How to give your customers choice through tech with Tom James, Managing Director at Bills

Summary

Tech on Toast Podcast Summary: "How to Give Your Customers Choice Through Tech" featuring Tom James, Managing Director at Bills

Published on October 23, 2024

---

Introduction

In the latest episode of Tech on Toast, The Hospitality Tech Podcast, host Chris Fletcher engages in an insightful conversation with Tom James, the Managing Director at Bills, a renowned name in the casual dining sector. The episode delves into Tom's extensive journey in the hospitality industry, the evolution of training and management practices, the integration of technology to enhance customer choice, and the strategic decisions that have shaped Bills into the successful brand it is today.

---

Tom James’ Journey in Hospitality

Tom James begins by recounting his humble beginnings in the hospitality sector, starting as a glass collector in a local pub at the age of 16. His career took a significant turn when he joined Henry J. Beans, a prominent establishment known for its rigorous training programs.

Tom James [03:03]: "I always remember my first general manager meeting. We had to meet Douglas, the CEO. He praised our P&L's, and I realized the importance of financial oversight in hospitality."

This foundational experience ingrained in Tom the importance of a strong team and guest focus, principles that continue to guide him in his current role at Bills.

---

Evolution of Hospitality Training and Management

Tom highlights the stark contrast between the extensive training programs of the past and the more abbreviated training processes today. Reflecting on his time at Henry J. Beans, Tom emphasizes the depth of training managers received, which included hands-on assessments and comprehensive learning periods.

Tom James [03:39]: "Back then, we had a three-month training before being allowed on the bar. Today, such extensive training has largely been reduced, impacting both team quality and service standards."

He notes that while efficiency has improved, the reduction in training depth has affected team cohesion and operational excellence.

---

Transition from Jamie's to Copper Club to Bills

After his tenure at Henry J. Beans, Tom explored various opportunities, including a significant stint in Jersey with the Jersey Brewery and later at Revolution in Bristol. His move to Copper Club allowed him to delve deeper into all-day casual dining, where he was instrumental in introducing innovative concepts like outdoor igloos to enhance the dining experience.

Tom James [14:31]: "Introducing the igloos was a game-changer. It shifted our focus to experiential dining, where good food and drink weren’t enough—we needed to offer something more."

This innovative approach laid the groundwork for his eventual leadership role at Bills, where he continues to push the envelope in enhancing customer choice through technology.

---

The Impact of COVID-19 on the Industry

Tom discusses the challenges faced during the COVID-19 pandemic, particularly in maintaining operations and supporting teams during unprecedented times. He shares his personal experience of stepping out of his MD role to manage a restaurant in Padstow, emphasizing hands-on leadership during crises.

Tom James [17:15]: "Running the restaurant on the floor during the pandemic was a real lesson. It taught me the value of resilience and adaptability in the face of adversity."

---

Embracing Technology at Bills

A significant portion of the conversation centers on the strategic integration of technology at Bills to offer customers greater choice and streamline operations.

AI Chatbot for Reservations

Tom elaborates on the implementation of an AI-powered chatbot to handle reservations, which resulted in a 36% increase in bookings in its first year.

Tom James [45:00]: "We introduced an AI Chatbot for reservations, which allowed guests to book up to 20 people, view menus, and get instant responses to their queries. This not only improved the guest experience but also alleviated the pressure on our reservations team."

The successful trial of the chatbot demonstrated the potential of AI in enhancing operational efficiency and customer satisfaction.

Introduction of Kiosks

Expanding on technological advancements, Tom discusses the introduction of tabletop kiosks at Bills, designed to offer guests multiple ordering options without overwhelming the staff.

Tom James [39:52]: "Our kiosks are subtle, tabletop devices that provide an alternative ordering method. They allow guests to place orders at their convenience, reducing the burden on our bartenders and waitstaff."

This initiative has been well-received, catering to diverse customer preferences and enhancing the overall dining experience.

---

Data-Driven Decision Making

Tom emphasizes the pivotal role of data in shaping strategic decisions at Bills. Moving away from purely anecdotal evidence, Bills leverages comprehensive CRM systems to understand guest behaviors, preferences, and trends.

Tom James [47:22]: "All our decisions have been data-based. From menu changes to technology implementations, we rely on extensive data analysis to guide our actions, ensuring that we meet our guests' needs effectively."

This data-centric approach has enabled Bills to make informed decisions that resonate with their customer base, driving growth and satisfaction.

---

Change Management and Team Buy-in

Implementing significant changes, especially technological ones, requires careful management and team consensus. Tom shares strategies employed at Bills to ensure successful adoption of new technologies.

Tom James [26:34]: "Introducing 287 changes in 18 months was daunting. We prioritized transparency and involved skeptical GMs as trial ambassadors to demonstrate the benefits of each change, ensuring team buy-in and smooth transitions."

By fostering a collaborative environment and emphasizing the benefits of change, Bills has managed to implement numerous improvements without disrupting operations or guest experiences.

---

Maintaining Brand Authenticity

Throughout the episode, Tom underscores the importance of maintaining authenticity and staying true to Bills' core values, even amidst rapid technological integration.

Tom James [22:27]: "Bill's authentic origin story and Bill himself's involvement in design and culture have been crucial. We ensure that every technological implementation aligns with our brand's ethos of community and genuine hospitality."

This commitment to authenticity ensures that technological advancements enhance rather than detract from the brand's identity.

---

Future Plans and Expansion

Looking ahead, Tom shares exciting plans for Bills' expansion, including new openings in Milton Keynes and participation in events like Winter Wonderland in Cardiff. These initiatives aim to blend technology with unique dining experiences, further cementing Bills' reputation as a forward-thinking brand.

Tom James [41:17]: "Opening new sites in November amidst the holiday rush will test our systems' robustness and our team's adaptability. We're building our Avengers team to ensure these launches are seamless and successful."

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes with mutual appreciation between Chris and Tom, highlighting the camaraderie and shared experiences within the hospitality industry. Tom's insights into balancing technology with genuine customer and team focus provide valuable lessons for industry professionals seeking to innovate without compromising on quality and authenticity.

Tom James [52:19]: "The decisions we've made are all about data and enhancing guest experiences. Technology should simplify operations, not complicate them."

Key Takeaways:

• Comprehensive Training: Investing in thorough training programs builds strong, competent teams.
• Data-Driven Decisions: Leveraging data over anecdotal evidence ensures more effective and targeted strategies.
• Balanced Technology Integration: Introducing technology should enhance the guest experience and operational efficiency without disrupting the brand's core values.
• Change Management: Successful implementation of changes requires transparency, team involvement, and strategic prioritization.
• Maintaining Authenticity: Staying true to the brand's origins and values is crucial, even as the business evolves and adopts new technologies.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Tom James [03:42]: "We were obsessive with the product and it was amazing that there wasn't financial pressure back then."
• Tom James [14:31]: "Introducing the igloos was a game-changer. It shifted our focus to experiential dining."
• Tom James [45:00]: "The AI Chatbot increased our bookings by 36% in its first year."
• Tom James [26:34]: "Introducing 287 changes in 18 months was daunting, but transparency and involving skeptical team members ensured success."
• Tom James [47:22]: "All our decisions have been data-based, ensuring we meet our guests' needs effectively."

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a detailed overview for those who haven't had the chance to listen. Through Tom James' experiences and strategic decisions, listeners gain valuable perspectives on merging technology with traditional hospitality values to enhance customer choice and operational excellence.

