(BNS) Senator Ron Wyden On TikTok, AI, Regulation And His New Book

Summary

Techmeme Ride Home: Episode Summary Title: Senator Ron Wyden On TikTok, AI, Regulation And His New Book
Host: Brian McCullough
Release Date: January 18, 2025

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of Techmeme Ride Home, host Brian McCullough engages in a comprehensive discussion with Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon. The conversation delves into a range of pressing technology and policy issues, including social media regulation, artificial intelligence, privacy legislation, and insights from Wyden's newly released book.

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1. Senator Ron Wyden’s New Book: "It Takes Chutzpah"

[00:53 - 02:32]

Senator Wyden introduces his latest book, It Takes Chutzpah: How to Fight Fearlessly for Progressive Change. He explains that "chutzpah," a Yiddish term embodying grit and determination, serves as the central theme for inspiring individuals to enact meaningful change.

Senator Ron Wyden [01:20]:
"Chutzpah is the indispensable instrument for having a better country. If you look at our history, individuals like Abraham Lincoln or Dr. Martin Luther King demonstrated extraordinary chutzpah, nerve, and grit."

Wyden emphasizes that the book is designed to highlight "inner chutzpah" within everyone, offering twelve rules to empower readers to make a difference both locally and globally.

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2. Bipartisanship and Compromise in Modern Politics

[02:32 - 04:29]

The discussion shifts to the importance of compromise in today's polarized political climate. Wyden advocates for what he terms "principled bipartisanship," which focuses on adopting quality ideas from all sides rather than engaging in superficial horse-trading.

Senator Ron Wyden [02:55]:
"Bipartisanship is not about taking each other's crummy ideas and then strutting around. It's about taking good ideas."

Wyden cites his collaboration with Chris Cox on Section 230 as an example of successful bipartisan effort, underscoring the potential for meaningful policy-making when legislators prioritize substance over partisanship.

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3. Section 230: Preservation and Future

[04:29 - 09:06]

A significant portion of the conversation centers on Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, a foundational law for internet companies. Wyden, a co-author of Section 230, defends its current framework while acknowledging the need for improvements.

Senator Ron Wyden [04:50]:
"The basics of Section 230 were sound when Chris and I wrote this and are still sound today. Protecting users and encouraging those without power and clout makes a lot of sense."

He argues that Section 230 is crucial for safeguarding free speech and enabling movements like MeToo and Black Lives Matter, which might not have thrived without its protections.

Senator Ron Wyden [09:06]:
"It's just jaw-dropping that Zuckerberg is trying to curry favor with Trump by altering moderation policies. Fact-checking is fundamental for accountability and transparency."

Wyden criticizes recent changes by Meta (formerly Facebook) to their moderation policies, viewing them as detrimental to public interest and the foundational goals of Section 230.

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4. TikTok Ban and National Security

[09:06 - 11:30]

Addressing the contentious issue of a potential TikTok ban, Wyden expresses concerns over executive actions that could be perceived as corrupt or favoring political allies.

Senator Ron Wyden [10:22]:
"I would be very troubled if Trump just stepped in and ordered the sale of TikTok to someone like Elon Musk because Elon Musk was his big contributor in the campaign. I think that would just be corrupt."

Wyden advocates for allowing an American company to take over TikTok, emphasizing the importance of maintaining constitutional rights, particularly free speech, while addressing national security concerns.

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5. Artificial Intelligence: Regulation and Innovation

[13:44 - 18:53]

The conversation transitions to the burgeoning field of artificial intelligence (AI). Wyden discusses the delicate balance between fostering innovation and implementing responsible regulation.

Senator Ron Wyden [14:08]:
"Think through carefully what you're doing and take creative steps, but also allow for a big birth for developments and innovation."

He mentions the Algorithm Accountability Act, highlighting its focus on addressing immediate AI-related issues without stifling technological advancement. Wyden stresses that regulation should support security and economic stability without hampering the growth and potential of AI technologies.

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6. Privacy Legislation in the Digital Age

[18:57 - 20:26]

Privacy emerges as a critical topic, with Wyden underscoring its multifaceted impact on national security, the economy, health, and individual rights.

Senator Ron Wyden [19:28]:
"Privacy affects everything. It's a national security issue, it's an economic issue, it affects your health."

