Episode #895: Luke's Authentic Personality

Summary

TBTL: Too Beautiful To Live – Episode #895: Luke's Authentic Personality

Release Date: August 26, 2011
Hosts: Luke Burbank and Jen Flash Andrews
Guest: Dan Ristione

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1. Introduction

In Episode #895 of TBTL: Too Beautiful To Live, hosts Luke Burbank and Jen Flash Andrews delve into the theme of authenticity in broadcasting. The episode sets a reflective tone as Luke shares his experience of attending a radio coaching session aimed at uncovering his true personality behind the on-air persona.

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2. Authenticity in Broadcasting

Luke opens the discussion by admitting, "[02:09] I am, as you're hearing my voice right now, in a fluorescently lit conference room at the Cairo radio station, learning how to get in touch with my, quote, authentic personality." This candid revelation sparks a humorous and honest conversation between Luke and Jen about the challenges of maintaining an authentic self in the world of talk show hosting.

Jen humorously remarks, "[02:33] So you're in an interesting position where you're going to have to make up a fake because you're very authentic, if anything." The duo explores the delicate balance between genuine expression and the constructed personas often adopted by media personalities.

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3. Weekend Plans and Personal Anecdotes

The conversation naturally shifts to their weekend plans, revealing the hosts' diverse interests. Jen mentions her upcoming visit to see Huey Lewis and the News, while Luke plans to attend a Jeff Bridges concert featuring music from the film Crazy Heart. Their lighthearted banter showcases their enduring friendship and varied hobbies.

Luke also shares a personal milestone: "[05:09] I have a trip scheduled for tomorrow, too, which is kind of one of those, like, parenting things that's just kind of mind blowing, which is. I'm taking Addie to visit a college. We're going to Western to look around."

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4. Listener Interaction: Classic Literature Discussion

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to a thoughtful discussion prompted by a listener letter from Crystal, who inquires about classic books every 10-year-old should read. This topic aligns with the backdrop of Banned Books Week, providing a platform for an engaging debate on the relevance and impact of classic literature in modern education.

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5. Guest Interview: Dan Ristione on Classic Books

Dan Ristione, a well-read news editor and friend of the hosts, joins the conversation to offer his insights. When asked about books that left a lasting impression, Dan cites classics like To Kill a Mockingbird and Catcher in the Rye, stating, "[16:49] Dan Ristione: To Kill a Mockingbird."

The hosts and Dan delve into whether certain classics remain relevant for today's youth. Dan passionately defends Catcher in the Rye, arguing, "[17:17] Dan Ristione: If it's not shocking enough for the 21st century, the book isn't about shocking, it's about teenage angst. Does that change? I really don't think so."

Jen offers a contrasting perspective, expressing her critical view of Holden Caulfield's character: "[17:32] Jen Flash Andrews: I just found him kind of whiny and self. Indulgent. Annoying."

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6. The Role of Required Reading in Education

The trio explores the broader implications of mandated reading lists, discussing whether forcing students to engage with challenging texts fosters a deeper appreciation for literature or inadvertently deters them from reading altogether. A listener comment addressed by Jen raises concerns: "[20:25] Another of our listeners, his point was that when you force kids to muddle through really difficult text, he's worried that it turns them off of reading like forever. That it could be like lasting damage."

Dan counters this by emphasizing the subconscious benefits of exposure to complex narratives: "[20:42] Dan Ristione: ...if you can't communicate, if you can't write, you're going to have a hard time in this world. So even if the intricacies of Moby Dick get by you, you still pick up something underneath the surface."

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7. Personal Reading Habits and Recommendations

The conversation shifts to personal anecdotes about reading habits and favorite literature. Jen shares her affinity for Les Misérables, albeit through an abridged version: "[17:49] Jen Flash Andrews: I would say Les Miserables. ...the version I read had probably 200 pages in the Paris sewers."

Luke reflects on his own literary journey, recalling his high school reading of Les Misérables and his evolving relationship with literature: "[21:29] Jen Flash Andrews: ...she would just go back and reread these certain pages that she just found so moving. Whenever she was kind of feeling blue, she would just."

Dan discusses his voracious reading habits and the joy of discovering new authors: "[28:30] Dan Ristione: ...if I find a title that's interesting, I'll look, look, the greatest joy in my life is finding an author. I'll find that one book and I'll be like, oh, yeah. And then I'll read through their whole rest of their stuff."

Jen highlights the emotional connection readers can develop with characters, sharing her experience with Peace Like a River: "[32:07] Jen Flash Andrews: ...last year, I read this book by this NPR writer. His name's Leif Enger. It was called 'Peace Like a River.' And I loved that book. ... I slept with it kind of tucked under my arm for days and days."

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8. Conclusion: The Enduring Importance of Reading

As the episode wraps up, Luke synthesizes the discussion by underscoring the timeless value of reading: "[33:23] Luke Burbank: ...if we can remember how much fun it is to actually read a book, then it doesn't feel snobbish. It doesn't feel like work. It's just another fun thing to do."

Dan echoes this sentiment, advocating for reading as a fundamental aspect of personal growth and communication: "[34:11] Dan Ristione: ...the vast majority of American males, they go right to the military history section and read about tanks and stuff like that. The percentage of people that read fiction is much smaller. ... It's worth it."