Transcript

[A]

Hello and welcome to the Tech on Toast podcast. This is season number 10. It's brought to you by OpenTable. OpenTable is a global leader in restaurant tech, helping more than 60,000 restaurants worldwide fill 1.7 billion seats a year. OpenTable's world class technology empowers restaurants to focus on what matters most, your team, your guests and your bottom line. While enabling diners to discover and book the perfect restaurant for every occasion. With best in class table management software and valuable 24, 7, 365 in person support for restaurants. Why not schedule a demo today and visit opentable.co.uk restaurant-solutions to get started? Enjoy the show. Welcome to the next episode of Tech and Toast podcast and today I'm delighted to be joined by Tom Janes, Managing director from Bills. Tom, how are you?

[B]

I'm very good, thank you. Chris.

[A]

You've just missed our pre chat about diy.

[B]

I know, I know.

[A]

Basically we talked about being blind, doing DIY and nearly killing our children, which is just. I think we've reached middle age, my friend.

[B]

That would genuinely be. If anyone wants to give me a punishment, it is to build for furniture. Like nothing makes me angry.

[A]

But you'll do it though, won't you?

[B]

Yeah, well, I have no choice. Yeah. I have a lovely but very forceful wife.

[A]

Me too. So she's not Welsh, is she?

[B]

No, she's Irish.

[A]

But yeah, I just had the weekend of building some, some new bedside cabinets and I, I just wouldn't let it beat me and Joe, my daughter did. I love her to bits but she, you know when you snap off, you know if you accidentally snap one of the bits in the wood.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then it's.

[B]

That's it. Yeah, it's gone.

[A]

She stepped on it and broke it. I just looked at her and she's left the room. She kind of just backed out the room slowly and I was just like, yeah, I can see how people go over the edge now.

[B]

There needs to be some middle aged version of Survivor where they put a load of mid-40s guys and make them do furniture because I think that is as angry as I ever get building flat back furniture.

[A]

Nothing to do labor, food cost nothing. It's flat pack furniture.

[B]

I have to tell all the family to go out. It's one of those, I cannot be disturbed because it's so intense, the concentration.

[A]

So yeah, yeah, very quickly I replaced the TV on a wall with my father in law about 10 years ago and he said I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll drill the Drill through the wall. And he drilled through the main, the electric mains and this little puff of smoke just popped through the plasterboard. And he was like. He was like, right, what we're gonna do. And he put. He reached down. He's Welsh so he's made of different stuff. He just reached down to the wall, pulled up the cables and like welded them. Someone lives in that house now. I'm just.

[B]

You're gonna read about it.

[A]

Yeah, they're still alive. I drove past every week I just drive past. Just the check, it's still there. Anyway, Tom, look, lovely to have you in appreciate. End of your day. Yeah, no problem. And it's been. It' a busy time. Right. Bills have been doing lots of stuff. Tell us a little bit about your. Before we get into bills, let's talk about your journey and how you got to this point.

[B]

So I suppose a standard hospitality job. 16 got a job collecting glasses in local pub. And I think the first real step up, I suppose in. In hospitality was with Henry J. Beans. You're probably too young to remember.

[A]

No, I know Broad street next door to the revolution.

[B]

Yeah, it was. I did my training there and I actually I went. I started as a bartender in Bristol and then worked up through the ranks in Henry J. Beans and got up to as my first general manager role.

[A]

They were great, weren't they? I don't know why. Did they quite specialist in cocktails or not?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean it was. It was two bars in Bristol then on Whiteley's Road and it was us in a place called Henry Africa's and they were like the two. The investment in training. Talking about sort of lessons you learned. Now I always remember, you know, I was a bartender and the training manager came down from London for two days to do an assessment before I was allowed on the bar. And that investment was three months before I was allowed on the bar. And then he came down and did a two day assessment over a weekend to see whether I could take. I always remember had to take a thousand pounds on Station 5 on a Saturday night. And I was.

[A]

College was the same 12 weeks training.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You wouldn't get. You could not. Assistant manager, whatever role you were, you didn't get on the 12. That's a long time. Hard rock was the same 12 weeks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So yeah. It's interesting, isn't it, how that's shrunk.

[B]

Shrunk now to the detriment actually of both the team. I was bought in from that moment in terms of, you know, obviously went to Sort of uni. Classic story where you start doing uni and then fall in love with bars and the bright lights of social that goes around it. Exactly. And all that stuff. So then decided it was one of those, do I finish my degree or I've been offer bar manager. And, yeah. Took the bar manager role and sort of. And went from there. But it was. It was amazing as a sort of grounding. I always remember my first sort of general manager meeting. I was really nervous. We had to come down to London and. And meet Douglas, who is the CEO. And it was a sort of barely Scottish guy. Really absolutely lovely. And sort of said, oh, your P and L's fantastic. I won't do the accent. P and L's fantastic. I nearly did. He's like, P and L's fantastic. And I remember thinking at the time, I don't have a clue, like, about P and L. All you focused on was the team and the guest and the P and L was just an output. And then, you know, months later, someone explained how that worked and you went, oh, actually, we're doing really well. But it was just amazing that there wasn't that financial pressure. Obviously different times in terms of the industry, you know how the cost base and all that stuff. But it was just obsessive with the product.

[A]

You do wonder, though, if. If we behave like that again with the current pressures.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What the output might be.

[B]

Well, I think that's been a key thing. We've taken into. Into bills when we kind of started and we'll sort of get on to that. Is really going back to what is the most. Why are we here in hospitality? And. And yes, it is to make money, but profitability is an output of all the other elements of hospitality. And if you lose focus on the guests and the team, you don't have a business.

[A]

Yeah, it's super interesting. And the brands you're talking about and that in that time were just great. I mean, we used to. I think we used to use Henry J Beans as our after party. So we used to finish work and that was. We'd finished at 2 in the morning. So you were.

[B]

Birmingham had a 4am License. Bristol was only 11 o' clock. And they used to be sort of. I remember all the managers in Henry Beans always used to be jealous of working in Bristol because. Because you'd finish at 11. So you were on a Friday, Saturday night, foreign. Yeah, exactly. At Birmingham, you were getting home at sort of half six, sort of broken.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So I remember that sort of training was about to baptism of fire.

[A]

Do you remember the name of the manager in Birmingham or not?

[B]

It's a guy called Bobby. He was a little guy called Bobby. Yeah. And he was super 992001 to 2004. 4 or 5. I was there when I was there. Yeah. The general manager called Bobby and actually my. My GM in Bristol was Ryan Jacobites who. Who obviously involved in pasture F1. He's been on the Scott. Yeah. So I've always kept in touch with him. He was. When I joined he was. I was on the bar. He was my bar manager and then he was my GM and I had my first management position. So yeah, we knew each other well. Wow.

[A]

This industry is so inseparable. I know.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

I love it. So what happened after Henry J.

[B]

Beans? Where'd you go? I kind of tried out a load of independence. I went over to Jersey for two years, worked for Jersey Brewery, did restaurants. Then I came back and worked for Revolution and did a year at Revolution in Bristol as well and absolutely love that. Again, that was fast and that was amazing. And sort of talking about what you take from. From that from their recognition and reward and Buy in was next level too. Obviously. Henry Bean's amazing, the training but the trips. You know, I was there for a year and we went to New York huge staff refs were the best. Man. It was incredible.

[A]

I genuinely think that, you know how everyone looks at Hawksmoor and all these guys and you know, and they're like. They lord. Back then revs were probably. I mean I think were top of the tree like. And you couldn't really pinpoint absolute shambles was a good reason which was their.

[B]

Yeah. Remember that thing used to sort me.

[A]

Out no matter what mood I was in. I had that. I felt. I felt better.