He references his efforts to expose data breaches, such as the unauthorized use of geolocation data by 600 Planned Parenthood sites, demonstrating the tangible consequences of inadequate privacy protections. Wyden positions himself as a leading advocate for robust privacy legislation, emphasizing its necessity in an age where virtually nothing remains unsurveilled.

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7. Concluding Thoughts: Chutzpah and Principled Bipartisanship

[21:10 - 23:53]

In wrapping up, Wyden reiterates the principles outlined in his book, highlighting key rules such as the importance of stopping harmful actions and seizing unexpected opportunities to effect change.

Senator Ron Wyden [21:27]:
"Never missing the unexpected moment is an important rule because... I saw opportunities when Senator Scalia's son was in negotiations. We got the extra help even over Mitch McConnell's opposition."

He laments the current state of bipartisanship, where true collaboration is overshadowed by superficial ideological battles. Wyden calls for a return to "principled bipartisanship," where blending good ideas leads to outcomes greater than their individual parts.

Brian McCullough [22:48]:
"It's about blending good ideas together to make something that's better than the sum of its parts. Maybe this is the moment for that sort of thinking."

Wyden concludes by praising Techmeme for embodying chutzpah through its innovative approach to disseminating technology news.

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Key Takeaways

• Chutzpah as a Catalyst for Change: Wyden's book emphasizes the role of courage and determination in driving progressive policies.
• Preservation of Section 230: Essential for protecting free speech and enabling significant social movements online.
• Balanced Approach to AI Regulation: Advocating for responsible oversight that nurtures innovation while addressing security concerns.
• Robust Privacy Protections: Critical in safeguarding individual rights and national interests in an increasingly surveilled world.
• Principled Bipartisanship: Moving beyond superficial compromises to embrace meaningful collaboration and quality policymaking.

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For further insights, listen to the full episode of Techmeme Ride Home and explore Senator Ron Wyden’s book, It Takes Chutzpah: How to Fight Fearlessly for Progressive Change.

Transcript

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[Brian McCullough]

Welcome to another bonus episode of the Techmeme Ride Home. I'm your host, as always, Brian McCullough. We are honored today to have a very special guest. We are going to speak to Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon. Senator, thanks for coming on the show.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Thanks for having me, Brian. Been looking forward to it.

[Brian McCullough]

So you have a book out came out just this week called It Takes Chutzpah, how to Fight Fearlessly for Progressive Change. So chutzpah is a Yiddish word, I believe it embodies like grit, determination, things like that. Why did you choose that as sort of the framing device for this book? How do you think chutzpah should be interpreted, and why is it so vital today?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Ryan I consider chutzpah to be the indispensable instrument for having a better country. And in fact, if you look at our history, some of the most notable events really showed individuals demonstrating extraordinary chutzpah, nerve and grit, and being willing to take on the odds. You think, for example, of Abraham Lincoln or Dr. Martin Luther King. We have example after example. And what I wanted to do was write a very different sort of book. In fact, one of the things of the last few days that's really pleased me is a couple of young people found some galleys and read it, and one of them came up to me and said, hey, you're the Senate guy. This doesn't look like a book written by a Senate person. What I wanted to do was really talk about how we all have what I call inner chutzpah. And we've got Ron's rules of chutzpah, 12 of them, to really let people polish their ability to make a difference in their world and often in the broader world.

[Brian McCullough]

You also there's a lot in your book about compromise, about working with people that might be in opposition to you, either politically or philosophically, given the times that we're in now. And as a Democrat, you still firmly believe that this is a time where Compromise is possible and maybe even required.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Ryan I believe in what I call principled bipartisanship. Bipartisanship is not about taking each other's crummy ideas and then strutting around. Anybody can do that. It's about taking good ideas. And for example, I believe that's what Chris Cox and I did in laying out what has come to be known in many places, 26 words that created the Internet. And I've also talked in the last couple of days.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

I'm the author of the Clean energy.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Tax credits more than $400 billion in a very different kind of approach than the last 50 years of gridlock, where there was no cap and trade and there was no carbon pricing and there were no regulatory kind of incentives. And I broke the gridlock. And in energy, what I said is we need a cleaner carbon future and connect it to more affordable energy prices and national security. Those are the three legs of what I think makes for a good energy policy. And I'm still flushing it out, even though we passed the law. And 18 Republican Congress members recently sent a letter to the Trump people saying, we don't want you to get rid of this. And in the House of Representatives, 18 Republican votes for a major technology, clean energy, business, innovation kind of approach. 18 votes is a block that can decide what happens.

