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- [00:08]
A
Welcome to the Tech Pill, a podcast that looks at how technology is reshaping our lives every day and exploring the different ways that governments and companies use tech to increase their power. My name is Gus Hossain and I'm the Executive Director at Privacy International.
- [00:21]
B
I'm CAITLIN and I'm PI's campaigns coordinator. Hello. Welcome to this second edition of our series on young people's digital health and human rights. As a reminder, this is a three edition series looking at these issues as they're experienced by young people in Kenya, which was the last edition, Columbia, which is today's edition. And our next edition will explore Vietnam and Ghana. In this digital health and rights project, researchers engaged with community advisory teams, or cats, including young people living with and affected by HIV and other marginalized communities.
- [00:53]
A
We're so grateful that we were able to be a part of this project and to be able to speak with these guests that we have for these editions, because we get to learn from. From these people's experiences. You know, rather than us just arguing about what we think is important, we get to hear what matters to the people they engaged with, to the people in communities and listening to their concerns, and to see whether our own work resonates with them. So today, we're so fortunate to engage with two guests who work at one of my favorite organizations called Fondation Charisma, based in Colombia. We've been working with Charisma, gosh, for over 10 years now, exploring a huge variety of issues, whether secret mass surveillance programs run by the Colombian government, enabled by the US Government, or we spoke to Charisma on this podcast around Covid. We're working with Charisma now on militarization of tech. So this huge variety of work that we're doing with them, but now we get to speak to them about something I'd never spoken to Charisma about, which is how they engaged with young people around dating apps.
- [02:01]
B
Yes. And so our wonderful guests today are Laura Grizzelos Simler, who is a content strategist at Charisma, and Natalia Andrade, who's an advocacy coordinator. You'll hear how they navigated the challenge of bringing people on a journey to consider their digital security, the data ecosystem, surveillance capitalism, kind of through the lens of an exploration of popular dating apps
- [02:24]
A
in Colombia and what I loved about what they have done and what Charisma did on this project. They engaged deeply with young people, and these people explained how and why they share their information, what their actual concerns are as they engage more deeply with data issues. When and how they first began to feel concerns and how that discomfort sets in and exhibits itself. So, for instance, you'll hear Laura and Natalia easily weave in these concepts of exploitation and autonomy, not in academic terms or in dry legal terms that we use in some of our filings, but they use it as terms with meaning to people as they were explained to what they're concerned about.
- [03:13]
B
Yeah. And we also get to hear a bit more about the context, specifically in Colombia, where there is an active policy discussion, but also how to get both policymakers and the general public grounded on what all of this kind of abstract stuff actually means for people.
- [03:27]
A
Yeah, because otherwise policy debates are dominated by government officials, lobbyists, and policy nerds like us, articulating these abstract ideas about data, subjects, personal data. And so it's really nice to hear a much more human approach to these what are otherwise dry legal concepts. But having said that, you'll also hear us as hosts, being awkward and I'll admit, a tiny bit cringy, as we have to learn about dating apps as we explore the two main apps that were used in the study in Columbia being the most commonly used apps in the LGBTQ community in Colombia, Columbia. And they were Badu, which is owned by Bumble Incorporated and Grindr.
- [04:13]
B
Yes. You'll hear both Gus and I flex on the fact that neither of us have been on dating apps from my perspective for a long time, and I think probably from Gus's perspective, never.
- [04:21]
A
I don't even know what they look like.
- [04:23]
B
You know, a weird flex, but, like, nonetheless a flex. But yeah, enjoy. Enjoy listening.
- [04:42]
C
My name is Laura. I've been working in Charisma for like two years now as a content strategist. So pretty much learning a lot about social media, but also content that is written internally and all of these communication strategies. Sort of learning too, about all of these topics that I find very fascinating. So I'm kind of a newbie, but also pretty curious about all the things that I have learned throughout these few years.
- [05:08]
D
Hi, my name is Natalia Andrade. I work at Charisma as advocacy coordinator. I've been working there, like, almost for years. I'm a philologist and also I studied literature, but then I came into the digital rights movement and I have been working there since. There's awesome.