[B]

It fixed everything, didn't it?

[A]

It was my. It was literally my. It was solving a big relationship issue I was in at the time. But yeah, but they. They had a knack that. Who thinks it was. Was it Roy?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I went for an interview with Revolution.

[B]

Roy obviously now doing Mission Mouse. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And they took me to an interview in Manchester Locks and I went downstairs and they had like. They were cartwheeling across the bar doing shots and I was just like, what is this place? But yeah, they were insane. Insane.

[B]

It was so much fun. But the. The buy in in terms of the team. So that. That was the. The real thing in terms every week was an incentive. You were always. It was fun and you were really well rewarded. You know you could win it's probably before PlayStations, but it was. Whatever it was then Sony Warp was PS1 maybes and trips. Yeah, yeah. But it was. It was just total buying and so you were gunning for it as a team and it was so much fun. But I think that was the point. We sort of hit you like twenties and getting home at six in the morning, having lots of fun. Where then I sort of said, all right, I'm going to do restaurants, I.

[A]

Just going to pivot over here. They finish earlier.

[B]

Exactly. It's going to be. Well, it was more sort of. It was just going to be a short life if you're kind of doing five days a week. That's exactly why I love Hard Rock. Yeah. And if too much fun's possible, it genuinely was that and sort of say, right, I'm gonna have to. To settle down. I can't be doing this when I'm 35, 40. And you wouldn't look as good as you do now. Oh, it's very kind. I think it's good lighting. But, but. And then. And then Jamie's came along and. And Simon Blagden, who'd obviously been. He'd been running Bristol. Running Browns in Bristol, actually. And I joined to be GM Bath, which was the second site and that was. I'd done restaurants in Jersey, but that was again, the training and the investment in food.

[A]

You guys were a problem for me.

[B]

Yeah, well, because there was a lot of rivalry.

[A]

Yeah. Because you were. I mean, we were great, but you guys were in like another. It was like this, like a really shiny, big college shoes on steroids kind of thing. That's what it felt like to me as an area. I literally used to look at my site in Cardiff and then look at yours and go. I hate them because.

[B]

Good.

[A]

Because there's so many great. And a lot of the great people I'd work with in Cardiff, for instance, all ended up at Jamie's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sarah Cruz. I mean, not Sarah Cruz, sorry, lady called Jackie, who I think we know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think there was a Cath Napton. All these. All these girls I used to work with who means nothing to anyone listening in, but they were like your go to people on the road. Yeah, they all went to Jamie's.

[B]

We. We were unpopular when we did new openings because you were literally getting the. Every sort of town you went into, getting the best of the rest of the wait stuff and chefs. And I look back on those. I did Bath and then I always wanted to go back to Cardiff, which is sort of hometown and did the Cardiff opening and the talent in that restaurant. What's been amazing is following everyone's journey.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't think I'll ever get that again in casual dining. In terms of. If I look at that kitchen team, you know, the sort of your Saturday night a team, they've all gone on to have incredible careers in food and hospitality and the same front of house and it was. It was really special.

[A]

I think that's one of the things we may have lost as well. I totally agree. I just. Chris Paul was in here before. I don't know.

[B]

Chris. Yeah.

[A]

Chris was my boss for a while at colleges before I got promoted. And I was saying, I was meeting you, we were talking about the old days and he said, look at all that team we had at the senior team at that time. Look what they're all doing now, all running their own businesses, Maryland, whatever they might be. And I just wonder if that. Because they did, you know, when people disperse and they've been very successful. I wonder if that still happens from where we are now in the industry.

[B]

I don't. I don't.

[A]

Why. Maybe it's a different world, as you say.

[B]

I don't know. The opportunities through pop up street food, social media. I don't know if actually working for one of the brands or the chains has that same appeal. No, exactly. And you've got other. Other avenues to sort of earn your stripes and go from there. But it was. That was an amazing.

[A]

Were you the GM in Bath?

[B]

I was GM in Bath and then GM in GM and Cardiff. Yeah. The first year in Bath was Collectors.

[A]

Open then or not? Because I met underneath you, didn't we?

[B]

Yeah. You opened while I. I think I'd moved to Cardiff by the. I think you might have been 2009. We knew you were coming. I had. I knew you were opening because Antonio Carluccio came in and gave me a roasting about how it should be doing all the dishes better. And then. And then made me phone Gennaro.

[A]

Yeah, well, Gennaro, if anyone doesn't know, Gennaro, Antonio were great friends and although very competitive, but Antonio took me up to the deli in Jamie's when we'd open colleges. Underneath you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he took me upstairs and he said, chris, I want to talk you through the deli. And I was like, well, the deli's over here. And he went, no, no, not, not ours, Jamie's. And I was like, oh, no, I don't think we should do that. And he said, no, no, no, Gennaro's, it's fine. So Gennaro was in the bill and they argued across in front of.

[B]

I think. Well, I, I was there. So we must have been the two guys standing in the background looking very sheepish as, as the two Italians were.

[A]

Going head to head buying. I think it was olives or something and she was like scooping them into her. Or the member of staff was scooping them into the bowl for her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's like, they're shit, they're shit. Antonio's better than yours.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, oh my God, just buy the olives.

[B]

I know.

[A]

So, yeah, but it was very funny.

[B]

I thought it was going to turn into like a bare fisted fight, didn't you, on the floor? But it was, yeah, because I remember I took the food over to Antonio and he was like, what, what pasta have you used? Fresh pasta. Yeah. You should not be using fresh pasta with this sauce. It should be a dry pasta to absorb some more sauce. And I was like, ah. And then Chef.

[A]

Oh, it's your main.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And then Gennaro was in the building and I remember that this is going to be. I'm going to step out of this one and let those two guys.

[A]

But you know, those kind of characters, that kind of passion that was around those two brands was just brilliant. Right. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

[B]

I genuinely think it was life changing for a lot of people who were in at that time in terms of, you know, gave them a passion and a love for food. You were working with so many talented, dedicated people.

[A]

Insane.

[B]

And, you know, and everyone as they do in hospitality, you all keep in touch and now they're all over the world, all doing great things and it was, it was, yeah, game changing for me in terms of, you know, I went from being interested in food and liking food to then that obsession where, you know, you sort of took it to the next level and then loved.

[A]

It was Bill's after it Jamie's or did you.

[B]

No, no, no, I did. So I left Jamie's 2013 and then joined, I did Copper Club. So various eateries, which has got Strada and Copper Club and it was. Hugh Osman had recently bought Strada and had just developed Copper Club and then was growing Copper Club and some of the strata sites converted to coppers and that was, that was again, that was a completely different journey with loads of lessons there where copper was a sort of all day casual dining. Great brown. Yeah. And. And then it had this nuclear light bulb moment which we were just talking about earlier where, you know, he was really passionate about outside space and the best use of that in terms of the British, you know, he'd always said the British love sitting outside. We've just got to create an. Where they can do that 365 days a year rather than seven. And that was where the igloos happened and that. I was ops director at the time.

[A]

Before your time. Before the time.

[B]

Before the time, yeah, before sort of COVID and you know, everyone had these kind of outdoor pods.

