wing is a wing. I don’t understand why you can call a breast a wing…there’s a million different things you can call these, but don’t call them a part of the chicken that they're not.” (51:35)
  • He draws an analogy to steak cuts for clarity.
• Luke, more amused, sees the logic but notes people also know what boneless wings are by now.
• Notable Quote:

  “I would feel the same way if it was about like some sort of cottage cheese product.” —Andrew (56:58)

• Discussion of similar lawsuits (involving bones in boneless wings, cauliflower “wings,” and city council petitions to rename menu items) follows.
• Conclusion: Andrew is incensed by the linguistic laxity, while Luke is fascinated by the depth of legal wrangling around fried food.

5. Nut Pods, Expired Creamers, and the PETA Connection (05:22–16:44)

• Luke dithers over using expired half and half or a mysterious almond-coconut “nut pod” creamer.
• “I don’t know how this came into my life, but I remember thinking, eh, you know, couldn’t hurt.” (06:46)
• Turns out the nut pods were sent to him by “Wes from PETA” as part of various promotional campaigns (15:07), leading to musings on PR strategies and podcast transcript monitoring by organizations like PETA.

6. Clavicular, Mogging, and Incels of TikTok (08:04–11:41)

• Discussion about the viral internet “look smacking” influencer “clavicular,” and the subculture’s obsession with male jawline/shoulder ratios:

  “It’s all very, very bad and a very, very depressing thing to think about this being popular online.” — Luke (09:27)

• Introduces the concept of “mogging” (standing next to “less handsome” people to make yourself look better on streams).

7. 80s/90s Film & TV Nostalgia: "The 'Burbs", Tom Hanks, the Coreys, and Macaulay Culkin (16:12–28:21)

• Back-and-forth about the movie "The 'Burbs," Tom Hanks, and generational shifts in comedy and pop culture.
• Recap of Corey Feldman’s “near-MJ” music career, Macaulay Culkin’s resurgence, and musings on child-star legacies.
• Notable quote:

  “He just willed it into existence.” —Luke, on Corey Feldman’s musical career (24:57)

8. Dazzling Donors, Listener Messages, and Unsolicited Dolphin Sightings (28:29–34:32)

• Heartfelt messages from listeners Madeline (who moved from NJ to Minnesota with her “three chickens and 13 year old son August”) and Beth (“Beth Wright, not wrong” 37:07).
• Luke sidetracks into an excited blow-by-blow of possibly “black dolphins” in the Columbia River, visible from his window, and the “David Attenborough”-style scene that unfolds (“It’s a friggin David Attenborough film happening out here” 33:13).
• Memorable Moment: Luke’s dolphin sighting, seagull follow-up, and Andrew accusing him of being “stereo opticoned” (43:21).

9. Music Criticism, Pitchfork’s Paywall, and Social Media Reaction Culture (34:59–39:02)

• Brief commentary on how people now experience “music reaction videos” on TikTok rather than rely on traditional album reviews:

  “That’s now more popular than music criticism. It’s music reactionism.” —Luke (36:31)

10. The Australian “Twinnies”: Dropped Requests and R-Nar-Nar (37:49–42:30)

• By donor request, Andrew plays a classic TBTL drop: the “Australian twins” finishing each other’s sentences on the news, and the viral “r-nar-nar” TikTok impression (39:48–41:41).
• Beth’s request: Luke and Andrew respond with their take on the meme, and context provided for the “Twinnies” and their sea-bird rescue work.

11. Media, Streaming, and the Vanishing Hard Drive (75:41–82:39)

• Both hosts discuss the vanishing availability of portable hard drives and blame AI’s hunger for storage (Western Digital is “sold out for 2026” 79:28).
• Leads to laments about fleeting streaming availability, collector tendencies, and the need to “own” digital copies.

  "It has a lot to do with AI and all of companies needing as much..." —Andrew (79:28)

12. HBO’s "The Other Two", "Neighbors", and Thoughts on Streaming Models (59:13–75:41)

• Luke is charmed by “The Other Two,” praising its sharp, non-cliché writing about siblings of a Justin Bieber-type star (“I think it might be one of the funniest, most well-written shows about Internet culture that I can remember.” 71:15).
• Andrew details how streaming services like HBO now flag their movies as “leaving soon,” feeding a sense of digital impermanence (83:00).
• Analysis of the new HBO docuseries “Neighbors,” which chronicles bizarre real-life neighbor disputes (59:13–68:15), and a meditation on how such shows straddle compelling character study and manufactured drama.

13. Film Discovery: "Le Bonheur" and Commercial Break Rage (84:16–90:35)

• Andrew shares how a casual scroll led him to watch the French film “Le Bonheur” (“I can’t get this film out of my head…” 87:40), and how he was jolted by a sudden, loud Howie Mandel Netflix ad mid-movie.

  “She doesn't fade to black between scenes. She fades to red. Sometimes she fades to green. It's really interesting. But ... it'll just be fading. And then all of a sudden, it'll be the most modern yell in your face." (88:20)

• Brief rant on clashing aesthetics: 1960s France followed by testosterone-pumped Howie Mandel.

14. Podcast Funding, Supplements, and the TBTL Model (92:41–96:19)

• Luke observes the proliferation of dubious supplement/pseudoscience podcast ads—even on otherwise serious/stoic shows.

  “It's wild to me how many podcasts that I really like and respect also do ads for, like, just kooky, kooky medical [stuff].” (92:42)

• Andrew explains why the TBTL, listener-funded with no ads, is unique and precious.

  “This is the only way TBTL works 100%.” (96:19)

15. Paula Poundstone’s Worm Farm, Guest Appearances, and Outro (97:25–end)

• Recollections of Paula Poundstone’s “worm farming” enterprise, selling her fans literal worm castings (“the how the heck does she do it package,” 98:37). Andrew proposes having her back on the pod for more worm talk, and Luke agrees.
• Classic TBTL outro: “No mountain too tall, and good luck to all.” (101:06)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "Who in our society would have Minions if they were real?...Where can I find them? And how despicable do I have to be to get some?" —Luke (00:06)
• “Do I wish our fans were a little more hip? Yes. Do I wish they were a tad more on top of their hygiene? Absolutely.” —Andrew (01:46)
• “I have so many opinions on this topic, and it’s not even coming from a place of ... whether or not I like chicken wings.” —Andrew (04:13)
• "I don't like it when judges take part in wordplay, however trivial the issue." —Luke (45:27)
• "A wing is a wing. I don’t understand why you can call a breast a wing." —Andrew (51:35)
• “He just willed it into existence.” —Luke on Corey Feldman’s music career (24:57)
• "That's now more popular than music criticism. It's music reactionism." —Luke (36:31)
• "I can't get this film out of my head, and I can't exactly even tell you why." —Andrew on Le Bonheur (87:40)
• “There is literally ... nobody has the funding model that we have, which is ... listener supported and in a way that can ... support a daily full time podcast.” —Andrew (95:56)
• “People think I'm kidding when I say that I'm a worm farmer. I’m not kidding.” —Paula Poundstone (98:23)

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Important Timestamps

• Boneless wings lawsuit main segment: (44:03–59:13)
• Nut pods, PETA, and expired coffee creams: (05:22–16:44)
• Dolphin sighting interlude: (32:07–34:32)
• Australian “Twinnies”/R-Nar-Nar drops: (37:49–42:30)
• HBO’s ‘The Other Two’ review: (69:35–75:41)
• Hard drive/AI shortage: (79:28)
• 'Le Bonheur' and commercial break outrage: (84:16–90:35)
• Paula Poundstone worm farm: (97:25–99:37)
• Outro theme: (101:06)

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Tone & Style

• The tone throughout is rambling yet warm—a mix of serious pop culture critique and improvisational absurdity.
• The episode is self-aware, poking fun at its own digressions and the TBTL style (“We are going to get to Nuggets Talk here in a minute. Don’t you worry.” 18:37).
• Banter is affectionate and packed with inside jokes, while genuine thanks are given to listeners during "Dazzling Donors" (Madeline’s NJ-to-MN move with three chickens and a son in tow: “...during the stressful process of selling, buying and moving homes. You especially helped me get through the days of driving our three dogs, three chickens and our 13 year old son August...” 31:15).

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Memorable Moments

• Luke’s excited sighting of a pod of “black dolphins” mid-show and his David Attenborough-style commentary.
• Andrew’s impassioned legal argument against calling anything but actual wings “wings.”
• Paula Poundstone’s worm farming reveal (and worm-calling demonstration video).
• The “r-nar-nar” Australian twins reenactment and how it echoes in all Andrew’s "oh no’s."
• Andrew yelling at a Howie Mandel Netflix ad in the middle of a meditative French film.

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The episode offers a quintessential TBTL experience: tangents that loop back on themselves, idiosyncratic listener shout-outs, and a deep-dive into the absurdities of both pop culture and real life that manages to feel cozy and essential. The boneless wing debate, in all its seriousness-flavored-with-silliness, is the perfect encapsulation of the pod’s world view.

Transcript

[Luke Burbank]

Staff and I went out to go see Minions Rise of Gru. And I just have to say it is fascinating to learn the history of how Gru rose to power. If you don't know Minions, they're these little yellow guys, denim overalls, they speak in a kind of gibberish language. Yaba babbo dabi bibo bonana bon. Minions is a prequel to the Despicable Me franchise. Rise of Gru is a sequel to that prequel. Essentially, the Minions will seek out the most despicable person they can find, in this case, Gru. And just got us to thinking, who in our society would have Minions if they were real? And are they real? And where can I find them? And how despicable do I have to be to get some? Well, today on our show, we will be answering all those questions and more. I will be attempting all manner of heinous acts in order to court the Minions. Will I be successful? Find out when this American Life returns. Stay with us.

[Andrew Walsh]

Tbtl.

[John Moe]

For one thing, I have no shame before another mortal. All my shame is between myself and Christ. I'll never drop my eyes to another human being.

[Unidentified Guest]

It's like the most requested thing when I ask my Facebook what you guys want to see from me.

[Paula Poundstone]

It's like, get drunk, get drunk, get drunk.

[Unidentified Guest]

And there's a time and a place for it.

[Andrew Walsh]

And guess what?

[Paula Poundstone]

That place is now. And that time is now.

[Andrew Walsh]

Do I wish our fans were a little more hip? Yes.

[John Moe]

Do I wish they were a tad.

[Andrew Walsh]

More on top of their hygiene? Absolutely. Do they have a confused look in their eyes like a dog that's heard a stranger? Yeah. But strap that dog to a sled, and, baby, you'll be flying across the tundra.

[Paula Poundstone]

All right.

[John Moe]

Hello, good morning, and welcome, everyone, to a Wednesday edition of tbtl, the show that just might be too beautiful to live. It's called the Danger Witch, and it's dangerously good. My name is Luke Burbank. I am your host. Be careful, though.

[Paula Poundstone]

It's spicy.

[John Moe]

Coming to you from the Madrona Hill studio, perched high above the mighty Columbia, where we've had some snowflakes coming down.

[Andrew Walsh]

Snow, snow, and more snow.

[John Moe]

Not seeing much accumulation, but that's the first time that I've noticed it this year. I think it is the first time this year we've had any amount of snow up here. It's a little chilly. We're running multiple heaters here in the Madonna Hill studio. They're all plugged into different parts of the room so as to hopefully not throw us completely Offline here. As you might know, sometimes when I try to heat it up in here, it throws like, one of the. One of the breakers. And then the Internet goes away and then TBTL goes away for a short time. But we're gonna try to avoid that today here at episode 4666. Ooh, demony in a collector series. Let the fun begin. I was watching some television last night. Well, it was HBO technically, but I was really enjoying it. I love television. I've got to have that thing on 24. 7.

[Andrew Walsh]

I love the patter.

[John Moe]

I was watching two very different kinds of shows that I want to talk about. Also, a judge has officially weighed in on the question of if restaurants can call boneless chicken wings boneless chicken wing. These are the best Cajun chicken niblets I've ever had. What I learned this morning is that there have been a surprising number of times that real judges have been forced to weigh in on the question or the subject matter of boneless chicken wings. It's like there's a fair amount of jurisprudence around the question of boneless chicken wings. So we'll talk about that, and we'll talk to this guy.

[Andrew Walsh]

The guy is a nut bar.

[John Moe]

A nut bar. He is the longest running cobra of the show, maybe best known for his depictions of the tall ships. He's Andrew Walsh and he's joining me right now. Good morning, my friend.

[Andrew Walsh]

Good morning. I'm not trying to be withholding here at the top of the show. I just really want to get to the top story today. I have so many opinions on this topic, and it's not even coming. It's coming from a place of what I think to be just solid logic. It has nothing to do with whether or not I like chicken wings or boneless chicken wings. It's not. It's not.

[John Moe]

You're able to separate your own personal preferences from what you think is the obvious, clear sort of facts of the case.

[Andrew Walsh]

I feel like it's fun to get fake outraged over food topics, but this is not fake my outrage.

