End of Life: Time to X goodbye to Windows 10

Summary

Podcast Summary: Technology Pill – "End of Life: Time to X goodbye to Windows 10"

Podcast: Technology Pill
Host: Privacy International (Gus Hossain & Caitlin)
Guests: Tom West (Programme Director, Corporate Exploitation) & Christopher Weatherhead (Technical Lead)
Episode Date: November 14, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores the end of support ("end of life") for Microsoft Windows 10, discussing how this transition affects user privacy, global digital inequality, the ethical responsibility of software vendors, and the broader industrial trend toward limited support lifespans and increased user lock-in. The panel reflects on the implications for everyday users, schools, hospitals, and global communities, and debates what meaningful tech consumer protection could look like.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Windows 10 End of Life: What’s Happening?

• Windows 10 End of Life: Microsoft has officially ended feature and security updates for Windows 10 as of October 14, 2025 ([03:05]).

• Enormous User Base: An estimated 400 million devices worldwide still use Windows 10, representing roughly 45% of all Windows systems in use ([05:56], [20:35]).

• Security Risks: No further patches mean all newly discovered vulnerabilities remain unaddressed, risking user data and system integrity ([03:59], [06:38], [29:07]).

  "If you continue to use Windows 10 after this date, you are putting yourself at ever greater risk of there being some vulnerability discovered … that Microsoft won't fix."
  — Chris ([03:05])

2. The Global Inequity of Support and Payment

• Extended Service Updates: Microsoft’s paid extension offering varies by region, sometimes requiring either money or personal data ([06:57], [09:14]).

• Privileged vs. Vulnerable Users: Wealthier users/countries face a much lesser cost for extended coverage than those in poorer regions. In Bangladesh, extended security updates could be 10% of an average monthly wage ([09:14]).

• Privacy vs. Poverty: Users may be forced to pay with private data rather than money, deepening the "privacy is a luxury" divide ([08:42]).

  "You're now paying for service with data, which is something that PI has ... advocated against."
  — Chris ([08:42])

3. Sufficiency and Transparency of Support Lifespans

• 10 years isn’t always '10 years': The "10 years of support" promise only applies if you adopted Windows 10 on its first day. Devices still being sold may have no support left ([13:04]).

• Confusion Over Versions: Corporations get longer support (up to 2032 for LTSC), but everyday users get much less ([14:02], [32:27]).

• Transparency Needed: There’s a need for regulated, clear expiry-date labeling on devices, similar to food packaging ([15:21]).

  "You can now buy an out-of-date device, a device that's running an operating system that's going to receive no more updates."
  — Chris ([14:05])

4. Policy – Legislative Progress & Gaps

• The Cyber Resilience Act (CRA): EU-level law mandates 5 years (minimum) of software support, but practical effect is unclear and could weaken over time ([17:19], [17:58], [56:36]).

• Global Standards Needed: Advocacy for legal guarantees on digital product support, to protect users worldwide, not just in the EU ([55:24], [56:36]).

  "We should expect every government across the planet ... to demand that if you are going to sell products in your country, that they should provide security updates."
  — Gus ([55:24])

5. Barriers to Upgrading – Technical and Human

• Hardware Lockout: Many Windows 10 devices cannot upgrade to Windows 11, due to new requirements like TPM or newer processors ([26:14], [27:39]).

• Churn Fatigue: Many users (especially less tech-savvy or strapped for money) simply won’t upgrade, echoing the persistent, vulnerable tail of users seen with Windows XP ([24:47], [25:17]).

• Feature Reluctance: AI features like Microsoft's Copilot and "Recall" (automatic screenshots) are seen as intrusive; requiring account logins and increased data collection raises further privacy and ethical issues ([35:43], [40:01]).

  "There will be devices out there which cannot be upgraded to Windows 11, no matter how good you are at pressing yes."
  — Tom ([26:14])

  "Recall being the system that was going to screenshot every single thing you did … everyone went, that's insane."
  — Caitlin ([35:43])

6. Tech as Infrastructure & User Lock-in

• OS as Infrastructure: Operating systems underpin essential services, and their end-of-life therefore becomes a matter of social responsibility ([12:01], [17:58]).

• Lock-in & Ownership: Debate over whether users “own” their devices or simply lease platform services, as account-gating and cloud-centric features become standard ([39:12], [42:23], [52:09]).

• Analogy: Modern tech products are compared to cars and farm equipment, where users are locked out of repairs or upgrades via software restrictions ([50:08], [52:54]).

  "You’re no longer buying something, you’re leasing it off people and you’re using it at the sort of ... goodwill ... And then of course it brings in the possibility of rent seeking."
  — Tom ([52:09])

7. Alternatives and User Guidance

• Linux & Open Source: For capable users, Linux offers a secure, privacy-respecting alternative, with active community support ([46:42], [53:52]).

• Consumer Reality: No perfect options—some users may bite the bullet and upgrade, others may shield old systems or migrate to Linux, but each path has trade-offs ([54:20]).

• Practical Advice: PI links to a detailed guide and encourages users to push for legal change and greater clarity ([46:42], [54:20], [55:24]).

  "Linux is becoming increasingly less scary … there are certainly versions … designed for people who want to use it."
  — Caitlin ([53:52])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Data for Security:
  "If you're in the EU, you can get [support] free. If you are in the United Kingdom, you can pay $30 ... or you can get it for free if you're prepared to give your data to Microsoft."
  — Chris ([06:57])

• On Old Hardware & Lock-in:
  "We are ... in the realms of BMW, who lock features on your $70,000 car behind a subscription service."
  — Chris ([50:08])

• On Industry Shift:
  "You will only be secure for as long as we’ll let you be secure. But by the way, as we increase the number of steps ... we’re going to get more and more data and own more and more of your journey through life."
  — Gus ([47:56])

• On Transparency:
  "There is a job of work to be done around being clear and transparent with consumers when software support doesn’t exist."
  — Caitlin ([15:21])

• On OS as Infrastructure:
  "These dinosaurs are just part of the infrastructure because they run hospitals and so they have a different set of obligations to society."
  — Gus ([12:01])

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Topic | Timestamp | |---------|-------|-----------| | Introduction – End of Life for Windows 10 | [00:25]–[03:59] | | Security implications & global impact | [03:59]–[10:33] | | Policy & industry standards (support cycles) | [12:01]–[17:24] | | The five-year minimum & limitations of the Cyber Resilience Act | [17:19]–[17:58] | | Hardware, privacy, and update barriers | [24:47]–[29:38] | | Variations in extended support and pricing | [29:38]–[33:38] | | Institutional difficulties (hospitals, schools) | [33:38]–[34:22] | | Windows 11’s controversial features & forced accounts | [35:43]–[41:42] | | Modern OS as lease/service, not product | [39:12], [42:23], [52:09] | | Alternatives & practical advice for users | [46:42]–[55:24] | | Calls for regulatory action, global standards | [55:24]–[56:36] |

---

Tone & Style

The conversation is lively, critical, and often humorous, with a strong advocacy for transparency, digital rights, and user empowerment. The hosts balance deep technical understanding with plain-language explanations and empathy for less tech-savvy listeners, often using analogies (cars, dishwashers, cats, tractors) to illustrate structural issues in tech.