[A]

It was the first to market after the smoking ban.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But it was, it was a real lesson in terms of the power of that shift to experiential dining. And actually good food and drink wasn't enough anymore. You needed to give something else especially and hype and managing hype and living up to expectations. And it literally, I remember it was like. Well, I imagine the first time that the igloos went live. Luckily I wasn't involved in the Oasis ticket sales, but I imagine it was a similar. Where we just kind of watched the numbers come through and our booking, booking agents I can't remember using at the time. We're just like, we'd never, you know, it crashed, crashed the system when the igloos went low and they're just like. We've never seen this level of demand and we had to get in one of the queue management, you know like they use for concerts and all that stuff to manage. Manage the igloos. But was nuts. And that was great. And then then actually I sort of decided I wanted to do something different. I'd always set these kind of milestone goals I want to achieve and sort of buy 40. I wanted to experience as much in the industry and then really decide what wanted to do. So I did hotels for three years. Yeah. Harbour hotels. So many Southwest based, so independent sort of family room that had 11 hotels. And that was fascinating in terms of learning. And I'd sort of come in, was super passionate about F and B and it was really to the F and B side. And then I remember, you know, my first week, the owner sort of said, look, you're not gonna be able to do hotels unless you learn hotels. And I know, you know, you're here to do F and B, but you need to run three, four of these hotels and get into that and that again sort of. I'm quite geeky with models and modeling and the mechanics and I was in my first few weeks I was really frustrated to go, why aren't people passionate about Food and drink, because. And then you saw the numbers behind the hotels and you just now going, well, totally understand why, you know, selling.

[A]

Two rooms, a supplementary service.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. It's so much effort for so little payoff. And that. That sort of lesson of focus on what's important, you know, selling two rooms the same as doing 60 covers, 60 extra covers in a night. And so I did that for three years and all the way through the pandemic. And that actually, the pandemic was. Was tough for obviously everyone in the industry and everyone who's passionate about working and loves the industry, you know, sitting at home for sort of three, four, horrible. And I remember when it was that. That first summer where it kind of broke and you could do stuff and. And I actually went down to Padstow to help out there. They didn't have a restaurant manager and it's obviously been sort of. Where is it in Padstow? It's kind of behind on the hill overlooking this evening as you come down the sharp end. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. An absolute nightmare to try and park and it is that really tight bent. No, there's a small car park outside.

[A]

The hotel and the access is that road, doesn't it, where the.

[B]

Literally onto the dock you can go. Yeah, you kept driving down, you end up. Rick Stein's got a fish and chip shot down there and you sort of end up down there, literally there two weeks ago. So was there. It's lovely. I. I still. I've only just. I don't know if I talk about speeding fines, but that was. The nightmare down there is they had this section of road that. That is. Oh, I know that it goes from 70 down to 50 just for like a mile. Just for no reason whatsoever.

[A]

There is a reason.

[B]

And I. I know, I know. I did one trip and got three. Three separate tickets. And then I had to go to the Cornish magistrates to sort of say, look, this is really air, don't worry. Well, we had a long conversation about I can't take nine points. And it was. It all worked out well. But that was. That was amazing because I think it's quite nice when you sort of career where you've been director level. And that was just back to floor. That was. Run the restaurant for, you know, sort of break from furlough. There's no strategy going on. Run the restaurant for the summer. And it was. It was a real lesson for me that I think served well in terms.

[A]

And also the West, I find. I don't know what it is about the west working in The West. That's about my career. I spent all in the west and I really. The people I don't know, I just really enjoyed it. I think the people who I work with were more loyal. I don't want to say harder working. That's not fair. But different.

[B]

Different ethics, I suppose, throughout all my time in hospitality, you know when you get sort of team engagement surveys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

North and the west are always the highest by mile in terms of guest experience, team satisfaction. Much more challenging. I mean, obviously it's a much more transient and there's much more competition. But you, you meet these amazing teams, you know, who've been there years and years. Yeah.

[A]

Generations of families in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Dorset. I had like, I think mother, daughter, grandma in one restaurant. It was mental.

[B]

I love all those stories, though. It makes your life easy because it. You don't have to force the culture, it's just there naturally as well. And.

[A]

Yeah, and then it's just about putting great leaders in front of these people. Yeah, no, it's fantastic. And. And after the hoot, did you go. And then you.

[B]

Harbour was then Bills. So that was. I did harbour up until 2021 and then joined Bills. Joined Bills as Ops director and then did a year Ops director, which is probably the best sort of cheat mode for being an MD ever to. So to get a year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In the trenches, working with the teams.

[A]

And what trenches you would have walked into, I imagine. Yeah, 21.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it was. It was. Everyone had a tough exit from. From COVID as well, but it was. There was lots to do. But what was really encouraging was, you know, I sort of. I came into it with open eyes. I'd always loved Bill's, the brand. Similar to your story actually, with Carluccio's in Cardiff when Bill. Bill's opened probably a year and a half after, after we'd been running the Jamie's in Cardiff.

[A]

The corner one.

[B]

Yeah, on the corner there, which is still there. Still. Still cracking fantastically. It was still in our top three. It's great, really. Yeah.

[A]

Always full.

[B]

Yeah, it does. And then obviously sort of match days and events and stuff. Cardiff's is a good town, you know.

[A]

15 years.

[B]

But it's. It's always done. But I remember going in there sort of, you know, day three, day four, because you check out the new places and that jealousy of going, how do they find somebody? Nice people. They hadn't poached any of our team, which was lovely. They found some really, really nice people and it was exactly the same. Walking back in. In 2021, where you went, there was some. There was lots to work on and lots to do, but. But the grassroots was there. There were you sort of going to the restaurant and I was expecting to be shocked and just going, right, there's. There's definitely some opportunity and things we need to do, but the teams are lovely. And it was. It was then coming up with that plan into what we're going to do to get it right.

[A]

I think Bill's always had. I've actually putting together a. A panel of people for this event. We do Brew Dog and it's about magic dust, the differentiator between why and the haves and the have nots. Right. In terms of restaurant brands. And it. It's never about the hard. The way how hard you work. It's more about. There's something about these brands and Bills was. I think Bills was one of them. When they popped up around the Carlucha era, when we were back in doing our old roles, there was something about the earthiness of them and they felt like a community restaurant because that's what they were born from.

[B]

Right, Totally. And you know, Bill's use that so superior analogy. It's got such an amazing, authentic origin story in Bill, you know, who's still involved with the business still.

[A]

Like Antonio just every day for his whiskey.

[B]

No, no, no. But Bill's. I mean, now he's sort of less involved in the. The upside day to day, but so much involved in design interiors, which is something he's really, really passionate look and feel. And then he's a really good cultural benchmark for us in terms of, you know, he is a. He's a incredibly kind, generous, friendly guy. And that's actually. That's been one of the easy steps, is just capturing that and it's always had it. It's always been there and it's so authentic because he's there and you sort of. You know, we do heritage days now where all new managers, when they join, they go down to Lewis and spend a day with Bill and it's that, you know, it's like we used to have a Jamie's that instant win because they all come back, say, I get it. You know, to be able to do that in your first week and go, I get what you're trying to say.

[A]

Yeah. For anybody listening, I think who got a restaurant brand or whatever you're doing, getting someone to be excited about you and your brand is so simple. If you get it right in the first.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Hard Rock was sentenced to. I mean, it's a bit sends to the States or whatever, but still, even ask restaurants. When I started there, it was all about the culture and understanding Adam and Sam at the start. And it's just that, that and Carlucci sent us to Italy on wine trips and all the kind of stuff you would have experienced. Literally, I was like, I'd run through walls for them.

[B]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

And maybe that's my character, but I.

[B]

Think you're the same once you're in. You're in like, in terms of. And we've spoken a lot about loyalty and, you know, there's no question that now teams ask more questions for all the right reasons and they're harder to win trust. But to get them to have that in our locker in Bills is to be able to go totally authentic, totally genuine. When we say everyone is happy and it could look like something just companies say, and it's a mission statement. But then you go and spend that day and you meet Bill and you go, oh, no. You know that they totally. That is. That is what.