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of the show's camaraderie and a reminder of their commitment to engaging discussions: "As always, have a great weekend. Until then, no mountain too tall and... Good luck to all."

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Notable Quotes

• Luke Burbank [02:09]: "I am, as you're hearing my voice right now, in a fluorescently lit conference room at the Cairo radio station, learning how to get in touch with my, quote, authentic personality."

• Dan Ristione [17:17]: "If it's not shocking enough for the 21st century, the book isn't about shocking, it's about teenage angst. Does that change? I really don't think so."

• Jen Flash Andrews [20:25]: "Another of our listeners... he's worried that it turns them off of reading like forever. That it could be like lasting damage."

• Dan Ristione [20:42]: "...if you can't communicate, if you can't write, you're going to have a hard time in this world."

• Jen Flash Andrews [32:07]: "I loved that book. ... I slept with it kind of tucked under my arm for days and days."

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Episode Takeaways:

• Authenticity in Media: Exploring the tension between genuine self-expression and constructed personas in broadcasting.

• Literature's Role: Discussing the enduring relevance of classic literature in education and personal growth.

• Personal Growth through Reading: Highlighting how mandated and voluntary reading contribute to communication skills and emotional intelligence.

• Camaraderie and Community: Emphasizing the value of shared interests and discussions in fostering a connected listener community.

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For Listeners: If you’re intrigued by thoughtful conversations on literature, personal authenticity, and the nuances of daily life, Episode #895 offers a rich and engaging experience. Tune in to hear Luke, Jen, and their guest Dan delve deep into topics that resonate both personally and universally.

Transcript

[Luke Burbank]

I feel. I feel. Do you feel alive? I feel.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

I feel happy of myself.

[Luke Burbank]

I feel happy of yourself, too.

[Dan Ristione]

What do you got, any words of wisdom? What about for all the other kids trying to learn how to ride their bike?

[Luke Burbank]

Can you say anything to them? Everybody. I know you can believe in yourself. If you believe in yourself, you will know how to ride a bike. If you don't, you just keep practicing. You will get the hang of it.

[Dan Ristione]

I know it.

[Luke Burbank]

If you. If you keep practicing, you will get the hang of it. And then you can get better and better at it if you do it. Give me some thumbs up. Thumbs up, everybody, for rock and roll. Tbtl. Well, hey there. It's a Friday afternoon edition of tbtl, the show that's probably too beautiful to live. Hey, guys, this is Luke, your host, joined as always by Jen Flash Andrews. Hi, Jennifer.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Hi.

[Luke Burbank]

This is episode 895 in a collector series. And, well, I have to. I have to be honest with everyone. This show is on tape now. I guess if we're being technical about it, every show's on tape. Right?

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Right.

[Luke Burbank]

Because other than the people that watch us live on stickam on the odd occasion when we do a webcast, the show has always been recorded. So maybe I was. That was premature, Jen, for me to share that with people, but I'm.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Well, I don't think you needed to share it as if we were confessing a sin. A sin.

[Luke Burbank]

It's been that kind of week, you know. But I was going to say we're on tape because I am, as you're hearing my voice right now, in a fluorescently lit conference room at the Cairo radio station, learning how to get in touch with my, quote, authentic personality.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Really?

[Luke Burbank]

Yup. The radio show is on tape today.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Have you not been with your authentic personality?

[Luke Burbank]

This is the really funny part. I think maybe there's a thing with talk show hosts where they have a Persona, maybe they have a character that they feel they have to play. And maybe this particular radio coach that we're dealing with today, one of the things he does is help those kinds of hosts get in touch with their authentic personality.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

So you're in an interesting position where you're going to have to make up a fake because you're very authentic, if anything. But if you're going to succeed in this class, you'll have to make up a fake Persona to pretend is your authentic Persona that you have now accessed.

[Luke Burbank]

That's right. I need to take a class called maybe not so much of your authentic personality. That is actually the Course that I need to take. Because if there is one thing I have to say that I've done on this podcast and then on the radio show that I work on now, I'm in touch with the authentic Luke Burbank. That's rarely a good thing.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Yeah, I would say you're very authentic. I. I adore, though, your nut hut personality. And you don't let it shine very often. And this. Oh, man. If you figured out that your actual personality was your nut hut personality, well.

[Luke Burbank]

See, that's another thing. I'm a little. Sometimes when you stare into the void, the void stares back. Maybe what I'll find is that all of this kind of low key, not really traditional radio broadcasting would. What? Not that I do or I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't really sound like a real radio host on a normal basis. Maybe what I'm gonna find out is that was an act and what you.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Really want to be doing is, hey, everybody, it's hump day.

[Luke Burbank]

Exactly. So.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

So Monday might be a shocker for all of us.

[Luke Burbank]

Now. I'm hoping that you are gonna be having more fun Friday afternoon when people are hearing this. Do you have anything going on on Friday? Do you have anything going on this weekend?

[Jen Flash Andrews]

I have a few things.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, you're gonna be in pre Lewis.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

I'm gonna be getting with my heart of rock and roll. I'm gonna be asking a lot of questions, like, is this it? And of course, you know, giving it all up for love. Silver armadillo underneath my pillow.