[John Moe]

Why don't we do this, Andrew?

[Andrew Walsh]

I didn't want to mess up the show.

[John Moe]

I just thought, I'm not messing up the show. Omaha. Omaha. Why don't we. Why don't we call an audible here and we'll just talk about that first and we can talk about my. My TV shows second. But I do need your help with one thing. Okay, quickly, before we jump into niblet talk, then I, you know, right after we did our sound check this morning, we were About. You're about to start playing the intro. And I said, oh, I've got to run and get this half and half out of the fridge here in the studio for my coffee. And I pulled out this half and half.

[Andrew Walsh]

Throw it away. Whatever the question is, throw it away.

[John Moe]

Well, more time for nibbletalk. So now. So this, this says, best if used by February 19th. Andrew, that's tomorrow. We've still got one day on it. But it. But I will tell you this. I bought this a good while ago. This was in my house. And then at some point, I brought it out here to use. And then I put it in the fridge out here. It's traveled. You know what I mean? It's been sitting out on the counter. It's been in and out of the fridge. It's been in actually multiple refrigerators just here on the property. So that's got me a little nervous. But then what I noticed is I also had in there this thing, something called nut pods, Almond and coconut creamer. The guy is a nut pod.

[Andrew Walsh]

The guy is a nut pod. Honestly, I know that we can take care of those for you. Just cut them right out.

[John Moe]

And this one says, and this is unopened. This has never been opened.

[Andrew Walsh]

Wait, wait, what is nut pod?

[John Moe]

It's a creamer. It's an almond milk.

[Andrew Walsh]

Okay, so non dairy. Okay. Yep.

[John Moe]

A non dairy creamer. I think I got this. Like, was I on a shoot somewhere? They gave the. I don't know. I didn't buy this. I don't remember purchasing this. Maybe it was in a gift pack.

[Andrew Walsh]

Were you at like a Mariners game or something? If somebody shot it out of a cannon, maybe that might have been it.

[John Moe]

That might have been it. I don't know how this came into my life, but I remember thinking, eh, you know, couldn't hurt. So I threw it in the refrigerator here. And it's been in the refrigerator for a long, long time now. It's says, best if used before June 22nd of 2026. Okay, so this is.

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh, you know.

[John Moe]

Andrew. Andrew.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah.

[John Moe]

Do you know where this came from?

[Andrew Walsh]

Okay, your nut pod.

[John Moe]

All mine. Do you know where the nut pod came from? Andrew, the guy is a nut pod. A nut bar. Do you know where this came from?

[Andrew Walsh]

Can I have a head? Because I feel like. I feel like I could potentially guess this. This isn't totally.

[John Moe]

You could absolutely guess this. So, okay, the first question is, let's do this. I'm really dying to have some coffee. Okay, so the first thing is, should I do the nut Pod or should I do the half and half?

[Andrew Walsh]

Do you have any niblets that you can just think in there? No, of course. Well, it kind of depends. Unless you tell me that you got that non dairy creamer someplace. Sus obviously use that because it is, it still has six months to its use by date and it's not dairy so it's less.

[John Moe]

And to be honest with you, it's 10 calories per serving.

[Andrew Walsh]

I love almond milk.

[John Moe]

My half and half is 40 calories per serving. So if I'm just trying to, if I'm just trying to look smacks here. If I'm just trying to slenderize.

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh my God. You read that piece, right?

[John Moe]

Oh, the clavicular piece. Oh, Andrew, I knew all about clavicular long before that piece, my friend. But yes, I did read that piece.

[Andrew Walsh]

You had mentioned look smacking on the show before several times and then yeah, I did end up reading most of that. Yeah, I don't, I don't think I finished it. I couldn't quite stomach it.

[John Moe]

I've been talking to, well, a handful of people about clavicular who found out about him through that New York Times piece and it's like, I don't know how to explain it other than like I just am so terminally online and I spend so much time on TikTok and just kind of like it's not exactly the dark web, but it might as well be just kind of like I don't watch that guy. He is for people that don't know, sort of, you know, I guess the latest sort of incel figure. Although that's not technically his message of involuntary celibacy. But it all feels like it's kind of in the same corner of the Internet. He's a young guy who's obsessed with his ratio of his jawline and his shoulders and waist. And his whole idea is look smacking which is just looking what he thinks to be the ideal male through whatever surgical and testosterone related things that you.

[Andrew Walsh]

Need to do, but also just. And throws anything and anybody in life that gets in the way of that just aside like has almost no real human interactions.

[John Moe]

Totally. I mean and, and, and is, you know, it's, it's a all very, very bad and a very, very depressing thing to think about this being popular online. The thing that cracked me up, it's just so dumb. But mogging. Did you get to the part about mogging?

[Andrew Walsh]

I can't remember. Remind me because it does.

[John Moe]

I guess part of his shtick is he as a look Smacks or will then just go stand near people that he thinks are basically not look smacking into that part. It is to basically roast the person who just looks like a normal person instead of how he looks.

[Andrew Walsh]

This is during his streams, right? Because he goes out on the street and I haven't. I'm not familiar with the content. I haven't watched it, but I haven't.

[John Moe]

Either, for the record. Like, I'm not, like, I'm not streaming or whatever you'd call it, like a clavicular session.

[Andrew Walsh]

But for folks who didn't read the piece or don't know what the hell we're talking about, this guy, obviously he's also like an influencer. That's his main thing. They claim that he makes like, what, $100,000 a week or something like that. And what he does is the content that he produces is him going out on the street almost doing person on the street interviews and interactions and stuff like that. And just live streams it for something like five or six hours a day, they claim. And then they chop it up into little clips that can then go viral as they live on their own in TikTok. But it is a live stream. And so I got the impression that this mogging is something that he just sort of does in cadence with his live streaming. He'll just. Is that right? He just walks up to normies and lets the camera catch them both? Yes.

[John Moe]

And I think. And I hadn't seen that. I wasn't aware of that, but until I was reading the description of it in the Times piece. But it was this idea that, like, in his mind and in his world, he's so handsome that if he stands next to a less handsome person, it's a burn on the less handsome person.

[Andrew Walsh]

I gotta say, I don't mean to make it so personal, but, like, I do sometimes get the impression that Bingo does that to me. And I kind of hate it. Like, I like it when he comes and hangs out with me, but there are times where he'll come and sit right next to. To me and then look at Genevieve. Like, look at this potato next to me.

[John Moe]

Well, Andrew, you could fight back against it or you could monetize it. Have you thought about that?

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh, your button doesn't work. There it is.

[John Moe]

I must have switched this thing off without even realizing it. Remember, this is the one that a listener sent me that has an on off switch so the battery doesn't die, which is great. I must have had the safety on. Had the safety on. Old Betsy here.

[Andrew Walsh]

Wait A second, though. So where did you get to the creamer? You're going to give me a hint as to where you got.

[John Moe]

Okay. But first I'm going to just use.

[Andrew Walsh]

The almond milk because again, I'm going to use dairy and it's within its proper window.

[John Moe]

I'm going to use the nut pod. The nut pod.

[Andrew Walsh]

The nut pod.

[John Moe]

And then I'm going to tell you that this did arrive. This was shipped to me, and it was part of an assortment of things. It was. Well, yeah, I'll call it an assortment. What's a minimum number for an assortment?

[Andrew Walsh]

Three, Ideally four, but I guess I would. Four.

[John Moe]

I feel like it might have been three. Three.

[Andrew Walsh]

Well, let me.

[John Moe]

It might have been one thing. And then this nut pod and then some literature. Andrew, that's kind of a hint.

[Andrew Walsh]

Okay. Oh, I. I know. I know where it came from. But I will make my guess in a second. I'm going to. I'm retracting my opinion on. I'm sorry, whatever the hell. We were just talking about assortments. Assortments. Because I feel like if you get. If you hand me a box of chocolates and there are three different kinds of chocolates in there, I think it's totally fine to say it's an assortment of chocolates.

[John Moe]

Ok.

[Andrew Walsh]

There are two. You would just say there's some caramel and some pure chocolate or something.

[John Moe]

Here's what we can agree on. Two is not an assortment.

[Andrew Walsh]

No, it is a couple, though.

[John Moe]

Yeah, it's a couple. A few is a few very different than an assortment. It's interesting how one more. Yeah, one more chocolate. And now we're in assortment territory.

[Andrew Walsh]

Can you imagine if somebody gave you something and said, here, I got you an assortment of chocolate, and it was just two different kinds? You'd be so pissed. They'd be like, well, I still give you free chocolate. You're like, I don't care.

[John Moe]

From a linguistic standpoint, I'd be mad. You know, I'd be like, when have you ever heard of an assortment of Toothache?

[Andrew Walsh]

I was listening to a podcast about a jazz record because that's the point of middle age I'm in now. And I have never actually listened to the show before, but I've been curious about it for a while. And they'll break down a single jazz record. I can't even remember the name of the podcast, but I was listening to them break down a Sonny Rollins record. And they had done a lot of chatting before they got to the record. And then, of course, Genevieve walks in the Room. Like, the only thing I would assume that Genevieve hates more than jazz is a podcast about jazz.

[John Moe]

Talking about jazz.

[Andrew Walsh]

I honestly soared. It was. I was cooking in the kitchen and she was in the other room, and she wasn't supposed to come in. And I honestly think I would have been slightly less embarrassed if I had been like, watching some sort of, like, risque content or something. Because, like, her walking. Like, you sort of. You see and hear yourself when somebody else walks into a room, you suddenly realize what you're doing. Suddenly the emperor has no jazz clothes, and, like, Genevieve walks in and they're just starting to break down. Like, they call everybody cats, by the way. Oh, boy. Yeah. And she was in the room and they referred to somebody as a cat. And I was like, don't say that in front of Genevieve. And then they said something about a song. Not. Not like a bridge, as in a part of a song, but like, they mentioned, like, maybe an album being a literal bridge in Sonny Rollins career or something like that. Genevieve just said, oh, literally a bridge, and walked out of the room. Anyway. Should have been watching Silk Stockings. I know where you got that.

[John Moe]

You have a guest.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah. You got that from Wes at PETA.

[John Moe]

I got that from our boy Wes at PETA.

[Andrew Walsh]

I was just telling V's all about our Wes story on after these messages last night and about the. You know how I have this theory that that organization is using and maybe other PR firms as well.

[John Moe]

I don't think it's a theory. I think it's the case. I think it's what's happening.

[Andrew Walsh]

Are using, like, automatic transcripts of podcasts because we don't provide a transcript of TBTL officially, but a lot of platforms just automatically create them now, which is really great. And I think that PETA is just going around scanning or putting out an alert for any text where podcasters are talking about PETA or their whole thing about feeding two birds with one scone instead of killing two birds with one stone or whatever. And I wondered if me mentioning all of this on after these messages will trigger a response from web.

[John Moe]

That's. Oh, I didn't even think about that. That's a really great little kind of. I don't experiment. Yeah, I'll look forward now. Of course this is going to end up on Wes's radar because now we're talking about PETA once again.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yes.

[John Moe]

But by the way, that's. I. I think that the nut pods showed up when they sent me the Feed two birds with one scone mug. And then because I was vocal about really wanting one of those Rat Pack hats.

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh, did they send you a second one or they. Yeah, they sent you a second package.

[John Moe]

Wes sent me a Rat Pack hat.

[Andrew Walsh]

Wow.

[John Moe]

I love it. I wear it today. I'm wearing my Burbs hat.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah.

[John Moe]

I feel like the Burbs is back in the discourse. You know, they rebooted it.

[Andrew Walsh]

I did. I'm sort of. Genevieve wants to watch it. I don't watch that much, like kind of streaming television style shows anyway. I don't know what to call it in 2026. So I don't know if that would be the one that gets me to sit down in front of the tv. I am a little curious, but I also, you know, I don't want to be like, you ruined my childhood thing. I don't care that they rebooted it. I just don't know if I. It just holds such a warm, fuzzy feeling in my memory that I don't know if I need a new adaptation of the Burbs.

[John Moe]

See, the thing for me is I also probably won't watch it because I don't know, I've got a lot going on. Andrew. I'm a very busy person. But also, I didn't understand the movie the Burbs when I watched it. I thought it was weird.

[Andrew Walsh]

It is weird.

[John Moe]

When I was, you know, I don't know how old I was when that came out, but basically I was like, I like Tom Hanks in things. And so. And there's a new movie called the Burbs and it's got Tom Hanks in it. Therefore, I mean, I'm guessing had he already done Big by this time or had he already, like. I just remember seeing that movie. Maybe Peter and I like renting it, you know, like from Craigen's Pharmacy and expecting it to be just, I don't know, a straightforward comedy. And it was anything but. Now I wonder if I watched it in adulthood if I would have a very different read on it. Much like the book Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. I wonder if, like, if I watched it now, I would really dig it. But there's nothing sacred about the movie the Burbs for me because all my memory of it is being a kid and being confused.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah, I remember maybe being a little confused the first time I saw it, but liking it and being really surprised at how it ends up. By the way, I don't want to. I don't want to spoil it for people who haven't seen 1989's the Burbs. I'm trying to also put this.