[A]

What's down is that visualization of reality, isn't it? When it. When you get to meet the guy. That's why I loved in the pod, because you meet these people behind the brands and the people who work in the brands, you're like, okay, I get it. This is why they are like, they are because they're led by this person or because they built this kind of tech or whatever it might be. So, yeah, it's super interesting for me to understand the why behind the what. And I think, I mean, you've probably been like that as well, right? Obsessing with why. Why do we do that? I was like that. I was that kid.

[B]

Oh, totally. And it's really interesting because we, you know, one of the big things when we sort of took the MD role is you'd seen all the opportunities and the things you want to tweak and the changes you want to make. And it's always that, I think problem or challenge with, you know, a legacy brand, a brand that's been around for over 15 or 20 years now since. I know, scary, isn't it? But you go, we're going to have to do this much change. And you know, as I'm sure lots of people have said before, change is difficult to get buy in from from teams, you know, operators, waiters, GMs, chefs. They are successful because they come up with a system and they work and they follow that routine. And consistency is absolute key, especially in casual dining. And Then you're going, we want to do all the. We had a list of 287 things we wanted to implement in the next 12 months. And was that like you.

[A]

Were you serious? 200.

[B]

It was, it was. We sat down in, in myself and the senior team and you sort of, you know, when we got the, when I got the MD role, sat down with Ben, the ops director and the rest of the senior team, people director, marketing director. And he said, right, let's go through. Let's get forensic on every aspect of the business and say, what could we do better? This is what we want to achieve in the next 18 months. And then it was one of those. We thought It'd be like 15, 20.

[A]

Yeah, me too.

[B]

And then it just started spiraling because you start talking about things and then one thing leads to another. And you know, it was, it was the menu, it was how long we served breakfast and brunch for. It was uniforms. It was absolutely every. Then you start getting into financials and you sort of go through every. Who's this supplier? What do we pay them for? What do they do? How do we do this? And it was, yeah. What started as a three hour meeting ended up being two days and then we're sort of there going, right, so let's prioritize it. And then there was a lot of introduction of technology and changes for there in terms of. I think we were behind the curve on where we should be with our booking system and, and delivery and it just, you know, handhelds and, and ordering. Yeah. What everyone else is.

[A]

I think it's really interesting. That's because that's the bit that I think a lot of people want to tackle but find it difficult. Where do you start? Type thing. Because you look at it and go. It's kind of like a deep breath. It's like, you know, like, that's a lot. Because actually that, that tech piece is. Touches your customers and your staff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like.

[B]

And it would be so simple to unsettle the teams and just knock over the business saying, we're introducing all of this and you know, within a week it's a totally different.

[A]

And probably easier not to. Right.

[B]

Yeah. And say, just leave it.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's. It's expensive, it comes with risk. There might not be buying and you know, some of these things actually, especially with tech builds, had tried before and it had been introduced and not worked for whatever reason before my time. So I can't say. And so it was, no, that doesn't work. For us. And we're like, but everyone's doing it, that there's something in this. And so it was. We knew we wanted to make this man a change. And I think what was then really important was having this core message and really go, if the teams didn't come with us, we lost. And to go from there. And then we doubled down on the looking after the teams and everyone leaves happy in the guest journey. And we sort of pivoted and we changed the bonus schemes, the incentives to go, let's make it all about guest satisfaction and the guests having a good time. And then we've got all these tools. They're going to help you give a better guest experience and look after your teams better and manage your business. Yeah, It's a great way to do it. Yeah. Alongside that, we were like, we have to find the gnarliest, grisliest GMs in the business. The ones who are always like, I don't need this in my business. And they can be the trials and let's work with them. Because if they end up being the ambassadors, a GM who's met me once or twice is always. It's so easy to go, no, this is not going to work for us. You don't understand our business. Whereas if it's a peer who's like, no, seriously, I was skeptical, cynical, but you should try it because it works. And this is. When this happens, does this. And this is what the team said. And. And it was. And we did it. We did all these kind of actions over that 18 months. And what was lovely, I was genuinely nervous because it was a huge amount of change.

[A]

Yeah. And a lot on you, I suppose, because you're in your new role.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You're saying we're doing them. Putting your flag in the sand.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. When we get to all this. And I was incredibly lucky as well, though, because I'd had that year and so there was trust because, you know, because I'd run a region. And so the GMs sort of going, no, no, he. He does get it. Like, he's been there, man. The Vietnam thing. Exactly.

[A]

You don't know, man.

[B]

You weren't there. No, they do understand what I'm talking about. And. And the other thing was that this, the team, the senior team that put together, that had been tweaked and the team, you know, Sasha, who runs our new systems and tech, she was a gm, you know, she was a GM for five years.

[A]

But how cool is that, that you didn't go outside the business?

[B]

Yeah, we've really stuck to that. That's been really. Because the honest answer is the talent. Donna, supervisor. When I first started, she's now head of reservations. The talent was there, but it was that thing of talking to people and getting to know them and finding out what they're passionate about and. And then fanning the flames. And they were totally bought into bills and to the business. But they needed a new challenge that they'd kind of, you know, they'd been through a lot of change and to go from there. And. And it was the same with, you know, the ops. The entire senior ops team hasn't been the director of the RDS. They're collective, like 100 years bills. They've done 10 years, seven years, eight years, nine years. So a lot of that kind of. There was trust with this kind of this.

[A]

Yeah, like a tripodation.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's ptsd, isn't it?

[B]

No, it is.

[A]

You've been through, I think anybody who's operated in any kind of mid market casual dining brand, whatever you want to, premium, dime, whatever, however you want to box it up, you go through purple patches. Right. When things are amazing, everyone's great. But you do have tough times. Just because the nature of the beast. Yeah, because the, the way the world works, unfortunately, hostility feels it first.

[B]

No, definitely. When there's bad times, you see those changes and I think, you know, we've been lucky and it's been part of a plan in terms of we've had a really good run. But you. You always get those times, don't you? And I think what you've seen before is when those times hit the hard times, not to panic, not to go, because you can suddenly get into, you know, people start sniping it, always cutting, whatever.

[A]

Yeah, you know, things.

[B]

I always remember being in a, you know, as ops director, which I still maintain is probably the hardest job in. In hospitality. In terms of your front line, you're strategic, you're still getting in the neck, but everything feeds down to you. It comes down to you.

[A]

It's the maddest role ever, isn't it?

[B]

I'm glad I'm doing the.

[A]

You said that with a smile.

[B]

Well, no, because, I mean, I had 12 years as an art director, but it's. I think you're responsible for everything. You're so heavily influenced. Everything rolls down ultimately to you. And then you have this huge. You know, if you take our business, we're like any business opportunity. We're a restaurant business. You're the voice for 98.9% of the workforce. It all, you know, the pyramid comes up to you and you represent the chefs, the waiters, the kbs at the top table. And then similarly, when things go wrong and sales aren't bad, it's normally the first, the first question is, what is up? What, what's happening? What, What?

[A]

God, I haven't heard that phrase for ages. It's ops and I think obstructors. The problem with obstruct is 1% of the time you get, you get some kudos, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

99% of the time it's your fault.

[B]

Yeah, totally. It's, it's really hard place to be. I couldn't agree.

[A]

But kudos to all those guys and girls doing it. Because that role, I mean, it didn't break me, but it was taking me there. Because if you really care, it's a very hard role to be in because you've got to be thick skinned, you've got to be able to take the rough with the smooth. And I think I struggle with that a little bit because I just wanted to win all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And when you don't, when one little region or one little site isn't winning out of your 99, you're failing.