[Brian McCullough]

You were referring when you said the 26 words that created the Internet. You're referring to the fact that you're one of the co authors of Section 230, which has been in the news a lot lately, especially with this change in administration, administrations. Do you think that Section 230 can and should survive in its current form?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I certainly believe that there's no law that you can't improve. But the basics of section 230 were sound when Chris and I wrote this and are still sound today. For example, one of the areas Democrats and Republicans agree on is that there should be more personal responsibility in our affairs and business and legislation should include it. That's what Chris and I did in 230. We said that the individual who posts the content, who's responsible for creating it, is the one who's going to be held accountable, not somebody who's just a publisher. So I think that the fundamental principles of protecting users, encouraging people who don't have power and clout and money makes a lot of sense. And frankly, Brian, I think that the ideas we've had for 230 make even more sense now, particularly in view of this Zuckerberg toadying up to Donald Trump because, you know, with these big companies doing something like that, I consider that to be a major step towards the reconsolidation of communications in a few hands like Zuckerberg or Musk. And that would take us back to the days before we had the Internet. So section 230, focus on users, focus on people who don't have power in clout. I'm not sure, for example, that the MeToo movement or Black Lives Matter, you know, would be out there without the benefits of 230.

[Unnamed Advertiser]

Well, right.

[Brian McCullough]

That's why it's been in the news recently. Meta's recent changes to their moderation policies, things like maybe getting rid of fact checking, potentially not tracking and flagging viral hoaxes on platforms like Facebook and Instagram. So specifically, vis a vis section 230. Yeah.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Fact checking in particular is a fundamental tool of accountability and transparency. And it is just jaw dropping that Zuckerberg, in an effort to try to curry favor with Trump, I'm sure that, you know, he's just hoping that there will be some policy that's be important to Zuckerberg and his company and he'll have curried favor with. With Trump. It's just not in the public interest.

[Brian McCullough]

Do you agree with Zuckerberg when he says, and I'm paraphrasing here, it's. It suggests to him, the political wind suggests to him that there's been a change in what people find acceptable on platforms in terms of content. Do you agree. Disagree with that?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Let's unpack that a little bit, you know, because people say, well, 230 is the primary reason for there being stuff online that we don't like. That's factually untrue. Brian, if 230 just disappeared, it's been studied and analyzed that more than 90% of the stuff, the filth and the like that we just really dislike on the Internet is not there because of 230. It's there because of the First Amendment. And I don't see anybody proposing getting rid of the First Amendment. I give you an example that when we authored 230, the New York Times had a long story about Chris Cox and I went to school on a basketball scholarship. The picture made it look like I was 7ft tall or something and was dunking on the world. And they said, these two are responsible for the hate speech activity and the growth in it that we're seeing. And I usually don't kind of follow up with the publication, but I told the staff we need to do this because most of the hate speech is due to the First Amendment, not due to 230. We brought it to the Times attention, and they wrote a very long response indicating that we were right, that if you didn't have 230, you would still have a tremendous amount of hate speech. So what we need to do is find fresh approaches that particularly encourage moderation and the kinds of policies that Chris and I wrote.

[Brian McCullough]

So. So to be clear, you. This seeming movement from these social platforms recently, away from moderation, you think is. Is a bad direction?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I think it's a horrible idea. Because if they don't step up and take advantage of the tool that we put in place that's practical, gives them substantial discretion to do it. What they'll do is find that people will say, hey, you didn't use it.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

Let's pass a law, require you to do it.

[Brian McCullough]

We are days, hours away from a potential TikTok ban. You're on record, but just for our purposes, what is your position on if on Sunday people wake up and TikTok is blank? How do you feel about that?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Well, as you know, Markey and Cory Booker and Rokahana and I are all pushing for additional time to have an American buyer. I start with the proposition that I'm for constitutional rights, and a particularly important one is free speech. I'm on the Intelligence Committee.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

I know how serious the Chinese threat is. I've been blowing the whistle on Salt Typhoon.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I led that kind of effort. So I'm still holding out hope. Some people call it a Hail Mary.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

Or whatever you call it.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I think that Americans would very much like an American company running it. What I will tell you, though, is I would be very troubled if Trump just stepped in and ordered the sale of it to somebody like Elon Musk, because Elon Musk was his big contributor in the campaign. I think that would just be corrupt if he ordered the sale to Musk.