- [05:34]
A
Cool. First, I gotta say, Charisma is like one of my favorite organizations on the planet, so it's really nice to meet you. Last time I was in Bogota was like in 2018, so it was, you know, before your time. But I've always loved Working with Charisma, and I'm so glad we get to have this conversation. Second, on the content strategy stuff, you're talking to two nerds here. Like, we want to be nerds on content strategy. Like, Caitlin and I spend a lot of time wondering how we can be doing content better, how we can be engaging better. So it's just. Yeah, it's great to have a fellow traveler in that very, very hard domain.
- [06:12]
B
Yeah. So you're both here today because you've both been working on this really cool and interesting toolkit for people to use to understand and to work through the issues around data use in dating apps. So what is it about dating apps that is kind of particularly interesting?
- [06:30]
D
So. Right.
- [06:31]
C
First, it is important to say that
- [06:33]
D
it is part of some project that we are working together, that it is the HRP Digital Health and Human Rights Project. The idea in this project is to work alongside with young activists from Colombia, Ghana, Kenya and Vietnam to research and advocate for the intersection between digital rights, digital health, and human rights. This toolkit is part of something that we work inside of the project that is a national advocacy plan. The idea was to give to a group confirmed by Joan activists in those topics many tools that they could use to their activism and their advocacy activities that they want to do. It was part of cybersecurity area. We want to strengthen their abilities on the topics. And that's how we came to idea to do a toolkit related to dating apps.
- [07:37]
C
Yeah. And while doing some research about the topic, I remember that I looked into Reddit and social media to see how people perceived dating apps. And they have always been popular for the last few years. It is a space where people really interact differently in the digital environment. And it is an issue that affects, well, implies a lot of young people too. We thought that it'd be interesting and different people think that digital security are just focused on like the main apps. But we think that right now our lives are on digital environments almost everywhere. So I think dating apps was a really innovative way of looking up that approach.
- [08:25]
D
Right. We have this group of people and we had to give them tools to improve their knowledge about cybersecurity or digital security. But then we realized a bunch of organizations have made some toolkits like talking to cybersecurity or digital tips or something like that. Right. But then we wanted to do something new for them. And that's how by chatting, by some conversation with them, we realized that we don't have local information about dating apps. And that's something that they're using all the time. So if we want to protect them and to strengthen their abilities, then we must do something related to dating apps. And that's how we came to Dyad Idea and that's how we identified that Grindr, Arbalu are the most popular dating apps in LGBTQ communities. And that's how we came to that idea.
- [09:30]
B
And did you focus on LGBT communities because of the increased vulnerability of those communities or because the young activists were largely, you know, LGBT themselves? Or like, why. Why was that particular community particularly interesting?
- [09:45]
D
Because, like, a significant part of our cat in Colombia is people that are part of those communities.
- [09:53]
B
Cool. And the cat is the group of young people, right?
- [09:55]
D
Yeah, it is community advisory team. The project, the HRP had cats from Ghana, Kenya and Vietnam. And in each country there is a cat. And right here, most of the people that are part of the cat are part of LGBTQ communities.
- [10:12]
B
Cool. And so you started working on Grindr and bdoo. I've heard of Grindr. I haven't heard of Badoo. So that was quite interesting. I may just because I've been out of the dating pool for a long time, but nonetheless, it was a new name to me. And when you started kind of looking at them to decide what was particularly relevant for the toolkit, like what things jumped out to you as particularly concerning about those apps, I think that we
- [10:37]
D
found like too, for me, right, because it was something that, like really personal in some part of the work. First of all, that tech industry are exploring intimacy for data. And I think that it is like something really cruel because we're talking about like the most private and intimate part of the humans being. And right now it is being exploited by like huge industry, right. And we're working about desire, love, need for recognition. And right now it is being commercialized. And I think that it will be like really important for those community to understand that right. At least to flag to them that it has happened. Also because we are speaking about communities that have been historically discriminated. And we have a bunch of things in Colombia that we have to improve for those people to be rights guarantees, the lack of transparency and accountability for those companies. It's a problem here. Right now in Colombia, we are discussing a bill related to personal data. I think that try to mix in those things, like how the communities are feeling, what is happening with their data, but also to make some analysis about the politics and the privacy is handled by the companies. And the same times related that to the discussion that we are having here within laws and regulation Is, like, really important. And we try to mix up all that things and try to produce a tool that could help in all those areas.