[John Moe]

That's when it came out.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah, 89. But I'm trying to figure out like kind of where that fits. You asked me a question about where it fits into.

[John Moe]

I'll do Tom Hanks IMDb.

[Andrew Walsh]

Let's see here. By 86 he's done the Money Pit. In 86 he did drag the Money Pit big is what you asked about in 88. And then 89 comes the burbs and Turner and Hooch. You might even say two sides of the same Tom Hanks coin, I would assume. I don't know if I've seen Turner and Hooch all the way through, but yeah, the Burbs is a dude dark ass movie. And who's the. Oh, darn it, Luke. Who's the crazy old guy in Bruce Dern. Bruce Nightmares in that.

[John Moe]

Well, I, you know this. Andrew, you talk on the show and we are going to get to Nuggets Talk here in a minute. Don't you worry. Or nibbly.

[Andrew Walsh]

Maybe we, maybe we've just. We've done the intro. We can do.

[John Moe]

Here's my review of this nut pods, almond and coconut creamer. A French vanilla flavor. It's.

[Andrew Walsh]

I give.

[John Moe]

It's better than not having anything added to my coffee. But it's not for me as it's not scratching the itch of like non curdled half and half in my coffee. That's still. I was really hoping honestly. For one thing I'm looking down into this actually.

[Andrew Walsh]

I.

[John Moe]

This is this. I think maybe Addie got me this coffee cup. It's peanuts. It says I feel strangely confident today.

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh yeah. And what do you call that kind of a milk.

[John Moe]

Is it called a milk like milk glass or. Yeah, milk glass. I think is what kind of.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah. The mug that Luke is drinking out of his 80s. Yeah. Yeah.

[John Moe]

But I think that I just learned this because our friend broadcast Barry is apparently picking me up some milk glass coffee cups in China. Or he did.

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh nice.

[John Moe]

Yeah. We have a very special relationship, Andrew that involves me sending him photos of a pillow that has embroidered on it. Do I look like I fly coach? So we're communicating at a different frequency than you and him are. And he's retrieving things from China for me now. But. But I thought they were called milk glass because you put milk in them. But it's because they're white.

[Andrew Walsh]

It's that almost. Not quite but almost translucent white milky, you know, what would otherwise be ceramic. Yeah, I hadn't. I haven't seen that in a long time, but that brings back memories too. And it's got that kind of classic old font too.

[John Moe]

I really like the cup now I'm looking at the coffee. The problem for me right now is that the, the nut Pod creamer is, it's sort of, it's separated in there, right? Like it's, it's, it's not bad. It didn't go bad, but it doesn't like when you mix in a little bit. I know you're not a half and half in your coffee person, but for those of us who are, there is this like perfect ratio of like you get just enough half and half in there and then the color of the coffee changes a bit and then you kind of have. Everyone has their little, like, what they want the copy to look like to tell them that the ratio is correct.

[Andrew Walsh]

And like the cop holding the little scale up to Peter Griffin's face to figure out whether or not he should arrest him. Are you familiar with that anti racist meme? It's from an episode of Family Guy. Obviously Peter Griffin is pulled over. I don't know if I've ever seen the episode, but it's a meme that goes around a lot because basically I believe the cop is holding up some sort of a color scale that goes from light to dark and then comparing it to Peter Griffin, Peter Griffin's skin color to decide how to approach this situation.

[John Moe]

Well, it just looks like, it's very hard to describe. But what it's, you know, what it actually looks like is when, if you do pour half and half that is a little bit past its prime, that is a little bit curdled into a cup of coffee. It's just all kind of like it's separated. It's not all one thing. And that's sort of what the nut pods is doing, even though it's, it's, it's not spoiled.

[Andrew Walsh]

See, I, I love almond milk myself, but I don't use it as creamer either. I don't know if I've ever even. So while I don't drink cream in coffee, I make coffee or I kind of. I'm like the poor man's barista over at my volunteer gig. So I'm always like, you know, and I'm paying attention. Like you said, you're watching for the color. I know certain customers like their coffee with more cream or what have you. I love almond milk in my cereal, but also I was a little concerned about the fact that you said that's flavored as well, like, are you tasting too much vanilla? I don't think you need extra flavoring.

[John Moe]

Flavoring. In fact, when I. Even with, like, if I put almond milk in my cereal, I. I like the almond milk that has a little flavor kick to it. A little vanilla, a little something going on there.

[Andrew Walsh]

So I don't hate it. I just thought that maybe it would be much for you in your coffee anyway. Okay. Go ahead, Luke.

[John Moe]

All I was going to say to wrap up our conversation about the burbs and about this hat is that I bought it because I just thought it was funny because it's kind of like, you know, my name is. And I said I bought it. I bought one for each of my brothers. I kind of had this fantasy that we would all be wearing them together for some reason at, like, a family hangout. That is not. I don't know if they like the hats as much as I did, but I don't know anything about the movie. And it's sort of like, in the way that you are concerned about wearing a hat for a team, that you don't feel like you have enough knowledge around. Like, someone's gonna be like, ask you a question about that team, and you're gonna see him. Like, I'm doing that exact thing wearing this hat that says the burbs. Cause other than Tom Hanks is in it, I could tell you almost like, I didn't even really know that, you know, Bruce Dern was. Was the old coot in it or something.

[Andrew Walsh]

I believe he plays, like, an ex military guy who's pretty aggressive. And one of the Coreys is in it. I get all the Corey confused. And I don't think his performance is amazing. What is the book on him? Like, I'm not even joking. This is such a dumb conversation to have. But, like, what is the Corey Feldman? Is he the kid who ended up kind of growing up to do Michael Jackson impressions? Or is Corey.

[John Moe]

Okay, that's Feldman. So there's Corey Haim, who passed.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah, okay.

[John Moe]

And had a lot of substance issues. Then there's Corey Feldman, who has embarked on what I think is a kind of a fascinating thing, really, which is he has always thought of his maybe true passion as music. And he has been playing, you know, these. I get the sense that they're, like, pretty elaborate and pretty, like, long concerts. He's constantly touring his band. I think it's like Corey Feldman and Corey's Angels or something. I think the backup band is called Corey's Angels. And he sometimes is dressed kind of in the style of Michael Jackson. He has a lot of really, like, kind of interesting dance moves that he's kind of invented. The music doesn't. It doesn't seem to me to be particularly great, but he's been doing this for, like, I don't know, maybe going on 20 years now or something, to where he's sort of built up a cult following for it. And I. My sense is it's a lot of people who kind of go. Maybe started off going as a lark, like, hey, the. You know, the. The child star, Corey Feldman's got a band. And it's kind of weird and it's kind of not good, but it seems that now, like, it's. He sort of willed this into being kind of a thing, you know what I mean?

[Andrew Walsh]

Which is.

[John Moe]

Which is interesting because I could see somebody trying to launch a music career and it just flames out, or somebody launching a music career and it goes great. This is somehow in a liminal. Some liminal space of, like, it's not great, but somehow he's still doing it and has continued to do it. It is so dedicated to it that it's almost like he sort of just. He just willed it into existence.

[Andrew Walsh]

Is Macaulay Culkin still doing his band, too?

[John Moe]

I don't know. What I do know is that Macaulay Culkin was supposed to be doing his podcast either right before. Right after ours at the Thing festival. And then I think Macaulay Culkin is also having. I don't know if it's a resurgence. I feel like he just got a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.

[Andrew Walsh]

And, like, I feel like he just got a star. Is there a waiting period? Like, he should have gotten one when he was a kid.

[John Moe]

He got. Well, what was notable about it was a. That it was in the last year or two, and Catherine o', Hara, you know, was one of the people who spoke and she spoke very lovingly and eloquently about him. And a lot of people are kind of revisiting that now that she's passed away. But, yeah, it was not that long ago. And I kind of wonder, like, what is the deal with Macaulay Culkin these days? Because obviously, huge, huge child star. I know he was in. Was it Party Monster? There was a kind of a movie, I think, about a murder that went down in the, like, New York sort of rave scene. And I think he was in that. But it's like, you don't see him in a lot of stuff now, but I don't know if that's because he's not being cast, or he might have just decided he doesn't want to act anymore. Also, is he financially set enough to not act? I don't know that. I don't.

[Andrew Walsh]

The.

[John Moe]

I don't know the economics of being Macaulay Culkin at this point. Did he make so much money from those movies that he never has to work again? Does he do cons, like, you know, conventions? I don't really know. But what I know is that, yeah, he was on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. I think he also might have received some kind of another award recently where. I don't think it was an Oscar, or maybe it was a Golden Globe, or maybe it was an honorary Golden Globe. He just. I feel like there's been, like. Macaulay Culkin has been showing up places, and everyone's been really happy about it lately. And that's interesting to me.

[Andrew Walsh]

I think that there's a long time where we hadn't heard from him, and then, you know, I don't know, a while back, I don't know, in the next. I don't know, in the past 10 years or something, he would pop up every now and then, like with this band thing, which is very much not for me. It was some sort of parody thing called. Yeah.

[John Moe]

Was it like a cat or something?

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah, something like that. And he plays kazoo or something. It's definitely not for me, but I do like that.

[John Moe]

I don't know.

[Andrew Walsh]

I always get concerned about child actors and who they will become and the outside forces on them, even if they were successful as kids. But what can that do to a person growing up in that atmosphere? And he seems like whenever he has popped up, even if he's doing something that's not for me, he seems relatively well adjusted and has a decent take on himself, my feeling. And of course, his brother is huge now, which is acting so crazy that.

[John Moe]

His brother has an Oscar.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah, right. Did he get that for the. The movie where they go to real pain. A real pain. Yeah.

[John Moe]

Yeah.

[Andrew Walsh]

So anyway, why.

[John Moe]

He seems to be. He's married. He's his. His wife. I think her name is Brenda Song. I think she is like a performer. She might have been like, a Disney Channel person in her own right. They've got a family. Things seem to be going just fine for him, you know? So go Macaulay Culkin, as it were. Okay.

[Andrew Walsh]

Okay.

[John Moe]

Now, Andrew, we finally, 28 minutes later, we've arrived at your favorite part of.

[Andrew Walsh]

The show, the Dazzlers.

[John Moe]

We was hoping for some razzle Dazzle. Razzle dazzle. That's right, man. Razzle dazzle. On your mark. On your mark.

[Paula Poundstone]

Get set, get set now.

[Andrew Walsh]

Ready?

[John Moe]

Ready. Go, everybody. Razzle dazzle. All right, let's thank those dazzling donors before we get to Niblet Talk. In fact, this Niblet Talk is brought to you by Madeline Kanai, who's in Golden Valley, Minnesota. Kanai, pronounced like the Hawaiian island of Lanai.

[Andrew Walsh]

That's pretty good. I guess it. You have to definitely know how to say Lanai. Yeah.

[John Moe]

You know, I don't know if you heard it in my voice when I said. When I was. It's funny. I said Madeline Canai with great confidence because I had read that little pronouncer, and then when I arrived at the word lanai, I thought, wait, am I saying that right?

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh, speaking of saying things with confidence, and I don't want to get into a fight on Madeline's time here, but there was something you said during the show yesterday that, like, really threw me for a loop, and I had to fact check it later. I'm sorry.

[John Moe]

Oh, no.

[Andrew Walsh]

But the current. The newspaper is out of D.C. oh, it is? Yeah.

[John Moe]

It must have happened.

[Andrew Walsh]

It was.

[John Moe]

Well, I was interviewed by somebody in the Current, and they were in Minnesota, so. Yeah, that just made me think that the paper was also based there. But, yeah, the D.C. would make a.

[Andrew Walsh]

Lot more sense, because I remember, I. I know that they aren't. They are not.

[John Moe]

I'm sorry you even left that in the show because that was the most confusing. Not just because I was wrong.

[Andrew Walsh]

I'll be honest with you. If I. If I had looked it up before posting, I would have stripped that out, because I'm not looking to. To, like, you make either one of us sound wrong more.

[John Moe]

I just thought it was so boring. We're going, like, which it's like a who's on first? But, like, so much more boring. Like, you mean the current, the radio. No, the current, the paper. No, that are both based in Minnesota anyway.

[Andrew Walsh]

And they're not.

[John Moe]

Sorry.

[Andrew Walsh]

One is American University. Anyway, Madeline, I'm sorry for that fight, and we had to get it out of our system so that we have now nothing but love for your message.

[John Moe]

Yeah. Honestly, I consider Madeline having built a bridge, kind of like in that jazz.

[Andrew Walsh]

Podcast literally you were listening to. Literally built a bridge.

