A guide to being brave in relationships

Summary

TED Radio Hour: "A Guide to Being Brave in Relationships"

Podcast: TED Radio Hour (NPR)
Host: Manoush Zomorodi
Date: August 22, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores what it truly means to be brave in our relationships—with family, partners, friends, and even ourselves. Host Manoush Zomorodi and a panel of expert guests dive into the nature of emotional courage: how to listen without trying to fix, how to handle conflict productively, and how to combat loneliness through intentional friendship. The episode features powerful stories, research-backed guidance, and hands-on advice from writer Kelly Corrigan, renowned couples therapists John and Julie Gottman, and legendary sex therapist Dr. Ruth Westheimer.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bravery Is Letting Others "Untie Their Own Knots"

Guest: Kelly Corrigan (writer, host)

• Opening Story (00:40–04:22):

  • Corrigan recounts a pivotal lesson in parenting: when her daughter Georgia called upset, a therapist friend suggested she say, "Tell me more." By simply validating and listening—not solving—Corrigan saw her daughter open up and self-soothe.
  • Quote:

    "It's kind of humiliating when you bring a problem to someone and they solve it, lickety split... The underlying message is, what are you so upset about? ...versus the joy of untying the knots yourself."
    — Kelly Corrigan [03:35]

  • Lesson: Real courage in relationships often means resisting the urge to fix, giving people space to process and claim their own solutions.

• The "Seven Words" (05:12):

  • "Tell me more. Go on. What else?"
  • Corrigan maintains these seven words can take you far in life and relationships.

• On Being Present Despite Inconvenience (08:36):

  • Acknowledge the "inconvenience of vulnerability;" sometimes, bravery is setting aside your needs and ego in difficult moments for someone you love.

• What Brave People Don't Do (10:32):

  1. Don't take over and become the hero—sometimes braver to sit still.
  2. Don't leave or avoid—bravery is staying and bearing witness, even when it's hard.
  • Quote:

    "Personally, I thought love meant action. I had no idea it could be so still."
    — Kelly Corrigan [10:37]

---

2. Bravery in Family Goodbyes — Listening at Life’s Threshold

• Sitting With Her Dying Father (15:58–19:32):

  • Corrigan describes her father’s final days: by “mirroring his mood” and asking, “Tell me more,” he was able to unburden regrets safely, finding peace.

  • Quote:

    "It doesn't really matter what it looks like to my eye. Like, whatever's weighing on you is weighing on you. And it was like, I'm gonna hear you... and maybe that can let you rest. And it did."
    — Kelly Corrigan [18:40]

  • Bravery is Leaning Back and Letting Go:

    "The reward for bravery is a full human experience, complete with all the emotions at maximum dosage... the most eye-popping was interpersonal."
    — Kelly Corrigan [19:33]

---

3. Bravery in Romantic Partnership — Fighting and Staying Connected

Guests: John & Julie Gottman (relationship researchers)

• Fighting Is Normal (21:14):

  • "Yeah, fighting is normal... just by virtue of the fact that each of us has a different brain."
    — Julie Gottman [21:14]

• "Love Lab" and Studying Couples (21:39–23:53):

  • Pioneering research using physiological monitors to predict relationship success; identified conflict patterns and predictors of lasting love.
  • Quote:

    "We found, surprisingly, that we could predict with over 90% accuracy the future of a relationship."
    — John Gottman [23:37]

• The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (24:33–25:24):

  • Criticism ("Why are you such a slob?")
  • Contempt (superiority, sarcasm)
  • Defensiveness ("I did too pay the bills.")
  • Stonewalling (withdrawing, shutting down)
  • Physiological basis: "Flooding" (fight-or-flight) prevents productive conversation.
  • Actionable step: Take a break when "flooded" but set a return time to avoid perceived rejection. [26:09–26:54]

• Case Study: The In-Laws Argument (27:22–30:52):

  • Dissected an escalating couple fight about in-laws staying over.
  • Solutions: “Softened startup” (gentle approach), mutual curiosity about deeper feelings, and making space for vulnerability.
  • Quote:

    "Mutual understanding is really the goal of conflict."
    — John Gottman [30:46]

• Perpetual Fights & The Dream Within Conflict Exercise (31:14–33:27):

  • Most couples revisit the same unsolvable problems (69% are "perpetual"); conflict is managed, not solved.
  • Beneath disagreements are dreams, values; understanding these can lead to creative compromise.
  • Example: "Getting a dog" as a proxy for adventure versus family-building.

• Deal Breakers Are Real (36:15–38:04):

  • Some core differences mean there's no compromise: parenthood, geography, monogamy/polyamory, and growth needs.

  • But clarity on the "why" can bring peace even in ending.

  • Quote:

    "It's true that sometimes one person's dream is the other person's nightmare... but at least they know why they're breaking up."
    — John Gottman [36:16]

• Payoff: Deeper, More Lasting Love (38:18):

  • Happier, healthier, longer lives for you and the next generation if you "fight well."
  • Quote:

    "Once you've seen one person in their fullness, including the cracks, you tend to be more forgiving."
    — Julie Gottman [38:43]

---

4. Bravery in Friendship and Connection

Guests: Dr. Ruth Westheimer (renowned sex therapist), Allison Gilbert (journalist)

• Dr. Ruth: Pioneering Bravery in Sex and Friendship (40:04–47:02):

  • Dr. Ruth’s lifelong mission was to demystify sex and relationships, and in her 90s, she championed the fight against loneliness.
  • Quote:

    "The way you can talk about reading, writing, arithmetic. You can also talk about sex."
    — Dr. Ruth Westheimer [40:27]

• Loneliness Is Curable — But It’s On You (47:12–48:31):

  • Dr. Ruth’s tip: always end a visit by asking, "When will I see you again?"—book the next encounter.
  • Friendship is about effort, not just breadth but meaningful depth.

