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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome to the Tech Pill, a podcast that looks at how technology is reshaping our lives every day and exploring the different ways that governments and companies use tech to increase their power. My name is Gus Hossain and I'm the Executive Director at Privacy International.
- [00:22]
B
And I'm Caitlin. And I'm PI's campaigns coordinator. Hi.
- [00:26]
A
So welcome to the third edition of our series on young people's digital health and human rights. This is the last episode of this mini series looking at issues as they are experienced by young people in Kenya, Colombia, and Vietnam and Ghana, which is today's edition.
- [00:41]
B
Today we're talking to Alberta Nadute, a research officer working on the Digital Health and Rights project about how young people in Ghana interact with digital health. And Min An, a young person from the Vietnam Community Advisory Team, about her participation in the research in Vietnam and what she sees as the biggest digital health concerns as a medical student interested in public health policy. First up, we're going to be talking to Alberta.
- [01:03]
A
As she will mention, working on some of these issues in Ghana at the moment is not at all straightforward. There's an anti LGBTQ bill, formerly called the Human Sexual Rights and Family Values Bill, that has been going through Parliament for a number of years and is again back on the table. It is an attempt to criminalize a range of LGBTQ activity, including public shows of romantic relations or teaching children about LGBTQ issues and identities, and the forced disbanding of all LGBT associations in Ghana, along with six to 10 years of imprisonment for anyone taking part in such an association. Given the DHRP's focus on sex workers, people living with HIV, and the LGBTQ community, this proposed law has really complicated some things. But as you'll hear from Alberta's interview, her main takeaway from a lot of this work is not doom, but joy and connection.
- [02:12]
C
My name is Alberta Nandute. I lead the research work stream on the digital health and rights projects in Ghana.
- [02:20]
B
Awesome. So what research did you participate in and what did that look like? How did you participate?
- [02:26]
C
Okay, so the current research is on the future of human rights in the digital age. We are looking at experiences of young adults in key populations, how they actually obtain or assess health information using their mobile phones. So how they assess health information as well as share health information on various platforms, physically using their digital devices or mobile phones.
- [02:53]
B
And how do young people access digital health using their digital their mobile phones and digital devices?
- [02:59]
C
Yeah. So for many young people, we go online to assess health information for various reasons. Various groups has a various reasons why they will go online for key populations. It is easier for us because we tend to think of privacy most especially when we are living with conditions that can easily be stigmatized. So for instance, if a queer person is aiming to get health access within the physical facilities, the climate is not so conducive. Right. So it will be easier. The person will easily turn to online platforms or online services instead of going physically to obtain services. For most young female adults, I think issues of sexual and reproductive health topics are hardly spoken about. Some topics are basically termed as taboo topics.
- [03:53]
B
Some.
- [03:53]
C
So for some young people, it's even difficult to even ask, oh, what's menstruation? Just at home or something is a topic that is very sensitive to talk about. So topics about, you know, sex and other things are hardly spoken of in the house. Yes. So most young people rather turn online to obtain more information just to escape the judgments that will come from, you know, the community or the family or any other person. So it's easier for us to access health services or get information online because sometimes the physical avenues available to us are quite difficult to, you know, navigate.