[B]

No, it's emotionally psychological. It's really tough role because, because you want to win naturally in hospitality. I think most people who come through, whether that's through the back of house or the front of house, you're in it because you like making people happy. That that's your engine. Yeah, it is, totally. And no industry that I know of has the opportunity to, if you're a chef and you know, come back to those jamies, you're cooking 600 meals a day, if they're all great, and people are coming up and saying, chef, that was amazing. That's delicious. Loved it. Same as a waiter, you know, 100 people a day can say to you, that was fantastic. I love, I don't know, an instant gratification role that I can think of.

[A]

And sometimes give you money with it.

[B]

Yeah. That's an added bonus as well.

[A]

My son is learning that right now on his trunk. He's the happiest kid in the world. Yeah. I mean, he's made four grand in the summer.

[B]

O.

[A]

And he's a part time waiter.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

At 17.

[B]

I know, it's insane. I do miss.

[A]

I'm going back on the floor.

[B]

No, no, no, no. But I, I, I do miss it. I genuinely do miss my friend. But you say that, but Every time I'm sort of forced to do it, I got to watch when I say, because, okay, okay, fine, you're on the line. But it's that. That was what was lovely, actually, before doing the builds, of genuinely being back on the floor and remembering a. How hard it is. One of the things, again, you're going to watch me say, being a general manager now is I'd say I'm not going to put a number on it five to ten times harder than when back when I was at gm. The amount of systems talking about tech you now have to manage, and they're all intricate, you know that the tweaks to a booking system that you can make, if you do it really well, where you're sort of dynamic in the week, and that those GMs who are really good, where they'll kind of look at their sales forecast and then look at what they got put in and tweak all that and then you've got your health and safety system. It's tough.

[A]

It's really. We had a panel this morning, we talked and there were some product owners on the panel and the head of people from Pastor Evangelist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Alev Legend. Really, really cool girl. But. But we were chatting about the fact that the tech community lose the optics of what's going on in the operations community. And the problem is. And it's not a dig, it's normal. Right. They haven't. They don't. They're not working in it.

[B]

They don't know.

[A]

No, but that GM role is the role. Right. If you're going to sell in or build a product, build it for those guys because they're the ones who touch. Every day. You have to bloody do a, you know, write a rotor for four weeks, do whatever. I do a budget, do this, do that. Health and safety, fridge checks, you know, you pick one. Right. But they're doing all that and they're going to go run their shift and make sure everyone's doing. And make sure these people turn up.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And a more demanding workforce for all the right reasons as well. In terms of. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's tough. It's definitely tough. And I think that's full of respect.

[A]

We should put all the tech guys who make product. Yeah. In a shift instead.

[B]

No, you should. That's been interesting. Our journey, though, talking about tech, is that we've. We've introduced Uno a lot in. In the last two, three years, whether. Whether that's QR codes, kiosks, kiosk.

[A]

I never thought I'D see that. Yeah, that's great.

[B]

It's. No, we found them super interesting. But what's been really interesting with the tech providers is those tech providers that, you know, we've met loads of people and I'm sure it's the same with most operators. You get spammed, you know, your email. If I go on LinkedIn, there's always someone who's come up with a new system.

[A]

Just don't go on there, mate.

[B]

That will solve this.

[A]

You people should know that problem.

[B]

No, I know, I know, but it's. What's been really interesting meeting those is we always have gone for the two things. One is who understands the brand and what we're trying to achieve and are able to be fluid. You know, the white label product that just gets rebadged, that we're like, yeah, but we like it to do this. Or can we do. It's in the development program, it's in the development pathway. Yeah, the roadmap word. Then that doesn't work. As opposed to. Actually, we can see that's really important for you and actually put a date on it. That's important. But it's that understanding of operations and what the teams need and those. You know, we've got some fantastic partners now who understand us and they're there for openings.

[A]

They're there working for them.

[B]

Right, yeah, gotcha. Yeah, it's.

[A]

Did that come across your head?

[B]

Yeah, but. And that's been really impressive. And actually that's been the difference in terms of who we've wanted to work with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because when they're there in the front line and sort of saying back to us, I understand the frustrations from your team and they actually have relationships. You know, they can say, you know, I spoke to this GM in Newbury and they were saying A, B and C. And what do you think about this? That's so important for the tech companies, I think, to have that personal relationship.

[A]

It's really interesting. It's not a dig or such or anything like that, but I think it's probably the most difficult industry to sell into because of that intricacy that they don't see and understand. And like you're saying GMs working now compared to when we were GMs, very different. We controlled our people. Our food maintenance used to be the biggest thing probably on my list, outside of those two.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

But now I imagine it's so much. Imagine online ordering when I just can't even. Yeah. Like QR codes back in Carluccio. It just seems crazy but it would be there. Right.

[B]

The stress though of kind of. I always remember the only real sort of back in the day was the booking system. When we went.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

I missed the day of the old school book. But when it went from the book to a bookings platform and if that went down, you know, that ruins your day. But now there's five, six, seven different. The QR code doesn't link, discount code doesn't work. Booking system, you know, doesn't link. With this integrations, blah, blah, blah, left, right and center. It's so tough.

[A]

Yeah. And it's literally what it's really. It fills my cup a little bit because the reason we started, if we go we strip back all the reasons to tack onto those things we do. We came to help that problem to simplify the way it works for operators. And we're in the middle of building something to do that. But yeah, the kudos to all those guys. And really what I mean, all you want to do is have a great time and look up the total. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's all you want. And in the middle of all that.

[B]

There'S all of this craziness and that's. That's been the big sell with the tech is that this, you know, the looking at the future and certainly us as a, as a brand and as a business people will never not be the most important thing to, to me personally and to the business. And that's, you know, most people in hospital to say that. But we've got to be aware that the industry is changing. You're seeing that with the rapid growth of QSR delivery of obviously expanding rapidly. I think the most interesting thing though is how the guest profile is changing in terms of. There has never been a more diverse guest in terms of their needs. Whether that's allergens, dietary, how they want to order. You know, some are totally. Would prefer to order through technology and use that and not have that interaction with. Whereas you can have next on the sex table the polar opposite to go I will will not touch.

[A]

And you know what's even more complex? I actually think that person who's ordering changes that complexity depending on how they're feeling.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, literally.

[A]

So if I'm dining here, if I'm eating here at Brewdog on a working day, when I'm podcasting, I'll go through the online ordering, I'll go through the table ordering because I don't really want to kind of hang out with anyone, just want to work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But on another day here with A friend. I'll definitely want to wait. It's chat to and kind of. So I, I agree. I think the customer is making it super complicated and the problem we have is that the tech is there y to fix that problem, but there's a, a million things in between that need to happen.

[B]

I think the journey we've been on is to go, you know, the. These sort of. We started probably a year ago saying what does build look like in 2025, 2026? And then having that as the sort of milestone and what we want to. And the honest answer for us it's, you need to give the guest all the options and then leave it up to them, you know, in terms of if they want to have full waiter service with the same as we've spoken about, you know, really well informed, friendly, engaging waiters, that's there. That's an option as well. If they'd like to order through QR code, if they'd like to go to the bar, if they'd like to use. And then these other, you know, kiosks have been really interesting for us because the kiosk came about from. We knew we wanted to look at different service styles and wanting to have, you know, the option of QR code or order at the bar. But then you were looking at that problem which, which happens quite. In quite a few places. We had to order the bars. Even looking at our sort of local pub, a lot of people, depending on day of the week demographic, want to order at the bar. And then you're five deep at the bar. You've got all the QR codes, you've got an area where you can have table service as well. But how do you take the pressure off of the bar and the bartender? And that was these kiosks. Much more subtle than sort of the big.