[Brian McCullough]

So you're not in favor of Musk buying TikTok, operating it, even though he is an American? It would be under American hands. But you're saying that you're not comfortable maybe even on with the sweetheart deal.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I mean, let's just unpack this. You've got, you know, Trump under the scenario that I talked about, and, you know, who knows what's going to happen over the next few days. Ordering the Chinese government for the sale to come to Musk, who funded the Trump campaign, I think that's corrupt. I think it's wrong.

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[Brian McCullough]

Let's switch to AI for a second. You know, I've been in the tech industry for 30 years and I feel like AI is the first technology that I can remember people wanting to regulate ahead of time to get ahead of the technology before it reaches maturity. Why do you think that is? What makes, in your mind, AI tech different than previous advances in technology.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Well, first of all, Brian, that is not my position.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

My position is always to try to.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Think through carefully what you're doing and take creative steps, but also allow for a big birth for developments and innovation.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

For example, as I did with section230 and Chris Cox bipartisan bill, Cory Booker and Yvette Clark and I have something.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Called the Algorithm Accountability act, which says.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

Hey, before we go out and pass all these grandiose bills and have so much intervention in sector after sector, let's think through some of the real priorities, what AI means for people's job and their health care and their housing. And I will tell you that most.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Of the ranking members in the Senate.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

The former chairs, are now co sponsors of my bill. And I think we're going to get some traction on it when the debate starts. But I basically share the theory that you're talking about is that, you know, out of nowhere, everybody has a big comprehensive plan to regulate from A to Z. And my sense is that you start with something like the proposal I have for algorithm accountability and you go from there.

[Brian McCullough]

Right? Because there's, you know, the geopolitical angle always jumps up when we're talking about this. The idea that this is technology, that if an adversary nation state were to jump ahead of the United States or whomever, it would have serious geopolitical, even, you know, security implications. But conversely, if there were too much regulation, that would allow a potential adversary the ability to move faster and maybe get a leg up. So what, how's, what's your stance on balancing, allowing the technology to flower, but also in a, in a way that you feel like is responsible for this country?

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

Your thoughtful question.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I'm for it.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

I'm for the flowering, so to speak. To use your lingo. I think that the two are not mutually exclusive. Smart use of innovation is going to.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Help us be more secure in a.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

Dangerous world rather than less. I just don't think the two are mutually exclusive. And if you look again at my record on technology, what I've said is let's not run around and prove to the world that we're unscathed by the facts. Enough people already think that about Congress. They think we can't run a two car parade. Let's think it through. And that's what I've tried to do. And the Algorithm Accountability act that I've mentioned is useful not just because it tackles immediate kinds of issues. It's a representation of the way I've tried to approach technology since I came to the Senate. I think I might have mentioned to you once upon the time. Thought I'd talk to you about it when I showed up in the Senate. Guess how many people knew how to use a computer?

[Brian McCullough]

I know not very many.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Pat Leahy won a grand total of.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

One when I got to the Senate. And so I had a chance because I went out and asked a lot of questions.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I'm a journalist, kid.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

You know, my dad was a writer. He wrote a big book about the Bay of Pigs, the Untold Story. There's a picture of my dad and Fidel Castro on the back of the book. And Castro says, Peter White knows more about it than we do. So I asked a lot of questions. I wrote the Digital signatures, you know, law. Very proud of that one. You know, we signed the contract for it Takes chutzpah digitally. And I worked with Spence Abraham, a Republican out of Michigan, and John McCain.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

And all kinds of people.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

So that's been kind of the way I roll in terms of technology. And I think it's a lane that not as many of my colleagues are occupying. And I hope that some of the new members will.

[Brian McCullough]

I want to do one more AI one before we wrap up a little. With the cost of training cutting edge models rising to the point where it could soon cost a billion dollars, $10 billion to train a model, some folks have suggested that eventually only nation states could afford to keep pushing the cutting edge in AI. And already there are. There's talks of some countries in the Middle east and elsewhere funding and spinning up their own models sort of as a national resource. Would you ever be in favor of that for, say, the U.S. like the U.S. government may be creating an initiative and spending the money to train, say a GPT 6 or 7 level LLM.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

My seat of the pants take is the technology is going to change. And I want to see a little bit more before I start kind of.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Wading in to kind of make a.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

Bunch of additional government directives.

[Brian McCullough]

You obviously, as you were just talking about, you were an early advocate for the Internet. Early adopter, we would say. But you've also been one of the toughest proponents for privacy legislation in regards to tech. Square that circle for me in terms of how that philosophy gels with also being an early adopter.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

Well, privacy affects, you know, everything. It's a national security issue, it's an economic issue. It affects your health.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I mean, you know, recently I exposed.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

The fact that 600 Planned Parenthood sites, you know, data brokers, were gobbling up geolocation data.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

And I mean, that has huge implications for people's health.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

It is particularly important now because when.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

I got started losing my voice a little, when I got started, there were limits technologically that afforded people some privacy.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

In other words, there were places that the technology couldn't go. And so Brian and Ron and everybody else had a measure of privacy. That's not true anymore. That's virtually nothing that can't be surveilled. And I think it's critically important and I've been involved legislatively. If you look at the hearing, you know, track record, hardly a hearing goes by that I don't raise questions about privacy. And when publications say I'm the Senate's leading privacy hawk, I say thank you very much.

[Brian McCullough]

With this new administration, do you feel there is still room for bipartisan tech policy and privacy work?

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Well, I hope so.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

I mean, you know, there's been some kind of, you know, ominous signs and you know, in healthcare policy, if you're talking about middlemen, which is so important, we had an agreement between Democrats and Republicans for the end of the year. Bill Mikeo and I get a 26 to nothing vote and Trump and Musk come in. I called them the porch pirates and basically, you know, took it away and maybe they're going to come back to it. So I get the feeling that the Trump administration is going to say, hey, this is our answer and everybody's supposed to salute.

[Brian McCullough]

Let's conclude by coming back to the book and actually coming back to chutzpah as a concept. You outline in the book Ron's 12 Rules of Chutzpah. I'm not asking you to go down all dozen, but share with us just a few of your favorite sort of rules for.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

Well, the one, the one that's very.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

Important now is you have to stop and do everything you can to stop stuff that's going to cause people to get hurt and is bad. And you also at the same time need to look for good ideas, several of which we talked about here. So I want people to understand that's a particularly important, important rule. I also think never missing the unexpected moment is an important rule because particularly today when so much government is sort of scripted out, it's important to look for opportunities. I was able to get the $600 a week additional help for people when they've been laid off during COVID get help for the gig workers, of which I suspect you have a lot of your listeners and people are following this discussion. Those were important efforts. And I basically went into those meetings. I saw opportunities when Senator Scalia's, you know, son who was labor head, was in negotiations with me and Secretary Mnuchin of Treasury. We just happened to know more about the programs than anybody. We got the extra help even over Mitch McConnell's opposition.

[Brian McCullough]

My personal favorite was number 11, which is compromise isn't about horse trading bad.

[Unnamed Advertiser]

Ideas for each other.

[Brian McCullough]

It's about blending good ideas together to make, you know, something that's better than the sum of its parts. I feel like maybe this is the moment for that sort of thinking.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

You may, you made my day.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

Because I think that's what people, when they think of government, you know, Oregon is like 3,000 miles from, you know, Washington, D.C. and to a great extent, people think in my state, you know.

[Senator Ron Wyden]

D.C. might as well be Mars.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

And one of the reason why is there's not enough of the kind of work you're talking about. In fact, I call it principled bipartisanship. Brian, Today, much of bipartisanship is somebody not really being bipartisan, not really being open to taking other people's ideas, but they're just really looking for an ideological trophy, winning, and then they'll call it bipartisan.

[Brian McCullough]

Well, again, the book, which is out now, you can buy it as you're listening to this, it's called It Takes Chutzpah, how to Fight Fearlessly for Progressive Change by Senator Ron Wyden. Senator, thank you for coming on the show.

[Unnamed Senator or Guest]

My closing address. I've always thought techmeme had a lot of chutzpah because you offer good ideas and encourage people to think, and that's part of chutzpah.