- [04:33]
A
So that's absolutely fascinating. And I'm curious if you're a young person trying to do this kind of research online in Ghana, like, are there trustworthy local resources? Or are they just like every other Internet user on the planet, doing a Google search and finding out what the top hits are and just getting their information from that? Like, what is that experience like to
- [04:57]
C
answer that, you know, with evidence? I think it's one of the major findings where most of the young people did mention that it's just difficult to figure out which sites or which information is accurate because the moment probably I want to learn about hiv, I just type, you know, hiv. A lot of information comes and sometimes it's very difficult to even decipher which source to trust who is giving the right information and who do you even authenticate that information from? Within our country here, when we are talking about healthcare delivery system, social media or online platforms are not captured and direct. So if the person gets the information there, how then does the ministry get to know that the person is getting the right information? Because we don't have the ministry putting out the right kind of information or having sites that young people can authenticate information from. So I think that's one of the major concerns about, you know, is this the right information? Am I getting it from the right source? Because we have a lot of people who share information online for their personal gains, Especially with hiv. We have men of God who claim they are selling, you know, cure. And so long as people are going after cure when they are in any health situation, they will tend to follow these individuals and purchase medications or whatever they are selling from these people without really understanding that this is something we need to manage. And probably ARVs are the best ways to go. So most people can be swayed because other people are sharing information for their own gains as well. So it's tough navigating, you know, the digital spaces for information they accurate information that you need. Definitely. Sometimes this case, you know, you just type in two simple symptoms and you have very huge technologies coming up and you don't know where or who to ask. So that is the difficulty going online.
- [06:55]
A
Absolutely. That's fascinating and of course very worrying. I'm curious, would the government's Ministry of Health have information available that would be helpful to young people trying to learn more about these things or would the government not provide such a information like is that one trustworthy source or are there other organizations in Ghana that would be a useful resource?
- [07:23]
C
Yeah. So I think the answer is still in the argument that we make on the project that, you know, digitalization is actually moving faster than how every country is adopting it. Because like I said, we still see digital health to be within the health care system. So it just operates within the health facilities. How are we managing patient data? How are we, you know, making diagnosis? But the end user outside the facility is not considered. So when you go to the official ministry's website, unfortunately you may not get this information as a young, but probably you type, you know, what is hiv. You might not get that information from the official health website. Right. You are getting it from probably a medical person that has tagged them or is associated with their ministry. But the ministry itself hasn't designated, you know, time or, you know, the energy into ensuring that we are doing this advocacy or we are educating young people online. So it's about individuals, it's about healthcare profession. It's always at the individual level, it's not really at the national level. Yes. Because if you look at even our digital health policy, very little is said about, you know, the end user or outside facilities use of obtaining information. Right. Everything is within the healthcare system, how we are going to make better diagnosis and all of that. Yes. So it's about the health system. It's not transporting online as expected.
- [09:02]
B
Cool. And for you, what was the key finding of the research? Was it the difficulty balancing the physical privacy risks or like the overwhelm risks of the online space? Or were there Other findings that you thought were kind of equally or more important.
- [09:16]
C
So I think all the findings are kind of, you know, key to us, especially within our context, because it is unfortunate to know that as a young person, it's difficult for me to assess health services physically. And yet we are, you know, trying as much as possible to ensure privacy or to ensure that most young people obtain especially sexual reproductive health services. We are trying to move it digitally or we are trying to move it online. However, there are still barriers online, and these are barriers that are not things that we are speaking much about to ensure that we address them. So for instance, most key people experience stigmatization, the number one thing that prevents us from entering the facility to get help. Yet when you go online, it is still happening. The stigma may arise based on one's identity, the kind of occupation, because we work with sex workers, and then sex work is not permissible in the country. Right. So basically there's a cascade of the barriers. Cascades in a way. So economic barriers was very key in our country because most young people complained like they didn't have money to even obtain smartphones. Right. And it was very visible within the rural areas as well. So if I'm not able to obtain mobile phone, then it will even be difficult even if I obtain the mobile phone data. Prices are very high in the country. So again, they are not able to purchase data even if they have their mobile phones. At a point in time, a young person has to, you know, choose between feeding yourself or, you know, getting data. So I'm having a concern. I need to get online, but I don't have data. But I just have one stream of