- [12:42]
C
Yeah, I think something that we were addressing or finding was the tension between digital security and how we can give tips when there are a lot of gray areas. So we worked with a digital security specialist here in Charisma. She helped us gather information. She analyzed a lot of these privacy and politics that were in the apps, and she created these tips and recommendations for digital security. But then we read them, and we sort of read Room, and we thought that. There's this particular example that I really liked, which was we had the suggestion of people not linking their personal profile or personal social media to their dating apps. And we thought that was a great tip because it would help you if, like, you had a bad encounter, bad detail encounter, and people do not find you on social media. And, yeah, I mean, like, on paper, it sounds good, but there's also this other part of the situation where you might need some security or some. You need to know that the person that you're seeing is real, and that digital encounter can then become a personal or a physical encounter. So having your social media linked can give you this sort of tranquility or this sensation that you're talking to a real person. So that was the tension. And we found a lot of tensions like that. And I think you could say the second finding was an approach to digital security that does not come from just the tips. And we give you the tips, and then you do whatever you want with it, but to understand the context and then sort of claim the autonomy that you have while using those apps, we thought that the best thing that we could do was to give them the information that they need to also address these political claims that are also very important. Because when we finished creating the toolkit and we did this exercise where we gather everyone and we talked about that sometimes you give more information when you're in a dating app that you would not normally give. So you give your name, but you also give your height, your weight, your political interest, your taste in music, your astrology sign. And, like, there's a lot of information that you give because you're willing to find a connection with someone, and you're sort of thinking that the more you give to other people, the more transparent you are. And also the algorithm will profile for you people that are very similar to you, so you don't feel any problem by giving information. We think that, as Natalia said, that is something that companies do know, and they do Take a great bite on that and we can talk about the political implications of that.
- [15:34]
D
But yeah, also like, I think that the most powerful conclusion that we found was that autonomy is the most powerful tool that people had, right? Then you have a bunch of recommendations and then you can choose which fits the most accurate to your lifestyle. How do you use those apps and how do you want to be persist and what it is important to you, right? Because in some spaces that we have socializing this tool, some people, they don't have problem if tech companies are monetizing their own data, right? And that's something that it happens. Some people don't find it problematic, but some people do. And then just by knowing what is the risk and just by knowing what is happening with your data and you have the power to decide. And that's what we wanted to reflect on the Caputeria, that is the name in Spanish.
- [16:38]
B
I think it's a really interesting point because when it comes to app permissions, one of the things that we tell people to do generally is if you're downloading an app to have a look at the app permissions, what it's asking for and have a thinking, does it need all of those app permissions? And that's helpful to a point. But if you're downloading a map app, maybe it does need your fairly precise location. And so you look at it and you go, well, that brings value to my experience of the app. That's part of why I want it, because it has my precise location. The issue then is, as you say, it's choice. A lot of what we talk about when it comes to privacy is choice. And the company is using my precise location to show me, yes, where I am on a map, but maybe also then to pass on to X, Y, Z, other people. But a lot of the time one comes parcelled with the other and it's hard to understand. I think, as you rightly say, for a lot of people, what is the choice that is available to them and how is that data commercialized? As you say, some people, you're right, it doesn't bother that much at all. What Google, for example, as probably the most famous map app, does or doesn't do with their location? Some people, it genuinely doesn't bother.