[John Moe]

She was able to build a bridge here between you and I so that we can really kind of focus on the task at hand, which is reading Madeline's message. Cobros, you make the world a kinder place. For this middle aged mom type. I love you all so much and I'm thankful for your diligence in spreading positivity, light humor, light and humor every weekday. We all need those things more than ever now here in the Twin Cities. My family and I moved to Minnesota just months ago from New Jersey and having your voices in my earpods has given me the comfort that I needed during the stressful process of selling, buying and moving homes. You especially helped me get through the days of driving our three dogs, three chickens and our 13 year old son August to our new home. The tens community is full of gems and we feel lucky to have you in our lives. I look forward to meeting my fellow Minnesotans when we start to thaw out in the spring. Thank you again Cobros. What you do is so important. Aw, that's a really nice message and like that's pretty exciting, Madeline, that you and the whole brood have relocated. That's a big move to go from New Jersey to Golden Valley, Minnesota with.

[Andrew Walsh]

Three chickens in tow. My hope is that August was wearing like a straw hat and overalls with like one shoulder strap sort of like not quite fastened. Right. Wait, maybe that makes him a member of tlc. Am I trying to make him a farmer or a member of tlc? I'm not exactly sure.

[John Moe]

It depends on. Yeah, A lot of it has to do with the straps.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yes.

[John Moe]

Does he have both straps? If both shoulder straps. He's in Little House on the Prairie and if he has one, he's considering but then deciding against chasing waterfalls.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yes, I am.

[John Moe]

Andrew, I don't want to seem distracted here as I was reading, reading Madeline's message, but I am. Do you see what I'm doing here?

[Andrew Walsh]

I don't mean to seem distracted here as I pick up my binoculars and start looking out the window at something that is unrelated to the business at hand.

[John Moe]

There is a giant pod of black dolphins. No kidding, Swimming in the Columbia river right now. I have never seen anything like this.

[Andrew Walsh]

Have you heard of black dolphins before? Or you just.

[John Moe]

I mean, they're either the smallest orcas I've ever seen and I don't think they come down here. Or they are. They're not like the normal gray color of. Maybe they're porpoise. I don't know the difference really. You know, think about the color of like Flipper the dolphin. Right?

[Andrew Walsh]

Gray. Yes.

[John Moe]

They're not that color. They're. They're darker, they're black. But they're like. I was seeing this kind of just like. I don't know what you'd call it, like a wave pattern out there that's really unusual. And. And I thought, is that just the wind on the river or whatever? And then it just kept happening and then I got eyes on it and it is this massive school of these porpoises or dolphins. And I can tell because they're all coming out of the water, right? They're doing that thing where they're like not breaching so much, but you can just see their backs. That's how I know it's not, I don't know, a really large salmon. And they are just going nuts out there. And I am totally and completely blown away by that because I didn't know that was a thing that happened in this river. So sorry for that little allusion to something that nobody listening to this could see. But I just, I need to share that with you, Andrew, because I'm kind of having my mind. And now there's like, oh, this is so interesting, Andrew. Giant. Giant, like flock of seagulls. Not the 1980s band who ran so far away. But what's happening is now there's a giant flock of seagulls that's now descending on the water where the dolphins were doing their thing because my guess is they were chasing fish and maybe the fish were jumping to get away from the dolphins. And now all of these seagulls are flying in to try to get the fish who've been brought to the surface. It's a friggin David Attenborough film happening out here right now. And. And I'm under qualified to be describing it. So anyway, let's just. Let's get back to the. Let's get back to the real work of tbtl Andrew, which is the donors and nibletalk maestro.

[Andrew Walsh]

Okay. Damn it. I was trying to get. I ran so far away. I wanted to swap out the music. If you had just like two more seconds and I could have had this queued up.

[John Moe]

Oh, believe me, all I want to do is stare at these. I promise you, this song has like a 48 minute intro before they even get to the. Get to the meat of the matter.

[Andrew Walsh]

Well, you can just start. This is our donor music for our second donor. I just wanted it ready for mice. And I was like literally like two to three seconds behind it. For some reason, Spotify took an extra second to open, which is another reason I should move over to Tidal according to.

[John Moe]

I hate Spotify so much, Andrew. So very much. But I use it because it's, you know, now where all of my Saved stuff is my little playlist. I saw a really interesting thing the other day about basically why music criticism kind of doesn't really matter anymore. And basically the story was Pitchfork is going behind a paywall now.

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh, really? Wow.

[John Moe]

So somebody was using it kind of as a moment to talk about music criticism and how, like, it used to be obviously a pretty big deal, whether it was Rolling Stone or wherever you would get your. Because what was happening is you would be maybe thinking, hey, should I go spend 20 bucks on this CD, like.

[Andrew Walsh]

Going to see a movie? Is it worth it?

[John Moe]

You'd read a review that says, hey, this album is great, but because that's not how you experience music anymore, music is now free. We're not free, but we stream it. So you pay the money to Spotify and then you get all of the music. So you don't. You're not like, hey, should I invest in this cd? And so that has rendered it pretty much meaningless. But what's filled in the void a little bit is music reaction. I don't know if you see this stuff on TikTok, but now the move is somebody listens to fill in the blank music for the first time. And you watch them experiencing the music. Usually there's somebody already has some kind of social media following. So you see them listening to whatever for the first time and kind of vibing with it. That's now. That's now more popular than music criticism. It's music reactionism.

[Andrew Walsh]

And you mean that those reactions are for new music? Because I know that trend of, like, hey, somebody who's like. Like, I don't know, 20 years younger than us listens to a classic night.

[John Moe]

Something for the first time.

[Andrew Walsh]

You're not talking about that. You mean like more of, like, modern? Like, what's going on in the culture?

[John Moe]

Maybe that's sort of where, I guess the like. Maybe that's where the analysis breaks down. Because I still think that's mostly people reacting to things that are older as opposed to, like, so and so. I have seen it before where it's like, so and so reacts to the new whatever, but it is more of a nostalgia play or more of a. Like, this person's never heard Michael McDonald before.

[Andrew Walsh]

Right, right. Kind of thing. You know, this child's never seen a rotary phone before.

[John Moe]

Yes, yes, exactly. We also have to thank Beth Wright of Seattle, Washington. Beth Wright, not wrong. Beth was helping with the pronouncer, which I appreciate that Beth says heaps and heaps of thanks to Luke and Andrew and John for wrangling this community of thoughtful and caring tens tbtl is a favorite part of my day, especially in these times when things around us seem to be spinning out of control. This year, I'd like to hear the drop of the Australian twins. Oh, Finish each other's sentences. Both the tape and Luke and Andrew saying r nar nar to each other always makes me laugh. What you do is so important. Do you have that tape?

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah, I'm sorry I didn't have it ready, but I'll have it ready here in one second.

[John Moe]

I'll give a little context.

[Andrew Walsh]

Flock a seagull song this was a.

[John Moe]

Crazy story that came out of Australia where there was actually, like, a kind of a violent incident. Somebody was running around with, like, a weapon or something. And these two, these. These twin sisters, I want to say it might have even been their mother had confronted the person. They were relaying a story that they had heard about this kind of incident that was going on in. And by the way, we found out much more about these sisters. They, like, work at some sort of a. Like they work at some sort of a facility that's for, like, sea rescue or something.

[Andrew Walsh]

No, that's right. Yeah. Good memory.

[John Moe]

Like, they have some other. They run some kind of an operation. I don't know if it's a. It's an animal rescue of some kind they're involved in. And their whole. This is a thing. They've been in the news before because they finish each other's sentences. They have just spent so much time together and they're twins that like, that they. That they. This is just how they talk. Like, one of them starts a sentence and the other one finishes it. They just so happen to be two people who were close to this kind of violent event and then were called upon to, like, react to it. But this isn't the first time they've been in the media for their unique speech patterns.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah. Now, the version that I have on hand is the parody version that you and I kind of. I think we're doing an imitation of an imitation when we're say r nar and I'll play that in a moment.

[John Moe]

Wait, the parody version. We did a parody version of them.

[Andrew Walsh]

Pardon me. When you and I say r gnar. We're more imitating the two young women on TikTok who did an imitation of these original twins.

[John Moe]

Oh, oh, oh.

[Andrew Walsh]

So I'm gonna play for you a little bit of the original twins, and then I'm gon play for you what I find to be very, very charming, which is the two comedians who then do an imitation of these two women. And I think that when you and I say r nar, we're more mocking or not mocking, we're sort of more parodying the comedians. But here are the real people. Bridget and Paula Powers.

[Paula Poundstone]

They're with our mum. And he went up there and he was coming back down towards us and he goes, run, he's got a gun. And our heart started to pound and I said, well, Mum, where's Mum? And poor Mum was stuck up there. But apparently our brave mum, she goes, are you all right? Because he had all blood all over his face. And he goes, I will shoot you. She goes, hey, I'm here to help. And Mum distracted him to make him look the other way. And he looked the other way. And Mama ran into the bush behind the fence. And the guy goes to her, I'll find you and I'll shoot you.

[Andrew Walsh]

So you will be unsurprised to hear they are wearing the same exact outfit, which seemed to be like some sort of almost like scrubs, like blue scrubs with little bunnies all over them. It might have been around Easter. And that was the original folks. Here's the tiktokers where they say, rnr.

[Unidentified Guest]

We were up on Steve Irwin Way, and all of a sudden we thought, run, he's got a gun. Where's our mum? This ain't no fun. And our heart started to pound faster than a kangaroo hopping through the bush. And our poor mum was stuck up in a tree like a koala bear munching on eucalyptus because he had blood all over his face. And he goes, I'll shoot you. And Mum was distracting him to make him look the other way. Kind of like the toilets here, they swell the other direction. And he looks the other way. And mom ran into the bush behind the fence and he goes, I'll find yer and I'll shoot yer. And we went, r nar that rnar.

[Andrew Walsh]

I can't say oh, no in regular conversation anymore. So I try to only say it around veeves because it always comes out r gnarly.

[John Moe]

By the way, the backstory on them. They're known as the Twinnies. It's Paula and Bridget Powers. They're known as the Twinnies in Australia. And I do think the pair met Steve Irwin in a chance encounter after helping a green sea turtle who had been stranded on a beach. After the meeting, he offered them a job at the Australia Zoo. Their rescue organization, established in the late 1990s, focused on rehabilitating injured seabirds such as pelicans, kookaburras, and darters with thousands of birds. Da ba da ba da. Anyway, so, yeah, that's the story on them, and that's a. I forgot that there was the people doing the impression of them.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yes, that's where the R and R comes from.

[John Moe]

I'm also speaking of, you know, naturalism, Andrew, and the natural world. While we've been talking, I've also been trying to figure out what I was just seeing in the Columbia River. And it's crazy because there are no reports of there of, like, dolphins swimming in the Columbia river or really of porpoises. There are some. Apparently there are some harbor porpoises that stick around, sort of like the area where the Pacific Ocean kind of meets the river. But, like, I swear to God, you saw me looking through those binoculars, I was looking at multiple pods of what looked to me to be like, dolphin kind of things. You know, they had the little fin and they were doing the thing where they're going up and down. Did I just hallucinate something? Am I a cryptozoologist now? What am I see. What in the heck was I just seeing out there that apparently doesn't exist?

[Andrew Walsh]

I didn't want to say anything, but as you were using your binoculars, I was looking at the back end of the binoculars because you're sort of facing the camera, and I see that somebody has taped two little pictures over the lenses. And I think maybe. I think you were stereo opticoning. I think right there.

[John Moe]

I got completely. I got completely pranked. Well, listen, Beth, thank you so much for supporting the show. What you do is so important as a listener and as somebody who's helping with the finances of this thing. So thank you to Beth and to Madeline for being our dazzling donors today.

[Andrew Walsh]

Hello and welcome to Top Story.

[John Moe]

All right, let's talk niblets. The Seattle Times today. I think it was originally a New York Times article, but it was, let's see, written by. Oh, it's our friend Alexandra Petrie.

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh, formerly at the Washington Post.

[John Moe]

So she's at the Times now, I guess.

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh, interesting. Good for her.

[John Moe]

We love her coverage of Things. Headline, boneless wings are still wings. A judge rules. In an opinion heavy on chicken puns, a district court judge ruled Tuesday that the boneless wings at Buffalo Wild Wings could indeed be called wings. The order in a lawsuit filed by a Chicago man in 2023 was dripping with skepticism at the claims that the chain was misleading consumers about its boneless wings. The judge was John Tharp Jr. Of the district court for the Northern District of Illinois dismissed the claim brought by Amen Haleem, saying it had, quote, no meat on its bones. Despite his best efforts, Haleem did not, quote, drum up enough factual allegations to state a claim, end quote, Tharp said in his ruling. Now, let's just take a quick moment there, Andrew, to. I don't know if this is starting at the interesting part of the story or not for you, but I do not like it when judges take part in wordplay, however trivial the issue. I do not like it when judges try to be funny with puns.

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh, I couldn't agree more. Is straight to jail. Straight to jail.