[Luke Burbank]

Jen, I want to let you know that I'm happy to be stuck with.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

You after all this time. I appreciate that.

[Luke Burbank]

Yup. After 890.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Well, do you believe in love?

[Luke Burbank]

Generally speaking? Yes, Absolutely.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Bad is bad.

[Luke Burbank]

Wow. Wow. Those were a lot of songs that he's done that they've done. Do you think that I could get away with telling people I'm in the news? Because nobody knows the news, right? No one can name any members of the news. People are gonna Google it and then email us and go, I can name the bass player, but generally speaking, nobody could name anyone in the news. And I mean, I couldn't say this to, like, a TBT listener because they know who I am. But to the average American who doesn't know me from Adam. Do you think I could pass for having been a member of the news?

[Jen Flash Andrews]

I think you could pass for being a member of the Pretenders. I mean, there's so many bands where you only know the front person. So I say, sure, go with that.

[Luke Burbank]

I have a trip scheduled for tomorrow, too, which is kind of one of those, like, parenting things that's just kind of mind blowing, which is. I'm taking Addie to visit a college. We're going to Western to look around. Now she has.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

This is going to be one of those classic experiences, too, where she's looking for a different criteria list than you are. Probably.

[Luke Burbank]

Probably. So this will be the second college visit we've been on. The first one was when she was about 10. I took her to Columbia in New York. And I said to her, darling, because I wanted her to get imprinted like a baby chick with this lofty Ivy League aspiration. And we had a really fun day. We walked around. It's a beautiful campus there in Morningside Heights, and we drank some boba tea, which is horrible, and then we poured it out and even the pigeons wouldn't eat it. That has, like, bubbles of what I assume is phlegm. No offense to our boba tea enthusiast listeners. But anyway, we walked around that campus and I said to her, darling, if you get into Columbia, we'll figure out a way to pay for it.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Then you prayed every day that she wouldn't get in.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, then I actually. I had some of the paperwork I'd picked up, and I looked at what the tuition was, and I was like.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Oh, I don't have $35,000 a year.

[Luke Burbank]

You know what? State school's gonna be great. There's a lot of great programs at Western. So anyway, it's crazy, though, because she is now really at about the age that I was when she was born. And there's something about that. I don't know, there's something about, like. I don't remember a lot of my life from being a kid and even a teenager, but the vividly memorable part of my life started at around the age Addie is now. So when I see her and we're doing stuff like visiting colleges and talking about, you know, taking the SATs and all that stuff, it's so. It's so clear to me that, you know, I don't know, it just brings the whole thing into, like, focus for me or something, like how old she is.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Yeah, totally. I remember when I went to visit USC and they. It's so funny how they do this on the tour. They took us to this classroom that had, like, a fireplace, this, like, beautiful antique fireplace, and had this huge conference table that was this beautiful wood, and it had, like, muted lighting. And I was like, I'M going here. I'm going to the school. This is the school I want to go to. And after like my first year, I finally wandered over to see what that classroom was because, you know, I was always in gigantic, huge lecture halls that did not have a fireplace and it was like Philosophy 500. Like, those are the people who get to sit in that room. So why was that on the tour? The room none of us would ever get to see again.

[Luke Burbank]

I also think it's funny how, you know, if you're coming from anywhere else in the country, one of the reasons you want to go to SC is because you want to be where the palm trees are, where it's sunny and beautiful and they take you to a roaring fire.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

But for a girl from Seattle, it was just like, perfect. Sign me up.

[Luke Burbank]

You clearly didn't leave USC and walk around the immediate environs with, with all due respect to Caitlin and our other listeners that attend that proud institution. I mean, actually, you know what, to be honest, that part of that part of LA where it is, isn't, isn't too, too sketchy. You keep heading down Figueroa and then it gets a little. Yeah, a little.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

No, I was never as worried about the sketchy part as just the, the amount of fruit smoothies consumed before 9am was just crazy to me. I was like, what is wrong with these people with the fruit smoothies now.

[Luke Burbank]

If you'd had more fruit smoothie in your life, you might have been able to better battle Keyshawn Johnson in class. I think there was a few times when you guys were going at it where what you needed was a vitamin C boost which you hadn't had your, hadn't had your thing from Smoothie Sam.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

I can't believe that you're gonna go check out a college with your kid. That's just wild.

[Luke Burbank]

I know, I know. It is a, it's a very bizarre thing. We have lots of listeners who are, you know, have kids and stuff. Although I do think that I, as far as our average listener goes, I definitely, my kid is older than most of the, most of our listeners. If they have kids, they might be in the 5 to 10 range. So maybe, you know, I'll tell you guys how it goes. I'll tell you what to watch out for. We are really, we're really tag teaming this Chateau St. Michel situation this weekend. Flash, because you're going on Friday to Huey Lewis in the news. I'm going to see Jeff Bridges on Sunday, play the music of Crazy Heart. So that'll Be fun. And while we're on the subject of Chateau St. Michel, just a reminder, they are also an official sponsor of this show. And when I say an official sponsor, I mean the official sponsor. They're currently the only official sponsor we have, but we like it that way because they're awesome people. If you would like to enjoy some of the fine, fine wines of Chateau St. Michelin, you can pick it up in a store near you. You can actually, if you're in the Northwest, head out to the winery in Woodinville. It's gorgeous. Or you can go online, go to tbtl.net and there is a button there that will put you in touch with their website and you can actually order wine and they will ship it to you. They have all kinds of cool programs. There's something called the Vintage Reserve Club where you can basically pay a little fee and they actually mail you wine on a quarterly basis. And it's this really cool stuff that they're trying or some old stash that they found of, like, amazing wine. They. And you also get first dibs on tickets for things that are sold out. A lot of these concerts this summer sold out in like an instant. So if you were in the vrc, you would get a get first crack at that stuff. So we appreciate Chateau San Michelle's support of this show and we love it when you guys get out there and support them as well. Okay, so it's a Friday. I'm getting in touch with my authentic vision. You, you're putting on a skinny tie, throwing a. I'm trying to think of what Huey Lewis is doing on the COVID of Sport.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Yeah, he's got like a sport jacket.

[Luke Burbank]

Thrown over his head. It makes me think he's got. My memory is that he's got a sport jacket.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

And is there like a billiards table behind him?

[Luke Burbank]

Yes, they're standing. I believe they're standing either in front of or behind a billiards table. That's exactly right. So you're going to be setting that tableau up. I'm doing my thing in the basement of Cairo and we are going to play you some interesting stuff from the TBT archives. Which was a listener letter. Right. That got you thinking about this, Jen?

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Yeah. Crystal wrote in and said, I have a TBTL show idea. What classic books do you think every 10 should read? I'd love to hear your opinion on this. Have a great day, Crystal. And I'm actually not that well read when it comes to classics. I don't feel like. I feel like what I. Mainly the main classics that I read were all through high school and college, but then I kind of felt like I'd done my time.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

And moved on to other.

[Luke Burbank]

Moved on to reading adult books that you don't like. Like.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Right. But I did move into the 1900s at that point, and I kind of felt like I'm not actually going to go backward at this point. I'm. I've done my 1700s, 1800s reading now. Yeah, I'm done. So it reminded me that a couple years ago, we did a why It Matters required reading. And we invited a friend of ours, Dan Restillon, who is a news editor, he's very well read, to come in. And we all talked about the books we were required to read in high school and college, and if they mattered or if they didn't matter, we had kind of a fun, rousing discussion about the classics.

[Luke Burbank]

I'm trying to even. I'm trying to imagine how it was. I even kept my head above water in this conversation because I am not well read.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

You kept it to the 1900s because you basically talked about Catcher in the Rye.

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, okay. Well, that. Now I. Okay, now it's coming back to me. Now that's making more sense. All right, take a listen to this from the TBTL archives. And now the TV exterior boat. Goodbye, masthead. Keep a good eye upon the whale the while I'm gone. We'll talk tomorrow. Tonight, when the white whale lies down there tied by head and tail, he gave the word and still gazing round him, was steadily lowered through the cloven blue air to the deck. In due time the boats were lowered. But as standing in his shellop stern, Ahab just hovered upon the point of the descent. He waved to the mate who held one of the tackle ropes on deck and bade him pause. Starbucks. Starbuck. Sir. For the third time, my soul's ship starts upon this voyage. Starbuck.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Ay, sir, thou will have it so.

[Luke Burbank]

Some ships sail from their ports and ever afterwards are missing. Starbuck.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Truth, sir. Saddest truth.

[Luke Burbank]

Some men die at ebb tide, some at lower water, some at the full of the flood. And I feel now like a billow that's all. Crested comb. Starbuck. A. I am old. Shake hands with me woman. Their hands met, their eyes fastened. Starbucks. Tears or tears the glue.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

O captain, my captain, noble heart. Go not, go not see.

[Dan Ristione]

It's a brave man that weeps.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

How great the agony of persuasion.

[Luke Burbank]

Then lower away. Stand by the crew. In an instant, the boat was pulling round close under the stern.

[Dan Ristione]

The Sharks.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

The.

[Luke Burbank]

The sharks.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Oh, master, my master, come back.

[Luke Burbank]

But Ahab heard nothing, for his own voice was high, lifted then. And the boat leapt on. You're simply the best. Wow. The TBTL players, ladies and gentlemen. Amazing, riveting. You know, look out London's East End. And you know, the non traditional casting of Starbuck as a woman, I think is just. Was a really, really, really amazing and kind of daring decision. Do you agree, Dan Ristione?

[Dan Ristione]

Well, I have to say, Battlestar Galactica did it before you. Ah, Starbucks. Was a woman in the new one. But yes, still daring all the same.

[Luke Burbank]

Yes, quite. So the reason why the TBTL players brought you that very dramatic reading from Moby Dick. And the same reason our good friend Dan Rustion is here. Because tonight, as is our custom on Friday nights, we are asking why it mattered. And this week's topic is books. And more specifically, like assigned reading lists because it's Banned Books Week and we've kind of had a thing that's been percolating here for a little while on the show, which was a while back, I saw an essay by an English teacher basically saying that Catcher in the Rye is not a relevant book anymore for teenagers and that it should not be assigned reading, required reading. In fact, that there were newer, more relevant books that should actually be on the list. And I just put up a simple blog post about it to which there were I think 473,000 comments. It actually shut down mynorthwest.com alright, maybe it was like 15, but that's a lot for us. And so we've been wanting to talk about this. We wanted to find time we could get Dan Rustion in here. So here he is. Welcome to the show, Dan. Hi.

[Dan Ristione]

Thank you, Mr. Luke. Thank you very much.

[Luke Burbank]

First question. A book that you read either in high school and college, that you were forced to read, but that made a huge impression on you?

[Dan Ristione]

To Kill a Mockingbird.

[Luke Burbank]

My kid is reading that right now.

[Dan Ristione]

Does she hate it?

[Luke Burbank]

Well, actually she's about to start reading it, so I don't know if she'll hate it or not.

[Dan Ristione]

No, I mean, come on. I mean, To Kill a Mockingbird. I would also say Catch her in the Rye. And the idea that Catch her in the Rye is no longer relevant. I really have a hard time with that. If it's not shocking enough for the 21st century, the book isn't about shocking, it's about teenage angst. Does that change? I really don't think so.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah, I agree. But I wonder if that's because you and I are guys. And there's something about Holden Caulfield that so kind of speaks to being a disaffected teenage guy. Jen. What? Because you're not so much onto the Catcher in the Rye tip, are you?

[Jen Flash Andrews]

No, I think it is a guy thing because I just found him kind of whiny and self. Indulgent. Annoying.

[Dan Ristione]

Well, very guy thing. Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

So.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, okay, because I'd like to shoot down your hopes and dreams. What was a book that you found really useful that was on the required reading list, so now I can make fun of that.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

I would say Les Miserables.

[Dan Ristione]

Really? That is fantastic. Have you read the unabridged version?

[Jen Flash Andrews]

No.

[Dan Ristione]

Well, yes. And Victor Hugo has been whipping boy for years. You talk to Tom Tangney and he'll tell you Victor Hugo was a hack and all the rest of that. I'm sorry, that's not true. Victor Hugo didn't know when to stop. But he wrote beautiful things. To love another person is to see the face of God. Come on.

[Luke Burbank]

I just can't believe there's an unabridged.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

The version I read had probably 200 pages in the Paris sewers. So I don't know if that was abridged.

[Dan Ristione]

Did you get the Waterloo battle interlude? The long thing about the whole Battle of Waterloo?

[Jen Flash Andrews]

I don't remember that as well as the sewers.

[Dan Ristione]

Yeah, okay. Well, the sewers were important. It was cool. Jean Valjean went through the sewers. It was neat.

[Luke Burbank]

I read that book when I was in high school and I only, about, I don't know, maybe five years ago, learned that his name wasn't Gene Val. Jean, you know how you read a book and you don't know how something's pronounced and you're just saying it wrong in your brain over and over and over?

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Did you also say Javert?

[Luke Burbank]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Dan Ristione]

Don't feel bad. My sister read this book when she was a kid about the. The lion and the mosquito, and she thought it was some kind of Russian hunter. I think she still thinks so.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, hopefully she's listening right now to this fine, fine radio broadcast we like to call tbtl. You know, we put a post up today about required reading, and we got a lot of comments on that, too. And one of the ones that I thought was kind of interesting was from somebody who said that basically great books are wasted on the young. That when you assign kids, let's say, people in high school or maybe early college, when you force them to read stuff that they don't really, at that point have the emotional or literary depth to appreciate that. It just kind of goes over their head and then maybe they never read it again because they think, oh, I read A Tale of Two Cities.

[Dan Ristione]

You know, I think that's. I think that's interesting. And I do think a lot of the required reading does go over kids heads. But you can't escape the fact that in essence, we are monkeys. Monkey see, monkey do. Even if a kid doesn't really appreciate Romeo and Juliet or Victor Hugo or anything like that, it seeps in. There's a level of communication there. There's a way of speaking, a way of telling a story that I think seeps through. I think it's good. I think it's good. If you can't communicate, if you can't write, you're going to have a hard time in this world. So even if the intricacies of Moby Dick get by you, you still pick up something underneath the surface. You can't help it.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Another of our listeners, his point was that when you force kids to muddle through really difficult text, he's worried that it turns them off of reading like forever. That it could be like lasting damage. That was another complaint I heard about it.

[Dan Ristione]

I mean, post literary stress syndrome.

[Luke Burbank]

I know, I know, I know. I guess I feel like if somebody is. I feel like you can't trick someone into having a love for reading.

[Dan Ristione]

No.

[Luke Burbank]

If somebody is already inclined to not like it. Like I really like reading, although I'm not nearly as well read as I should be or would like to be. Because the problem for me at this point in my life is that every day I read all these newspapers and all these magazines. You have to. So I have almost. I don't know, I need to be better about. I need to watch less. Fewer reruns of Mama's House, which is.

[Dan Ristione]

Actually, I think, based on a Victor Hugo novel.

[Luke Burbank]

Yes, yes, Les Mama's House. And I needed to spend more time reading. But anyway, I completely lost my train of thought, which is probably a result of not reading enough. It's probably where that comes from.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Losing your train of thought.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. Don't you think? I'm saying I don't exercise my brain enough? But anyway, my point is that I'm somebody who really liked reading from a young age. And even though I read some really, I was forced to read some kind of hard stuff, it didn't put me off. And I think somebody who gets easily dissuaded from reading because they had to read one hard book is probably not somebody who's going to be that into it anyway. That's what I'm trying to say.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Another thing that I was thinking about today with required reading is that as an adult, like, one of the books I was required to read was Great Expectations, and I loved it. And it was a fantastic experience as an adult. A few years ago, I sat down to read A Tale of Two Cities, and I wasn't disciplined enough. I didn't do it. And so I know that as adults, we have so much going on, and we don't. We're not being forced to do it. And so I had to realize I probably will never read A Tale of Two Cities. Thank God. I had to read some Dickinson High School.

[Dan Ristione]

See, now that's interesting. Now that that goes counter to that idea of post literary stress syndrome, perhaps. This is a muscle that needs flexing, and if you don't flex it earlier enough, you're not going to get it back. Because God knows there are a million distractions and a million things in this life as an adult that will keep you from sitting down and reading fiction. I mean, even people who read, the percentage of people who read, I mean, let's face it, the vast majority of American males, they go right to the military history section and read about tanks and stuff like that. The percentage of people that read fiction is much smaller. And I think that is partly from what Jen is saying, you got to stretch that muscle. It's worth it. It's worth it.

[Luke Burbank]

I think you raise a really good point, Dan, which for me, of the like, of the 10 books that I've read that are actually difficult to get through and kind of like the books that you're supposed to read, that if you're at a party and someone says, well, clearly that's, you know, he's. He's making a reference to the death of Ivan Ilyich. There are. The only books that I can ever throw down with are all books that I was forced to read in college, which at the time I remember thinking, this is a tremendous pain. But I am personally so glad I did it, because that is it. Otherwise all I would have would be anecdotes from Reader's Digest. That's the stuff that I now volunteer. So if only because I took this class where the professor Willis Konik at the University of Washington was like, obsessed with Russian, you know, like, I guess, Russian fiction.

[Dan Ristione]

Was he dark and brooding.

[Luke Burbank]

He was actually cool. He would walk around on the desks. He was not. He was the angel.

[Dan Ristione]

Robin Williams esque.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. There was a Little. There was some goodwill that was hunted. No, I'm sorry.

[Dan Ristione]

There was some good dead poets.

[Luke Burbank]

Some dead poets that were societied. But it was great because I only read these books as I had to, and now they're really. That's the sum total of the books that I can kind of drop in conversation in a break way. Like. Well, if you remember that scene from.

[Dan Ristione]

Yes. Well, let me ask you guys. You and Jen both. I mean, did either of you have to take piano lessons or music lessons at all as a kid? Piano. You, Luke.

[Luke Burbank]

I voluntarily took trumpet because I wanted to learn how to play the theme song from Transformers. But then I.

[Dan Ristione]

That's excellent.

[Luke Burbank]

It turned out to be hard, so I quit.

[Dan Ristione]

See, I. I was not forced. I did not want to do that, and I regret it. I would love you. You find me. So many people wish their parents had made them take piano or trumpet. I tried the French horn, but it was bigger than. So it didn't really work. But I think it's the same kind of muscle. It's the same kind of muscle that I think is worth developing, especially as young as possible. As young as possible.

[Luke Burbank]

You know, I noticed, Dan, that To Kill a Mockingbird. I'm scrolling through the comments. To Kill a Mockingbird is probably the most cited book of any of them that people are saying were very important to them. Is it just because you think that book is the first time. I think maybe a lot of kids grow up pretty safe, which is a great thing.

[Dan Ristione]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

And kind of in this world that seems like it's more or less a just place. And then I think you read that book and you understand, like, your mind is kind of blown for the first time about, like, how complicated things are in the world, how unjust they can be. And you really, really, you know, closely identify or you feel super bad for Boo Radley.

[Dan Ristione]

Totally.

[Luke Burbank]

And maybe that's the first time people have that feeling as kids. I mean, is there a reason why this book comes up so much on.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

The list for Tom's trial? I mean, that's. That's the first time as a kid that you're like, oh, things don't always. Your parents don't always make it better.

[Luke Burbank]

I said Boo Radley, but I meant Tom.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

But you also have such great. Oh, my gosh.

[Dan Ristione]

And it's also. The book is told from the perspective of Scout. I mean, it's a book told as a child, but it hits amazing bass chords, major chords. Racism, injustice, all the rest of that. And it puts it in such the Scene where Scout faces down the crowd, crowd that wants to lynch Tom Robinson, when she engages Mr. Cunningham in a personal speech. That shows that the mob, the mob can be broken up when the individual emerges. That might go over a kid's head in a lot of ways, but you can't be hit, you can't not be hit by the majesty of that, the real boom of that. That's why it's got to be on your list.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. I told my kid if she wants to blow her teacher's mind up there at Jesus Creek, where she goes, she can just say, well, you know, Mrs. So and so. There's. There is in certain quarters a lot of speculation that, that Harper Lee didn't actually write it. That in fact, it was Truman Capote. Truman Capote.

[Dan Ristione]

Oh, because of their connection.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, because, I mean, Harper Lee, as I understand it, hasn't really written anything else like that.

[Dan Ristione]

That was it.

[Luke Burbank]

And she was hanging out with Truman Capote all the time. And now she's a total recluse. And Truman Capote was this writer that everybody was, you know.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Well, the same could be said for Salinger. I mean, he's a reckless as well.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, I think Truman Capote wrote the Catcher in the Rye and Franny and Zoe.

[Dan Ristione]

Whoa.

[Luke Burbank]

No, but I just thought, now you're blowing my mind. It'd be awesome if this 14 year old pipes up in class. Well, everybody knows that was really Truman Capote because if you look at Harper Lee's career. So she promised me she was going to actually deploy this in class, but I don't know if she's going to do it. Do you guys, as adults now, Dan, you and Jen are both way better at reading than I am in terms of taking the new material and stuff. Do you guys have lists that you work through kind of systematically, like how do you stay, you know, how do you stay in that flow when you're an adult and you don't have someone giving you required reading?

[Dan Ristione]

I don't know. Jen, are you an Oprah Book Club robot?

[Jen Flash Andrews]

No, I read whatever comes across my mind.

[Luke Burbank]

Whatever Gayle King says.

[Dan Ristione]

Gayle King is.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

I mean, obviously friends and family, especially my sister, are huge influences. They give me books that they love. I also read the New York Times Book reviews.

[Dan Ristione]

Yeah, there you go.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

You know, and I'm also a browser and I'm a huge fan of like the Elliott Bay Book Company. They do a great job of having employee recommendations, you know, and I love staff recommendations. I go that way a lot of the time. And then I Do have just kind of that list of classics that I return to that really mattered in my life. Like To Kill a Mockingbird, I've read over and over. This is not. This is a modern day classic. To Kill a Mockingbird is too. But Lord of the Rings, I go back to a lot of the ones that I feel like.

[Dan Ristione]

I'm glad, I'm glad you said that. And I didn't have to say that, but yes, absolutely.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

I reread it every few years.

[Luke Burbank]

How about you, Dan? Do you have a long list or do you go back and reread books that you love?

[Dan Ristione]

I know this is going to come off sounding like a real jerk, but. No, I mean, most of the things on my list I've checked off. So in some way people should feel bad for me because it's nice when you have, like a guide. These are the books you should read, you know, These are the Harvard classics. These are your everyman, whatever. For me, I like Jen. I have to spend a lot of time browsing because there's a lot of chaff out there to find the wheat. You really have to. I pick up books. If I find a title that's interesting, I'll look, look, the greatest joy in my life is finding an author. I'll find that one book and I'll be like, oh, yeah. And then I'll read through their whole rest of their stuff. I love it when I've got an author that's still going.

[Luke Burbank]

My sister Sarah, who will be mortified that I am even telling the story. She was in this, like obsessive compulsive feedback loop with the book Gone with the Wind. She would reread certain pages of it 20, 30, 40 times in a week. It was like reading. It was. She's, by the way, completely sane. She's not suffering from any kind of mental illness. So this is, you know, this story has a happy ending, but she would just go back and reread these certain pages that she just found so moving. Whenever she was kind of feeling blue or she needed some comfort, she would just. Do you guys have any books that are somehow, like, cathartic for you?

[Jen Flash Andrews]

In the book Pride and Prejudice.

[Dan Ristione]

Oh, yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Pret and pretty.

[Dan Ristione]

Pretty.

[Luke Burbank]

Our sisters call it Pret and pretty.

[Dan Ristione]

Pret and pretty. I also like Sense and Sensibility.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Yes.

[Dan Ristione]

An earlier one. But see, I'm also that same way. There are a lot of people who tell me, why don't you just go to the library? I have to own the book because I will. The books that I have And I couldn't tell you how many books are in my apartment. There's so many. I will reread them endlessly. And if I'm eating or something, it's on my mood. It's like, what do I want today? Today's a Sherlock Holmes kind of day. Today I want to read this. Today I want to read that. And I'll go back and reread them endlessly. Like your sister. It's just, it's part of me. I need that.

[Luke Burbank]

So it's almost like, it's like an element of your meal. You got your food, you got your wine, and then you've got your whatever kind of like brain flavor you need at that moment.

[Dan Ristione]

Well, there's nothing like for me anyway. And I'm a hopeless geek. I mean, remember I went through elementary school and high school. I was probably around 4 foot 2. I had glasses, I was tiny. I mean, you know, I was primed to be a reader. But for me there is, there is no greater feeling. There are times at work when I'm sitting out here doing my news and all the rest of that stuff. If I know I've got a book to come home to, I'm a happy man. I'm a happy, happy man.

[Luke Burbank]

That's actually really inspiring. And I'm not being. No, no, it's good because for me that's like, do I have an episode of intervention on TiVo? Is there a World Series of Poker? But how much better would it be if I knew that I was coming home to like the latest Jonathan Franzen thing? I would be probably a way more informed and well rounded person. So I'm glad to hear because it inspires me to start to try to move that stuff into my kind of field of vision. And the stuff that I get excited about because when I do it, I find it to be equally exciting. I just never think of it.

[Dan Ristione]

Well, I'm sorry, Jen, but I mean, to me there's also a certain. Like you saying, I wish I read more because there's not a snobbish thing in it. I mean, there's lots of other great things out there. And I wish reading had not become some kind of exclusive club that people felt they had to do. All the rest of this stuff, it's just plain fun. I mean, it's just straight out there fun.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

I've talked about this on the show before, but when I finish books, I sleep with them. And it's because I miss the characters in such a real and vivid way that I often Will just tuck it like a kid would do with a teddy bear. That's so cool. I tuck the book in. Last year, I read this book by this NPR writer. His name's Leif Enger. It was called Peace Like a River.

[Luke Burbank]

And.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

And I loved that book. Like, I haven't loved a book since To Kill a Mockingbird. And I slept with it. Jason always says you can tell by how many days the book is in the bed with us. But I slept with it kind of tucked under my arm for days and days.

[Dan Ristione]

Is there such a thing as literary infidelity?

[Jen Flash Andrews]

I think so. Well, I certainly committed all the time with Mr. Darcy.

[Dan Ristione]

Well, I must admit that I went through a phase with Mr. Darcy.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Didn't we all?

[Dan Ristione]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Well, for a minute there, I was inspired to be more like you guys.

[Dan Ristione]

Not so much anymore.

[Luke Burbank]

Really helped. Damn it, Ken.

[Dan Ristione]

We almost had him.

[Luke Burbank]

You might have jettisoned that impulse. No, seriously, Dan, thank you very much for coming in. Pleasure. And seriously, getting me to think about doing a little bit more. Because you're right. It's not a snobbish thing. It's something. I think that because there's so many other distractions in a lot of our lives, People that don't read enough, like me. I think it's because we tend to get caught up in the shiny little thing that sort of blows through our field of vision. But if we can remember how much fun it is to actually read a book.

[Dan Ristione]

Yeah.

[Luke Burbank]

Then it doesn't feel snobbish. It doesn't feel like work. It's just. It's another fun thing to do. But the problem is, I. When I think of other fun things to do, there's all this very ephemeral kind of trash that comes.

[Dan Ristione]

You're a very busy man.

[Luke Burbank]

Yeah. You can tell. Taco soup here.

[Dan Ristione]

There's a depth. I mean, we used to have a cultural vernacular where everybody knew the greats. And this is why I think one of the reasons required reading should be there. Everybody knew their bible quotes. Everybody knew this, they knew that. Now, you know, obviously, it's been replaced by movies and television and all the rest of that. You say a Simpsons quote, people know what you're saying. But that can be very surface. Books go much deeper. Yes, it's great to be able to say, I'll be back, and everyone knows what you want. But wouldn't it be cool to also say, the wheels of the gods grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly small? That's cool.

[Luke Burbank]

Who's that?

[Dan Ristione]

You know, I think that's a proverb. I do not know where that comes from.

[Luke Burbank]

That's. That sounds like my marriage.

[Dan Ristione]

Well, you were talking about Melville.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Sounded like Steinbeck.

[Luke Burbank]

Siri, that's. That's deep.

[Dan Ristione]

You were talking about Melville. How beautiful it was that he said, whenever it's a drizzly, damp November in my soul. Come on, man.

[Luke Burbank]

Hasn't everybody had that early Morrissey? That's the inspiration for everybody. I mean. I mean that seriously. Dan Reston, thank you very much. It's a pleasure as always. Hey, friendos. Luke Burbank here. It's a great time to be a TBTL listener in America, and you can finally tell the world that you're a 10 and proud of it. At Prettysnarky.com we sell tees, hats, and window decals that tell all of your neighbors and co workers that you're just that awesome. The window decals are white squares that adhere to the inside of your window. But don't worry, they're totally removable, so you can easily switch them from car to car. Unlike that more cowbell bumper sticker you had to give up when you sold your Honda. The TBTL hat is a low baseball cap, the opposite in structure from a trucker hat. It's navy with the TBTL logo stitched in silver. It's adjustable, so it looks great on every gender and every age. So buy a hat and hold the F onto it. Every order ships within 48 hours comes with certified autistic.

[Dan Ristione]

Oh, he screwed up the end of it.

[Luke Burbank]

I was doing great, right? I was trying to do the legal really fast. I was trying to do the legal too fast. Let me take a breath and then I'll try the legal again. Every order ships within 48 hours comes with a certificate of authenticity. Isn't it? See, certificate of authenticity is toughie. Okay. Every order ships within 48 hours comes with a certificate of authenticity. Every order ships within 48 hours comes with a certificate of authenticity and is hand addressed by that woman over there, Jen Flash Andrews. Pretty snarky dot com. It's TBTL merch for all. So there you go.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Perfect. I just remembered I brought you a hat.

[Luke Burbank]

You did? We'll just keep playing the music. Oh, thank you. This is really cool. This is what. This is what you mean when you say unstructured?

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Yes.

[Luke Burbank]

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[Jen Flash Andrews]

Fits your head. It molds to your head.

[Luke Burbank]

Thank you, Jennifer.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

You're welcome.

[Luke Burbank]

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[Jen Flash Andrews]

Good luck to all.

[Luke Burbank]

To be.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

I feel, I feel, I feel happy.

[Luke Burbank]

Of myself I feel happy of myself.

[Dan Ristione]

Happy of myself Give me some thumbs.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Up thumbs up everybody from what can.

[Luke Burbank]

Grow thumb up everybody for walking you.

[Jen Flash Andrews]

Look at the hang and I know.

[Luke Burbank]

It you will get better and better I know it.