• Friendcabulary and “Feigning Needs”

  • Not everyone needs a BFF: acquaintances matter, too. Value all kinds of connections.

  • Proactive trick: Ask your neighbor for a cup of milk as an excuse to spark conversation.

  • Quote:

    "Engage in those little conversations... because that is what's going to progress a relationship."
    — Allison Gilbert [49:51]

• Final Wisdom: Take the First Step (50:42–51:38):

  • No excuses—Dr. Ruth believed your social life is in your own hands.
  • Quote:

    "Go where the people are, she would say. They're not on your couch."
    — Minouche Zomorodi [51:07]

  • "It's up to each person. You have to make the first step to make sure, sure that you are combating the loneliness."
    — Dr. Ruth Westheimer [51:27]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Parenting:

  "Don't you dare solve this for them. Don't grab that. That's greedy. Let her solve it. That's really the call here. And that's brave..."
  — Kelly Corrigan [03:40]

• On Life's End:

  "Whatever's weighing on you is weighing on you. ...I'm gonna mirror your seriousness about it and maybe that can let you rest."
  — Kelly Corrigan [18:20]

• On Conflict in Relationships:

  "Conflict really mostly needs to be managed rather than solved."
  — John Gottman [31:59]

• On Friendship:

  "When will I see you again?" [Dr. Ruth's magical question for deepening friendships]
  — Allison Gilbert [47:12]

• On Loneliness:

  "If you recognize it's a feeling, you can do something about it. Loneliness is, in fact, curable."
  — Allison Gilbert [44:30]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Parenting with Bravery and Listening: [00:40–07:58, 08:36–12:55]
• Bravery in Difficult Family Goodbyes: [15:58–19:32]
• The Gottmans on Relationships and Conflict: [21:14–35:45]
  • Four Horsemen: [24:33–25:24]
  • Sample Couple Fight: [27:22–30:52]
  • Perpetual Fights: [31:05–33:27]
  • Deal breakers: [36:15–38:04]
• Friendship, Loneliness, and Dr. Ruth: [40:04–52:04]
  • Dr. Ruth’s story and advice: [44:01–51:38]

---

Takeaways

• Real bravery in relationships is about presence, deep listening, and resisting the urge to fix.
• Productive conflict is essential and inevitable—manage, don't solve, and go beneath the surface.
• Lasting partnerships and profound friendships both require proactive, sometimes uncomfortable effort.
• Combatting loneliness (or deepening any relationship) is ultimately your responsibility; small acts matter.

---

For more:

• Kelly Corrigan, "Tell Me More" (book & TED talk)
• John & Julie Gottman, "Fight Right: How Successful Couples Turn Conflict into Connection" (book & TED talk)
• Dr. Ruth Westheimer, "The Joy of Connections" (book & TED talk)

Transcript

[Minouche Zamorodi]

This message comes from Raymond James, a firm focused on transforming lives, businesses and communities through tailored wealth management, banking and capital markets solutions. [e-mail] this is the TED Radio Hour. Each week, groundbreaking TED talks.

[Kelly Corrigan]

Our job now is to dream big.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Delivered at TED conferences to bring about.

[Allison Gilbert]

The future we want to see around.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

The world to understand who we are. From those talks, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you.

[John Gottman]

You just don't know what you're gonna find challenge you.

[NPR Sponsor/Announcer]

We truly have to ask ourselves, like, why is it noteworthy and even change you?

[Julie Gottman]

I literally feel like I'm a different person.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Yes. Do you feel that way? Ideas worth spreading from TED and npr. I'm Minouche Zumarodi. Writer Kelly Corrigan's daughters are grown now, but. But back when they were tweens, she noticed something. If they came home from school really mad or upset, and she tried to help them, they would just turn off.

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

Their emotion would change, and they would go from something raw to something kind of tired and dismissive. And then they would wander away. And I would think, what just happened? Like, they told me they were upset about X. We brainstormed solutions to X. And they seemed so unsatisfied with my parental interference.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

This really bothered Kelly until one day when she was on a road trip with her old college roommate, Tracy.

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

We were going back to some reunion and she was in graduate school to become a therapist.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

As they drove, Kelly's daughter Georgia called.

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

And she was very upset about something. And Tracy was sitting next to me. And I put the phone on speaker because I really wanted Tracy to hear the drama in Georgia's voice and also maybe to like Cyrano de Bergerac. Me like to just tell me what to say.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Georgia was crying. She hated sixth grade. All the girls in class were turning on her for no reason.

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

So Georgia said her things, and then Tracy said, tell me more. Say, tell me more. And then I'd say, oh, tell me more. And then Georgia would tell me more. And then Tracy would say, that sounds really hard. And then I'd say, oh, that sounds so hard.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

She'd say, it is.

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

And Georgia would, go on, go on, go on. And then Tracee would say, what do.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

You want to do about it?