- [17:49]
A
But the reason I find the way that you approached this work so fascinating is because it was under the remit of a health project. And the reason that privacy plays itself out very differently in the health context is that in health care, whether you're the healthcare provider or the patient, or the individual. You want to make sure that the relationship is trusting so that as much possible data can flow. You don't want a patient not telling a health care provider anything that's wrong with them. You want them to feel confident that they can speak freely and essentially have that autonomy and agencies as part of that trusting process. And to some degree, I think a dating app is similar where as you develop these relationships with individuals and this app comes in the middle of it all, the sharing of information and intimate information is part of that negotiation process that you have of developing that trusting relationship. But I love the way Natalia, you put it like you have this company in the middle, exploiting that intimacy, that establishment of intimacy. And then you have the next layer of that, which is you don't really have a choice. We all know the name of Grindr because it is the dominant or one of the dominant apps. And if you want to be on that dating scene, it's not like you can pick and choose. There aren't those alternatives. And so this is why it's such a fascinating negotiation that people have to undertake, even though that they hold so little power in it. Did you find that people, when they were articulating concern, and we can't forget that often people don't articulate concern. When they were articulating concern, what kind of feelings came out? Was it like resignation? Oh, you know, I have to do this because it's what I want. I want these relationships or I want to use this app. Or like, what did you see or feel from people?
- [19:53]
D
I think that, like, the first feeling is to worry, right? Because they realize that they do not understand quite good. Like the internal policy of the dating apps. We made up such an interesting exercise is that we size how many pages they had to read in terms to understand what the intimacy and private policy had rendered our value. And we found that if you put like in a document one pages after another, then how many methods do you have to read? And it was something like 60, right? Wow. And then what we had is like this tape that says don't pass or danger.
- [20:43]
C
Trespassing.
- [20:44]
D
Trespassing, right. And then we start making something that here we call like mandala, like a kind of activation inside of worship or something like that. And then we start asking things related to dating apps to all the people that were on their room. They didn't know that what we were doing was like measuring or trying to scale those methods in something that they could see. But then we had like a mess, right? A mess of tape around and they was like, I didn't know that I had to do all those readings to understand what is behind my dating app. And I think that is, like, the first thing that they feel is, like, to worry. And then something that is like, wow, now I realize that there's much more behind those apps. And then I understand that it is also a political discussion and not just like a commercial discussion or a technical discussion, but here it is politics. Right?
- [21:49]
C
Yeah. I remember with that exercise, we looked it up and it said, it can take you up to 60 minutes to read all the terms and conditions of those apps. And we are not doing that. No. In Charisma, we have done this conversation around data in other topics, such as facial recognition, so you can enter your house. Like, we've done those discussions and we've seen that there's this group of people that are not really interested in that because they feel like that is a fair exchange for the experience. So, yeah, I mean, if I have to give all my information, but the app is going to model their algorithm so I can find the perfect match, then I'll do it. I mean, I don't care. And there's these other people that are like, their feelings and transparency towards certain things are different. We had people that were not bothered by sharing their weight, their height, some personal information that normally we would not share. They don't feel like that's a problem because we tend to think that the exchange change is fair. And I think that's something that, as Charisma, as people that are investigating the connections between companies, between apps, third parties, how they sell that data, how they, like, match your interest, but also the ads that you're receiving on your cell phone, too, people do not tend to relate to that. And there's this myth that says that my phone hears me when I'm talking, but we were like, not really. They are knowing a lot of information because you're using a dating app or you're using your social media, and they tend to connect those and then give you the perfect ad and you feel like they're hearing you. So we think that is a process because culturally, the apps or the companies have done a great job by making us believe that the exchange is fair. But then we are here as social organizations that defend human rights to say to them, hey, maybe it's not like that. Maybe there are a lot of political implications, as Natalia said. And maybe actually companies are really profiting selling your data, and we don't know what you can do with it. I mean, if you'd like it if you agree or not. But you should know that you should be informed, you should make informed decisions when you're using those apps. And I think that's where power to the people, I mean people can choose. And I think that's a great exercise because you are not putting them in boxes thinking that they are just people that are not critical. I think people are very critical. And this toolkit has a lot of those discussions that have already been done in Kadisma.
- [24:35]
A
Very nice. Can I step back for a second? And as Caitlin already admitted, and I'll admit as well, I haven't used a dating app. So when you use these apps, are there ads in the app or are we talking only about the fact that this data is sold on to third parties for then subsequent development of advertising?
- [25:02]
D
Both. Right.
- [25:03]
A
Okay.
- [25:03]
D
I mean the interface give you like commercials or some advertisement, and at the same time they are selling by trackers those data to another companies to make detailed profiling.