[A]

Yeah, we're not talking.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. These are the size of a tabletop, like an iPad mini. They just sit on there and it just gives you the option to go.

[A]

Who would have said bills and kiosks?

[B]

If you told me that nine, four.

[A]

Years ago, you would have laughed, right?

[B]

No, no way. It was, it was very organic, very rustic, but I think you can do it. Yeah. And that's the whole. And when you see them, they're very subtle. They sit on the bar. They're not sort of big garish barriers and, and it's. They are there to use them if you want to. It's not, you know. Well, the bar team won't ever say you Go up to order and he'll say, right, yeah, order on the kiosk, please. It's not. Not bad at all. It's just there as an option. If you're going up, order a couple of pints and you're in a rush and there's two people ordering, you know, for a table of 11, you can just put your table number in, put your beers in, go and sit down and we'll bring them over to you. So it's presenting all those options and I think that's definitely going to be the direction of travel for us.

[A]

And have you got much. How much data you're getting, I suppose, in terms of how that's working for you? We did. I mean, we did. We did a case study with him playing here. We did a case study recently, but it was in. It was really. I was really shocked at some of the numbers. You were.

[B]

We've not done a hard sell on any of it. It's sort of very much presented it. Newbury in St Albans is a sort of cafe bar concept. Slightly different in terms of. There are clear zones where you have to use it and the design sort of fits in. But actually, you know that the. We're opening two sites before Christmas, so Milton Keynes and. And street. And they're very much hybrids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just November. Got two openings in November.

[A]

Of course you have.

[B]

Yeah. It should be good just to. To get that street.

[A]

Is the.

[B]

Is that near Bristol Clark's village? Yeah, down in summer we did one, so. Yeah, yeah, there was carnage as well. Yeah, Absolutely fantastic. It's one of those, like, Cheshire Oaks.

[A]

That type of vibe.

[B]

Yeah, I sort of Retail park.

[A]

Yeah. But.

[B]

But it's. There's not a lot round for the 20 miles around it, so it's the place.

[A]

Yeah, it's very much a cat. Yeah. Yeah, we did. We did. Really? I don't know, I think we opened it in. I can't remember now, but I remember doing. It was under my patch at that point, but yeah, it was busy.

[B]

I'm really excited about that. And then they do some really cool stuff, you know, like they have their ice rink at what they do in Cardiff at Winter Wonderland and all that stuff. They do a big ice rink down there and we. We'll. We'll be open beginning December, so, yeah, looking. Looking forward. And then Milton Keynes as well. It's going to be good.

[A]

Thanks for opening in December. I know, it's so weird opening that time of year. Right. Because you obviously, you come out the blocks, you're busy New opening. Plus you've got the Christmas push and you're in a shopping district. So it's going to be all of that and above. Thank you boss.

[B]

We. We are building up like you know. You know when you sort of build up your. Your Avengers team ready to go down and support is to say not only got the whole team there and the opening team, there's a support team as.

[A]

Well because it absolutely love it. I think it'd be amazing because you know you've only got so much capacity any. Right, you can follow your full. Yeah, I used to have that phrase. I used to say to openings people all the time when you're fully full. Yeah, But Chris is 400 people waiting outside. But it's. When you come to January it's such a weird comedown off the back of those things. But you might not because you're gonna.

[B]

I think it's January sales. Danny's always. Always quite, quite good for us anyway. We do quite a deep sort of January offer in January's. You know it. It's never busy anywhere but. But we. We tend to have quite a good back because Christmas is. Is. It's big for everyone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Christmas is massive for us and there's always quite a decent bounce back.

[A]

Did you do shelving what we call shelf and book. Do you do like sources and all that kind of stuff as well? Bills. Do you do like a merchandise?

[B]

Like merchandise. No bills. Used to have a little section. Yeah, very much. Used to do some of olives. Bill's chili jam. I think there's still. There's still a few of those kicking about.

[A]

I used to love that part. That was Carl Leaches at Christmas. Right.

[B]

Oh, you guys. Panettones were just.

[A]

We used to have pop up shops and cribs and all over the place but used to make a fortune.

[B]

Yeah, well we. We introduced it actually. Probably off the back of your success in Carluccio. So was it called Damien? He used to work. Damien Verdun. Yeah. Yeah and he worked. He came to Jamie's. Jamie's. Yeah. And we introduced them actually.

[A]

That wasn't popular.

[B]

Were tough as a gym.

[A]

I went down because. No, I mean when he went to.

[B]

Gym I can imagine that the internal.

[A]

Simon Kossoff was not happy but. Yeah, it was interesting.

[B]

But we did that. And merchandise I think is one of those. We were talking about it actually in terms of living. It's the. I think if you do it, you've got to go full investment. It's got to be brilliant.

[A]

Yeah, it's Going to be full.

[B]

Yeah. Full shelf, always well stocked, great products and all that stuff. And we've got enough sort of bubbling under at the moment. Look at that. But I fit so well with the brand and it did, it really does.

[A]

Because as I said, the start. You only look at Clarkson's farm at the moment.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's doing so well on Amazon, all that kind of. And he's built his little shop. I think it's really interesting and I do think there's, as you mentioned, the experiential market and buying and brands you love. Being able to be part of it is super important these days.

[B]

So, yeah, I think it's one of those. Watch this space.

[A]

Yeah. Guys, in your new site, at Christmas I built you a deli.

[B]

I wouldn't do that. We have it. We have enough on the place at.

[A]

The moment and how. And the tech journey's been interesting. Right. Because you've tried all this stuff and you. It's part of your 287 things.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Was it a huge pattern?

[A]

It was it. And I think. Are you happy with the results or what have you learned from the results? I suppose, because that's, you know, this isn't about the product names or any of those people. It's more about are bills benefiting or do you feel like your people or your guests are benefiting?

[B]

Yeah. So I think there's sort of all those different levels of tech from. If you take. The first real thing to attack was reservations. We're using a bookings platform that's quite popular in a number of restaurants and it's great. And we're still using them now. But we had that very sort of specific issue where we were. You could book online up to six and then you would. Over six. You'd find a res team and then most people, you know, nearly. It was 42% actually at the time were booking through the phoning up the reservations team. But we had a real problem with capacity in terms of, you know, at 10:30 on a Saturday, that's when most people, they sort of wake up, say, let's get a bills, have some brunch, go shopping, whatever. And we couldn't cope with demand. You know, you were seeing that was so much demand in terms of calls coming through, but we weren't able to put. Process that volume of bookings. And then Christmas, I think the first Christmas doing there was. Was a really similar. Similar issue. And that was a sort of first big call for me was we. We were talking about putting in an AI Chatbot to. Rather than sort of phone someone up. It was all done through the chatbot. No demand issues, but super intuitive in terms of. We're working. We ran it as a trial. We saw all the questions that people were asking and. And now it's really good if you want to find out if you can bring in your dog or see the kids menu and all that stuff. You type it and it feels like someone's talking to you. And that was. Bookings went up 36% year one, just from that change there. And there was quite a lot of. You know, I was super nervous that day when we sort of turned off. Turned off the phone lines and went, we're doing it all through, through this, this online chatbot and let's see how it goes. And it was some tense moments, but it was. It's. The technology is there and that's the whole point. It was. You could justify it because the guest experience is better. You are now able to book up to 20 people. You can book your parties, you can see all the menus you want. There's no demand issues. You don't struggle to get through or get the answer you want.