[John Moe]

Straight to jail with you, sir. Disbarred.

[Andrew Walsh]

I.

[John Moe]

With. With prejudice. No, wait. Yeah, with prejudice. Meaning we're not reopening the case.

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh, is that what that means?

[John Moe]

Well, yeah. I got to remember this, you know, I've been wrong about a lot of things lately. So when charges are dismissed. When charges are dismissed with prejudice, it means they can never be brought again where they're dismissed without prejudice. I believe it leaves the door open for the charges to be refiled at some point.

[Andrew Walsh]

Well, anyway, I'm with you. I don't have much more to say other than to double down on what you're saying. I mean, I find it. I don't like this ruling. Spoiler alert on my opinion on the ruling. Oh, you don't like the ruling. But also, it really. And again, it's not about some sort of fake outrage like, I love this food and you're disrespecting it. This has nothing to do with anything even regarding that. But I actually think it is an interesting issue. I think it's quasi serious, and I think that this is bullshit. The judge acting like the worst, like, news writer at some sort of newspaper that's down to two employees, and they're just a frigate on the seas of bad blogs and they have to fill some daily quota. So they write about the sausage festival and they try to put as many puns in there as possible. That's bad enough when it's coming from so called journalists. Let's keep that out of the courts.

[John Moe]

I actually thought the judge made an Okay. I thought the judge's logic in it was fairly strong. So this is what the guy who brought the complaint, this is Mr. Haleem. He said he bought boneless wings from a B dubs in Mount Prospect, Illinois, in January of 2023. He thought he was buying chicken wings that had been deboned. I'm going to be honest, with you, Andrew. I think for this whole time, when I've ever heard boneless chicken wings, I think I also kind of assumed that was the case. Although if you think about it for two seconds, that's so obviously not what's going on here. It's a chicken tender type of deal.

[Andrew Walsh]

So it's usually a piece of thigh. And honestly, if we haven't talked about this on this show, we've talked about it on other shows, and this is something that's been literally adjudicated before. Like, and that's why I kind of know a little bit about it. It's kind of like they're taking thigh meat, cutting it up, preparing it, and then calling it boneless wings.

[John Moe]

In this case, they're saying it's breast meat.

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh. Or breast meat. Okay. Yep. Sometimes.

[John Moe]

Haleem sued Buffalo Wild Wings, saying the chain deceived its customers by labeling its products as boneless wings when the chain instead uses breast meat, which is cheaper. Boy, this is the first I was learning, by the way, the breast meat is cheaper than the bone meat. I would think that the bone. But I mean, the whole invention of. Of Buffalo wings was because the story goes anyway, that, you know, Pete's Anchor Bar in Buffalo, New York, somebody said, well, this chicken wings are like, there's no use for them. Nobody wants to eat them. It's too much work. And they're cheap. We got to figure out something to do with them. And that was the. Isn't that your understanding of the origin of the buffalo wing? Back then, it was like there was. It was cheap because nobody wanted them.

[Andrew Walsh]

That sounds right to me. I think that's the origin story. But, you know, our taste in these things then change a lot, too. Like, I'm gonna be making a. Just a little spoiler on my argument here as I approach the bench, but I'll allow it. I'll make an analogy later in my arguments to cuts of beef and how they're different. But it's like back in the day, I'm pretty sure I have this, like, ribeye steaks.

[John Moe]

Ribeye steak.

[Andrew Walsh]

Those, I think, used to be, like. I think my grandfather's generation were kind of like rib eye. That's like too much fat. Like, that's not the good cut. But then, you know, here in 2026, that's my preferred cut because, you know, I like the marbled fat or whatever. So I think our kind of taste in these things change.

[John Moe]

Yeah. Yeah, I could see that. So this guy Halim's point is that. Or his. I Guess allegation, if you will, was that that these. He was not getting deboned chicken wings. He was getting breast meat. And he would not have bought these boneless wings. I mean, for other things. Like, no offense, but this guy's truly got to get a life. Like, this is, you know, this is the kind of lawsuit I feel that you bring when you're dealing with some other kind of emotional and maybe I wouldn't say mental issues, but, like, this feels like displacement to me. This feels like something is not going great for this guy, maybe in some other areas of his life. So this is where he's taking it.

[Andrew Walsh]

Out or I mean, I kind of assume with cases like this because I hate the way it sort of has to be told. Like so and so made this argument like he was a consumer who was lied to or something. It's like he doesn't really care that much. I always think it's somebody who actually wants industry standards on this, whether it's a law firm or whatever. So they get the person. Because you need a person to say that they are damaged in some way. So it could be that.

[John Moe]

Right? He was the test case. He was the cause.

[Andrew Walsh]

I would take it up if they wanted me. If they wanted me to be the face of this. I would say, I love this because here's. Here's my deal. Here's my deal. If you go to a restaurant and like, we were just talking about steak. If you go to a restaurant and you order a ribeye steak and they bring out a filet mignon or I don't know, or let's just even say it's like, I don't know, really the prices of steak that well. But like, let's say you order an expensive cut of steak and they bring out a different cut of steak that is a lesser value. You can't do that. You're ordering a specific cut. A wing is a wing. I don't understand why you can call a breast a wing. And. Because wouldn't you think this lawsuit would be different if somebody was suing like some sort of a, let's say, upscale steakhouse chain?

[John Moe]

Totally. Yes. If I ordered a filet mignon and they brought out some like, you know, some sort of. Again, I'm also the worst person to be weigh in on, like, what the less great cut of steak is. Yes, you're right. If somebody ordered. How about this better example? If somebody ordered caviar, somebody ordered $1,000 thing of caviar, and then they just brought out some, like, weird Salmon eggs that they just, you know, were whatever a dollar, you'd be like, well, of course, you can't say it's one thing and then bring out another thing. Buffalo Wild wings disputed the claim, saying that the context clues make it clear that the nuggets cannot be made of wing meat and that the wing refers to the style of cooking, not a chicken's body part. In his order, the judge sided with Buffalo wild wings, saying a reasonable consumer would not think that boneless wings were made of wing meat. What do you think of that argument?

[Andrew Walsh]

I think it's total bullshit. I don't think that a wing describes how something is. I think a wing describes the part of the animal. It's quite literal. Like a breast is a part of an animal. A leg is a part of an animal. A wing is a part of an animal. The way it is prepared is buffalo style. You could say buffalo style. And the thing is, we also have other words for this because you might be thinking, and I don't know if you are or not. Well, we can call them chicken fingers. And nobody is confused by that. But we also know that chicken fingers don't. I mean, I guess chickens do have claws. I will actually sometimes buy chicken feet for like. Like stock or something like that. But like, that one, I feel like nobody really thinks it's a finger because nobody is selling fingers, but people are selling wings. It is a part of a. It is part of the chicken. And I can also prepare wings differently. I often do. You know, like a. Wings are now a part of food, and they're very different. They are dark meat, breast is white meat. It's a different cut of meat. And a wing does not describe a style of cooking. If I go to the grocery store right now, I can buy a bag of raw chicken wings. They're not cooked, but they're wings because that is the part of the chicken they are. The way it is described is by. This is a buffalo style thing. Call them niblets, call them chicken smileys, like in that Portlandia skit we played the other day. Make up some, and I'll even throw fingers in there as well, because it's kind of ridiculous. But if you think that that undermines my argument, then throw that one out too. Don't call them fingers if you don't want. But, like, there's a million different. You can call these things, but don't call them a part of the chicken that they're not. I'm really curious about this, and it pisses me off that not only did they get it wrong, but they're like, the judge is just kind of like being cutesy with his copy.

[John Moe]

Now, one other thing, which I don't think this is going to carry much weight with you. The judge said, okay, if the plaintiff is right, then reasonable consumers would think that cauliflower wings are made at least in part from wing meat. He said, but they don't. Because, of course, we all know if there was like a cauliflower, buffalo style cauliflower wings, we know that it's cauliflower that's going to be breaded and cooked in the style of, like a buffalo wing. But. But people don't think that it has wing in it. So therefore, the judge continued on with this idea that, like, people are not legitimately confused about this, but then people.

[Andrew Walsh]

Should call them wings. I'm looking at that wing place that I used to go to, or I went to a couple of times and became a. Became a topic on the show because they don't accept cash or something. I wanted to make sure that they. Oh, yeah, no, no, they do accept cash, but they charge extra for using a credit card. So I wanted to make sure they accepted cash. It doesn't matter. But they serve some sort of a cauliflower. Oh, here it is. Under a section called not wings. You can get cauliflower that is tossed in a sauce. Like, I don't know what places are calling them cauliflower wings, but I would probably eliminate that language too. And if a lawsuit ended up saying, okay, we're not calling these things wings anymore, but, like, I don't think a lot of places are calling them cauliflower wings. I might be out of the loop here, but, like, you can call them something else. The preparation is the buffalo style.

[John Moe]

What I was surprised by was that they said in this article it's not the first time boneless chicken wings have caused legal action and other drama. The Ohio Supreme Court ruled in July of 2024 that a man who ordered boneless wings should have expected the possibility of bones. So this is a. This is like really flipping the script on this. This guy was suing because he said that he was injured by a bone fragment that was in his boneless chicken wings. So whatever it was breast meat, thigh meat, whatever the origins of the meat was, they allegedly didn't get all the bones out. So he's eating what he thinks is a boneless product and then he says, injured by a bone fragment. But the Ohio Supreme Court basically sided with whoever made the boneless wings, saying the guy should have still understood there was a possibility of bones. Then in 2020, a man in Lincoln, Nebraska, delivered a passionate plea to his city council to remove the name Boneless Wings from the menus in the city. Now, that's your guy, Andrew, right there. That's a freedom fighter for the cause that you're supporting here. It's just get rid of the name altogether because it's. It's misleading again. I was surprised at how often boneless wings are making it into the courts of this country. I think also. And by the way, you make a very good argument, Andrew. I'm not disagreeing with you. It's clear you have passion around this. And I think some of that is because, first of all, I don't eat a lot of chicken wings anymore just because I don't eat a lot of that stuff. But even in the days when I ate lots of meat, I was not particularly drawn towards wings. I would have them sometimes, you know, Camaro Kevin. I would go to Wing Dome or whatever. Most of that was an excuse for me to drink whiskey and have a beer with my friend. But, like, you talk about, like, I know that it's a treat for you that you enjoy. Like, if the football game's happening and you're doing Freezer Feast, you'll get wings sometimes. Is that right? Or whatever. Like, you. I think you just. This is a space that you play in a lot. So you've got thoughts on this?

[Andrew Walsh]

Well, yes and no. That's why I didn't want to. I didn't want this to be like, I really like this food. And so therefore, like, yeah, I'm not. Undermines your argument. Some sort of a ketchup on hot dogs thing. Because the thing is, I don't mess around with what you would call boneless wings or chicken nibblers or whatever. Like, if I'm getting wings, I'm getting wings, you know, like, for me, that's the irony. It's just a logic.

[John Moe]

I will go boneless.

[Andrew Walsh]

It's just a logic argument to me. Like, I just don't. This does not apply to other meats. I don't understand how you can take a cut of meat, serve it, brand it as something else, deliver it, and then the court is just going to cheekily, like, have fun with it and say, oh, everybody knows. No, they're different cuts of meat and where is the line? Then I honestly think, like, somebody should maybe. I mean, I don't know. I don't. I guess you got to find a steakhouse that's disingenuous. I don't know. I feel like this can be challenged just on a logic level. This just drives me crazy on a logic level. I would feel the same way if it was about like some sort of cottage cheese product.

[John Moe]

Uh huh, Sure. I think that the next project for TBTL is to get you elevated to an. An Obergefell level candidate for some kind of Supreme Court precedent setting sort of case.

[Andrew Walsh]

I do wonder if this conversation sort of negates my ability to do that or, you know, kind of takes me out of the running. Because in, in court they could play this conversation and prove that I was just out to make a point, not that I was actually injured. Also, they now know that I don't order boneless wings, as they call them. Right.

[John Moe]

Yeah. I wonder if you've invalidated yourself from being the kind of like, ideal. The ideal, you know, like what? Litigant for this kind of a thing?

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah.

[John Moe]

I was also then just trying to look up and I wanted to like I was trying to figure out who Obergefell was. In the case of Obergefell versus Hodges, I wanted to make sure Obergefell was the good person. I think they were. Obergefell vs Hodges is a landmark decision of the United States Supreme Court which ruled that the fundamental right to marry is guaranteed to same sex couples by both the due process clause and the equal protection clause. But let's see. I don't know. I don't know who was who. You would be the good person. You'd be the person on the side of justice in this case, Andrew, is my point.

[Andrew Walsh]

I thought you were looking up the litigant in this case to see, let's see. Amen.

[John Moe]

He does, by the way. He's not out of options. He can file an appeal in this case based on some other kind of technicality. So we may not have heard the last of Mr. Haleem and you know, you could maybe start a GoFundMe for him or something, Andrew.

