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- [00:00]
Minouche Zamorodi
This message comes from Discover. Accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. If you don't think so, maybe it's time to face facts. You're stuck in the past. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. More@discover.com Credit Card this message comes from Insperity, providing HR services and technology from payroll benefits and HR compliance to talent development. Learn more at Insperity.com HRMatters this is the TED Radio Hour. Each week, groundbreaking TED Talks.
- [00:35]
Shonda Rhimes
Our job now is to dream big.
- [00:37]
Minouche Zamorodi
Delivered at TED conferences to bring about.
- [00:39]
Pico Iyer
The future we want to see around.
- [00:41]
Shonda Rhimes
The world to understand who we are.
- [00:43]
Minouche Zamorodi
From those talks, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you. You just don't know what you're gonna find challenge you. We truly have to ask ourselves, like why is it noteworthy and even change you?
- [00:55]
Sarah Edmondson
I literally feel like I'm a different person. Yes.
- [00:58]
Minouche Zamorodi
Do you feel that way? Ideas worth spreading From TED and npr. I'm Minouche Zamorodi. Today on the show Great Escapes.
- [01:11]
Lehua Kamalu
Many years ago, our family home in the hills of California burnt to the ground. I lost everything in the world. After the fire, I bought a toothbrush from an all night supermarket and that was the only thing I had.
- [01:25]
Minouche Zamorodi
This is best selling author Pico iyer. Back in 1990, he was a young writer when this fire took all of his possessions, including all the ideas he'd been compiling for new projects.
- [01:40]
Lehua Kamalu
I'd lost my next three books which were in handwritten notes, so I was sort of back to zero.
- [01:47]
Minouche Zamorodi
For months. He camped out at a friend's house, sleeping on their floor, unsure what to do next.
- [01:53]
Lehua Kamalu
And another friend who is a schoolteacher came in, saw me there and said, come on Pico, you can do better than this. And he told me how every spring he took his students up to this quiet retreat house four hours to the north. So I thought, well, if nothing else, I would have a bed to sleep in there and a wide desk and a private, wide walled garden looking over the Pacific Ocean. All the food I could eat, all in those days for $30 a night. So compared with sleeping on a friend's floor, it looked like a very attractive proposition.
- [02:25]
Minouche Zamorodi
Pico got into his car and drove north for several hours up the coast to Big Sur and this monastery which sits high on a hilltop surrounded by acres of forest on one side and and looking out over the Pacific Ocean on the other.
- [02:43]
Lehua Kamalu
And I do remember very vividly the minute I got out of my car in this monastery, the silence was pulsing. It wasn't just an absence of noise. It was a kind of active presence, maybe of everything I sleepwalk past in my regular life. And I walked into this small but comfortable room looking out on the Pacific, and instantly I felt I had come home. This was the place I'd been looking for all my life, I felt. And so, in an odd way, I had been well prepared for the monastery by being stripped of everything and even stripped of the way I defined myself. If you think about losing everything in a forest fire, it sounds so terrifying. But in my case, for all the terrible losses, slowly all kinds of doors opened and made possible things that might never have happened otherwise. It was like being given a fresh start and a chance to make my life up again from scratch with this tabula rasa. And really to craft a life much closer to the life I'd always wanted to lead. A much simpler life, much less cluttered. And so, in certain ways, the fire actually saved me from myself and gave me the opportunity to start again.
- [04:09]
Minouche Zamorodi
How do people find the courage to leave the world they know and make their way to a completely different reality? On today's show, ideas about escape and renewal. Stories about getting away from the modern world in search of peace of mind. Now, Pico Iyer is an acclaimed author who writes about his travels all over the world, from Japan to India, Iran to North Korea. And throughout the past 30 years, he has found himself returning to that same hermitage over and over again.
- [04:48]
Lehua Kamalu
Yes, more than 100 times. Over 34 years, I've driven for hours up from my mother's house to a Catholic hermitage, which is a surprise even to me because I'm not a Christian. But I have found that's really become my secret home over these many years. And the monks leave everybody free because they're confident that just in undistracted silence, you will find what you need most. Whether you call it God or reality or your better self, you will find it.
- [05:24]
Minouche Zamorodi
In Pico's latest book, Aflame, he describes how his relationship with that undistracted silence has changed and morphed. How he's embraced it sometimes and wrestled with it at others.