[A]

It's interesting because I think people forget sometimes the pressure on the person making that decision.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As you were saying, I was like, jesus, that's a. That's a big one. Because you know you can get it wrong.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And quite innocently get it wrong.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you've got no real evidence, have you, to prove it?

[B]

No.

[A]

Either way. And your peers, competitors are probably going to give you too much information around what they're having success over. So it really is a kind of a. Not a guess, but not far off.

[B]

No. It's got to be an educator. Well, I think another thing that sort of super proud of is it's all been. The decisions we've made have been data based.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the importance of data. I mean, everyone speaks about it now, but hospitality has got a natural leaning to make decisions based on preference and anecdote. You see that quite a lot. I like this. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've got this feeling and great. If that's the starting point, something you think you should do. But there are now reams and reams of data and actually introducing really good CRM systems as we've now got. We've never had so much more information from what our guests want, why they want it, what to do and being super analytical with that information. You know, we did a massive menu change in 2022. Very much taking, you know, what, what Bills. Why do people come to us? What do they like, what dishes they like, what do they want to see? What's the price point that they're happy to pay? What's this work in the market and, and not doing it on. On anecdote and gut and sentiment and nostalgia, but really making, you know, big data led decisions and letting that form the basis and menu and then working through that. That's been really useful. And everything the data was saying, it's the same with the introduction of, you know, qr. It's been around for ages. QR code.

[A]

Everyone just keeps reforming and coming back.

[B]

Exactly. But then, but then looking at actually what the guest wants and we've done those tweaks. It's why we did the trials of the cafe bars where you sort of said, we went into it saying, this is how we'd like it to work. And actually the guests said, no, we want all the options everywhere. We don't want a space where it's just QR code here or just table space.

[A]

Yeah. Because you're making us do something. You're forcing us into a place. Yeah.

[B]

And it's. And it's having to make. I think that's the other thing. If you're coming somewhere to relax, you don't want to make so many decisions. You know, there's something. I've always found it, and maybe I'm wrong. I always have this debate with waiters and hosts in terms of. I always find it stressful. When you turn up to a restaurant, someone says, where would you like to sit? So I haven't been in before. I like it kind of. And I'm sitting there with my guest. I'd like you to.

[A]

I was liking it. Going to someone's house. Right. For dinner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. You didn't walk into. Where do you want to go? I don't know, mate.

[B]

Exactly. Do you want to come through here? Do you want to sit in the garden? Do you tell me where to go to, take me to what you think is best and then I might on the way say, oh, I'd love to.

[A]

Well, that's my wife.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Actually, even though you've sat us here and we've waited 27 minutes, we now want to sit in that window over there. That's dirty.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. Yeah.

[B]

So I think it's that whole, you know, using days to make decisions, finding the tech that understands and will work with you. But it's. Is it better for the guest? You know, quite often you make decisions to go. We might be solving A problem for us. But we're putting that pressure.

[A]

That's a real easy thing to fall into. Right. Isn't it? In terms of you're looking at a problem that you're having internally and it's costing you money potentially and costing you churn maybe in people, whatever it might be. And then you make the change. You solve your problem and then the guest is. And then you're losing guests. And then your other problem starts again from another angle.

[B]

No, exactly.

[A]

Yeah. It's very scary.

[B]

That's just a downward spiral. And it's. It's sort of. I think saw that a little bit in. In when sort of casual dining was struggling actually in the mid teens as well. Was. Was that a lot of those. Everyone was focusing on the bottom line, the cost line. And it's. There's nowhere back from that. You know, the product suddenly gets worse. You're not in a good experience and that's it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're done.

[A]

Literally over. And car leaches went through that. Definitely. We. We tried to rip apart our labor model mid teens.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And looked at it and went right. How do we. And we literally measured how to chop a cucumber.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All this kind of stuff. And while we were doing that, no one was looking at the gas.

[B]

No.

[A]

Or the people. It was just. Yeah. And it was just like this. You turn around in six months. Like what the. Even my best sites were like flailing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I said how.

[B]

And that's it. It's a death spiral.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's the minute you get into that. And that doesn't mean you can't be efficient and look at. But the decision needs to be. And that's why it's been really nice having this, you know, sentiment, if you like as a brand of everyone needs happy is to say we want to make this decision. And then it goes through the filters. Is it going to upset the guests? Is it going to upset the team? What can we do? Let's speak to them on the team. Do make a decision. Yes. No. What does the data say? We can make the decision. Great. To go from there. And it is a longer process and we're lucky in terms of. There's a very clever chap who's our head of commercial finance who constantly gets emails and texts me saying, can I have this in the next five minutes? Or we're thinking of doing this. And. And he's great. And that. But it's. It gives you the confidence. Not.

[A]

Not cfr, but that role where someone's sense checking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your but operational kind of mind, where you're saying, I think we could do this and this would make money.

[B]

And he's like, prove to me why we can't, is this sort of question. It's like the sort of, you know, when you're looking at trying rugby, it's like the on field decision is this find me evidence to prove it's wrong. But yeah, he's, again, he was a chef, you know, 10 years ago, was a break for chef and so understands the business, understands the psychology of the kitchens. And so when you're making this operational, to have that filter of saying, well, the data says this, I think this will happen. And from my operational knowledge, you've got to be wary of this. It's been. It allows you to make much better decisions like the business and yeah, it's been an exciting couple of years.

[A]

That's amazing. Look, and I could probably talk to you for three hours and no one wants to hear about me and you chatting about our old days, I'm sure, anymore.

[B]

Certainly not about diy.

[A]

No, DIY is not a good thing. And we're going to see you on stage again soon, aren't we? I mean, probably not before this comes up, but you're off to casual dining.

[B]

Casual dining show with Mr. Martin. Yeah.

[A]

Is that right?

[B]

Sit with. Sit with Mr. Martin. Talk about all things I'd love. I love. Whiskey is my weak spot.

[A]

Oh, is that your weak spot? Yeah, you look like a whiskey guy. Yeah, I pulled that.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well done. You still got that. Still got the weighted intuition to go. I know what this chapter sliding down the bar.

[A]

Yeah, that's how it should be. And, and we look forward to seeing it. We came across to see you in Reading and St. Albums of the week. Lovely sights. And I said, lovely people. And I think what you're doing. And there's some exciting stuff coming up. Right. I joke about the November openings, but I'm sure it'll be brilliant.

[B]

I can't wait. Yeah, it's a new look. It's. It's a sort of new feel for bills. It's. It's that new iteration of, you know, we haven't lost any of the old eclectic, crazy look, but it's. I'm really excited about that.

[A]

And the food that we had in Reading, would that be. Is it the same offer? Yeah, yeah, fantastic.

[B]

Same. Same menu. It's across the board and it's. Yeah, super exciting time, so really enjoying it.

[A]

Look, and if anyone wants to stalk you on LinkedIn, well, they're already doing.

[B]

It, but, yeah, they really are.

[A]

What he wants to say is to stop, but. But you can see him at casual dining. Just heckle him from the crowd. And if not, I'm trying to convince him to do service in February here, sitting alongside Mr. Brown and the Brew Dog. Guys. No, you're on. You're on the podcast. You can't see there, so it'd be great to have you here for that. And we're. We'll all meet you then. But, Tom James, thank you very much, mate. I appreciate you coming at the end of the day and we look forward to seeing you all soon.

[B]

All right, thanks, Chris.

[A]

Thanks. Bye.

[B]

Bye. Cheers. Bye.