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

And I'd say, so what do you want to do about it? And it was like acting. I was completely trusting Tracy's advice. And it was uncanny to me how effective it was. And what it taught me is that I think it's kind of humiliating when you bring a problem to someone and they solve it, like, lickety split. Because basically the underlying message of that is, what are you so upset about? Like, it's not that hard to figure this out. And that's a terrible feeling versus the joy of, like, untying the knots yourself. So I always picture someone picking through, like, a giant jewelry box full of necklaces and earrings and bracelets and brooches, and everything's all tangled up. And there is a tremendous satisfaction in separating all those items once and for all. And so either you're going to let the person have that satisfaction, or you're going to steal it. And once I heard myself phrase it that way, that it's stealing satisfaction that helped me stay on the right side of things. Like, don't you dare solve this for them. Don't grab that. That's greedy. Like, let her solve it. That's really the call here. And that's brave because you are putting aside your own methods and your own sort of delivery mechanisms that are most comfortable for you. You have to decide that their needs are paramount, that you are not trying to serve both needs at the same time, and you're definitely not trying to serve your own needs over theirs.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

We want to fix problems, win the argument, make friends with the tap of a screen. But what does it mean to truly be close to someone? And how can we have the courage to put ourselves and our fears aside? Today on the show, ideas about being brave in relationships, from dealing with family baggage to a scientifically proven way to stay married. And from one of the most famous relationship therapists of all, wisdom on how to make friends in what can feel like a lonely world. Kelly Corrigan believes that to be the most helpful to the most important people in your life, you. You just need to say a few phrases. Tell me more. Go on. What else?

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

Those are the seven words, and you can get pretty far in life just with those seven words.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

She spent years talking about families, her own and many others, on her PBS show, her podcast, and in her four bestselling books. And Kelly thinks that when it comes to a crisis, that is when we most need that quiet, soft kind of bravery.

[Kelly Corrigan]

Inside every crisis you think you might be ready for are a hundred dirty surprises that are not in the playbook.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Here she is on the TED stage.

[Kelly Corrigan]

I had stage three cancer in my 30s, and I can tell you that following the chemo schedule didn't take nearly as much courage as admitting to my husband that sex felt less sexy after my boobs, which were once a real strong suit for me, were made weird and uneven by a surgeon's knife. This bravery I'm talking about might even be better understood if you look at the smaller moments of injury in family life when there's not really an answer, or it might be your fault, or it might remind you of something you'd rather forget. Or because people are so suggestible and the wrong tone or expression or phrasing might somehow make things worse. Say your kid was dropped from a group text. They were in it, they mattered, they belonged. And then poof. Or your husband blew the big deal at work. Or your mom won't wear the diapers that would really help her get through mahjong on Wednesdays. And how should we calibrate the exquisite bravery to respond productively when someone in our family looks at us and says, do I know you? I weigh myself before and after every meal. I hear voices, I steal. I'm using again. I bought a gun. I stopped taking the medication. I can't stop making online bets. Sometimes I wonder if more life is really worth all this effort. Bravery is the great guts to move closer to the wound, as composed as a war nurse holding eye contact and saying, these seven Tell me more, what else go on. That's how the brave shine. That's all they do. They say, tell me more, what else go on. Even if they're scared of what might happen next, even if they have no training or experience to prepare them for this moment, even if it's late and they have an early flight.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

The theme through your books, through your talk, is about how important it is to be present, to listen in our family relationships, however you want to define family. But it is so hard to do when you are tired, when you're trying to get dinner on the table, when you feel like, oh my God, my kid is like complaining again, like, do you know how much it costs to send you to that camp? What advice do you have for being present in a, I guess a doable way?

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

I do think that it speaks to the inconvenience of vulnerability. Like anyone who has children knows that they often come in right as you're turning off your light to go to sleep and they want to tell you something, or you're pulling up to the airport or there's some imminent drop off coming. And I think that bravery requires a setting aside of self and a setting aside of ego, such that your whole being, everything you've got cognitively and emotionally, is available to the other person to lean on. If a person is in front of you, telling you, I want to say all these Horrible things. I want to tell you how awful I feel. Like, can you even hear it? Can you absorb that? And are you signaling that you can? Because another thing I've thought about a lot over the years is that the job is if you really love someone, the job is to make sure they know it. Which requires a little customization. You know, not every kid wants to be hugged repeatedly or sent cards in the mail. Like, the whole love languages thing is so valuable here. Which is, what would it look like if I were to custom design a feeling for you? What would the shape of it be? What would the sound of it be? Don't put too much pressure on yourself to say the right thing. I'm so thrilled by the idea of that kind of emotional hospitality where you're like, tell me something. I'm here. I'm listening. So few people love to listen. Most people, it seems, love to talk.

[Kelly Corrigan]

Here's two things the brave don't do. They don't take over and become the hero. In families, bravery is mostly just sitting there. Personally, I thought love meant action. I had no idea it could be so still. When things get hairy for one of my people, everything in me wants to grab a clipboard, make a to do list, and start calendaring appointments. And all that can accidentally put us center stage. No longer the coach or the minister, but rather one of the afflicted. But these gritty endurance types I've been admiring have no self and no needs and no agenda. Or at least they know how to override all that for the main character, who is not us. The second thing the brave don't do, leave or hide inside work or hobbies or some other socially acceptable busyness. In my worst moments, when sitting on my hands, it's just unbearable. I have dreamed of going to get an MFA in Paris, because if I.

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

Can'T help, why do I have to watch?