money. Do I get the data and get the help I need, or do I get the food and then just suffer whatever will come my way? Yes. So because you are not able to buy the phone to, you are likely to borrow somebody's phone to go online and search. And that is where stigma creeps in. So after searching, my history is on this person's phone. What if the person, you know, assesses my information, gets to know who I am or, you know, the kind of condition I have or the kind of occupation I'm in doing so, stigma then sets in. And due to the stigma as well, keenly, most of them are likely to face technology facilitated abuses. So these abuses are things that are being really normalized. Right. So for a person living with hiv, the mere fact that people get to know that you have this condition because it is stigmatized, you are likely to be subjected to abuses to the extent that some people will just tell you, hey, you've gotten what you want, like, you deserve to even die, right? Very, very harsh words being used on them. And then for the LGBTQI community, unfortunately, this is a climate that is not so conducive because we have a bill in Parliament that is seeking to criminalize their activities. So they are very vulnerable online. And they, you know, receive or experience a lot of abuses. Some women tell them to die, they are not human beings, and the rest. And then for sex workers, it is not perfectly simple. So nobody needs to know what I do. So you just need to do your own thing in your secret and ensure that your privacy is not just leaked. So that's just how the cascade of the issues are. But the, the thing that stands out for me is the digital gender divide. Where within the northern part of the country that is experiencing like, it's more or less like a rural community, it's even challenging for women to use smartphones. And then because of the cultural context in which they find themselves, some women have to seek permission from their husbands to be able to use smartphones because their husband, like, what do you need a smartphone for? You just need a phone to call me and ask me what do I need to eat. So what do you need a smartphone for? And then when a young person is, you know, carrying a certain type of phone, the perception, like people perceive you to be, you know, engaging in illegal activities to be able to obtain such phone. So it's difficult even if you have the money to purchase. You just have to think twice of what society will say. So technology facilitated abuse is quite concerning because if I can't go to the physical facility and then online too, I'm experiencing the same form of abuses. The question becomes, where do I go? And then where does my health like, my health needs? How are they really being addressed in the country?
- [14:07]
B
Yes.
- [14:08]
C
So the normalization of technology facilitated abuse is something that is very concerning. And that's one of the areas that we decided to even advocate for. And that one too has. It hasn't been easy because of the. The environment and context in which we find ourselves.
- [14:23]
A
That's such a bleak picture. And I can't even begin to fathom the day to day experiences of somebody who's seeking support. This might sound like a banal question, but when you had the research meetings and the focus groups and people were able to come together and talk about these challenges and in the context of the changing legislative framework in the country, what was the feeling in the room like, what were their emotions being shared? Were people nervous to even talk amongst themselves? Were they hopeful that things are changing? Because I now have a phone of my own and so there's hope, or I found a good resource. Or is it just the predominant phone feeling of, like, this is a despairing situation that'll only get worse because they're. They're dealing with so much violence?
- [15:21]
C
I think initially when the invites, you know, went to them, like, everybody was curious, what are we going to discuss? And then should I say the focus group discuss? I think the beginning, where they write out their barriers, their challenges, or the barriers that young people experience just to obtain information online or share information individually. Everybody has, you know, paper to write it down, and then we paste it on the wall, and then you get a chance to look at what other people have also said it. So that is where the discussion starts from. So it's like, okay, somebody feels what I'm also feeling. So it becomes now it becomes collective. And the moment it's like nobody is coming to us to ask these questions, and then we don't have any avenue to air this challenges or to talk about these issues. So I think it was a beautiful thing. And then just trying to even ask them how they think, you could see that they are able to kind of predict that even if in an urban area this is a challenge, this is likely to even be more right in the, in the, in the rural area. So just collectively understanding that we are all in this soup together, we are all facing this challenge. And one beautiful thing about it is the resilience that we see in most of them, especially those who are the young health advocates, because as young people, we are the only people who understand ourselves. For our contest is like that. Sometimes in our homes, it's difficult to, you know, just speak freely with your parents. You know, it's not there. So when we meet ourselves, that's when we discuss. So most of them are easily. They are likely to join youth groups or, you know, groups that they identify with, and that is where they share a. Of information and would love to learn. Yes. So the resilience that they have, I think that's something remarkable. And then sharing that they wish to learn more about AI, you know, get training on digital literacy just so they can help themselves and help their communities. That's something remarkable. So I think the feeling during was something like, you know, collectively we are facing these challenges, and then we can just mobilize ourselves and then fight for whatever we want.