[Andrew Walsh]

Absolutely. Or a character witness. Absolutely.

[John Moe]

I have a question for you, which is have you watched the show the Other Two on hbo? I know you've pulled audio from it. We started with some tape yesterday from there talking about Bagel Bites, which was living in my head. Well, here's what happened to me last night. I was supposed to be reading books for Livewire Prep, which I did for a couple of hours, but then I decided instead I should watch some television because I was very excited about the debut of this new show on hbo. In fact, HBO got me to Re sign up for their bullshit to watch this show called Neighbors, which is. It's a documentary style series about like truly unhinged disputes between neighbors.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah, it's been. Every time I open up hbo, it pushes that hard on me and it gives always me just the ide idea of that show gives me an anxiety attack.

[John Moe]

It's weird. What. What kind of.

[Andrew Walsh]

Was that an 1111 text you were just sending?

[John Moe]

It was okay, I was getting one. I. It was weird. It's weird to me what kind of anxiety producing television I like and don't like. There's certain kind of reality television that like, it's just like, oh God, it's so uncomfortable. I wouldn't want to be in that situation. I don't want to watch people in that situation. And then there's ones that like, I just for some reason, inexplicable reason, feel differently. And this is one of those. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know why neighbor disputes in Montana don't stress me out to watch. I think it was from one of the producers. It's not a safdie brother, but it was also somebody with. The first I saw of this, I remember that they were like from the producer of Whatever. And it was one of those kinds of things that I tend to like. I can't remember what show or what kind of cinematic universe, but it was like. Like a person who was already kind of like, okay by me based on. And they knew that very much, I think when they were like using that person as the bait. They're like a certain kind of. Luke will like this. And I will say that the show is actually shot in a very interesting, artful way for being one of these kinds of shows. There's this one scene so that there's two big disputes happening in the first episode. One is out in Montana where you've got these two neighbors. You know, they're in very rural Montana, but there's a dispute over some land that everyone has always kind of used to get to some other land. It's a road, but this one guy technically owns it now and he's put a gate up so people can't get to their horses. And it's just kind of. So that's one dispute. And the thing is everybody in that dispute is all kind of like. They're all kind of equally. I don't want to say bad, but like, it's like, who am I rooting for here? Is it the. Am I rooting for the. What's the. What's the conspiracy theory, the super crazy one where goes one. We all, you know the. Oh, you do know about it. It's the thing that brought Marjorie. Marjorie Taylor Green in QAnon.

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh, he's just QAnon writ large.

[John Moe]

Okay, yeah, there's a QAnon. It's like, am I rooting for the QAnon guy or the guy who's just maga.

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh, sure.

[John Moe]

You know what I mean?

[Andrew Walsh]

It's like there's nobody.

[John Moe]

There's nobody who's kind of great in it as far as like their politics and their whatever. I'm trying to figure out who I.

[Andrew Walsh]

Who I.

[John Moe]

Who I'm rooting for in this. And then they cut to the other. The other thing was in Florida, some big dispute over this, like, over this beach. So you've got all these people that own these multi million dollar homes and the beaches in front of their house are technically private. And then there's this little sliver of public beach and there's all this fight about, you know, where a chair can be on the beach if it's technically going over into private land. And the private people have like hired this weird dude who just wanders around the beach. Beach yelling at people about their beach chairs being slightly onto the private beach.

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh, I could do that job.

[John Moe]

And then you have this, you have this guy who's I think, the most interesting character in the entire kind of story, which is he is a former Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He's a former Mormon. He and his wife, I think, or girlfriend, they were. They were in the Mormon Church. And then he soured on that whole thing. And so he started going in and secretly filming like Mormon rituals that you're not supposed to do. And he became like, his thing is just. He's a First Amendment advocate. That's how he styles himself. And what he just does is he just shows up in places with like 11 selfie cameras strapped to himself. And he's just filming and filming and filming. And people always get mad at him because they're like, what are you filming here? And he's always like, I'm allowed to be here. Like, it could be anything. Like, his deal is he goes to places and it's not ideological in any particular way. He's not trying to solve any universal problem. He's just trying to stand in places with all these cameras on and then get yelled at and then yell at the people and they film the whole, the whole part of him on the beach yelling. He's yelling at the Guy who's going around telling people they're on the private beach. That's this guy's whole move. But they film the whole thing. I think he has, like, a crazy fisheye camera lens on top of him or something, or it's just an editing effect they do. But I almost just want you to watch this, like, four minutes, Andrew, because from a cinematography standpoint, it's one of the most interesting things I've ever seen. It's like, it keeps switching from perspectives of, like, this weird overhead shot where his head is all big and his body is all tiny. And then it's like, cuts to his camera and then cuts to, like, the camera that somebody else has on him and then cuts back to this other one. It's just visually really stunning the way they put it together.

[Andrew Walsh]

The little trailer that they always play when you open up HBO is very stunning. I will say that. That's why I was like, ooh, what's this? And then I read the description. I'm oop. And for that, I'm out.

[John Moe]

Not for that. Not for you, huh?

[Andrew Walsh]

Anyway, kind of any kind of reality stuff, especially if it's got confrontation built into it. No, thank you.

[John Moe]

Now, the. I mean, yes, it is reality and definitely has confrontation built in. And I will say this too. Like, I found it really entertaining. I'm definitely going to keep watching because it reminds me almost of, like, it's. Yes, it's about the confrontation, but the way it's constructed reminds me a little bit of, like, American movies. Like, you know, which we play a lot of audio on this show. That's the story of Mark Borchardt trying to make a horror film in Wisconsin where it's.

[Andrew Walsh]

The.

[John Moe]

The quirkiness of the characters is really highlighted. It's not just pure, like, everyone's just yelling at each other all the time. It's actually mostly. Not that it's mostly a dive into the lives of these people who have clearly taken something much too seriously and then kind of what their life looks like. Like, when they're not standing on a property line yelling at someone, but rather are home on their computer trying to figure out who left a comment or making a salad with their family. And you know what I mean? Like, it's. It's really a sort of a. It's a character study about people more than it's a show about people yelling. Yelling at each other over lines of property. That being said, there was a couple things that I was like, well, this was very much staged for the show. Like, anyway, now it's not now. Now, here's the thing. It's not. Not that they're putting words in people's mouths, but the people in Montana, there is this. There is this moment where they're actually involved in some sort of a civil case. And the judge orders that there is a mediator who is supposed to come out and try to basically mediate between these two groups of people who are mad about this gate and this horse pasture. That's the other thing, too. Not to get into the details of a show you haven't watched, but the guy who's a YouTuber and he's really into the shire and stuff, he kind of makes old weapons, like weapons that would have been in Loader, which by the way, powerful Walt Burbank vibrations.

[Andrew Walsh]

He.

[John Moe]

He's the one that moved out there with his family and eventually erected this fence and is very mad that these horses, these beautiful. Andrew. Wild horses, kind of semi wild horses that are owned by these other people will come and be like, in the pasture that he technically owns. And it's like, I've never seen anything more beautiful than these horses running in a pasture. And it's like this guy is growing crops out there, just scrub land, and he hates it so much that he gets on his ATV and like, scares the horses off of his property, which the other people are alleging is illegal. You're not allowed to scare horses with a motorized vehicle in Montana or something, is their contention. But it's like, hear that? That's when people. The nut pod. It's working. I feel myself the change is coming, Andrew. But like that I like. I can't think of anything that would be more relaxing to watch out on your undeveloped Montana land than horses running wild and free, even if they're a little bit technically coming on to your area. It's not like he has a thing going there that they're messing up. He just owns all this, you know, acres and acres and acres of land that he's not doing anything with. And I would seem like horses would be the best case scenario out there, but he's like, they're just pests because he's so mad at them. He's so mad about what he feels like is him being disrespected did that. It's made him. It's made him hate the sight of beautiful wild horses.

[Andrew Walsh]

Maybe the show sounds more like a cautionary tale for me too. Maybe a reason I shouldn't watch it because I get so. I get so in my head about, like, you know, Cars being parked rudely and how it's disrespectful.

[John Moe]

Well, that's what I'm saying. I mean, listen, I'm not telling you what to watch, Andrew, but does make one consider that if you're ever in a sort of a real intense feeling about something, that it could be about other stuff. I mean, definitely, all of the people that are in this have lost grit, have lost touch with kind of reality at this point, and they're just in the fight for the sake of the fight now, as opposed to whatever the original kind of jumping off point was. But what they do with the mediation, this is where I was like, okay, this is. They. They definitely staged this to be this way. The mediator that comes out, he drives out on his Harley, and they've, of course, got this whole, like, shot of him coming down this country road on his Harley. And then where they make. They make the two families meet. This mediator not in an office, not in a room somewhere in town or some kind of neutral site. It's. I mean, I guess it's technically a neutral site, but it's one of the fields. And the mediator is sitting on his Harley, and they have to come stand on either side of his Harley and talk. And I was like, well, that's not. Listen, sadly, I've been involved in some mediations in my life, Andrew. That doesn't go down with someone sitting on a Harley. No, that's never the place where the important mediation of a legal. Civil legal matter is going down. It's never somebody on a Harley. So they clearly did that just for the optics of me.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah, that's ridiculous. You did ask me before if I've seen the other two, and yes, I have seen. It's really good. In fact, the fact that you hadn't seen it, I think, think illuminates something that you told me before the. The show yesterday. Had you never seen the other two before?

[John Moe]

Well, I thought I had seen some of it. And so what happened was after I got on watching Neighbors on hbo, I then was in the HBO universe and was like, let's see, what else. Oh, because what they're doing with this neighbor show, by the way, is they're dishing it out on a weekly basis. You know, they're not. They're not. I guess that's HBO's thing, right? They don't. They don't let you binge. So I was kind of like, well, that was 29 minutes, and now what am I supposed to do with the rest of My night. So I was clicking around and I. And I saw the other two and I was still buzzing off of how funny that intro is that we played on. Was it yesterday's show?

[Andrew Walsh]

I think it was. Yeah. Yeah. Bagel Bites tv.

[John Moe]

And I was like, I have a. I mean, I have a sense of what I thought the show was, which is I knew it was about basically, like, if you were the siblings of like, a Justin Bieber, like, and you kind of had your own hopes and dreams, but now they were sort of eclipsed by this wild success of your younger sibling, what would that look like? And maybe I just watched clips of it because I did not. I had never watched an episode of that show from beginning to end. But I was going crazy last night. Like, I was reaching out to family members going, do you have hbo? Max? Let me share my password with you. Like, I feel like we. Other than playing the audio from. And by the way, maybe we talked about this and I totally forgot about it. But, like, I think I'm three episodes in now. I think it might be one of the funniest, most well written shows about Internet culture that I could.

[Andrew Walsh]

I.

[John Moe]

That I can remember. It is truly hilarious to me. And there are so. And also it helps that I was for a while kind of a wannabe actor type. So the whole audition culture of that world is something that I'm keyed in on. But, like, it's so, so funny. I feel like it should have gotten so much more attention when it came out.

[Andrew Walsh]

It's funny now. Keep in mind, I haven't seen this. I think I watched maybe the first season when it was fresher, and I think it went on to do more seasons. So I'm not trying to make it sound like this is super top of mind for me, but what I liked about the show was that it wasn't as cliche as you would think. If you're making a show that is sort of about a Justin Bieber type, but really more about what does that do to the people around him and his family? What the other two refers to here, his siblings. In other words, when you have a super, super, super famous kid in the family, the other kids are the other two. And they have their, you know, they have their own careers that they're working on. And as you mentioned, one of them is an aspiring actor, but he's, like, trying to do other jobs while he's trying to land roles, while his little brother is super, super famous. But what I love, and you sort of mentioned when we were playing that tape yesterday that you thought it was really funny how the main character. Not the main character, but in that piece of tape, Chase Dreams is like, everything's good. I actually really like the fact that he's not a toxic little snot. He's a totally, really sweet guy. And I think that makes the show so much more, first of all, watchable, but also interesting. And Molly Shannon is great in this. I mean, you kind of forget that. Molly Shannon, it's a really, really great role. And she is a loving mom. She's not like, she's not just a stage mom, you know what I mean? But there's part of that in her character. I just think that there's a lot more depth to these characters than you would expect from a show if you were just to describe this premise.

[John Moe]

No, you're absolutely right. Like, it's. It's. There's. Every time you think it's just going to go with the most archetypal character, like, this is the bad person, this is the good person, this is the dumb person, this is the smart person. It always veers just a little bit, or there's just kind of a moment of humanity from that them. And everyone just seems so perfectly cast in. In the. You know, Ken Marino as a streeter.

[Andrew Walsh]

His agent, he's really broad. He is. He. He's probably the broadest character.