[Kelly Corrigan]

It would be nice to leave and start again. Hardly anyone who's been in a long marriage hasn't at least wondered how it is that the object of their desire has become so burpy and farty. Sometimes I see myself naked. Stretch marks from pregnancies, scars from cancer surgeries. Other things that I don't feel you need to be visualizing right about now. And I think it's a miracle that man stays with me. But you know, he's not untouched by time either. And that's just the physical. I mean, who here hasn't wanted to be with someone who hasn't seen us eating on the toilet or bitching at the Comcast guy, leaving behind our own humiliating history, maybe with the nice person we met at art school in Paris. It's an option. People take it. The brave hang around. They are available and ready to bear witness.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

In a moment, Kelly Corrigan explains how she applied this same philosophy to the final days of her father's life on the show today. Bravery in Rain Relationships. I'm Anoush Zamorodi and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from npr. Stay with us. This message comes from Cook Unity. Enjoy high quality culinary masterpieces for a fraction of restaurant takeout prices. Subscriptions start as low as $11ameal. Skip deliveries, pause or canc anytime. Get what you're craving. Try fresh, great tasting meal delivery made by your favorite celebrity chefs. Go to cookunity.com radio or enter code radio before checkout for free. Premium Meals for life terms and conditions apply. Go to cookunity.com for details. This message comes from Wayfair. As summer winds down, make your home ready for the season ahead. Refresh your workspace with desks, bookcases and office chairs for way Less. Or make weeknight dinners a thing again with quality cookware that makes mealtime a breeze. Get organized, refreshed and back to routine for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W a y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every Home Support.

[NPR Sponsor/Announcer]

For this podcast comes from PBS with Clearing the the War on smog in 1943, dark, smoky clouds suddenly descended over LA, causing residents to complain of burning eyes, nausea and difficulty breathing, and the cause remained a mystery. American Experience chronicles the struggle for clean air and the science and activism that would lead to the creation of the EPA and the Clean Air Act. Clearing the the War on Smog airs Tuesday, August 26th at 9, 8 Central on PBS. This message comes from REI Co Op A summit view, climbing El Cap, a faster mile, or that first 5k. It all starts here with gear, clothing, classes and advice to get you there so you can wave to your limits as you pass them by. Visit rei.com or your local REI Co op. Opt outside.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It's the TED Radio Hour from npr. I'm Minouche Zumarodi. On the show today, what it takes to be brave in relationships. We were just hearing from writer Kelly Corrigan on why sometimes the bravest thing you can do for the people you love is nothing at all. You ended up applying this same philosophy in one of the last conversations you had with your father can you tell.

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

Us that story, too?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Yeah.

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

So my dad was just days away from dying, and he was completely willing to have me sit in bed with him, to hold hands with him for hours. Like, he was telling me in the way that he was responding to my outreach that, like, this is it and we should.

[Kelly Corrigan]

Sorry, we should gobble up this time.

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

That we have together. And he felt more or less at peace.

[Kelly Corrigan]

He was 84 years old.

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

He'd had a spectacular time while he was here. But there was this day where he felt kind of agitated. And you could only see it if you were very quiet and very tuned, in which I consider to be an act of bravery to not rush around and be moving things around on his nightstand and telling him to go to sleep and bossing people around, but rather just sliding in next to them and mirroring their mood. And so I was looking at his forehead and it was all wrinkled up and tight, and he said, oh, lovey, I should have gone to see your Uncle Tommy more. So Uncle Tommy is my mother's brother. He died at 46 of a brain tumor. My dad loved this guy. And it had been a long time. It had been maybe 40 years since Tommy died, but right then and there, he had this discomfort with his failure to give more to Uncle Tommy. And instead of saying, oh, come on, you are an amazing brother in law to him, I said, tell me more. And he said, I. I should have named a kid after my lacrosse coach. And it was like, what? Why? Tell me more. And he said, he was so important to me. I went to college on a scholarship, and I almost blew it. I was partying too much. I didn't take it seriously. I was late to practice, and the guy took me by the shoulders and said, you got one more week on this team or I'm sending you home. And he shaped me right up. And it was like, what else? Like, is there more? And of course there was. And so we spent the day reviewing these little regrets that he had that were so, to my mind, so innocent. I mean, it was almost like the mood of him was that he was going to tell me he had cheated on my mother, or that he had an illegitimate child or that he had embezzled. But the fact of it was very small to me, to my eye. But of course, that goes to this larger point, which is it doesn't really matter what it looks like to my eye. Like, whatever's weighing on you is weighing on you. And it was like, I'm gonna hear you. I'm gonna absorb this thing with you. I'm gonna mirror your seriousness about it and maybe that can let you rest. And it did. And he leaned back on his pillow and said, I'm good, Levi. That's what a gift you could give.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Him by doing that?

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

Well, yes, I suppose, but also such a gift to me to get to give it, like it's so hard. It seems almost impossible really, to love someone effectively and productively and sufficiently in that moment. And he was offering me away and I took it. And I'll always have it.

[Kelly Corrigan]

The final act then, of the truly brave is leaning back and letting them go. The reward for all this bravery is a full human experience, complete with all the emotions at maximum dosage, where we have been put to great use and found an other centric love that is complete in its expression and its transmission. The reward is to end up soft and humble, empty and in awe, knowing that of all the magnificence we have beheld from cradle to grave, the most eye popping was interpersonal. So here's to anyone who notices and reads between the lines, who asks the right questions but not too many, who takes notes at the doctor's office and wipes butts young and old, who listens, holds and stays. We who untrained and always a little off guard, still dare to do love, to be love. That's brave.