- [17:39]
A
So I used to be a researcher And I can say, I never run a research session where I could say something beautiful happened. And you use the word beautiful a number of times and that's this gorgeous. It's wonderful that they could come together, hear each other out, be seen as they talk about what they want. And the challenge of being a researcher is that often you can't articulate what is needed in the world. As a result, that's the space that advocates fill. And so as a result, I'm curious, what would you want for them next as a result of this? What advocacy is needed? What change is needed, apart from that beautiful point you make of the fact that they have community now and they're going to have that regardless going forward. And that's, as you say, beautiful. What needs to change in the environment to make things better now and the foreseeable future?
- [18:34]
C
This question is quite easier because of the approach that we use. That's the participatory action research approach where we involved our participants, the communities we are working in right from the design. So after the findings we went back for validation and then we have the Ghana Community Advisory team, both vibrant young people from diverse backgrounds coming together like they have been the immediate point of contact, just inputting like the implementation right to the field work, everything they were engaged in. So after the validation then we need to consider advocacy because that is also an extension of the project. We do research for advocacy. So after everything was presented, what do you people think? It is the present thing that we young people need and we need to advocate for. And that is where we went for technology facilitated abuse. So that is coming from the community. Yes, from the perspective of a researcher getting to know the economics, costs, I would say, okay, this is a serious vibe because if you are not even online, then how do I protect you? But the question too is if we don't make the Internet or the online services safe, how do we want other people to come and feel okay, Must they come and experience the negativities before we address it? So why don't we rather advocate for technology facilitated abuses so that we make online spaces safe for others to be able to come and, you know, experience and then moreover get the health information and services that they need. So for Ghana, we've been advocating on technology facilitated abuses, making sure that we create awareness about it. We engage the various stakeholders, that's from the government level to law enforcement, all the stakeholders, to ensure that redress mechanisms are put in place. Because one of the findings, after the abuses, what next? Most of them are not able to get justice or to get a redress and support that they need. So imagine somebody who is stigmatized, like person living with hiv, a care person abused, and then you are even afraid to go to the police. It means you just have to leave it. And that will even make you experience more abuses. So we are really advocating for support systems. We are creating awareness about the support systems that are currently available. We know there are some systems, but they need to be strengthened because these systems were put in place without considering the digital ecosystem. Because like some of them will go to the police and the police will what should we do? Somebody has abused you. Right. Even sometimes the abuses lead to physical assaults. We have participants who shared experiences where the abuse online now led to physical assaults. And this person was not even able to go to the law enforcement to report because at the end of the day, where do we go and find the person this didn't happened online. How do we even track the person? So we just want to create awareness on technology facilitated abuse, that abuses are happening online. And then those who are victims needs to be supported. They need to have support. So yeah, as well as the government expanding connections and then ensuring digital literacy becomes a main thing for the young people. Because honestly, we own the Internet, we use it more. So it's about us speaking about the challenges we experiences and then they make it a safer place for us.
- [22:14]
B
Have you found that to be really difficult given the political environment you mentioned with the anti LGBTQ bill that's been going through for a long time? And has that led to some of the participants being more concerned maybe than they were in other countries about like the government surveillance aspect of digital health?
- [22:32]
C
Yes. So considering the risks, that was one of the things we really have to consider because one of the key agencies we intended to engage was the Ministry of Digitalization, because they are in charge of the whole digitalization and communications. And unfortunately for us, the minister in charge is still the minister that is pushing for the bill.
- [22:56]
A
Oh no.
