← TechTank
TechTank
The importance of investing in space infrastructure with Bridgit Mendler and Mariel Borowitz
00:26:29
Loading summary
Transcript26 lines
- [00:00]
A
You're listening to TechTank, a biweekly podcast from the Brookings Institution exploring the most consequential technology issues of our time. From racial bias and algorithms to the future of work, Tektank takes big ideas and makes them accessible.
- [00:25]
B
Thanks for joining our Brookings Tech Tank podcast podcast. I'm Darrell West, Senior Fellow of Governance Studies at the Brookings Institution. The space economy is accelerating at a rapid pace. There are advances in space tourism, mining, exploration, communications, and defense that are creating jobs and building the economy. The success of the recent Artemis II mission has raised hopes that the US soon can return humans to the moon for the first time in more than 50 years. But in order to expand space activities, the United States needs to invest in ground stations and space infrastructure. In order to help commercial firms take advantage of the growing opportunities space communications have taken off with thousands of new satellites being put into orbit each year. These vehicles require monitored launch facilities in order to put the rockets into space. And in the same way that America is upgrading its physical infrastructure in terms of roads, bridges, and dams, it needs to pay attention to the space infrastruct structure that is vital to the overall space economy. To discuss these important questions, we are pleased to be joined by two distinguished experts. Bridget Medler is the CEO and co founder of Norwood Space, a satellite data startup. She has a JD From Harvard Law School and also is an accomplished singer and actress who has performed in many films and television shows. Marielle Borowitz is an Associate professor in the Sam Nunn School of International affairs at the Georgia Institute of Technology and also is Director of the Georgia Tech center for Space Policy and International Relations. She has published a book and many articles on international space policy and open access to environmental satellite data. Bridget and Marielle, welcome to our Brookings Tech Tank podcast.
- [02:20]
C
Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Darryl.
- [02:22]
B
So I have a book on the space economy coming out in December entitled Claiming the Cosmos, and I show how space activities are expanding dramatically. Bridget, I know your firm focuses on satellite data and ground stations for satellites. Why do we need better ground stations for satellites?
- [02:43]
C
All the activity in the space industry, as you mentioned, is tremendously exciting and ultimately what it comes down are we able to actually access all of the promise and ambition for space, and what really enables that is the infrastructure layer as you described, Darrell. So without the ability to command spacecraft, actually direct where they go in space and how they maneuver, how they're even launched in the first place, without the ability to bring data back to Earth to serve all of the different Use cases that you described, important problems like bridging the digital divide and informing understanding of our climate and many other use cases. We need to actually receive that data and we need to be able to effectively send it up into space. So that link between Earth and space matters a lot and that's what we're focused on as a company.
- [03:36]
B
So I know the whole satellite area has really taken off. Bridget, what do you see as the benefits for consumers? You know, people always want to know about any aspect of technology, how it affects them. What is it that these space communication satellites are doing for regular people?
- [03:54]
C
Yeah, I think it was kind of a fantastic discovery for me when I first was introduced to the space industry and how plugged in the space industry is to so many different aspects of our lives. For instance, our GPS systems provide timing information that is used in hospitals for record keeping. It's used in our financial services. Every time you're using an atmosphere, it's relying upon timing information that is controlled through satellites. So there's a huge layer of infrastructure impact through the space economy writ large. I think what people have also seen a lot over the past few years is just how space can be integral in solving problems around the digital divide. And connectivity. Starlink has been a huge leader in that and being able to bring connectivity to parts of the world where there was previously not like the market incentive to make it possible. But space can kind of solve that. So connectivity, and one that I also like to speak to is just knowing our climate and having better data and understanding about our climate is one that has far reaching impacts. Whether it has to do with supply chain or, you know, any other global business, logistics is dramatically impacted by that. So, you know, there was a saying said by a government official that I thought was really a good one in space. You know, it used to be the icing on the cake and now it's the eggs and it's the eggs and the batter. Kind of a challenging one to say, but just in terms of summarizing its impact. But space really is involved in everything now.
- [05:39]
B
No, I think those are all terrific points and I also like to remind people how many innovations actually came from the space program. I mean, you mentioned GPS and of course now that is central in ride sharing services and navigational maps for drivers. There are so many other things related to mobile technologies. I noted in the most recent Artemis mission, they are using laser technology to send Internet signals from around the moon back to Earth at much higher speeds. So there are all sorts of ways in which the space program can benefit people. Mario, I'd like to bring you into the conversation. I know you've written extensively about satellite data and international cooperation in terms of Earth based observation. What do you see as the biggest challenges in these areas?