- [25:19]
B
We've talked a bit about the user experience, but as you say, a lot of it comes down to politics. What is the kind of political overarching situation in Colombia when it comes to, as you say, the lack of accountability for some of these apps and their choices?
- [25:34]
D
I can say that in two ways. The first one is we put some example that people that have been sued or to put some legal warners or something like that. I mean, what we wanted to do is to show them that you can organize people to claim for transparency and accountability to tech company. Right. That is one option. And the second one that is like hard to link between is related to a local regulation or local policy. I mean, we need that these types of information and these types of reflections, worries or things that we think that it is not quite good arrives to a congress or arrives to the executive so people can link how the problems get materialized in people's everyday lives.
- [26:34]
C
Yeah, I think you summed it up a bit when we talk about data people and include myself because I've been in this discussion for about two years. But people think data is like this cloud that does not have like a physical touch. You don't see it, you don't perceive it, and therefore you really don't understand the implications of sharing your data. And I think the political, I wouldn't say risk, but task is to sort of transform that thought and to make people understand that data is not a big cloud, but it is something concrete that can really affect your daily life and that companies are making a lot of money more than you can imagine, and that claims for transparency are not only for you to feel safe, but as something that is more for your community. And also, I don't know, I mean, like to bring this discussion to people in their daily lives. I think that's one of the tasks. And I think Natalia has summed it up very well because she has worked with a lot of projects that have been in our Congress that are trying to modify this approach and we try to give those discussions. So they know that it is not that easy and that there's a lot of factors that should be taken into account.
- [28:00]
D
Also, I think that another political decision is to decide to not be part of it, right? To say now that I'm aware of all of these things, I decide that and I don't want to use that kind of apps. Right. And I think that is something that we have to like ENT5 too. And it is a political decision too.
- [28:19]
B
I mean, I think the microphone that is the ad listening to me example is always such a good one and such an interesting one because I think when people have that thought, right, like, was my phone listening to me? And the conversations that I have because it showed me this creepy ad is when you can see it becoming at least somewhat more visible and like physical and visceral. And it's a conversation I've had so many times where I'm like, well, it isn't at the moment brackets that may not always stay the same. But the bit that's harder to explain is the thing that means that it's creepier than you think it is, is the volume of data you've shared in many different places, even if it was a small innocuous piece of data at the time, has now been sold onto these third party companies or in and of themselves, companies like Google who collect it directly, who've aggregated it in such a way that you have ended up with this advert and whether that's because you were talking to someone yesterday about toothbrushes, you were in the same room as that person, that person googled it and you've ended up with the advert because you probably use a similar brand of toothbrush or to much more complicated causal chains, that is what's happening in a lot of cases. And I find that to be creepier than it's always listening to you. And when you add dating app information into that mix, which is your rate, can be super personal, height, weight, but can also be HIV status, can also be your own personal menu of sexual interests, can also be pictures can also be all sorts of other things. You can see how that information gets intensely creepy, especially when it's added to your social media data, it's added to your browsing data, is added to your location data is added to your map history, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Up with. Yeah, this is a creepily prescient kind of. This is the perfect ad. That's weird. I mean, excuse me for my lack of knowledge, but what is the data protection kind of legal situation in Colombia? You guys have a data protection law, I'm pretty sure. But is it a good one? Is it a dubious one? The law is good, but the enforcement is terrible, which I think is true of most places that have a data protection law. What's the kind of vibe?
- [30:41]
D
We have a data protection law and I think it's a kind of a privilege in this part of the world. I mean, for example, like I don't know, two months ago Paraguay was celebrating that they have the first one in their entire life. Right. So it is not like something that is common in Latin America. Right. Right now we are having some discussions because I think that the law is not prepared for this moment of the history in which there are people exploding data as it is happening right now. Right. So I think that it is not like our strength topic also for Laudan, for me. But right now it must be updated and we are in the discussion of how it should be updated. The bill that it is right now on the Congress is made by and Spanish enterprise. It is not something like made here. Right. Based on the necessities that Colombian has. And it is a political discussion. And right now we have a bill that has joined two bills. One that came up from this Spanish company that I said and the other one from the Sikh that is the institution in charge of protect and regulate commerce and industry. But they have some responsibilities in terms of consumers and that's why they are in charge of data protection. Right. And those bill has joined and that's what we have right now. We have tried to advocate on the discussion, but Colombian politics moves like so fast and right now I'm not sure because the Congress is going to finish in 40 days or something like that. And it is probably that that bill could not be approved until this Congress change.
