Podcast Summary: Tech Matters

Episode: "Design as a Lifeline: Jonathan McKay on Supporting LGBTQI+ Youth with SameSame"

Host: Jim Fruchterman
Guest: Jonathan McKay
Date: January 21, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode explores the journey of Jonathan McKay, founder of SameSame, a digital mental health intervention for LGBTQI+ youth in Africa. McKay recounts his career transition from corporate digital design to social impact technology, the unique challenges of designing for marginalized groups in low-tech environments, and the process of building and refining a tech-powered mental health support system. The conversation offers a candid look at the ethical, logistical, and personal facets of ‘Tech for Good,’ particularly as it intersects with mental health, LGBTQI+ issues, and scalable digital innovation on the African continent.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jonathan McKay’s Unconventional Path to Tech for Good

• From Graphic Design to Social Impact:
  • McKay started in South Africa studying graphic design simply because he liked to draw, not initially intending to work in social change.
  • His education at the University of Pretoria emphasized design as a problem-solving discipline, which shaped his later tech and social entrepreneurship work.
  • Quote: "[Graphic design] treated design as a problem solving discipline. And I think that that is something that I do almost every single day. I am using everything that I know, all of my experience, to solve problems." (01:50)

2. Building Digital Experiences in Low-Tech Environments

• Constraints as Creativity Drivers:
  • Worked across African markets during the mobile phone boom, designing campaigns for Guinness, Coca Cola, and other brands where most users had basic phones and limited or no internet.
  • Developed a strong appreciation for the power of a single well-crafted SMS in resource-limited contexts.
  • Quote: "It never struck me as a compromise...if you are clever about it, you can make a single text message really powerful and useful." (07:20-08:20)
  • Emphasizes how technological limitations pushed the team to make every user interaction meaningful.

3. Transitioning to Social Impact Work

• Corporate to Nonprofit:
  • Digital strategies for nonprofits required deep understanding of complex, personal behaviors—like HIV prevention—rather than simple consumer persuasion.
  • Quote: "That's a much more interesting problem than trying to get that man to buy another bottle of [soda]." (10:39)

4. The Birth of SameSame

• Identifying the Gap:
  • Noticed a profound lack of digital support for LGBTQI+ youth in Africa, while organizations in US/EU were more digitally mature.
  • Realized many LGBTQI+ young people could not access in-person services due to safety and stigma; digital offered anonymity and safety.
  • Personal reflection: Online forums and anonymity as a “gray zone” for self-exploration as a closeted queer youth.
  • Quote: "Digital technologies, however, that's perfect. Here's a way that you can anonymously interact with a person or a service without revealing too much about yourself and get the support that you need wherever you are." (15:48)
  • The compelling need for such a solution drove McKay to reluctantly found SameSame.
  • Quote: "I'm always going to have that feeling that I'm doing this work until someone else is doing it better than I am." (19:30)

5. Early Development & Theory of Change

• From Idea to Prototype:
  • The initial idea (2012) was a digital safe space for young queer people, including forums, FAQs, and chats—reanimated in 2021 for a WhatsApp-focused accelerator.
  • Decided WhatsApp was ideal due to its ubiquity, encryption, and low barrier to entry.
• Focusing on Mental Health:
  • Chose mental health as the focal point to complement (not duplicate) other LGBTQI+ grassroots services.
  • Launched a cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) course based on the Affirm intervention, adapted for WhatsApp as a chatbot experience.
  • Quote: "I will sometimes describe it as something like Duolingo for mental health through WhatsApp." (28:31)

6. Product Structure and User Journey

• How the Intervention Works:
  • Users engage with single-session or modular mental health learnings via chatbot—covering goal setting, social network building, etc.
  • Modules are designed for stand-alone/on-demand use, not rigid sequencing.
• Adapting for Scalability and Safety:
  • Automated, menu-based chatbot (not group chats, for safety).
  • Focused on reducing friction (i.e., not even asking for a nickname increased signups).
• Iterative Design and Data-Driven Improvement:
  • Employs reinforcement learning/MAB-style testing and continuous tweaks to content and user flow based on real engagement data.
  • Quote: "There are a number of different tests that we are running all the time." (40:45)

7. Measuring Impact

• Massive Reach with Measurable Outcomes:
  • Over 360,000 users engaged in South Africa and Zimbabwe.
  • 86% of users completing the CBT course showed positive shifts on the PHQ-9 depression scale; half of those had clinically significant improvement.
  • Ongoing research into longer-term impact and “dosage” optimization.
  • Quote: "We have 86% of users who are showing positive shifts on that scale. ...We use the standardized clinical tool, the patient health questionnaire 9." (34:10)

8. The Broader Context: Mental Health, AI, and Scalability

• Global Mental Health Crisis & Digital’s Role:
  • Severe lack of trained mental health professionals, especially in Africa (as low as one counselor per 100,000 people).
  • Digital interventions can be the only way to scale support, especially for marginalized or rural youth.
  • Human support remains invaluable, but bots sometimes offer unique privacy and comfort absent with humans.
  • Quote: "I firmly believe that the only way to meet the need is to introduce digital technologies to the mental health ecosystem in a more meaningful way... where there is some triage... making sure that they get to a human being quickly, if a human being is what they need." (43:09)
  • Critical of unethical practices by some large LLM providers but insists inaction is unconscionable given the unmet need.

9. Challenges in Launching and Sustaining Digital Social Impact

• Structural Hurdles:
  • Rigidity of donor — and legal — requirements for new organizations; lack of fiscal sponsorship infrastructure in Africa compared to US.
  • Frustration of needing "organization" things (audit, procurement policies) before impact can even be measured. (19:30)
• Staying Relevant:
  • Uptake of commercial chatbots (Meta, TikTok, etc.) means SameSame competes for youth attention/engagement with global digital platforms.
  • Quote: "We are competing with TikTok for young people's time and attention, not another service that they're not using." (41:35)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Design and Social Impact:
  • "I think that that is something that I do almost every single day. I am using everything that I know, all of my experience, to solve problems." (01:50, Jonathan McKay)
• On Constraints and Innovation:
  • "It never struck me as a compromise either, because if you are clever about it, you can make a single text message really powerful and really useful." (08:00, McKay)
• On Personal Motivation:
  • "I'm a reluctant founder in many respects...I was very happy at Girl Effect. I didn't want to start my own organization...but I felt compelled to start [SameSame]." (12:47, McKay)
• On Digital’s Unique Role for Marginalized Youth:
  • "Digital technologies...here's a way that you can anonymously interact with a person or a service without revealing too much about yourself and get the support that you need wherever you are." (15:48, McKay)
• On Competing for Youth’s Attention:
  • "We are competing with TikTok for young people's time and attention, not another service that they're not using." (41:35, McKay)
• On Measurement and Impact:
  • "We have 86% of users who are showing positive shifts on that scale [PHQ-9]. And then just under half of those users are showing shift of nine points or more." (34:10, McKay)
• On the Future of AI in Mental Health:
  • "I firmly believe that the only way to meet the need is to introduce digital technologies to the mental health ecosystem in a more meaningful way..." (43:09, McKay)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:31] – Jonathan McKay’s background and design philosophy
• [06:36] – Operating with technological constraints in African markets
• [08:47] – Transition to nonprofit and social good work
• [12:47] – Launching SameSame & seeing the digital support gap
• [15:48] – The need for anonymity and safe digital spaces
• [19:30] – Frustrations with organizational requirements
• [21:23] – Origin story of the SameSame intervention via WhatsApp
• [25:49] – Theory of change: focus on mental health/agency
• [28:39] – Product structure and modules
• [31:26] – Changing approach to measurement and evaluation
• [34:10] – Impact data and clinical outcomes
• [36:50] – User privacy, A/B testing, learning systems
• [40:45] – Competing with commercial chatbots and shifting user expectations
• [43:09] – Discussion of AI, stepped care, and the ecosystem for global mental health

Conclusion

"Sometimes the most important use of technology is simply creating a safe, anonymous space for someone to be themselves." (Host, Jim Fruchterman)

This episode offers a vibrant window into the concrete challenges and triumphs of harnessing tech for social good. McKay’s journey underscores the creative potential in designing for constraint, the deep responsibility of putting users first (especially those facing stigma and harm), and the extraordinary, measurable potential of digital mental health interventions in transforming young lives—one SMS or chatbot session at a time.

For more on leveraging technology for social impact, visit fruchterman.org or look for Jim Fruchterman's book, Technology for How: Nonprofit Leaders Are Using Software and Data to Solve Our Most Pressing Social Problems.