- [06:30]
D
Yeah, it's a great question. So first I'll say I completely agree with Bridget that the value from our space assets really comes from the data and the services that we get back down here on Earth and use in some way. And I think that's very much true for our Earth observation satellites. One of the things that we find is that with that data, once you get back down to Earth, the more you can combine it with other things and, and put these different types of information together, the more knowledge you can glean from it. And so one of the challenges we've had historically is we have many, many Earth observation satellites in space. There are some government environmental spacecraft, and there are also many commercial spacecraft. How do we set up the system that we can actually bring these different data sources together and do the types of analysis that really generate new information and new knowledge? So I think that's one of the challenges I've looked at historically is what are the different barriers to accessing this type of information.
- [07:34]
B
I think you're right. That kind of combining the information with other types of materials is very beneficial. So, Miro, could you give any examples of how combining information actually produces benefits and represents advantages for the space activities?
- [07:55]
D
Yeah, that's a great question. You know, there are so many different kind of applications of Earth observation data. I'm trying to think of a really a good specific one for you. You know, one that's a little bit general, but we see having a big impact is the use of Earth observation data for managing wildfires, for example. So, you know, you have these fires that can start in remote areas that are sometimes traveling quite quickly. And that's a place where you see different types of satellite data being really valuable. So you can have the imagery that you can look at, especially if you have a quick revisit rate where you can see how and where those fires are expanding. You also have satellites that are able to do thermal imaging. So sometimes there are things that you can't quite see in the kind of visual range yet, but you're going to be able to detect it with that thermal imaging. And so bringing those different sources of information together can allow you to have a much clearer understanding of what's happening and how it's evolving over time.
- [08:59]
B
Yeah, that wildfire example is a dramatic one. And of course we're seeing much greater risks these days from climate change and also human activities, wildlife, kind of using satellite imagery that seems to be a growth area and just kind of managing a wide range of climate change and environmental activities. So for each of you, is our current space infrastructure up to the challenge of the growing space economy? And Bridget, I can start with you on that.
- [09:30]
C
I mean, our company would say that it's not. And I guess, like, when it comes to the networking infrastructure that connects Earth and space specifically, you can think of space as having gone through a couple of different generations. Like, there was the era of space where communication between Earth and space was very simple, were just a handful of spacecraft and tended to be pretty static. So there's the orbit in space called geosynchronous orbit, where a satellite basically matches the orbit of Earth. And so it appears to be stationary over a certain location. So you can imagine from a networking perspective, that makes things really simple and straightforward where you can, you can have a single networking link on Earth connected to that satellite. And then moving into the future, when you have spacecraft that are in higher number, moving into low Earth orbits, orbits that require many satellites in order to cover the Earth, you just increase that volume dramatically in terms of the number of links that you need to accommodate. What we're even seeing now is really pushing the data volume demands through space. So trying to basically recreate the Internet in space and being able to move very significant volumes of data, but also move it in more dynamic ways. So you see spacecraft that will all of a sudden turn on or turn off in their need for operations. So you could go from a static asset that all of a sudden moves, maneuvers, expands, consumes more data, requires more data. And so that dynamic nature, as well as just the higher ceiling in terms of data throughput, in addition to the volume that I mentioned, increasing in space, in terms of number of spacecraft, makes it a totally different networking problem to solve. So for a bunch of these networking assets from the prior era, you know, the ground infrastructure that's around the world, you're facing a lot of different problems with how it was designed. It was just designed for something different, right? Like, it was not designed to accommodate higher throughputs. So, you know, all the infrastructure that has to do with sending more data on Earth as well as in space is just not existent. And also the networking infrastructure itself is not really designed for that kind of dynamic space. The volume of space, the scale of space. And so that all needs to be rethought. And that's really the project of what we're doing at our company is building the infrastructure that can support this new generation of space activities and also set us up for that innovation that's to come. And set up a business structure that can walk in tandem and sometimes introduce new developments and new ambitious concepts for space overall.
- [12:32]
B
Now that is an important point about, as you mentioned, recreating the Internet in space. A lot of what is coming out of space involves imaging data of various sorts. And of course that requires a lot of bandwidth and much higher data speeds than what we're used to on Earth. Mario also would like to get your perspective on this just in terms of whether you think our current space infrastructure is up to the challenge of the growing space economy.
- [13:01]
D
Yeah, I would say it seemed like it was for a while. And now the, the pace at which we are accelerating space activity is really requiring improvements in growth and infrastructure, I think in a lot of different ways. So communication is a great example. But launch has also come up recently as an area where, you know, we have multiple launch sites in the United States, we have multiple launch providers, and yet there have been a couple of reports recently that actually just projecting out even just the next couple of years, it looks like we're really going to be putting a strain on that infrastructure. So do we really have enough spaceports and enough launch vehicles to support, support the number of spacecraft that people are planning to put into orbit? So I think that's a challenge. Assuming we are able to meet that challenge and we can launch what we want to launch and get things into space, then we also run into the challenge of how do we operate all these things safely. And that's both a technical question in terms of improving our capabilities for space situational awareness, which are multiple governments and multiple companies working on that issue. But not just the technical challenge. Also have the international coordination and governance challenge. You know, even if we can track things closely, there's also a need to do that coordination among these different spacecraft operators to make sure, you know, everyone's kind of focusing on their own mission, focusing on their own operations. But we're at a situation now where already we see interactions among these spacecraft, the need to coordinate, coordinate. And that's really going to ramp up as we see more spacecraft go into space. So I think those are a couple areas where we have some near term needs for improvement.
- [14:49]
B
Yeah, I 100% agree on the launch issue that you raised. I mean, I think a lot of people don't realize like SpaceX alone is doing, I think, 100 launches per year now. So that's literally two a week. Other companies are ramping up. Unfortunately, Blue Origin had the X in it with their launch site, so that has temporarily taken that site off use. So that certainly is a big problem. Bridget, what do you see as the biggest barriers to additional progress in the satellite area?
- [15:26]
C
Yeah, I guess I'd also be interested to kind of build off of what Marielle just shared in terms of barriers and I think important problems for the space economy to solve. As we just heard, it's really important to have these spacecraft be able to operate safely and coordinate all of their activity, both in terms of the actual technicalities of maneuvering in orbit, thinking about safety, but also in data transmission, that kind of coordination and safe operations. And that's something for us as a company, that's one of the networking challenges that we are really excited to focus on. And the ability to support safer space traffic management and also the ability to support coordination of a number of different operators is part of our business model as well. We have a shared infrastructure model. So basically our concept is that the networking infrastructure on Earth that we provide for space companies is, is a shared resource that all different companies can take advantage of. And that naturally leads us to be involved in those discussions around coordination. And how do you make sure that the data transmission for all the spacecraft operators can be coordinated successfully? I personally am kind of curious to see how all of this unfolds from a policy perspective as well. I think there's interesting models from other, other forms of networking technology, whether it be on the cellular side or Wi fi or other examples. I feel like space is going to have its own unique answer to this. Obviously, I think there's a lot to learn from the prior examples, but I think, you know, there are ways in which previous generations of technology have solved this coordination problem, have solved the, you know, maneuvering problem, if you think about, you know, aircraft and things like that. So I think it'll be exciting to see how space answers those questions.
- [17:37]
B
So, Mario, you mentioned this issue of international coordination. And I'm just curious because, you know, right now we're seeing kind of a bifurcation of the world around space between kind of the US Led alliance, the Artemis Accords, and there are several, a dozen countries that have signed on to work with the United States on various things. And then Russia and China seem to be having their own set of countries working with them and their own set of activities. To what extent do you think geopolitical concerns are creating problems in terms of international coordination and international governance?
- [18:20]
D
Yeah, it's Absolutely a challenge. I mean, having a situation where, you know, the. The top three or four largest operators in space, whether you're talking about Earth orbit or also talking about lunar activity, are not countries that are naturally partners and working closely together. And so there isn't that existing trust built up to easily do that coordination and that information exchange. So I think absolutely, that that is a major challenge that geopolitics play into our efforts to just do this technical sort of coordination. At the same time, I will say there is some saving grace that. Particularly on the safety side, just trying to avoid sort of accidental collisions or unintended interactions, maybe in cis, lunar or lunar areas. There is a mutual interest there in not having accidents in orbit, for example, that will create debris that cause harm to everyone. It's still a big challenge in terms of how to have those conversations, how to build up some level of trust to be able to do that coordination. But I think there at least is that basic building block of shared interest and keeping both Earth orbit and other parts of space usable for further development. Because clearly there is a lot of interest among a wide variety of nations of making use of all these space assets.
- [19:50]
B
Yeah, you would think on the space debris problem in particular, there would be a very strong shared interest there. Because what a lot of people, I think, don't realize is a lot of the things that are out in space are traveling at more than 17,000 miles per hour. So even tiny little pieces that we would think would not be dangerous for satellites or other types of activities. If it's going 17,000 miles per hour, it's dangerous even if it's a relatively tiny piece. So that's a clear area where all the nations of the world should be cooperating to deal with that. Bridget, are there things that you think government should be doing to help in this area? Are there policies that need to be undertaken, investments that should be undertaken? What do you think government should be doing in this area?
- [20:40]
C
Yeah, absolutely. I think no surprise in the same way that the physical infrastructure itself is kind of reeling from the rapid acceleration of the space economy. Same with the policies and regulations surrounding space. So we just need to do a lot of updating and in scaling and accelerating our ability to safely and efficiently regulate spacecraft so that we can help build this economy. So I think the great thing is that, you know, globally, this is a topic that. That many governments are focused on, you know, creating those improvements. And so I think the more that the commercial industry can be a part of, you know, informing those conversations, the better that you can really have the result be. I think there's a huge amount of value to be brought in providing the right kind of scaffolding for this era that we're in now. A lot of it does look like, how do you scale things? How do you introduce streamlining and efficiency and just accelerated timelines to match the pace of the space economy that we're in now. So that's kind of like the regulatory bucket, I think, on maybe the government investment bucket. A lot of governments globally are also recognizing that having their own space capabilities is very valuable, both for their national interest as well as their economy more broadly. So I think the more that governments can invest in their own domestic space capabilities, and the more that the space infrastructure base is available to support them and enable their success, the better. So for us, providing this networking infrastructure on Earth is a real global enterprise. In order to connect with spacecraft, we need to have a global footprint. So today we're across two continents. By the end of this year, we're planning to be in eight countries and continue to expand from there. And so we want to offer across this global network a really efficient way for commercial and government spacecraft alike to be able to scale their operations in space quickly and be capable of doing so much more. You can think about going from having a single link on Earth to a spacecraft to having dozens or hundreds of links on Earth really changes what you're able to do from the spacecraft mission side. Think about your time contacting your spacecraft, going towards over an hour, to being in continuous contact, and what that can open up from a capability standpoint. So we're excited to support all those ambitious missions.
- [23:25]
B
So, Mario, same question for you. Are there things you think government should be doing? Policies, regulations, or investments?
- [23:34]
D
Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a lot that the government can do across all those different areas. I mean, certainly when you're talking about international coordination and diplomacy, that's a. A natural role for government and something where trying to create those ties and figure out how to begin working together, that's something where I think governments can lead. I think one of the really interesting aspects of the moment we're in right now with all of this growth is because it is coming so much from the commercial sector, There really isn't a need and opportunity now for industry to also be really involved. And Bridget mentioned this as well. You know, even in these kind of diplomatic processes, these international coordination efforts, having those, whether it's the spacecraft operators or other types of space companies really there informing the conversation about what are the biggest challenges that they see and what do we see from across different types of companies trying to achieve different things? What are the ideas they have about potential solutions? You know, I think having that really healthy government industry interaction is really a key element of a lot of the progress we need to make, whether it's an international coordination or in kind of new policy or even regulation to make sure that it's done in a productive way. That's avoiding these kind of accidental interference and other issues that we can all foresee and all have a mutual interest in avoiding, but in a very practical way and very well informed by, okay, what are the other ripple effects that this might have? And you know, in my opinion, the best way to get that information is to really have all those stakeholders in the room.
- [25:19]
B
No, I think that's a very important point. Just the whole public private partnerships. We all know commercial firms are playing a much larger role in all aspects of the space economy, but just making sure that there is adequate coordination of those activities. Well, this has been a terrific conversation. I really appreciate both of you taking the time. I want to thank Bridget Mendler and Mario Borowitz for sharing their thoughts with us today. At Brookings, we write regularly about space and various kinds of digital technologies. You can find more information on our Brookings Tech Tank blog, located at Brookings. Eduardo, thank you very much for tuning in.
- [26:03]
A
Thank you for listening to TechTank, a series of roundtable discussions and interviews with technology experts and policymakers. For more conversations like this, subscribe to the podcast and sign up to receive the Tech Tank newsletter for more research and analysis from the center for Technology Innovation at Brookings.
- [26:28]
D
Dink dink d.