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

Thank you.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

That was Kelly Corrigan. Her latest book is called Tell Me More. You can see her full [e-mail]. so that's being brave, showing up for your family, but what about your spouse or partner? How do we show courage one on one, especially when we're in disagreement?

[Julie Gottman]

Yeah, fighting is very normal. It's very natural, just by virtue of the fact that each of us has a different brain from the other person. We've been raised differently.

[John Gottman]

We actually need conflict because we're not attracted to people who are just like us. And we have to keep understanding our partner as we change and grow.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

John and Julie Gottman have been married for over 35 years, and they are very well known for being pioneers in the field of couples psychology, specifically researching why some couples stay together and others don't. It all goes back to 1986, when John and a colleague created a laboratory to study couples at the University of Washington. Julie joined them soon after. They called it the Love Lab.

[John Gottman]

We wanted to see whether we could predict the future of relationships.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Here's what they would do.

[Julie Gottman]

Couples would come into the lab, sit down, typically facing one another, and we would ask them to think about a problem that they hadn't solved yet that they wanted to talk about.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

The Gottmans interviewed couples over the course of weeks, months, even years. But there was something unique about their method. The conversations were recorded, and each person was hooked up to monitors to measure.

[John Gottman]

Heart rate, Blood velocity, Skin conductance, Sweating from the palms of the hands, Respiration, and variety of other signals. And they were synchronized to the video.

[Julie Gottman]

Time code, Analyzing what their facial expressions, their body movements, their words, and their tone of voice all conveyed.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

After collecting reams of data, the Gottmans started to see patterns. For example, if someone got upset and stopped responding in the conversation, Their heart.

[Julie Gottman]

Rates were typically over 100 beats a minute. They might be breathing very shallowly. They are basically having great difficulty hearing the other person, Interpreting what that other person is saying, and creatively problem solving.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Over the years, they would follow up with couples and track whether they stayed together.

[John Gottman]

And we found, surprisingly, that we could Predict with over 90% accuracy the future of a relationship.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

This work continues today, but with a boost from artificial intelligence.

[Julie Gottman]

Now, most of that is automated, which is somewhat miraculous. We are getting hundredth of a second by hundredth of a second what is happening to a couple.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

They've now studied thousands of pairs in conversation and codified their findings into various laws or rules for relationships. The most famous one is called the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Basically four reactions that, if they show up during a fight, may mean a couple's demise. Here are Julie and John Gottman on the TED stage.

[Julie Gottman]

The first one was criticism. Blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner, for example. Oh, my God, this place is such a mess. Why are you such a slob?

[John Gottman]

The second horseman is contempt. Contempt is like criticism, but it has a dash of superiority. You include scorn, disgust, sarcasm, and nasty insults.

[Julie Gottman]

The third horseman is defensiveness. That's the most common one. And that's when we act like an innocent victim. I did too pay the bills.

[John Gottman]

The fourth horseman is stonewalling. When we shut down completely, and we don't even give the speaker any signs that we're listening.

[Julie Gottman]

And what we discovered from the physiological research is that people who stonewall tended to be what we call flooded, which actually means in fight or flight.

[John Gottman]

So, you know, when you're flooded, you really feel like you're in danger of dying. You feel so threatened by your partner that you start to really secrete these stress hormones, cortisol and adrenaline. And it creates a kind of tunnel vision where they can't really listen, they can't really process information very well, and they Wind up repeating themselves, thinking if they repeat themselves louder and louder, they'll be more persuasive.

[Julie Gottman]

Soon as you recognize there's flooding in the room, you say, I think we need to take a break. And you say when you will come back to continue the conversation so that the other person doesn't feel rejected on the break. You distract yourself by reading, by listening to music, maybe watching TV so your body has a chance to calm down. And then you come back at the designated time you agreed to. And typically, people look like they've had a brain transplant when they sit down and talk again.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Okay, Your latest book is called Fight How Successful Couples Turn Conflict into Connection. And in it, you share examples from couples that you have studied. And I want to ask you about one argument in particular. This is a young couple discussing an upcoming visit from the in laws. We have actually created a reenactment of their conversation, and we can play this case study now.

[Allison Gilbert]

Oh, by the way, I told my parents they could stay in our room this weekend when they visit. We'll sleep on the couch.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

You already told them?

[Allison Gilbert]

Well, yeah, they're my parents.

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

I.

[Allison Gilbert]

You know, I don't sleep well on the couch. Come on, it's just for the weekend. What's the big deal?

[John Gottman]

I just.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I want to be at my best with your parents, and I don't want to be grumpy because I didn't get.

[Allison Gilbert]

Like, you're ever at your best with my parents anyway.

[NPR Sponsor/Announcer]

Wow.

[Julie Gottman]

Okay.

[Allison Gilbert]

Why are you making that face? You know, it's true.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I'm trying to make an effort with your parents and.

[Allison Gilbert]

Oh, yeah, why has it taken three years for you to do it?

[Kelly Corrigan]

Three years? Why is it three years?

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

You don't think that I've made an.

[Kelly Corrigan]

Effort for three years?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Okay, so in laws. It's a. I don't need to be a scientist to know that. It's a touchy subject for many couples. Tell me, what did you each hear in that conversation?

[Julie Gottman]

Well, I heard a lot of criticism and a lot of contempt from the woman. First of all, he was caught off guard by her announcement. He sort of expressed that, but really didn't talk about his feelings. She failed to listen to his feelings about it. What's the big deal? She's minimizing his feelings, invalidating his feelings. He's really hurt by that. He goes defensive, and there's no listening going on whatsoever.