[John Moe]

He's probably the broadest. I'm just, like, such a Ken Marino fan that it's kind of like I. He's sort of doing Ken Marino things in the show, but I'm okay with it. Like, he's constantly doing some medical intervention for this kid. Like, he can't talk. We're dying. His tongue, it's got to be pink. Like, teen girls don't want a gray tongue says about it. He's, like, always doing some weird stuff to this kid. But, like, again, and also just the. Like, maybe because I'm still watching it close enough to when they made. Still feels pretty relevant to me. And the way that they've really. They really captured perfectly a kind of a moment of Internet culture as well. Because, I mean, this. Their little brother Chase Dreams. He is a kind of a creation of Internet culture, really. And so the way that they play that out on phones and stuff, and they have this sort of arranged dating situation that he's gonna be part of with kind of a Zendaya type, and then they have to break up. And just the way that it all is unfolding on social media, like, it's. You could. I mean, Things are evolving so quickly that you could be watching a show that was made two years ago where it feels like the way that they portray the social media version of our world would already be kind of outdated and already look kind of silly. Yeah, it didn't feel that way to me watching it last night.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah. Like, when the Simpsons. I always think it's a mistake when the Simpsons tackle. I guess we've talked about this before. When they tackle, like, a trendy issue of the moment because it takes them so long to get that show out. It already feels old when it comes out, and then it just does not. That's the part of that show that does not stand up as when something is Sue. Except some of them now are so of an era that they're kind of. They've gotten back into the column of funny because they're so specific. Like that wings drop. Not wings. Not the boneless wings, but the drop from that show about the band Wings. I'm just like, oh, I love how this is so 1992.

[John Moe]

Yeah. All that is to say, I am loving this show, and I'm so glad that I stumbled back on it thanks to that intro drop. And then thanks to me paying the home box office company, whatever it is. I'm also. I'm so weird with money. Like, I'm doing the version that has commercials.

[Andrew Walsh]

HBO.

[John Moe]

Yeah.

[Andrew Walsh]

Okay. I want to talk about saving, like.

[John Moe]

$7, but, like, I like. And then I have to watch commercials. It's like, why I spend seven. There's something about whatever the cost was to have no commercials seemed to me to be ridiculous. So I went with the cheaper one. But, like, I just. I waste $7 on a lot of things. Why am I gonna make my experience with HBO worse?

[Andrew Walsh]

It's $7 a month, though, right? So that. That adds up. But, yeah. Well, I live with Genevieve, so we have the k. The HBO with the commercials, and also the Netflix with commercial. And usually that doesn't bother me too much. I'm not usually, you know, if Genevieve and I are playing cards and watching, like, an old movie that I'm half paying attention to when a commercial comes on. It doesn't bother me. But this is. Actually. I was wondering if we would talk about this today or not, because I don't know if it's fully relatable, but I was watching a movie on HBO yesterday, and for the first time, the commercials, like, one of them pissed me off so bad. Like, I yelled at the computer because I was watching something I don't usually watch. And I am very unfamiliar with, like, French New wave cinema, and I think that you're a little bit more into it. I don't know if you took a class or.

[John Moe]

I mean, no, I just dated someone who really liked Band of Outsiders.

[Andrew Walsh]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John Moe]

That's the extent of my knowledge.

[Andrew Walsh]

That's on my list, actually. I downloaded that the other day. I have that. I've also just been like, man, there's so much actually I want to talk to you about. I've been. Because I've heard, totally coincidentally, that some other friends of mine are doing the same thing. And we did not talk about it ahead of time, but I do think there's. There's something about the media landscape that's going on right now that is driving people like me back to bittorrenting and, like, having movies. And I had a. I had a couple of hard drives that I had movies and TV on and I spent over the winter. I spent this project of, like, sort of like reorganizing them and downloading more things and completing some series and collections because things just seem too fleeting these days. Like, we were just putting too much power in the hands of HBO to decide whether or not a movie will be on demand for me tomorrow. And I think that I instinctively started doing this project and then I heard. I don't want to put anybody else on blast in private conversations, but from other people, like husbands of friends of mine who are like, oh, my husband's been doing the same thing. Like, he's been just like, I want to know that this movie or series will be on my hard drive for years to come. And I think unrelated to that, Luke, but do you remember? I'm going to get to my HBO thing in a second here, but do you remember a week or. No, no. I'm sorry, I don't know when I brought it up, but the time was maybe a week after Christmas or so. I needed a new solid state hard drive for this purpose because I sort of sorting all my stuff out. I had an issue with my television. I needed to bounce a bunch of files. So I needed a very large. Like, not even very large these days. I was looking for a 1 terabyte solid state hard drive, external hard drive. I have a few of these things. I knew exactly what I wanted and I went to. I know I drove to five different stores around Seattle and I called a few. Nobody had it. I ended up going to that Office Depot and it looked like they had it on the shelf. But when I took up the empty Box. They said, we don't have this anymore. And I came home and I even went online and I went to the actual manufacturer's website that day, and they were out of them as well. And I was like, it must have just been the Christmas rush, the holiday rush. Have you been following the news on this?

[John Moe]

You mentioned it yesterday that they're getting more expensive.

[Andrew Walsh]

They were getting more expensive. But then yesterday an article was published that said both. It's Western Digital and is it Seagate? The two huge external hard drive manufacturers are sold out for 2026 already. Luke.

[John Moe]

What?

[Andrew Walsh]

It has a lot to do with AI and all of companies needing as much. It happened with RAM and processing power first. I guess, like, RAM sticks were selling out. And for me, I'm like, how is this consumer electronic being sold out because of AI? But we actually even got a note from our friend Lynn Pham about this yesterday. It has to do with just like, they are gobbling up as much storage space for. I don't know if it's for workstations or whatever it is, but people are just like, they. They cannot satiate this beast of AI. And so because of that, I cannot get another hard drive. Like, that's nuts. And basically they're not prioritizing the consumer experience of buying hard drives. I don't know if you're Googling this now.

[John Moe]

I'm looking at a PC Magazine article. AI demand clears out Western Digital's hard drive supply for 2026.

[Andrew Walsh]

Can you believe that?

[John Moe]

So, like, no, I can't.

[Andrew Walsh]

So a few years ago, or like, right around the pandemic, I told a story about how during baseball season, I used to like to go at the beginning of the season, just buy a pack of baseball cards. And then suddenly I found it really hard to find just a pack of baseball cards. And we found out that it was because of this huge trend of people buying up all the cards and doing their openings online. And baseball cards not just being fun anymore, but more of like, it was kind of swept up. Yeah. And it was almost like that whole bitcoiny kind of thing. Like, everybody was obsessed with speculative stuff. And so this is the second time that I just went out to buy something and I couldn't buy it anywhere. And I couldn't figure out what was going on. And I dismissed it until the news story comes out that, no, no, this is a global phenomenon. We can't buy fricking hard drives anymore.

[John Moe]

Now, did you have. Let me try to remember the story. Did you physically have one in your hands? And you decided against it?

[Andrew Walsh]

No, I went to the shelf at Office Depot after having struck one empty, plastic, empty box and I take it to the front and the guy was apologetic. He's like, I don't have it. And at that point, after having chased this all Chase, dreamed this all over town, and then finally had the box in my hand and was like, you guys are my saviors. And then him saying, no, no, this is on the shelf, but we don't actually have it in stock. And I was so bummed about that. So anyway, I just, that I saw that story last night and I was like kind of freaking out about it.

[John Moe]

Well, I think, But I do think you're onto something with, I guess, a certain sort of tech savvy corner of the culture. And also Walt Burbank, which is maybe because of all the, like, you know, depending on what, who, you know, how the content gets resold or licensed or for how long. This idea that like, you know, you could have a. Get your HBO Max subscription, but then something could be on there, but then not on there. And now it's like, now I can't watch it because I gotta. There's. It's landed somewhere else. In fact, when I was clicking around hbo, the way that I ended up on the other two was because they have a whole category called watch every episode as opposed to. And I guess, I guess what that means, that could mean a couple of different things. One is just, just this is not new enough content that we're going to like try to parcel it out week after week. But I took it to mean some of this stuff that's in hbo, that's a series, they don't even have every episode in there. Maybe.

[Andrew Walsh]

Oh, interesting. Oh, I thought it meant that it had all posted already and you could binge it.

[John Moe]

Maybe that's, maybe that's what they mean. I mean, so maybe that undermines my argument. I was going to say, like, it would be annoying if you were subscribing to HBO and there was some series that isn't like one that's actively being released. It's, you know, let's say it's from a couple of years ago ago and it's like they Brit box you.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah.

[John Moe]

Which is like, I mean, I can't overstate what a ripoff I think Britbox is because you, if you're like into that kind of stuff, like my dad is and I sort of am, you can't just go on there and watch kind of what you want. It's sort of the Leftovers of whatever they feel like putting up. And it could be a random season of a show, it could be a random episode, which is not how that episodic TV should work for you. But anyway, my thought with HBO was when I saw Watch every episode, I took that to mean, well, we've got the whole thing here if you want to watch it. Whereas some of the other stuff might not have everything, which would be really annoying if it's the case. But. But I may have kind of misunderstood what the point of that was.

[Andrew Walsh]

But I think even more to the point is when you're scrolling through movies, if I have HBO open, I'm usually looking at movies, and there will be a bunch that'll be flagged that says leaving soon. You know, like, you gotta, like, gamify this idea of like, oh, I gotta get this, because it's leaving, as opposed to just, like, I have my collection, or I can go to Scarecrow video. Okay. So I do want to talk really briefly about this movie that I watched yesterday, because I had no intention of watching this movie. I had not heard of it when I had woken up in the morning. And then I watched it kind of throughout the day in three parts. And I realized I can't stop thinking about it. And that doesn't. And so it's by somebody named Agnes Varda, a filmmaker named Agnes Varda, who I believe is a French filmmaker.

[John Moe]

She.

[Andrew Walsh]

I don't know if you're looking this up. I don't know if she was born in France, but I think she was a French filmmaker and in part of, you know, in like, the 1960s through, I think, the 1980s or something like that. And apparently very, very well respected. You know, I've definitely seen her, like.

[John Moe]

These pictures of her. It's like I was aware of her in the culture, although I couldn't tell you about her movies. But she's very iconic looking.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yes, she is. Yes. And I had not. I do not think I'd ever heard of her before. And again, this. This whole era of film, even though, like, I kind of, you know, during college or whatever, got, quote, unquote, into film, like, I just never got deep enough to this, which, you know, this is an era and style and genre of film that is, you know, celebrated. Right. And I've always felt like, oh, I should get more into it, but I just. I don't know anything about it. But I'm just scrolling through Blue sky yesterday and somebody. I don't. I literally don't even know who it was. Not Somebody I know in real life, sort of vague posted about some movie which I think. And off the top of the dome, I think it's Le Bonheur or something like that. I have no idea how to speak French, but it means happiness basically. And it's from the late 60s and some people described it as a horror movie or a drama. And I realized that people were categorizing it in very strange ways. I really wish I hadn't seen that somebody had called it a horror. Some people categorize it as that. That is a way of interpreting it later. But if anybody's thinking about watching this, get that out of your mind right now. It is not a horror film. There are certain techniques that the camera does that are sort of will be reminiscent maybe of what a horror film does. But I had a short running time. I'm like, what is this person on Blue sky even talking about? I've never heard of this person. And it was one of those things where I had a little bit of downtime. I had prepared my after these messages show, but I wasn't ready to record with Genevieve yet. She was still doing real work. And I was like, well, let me just see what this person is to trying talking about. So I google the movie, I see that it's on hbo, it has a short run time and I'm just like, well, let me just see what this is like a movie about suburban Paris in the 60s. It's got to have some eye candy in it. So I just dial it up on my computer thinking I'm going to watch five minutes. I have no idea what it's about because it's just sort of this very pastoral, slow paced film about a working class family outside of Paris for like, you know, know the first 45 minutes. And it's really beautiful and it really sucks you in. But it's not really about anything. You're just getting to know their lives. And then it essentially ends up being about infidelity and then how that sort of all works out. But the style of filmmaking, I mean, first of all, it is so incredibly beautiful. I'm watching it most of the time thinking it was literally 15 minutes till the end. I'm like, when is the big thing going to happen? Like when is the. Some small things have happened, but when almost every the last 15 minutes of the film, maybe even the last 10 minutes, define the rest of the film. And there's nothing shocking or super over the top. It's just I can't get this film out of my head. It was just a lark that I looked up in the middle of the day. And I've been thinking. I'm seriously. It was the first thing I thought about when I woke up this morning. Like, I can't get this movie out of my head, and I can't exactly even tell you why. And maybe because of the ambiguity within it. Like, I spent last night reading a bunch of essays about it and everything. And I do think it's about the ambiguity, but to me, it leaves you feeling a little bit cranky and confused, but in a purposeful way. You know what I mean? Not in a way that it's like, I don't know about this movie. I think it's supposed to leave you feeling a little bit confused and I think angry. Although a lot of different people have different interpretations of what she was saying with. With this.