- [32:45]
B
So data protection is the least sexy area of law. There's probably less sexier areas of law, but I probably haven't heard of them because they're that boring. But I think what's so useful when you do things like this toolkit and when you think about apps like dating apps, which are sort of embedded in a lot of people's lives and as you kind of make people more aware of the ways in which their data moves and the ways it impacts them, is it brings that very, very boring kind of and technical, technocratic area of law into the more immediate things that do affect people's lives. Right. And it does remind people that an aspect of protecting their human rights is unfortunately for everyone, a data protection rights, particularly online, particularly at this particular moment
- [33:34]
D
and also particularly in this part of the world. Because I mean Colombia is not like a huge market for those companies, tech companies, and that's why when it happens here, they don't care that much. And that's why in what is happening right now in the world, we are trying to advocate more in the locally and not that much like in the global forums or interventions, international bright courts. Because I mean in Europe like these tech companies care much more those markets than this one here. And that represents some challenge for organizations like Charisma to make them pay in some way. Right? Because it is not easy. They don't care about us. So that's why we need to be more, much more detailed in what our laws give them. The rules of the play, the play rules. And it is important. It is not the same for Latin American market that for example, what is happening in United States or what happens in Europe, it is different.
- [34:48]
A
It's interesting and Caitlin's right, that data protection law is boring. But when you do have a usable data protection law, that's when the conversation around safeguards begins. Like we did some research in advance of this podcast to if I'm like in 2018, Grindr was forced to confirm that it had shared users HIV status along with GPS location, email address and phone ID with two third party companies. In 2021, Grindr was fined by the Norwegian Data Protection Authority. And remember, Norway is a small country, but it's a wealthy country and a country with a regulator that takes its job relatively seriously. And they fined Grindr 6.5 million euros for sharing personal data with advertising companies without valid consent. In the uk, where data protection law is a bit of a. Let me just say it's a bit of a. There was a case taken by more than 11,000 people who sued Grindr for sharing sensitive data including HIV status, their use of drugs and ethnic origin without consent. And then Badoo also faced a suit in the US in Illinois, where there's a very specific and very powerful law in Illinois around biometrics. And Badoo, owned by bumble, was fined $40 million for illegally collecting biometric facial data without consent.
- [36:18]
B
But it's worth noting when it comes to data protection fines. PI filed a case against an ad broker called Cryteo in France. It was a data protection case. It was in 2018. It was the end of 2018, we filed this case and they were fined 40 million euros by the French data protection regulator. Sounds great. Amazing. We won. Lovely. Except they then have variously appealed the fine, et cetera, et cetera, and it's only this year that they've got told, yes, the 40 million euros fine has been upheld. You are going to have to pay it. And to my knowledge, they haven't paid it yet. And that is what, eight years on from the initial filing in 2018. And so even where data protection authorities arguably do their jobs, even where the data protection law is fairly strong, theoretically, how much impact it has on a company can vary pretty wildly. How long it takes to have an impact on the company can vary pretty wildly. And I think one of the advantages, outside of being almost like a local market for a lot of these apps, they care about the US because they often start in the us, they care about Europe because they often start in Europe and because Europe's however many countries, but also they've had almost first mover advantage Europe when it comes to data protection regulation. And I think as more and more countries get data protection laws that are different and depend on the local constituency and it becomes more and more complicated to comply across every single jurisdiction for these massive big tech kind of things, then I don't really know what's going to happen. It'll be interesting and you would hope. What my hope would be is they'd pick the most protective standard and they would just have to follow that globally because it would be surely the easiest thing to do. But I don't think that's going to happen. But it would be nice if it did. But I don't think that's going to happen.
- [38:15]
D
Maybe I'm kind of skeptical to think that like a common law could be used around the world because each country and how they have relationships between tech companies, for example, it is quite different, for example, in this part of the world. I mean, we are not also seen as consumers maybe, but also as part of the call centers that made the moderations on content or something like that. Right. We are like in a different part of the supply chain in Latin America. They all the time are seeing what is happening in Europe and try to copy paste Here. And that's a problem that we have in this region. Because most of the times, while that regulation could give us some light or some ways to see the problem, it doesn't have the same impact right here, because it is not the same, because our relations are not the same. So what I think we have to keep discussing about accountability, but at the same time, we need that citizens and people from different communities understand this discussion, because that's how I think we can generate some kind of political pressure to our local authorities to make laws and regulations that fits our necessities.
- [39:39]
C
We were talking. I remembered that last year, our team did a research on this company called WordCoin that came to Colombia, and they offered people like the exchange rate, but it wasn't that much in Bitcoin, 100
- [39:55]
D
points or something like that. It was nothing.
- [39:57]
C
It was nothing for their biometrical. I think it was the iris, the uri, and people did the exchange without problem. Because, I mean, this is a country with a lot of inequities, and people are not very well informed. Which goes back to what Natalia said, that we need people to be informed of the implications of your sharing your biometric information. And they get sanctioned by the sick, which was this institution that we talked before. There's like this protection, which not that much, but I think the focus that that research did was to sort of think, what's the information that people have available to understand? Giving your personal data, It's a complicated issue. And here in Colombia, I think there's very few institutions or organizations that can talk about that, because it is actually, as Natalia set, a quite new approach on that situation for our country, too. So I think this kind of exercises, like talking about something as personal and as common as using dating apps, are like a great way to introduce people to data protection and to data awareness, because it blurs outline, and it does not become something that tech companies and the government are discussing and we are just watching them. It becomes something that it is in your cell phone. It affects your real life. And I think that's like the strategy that Carrizo has been taking so far. And it's been great because it has given us the chance to bring to the public interesting conversations, interesting point of views. And definitely people have been at least asking themselves about data, which I think that's a great way to start.
- [41:53]
B
Absolutely. And it's a perfect kind of loop background to the toolkit, which we'll put a link in the description. But is there anything you want to tell people right now who Are listening about the toolkit before they go and click the link, which they should do right now.
- [42:07]
D
Just wait. Because we are doing some adjustments. But hopefully in the middle of May, we have updated our website. That is info.charisma.org co and also in our social media you can find us charisma with K. It is important and what it is this toolkit that we have been talking about for an hour, it is something that we call that. It is like polysemic in Spanish. It is something really, really translate. I tried, but I don't think that I could find some proper translation because it's kind of a slang, right? But the two meanings that has that word is the first one is something that we say when we found something that like is really interesting that I really like. Like something really cool. But at the same time we use those terms to refer something that peace as. So we wanted to create something that piss off the people because they must organize to ask for accountability and transparency to the companies. But at the same time we want the people could enjoy how they get involved and their relations between those apps, right? Because we are working about love, desire, sex, right? So like there are like the two meanings and that's why we called it and it is a logbook, right? Because we try to take this kind of trend that it is right now about the analogic word that come back again. And we are trying to reduce our screen time and we went something that people could write with a pencil or with, I don't know, whatever they wanted. So it is first of all, we have some reflections, right, that what it is these. And we give them some information that we found in the terms and policies of these apps and we propose some exercise so people can reflect about that. What happened after you discovered that, for example, dating apps can request 53 types of personal data? What happens inside of you, inside of your heart, inside of your mind and how do you feel? So we wanted to create a space for reflect also and also contain some care tips because we tried to break that idea of physical security and digital security and took much more. In terms of care, how can you carry yourself and how can you carry your community and your friends and your future matches? And that's why we are talking about digital care for dating apps.
- [45:21]
C
Yeah. Something that I would like to add is that it is a great design. Our graphic designer, she's very talented and she created this full of color and great graphics. And I think that's also very important because we would like people to keep it and it's like when you carry a journal with you and you write prompts or things that you find interesting. We thought that idea was great because then people can understand that on a personal level, which I think is the first approach, and then sort of understand that and then organize themselves. And also something that you can sort of download, print, and share, and it can also help the people from the cats, so they take that resource and they activate that resource in their context, too. So it is something that is useful for activists to create some sort of either workshop or transform that into something else. So I think that that was also the idea to create something that you can interact with. And the idea is that you feel like those points that are made on the login, you feel like they're your own, too.
- [46:33]
B
I don't know.
- [46:34]
C
I mean, that was some sort of the idea to have a lot of creative input and output for that.
- [46:40]
B
A great icebreaker for a first date.
- [46:42]
D
Yeah. Unfortunately, it is just available in Spanish. And we tried to make it, like, as Colombian as we could. Right. Because we want something, like, really local that people could read it and say, okay, I can reflect myself on those words. Right. But we use Creative Commons license, so everyone can upload it then and printed them and make whatever you want with it. Right. And that's why we created thinking that it is not for us, it is for the communities that are inside of the cat and the communities that they represent. So the idea is that we can have them printed and, like, split it around Colombia as much as we can.
- [47:27]
B
Awesome.
- [47:27]
A
I just think it's absolutely beautiful. I think it's wonderful that you started with this incredibly painful and annoying exercise of having to print off all those meters of pages and to show people how cold and clinical the app can be. And then you create something so warm and creative and adaptable and open. I think that's wonderful, and I can't wait for more and more people to see it. So thank you for sharing that with us.
- [47:55]
B
Awesome. It was great to hear from them. It was really fun to talk to them. And if you want to find their toolkit and you speak Spanish or you're happy to do what I did, which was to copy each line into DeepL. Other sketchy online translators exist, then you can find it in the link in the description. I think it's really an interesting kind of reminder in some respects that the things that we know, that Gus knows, that maybe you as a listener know about how much data these apps collect, where the data goes and the ways that data can move is not necessarily something people think about or know about or reflect on in the ways that maybe we do. And so it was really interesting to chat to them about how they design this toolkit and the ways in which it works as a log for people to explore their kind of reaction to learning that information.
- [48:56]
A
Like, I absolutely also love some of those one liners, like killer one liners that they came up with in the interview, like this one about how the most private and intimate part of our lives is dating and it is being exploited by a huge industry, or how love, desire and need for recognition is being commercialized. I just, it was such powerful emotional language for something that Caitlin dismissed as incredibly dry and boring, being data protection law. So I'm totally stealing that for the future.
- [49:28]
B
I think I need to rescue my reputation on this. I think law is boring. I think the details of data protection law are understandable. Dry. And people look at them and go. Because I look at them and I go. And I kind of go whining to our lawyers, like, what does this mean? Please help me. Because law, for good or for ill, is very specific and dry and uses its own language in a way that I find intensely boring. But the principles have come to define so much of our lives, right? Like data protection law is one thing, data protection and privacy. And these principles I don't think are boring. I think they're central to the way that we have to live our lives. But the law is boring. If anyone who's read a law and anyone who's read a data protection law, I think can attest to this fact that it is very, very dull. It's a dull experience to do is to sit down and read a law. It's slightly better to go and read data protection authority guidance around a law, but that in and of itself is a boring sentence.
- [50:27]
C
So.
- [50:28]
A
And that's why what Charisma has done is such an incredible public service, which is that they've gone and spoken to people where they're at, using the tools that they want to use and looking through that lens and thinking, okay, how can we engage with people to understand their contexts and understand the risks and understand the issues. And that led to the final one liner I'm totally stealing from them, which is that autonomy is the most powerful tool that people have. And this came out of their discussions with the community. It's not the language they went into the discussions with. It's like us showing up with a PowerPoint presentation with the opening slide, being autonomy is important. No, this is something that came out. And so there's so many fresh ideas and fresh approaches from this work. We're so grateful to Charisma for having done it. So if you want to follow Charisma's work, we will include links to all their work in the description wherever you're listening or on our website@ppcy.org Techpill thanks for listening and thanks to our guests for joining us. And remember, you can sign up to be the first to learn more about our work at pbcy.org podsignup don't forget to rate and subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you use. Music is courtesy of Sepia. This podcast was produced by Max Burnell for Privacy International.
- [52:13]
B
It.