[John Gottman]

Yeah, he was ready to withdraw. We also know that his heart rate goes up to 95 beats a minute very quickly.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Right. This was a real couple we're playing a reenactment. But you actually measured them in your lab.

[John Gottman]

That's right. Just by using the video, we could measure the heart rate of both people. And turns out that trust really falls dramatically in this interaction. Trust means each person is really not just interested in their own benefits, but also really working to ensure that their partner's benefits are maximized. Is your partner there for you? Do they have your back? And we can compute that moment by moment. So they very quickly become strangers and enemies.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

So how can they fix this?

[Julie Gottman]

So what she could have said instead is what we call a softened startup. Let's say the fellow's name is Dan. So, Dan, I'm feeling a little anxious about my parents coming for this weekend. I really want them to be comfortable. So how would you feel about our giving our bedroom to them while we sleep on the couch in the living room, just for the weekend? Okay, that would be an opening question that gives Dan some freedom of choice.

[John Gottman]

Yeah, but, you know, he could really impress. Improve the interaction as well. You know, if she says something like, you really haven't tried for three years, you know, he can say, gee, that's a really strong reaction to how I've treated your parents. I want to hear more about that and give me a chance to really understand what your feelings are. So both people can play a role in getting to mutual understanding. And mutual understanding is really the goal of conflict.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I've been married for nearly 20 years now, and the thing I hear from people is almost in a resigned way, like, oh, we had a fight. It's the same fight we always have. You call these perpetual fights?

[John Gottman]

Right.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Are we all doomed in a relationship to have the fight that we've been having since we first got together over and over and over again?

[Julie Gottman]

Yes. However, this leads to a different intervention. It's called the Dream Within Conflict exercise. We have a series of six questions that really draw out the subterranean levels of how somebody feels about a particular point of view.

[John Gottman]

You know, people are poised to fight one another because underneath their position, there are a lot of very important beliefs and hidden dreams. 69% of all relationship conflict problems are perpetual, which means that they never go away. And so we learn that conflict really mostly needs to be managed rather than solved.

[Julie Gottman]

Fighting to understand means taking a conversation about an issue and going much deeper to understand what's beneath your partner's position on the issue. That builds the connection. There was a woman who we will call Ginny, who was adamantly opposed to getting a dog. But her partner, Allison, was all for it. So they decided to try the Dreams Within Conflict conversation when Allison asked Jenny, so what is your ideal dream here regarding this issue?

[John Gottman]

You know, if we don't have a dog, we're not tied down, we're not burdened. We're free to travel the world together. That's what I really want. Now listen to what Allison said.

[Julie Gottman]

You know, I see getting a dog as a practice run for having kids and having a family. That's what I want.

[John Gottman]

Beneath the surface, it was about leading a life of adventure and travel versus staying home and raising a family. You generate such a level of understanding that then they can compromise. Let's find the solution that honors your dreams and my dream.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

But what if there is no solution? When we come back, Julie and John Gottman on Deal breakers, the issues that no amount of understanding can fix and that can spell the end for many couples. Today on the show bravery in Relationships. You're listening to the TED Radio Hour from npr. I'm Minouche Zumarodi and we'll be right back.

[NPR Sponsor/Announcer]

This message comes from Schwab. Everyone has moments when they could have done better. Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education and human help when you need it.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort. Journey through the heart of Europe on an elegant Viking longship with thoughtful service, destination focused dining and cultural enrichment on board and onshore. And every Viking voyage is all inclusive with no children and no casinos.

[NPR Sponsor/Announcer]

Discover [e-mail] this message comes from NPR sponsor US Bank. With US Bank Business Essentials, you get more than just a bank. You get a dedicated partner that provides you a powerful combo of checking and card payment processing with quick access to the money you've earned, proving that there is nothing as powerful as the power of us. Visit usbank.com today to learn more. Member FDIC Copyright 2025 US bank this.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

[NPR Sponsor/Announcer]

This message comes from REI Co Op a summit view, climbing El Cap, a faster mile or that first 5k. It all starts here with gear, clothing, classes and advice to get you there so you can wave to your limits as you pass them by. Visit rei.com or your local REI Co op. Opt outside.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It's The TED Radio Hour from npr. I'm Minouche Zamorodi. On the show today, bravery in relationships. And we were just hearing from renowned couple psychologists John and Julie Gottman about how to fight, right, to use conflict to strengthen a relationship. But let's say people follow the Gottman's methods and come to the conclusion that they want different things in life. What then?

[John Gottman]

It's true that sometimes one person's dream is the other person's nightmare and they cannot reach a compromise, but at least they know why they're breaking up. A good example is one person really doesn't want to be a parent, and the other person really needs to be a parent. You know, that's a common reason why people. Why many people break up.

[Julie Gottman]

Another one that I've seen is geography. And this is interesting, you know, especially in our dating on the Internet world. I treated a couple where they had met at a conference, and then they had several rendezvous together. After that, he lived in Uganda, she lived in Switzerland. And where were they going to live? They loved each other, but they couldn't make their future come true.

[John Gottman]

Another is polyamory versus monogamy. That's a more common one these days.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Mm. Are you seeing that working for people? It seems like the jury's out on that, at least here in the United States.