- [22:58]
C
So I remember right from the time that we wanted to engage the ministry and that was in the previous government, we wanted to even to interview somebody from the ministry. We still didn't get the chance. And then unfortunately, even during this advocacy stage, so it's just like we have to be extremely strategic with our messages because will be a strong word to use. However, if you know the barrier or if you know your enemy, you know how best to deal with your enemy. So advocacy in the country has been extremely strategic. So we leverage mostly on, you know, like celebrations, like global celebrations. Like world ICT days for girls, you know, so that within that period we send out a lot of messages. We've tried to engage the ministry, but it wasn't fruitful as we intended because, you know, his focus is on something else entirely. So it hasn't been easy, I must admit. But the most important thing is we get a message across. So instead of going for the like the top down approach, we'd rather start from the ground. Let's look for the stakeholders, the civil society organizations that can share in the same message that we are sharing and then let the discussions begin from the ground. So with some of our publication and I think we've been able to have some media interviews and at least we believe that is a long shot because definitely our videos will pop up somewhere. Some people will reach out to ask more questions. We have organizations that will reach out and be like, okay, so what do we do now? I think afterwards Amnesty invited us for a podcast where they were also concerned. They had been working on technology facilitated gender based abuse. So we have a similar finding. So let's have a discussion on this and how it's about leveraging the networks that are available for us and being strategic.
- [24:59]
B
Awesome.
- [25:00]
A
Thank you for joining us. Thank you for the work and thank you for raising these issues. I love your use of the word beautiful. It fills me with so much optimism, even though it's so dark, but it's engaging with people who want to see change and who just want to be treated as humans. And to see that interaction and the commonalities and to hear it come out from your storytelling, it is beautiful. It really, really is. And so it's hard not to be hopeful. Even though, as you say, the top down approach isn't working right now, but the bottom up approach of just humans supporting each other and wanting to know and wanting to learn and wanting to take care of each other. Oh God, that's just. You've given me a hopeful view of the world, even though we're dealing with something that's so dark and challenging. Albert, thank you so much. So much like you've given us, like, yeah, just on the inside, this warm feeling that, you know, this is all such good work and long may this kind of work continue.
- [26:03]
C
I'm just happy that we gotten the chance, you know, to talk about it. That's just how awesome this approach is. You get to hear from everybody and then you have a better understanding of the concept and then just appreciate, you know, how issues, you know, play out in each of the countries and then we can learn from each other. That's for me, one of the best feelings on the projects.
- [26:27]
A
Yeah, as you would say, that's beautiful.
- [26:34]
B
Following alpha from Alberta, we're now going to be talking to Minan, who was invited to participate in the research by the Vietnam Network of People Living with HIV or the vnp. The research found that Vietnam had more confidence with and access to digital devices and platforms, which changed the environment quite significantly for young people's engagement with digital health. So next up, Milan.
- [26:57]
D
So my name is Ming Anh. I'm currently a member from VCAT team which is the advisory community team in Vietnam. I'm 24 years old now and I'm currently still a student, but I participated in some community group about HIV in Vietnam. So I have a chance to join the VCAT team and the DHRP project. Yeah.
- [27:25]
B
Awesome. And how did you get involved? And I guess why did you get involved? What drew you into it?
- [27:31]
D
I received invitation and I have joined an interview and also a workshop hosted by the vnp. And I think that I passed the interview quite smoothly, I guess. But actually before, I don't have too much experience about this field. Yeah, it's like a new topic in Vietnam. But after three years participating in this project, I think that I have more lessons than I thought. Cool.
- [28:03]
A
You're a student at Hanoi Medical University. What are you studying?
- [28:07]
D
I'm currently studying about preventive medicine. The combination might be general medicine and public health. So we learned a lot about building the policies, making plans and communicated with many community group in Vietnam. So we have a chance to work with many people and many organizations and we learn how to manage all of that.
- [28:33]
A
Wonderful.
- [28:33]
B
That's a cool crossover. I hope you don't mind me asking, but you said the digital health kind of stuff's quite new in Vietnam. Like what is that looking like, what's the change looking like?
- [28:43]
D
I think that in the past few years, people in my country know about digital health like some simple terms like the cyber bullying, like some stigma, online stigma, or maybe about being scamming online. So they normally know about digital health is currently belong to that terms. So they don't know how to protect them when joining the online spaces. So I think that this digital health term and the whole meaning of this project will bring a lot of positive result to our country by making change to the people. Cool.
- [29:26]
B
And so for you, what was the key finding? Like, what was the thing that you thought was most interesting about the outcomes?
- [29:33]
D
For me, the key finding was that stigma interacts strongly with the digital Barriers to deepen inequality, especially in some key populations in Vietnam, like the people living with hiv, the lgbtq, the female sex workers, MSM in Vietnam, they are like four groups that remain some strongly bad results from being stigma online in Vietnam. So they have the most problems about this. So the research highlighted how concerns over the data security and surveillance risk prevent youth from fully utilizing new health technologies. So I think that is the key findings.
- [30:26]
B
How would you say that stigma manifests itself when people are thinking about whether to engage with digital health initiatives? Like what are people worried about?
- [30:35]
D
So the stigma remains a leading obstacle when the youngster fear identity being exposed. So this anxiety is coupled with limited transparency in the data collection and surveillance from the family and community. So it leads them to self assess to essential online health care service. I think this interaction push some vulnerable routes, like I mentioned before, further away from the digital health benefits and it leads to more system inequalities in my country because people in some groups like the plh, AV or the lgbtq, they are very worried that their identity, their personal information can be leaked online and they can receive many harassment or some negative comments about their appearance or their stories they tell. So they are really afraid about it. And that's the reason why our keyword in the research results is the stigma. And stigma is like a main point. It leads to many drawbacks and some negative effects like that.
- [31:58]
A
We're very curious about the experiences you had when you were meeting and engaging with the young people and how they were articulating their feelings about stigma. But we're also curious, what were the circumstances that they were most concerned about and what would give rise to those circumstances? Was it they were concerned about being online and just joining communities and talking about their health, or were they concerned about sharing the medical information with health providers who would not take care of their data and as a result they would face stigma? How did the stigma arise?
- [32:45]
D
I think they both worry about their personal information being leaked to the public and also the healthcare providers. Because some hospitals in Vietnam and also some clinic, their real identification of these people may be being hided and they are very worried about that. Some healthcare service can be monitored by the family or the community and their past experience, like cyberbullying or exhausting using sensitive images can create massive psychological barriers to them. And some hospital and clinics in our country can use their personal information to some other companies, like data companies, and it can be used for many bad purposes. So they are worried for both ways. Yeah.
- [33:45]
B
What do you think the research shows or what in Your opinion is the most important way to improve people's access to digital health services. Particularly considering people's concerns around stigma and their own privacy.
- [33:58]
D
I believe that the key lies in the enhancing the digital literacy for those people and in our country too because I think it is more than just technical skills. It's about empowering youth to protect their own privacy when they access to online services not only about health service but also some other service. They can know how to detect misinformation which is lead to some confusion. And also they can apply their critical thinking to prevent them from being assessed to some harmful content. And they can know some tips like a checklist do and don't when they assess online service. And I think that by mastering these skills so young people can build like a digital trust and effectively protect themselves in the online world. They can use some tools like the two layers protection when they access to some social media platforms or they know how to don't click in some strange link or some webs without any protection from the government or the society. Yeah, I guess that's the key point to improve the access in our country
- [35:30]
B
when it comes to people's understanding of online privacy. Do you think it's a particular problem for young people or do you think it's a society wide problem that as things get more online has become more obvious, particularly for young people who have to be so online?
- [35:48]
D
I think it's a whole community problems and especially in our countries because I think many bad experience like the cyberbullying or extortion, using sensitive images, using people's personal information for scamming, for the, for the marketing or negative websites, it can bring many bad effects to the people and the community. And when it spread to a whole community, it can be very dangerous.
- [36:30]
B
How are people expressing their frustration like in the vcat, in the groups that you were in with the other young people that you were talking to. How do people express the ways that they feel about the barriers they face like spending their time online as compared to people who maybe don't experience that same kind of stigma or don't have those same concerns. Were they frustrated? Did they feel kind of isolated? Did they lack kind of confidence or were they more annoyed rather than intimidated?
- [37:08]
D
So people in key population like the Phiv or the LGBTQ and also the MSM and female sex workers in Vietnam, they have told us about their stories, their concerns about being stigma online and they have mentioned a lot about being stigma when they assess to Facebook, when they were asking about their health condition in some Facebook, private groups and they didn't receive any suggestions. Meanwhile they received more about harassment and being body shaming and they were very worried about it. And also when they joined some telegram groups, they receive a lot of message which is gaming about money. And also they have been threatened by being public their images in some websites, which is they were very worried and they have called the police, but in some case the police didn't help them and then they have to give up talking to the authorities. So that's why they are very care about this project and they hope that this project can be spread to everyone in Vietnam so people can know how about to protect their own digital health when they assess online service like people living with hiv, they want to know about the ARV or know about the treatment or know about the schedule in some hospitals or some clinics. And they will worry about because the website from those hospitals asking them to give information about their condition, their genders maybe and they are a little bit afraid to tell about it. So they want to hide their identity for that reason.
- [39:16]
A
Like I imagine you had to hear a lot of hard stories and people were very kind to share their experiences. And as you say, there's room for work. Was there anything in this study and in your experience of working with these people that gave you some hope that things could get better, that maybe there is a brighter future?
- [39:40]
D
In my opinion, I think that after three years of this project has been launched, I think it can bring more future to people like us and also for the people in those groups. Because if we can know more about digital, can enhance the digital literacy and also have some more training, more meetings and more workshops about this topic, people can gain more knowledge and they can know how to share about this to other people with the same situation like them. And the effect of this project can spread more to more people and I think it can bring more the meaning and people know how to get over these situations and know how to protect themselves if they have experienced those bad situations. And they don't have to worry about being leaked their personal information and leaked their privacy like before in the past. So I think I have a great belief for this future, for this project. And I hope that if Vietnam had another chance to join this next stage of this project, we will do more and maybe do better than now to help more people and can broaden the subject for this research and for this project.
- [41:11]
A
Yeah, thank you so much and thank you for doing this project.
- [41:15]
B
Thank you. Thank you so much.
- [41:28]
A
Thanks for listening. We hope you've enjoyed this series. As much as we've enjoyed being a part of the work of this project, we'll be back in June with a more normal episode of the Tech Pill. In the meantime, you can sign up to be the first to learn more about our work at pbs,
- [41:46]
B
and we'll
- [41:46]
A
include some links to relevant articles and information in the description, including the DHRP research wherever you're listening or on our website@pbcy.org techpill don't forget to rate and subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you use. We'll let Alberta have the last word on the value of the global project.
- [42:09]
C
The beauty of the whole consortium. You get a real time play of how the same issue is cutting across Kenya had a very similar contest as Ghana, Vietnam. They have like a more strict political context. So we really learned the level of collaboration that existed within their networks, like mobilizing themselves. And then for Colombia they are easily able to come up with ideas you know, want to do let's do this because the environment is kind of open. It's just beautiful. They have very beautiful dynamics. It's like just in a real time you are seeing how this same issue is affecting four different countries and then how each of them is addressing it and then you can learn from them as well. Well, that has been great work there.
- [43:18]
A
Music is courtesy of Sepia. This podcast was produced by Max Burnell for privacy.
- [43:26]
D
Sam.