[John Moe]

I'm kind of surprised I'm watching a trailer for it now. I'm surprised it's in color for some reason. Yeah. As I'm hearing the description of it, I'm thinking like, oh, this is going to be black and white. But, yeah, I'm watching it. Just the visuals. The sunflowers.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yes, it is so beautiful.

[John Moe]

Looks really cool. Well, I'm. I will probably check this out.

[Andrew Walsh]

I gotta be careful of the commercials, though. This is what I was gonna say. You're in the middle of this beautiful, slow moving, like, passionate scene, and she does something really cool because color was new then, Luke. She doesn't fade to black between scenes. She fades to red. Sometimes she fades to green. It's really interesting. But then it'll just be fading. And then all of a sudden, it'll be the most modern yell in your face. The one that yelled at me was. I'm not gonna swear because I want to keep it clean today. But you know, what I didn't need was a very sensitive scene just. And. And then right before it fades, suddenly. Howie Mandel.

[John Moe]

Oh, no.

[Andrew Walsh]

Some sort of hormonal. What is the word I'm looking for? He's got Howie Mandel. Howie Mandel.

[John Moe]

He's got hormonal problems.

[Andrew Walsh]

You know how there's a certain. You know, the look of men of a certain age in this day and age who are taking all of the testosterone. Testosterone. Testosterone and hormo.

[John Moe]

And everything else.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yes. And, like, I don't know what's going on with him, but he's still just got. You know, he's wearing mirrored sunglasses, telling me I should play some sort of quiz game on Netflix. But something about going from 1967, France to just suddenly, like, the cheapest, cheapest commercial in my face. I screamed at Howie Mandel. I was serious. I was like, I can't remember ever being so pissed at an ad break.

[John Moe]

That sounds like such a random, rough kind of, you know, record scratch of just, like, the experience you're having of just living in the world of this film. I'm guessing it's a relatively quiet world.

[Luke Burbank]

Yes.

[Andrew Walsh]

So quiet.

[John Moe]

And then. And then. And not just any commercial, but something that's probably, in a lot of cases, not making life actually better for people, which is like people shooting themselves up with a bunch of tea so that they. So their body isn't doing the thing that it's supposed to probably naturally kind of do.

[Andrew Walsh]

Well, if he was advertising something for Netflix, I just think that he's got that look of. It was something. Netflix quiz game that you can interact with. I think it's a reboot of that Internet phenomenon. What was that game everybody was playing online during the pandemic? That was a quiz show. Remember? It was one guy, he would host a quiz show. We could all play it.

[John Moe]

I forget the name of it, but. But then I think there was a crazy story with that, too. I think there was, like, an aftermath of that. Like he quit or got fired or something, and it became a whole kind of a thing. But, yeah, I remember that. I remember everybody was playing some kind of online quiz together for a while. This is complete left field. And we probably need to wrap things up today because I still gotta read the rest of Chuck Klosterman's book. Hey, by the way, we're doing Livewire tomorrow night at the Alberta Rose Theatre. Chuck Klosterman will be there. Annabel Gurwich will be there as well. And it's gonna be a fun night.

[Andrew Walsh]

Maybe Klosterman. This is interesting. A friend of ours was saying Klosterman and I. And Genevieve was like, isn't it? Privately to me, she said, isn't it Klosterman? I thought.

[John Moe]

I always thought that friend of yours was. Right.

[Andrew Walsh]

Right. Okay, good to know. I'll tell Voice.

[John Moe]

And I know this because, well, I've interviewed him before, but also because I've been bouncing between reading the book Football and listening to the audiobook. And he reads the audiobook, and he starts by saying, I'm the writer, Chuck Klosterman. But then it's funny because I've also listened to other interviews with him where they're calling him Klosterman. And I'm like, you Guys, you're embarrassing yourself.

[Andrew Walsh]

Well, I embarrassed myself here on the show today. And also the person who gave me the book is our friend Rachel, who did interview him as well. And so I'm glad because that was my. Kind of my concern. Genevieve was. I, like, I hope she didn't mispronounce his name in the interview, but she clearly was well researched and I was judgy. Yes.

[John Moe]

But anyway, I need to get. I need to finish reading that book before tomorrow night. But all that is to say, I was having. Actually, speaking of Chuck Kloserman, I was listening to an interview with him this morning when I was on the treadmill talking about the book, and he's been doing the round. So he's been on Pablo Torre. He's been in a million places. And so I found one that was the. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but there's a guy, his name is, I think, Ryan Holiday, and he. He's become very well known for stoicism. He's a relatively young guy, very kind of fit guy, and kind of a TED Talkie guy. Although I like him, I think he seems actually measured and smart, and his whole thing is talking about stoics and kind of what we can learn from the idea of stoicism in modern life as a way of kind of emotionally regulating ourselves and just approaching our lives.

[Andrew Walsh]

And.

[John Moe]

And I find a lot of what he talks about to be very compelling. So I'm looking at all the different interviews that Chuck Klosterman has done, and he's done one with this daily stoic podcast. I was like, okay, this will be a good, interesting conversation. And it kind of was, but it started like, so many of these things start, including Pod, Save America, including. I'm trying to think of some other examples of people that I really respect, and I'm not trying to throw anyone under any buses. And I want to also offer the. This. No one's approaching us to do any. I thought of this when you mentioned, like, Howie Mandel looking like a person who's on some kind of a something or other. It's wild to me how many podcasts that I really like and respect also do ads for, like, just kooky, kooky medical. That's unverified. And it's just like, now, again, no one's offering us any money to do this, so it's an easy call. I don't think there's any, you know, if. If somebody was like, here's $100,000 to talk about this thing, I, I'd probably, I would, I would probably find a way to talk myself into feeling okay about it. And I'm not trying to sound judgy about what other podcasters are doing again, particularly in a format that's never been really presented to us much. But it's weird to listen to a podcast where the whole thing is kind of like about stoicism or being or it's about kind of understanding the higher mind and the higher form of life and da da da da. And it's like, let me just tell you about such and such. Hey, it's so and so let me tell you about this supplement and da da da da. And it's going to. And I'm always just like, oh man. Like, you have really kind of done yourself a reputational disservice to me by doing these ads for these things that are kind of unverified and they might do some good stuff, they might not, I don't know. But it's just, it's funny to me that at the end of the day there are so many of these podcasts and again, it's, I guess it's an indication that they are popular enough that the supplement companies want to pay them a bunch of money. But it's just like, it's just funny when a podcast that prides itself on being essentially no bullshit has to start by doing something that strikes me as kind of inherently bullshit.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah. And honestly, like, and I'm not trying to turn this into a pitch, but it's these conversations that we would be having off air as well that is just a reminder of how special our funding mechanism is. There is literally, I'm not saying nobody does as a podcast, the style of podcasting that you and I do in the space. Nobody has the funding model that we have, which is one listener supported and in a way that can, that can support a daily full time podcast, you know, and like, and that is if you and I, it just, we would not be able to do tbtl. We would not be able to get enough of those kinds of ads to support the show if we did not have listener support. Like, we simply wouldn't. Every now and then when we worked for American Public Media, they would suggest some sort of a, you know, an ad for a supplement or something and you and I would say, no, we don't, we don't do that. But we weren't taking money out of our own pockets. We were just saying, apm, you're not getting us to say that stuff. So that you guys can get a tiny bit of revenue, but I just know based on the industry and our particular download numbers and everything, the types of ads that we would have to do, if we had any ads at all, would be really disruptive to the flow of this program. I shudder.

[John Moe]

That Howie Mandel thing.

[Andrew Walsh]

I shudder to think what would happen would be offered and how many of those we would have to do to even earn a nickel. It just would not be sustainable. So I. If you don't mind me, just taking this opportunity to once again thanking our listeners for keeping the show alive, because this is. At this point, at this point, this is the only way TBTL works 100%.

[John Moe]

No, that's actually a really good point. I don't think that that's overly. I don't know, turning this into a sales pitch. But, yeah, you're absolutely right.

[Andrew Walsh]

Right.

[John Moe]

Like, we're a. We just wouldn't. We just don't have enough downloads for the advertising money to be meaningful. And also, you're right. Like, I don't know if you're familiar with the bottom of the barrel, but sometimes you turn the barrel over and there's an area of ground under it that's really dead. It's just brown dirt now with worms.

[Andrew Walsh]

There are worms. Yes. That's where.

[John Moe]

That's. That's. That's who would be coming for us beneath the bottom of the barrel. And meanwhile, we have this crazy thing that's happened where we get to do this show five days a week. It's supported by the list listeners. Even though I have rapidly declining testosterone, that can be fine. That can be okay. A lot of these hosts, they're on. Their testosterone levels are very high, and you can tell. And they're very active and they're living their best life. I'm living my worst life. But that's okay within the context of tbtl.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah, we're the Cryin podcast. We don't consume testosterone. By the way, speaking of worms and this podcast, at some point, will you. Maybe we need more of a. Maybe we need more of a raison d'. Etre. But I've been watching a lot of French films.

[John Moe]

Yeah.

[Andrew Walsh]

A lot of ooh la la. At one point, she did say, one of the characters says, here it is. And to hear her say, voila. But anyway, Paula Poundstone has worms. She loves talking about her worms. Can you just text your friend? Remember, she's had a hole. She talked about on our podcast once, and she talks about on Instagram. She will send people worms. Right. For their Compost. Or she'll send you compost with worms in it. I think it's one of those.

[John Moe]

Andrew, why is my brain so broken? How would I not remember Paula Poundstone telling us about worms?

[Andrew Walsh]

She told us all about this. I believe you. She has videos as well. And sometimes I think about her and her little worms and are you looking up now? Because I know I've played some of her videos before. Paula Poundstone. I'm not wrong about this. I might. What if I'm. What if my brain is broken? But I was just thinking, I would love to have her back on the show to talk more about. Oh, here she is on Tick Tock. She's on Tick Tock.

[John Moe]

Well, I'm sure the listeners would love.

[Paula Poundstone]

People think I'm kidding when I say that I'm a worm farmer. I'm not kidding. Wendell, show my. This is one of my worm bins. There's pro. I don't know. They don't count out that well. There's probably about a thousand worms in there.

[John Moe]

In fact.

[Paula Poundstone]

Fact, if you write to me at Paula, Paula poundstone.com I have for you the how the heck does she do It Package where I send you a pound of worm waste for your garden and a video showing some part of my worm farming process and introducing you to the worm that I name after you. Now, a lot of people think that's fake too. They go like, you can't talk to worms. Worms don't come when they're called. You know what? That's because you're not doing it right. Yes, they do. Watch this.

[Andrew Walsh]

I've seen this.

[Paula Poundstone]

You take a tube like this.

[Andrew Walsh]

She's got a big.

[Paula Poundstone]

And you put it in there tube.

[Andrew Walsh]

She's sticking in the dirt and.

[Paula Poundstone]

Carol, Carol, come on, Carol. Come on, come on. Nada, girl. Come on, Carol. There you go.

[Andrew Walsh]

The worm came up the tube.

[Paula Poundstone]

William, I was calling Carol.

[Andrew Walsh]

Okay. So anyway, yeah. Confirmed that she. She doesn't sell you worms, though. She's sends. Sells you the worm. Mud or waste.

[John Moe]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if, if we talk. I can't. I can't believe you said. We talked about this with her.

[Andrew Walsh]

That's where I learned it. Remember, she came on to talk about the Allen Rickman encounter that she had in the restaurant.

[John Moe]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Walsh]

Okay. So that had gone viral.

[John Moe]

That. I remember that.

[Andrew Walsh]

I remember her story online about that, which I didn't know about. So she, she came on to tell us more about that, which was honestly just one of my favorite episodes. I just remember laughing so hard during that entire episode.

[John Moe]

I'm gonna be back on. Wait, Wait. In, like, two weeks. And who knows? Maybe. Yeah, if the stars align, maybe Paula will be one of the other panelists. I don't know yet, but if not, I'll. I'll reach out to her to see how the worm farm is going.

[Andrew Walsh]

I would really love to have her back on. She seemed game. I mean.

[John Moe]

Oh, yeah, no, she's. Listen, I mean, put a quarter in her. It's like, if you can get. Her thing with Paul is she's always touring, she's always traveling for work.

[Andrew Walsh]

Yeah.

[John Moe]

Sometimes a little bit hard to pin down, but if you get her on phone, you and I essentially can both just slowly back away from the microphone and take the rest of the day off.

[Andrew Walsh]

And she will.

[John Moe]

She will absolutely entertain and delight the listeners.

[Andrew Walsh]

She's the best.

[John Moe]

With minimal input from us. So, anyway. All right, well, that's gonna do it, I think, for today's episode of Old tbtl. But we're gonna be right back here tomorrow with more imaginary radio for all of you, so please, please come on by for that. In the meantime, everybody have a great Wednesday. Stay safe, take care of yourselves, and please remember, no mountain too tall, and.

[Andrew Walsh]

Good luck to all. Power out.