[John Gottman]

Yeah. There is no research on it, unfortunately. So, you know, we really don't know empirically what makes polyamory work. Another deal breaker, Minouche, that's really emerged quite recently in the last couple of decades is when a relationship really doesn't fulfill the growth needs, either career or emotional or spiritual growth needs of one person. And that's one reason sociologists have been saying that it leads to the end of a relationship.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I want to just make sure, I ask you, you know, what is the payoff of fighting? Right. If we are brave enough to get in there and do the work, what do you see on the other side?

[John Gottman]

So the payoff is that we can have a lifelong love. And research has shown that when you can do that, you actually live an average of 15 to 17 years longer. You're healthier and your kids turn out better, and their relationships when they grow up, turn out better as well.

[Julie Gottman]

What I've seen in doing couple therapy for 30 years now is a different kind of love. It's much more profound. It's deeper. It much more recognizes the humanity of the other partner as well as your own humanity. And once you've seen one person in their fullness, including the cracks, you tend to be more forgiving. I think of other people and look at this world, Minouche. This world is split and fractured and we desperately need a little bit more love and peace in the world, world. This is one way to start creating that.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

That was Julie and John Gottman. They are co founders of the Gottman Institute and their latest book is called Fight Right How Successful Couples Turn Conflict into Connection. You can see their full [e-mail] on the show today. Bravery in relationships, which has to include friendship. But before we get into jest, friends, a warning that this episode includes some frank talk about sex. Good evening.

[Dr. Ruth Westheimer]

This is Dr. Old Westheimer right here on 97 Wyny FM radio.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

So maybe you remember the iconic sex therapist Dr. Ruth.

[Dr. Ruth Westheimer]

Yes, you are in the air. Yeah.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

She rose to fame in the 1980s because she was one of the first people to openly talk about sex on the radio and on television.

[Dr. Ruth Westheimer]

The way you can talk about reading, writing, arithmetic. You can also talk about sex.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

She became a lively, warm and non judgmental voice for generations of Americans, including journalist Allison Gilbert.

[Allison Gilbert]

I was one of those listeners.

[Dr. Ruth Westheimer]

Yes, you are on the air.

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

Hi, Dr. Westheimer. I know you're always concerned about birth control.

[Dr. Ruth Westheimer]

Yes, I am.

[Allison Gilbert]

I was a teenager with raging hormones who found myself with a closed bedroom door, lights out, radio really so low that I was surprised I could actually hear what she had to say.

[Dr. Ruth Westheimer]

You know what I would do? What? Find yourself somebody else.

[Julie Gottman]

Oh, well, I love Charlie and he loves me too.

[Allison Gilbert]

Because the callers, it was a call in radio show were asking her what I thought then were really naughty questions.

[Dr. Ruth Westheimer]

Just give her as many orgasms as she would like. Try that.

[Kelly Corrigan]

Okay.

[Allison Gilbert]

That my mom was not prepared to talk with me about.

[Julie Gottman]

In a way, I do want to go to bed with him. I'm afraid that if I do, it's wrong for me to do this right.

[Dr. Ruth Westheimer]

I tell you, sometimes when I hear a 16 year old ask me that question, I would like to say, what's the rush?

[Allison Gilbert]

And so I was a fan before I was ever a collaborator. And so to say that I was in awe when I finally got to meet her at 95. She had been in my world, so to speak, since I was a kid.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

As an adult, Alison was thrilled when she was assigned by the New York Times to write an article about Dr. Ruth's new role.

[Allison Gilbert]

Dr. Ruth was on a mission to be appointed New York State's first ambassador to loneliness.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

She had been reading and observing what the US Surgeon General has called an epidemic of loneliness and isolation and she was determined to be part of solving this health crisis by teaching people how to have the courage to form friendships.

[Allison Gilbert]

She knew she can help. She had something to say. And the article that I was assigned was to report on this mission. And then as soon as the article published, it's like both of our guards went down. And before I really realized what was happening, she was enveloping me in what I have come to understand is like her web of love and friendship that seems, now that I look back, ever growing. And I just found myself fortunate to be in that space. And what I found was that warmth you heard through the radio.

[Dr. Ruth Westheimer]

Tracey, I think that you should find yourself a new man. Okay?

[Allison Gilbert]

That magic that captivated TV watchers when she went on television.

[John Gottman]

But you have changed sex for America.

[Dr. Ruth Westheimer]

Don't you tell me that it's less good now.

[John Gottman]

No, it's better now.

[Kelly Corrigan (continued personal story)]

Everyone knows it.

[John Gottman]

Now it's time.

[Allison Gilbert]

Was still present in her apartment, in her living room, despite her being, when I met her, mostly confined to a wheelchair. Do you feel that you are a good friend to others?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

This is a recording of Alison and Dr. Ruth in the last few months of her life before she died at the age of 96 in 2024.

[Dr. Ruth Westheimer]

Not only do I think that I'm a good friend, I was superb friend. I'm like the best friend that anybody could have.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Alison became Dr. Ruth's collaborator on her final book, the Joy of Connections.

[Dr. Ruth Westheimer]

Since my late husband died, I wanted to write about loneliness. So now I am very happy to write this book.

[Allison Gilbert]

Loneliness is a feeling that you want a deeper connection with people, and you feel like you're not getting what you most desire. But if you recognize it's a feeling, you can do something about it. That loneliness is, in fact, curable. But you can be your own doctor, you can do it, and you can follow her lessons. And you're not alone.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

A lot of this I didn't realize stems back to her own personal story.

[Allison Gilbert]

It was a rough childhood from 10 years old forward. During the Holocaust, her mother and grandmother put her on a train, part of the Kindertransport to remove German Jewish children to safety. Her father had already been taken by the Nazis, and this was their attempt to save Ruth's life.