- [05:39]
Lehua Kamalu
Yes, so when I first went there, I thought, this is heaven. Who wouldn't want to be alone for $30 a night with a beautiful view of the Pacific Ocean and Big Sur and not a care in the world? And. And then soon after, I began staying, suddenly a winter storm arrived, and the rain patted on my roof all night long, and the aged heat groaned in the winter cold. And the very foundations of the little trailer in which I was sitting seemed to be shaking. And I looked out, and I couldn't see a single sign of human habitation. I was alone, it seemed, in 900 acres of remote wilderness. Absolute mist, and it was terrifying. It felt like 40 days and nights in the wilderness. And then the next morning, of course, the sun rose and everything was beautiful again. But it was a very tonic reminder. Thomas Merton, the monk, says that if you seek out contemplation in search of anything, you're sure not to find it. There are no guarantees, and a monk knows much better than I do, as there's a nun, that half the days are stormy and overcast, and however bright the daytime is, night will fall in time. And, of course, when you're by yourself, all of us know dark things come out of yourself. You have to confront your shadow side as well as your affirmation.
- [07:03]
Minouche Zamorodi
I noticed that in the beginning of the book. There's, of course, the extraordinary view of the Pacific Ocean that looms and the way that every storm just seems to almost sort of take over when you're in your little, I guess, little cottage, sheltering from the elements, and that when the sun does finally come out, it has a way of filling you up that just feels mystical. But as the book goes on, you quickly also get a lot of, I guess, comfort or creative solace from the rituals that are going on around you, from the monks and the way that they go about their day.
- [07:47]
Lehua Kamalu
Yes, initially, it was the nature that so moved and transported me, and in time, it became the people. So it is their rituals and the fact that they're maintaining a very rigorous and steady daily practice. They gather in the chapel five times a day, and they derive great freedom from knowing that at any hour of the day, they know exactly what they have to do and where they have to be. So to us on the outside, it looks like a very confining thing, but they find liberation from the fact that they're freed from out. And having traveled so much for 51 years around the globe, I've always felt that when I think of escape, it's not so important where you're escaping to, but what you're escaping from. And famously, if. If an angry person goes to Tibet, he starts complaining about the altitude. In other words, he's gone to a beautiful place, but he hasn't escaped himself. And so the special beauty of this place is that I do feel my lesser, fretful self has been left behind. And suddenly I can access some much deeper, quieter place inside me, and also some much Wider reality. I wake up to the world. I think it's almost as if blind has come off. And suddenly I'm not locked inside my thoughts, but I'm wide awake to the light on the ocean and the rabbit on my splintered fence. And the bells tolling behind me down the road.
- [09:24]
Minouche Zamorodi
There's a line I underlined where you say, I'm glad to be away from the self I am when other people are around. And I think anyone living in our on display world. Can really identify this idea of almost being sick of yourself. You know, here's what I'm doing, here's why I'm winning, here's why I'm so busy and it's exhausting.
- [09:54]
Lehua Kamalu
Exactly. I'm so happy you picked up on that line. Because that's probably the central line in the entire book. So it's not just the noise in the world I'm trying to get away from, but it's the chatter in my head. An escape from my social self, an escape from my chit chat, from my anxious thoughts, from my idle meditations, from my busy plans. An escape from all the static in my head. And the small miracle of being there to this day, 34 years later, is whenever I step into that room or even get out of my car. It feels as if little Pico and all his worries and ambitions and hopes are left down on the highway two miles below the hermitage. And I'm suddenly released to the world. It's as if I'm freed from my thoughts, which are usually the least interesting part of life. And liberated to this great, radiant beauty all around me.
- [10:54]
Minouche Zamorodi
There are some people who might say what you're talking about is religion. That you can have this sacred space every week, depending on which religion you go to, there is a temple, a church for you. But we know that people are turning to religion less and less these days. I wonder how you see it on a daily basis. Whether there is a way to find this comfort without having to leave your life, which many people can't do.
- [11:30]
Lehua Kamalu
Exactly. Because so many people don't have the time or resources to go on retreat, let alone to go on retreat regularly as I do. But as you say, the beauty of silence is that to some degree, it's available to everyone wherever you are, and to some degree at any time. And I tell my friends, take a long hike every Sunday. Go and visit a friend without your cell phone. So that instantly you're in, I think, a much more intimate and undistracted place. Or maybe best of all, just sit quietly, without your devices for 20 minutes every morning, setting a tone for the day. And that would represent probably only 3% of most people's waking hours, but it would completely transform the other 97%. And of course, I know many people have small children or a job that requires them to check in very, very early as soon as they wake up. But whoever you are, I think we can make space for those things in our daily life. And as you say, that's how we would encounter God or reality or some truth that otherwise eludes us far too much. I do feel that it's a universal medicine. Each of us may describe it differently and we'll find it in different ways, but it's something more and more essential as our world gets more and more fractured. And every now and then I'll hear myself say, I don't have time to go on retreat. And if I hear myself say that, that means that's the time I really need it because it's akin to my saying, I don't have time to take my medicine.
- [13:11]
Minouche Zamorodi
That was author Pico Iyer. His latest book is Learning From Silence. You can see his Many TED Talks ted.com on the show today, escape and Renewal. I'm Minouche Zamorodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from npr. We'll be right back. It's the TED Radio Hour from npr. I'm Minouche Zumarodi. On the show today, great escapes. So now we want to talk about when the search for peace of mind goes horribly wrong. And before we start, a warning. This story includes descriptions of physical and emotional abuse and mentions of sexual assault.
- [14:06]
Sarah Edmondson
I've always been a pretty outgoing person. I was very social. I loved summer camp. I loved groups. I loved being a part of things.
- [14:14]
Minouche Zamorodi
This is Sarah Edmondson.
- [14:16]
Sarah Edmondson
In 2005, I was kind of a stereotypical aspiring actress, also waitress. I think I was very optimistic. Always a little bit of a, you know, a go getter, hustler.
- [14:30]
Minouche Zamorodi
She was in her mid-20s, living in Vancouver.
- [14:33]
Sarah Edmondson
I had work. I technically was a working actress, but I felt like the things that I was doing weren't particularly meaningful. It was beer commercials and vampire TV shows. That's sort of like that's a paycheck. And it didn't fill the void of, like, wanting to do something more impactful. So, you know, I was idealistic. I was raised by, you know, ex hippie parents who took me on peace rallies and really instilled in me that, you know, that you can leave the world a Better place. And I just thought that I would do something I guess more impactful than what I was doing at the time.
- [15:04]
Minouche Zamorodi
I mean, I think you sound like a lot of 20 something people, right?
- [15:08]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah, 100%. I, I, I have a lot of grace for myself now, but like 26, 27, it's like the end of childhood, the beginning of adulthood, a lot of responsibilities, trying to figure out who you are.
- [15:20]
Minouche Zamorodi
So Sarah was intrigued when a friend told her about a personal and professional development program run by a company called Nexium. Her friend said the methodology had helped him work through his problems and hang ups, but far faster than years of talk therapy.
- [15:37]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah, the way that he had pitched it to me was that it was a group of humanitarians that were changing the world and really starting with evolving ourselves. And he told me that it had really helped him overcome some phobias and fears. And I had enough self awareness to know that I wasn't perfect and that I had things that I needed to work on. And so I thought this would be a great time to look at that stuff and work on, on my stuff.
- [16:08]
Minouche Zamorodi
With the hopes that this could get her out of her rut, Sarah decided to give the program a try and signed up for a five day introductory course. On the first day, she learned that the methods had been developed by a man named Keith Ranieri, who the coaches referred to as Vanguard.
- [16:26]
Sarah Edmondson
All the coaches and facilitators were talking about how Vanguard had created this curriculum. And he was, he's one of the smartest men in the world. He's mega Mensa, IQ of 240. He was supposed to be like a mathematician and a physics major and a science major and triple major from RPI with all these accolades and he could put it towards anything, but he was choosing to put it towards helping people.
- [16:50]
Minouche Zamorodi
The instructors also promised she would understand herself and her values in new ways. Not that it would be easy.
- [16:57]
Sarah Edmondson
They started saying things like, you know, we're here to grow and when you're working on yourself, you're going to feel uncomfortable. And if you, if you feel the urge to bolt, to leave or to eat or to smoke or to flirt, like those are things that are going to cover up the feelings that we want to dig in on. And you paid a lot of money, so why don't you stick it through?
- [17:17]
Minouche Zamorodi
Participants were also asked to wear sashes to indicate their rank as students.
- [17:22]
Sarah Edmondson
And if you felt uncomfortable with it, then the facilitator would say something like, it's totally normal, you know, if you to Feel uncomfortable. A lot of people who have authority issues or who don't like being measured, which was me, like I quit swim class because I didn't like all the testing and the, you know, getting to the next level, red, gold, silver or whatever it was back in the swim class days. And so like, okay, it must be my authority issues. Right? This is no different than going to a dojo. And this is the karate system. This is our karate system.
- [17:52]
Minouche Zamorodi
Right, Right.
- [17:53]
Sarah Edmondson
And definitely by the end of that five day I was like, I was in, I was, I felt so great. And I did think it was better than any other therapy or seminar. Other things that I'd done that were similar. And I really did feel like if we could reach people who have the power, then we could actually change the world because we'd be compassionate to each other and we wouldn't hurt each other over petty things. I mean that's a, a beautiful idea. I think, I still think that's a good idea. A personal and professional development program with a seemingly altruistic mission to change the world one person at a time.
- [18:28]
Minouche Zamorodi
Sarah Edmondson picks up her story from the TED stage.
- [18:32]
Sarah Edmondson
I truly found an incredible community of like minded humanitarians and a place where I could help people set and achieve goals and bust through their limiting beliefs. It was wonderful. I thought that I'd found the best club ever. My people, the chosen family. But more importantly, a place where I had community and belonging. Those were things I was looking for ever since I was a little girl. I rose up the ranks, became one of the company's star recruiters. It was incredible.
- [19:05]
Minouche Zamorodi
You ended up staying part of this community. In fact, you became a key member of the community. 12 years. Tell me about how you think of the halcyon days of nxivm.
- [19:18]
Sarah Edmondson
The beginning and middle were, you know, the heyday and it was, it was really fun. We had our goals labs, which is basically working through a particular goal in three month sections. So people would do things like write a script or run a marathon or lose 20 pounds or whatever it was. And we, we take people through that.
- [19:38]
Minouche Zamorodi
I mean it just sounds like life coaching. Yes.
- [19:41]
Sarah Edmondson
Basically I was a, I was an untrained life coach and probably a pretty good life coach because I loved working with people, I loved helping people. I was very much in my element and we were getting better at asking for what we wanted and our self esteem was being raised, we were making more money. It was all the things that a lot of these things out there promise on the outset.
- [20:07]
Minouche Zamorodi
At this point, thousands of People had gone through NXIVM's personal growth courses all over North America. The company's main headquarters in Albany, where Keith Ranieri lived with a group of trusted advisors, was churning out new curricula. Sarah, meanwhile, had fallen in love with a fellow coach. They'd gotten married, had a child, and. And her center in Vancouver was thriving. So where's the problem? Tell us about when things started to go wrong.
- [20:37]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah, I mean, there were so many red flags along the way that I just missed. But long and short of it is that I was invited to a women's group that was supposed to be a secret women's group of women who were going to take the tools and really commit. And I never would have signed up for it if I'd known what it was.
- [20:59]
Minouche Zamorodi
The year was 2017, just as the MeToo movement was taking off. And the invitation was from Lauren Salzman, Sarah's best friend, her son's godmother, and the head of education at nxivm. Sarah would need to go through a kind of hazing process and make a vow of obedience to join.
- [21:18]
Sarah Edmondson
It's sort of like what I saw with fraternities and sororities when someone's making a pledge and they're like, you know, going around and being your. Fetching the remote for the person is sort of like, this is an exercise we're doing. And part of it was I was supposed to get a tattoo in a very special sacred ceremony with my quote, unquote sisters.
- [21:37]
Minouche Zamorodi
Sarah flew to Albany for this special, secret ceremony. And after a decade in a group abiding by these special rules and strict codes of conduct, she was willing to pretty much go along with whatever was required of her, including getting not a tattoo, but a brand on her body.
- [21:56]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah, it ended up being a brand. And it wasn't actually even the brand that made me realize it was bad. It was realizing that the brand was Keith's initials and a monogram, and that had been kept from me. That information had been kept from me.
- [22:10]
Minouche Zamorodi
Back in Vancouver, she got a call from a friend who was also high up in the organization. He had decided to leave naxivm.
- [22:18]
Sarah Edmondson
He had heard rumblings of these things. Basically, what had been happening over the 12 years that I'd been there is that Keith was very good at keeping people siloed, so nobody really knew what everybody else was dealing with or going on, what they were struggling with. And he had heard about that Keith had started a secret group for women and that sex was part of the assignments. I'd been given assignments. I had not been given that assignment yet. So I knew that the women's group was true. I'd been branded. And he was now telling me about the sex part of it.
- [22:54]
Minouche Zamorodi
Do you remember that moment, I guess of realization that the life you had was not what you thought it was and that you needed to go?
- [23:05]
Sarah Edmondson
I will never forget the moment. I remember exactly where I was standing in my bedroom in Vancouver. And it was like my world got flipped upside down because I saw Keith Renieri is not the most noble humanitarian in the world. He is a cult leader and he's a sociopath. And then it's like all the other things that I'd seen made sense.
- [23:26]
Minouche Zamorodi
And this is where the story might start to sound familiar.
- [23:30]
Sarah Edmondson
The leader of an alleged sex cult.
- [23:31]
Minouche Zamorodi
Has been arrested in Mexico. The FBI says that Keith Ranieri tricked women, brainwashed them, and then forced them into sexual relationships. Long story short, Keith Ranieri had been running a cult and this new women's group was his latest way to control the female acolytes who surrounded him.
- [23:49]
Sarah Edmondson
And you know, I've since learned that the women's group that I had joined was a heightened version of how basically Keith was running his ship with his harem all the time. And I, I couldn't totally see everything fully at the time, but we started to piece together that this was sex trafficking. That's why he had this group of women. They weren't his assistants in helping him figure out the plans for world peace. It was, they were at his beck and call because they were in his harem. And basically all of that information together helped both of us see pretty much what we ended up going to the FBI with, which is that he'd created a, a blackmail MLM scheme for sex.
- [24:34]
Minouche Zamorodi
A self described self improvement guru is now sentenced to 120 years in prison. As many of us heard all over the news after Keith Ranieri was captured by authorities in Mexico, the details of how he manipulated people to believe in him and follow his every instruction came out on the witness stand in a New York court courtroom. Fifteen former NEXIA members delivered angry, emotional and powerful victim impact statements before the sentencing.
- [25:02]
Sarah Edmondson
Keith planted the seeds for this to be okay and be normalized. And I mean I, I did have many thoughts in my head that that kind of are left over Nexium questions like, you know, what if I'm wrong? What if the branding is the thing that's supposed to help people, you know, overcome their biggest challenges? And I just, but it was like a fleeting thought I was able to really like, sort of get almost like a picture, like a rubber band. I just snapped back to my former self. I was like, nope, there's no place in a personal and professional development program to get branded as part of your commitment to your growth. That's not me. This is me and I'm leaving.
- [25:41]
Minouche Zamorodi
How did you do that, though? Because your entire adult self had been crafted by them the previous 12 years. What do you think made it possible for you to go, to revert that quickly? Whereas there were some people closer to Keith Ranieri who really. That took a long time for them.
- [25:59]
Sarah Edmondson
It took a long time. Well, some of them are even still there, by the way. Yep. They're still probably about 15 to 20. We call them the Loyalists. Still dedicated. But I think that happened because even though I was very dedicated and I did make NXIVM over time, you know, my whole, my whole life in many ways. And stopped acting, I think, because I still had a foot in reality. Like, I never moved to Albany. I never joined the harem. I never engaged with Keith in that way. So I was not fully hooked emotionally. And I, I think because of that, I had a place to go. Like, I think a lot of the people who, who joined and burnt all their bridges didn't have anywhere else to go. I had my family who, who were thrilled I was stopping nxivm and they were like, great, welcome back. And that's the thing that's so insidious about these groups is that with coercive control or undue influence, it happens slowly over time. And the more committed you are, the more you invest, the easier it is to ride the cognitive dissonance wave. Culture everywhere. And they don't look like what you think anymore. We're not talking about shaved heads and drinking goat's blood in some Stanley Kubrick horror movie. Eyes Wide Shuttle masks and robes. No. Cults thrive by disguising themselves as something wonderful that appeals to your total normal humanity. Your desire for connection, meaning and purpose. It might look like a hot yoga class. A course on leadership and communication, an incredible business opportunity to sell a life changing product from the comfort of your own home. Financial freedom. Boss. Babe, I'm not condemning any one of these things, trust me. I just want you to see the precursors. I want you to be able to tell the difference between a healthy human thing and something with a malignant endgame.
- [27:54]
Minouche Zamorodi
It's been a few years now, five, six years since Keith Ranieri went to prison and your book came out and some documentaries and you now talk a lot in your podcast and on the TED stage about that line. That line between community and feeling part of something and believing in something versus that line where it turns into something controlling and debilitating.
- [28:23]
Sarah Edmondson
Yeah, there always has to be good things on the outside. It's what's happening in the inner circle or at the core level that usually that's where the rotten toxicity is and never starts that way. People join. I've said this a million times. Nobody joins a cult. They join something good. That's why it's so important to know the signs and red flags of cultic abuse, especially in this day and age. We've all had to become hip in regards to Internet safety, catfishing and hacking. How about we learn some cult literacy? So I'm going to teach you a couple red flags. And remember, not any one of these things in and of itself is the problem. It's the whole package. The first thing is there's an assumption of your neediness. You're a broken bird, you're unwhole, and they have all the tools to make you whole again. That's very convenient. Secondly, it's expensive. And please know that it might cost you more than money. It could cost you in time and relationships. Also loaded language. If they're using pretentious terms to sound holier and smarter, run. And finally, if they're claiming to have the definitive answers to life's mysteries, big red flag. Ultimately, the best advice I have for you to avoid a culty nightmare is just remember that all of these programs and communities and tools and answers and all this stuff is just a tool, not an answer. Nobody has all the answers. I think people also have to know that any group can become culty and it doesn't even have to even become a cult. It become cultee. And that's. That's just as problematic. Is this thing that you are into, is it healthy for you? Can you leave the group? If you leave the group, are you. Are people still going to communicate with you or are they going to shun you? That's a real tell.
- [30:20]
Minouche Zamorodi
There's this great exchange in the book where your husband says, you know, now we can live a normal life. We can just go for hikes, we can take our kid to the park. We can be a family. That's all I want. It sounds like it was relatively easy for you, but I think for a lot of people there's a hole that gets left. Who are they? If they're not doing this activity, if they're not expressing what these beliefs. How do you see people coming out on the other side and rebuilding a life?
- [30:51]
Sarah Edmondson
It's really hard and requires tremendous amount of work, which is hard because so many people get out of a cult or a group like this and they a lack resources and then also being embarrassed because people are normally so ashamed that they've been duped or conned that they just want to run for the hills and never address it. And you know, when you look at even the MeToo movement or why people join cults, it's not like, oh, you're vulnerable, you're weak. It's like, no, we all have vulnerabilities. It's like situational susceptibility. So maybe you're moving to a new town and you don't know anybody or you're after a divorce and you're feeling particularly low and looking for comfort. And it's very normal. It's very human because people tend to say weak. I don't think it's weak, but vulnerable is a normal human thing.
- [31:40]
Minouche Zamorodi
That was Sarah Edmondson. She's the host of the podcast A Little Bit Culty. Her book is called the True Story of How I Escaped nxivm, the Cult that Bound My Life. You can see her full talk@ted.com on the show today. Great Escapes. I'm Anoush Zumarodi and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from npr. We'll be right back. It's the TED Radio Hour from npr. I'm Anoush Zumarodi. On the show today, Great escapes and searching for renewal. Our next guest is a wayfinder. She escapes the modern world by going back to the old methods of traditional Hawaiian voyaging canoes. On these trips, if it's a clear night, she'll often find herself gazing at the sky where it meets the Pacific.
- [32:47]
Shonda Rhimes
So I'll probably be awake around 2am trying to see the changes in the color of the sky. I'm trying to get a good idea of what we're going to see as the sun starts to come up.
- [33:00]
Minouche Zamorodi
This is Lehua Kamalu. She is a third generation captain and navigator.
- [33:06]
Shonda Rhimes
The stars are all very incredibly important and useful in keeping a very accurate course line. But I'm about to go into the daytime and so I really want to see what this day is going to look like and I want to see the moment that sun comes out of the water. And so, so as a navigator, I'm going to be awake for that sunrise and I'm going to see sort of all the changes as the night turns into day.
- [33:32]
Minouche Zamorodi
Lehua has captained voyages all over the Pacific, from Hawaii to San Francisco and Tahiti. She and her crew follow strict rules. They don't use GPS or compasses or any modern navigational tools.
- [33:48]
Shonda Rhimes
When we talk about navigating these canoes, some people call it celestial navigation. I try not to only because I think that really only acknowledges what's in the heavens and what's in the sky. And you'll find that a critical element of navigating by nature is looking down to what's in the ocean and understanding the wave patterns and understanding the wind that's right in front of you that you can feel physically on your skin and, you know, blowing your hair. And I'm just asking myself so many questions about what's going on around me, not just on where the things in the sky are, but which way are the waves coming from? And let me try and understand, okay, what does that mean? Does that mean we're still on course? Do I need to make an adjustment towards the wind or away from.
- [34:36]
Minouche Zamorodi
Wasn't until the 1970s, when the Polynesian Voyaging Sea Society was founded, that sailors started using these traditional methods again. Hundreds of years ago, this was how Lehua's ancestors crossed the ocean.
- [34:52]
Shonda Rhimes
Hawaii is traced back through the migration route to Tahiti in French Polynesia. It's over 2,000 miles to the south. And the idea that we are so deeply connected to a place so physically far away to the point where we can understand each other in the languages we speak is pretty astonishing. And so we start to learn this, I would say, as early as, you know, 6, 7, 8 years old, we get to go visit the canoe itself. And this canoe is called Hokulea that I'm referencing. And it was the first to be built in centuries here in Hawaii. And it was launched in 1975 as something that demonstrated both the ability and the genius to construct a vessel that could save, sail the ocean and the very high seas, as well as the skill of the people who would have been sailing these canoes 500, 1000 years ago to actually intentionally find their way across those 2,000 miles.
- [35:53]
Minouche Zamorodi
Can you describe what Hokulea looks like? I mean, we keep using the word canoe, but if you see a picture of it, this is not like, you know, little fiberglass canoe that we put in the canal near where I live.
- [36:07]
Shonda Rhimes
Absolutely. What we have are, you know, basically the ancestor of the modern catamaran. When you see these canoes, so they're very large. Hokule itself is 62ft long and it's about 21ft wide. And it is a double masted canoe. And so it has a forward and an aft mast and it is, it is sail powered.
- [36:30]
Minouche Zamorodi
How many people can fit on it?
- [36:31]
Shonda Rhimes
Usually a long voyage will have about 10 to 12 people. I'd say comfortably as comfortable as it gets. When you're on a, on a deck, on a platform out in the middle of the ocean, in the, in the sun, in the rain, it is very exposed living for what can be up to, you know, four weeks, usually at the longest, between islands, between landfalls.
- [36:56]
Minouche Zamorodi
How scary does it get out there? Like, do the waves get really big or do you get blown off course?
- [37:03]
Shonda Rhimes
Absolutely. And so as a captain or a navigator, you really need to be sensitive to what your canoe can handle, what is too much, what is too rough, when do we need to make adjustments and by really understanding every piece and part of it, you know, what's going on, you know, also how to fix it when it breaks out there. So we have a lot of safety gear that we take with us. These days, everyone is wearing life jackets in the event that you do end up in the water. This is a very real concern for us on these canoes that have very low decks to the water and very little that keeps you connected to the canoe itself. And everyone is effectively in a state of, I might be in the ocean in the next wave. So you're absolutely holding on for dear life so that you stay connected to the community canoe, but you also are staying focused on sailing it.
- [37:53]
Minouche Zamorodi
Are you wet the whole time? Pretty much.
- [37:55]
Shonda Rhimes
You can be. Creature comforts are usually secondary to the function of the vessel. And you really have to be ready to be uncomfortable the entire time. Uncomfortable is your new normal. And I actually really think that is not a bad thing about, about sailing. I think forcing you to be in the temperature of the wind that's out there to feel the actual temperature of the ocean. We don't have running water out there. You know, everything is done with buckets through the ocean. You shower with the ocean. We wash the canoe with the ocean water. The first few days, arguably even a week out on the ocean are not what I would call pleasant. It is a very, I think, physically challenging experience. And for me, it feels like the time that my crew are actually the qu. Quietest because we're each going through the steps of why did I do this? Why did I choose to come out here? And I would say certainly by, by day five, six, seven maybe, everyone's really embraced this as you know, this is actually just a different way of going day by day and it's not what I'm used to, but it's definitely putting me in a very different, I would say spiritual and psychological space. And you just start thinking differently and we sort of say, you know, you're now in this zone, you're in the ocean space now and you can't get away from it. There's no bunk downstairs where you're gonna hide away. You're on deck, you're out in the elements and there's not much that's going to remove you from that until we get to our destination.
- [39:31]
Minouche Zamorodi
I mean, having escaped the sort of day to day of your life and you're out there relying on your senses, can you just describe what that feels like?
- [39:43]
Shonda Rhimes
Yes. I do not think I am the same person on the ocean that I am on land at all. And what happens when you step on board and you say, okay, here's what we're doing, we're navigating. We're going to be completely looking at nature. We are completely in it. At no point while we sail from one island to the next am I worried about what I think was worried about the day before we left. It is almost like a switch and escape is a good word for it. I like to think it's a re immersion. It's actually a return. It's a return to something we have maybe not intended to escape from, but because of the way that we, we all live on this planet and the way that, you know, the course of humans have evolved our daily lives, we are very protected and sometimes removed from a space that I think gives us incredible peace and incredible introspection and reverence. And everything that you do is up to you out there. You know, there's no one here to dictate how you need to respond to, you know, the winds or the squall that's coming in. I consider it an escape because I think it takes you away from what we may see as the only way to live our lives and the only way to think about how we're traveling on this, this beautiful planet and allows you a space and a time, even if it's just for a few days or a few weeks, to see yourself in a different light, to see yourself in a different environment where your focus is so completely removed from the daily grind. If you, you will.
- [41:31]
Minouche Zamorodi
That's Hokulea captain and navigator Lehua Kamalu. You can learn more about her journeys@ted.com to close our episode about escape and renewal. We want to share one of my favorite TED talks ever. It's from Shonda Rhimes, the creator of TV shows like Grey's Anatomy, Scandal, and How to Get Away With Murder. Shonda loves to work, but about a decade ago, she developed a classic case of burnout. So she went on a quest to get back her mojo, or what she calls her hum. She named her plan A Year of Yes. Here's Shonda rhimes on the TED stage in 2016.
- [42:19]
Pico Iyer
I love working. It is creative and mechanical and exhausting and exhilarating and hilarious and disturbing and clinical and maternal and cruel and judicious. And what makes it all so good is the hum. There is some kind of shift inside me when the work gets good. A hum begins in my brain, and it grows and it grows. And that hum sounds like the open road and I could drive it forever. The hum is more than writing. The hum is action and activity. The hum is a drug. The hum is music. The hum is light and air. The hum is God's whisper right in my ear. And when you have a hum like that, you can't help but strive for greatness at any cost. That's called the hum. Or maybe it's called being a workaholic. Maybe it's called genius. But here's the the more successful I become, the more shows, the more episodes, the more barriers broke, the more work there is to do. And then the hum stopped. Overworked, overused, overdone, burned out. The hum stopped. Now my three daughters are used to the truth that their mother is a single working Titan. Harper tells people, my mom won't be there, but you can text my nanny. And Emerson says, honey, I'm wanting to go to Shondaland. They're children of a titan. They're baby titans. They were 12, 3, and 1. When the hum stopped, the hum of the engine died. I stopped loving work. I couldn't restart the engine. The hum would not come back. My hum was broken. Now I know somebody's out there thinking, cry me a river, stupid rider, Titan lady. But you know, no, you do. If you make, if you work, if you love what you do, being a teacher, being a banker, being a mother, being a painter, being Bill Gates, if you simply love another person, if that gives you the hum, if you have been to the hum, when the hum stops, who are you? What are you? And then my southern waitress toddler asks me a question. I'm on my way out the door, I'm late. And she says, mama, want to play? And I'm just about to say no when I realize two things. One, I'm supposed to say yes to everything. And two, my Southern waitress didn't call me honey. She's not calling everyone honey anymore. When did that happen? I'm missing it, being a titan and mourning my hum. And here she is, changing right before my eyes. And so she says, mama, want to play? And I say yes. There's nothing special about it. We play, and we're joined by her sisters. And there's a lot of laughing. And I give a dramatic reading from the book. Everybody poops. Nothing out of the ordinary. And yet it is extraordinary. Because in my pain and my panic, in the homelessness of my homelessness, I have nothing to do but pay attention. I focus. I am still the nation. I'm building the marathon. I'm running, the troops, the canvas. The high note does not exist. All that exists are sticky fingers and gooey kisses and tiny voices and crayons. And that song about letting go of whatever it is that frozen girl needs to let go of. It's all peace and simplicity. The air is so rare in this place for me that I can barely breathe. I can barely believe I'm breathing. Play is the opposite of work, and I am happy. And a rush of energy comes. And it's not instantaneous, but it happens. It does happen. I feel it. A hum creeps back. Not at full volume, barely there. It's quiet, and I have to stay very still to hear it. But it is there. Not the hum, but a hum. And now I feel like I know a very magical secret. It's just love. We could all use a little more love. A lot more love. Anytime my child asks me to play, I will say yes. I make it a firm rule for one reason. To give myself permission to free. Free me from all of my workaholic guilt. It's a law. So I don't have a choice. And I don't have a choice. Not if I want to feel the hum. I wish it were that easy. But I'm not good at playing. I don't like it. I'm not interested in doing it the way I am interested in doing work. I like working more than I like being at home. Facing that fact is incredibly difficult to handle. What kind of person likes working more than being at home? I mean, let's be honest. I call myself a titan. I've got issues. And one of those issues isn't that I am too relaxed. We run around the yard, up and back and up and back. We have 30 second dance parties. We sing show tunes, we play with balls. I blow bubbles and they pop them and I feel stiff and delirious and confused most of the time. I itch for my cell phone always. But it is okay. My tiny humans show me how to live and the hum of the universe fills me up. The other hum, the real humor, life's hum. The more I feel that hum, the more this strange, quivering, uncooned, awkward, brand new, alive, non titan feels like me. The more I feel that hum, the more I know who I am. I'm a writer. I make stuff up. I imagine that part of the job that's living the dream. That's the dream of the job. Because a dream job should be a little bit dreamy. I said yes to less work and more play. Titans need not apply. Want to play? Thank you.
- [48:36]
Minouche Zamorodi
That was Shonda Rhimes. Her book is called Year of Yes. How to Dance it out. Stand in the sun and be your own person. You can watch her full talk@ted.com thank you so much for listening to this the show. If you are thinking about supporting public radio, I think today is the day when you become a TED Radio Hour plus listener. You support this show and you can hear the latest plus episode. It is my conversation about how to avoid small talk with the hilarious and extremely emotionally intelligent comedian Chris Duffy. There was a little hiccup with plus episodes recently, but this one is one all new and Chris is awesome. Just go to plus.NPR.org Ted and thank you so much to anyone who already is a plus subscriber. This episode was produced by Rachel Faulkner White, Katie Monteleone, Harsha Nehada, and Matthew Cloutier. It was edited by Sanaz Meshkinpour and me. Our production staff at NPR also includes James de La Hussy and Fiona Guerin. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Our audio engineers were Jimmy Keeley, Neal Rauch, Gilly Moon, and Zoe Vangenhoven. Our theme music was written by Ramtin Arablouei. Our partners at TED are Chris Anderson, Roxanne Hylash, Alejandra Salazar, and Daniela Balarezzo. I'm Minouche Zamorodi and you have been listening to the TED Radio Hour from npr. This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim. Visit schwab.com to learn more. This message comes from NPR sponsor Informatica Everybody's ready for AI to help them with the next big breakthrough. Accept your data. Get your data AI ready@informatica.com AI e informatica where data and AI come to life. This message comes from NPR sponsor Fixable, a podcast from ted. Hear unfiltered advice that will help you solve your work issues fast. Everything from helping your team manage changes to figuring out what to do about your office crush. Find Fixable. Wherever you listen.