---

Recommended Resources

• Privacy International blog/guide on end of support options
• EU Cyber Resilience Act information
• Guides to Linux and alternative OSes for non-technical users
• Public policy advocacy tips (contact your representatives about device longevity laws)

---

Final Sentiment: Windows 10’s end-of-life is more than a technical deadline: it’s a flashpoint for ongoing battles over user autonomy, privacy, and the obligations owed to the millions who rely on digital infrastructure. The hosts urge listeners to both consider their tech choices and press for better regulation globally.

---

For more content and actions from Privacy International:
Sign up at pvcy.org/podsignup

---

Memorable sign-off:
"[Meow]" ([66:12])

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Technology Pill, a podcast that looks at how technology is reshaping our lives every day and exploring the different ways that governments and companies use tech to increase their power. My name is Gus Hossain and I'm the Executive Director at Privacy International.

[B]

And I'm Caitlin. I'm MPI's campaigns coordinator. Hi.

[A]

Today we're going to be speaking about a small software company based in the northwest corner of the United States of America called Microsoft. They're so small that they have put the micro in their name. And so if you are a user of desktop and laptop computers, odds are you're using one of two different firms operating systems, whether it is Apple, Mac OS or Microsoft Windows, then the next question is, which version of Windows are you using? And a few years ago, Microsoft came out with Windows 11, a shiny new version of Windows that has all this great new functionality, such as a really annoying functionality called Copilot AI, which is their AI version of things. Just have tried to get you stuck into their world. The unfortunate problem for Microsoft, this again, this very small struggling company, is that they have a huge tale of users of over 400 million devices across the world that use their older operating system being Windows 10. And you may have seen the news recently that Windows 10 is essentially dying. Kaitlyn, you call it Schrodinger's cat of death.

[B]

Yes, it's the Schrodinger's cat of operating systems. Microsoft have taken it out the back and shot it, but no one's taken its pulse just yet. Microsoft will no longer be giving Windows 10 security updates, which means any vulnerabilities found in Windows 10 from now on, Microsoft will not be fixing, they claim, however, there are still 400 million-odd devices running Windows 10. And that Schrodinger's box, that cat. We will unpack with Chris and Tom, who are both amazing staff members here at PI. Chris, who's our technology lead, and Tom, who leads our work on corporate exploitation.

[C]

Hi, everyone, I'm Tom West. I'm the programme director at Privacy International for our work on corporate exploitation.

[D]

I'm Christopher Weatherhead, I'm technical lead here at Privacy International.

[B]

Always an open question which job title you're going to go for.

[A]

Yeah, I know.

[B]

Always a moment of, like, anticipation. What's it going to be? The style.

[A]

And the only people who care are the people at PI listening.

[D]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know what my job title is.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

All Purpose Fixer, which is actually why you're here today, because we're here to talk about Windows 10. So would you mind kind of just a brief summary of like why are we here?

[D]

So this week, on Tuesday 14 October, the Windows 10 operating system made by Microsoft reached what Microsoft referred to as end of life. That is they were no longer going to release feature or security updates for it for their general availability audience, that is their normal users, home users, business users, which don't have any of the other additions that Microsoft make. So if you continue to use Windows 10 after this date, you are putting yourself at ever greater risk of there being some vulnerability discovered in Windows 10 that Microsoft won't fix because they're no longer releasing security updates. And that puts your privacy and your data security at risk.

[B]

So what is Windows 10?

[D]

I can't remember exactly which generation of Windows product this is, although it's numbered number 10. It might actually be number 12 or 14, I think because there was some earlier versions.

[A]

Windows 3, Windows 3.1.

[D]

Exactly.

[A]

And then Windows 95, 95, Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows 98.

[C]

Welcome to Windows 9, Windows Vista stuff.

[A]

Windows Vista. Nice job. XP. I forgot about XP.

[D]

Windows Mistake Edition, Windows Me.

[A]

That's right. And they had a mobile one at some point too.

[D]

Yeah, there was some mobile ones as well. So whether it's actually or CE. Yep. So whether this is actually the 10th version of Windows is an open question anyway. Is there mainstream consumer and business operating system for end users, that is terminals for people to use as opposed to their server operating system or some of the other slightly more off brand versions like their mobile version and it was released in 2015, gone through multiple major iterations since then, which Microsoft has referred to as feature updates. They started off having nice names like the Autumn update and the other, you know, this kind of update and they've just resorted to being coded updates. So I think the last version of feature Updates was from 2022 and was in the 22H2 update, which is 2022 half 2, second half of 2022.

[A]

Their marketing team was like, you know, really on this game, weren't they?

[C]

Yeah, but Chris, you're Talking about Windows 10 in the past tense as if it doesn't exist anymore. Right. But it's still. And it's still really popular. It's still very widely used.

[D]

Yeah. So I think it might be one of Microsoft's most popular products still. About 400 million terminals are still using computers still using Windows 10. I think at time of recording the usage between Windows 10 and Windows 11 is somewhere around 50, 50 ish.

[A]

Oh wow.

[C]

I think I saw a graph where they just crossed over, but it would have been recent if they have done. Yeah.

[D]

Yes, they're very closely matched. So Microsoft have ended the Life of

[B]

Windows 10, which Microsoft have taken it out back and shot it repeatedly.

[D]

Yeah, taking it to a farm upstate, which is actually a little bit of a misnomer because there is quite a lot to be said, which is why we're doing a podcast on it about what's actually going on here.

[A]

Okay, so what does PI have skin in the game on this one? What do we want out of this?

[D]

So I run a project at PI around securing our digital lives. And an aspect of that is around software support and life cycles and advocating for longer software support and life cycles, both for the security and privacy reasons, as well as the ethical, environmental reasons of keeping devices running for longer. But there's an older piece of work we did around privacy and luxury, where if you can afford to pay more often, your privacy is better protected than if you're poorer, less economically mobile, whatever the right time is. And the Windows 10 Extended Service Update system is just another instantiation of this. If you're in the eu, you can get access to it for free. If you are in the United Kingdom, you can pay $30, which I think is about 25, 26 quid, or you can get it for free if you're prepared to give your data to Microsoft. If you're in Kenya, you can pay $30 or give your information to Microsoft. And if you're in Bangladesh, you can give Microsoft $30 or you can pay with your data. In one of those countries, 25 quid, 26 pounds is not a lot of money. In another one of those countries is quite a lot of money. So your interest in paying with your data changes. So you're now paying for service with data, which is something that PI has for a long time advocated against.

[C]

It makes me think of the ongoing conversation debates, outrage around the use of pay or okay or consent or pay banners. For those based in the EU or uk, you probably have come up against these. They're like a cookie banner. But instead of asking you to reject or accept or more likely go into a never ending loop of annoying clicking, they ask you to subscribe or accept cookies, which is a practice which again is doing this. It's looking for people to either cough up their money or to have their privacy respected in line with their rights.

[B]

I just quickly looked it up and according to a website called Remote People, the average salary in Bangladesh is approximately 26,000 Bangladesh taka, which translates to about 213 USD. So $30 out of someone on the average salary in Bangladesh is just over 10% of their monthly income. And this is the thing, right? PI cares about principals. PI has to care about Microsoft because of the sheer number, the volume of people on it, right? We care about the privacy of those 400 million kind of computer installs, but let's pretend it's one person performing computer. We care about the privacy of those 400 million people and the potential vulnerability of their computers because we care about privacy. But it's not that we care about Microsoft specifically. We care about kind of the principles involved, we care about the privacy involved, we care about the cybersecurity involved. And PI, for a number of years, as part of securing our digital lives, has been talking about longer software support. And I think one of the things that's kind of interesting on this is PI has been asking for a minimum of 10 years of software support. And that's what Microsoft has technically given us. Like, why are we giving them shit for it?

[C]

I think there's a difference between operating systems and other forms of software as well, right? Because the operating system is so crucial to what the device is doing. But yeah, I mean, it is a fair point saying, look, it has been around for a long time. Why is it not long enough? I go back to this point about saying, look at the usage still and the amount of people that are potentially at risk because of that. When we think about other sort of more esoteric devices and everything now has some sort of software in it. And this question of will its lifetime be dependent on its kind of physical capabilities to function? Will your dishwasher break down first because it no longer can, I don't know, take the water in and spit it out the right places, or will it start to break down first because there's a problem in the software which either they can't fix or they don't want to fix. And I don't know, this kind of becomes a bit of a problem when devices or items which are otherwise serviceable can no longer be used because of limitations in how that software is being used. Now, obviously the question with laptops is quite interesting because as we set out in the blog we wrote, there are options available for people who have devices which work fine but don't meet the Spec. For Windows 11, you can install other operating systems. That might be an interesting learning curve for some people. It might be too much of a learning curve for some other people, but there are other devices in which you can't do that.

[A]

Okay, so let me put a different gloss because Tom, I want to disagree, but that's a really good example with the dishwasher. I don't like any of the companies that build operating systems. You know, I don't like them as companies. But it does sound like, going back to Caitlin's point, it does sound like we're expecting more of these companies, like we were expecting a noblesse oblige, which is they made their money ages ago, they invested as much as they could in order to create code, and now we're telling them they owe us more than anybody else owes us, that they owe people 10 years of service when we wouldn't expect that from a small software company starting up. Which then begs the question, maybe operating system companies are different. You know, we don't, we're not looking for a new OS company to innovate all of a sudden and come out with a new OS to, to replace the current dinosaurs. We're instead saying these dinosaurs are just part of the infrastructure because they run hospitals and so they have a different set of obligations to society.

[D]

I think that's a more so mapping that we have to be a little bit careful about. Going back to Caitlin's question as well around why does 10 years not seem like enough when this is 10 years? But this 10 years requires a few things. Firstly, you have to be a first adopter to get that full 10 year cycle. You have to have bought Windows 10 on day one of its public release. And all the pitfalls of doing that where lots of your apps won't work, lots of your drivers might not install, whatever the issues are with that on day one, you know, you've got to just lump that because you want to have the longest service life of your device. There's nothing staying. You didn't buy your device halfway through that period or even yesterday. You can still buy Windows 10 operated system devices off Amazon. Other retailers are available equally.

[B]

Retailers are available, yes.

[D]

So you could still buy, you can now buy an out of date device, a device that's running an operating system that's going to receive no more updates. You didn't get 10 years of software, so you got no software support at all. Microsoft would argue it's on you to make sure you get something that is supported. But not everyone is like keeping up with what Microsoft's product portfolio is. I know they would love us to, but people aren't. And then also finally, which version are we talking about? Because those feature updates that Microsoft releases are Quite large changes. Sometimes organizations, again going back to places like hospitals or schools might not actually deploy a feature update because it breaks something, changes something. So they might not even be running 22H2. They might be running an older version 22H1, whatever. So is it three years of software support from the last feature update or is it 10 years of support for all of the lifetime of Windows 10? And then corporations are getting, you know, they're obviously paying over the odds for their operating system, but they're getting a lot longer support cycles. And why are consumers treated differently?

[B]

Well, so there are a couple of really good points that Chris has made. One is packaging and expiry dates is something we've been asking for for a long time, since in fact the low cost tech work that we did half a decade ago because we were finding you could pick up Google phones, Android phones long past their software support dates with all this branding that said they were protected, which simply wasn't true. So there is a job of work to be done around being clear and transparent with consumers when software support doesn't exist. But my point around 10 years was not that what we're asking for is adequate and Microsoft has done us a huge favor by meeting our demands. My point was the minimum that we are asking for is 10 years. The minimum that we're asking for is because that's much better than what people currently get. By no means do I think that is necessarily adequate. In particular, as Chris is saying, other companies would have rebranded some of those feature releases as new operating systems. And it seems unreasonable to keep calling it Windows 10 so that you can claim 10 years of software support when maybe that's just not what you're getting. I also think it's really optimistic of you, Tom, to think that the kind of operating system data that goes into an operating system that isn't secure and needs to be maybe supported for longer. I think the more devices get introduced into our homes that have increasingly invasive kind of data collection technologies in them, the longer we're going to desperately need them to have adequate security and software support beyond even keeping your dishwasher running. So I was being a bit of a. I was being a bit annoying, but my point was not that. Well, Microsoft has done us a solid. My point is that the rest of the industry has been screwing people over massively and PI has been arguing at the European Union around the Cyber Resilience act, which is a piece of EU legislation which I think we got five years of software support in, right?

[D]

Yes. The CRA as enacted right now has five years of software support.

[B]

It's a minimum.

[D]

Minimum unless other criteria are met. However, the actual period of implementation is over three years. And between now and then there's going to be a review as to whether the current written legislative power is actually appropriate. So in another year's time they might decide that their five years was overly ambitious and it might be watered down. So although it's in there right now, we do have to take it with a pinch of salt.

[C]

Yes. I mean, I didn't mean to be saying it's okay if your dishwasher is not supported for a long time at all. My point was more this matters in all sorts of different bits. But I think the bit that I want to go back to is Gus used the word infrastructure. And I think that's where oss are a large part of that digital infrastructure. And that's why you don't just go, okay, 10 years, fair game, that's enough. Because these are so essential and crucial to not quite everyone, but a lot of people and all of the things we do and everything that's built on top of it and everything that we do in our day to day lives to work from. Which is why that you have to say, you know, there is, I think additional responsibility and demands that can come with providing services which people are dependent on,

[D]

I think to keep it accurate. To start with Microsoft, when they release version updates, they used to call them service packs. They now call them feature updates. They would at the point of release say how long they planned to support that version. So when 22H2 was released, they said it would have three years of software support, which meant that its end date was in October 2025.

[A]

When they issued 22H2, were they clear that this was going to be the last one?

[D]

Interesting question. I think they said that this was the last major feature update because by that point Windows 11 had already been released.

[A]

So that was my next question. When was Windows 11 introd?

[D]

You are asking a question I do not know the answer to. Let me Google that.

[C]

What I do know is it's been out for less time than Windows 10 had been when previous versions of Windows to that interesting had end of life.

[D]

Windows 11 was 5th of October 2021.

[B]

So four years ago.

[A]

Okay, so Windows 11 has been out for four years. Windows 10, the last feature update was in 2022 and they made a statement about how long they would keep the security updates for that. How long Was that?

[D]

So 2022 H2, the last feature update for Windows 10 was released on October 18, 2022, which meant it got three years of software support. So support ended on October 14, 2025.

[A]

Wow. They weren't being generous at all. Like they counted leap hours and seconds in there.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think for me what really matters about it is that they have reached this end of life moment for Windows 10 when there's still like significant number of people still using it. Whereas previously when support has been ended, they've been much more minority products operating systems. Whereas we've seen like 400 million or 45% of people are still using it, I guess because it still works for them and still meets all their needs. Like the amount of advancements that we need in what our tech can do has got less over recent years as basically now it's fairly easy to have a device which can do all manner of things which most people don't use on a day to day basis. So now we're in a situation where Windows 10 works fine for everyone, it's very popular. But we've now hit a point where that is now in direct conflict with, with those devices remaining secure and things that people really can be confident and safe in using.

[B]

So when Windows say they've ended security support, what does that actually mean? What does that look like for them?

[D]

So for systems that are in their support window, Microsoft release a mix of different kinds of security updates. They usually release once a month a security roll up which is all of the various security related fixes for their operating systems. These could be for various of the subsystems and services that the operating system has, for vulnerabilities that are known about or vulnerabilities that have been disclosed to Microsoft and have yet to be used or reported on. Sometimes they do have to release emergency patches which are often whenever there's a imminent risk. But most of the security updates come through these monthly roll ups on the what's often referred to as Patch Tuesday, although I'm not sure whether they're still on patch Tuesdays. I think there's a little bit more a rolling release model these days, but historically there used to be a patch Tuesday where everyone should jump in and get all their patches installed on that Tuesday when they're first released.

[B]

Is that why they ended software support on a Tuesday?

[D]

Quite possibly actually. Well, it's the last roll up it came out on Tuesday was the last security patch for Windows 10.

[B]

And the last security patch from now on is from their perspective, transfer to Windows 11.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

So if I obviously as a super cool and super Ethical and wonderful hacker find a huge security flaw in Windows 10 and I do the responsible thing and disclose it ethically to Microsoft. Their response from now on will be thanks, but like why are you telling

[D]

us yes, but also no. So Windows xp, which is going back a few years, was in a similar situation in April 2014. I believe Windows XP stopped being supported by Microsoft. But a few years later there was a critical vulnerability discovered in how it used its network sharing subsystem called SMB. This was notoriously exploited in the WannaCry malware. And Microsoft released a out of band software update for all users of Windows XP to mitigate patch even though the software is out of support. So there may be a scenario where Microsoft will release further patches, but it's not part of their plan as it were.

[B]

WannaCry was 2017 and XP fell out of software support 2014. Yes, and as Tom already said, there's like 45% of people still using Windows 10. That very long tail on Windows XP, that lots of kind of significant infrastructure things got caught out in the WannaCry malware. We're still using Windows XP. Is that the kind of tail we expect to see on Windows 10?

[D]

I imagine it will be very similar that tail off. So for Windows 10 to Windows 11 doesn't necessarily have the same advantages as moving from say Windows xp to Windows 7 as was available in 2014. There were quite a few. A big shift in how the software and its capabilities were compared to Windows XP in many ways. Whereas the shift between Windows 10 and 11 is less obvious.

[C]

You've got to factor in as well the advantage for my mum or other everyday users of just not pressing the update button because they don't get round to it. It's in the way. It's a hassle. The thing works for them as they want it to. With this large number of people using a device which is targeted at the mass market, I suspect there will be lots of people who could Upgrade to Windows 11 but won't do for quite some time just because they don't do it.

[A]

So say you bought a computer in 2017 and it was running Windows 10 just fine. If you want to run Windows 11, do you have to buy a new computer? Is the bump in its specs so great that not only is it Tom's scenario of Tom's mom not wanting to do an update because she can't be bothered to install Apache, required to update to restart her computer because most people haven't restarted the computer for a long time, or is it I can't afford a new computer, so I'm going to keep my old computer, my old OS.

[C]

There is extra technical requirements for Windows 11 compared to Windows 10, which, again, I don't think was the case when Windows 10 came about. I think it's called the TPM. Chris certainly will know more detail around that exact additional requirement for Windows 11. But, yeah, to answer the question, Gus, there will be devices out there which cannot be upgraded to Windows 11, no matter how good you are at pressing yes. Which you should do when the update button comes up.

[D]

I think there's two factors to this. One is that Microsoft have changed the system requirements. And I mean, Initially on Windows 11's release, they were actually quite steep. You needed to have a computer that was released probably after 2017 to even consider being able to install, because in its vanilla form, Windows 11 has processor restrictions, older processors aren't supported. And yes, as Tom alluded to, Trusted Platform Module or a TPM is a requirement, according to Microsoft, of deploying Windows 11.

[C]

Although at one point didn't they suggest that there was a workaround for that as well, and then withdrew it. We linked to it in the piece we wrote around. There was this sort of idea that there might be a way around this. And then Windows went, no, hang on, that's obviously a bad idea. We can't do that. Which just goes to the way in which I think Microsoft have been. Well, they've changed their mind and changed their messaging quite a few times around the options available to people with Windows 10 devices.

[D]

There has been a lot of chopping and changing in their language and what they've offered to different parts of the world, which will probably come onto at some point. But the official line from Microsoft is you need to have a processor that's of a certain age or certain modernness, and you need to have a TPM and certain other capacities are required for this system to run Windows 11. In actuality, though, most of these are faux requirements. There are, as you alluded to, Tom, workarounds for a number of them. Because Windows 11 is based on Windows 10, which is based on Windows 8, which is based on Windows 7. And there's a number of different things that you can pull or use from various versions of Windows to make them work with other versions. The infrastructure hasn't changed so much that some stuff can't be manipulated or hacked to get Windows 11 running on unsupported hardware. The downside of this, or at least Microsoft would contest that they could change this, you know, ability to run Unsupported hardware anytime. And, you know, you could be left out in the cold with a Windows 11 system that won't even boot, for example.

[A]

It blows my mind. There's 400 million devices out there, 45% of the user base of the two operating systems that are essentially going to become insecure. Well, have, for the last three days, have in essence become insecure. Because if the hacker Caitlin identifies a vulnerability that's less than something that can be used in WannaCry, people are left vulnerable. Yeah, their system, they're left vulnerable.

[C]

Unless. And this on the messaging point as well, this is the thing that there are these other sort of options available for continuing security Support under Windows 10. So initially when Microsoft had announced this, they talked about extended support updates, or ESU. I think it was initially just for business customers. $60 for the first year, then 120, then 240. And people complained, and then they said, okay, you can have it for individuals for $30. And then people complained and then they said, okay, schools can have it for $1, because schools have got loads of devices too, and they're schools. And then what was the next one? I think they then said, okay, you can have it for free, but only if you link your usage to a Microsoft account and back up all your data with us. And that caused some problems in the eu, because now people in EEA countries, which is the eu, plus a few others, Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein, maybe they now will get access to for free for a year. So there's like so many different variables, and it depends as to what actually you'll be able to have for your device and what's available to you. And it hasn't been constant over the last year, 18 months at all.

[A]

And what's the actual cost? I guess there's no easy answer because there's so many different types of users. But is Windows 11 expensive?

[C]

It's free if you have Windows 10 to upgrade, if you meet the compatibility requirements from windows 10 to 11. I think there was some messaging somewhere which kind of did that. It's free for now kind of thing. Right. You know where it's sort of suggesting. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's no charge today. And obviously Microsoft may have incentives. Why they want to try and push people onto Windows 11 for other reasons too. But, yeah, I don't think they've seen concrete evidence right now that, you know, they're going to start charging on this day, but you might have to buy a new device.

[D]

I think just to clear up as well, like, we're Talking a lot here about Windows 10 and we're specifically really talking about the, as Microsoft would refer to it, the General Availability Channel or gac, which is the version of Windows that you get with a laptop when you buy it from Dell, or the version of Windows if you go into the store and buy a copy. And it's often the version that's installed by small and medium sized businesses. There are various other versions of Windows that are still going to remain supported. The notable ones I think will probably be the LTSC or the long term servicing channel that Microsoft use for particularly large enterprises. Their support continues. I think there's still 2032.

[A]

Wow.

[D]

Because they get 10 years of software support on the last version of a LTSC release. So if the last version was in 2022, then they get 10 years till 2032. As Tom alluded to, there's the extended support updates which has been flip flopped around. And now consumers on the General Availability version can get one year of support, but businesses can get up to three years of support. And it's a ratcheting cost. So the first year is cheaper than the second year which is more expensive, and the third year more expensive still as Microsoft tries and encourages companies to move away. And of those 400 million users, a lot of them will be companies. And as a subset of that, a lot of those users will be things like hospitals who have line of business applications that aren't tested in Windows 11 environments or are connected to hardware that only has drivers available for Windows 10.

[B]

It's also worth noting with hospitals it's extremely difficult to reboot machines because sometimes you just can't turn something off unless the same thing is available on another computer. And often hospitals have older infrastructure because again, replacing stuff such that you can turn something off can be extremely difficult. So if you want to update every single computer in a hospital, it's very difficult to do it all at the same time. It's very difficult to do it at all, particularly as their infrastructure tends to be older. And yeah, even if you didn't face those driver problems, sometimes you need all the machines to be able to talk to each other and some of them being off isn't really an option.

[D]

Yep. Like some machines are pre set up to only work in some environment. For example, an MRI machine might only work with software that only works with Windows 10. And I think hospitals might feel like they're in a little bit of a bind here because if they'd succumbed to WannaCry in 2017 and been pushed into updating after the event, a lot of the UK, for example, the NHS services were specifically victims of the WannaCry malware. They would have upgraded to Windows 10 in 2018 time after they'd recovered their systems and now they're in another position to have to upgrade yet again. So it's quite burdensome. And the other side of particularly healthcare contexts is that there are often other regulatory requirements on their systems beyond just the availability of patches and security updates and, you know, driver compatibility. You know, there's. Because they're often used in critical care scenarios, they have to go through a load of other kinds of auditing and requirement checking before they're allowed to be used in public.

[B]

When it comes as well to reasons not to switch over to Windows 11, Microsoft have not been covering themselves in glory necessarily with some of the features available in Windows 11. In particular, recall being the system that was going to screenshot. Every single thing you did on your computer was initially one of the more visible new features that was going to be available in Windows 11. Like, there was a lot of advertising and talking about recall and everyone went, that's insane. That's a completely unreasonable thing to do. What are you doing? And given that Chris was talking about hospitals, it's worth noting would be mad in a hospital, taking screenshots of absolutely everything someone is doing on a computer, including sensitive health information, would be a choice. And then recall became something you could turn on and off and then it got removed and then it came back. But if I was thinking about do I want to Update to Windows 11? I would also be thinking about do I want some of these weird new AI features that Microsoft has been advertising? And to be honest, a lot of the time the answer would be no, I don't.

[A]

And so let me try to be generous for a second and give an opportunity for generosity. Why do we have OS updates? And this is. I'm not trying to sound like an idiot who doesn't understand innovation. My understanding of operating systems goes back to the 1980s. I've used almost all the operating systems that have existed since the 1980s. And I don't know why we keep on innovating so much at the OS level. But I imagine OS design has evolved more than I think it has, which is, does my floppy drive connect to the motherboard and can the data from the disk be understood by the computer? It's a little bit more advanced now, sure. But did we need Windows 11 like. Or is it just an AI add on in the way that Apple tried to sell the last iOS in the same way, is there something genuinely interesting about Windows 11 that is in the interests of the world to move on from Windows 10?

[C]

I mean, I don't know from the technical side around the floppy disk and things like that, but I think the fact you still have such wide usage of Windows 10 suggests that it's still meeting lots of people's needs. Right. And there may be lots of reasons why people don't want to use Windows 11 and the sort of mainstreaming of AI features into it, which we're seeing, I guess, not just on this, but on lots of different tech services that we're being provided now. Absolutely might be one of them. I think that AI question is relevant to what I was mentioning earlier around this sort of, instead of paying for upgrades, being able to sort of say, oh, don't worry, I'll upload all my data onto Microsoft services. Well, there might be all sorts of reasons why they want that as well. Right. And I think for me, what that also brings up is this kind of bigger question of like the ways in which users can be locked in to these products, these services that are being provided by companies. And then it's very difficult for them to say, well, actually maybe I want to do it a different way, maybe that doesn't quite work for me. So while of course there's all sorts of ways why people may like Windows 10, may not like Windows 11, blah, blah, blah, and so on and so forth, in some ways it's important to think about it from the point of view of the user and saying, look, is this a device or product which you are now owning and can now do what works for you with and as you wish with? Or is this in some ways a service you're leasing of a company and you have to work with it the way that they want to use it.

[D]

So I think there's a lot of good reasons not to want to Upgrade to Windows 11. Key ones will be for users having to use Microsoft account to log into their desktop machine or laptop machine, rather than being able to use a local user account. There were workarounds for this, but Microsoft is trying to close that loophole in the latest builds, it now requires you to have a Microsoft account. There's the all encompassing specter of Copilot integration and sharing information in a way that is currently still unclear. Exactly how data is shared with CoPilot is used and trained and where it goes.

[A]

So Copilot being the Microsoft implementation of AI for users?

[D]

Yes. Copilot is Microsoft's equivalent of ChatGPT. It's a large language model, but it can do image generation and all sorts of other things as well. And then as Caitlin alluded to, there is recall that won't necessarily be true of a lot of devices because I believe it requires a Copilot plus capable machine. Yeah, it's a trajectory that a lot of users are uncomfortable with and you can understand why they would be uncomfortable with that.

[A]

I think I'm actually particularly pissed that you have to have a Microsoft account under Windows 11. That's outrageous.

[D]

I agree.

[C]

Yeah. Well, I think this is why in the EEA they ended up having to give it out free, because, well, I mean, the final statement from Microsoft didn't tie it so directly, but certainly consumer groups had complained to Microsoft saying, oh, you can't do that. You can't bundle the availability of your. The security of your service to also having this account. Article 66 I think of the DMA was what they pointed to, what the Digital Markets act. That is, I think, is what they pointed towards for that. Now, not everything quite got stitched together, but you can see how it can be. And yeah, it's again, this point of saying, if I want to use one Microsoft product or service in one place, does that mean I have to use it for everything across every single product feature I want to be using? Of course, there's lots of ways in which those do get stitched together. And yeah, that's why I think we've ended up in a situation where if you're in the eea, you do get one more year.

[A]

It links back to my question about why do we have operating system updates? And I'm going to ask this to the computer scientists amongst us. Like, has computing changed dramatically enough that we need to think about operating systems differently? So arguably it's the addition of AI. Sure, that's the most recent version, but even the addition of a user account that's linked to the operating system provider, that's a different type of operating system than the operating systems of previous eras. An operating system was software that ran locally that told your computer how to run other things on your computer. Has that changed? And is Windows 11 just a version of that change?

[D]

I think there's bits on multiple angles for this. So that is some hardware differences that have materialized over time that cause Windows 11 to be more capable than Windows 10 for handling certain kinds of hardware. The graphical side is relatively stagnated. I believe Windows 10 has DirectX 12 and Windows 11. They're still using DirectX 12. There's not been a new graphical subsystem library. But one of the things that has changed is that processing cores in devices, particularly laptops, now are split between energy efficiency and performance, which is not something that was available when Windows 10 was released and has to be backported in if you want to make it work in Windows 10. So where certain cores in your device operate at a higher speed but use more power and other cores operate at lower speed and use less power, so the battery life is extended. There are probably other numerous changes within hardware generally usually performance improvements, faster SSDs, more capable RAM, although they're usually quite agnostic to the operating system. Only when drivers need to be changed or new protocols get released does precipitate an operating system update. And then it's really interesting on the connectivity side because a lot of what a desktop, like a home user experience is now is what a corporate experience has been for the last 20 years, where you logged into a domain where there was a policy assigned to you and you could access everything through a single sign on interface. So you know, you logged into your corporate domain and you got instant access to Outlook because it knew you who you were. And then you got instant access to the contact system because it knew, you know, that you were in the accountancy department and you'd want to talk to all the other accountants, for example. And we've now got to the point where this information is now part of the home experience. You log in, you get signed into your browser which keeps all your passwords and your shortcuts and your bookmarks. You know, you're signed into Copilot and it knows, knows quote unquote about you. You know, it can address you as your username, whatever. So that's a change. And it's a slightly different experience. I recently had this experience with my brother in law where as a privacy person, I'm like you, Gus. I like the local account, everything stays on my machine. And I was trying to convince my brother in law who also was on Windows 10 to upgrade to Windows 11. I said, oh, if you can get access to it, you can use the enterprise version. And a lot of this stuff, the copilots and the store integration and the advertising are all bolt ons for the Enterprise because enterprises don't really want this.

[A]

Exactly.

[D]

But he was like, oh no, I can't use this because I can't sign in with my Microsoft account because the enterprise version expects you to sign in to an enterprise network. And I was just surprised that someone was so enamored by Microsoft's account service. But it's just interesting how different people

[A]

use different devices and probably a Hotmail account. I betcha he has a Hotmail account. What can we say for people who are listening who didn't know this before, who are using Windows 10? Can we make resources available to them so they can understand what their options are and what the implications of those options are like? Chris, before you alluded that there are alternative operating systems, but we don't want to tell somebody to install an alternative operating system. But if they wanted to go and learn, can we point them in these directions?

[D]

So we wrote a blog post or a long read about this, but there is some suggestions there around what you could do next. As you say, there are other operating systems, various forms of Linux being the most likely to be an option that will run on older hardware and maintain a security footing. Security updates. There are also other alternatives from other companies. A certain search giant has an operating system based on their browser. I don't think PI would recommend that one, but.

[B]

Well, PI would technically recommend nothing, but would maybe strongly recommend against do your updates.

[C]

We'd recommend doyour updates. Right.

[D]

So I mean it is an operating system is very secure. But if you're, and if you're okay with that search company Google, you know, using all your data to increase its search dominance, then that's fine. But obviously we as privacy advocates think it's pretty sketchy crap behaviour. Yeah, sketchy for them to use your data to try and increase their search dominance.

[A]

Yeah, but sorry Chris, I'm the first to agree that Chrome OS is relatively secure. It pisses me off because it's exactly the same problem we're dealing with, which is what we want for everybody right now is that they have devices that they own and love and use and they are kept secure for as long as possible. And what Microsoft is saying, from what I understand from this discussion, which drives me nuts because I didn't know any of this ahead of time, that essentially the path of least resistance is you update to a new OS and you have to create a user account with Microsoft, which is the exact same destination you would get to with Chrome os, which is why I've hated Chrome OS. And just this industry shift towards you will only be secure for as long as we'll let you be secure. But by the way, as we increase the number of steps you have to go through in order to be secure, we're going to get more and more data and own more and more of your journey through life. That's just pissing me off. So I'm not going to be happy with a recommendation of Chrome os. Sorry, that was a rant. Just because you brought the Chrome OS red flag to this bull, or charge

[C]

you more and more money, or find other ways to lock you in to other features and services, or make it so that actually you can't use whatever feature without it also going off to the AI service and so on and so forth. So your question of what should people do? I mean, people should find out if their device is still running Windows 10, if it can update and what their options are and think about all those different options. We've set out a load of suboptimal options for different reasons, but in some ways I think maybe if I can be optimistic again, it's a chance for people to actually kind of really think about, well, what is the tech that they need, how does it work for them, what do they need it for, what are they using it for? And how can it be something where they're like, oh, actually this is what I want and to try and get a little bit of control over that back and that's hard for all the reasons we're talking about, but to try and think about how, what's the actual product and service that I need and how can I kind of put that in place rather than just kind of being spoon fed and being dependent.

[D]

I mean, we're moved into the whole ball game. We're moved into the realms of Tesla, who can issue a software update to give you more range. We've moved into the realms of BMW, who lock features on your $70,000 car behind a subscription service. We are, and you know, we were talking about dishwashers. Cars are the got to be one of the worst offenders here for having software that goes out of date when the car's longevity far outlasts the various satellite navigation systems and infotainment systems. You know, I've got a car that has an app for Twitter on it that doesn't work because Twitter is now X.

[B]

And, and also why are you using Twitter from your car?

[D]

I know so many questions and this,

[A]

this is why I never liked Surveillance Capital as a concept, because it doesn't capture all of this horrible stuff that you're all talking about, which is a disposable tech world that focuses on bringing you deeper and deeper into the ecosystems of very powerful players already. And if you don't fully comply, including with the monthly payments or the buying of new services to unlock features of hardware you already own, then you're not the ideal citizen for the future and that's not the way this all started and it's not the way it has to be. And now we're seeing operating systems essentially move to the cloud, like with OpenAI's latest innovations around how they will run apps for you so that those apps on their servers can order you that car, can book you that place at the restaurant. And so everything's becoming as a service. And these companies, I don't know if you've noticed, they become meaner and meaner and more tech right winger.

[C]

You're no longer buying something, you're leasing it off people and you're using it at the sort of, you know, with the goodwill. And then of course it brings in the possibility of rent seeking as well, that possibility to say, oh, actually like Chris was saying, unlock this extra feature if you want to use it. And you're kind of already a bit like, well, where do I look around? So the analogy with cars, I mean, we could probably talk for a long time about the analogy with cars, but you know, there was a time when you had a car and you maybe could understand a bit about how it worked, but you could certainly go to like anywhere else, any old garage to get it fixed and work it up. And we've moved away from that model. Well, yeah, you no longer have a product which is yours and you can work out how you're going to use it and what you're going to do with it, but rather it's like, oh, you're restrained and restricted and what it can be used for.

[B]

I mean, to continue the car analogy, farmers have been fighting John Deere for years who have massively restricted how farmers can repair their tractors, which a huge hulking piece of machinery that should last an extraordinarily long time.

[D]

I mean, the price of a tractor's in the quarter of a million dollars range.

[B]

Yeah, but I mean, to come back to the things that people can do, if you want to avoid all this stuff, then you do have extremely limited options and you are going to have to get a tiny bit technical for a greater or lesser value of technical. And that sounds scary. I think Linux is becoming increasingly less scary. I think there are so many projects around Linux, so many versions of Linux that can be overwhelming. And there are certainly versions of Linux that are very, very designed for people who want to play with it, but there are also versions that are designed for people who want to use it, you know, and I don't want to turn people off that as an Option, because it is a very good option.

[C]

Yeah, I agree. I think there's a bunch of non scary options and there's also loads of support, both online and actually at the moment in the real world as well. People are doing cafes and support groups and things like that, partly because of the Windows 10 end of life, end of support. But yeah, in some ways that's certainly an option and it's what someone needs to go and look at it and think about is that the right option for me and what I need and what I want. But yeah, nothing necessarily is going to tick everyone's boxes.

[B]

Yeah, I think sometimes we think about things like what's the perfect option or what would be the perfect solution? And partly because of the political and economic environment and market environment, which is partly a political environment anyway, the conditions that we're under, there are no perfect options. But also because every person's individual needs are different, individual tech kind of comfort levels are different. And so what works for you might be, I'm just going to Upgrade to Windows 11. What works for someone else might be I'm going to, you know, try and have a go at Linux. What works for someone else might be. You know, one of the suggestions in the long read which we'll link in the description is if you use it for something specific, it might make sense to, you know, shield the system and just use it for that thing. So there are loads of options. We've outlined them kind of in a bit more detail than I'll read. I say we, Tom and Chris, I had absolutely nothing to do with it. I've just read it and it's quite easy to read and easy to remember. So we'll add it to the link in the description and you can find all of our work on this topic because we've been doing it for a number of years on our website.

[A]

One of the things that people can do is actually also to speak to their elected officials to say, why doesn't the law of my country protect me from this kind of insecurity? So, for instance, that's how we were able, through many years of work, to get the EU to establish rules about how long a company that sells a device in the EU has to maintain the security updates of those devices. And it shouldn't just be to the eu. Now, by us getting that into EU law, it does kind of set a standard for the world. But as we know, companies are very good at trying to sidestep regulation, so we should expect every government across the planet on the back of this lesson of Windows 10 to demand that if you are going to sell products and hardware in a country, in your country, that they should provide security updates so the people and the infrastructure, including government run infrastructure in your country is kept secure for a longer period.

[B]

I think that's a really good point. And if people are interested in keeping up to date on our work in this area, including any actions that we're going to be asking you to take soon, you should definitely sign up to one of our mailing lists@ PVCUI.org podsignup Even if you're in the EU, don't feel safe. The EU are currently discussing the Cyber Resilience Act. There's still few years until it's going to be practically implemented, so it would be worth emailing your MEP and saying good job. This is a good piece of law. It doesn't go far enough, but I'm pleased that the EU has managed to achieve this and try and help protect it for the long term to ensure that those five years of software support are the five years that you actually receive when the law is actually implemented.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

I think they've been really caught off guard by how many people are still on Windows 10. I think they've been caught off guard by how dramatic a shift it's going to be. Part of why this is such a big deal is because most of the time, if you're buying a desktop, you're building your own. Pretty cool, cool that you do that. You know, you're buying a laptop, whatever, you've got two choices and one of them probably is Microsoft and one of them probably is iOS, is Apple and maybe you have a tablet, a Chromebook, whatever, and you're engaging with Chrome os, but there's not that many of you, most of you are doing the first two. And so you don't have a huge number of choices. And I think that comes back to what Tom was saying About Digital Markets act comes back to what PI's been working on when it comes to market capture and market dominance and comes back to 400 million people. And that's not because you know this is the best operating system the world's ever seen. It's because you don't have a huge number of choices. You know, it's a lot of freaking people.

[C]

It's a lot of people. And to go back to my mum, that point of why does she need to be going into this detailed research around this? She should be able to have something which works for her, meets her needs and Also people sometimes, especially people who are not tech savvy, they don't like it when like their interface changes.

[B]

Oh, I hate it.

[C]

Yeah, exactly right.

[B]

You don't have to be tech savvy. I hate change.

[C]

And so you're like, where's everything gone? How do I do everything? And if you're already in a situation where you feel a little bit overwhelmed by all of these things, which actually, yes, all of us do actually, then that moment of being like everything is now different. Why can't I've just been how it was before? It's just another thing to like layer onto people.

[A]

Oh, so just to disagree with both of you at such a fundamental layer. The only reason I update an operating system so I can get the new interface, that's only shiny stuff.

[C]

Shiny stuff, yeah.

[D]

I mean Gus is going to hate me for bringing this one up but like if you're an Apple user and you're using icloud for backup, good luck trying to move your backups anywhere else. You know, you're now locked in to paying. It might only be at this stage 99p a month to get you a 50 gig of data but like you're locked in and that's repeat revenue forever.

[B]

I mean have we accidentally done like an hour long advert for Cory Doctorow's new book Inshittification? We're definitely cutting that out but it's still funny.

[A]

Yeah. And for what it's worth, we haven't been mean to Apple in any of this and, and I wonder why because they do constantly say these devices are end of life. They do constantly say a new operating system will not extend to devices bought before this year. What's the difference here? Chris?

[D]

I think there's a couple of things that are different. Firstly, there's an expectation difference and this is just because of the way that Apple sells hardware as opposed to Microsoft Windows running on a load of OEMs hardware, different providers hardware in that your operating system is somewhat latched to when you bought your hardware. So if you buy a MacBook today, it'll be running the latest version of Mac OS and you should expect to get like seven years of software support out of it. And I mean it's got a little bit shorter as they've tried to kick out all the intel models out of their range and MacBook side but you're getting a well known quantity which is just, you know, it's like it's a security of mind I guess. I mean it's not dissimilar from What Microsoft's trying to do, it's just that you know what you're getting when you buy something which is better. And I think the other thing though, Apple kind of are doing better, at least on their MacBook range. It doesn't apply quite so much to stuff on iOS is it's still a local device for the most part. You can sign into icloud. It does ask you to sign into icloud, but it doesn't force you to sign into icloud. You know, you can use most of the functionality of the device without having it check in repeatedly.

[B]

That's very nice. But their software supports like seven years. So you're buying an extraordinarily expensive piece of technology. I mean some of their stuff is obscenely expensive and they are expecting you to use it for seven years, which doesn't seem like a lot of time if you divide the cost of the machine across those seven years, like at all.

[D]

I don't know. I think we're getting to a very deep discussion about ROI. A lot of businesses are using MacBooks because the ROI is actually still quite good for them versus buying Dells or other kinds of devices.

[B]

If I buy an iPhone, that's like what, a grand? Like a thousand pounds? Something like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it's supposed to last seven years. That is how much money per year. God, why can't I do that maths in my head? That's appalling.

[C]

I mean by seven is hard.

[B]

It's £142 86p per year, 85.7p.

[D]

But imagine you're buying a Google Pixel 8. I don't know what they're up to. Nine, whatever they're on now. And your software support is five years and it's an 800 pound phone.

[B]

Oh no, for sure. I think my point is that we can be nice to Apple. There are things that they do well. But this is an industry wide problem and software support is an industry wide problem. It's a problem Microsoft has, but it is also a problem that Apple has. It is also a problem that Google has and it's certainly a problem that other phone and technology companies have pretty universally because long term software support, security support, support is good for the consumer but it isn't necessarily good for the company.

[D]

And it's expensive.

[B]

And it's expensive. And that's why we want to talk about things like the Cyber Resilience Act. We want to talk about things like regulation because expecting companies to give it to us to be nice is I think pretty optimistic.

[C]

This also goes to point Gus was saying around why do we need this extra innovation in oss? What are they giving us extra on top of it? Which means that the older devices are no longer compatible with the new operating systems. Because this is in some ways like the key as to why all this stuff around Windows 10 has become an issue. Because there are devices out there which can't be upgraded to the latest version.

[B]

Well, it's also like I do think it's a fair point from the companies to also say long term software support costs us money. Continuing to find an update for bugs that creates security issues in Windows 10 does cost Microsoft money and it does cost other companies money. That is a completely reasonable point. And if we were going hardcore like no regulation libertarian capitalism, then that would be the only point. But that's not where we are because there are market regulations and we are pushing for things like the Cyber Resilience act which should protect consumers more. But it is a trade off where we say, look, the thing is just as a social good, as a long term kind of environmental good, and to protect the privacy and security of your users, you are just going to have to spend the money.

[A]

So thank you for listening to all of us at PI. It was great to have a discussion with Chris and Tom. Remember, you can sign up to be the first to learn more about work like this at pvcy.org podsignup and we'll include some links to relevant articles, including our own writing in the Description wherever you're listening or on our [e-mail] techpill don't forget to rate and subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you use. Music is courtesy of Sepia. This podcast was produced by Max Burnell for Privacy International.

[C]

Meow

[B]

sam.