[Dr. Ruth Westheimer]

You can't control what life is going to throw your way.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Here's Dr. Ruth Westheimer on the TED stage.

[Dr. Ruth Westheimer]

In 2015, at the age of ten and a half. When the Nazis came to power, I was sent to Switzerland to a children's home, hoping that my parents could get out of Germany and pick me up. The children's home became an orphanage, and I have learned some lessons from that particular time to take control of my life and make the best of it. Nobody is going to pick up your worries. They will still be there the next day. But in meantime, you can enjoy the relationship. If you are lonely, my advice is don't just sit there and say, I don't have any. Do something.

[Allison Gilbert]

She felt she had what she needed to move forward after the worst happened. And that just made her want to seek and establish a chosen family throughout her entire life that was made up of friends. She kept collecting friends bit by bit, like gems. It's a masterclass, really, of losing your entire family and yet pushing forward and rebuilding.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

What are the main things that she thinks cures loneliness? Give us, like, the top tips.

[Allison Gilbert]

I will tell you a story that I think is so illustrative of her secret sauce. She would end nearly every conversation when I was packing up to go, and she would ask me the same question. When will I see you again? And that was my cue to take her paper calendar and to assign my name to a date and a specific time. And it's a magical question. When will I see you again? It communicates so much that she wanted to see me again, which made me, of course, feel special, that there was a burgeoning friendship. But it also showcases her real interest in being proactive about her life, that she was not gonna leave to chance what she wanted.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Okay, so you have to make an effort. Sounds kind of obvious, but necessary.

[Allison Gilbert]

I don't think it's obvious at all. I think we all spread ourselves so thin. And that breath, Dr. Ruth would say, is at odds oftentimes with depth. And so opt for meaningful busyness. Not just busyness.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Love that. But she also says that you need to broaden your friendcabulary.

[Allison Gilbert]

I love that. Right. Because she was. She didn't want to give people the wrong idea that, oh, my gosh, I need a best friend, I need a bff. If I don't have that one person, I'm doomed. You can have an acquaintance. You can have someone who perhaps you see infrequently, but what you do together is an experience that you feel broadens and deepens. I loved visiting her in her apartment building in New York City, because when we would go outside, she would know everybody. They would engage her in conversation, but she would not let them go either. These were just incredible brief conversations. Because even if we engage with strangers, just a simple hello, it helps us develop a sense of connection in community with other people.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

She was also kind of tricky. Like, there's another tip where she says Feign needs, like, ask the neighbor for a cup of milk instead of going out to buy it just so that you can, like, have an excuse to talk to them.

[Allison Gilbert]

How can you not love Dr. Ruth? Sure, you may have a carton of eggs in the fridge, but if you're making a cake and you feel like you want to have an excuse to maybe have a conversation with someone next door, so what? Ask them for an egg. I mean, who is that gonna hurt? Engage in those little conversations with neighbors because that is what's going to progress a relationship.

[Kelly Corrigan]

Hmm.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It seems to me that what all of these tips and ideas and suggestions have in common is it's on you to make the first move, to start up the conversation, to interrupt a group and insert yourself in some way. And you might be rejected. Maybe. But that's okay. It's gonna be hard.

[Allison Gilbert]

She had no patience for complaining. Let's just call it like it is. She would not have any of that. It is up to you, the individual, to do something with your life. You are given this opportunity. Go for it. No one is gonna come in and push you out the door to make friends. You have to decide that it's so important to you to feel better, to be enriched by relationships, that you experience the tailwind of needing to turn off Netflix and get out the door. Go where the people are, she would say. They're not on your couch.

[Dr. Ruth Westheimer]

It's up to each person. You have to make the first step to make sure, sure that you are combating the loneliness.

[Allison Gilbert]

What are you doing or not doing that's put you in a place where you feel lonely. And she's going to show you, step by little step how to move forward so you can feel that you belong because you are deserving of relationships that make you feel seen.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

That was journalist Allison Gilbert. We are dedicating this entire episode to the memory of Dr. Ruth Westheimer, whose TED Talk you can watch at ted.npr.org her new book, co written with Allison Gilbert and Pierre Lehue, is called the joy of 100 ways to beat Loneliness and Learn. Live a Happier and More Meaningful life. Thank you so much for listening to our episode about bravery in relationships. It was produced by Rachel Faulkner White, Harsha Nahada and Katie Monteleone. It was edited by Sanaz Meshkinpour and me. Our production staff at NPR also includes James Delahusy, Fiona Guerin and Matthew Cloutier. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. A special thank you to Bumika Jain, Yash Bhutada, Mitra Arthur and Ajani Daniel for voice acting. Our audio engineers were Tiffany Vera Castro, Becky Brown, and Patrick Murray. Our theme music was written by Ramtin Arablouei. Our partners at TED are Chris Anderson, Roxanne hi, Lash, Alejandra, Sales Balazar, and Daniela Balarazzo. I'm Anoush Zamorodi, and you've been listening to the TED Radio Hour from npr.

[NPR Sponsor/Announcer]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand's style. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling [e-mail] NPR this.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Message comes from Warby Parker. What makes a great pair of glasses at Warby Parker? It's all the invisible extras without the extra cost, like free adjustments for life. Find your [e-mail] or visit one of their hundreds of stores around the country. This message comes from NPR sponsor Viori featuring the performance jogger. Visit viori.com NPR for 20% off your first purchase on any US orders over $75 and free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions.