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- [00:00]
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Minouche Zomarodi
This is the TED Radio Hour. Each week, groundbreaking TED talks.
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NPR Promo Announcer
Our job now is to dream big.
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Minouche Zomarodi
Delivered at TED conferences to bring about
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Alex Carter
the future we want to see around
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Narrator/Additional Speaker
the world who we are.
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Minouche Zomarodi
From those talks, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you. You just don't know what you're gonna find challenge you.
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NPR Promo Announcer
We truly have to ask ourselves, like, why is it noteworthy and even change you.
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Alex Carter
I literally feel like I'm a different person.
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Minouche Zomarodi
Yes.
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Magdalena Hoeller
Do you feel that way?
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Minouche Zomarodi
Ideas worth spreading from TED and npr. I'm Anoosh Zomarodi. On the show today, the skills we need to resolve our conflicts.
- [01:04]
Alex Carter
You know, when you think of a honeymoon, you think relaxation, you think scenery.
- [01:09]
Minouche Zomarodi
This is Alex Carter. She's a professor at Columbia Law School. Twenty years ago, she was a newlywed and fresh out of law school herself.
- [01:20]
Alex Carter
You know, I married another lawyer. We're both litigators. We were looking to get away from the grind. So we booked a trip to Hawaii and we found ourselves in Kauai on this beautiful kayak tour of the Wailua River.
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Minouche Zomarodi
Sounds lovely.
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Alex Carter
Minouche, have you ever been in a kayak with another person?
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Minouche Zomarodi
No, I've only done the single kind.
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Alex Carter
In theory, the larger of the two people is in the back and that's the person who's supposed to drive, quote unquote, right. And you drive by paddling the kayak left and right in a particular way. Well, we're in the kayak. I'm now legally bound to this person. And halfway through the tour, I'm kind of dissatisfied with the way he's paddling the kayak.
- [02:05]
Minouche Zomarodi
Her new husband, who was relentless in the courtroom, was content to be a little more relaxed while kayaking.
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Alex Carter
We were at the back of the pack getting passed by people who were chain smoking cigarettes. And we seemed kind of rudderless. I'm not sure where we're headed, so I decide I've got some better ideas.
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Minouche Zomarodi
So. So Alex took matters into her own
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Alex Carter
hands, literally, and say, I'm going to start driving this thing.
- [02:32]
Minouche Zomarodi
At that exact moment.
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Alex Carter
We capsize. We capsize a total of three times. And the third time, in fact, I'm swept down river and have to crawl back to our starting position and get back in the kayak. So I'm now back in this Kayak dripping wet. And our guide up ahead, this surfer guide, turns back and says, all right, folks, let's negotiate these things to the left. Cause we're gonna hit that beach up ahead. And in that moment, I actually forgot that I was mad at my husband. I was struck because I'd never heard anybody use the word negotiate that way before.
- [03:17]
Minouche Zomarodi
This was when Alex realized she had not failed at kayaking. She'd failed to negotiate with her partner.
- [03:25]
Alex Carter
I came out of that honeymoon realizing I had learned totally the wrong idea about negotiation. I was, first of all, a lawyer who'd been primed to think that negotiating meant competing full stop. So you're out to win, and maybe even more than that, you're out for somebody else to lose.
- [03:47]
Minouche Zomarodi
And that's the point in trying to force the outcome she wanted. And Alex flipped the kayak, and she said that many of us make a similar mistake when we try to negotiate. Whether it's for a new contract, a new salary.
- [04:02]
Alex Carter
People assume you have to go in and you have to compromise something. Accept less than you thought you were worth. Or maybe you have to compromise something worse, like your values. Either way, people associate it with money, but really they associate it with loss. And that's part of the reason why we just don't like to do it that often. And when we do, we default to being really competitive because we think that's the only way we're getting out alive.
- [04:35]
Minouche Zomarodi
And what is it that we should be thinking about? Because you've spent ever since that kayak trip, what, 20 years now, thinking about better ways to go about negotiation. And also, you use the word mediation a lot because you are actually a mediator.
- [04:52]
Alex Carter
Yes. So about 20 years ago, I made a move from being a full time litigator, somebody who was helping people through the adversarial system in court, to a mediator who helps people try to negotiate their way out of really challenging situations. And the first thing I want people to know is negotiation is just steering.
- [05:16]
Magdalena Hoeller
Mm.
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Alex Carter
It's about steering the relationships in your life, building those relationships. So when you get to the place where you do need to negotiate something difficult, you're in a much better place to have successful outcomes.
- [05:32]
Minouche Zomarodi
May I just ask, did that mean that you stopped tipping over in the kayak with your new husband?
- [05:37]
Alex Carter
We did not tip over again. Is this the place where I should mention that we're gonna celebrate 20 years in June?
- [05:44]
Minouche Zomarodi
Oh, that's so nice. Yes.
- [05:46]
Alex Carter
Thank you. So successful. We just don't kayak together.
- [05:50]
Minouche Zomarodi
Negotiations are part of life, but too Often they end up in confrontation, a stalemate or just total avoidance. So this hour, better negotiating, two TED speakers who can help us navigate conflict with more clarity and less fear. Later, we'll hear about negotiating in romantic relationships. But for now, back to Alex Carter. Today she and her students at Columbia Law are the people that get called when a negotiation is not going well.
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Alex Carter
A mediator is never anybody's plan A for a negotiation. We get called in when people are already in court. Relationships have frayed, maybe even businesses are on the rocks and people are trying to salvage what they can out of the mess.
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Minouche Zomarodi
I'm picturing a tennis match where you're the umpire or are you inserting yourself and really more like a couples counselor. Tell me what's going on through your mind as you're mediating in these tense situations between two groups.
- [06:58]
Alex Carter
So I'm not a potted plant in the room. Born in Brooklyn. I can't shut up even if I try. But I like to say that mediation is where psychology meets the law. When we're in a room with people, we're often a translator. I help each one of those folks hear each other better because what they need is information. And over and over again, helping people negotiate all kinds of disputes. You know, from high dollar commercial cases to going into the courts of New York City and dealing with neighbors or local businesses or even love triangles. I found that there was one tool that people weren't using, but when they did, it paved the way for them to resolve their issue. Asking open ended questions, questions that uncovered
- [07:54]
Narrator/Additional Speaker
the other person's needs, concerns and goals. And most of us aren't great at that.
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Minouche Zomarodi
Alex Carter continues from the TED stage.
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Narrator/Additional Speaker
When I teach people about asking questions, I say, okay, I've just taken a trip. What can you ask me to get some good information? Top two questions they ask.
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Alex Carter
I bet you could guess number one.
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Narrator/Additional Speaker
Where did you go? Reno. Did you have a good time?
- [08:28]
Alex Carter
Yeah.
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Narrator/Additional Speaker
Two closed questions, two one word answers. So what's the best question? Well, it's a little bit of a trick because technically the best question of all doesn't end with a question mark. It's tell me all about your vacation. Tell me is the biggest question you can ask and it is the most powerful first question in any negotiation at work or at home with the hiring manager. Tell me how the company sees the salary range for this position with your teenager. Tell me what's making you ask for a $50 a week allowance. Tell me. Gets you the most information, but it also builds trust. So it creates the best deals.
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Minouche Zomarodi
Okay, I like this one. As an interviewer, I really try hard to do that. Also as a parent, because if you say, how was your day? You get the answer, fine, yes.
- [09:38]
Alex Carter
Because how was your day? Or how are you? Is not a real question. It's a social script. It's the thing we do before we get down to the actual topic that we're there to discuss. And kids and teenagers more than anyone else can smell a fake question and they won't answer it. No joke. Minouche. I realized at a certain point that as the question expert, I was coming home and asking my daughter, how was your day? And getting some monosyllabic grunt in response. Right. And when you change to tell me all about your day, Right. Or, you know, what went well today, or what was difficult today, all of a sudden you're opening the conversation up and opening up the relationship too.
- [10:24]
Minouche Zomarodi
So how does that work? You're going into these, you know, these are not teenagers. These are business people who want to get in and out. They're probably spending a lot of money on their lawyers. How do you get them to sort of take a beat and have curiosity about each other? What does that look like?
- [10:43]
Alex Carter
So what it looks like in a mediation is that initially I'm asking the questions. We walk in and we ask each person, tell us what's brought you here today. We don't ask, how much money do you want? What are your legal claims? What are your defenses? We ask them to tell us what's brought them there. And that means they could talk about a business problem, a relationship problem, or a legal problem. People are hungry for someone to listen, and it often just pours out of people.
- [11:14]
Minouche Zomarodi
There's an example in your book, an employment discrimination case. You were brought in and how did you deploy this tactic to sort of make it work? Yes.
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Alex Carter
So this time it's a woman who's suing a government agency. She alleges discrimination. She is incensed at the treatment she's received, and she's sitting across from a lawyer she's never met before and has no relationship with, which just makes her angrier. So the women are arguing back and forth. I'm asking open ended questions. I'm working really hard to de escalate things. My students are right by my side doing the same thing. We're going nowhere. And finally I look at the woman who's suing the agency and I notice that she's been wearing this necklace the entire time. And the necklace is a gold dog. And so I pause for a second and I say, I just have to ask, can you tell me about your necklace? It's beautiful. I've been looking at it all day. She brightens up immediately and says, oh, this. This is my show dog. Commander proceeds to tell us all about Commander and her, you know, alter ego as a dog handler, you can't make this up. The lawyer across the table says, no kidding. I have a show dog, too. Minouche we went from yelling to settled. Dogs, man, in 15 minutes. They wanted to hate each other. The show dog connection was just too strong. They settled. They shook hands. They walked out of there. You know, that showed me two things. Number one, the power of an open question. Number two, there's no such thing as small talk.
- [12:55]
Magdalena Hoeller
Ah.
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Alex Carter
The relationship is often central to what kind of deal you're going to get on the other side.
- [13:04]
Minouche Zomarodi
When we come back, more tips from Alex Carter, including how to figure out what you want before you even negotiate for it. On the show today, difficult negotiations. I'm Minouche Zamarodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from npr. Stay with us.
- [13:31]
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- [14:58]
Minouche Zomarodi
This message comes from NPR sponsor Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort. Journey through the heart of Europe on an elegant Viking longship with thoughtful service Destination focused dining and cultural enrichment on board and onshore. And every Viking voyage is all inclusive with with no children and no casinos. Discover more@viking.com it's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Anoush Zumarodi. On the show today, we are talking about managing difficult negotiations. We were talking to Alex Carter, a law professor and professional mediator who has developed an approach for everyday negotiations based on 20 years of experience. So her first rule, which we heard, is to ask open ended questions. But she also says that before you even start negotiations, you need to ask yourself, what do I need?
- [15:58]
Narrator/Additional Speaker
Most people don't know that every negotiation actually comes in two parts. The second part we all know about, that's where we're sitting down with someone else. But, but that first part, that's what I call the mirror. Because we have to negotiate with ourselves first before we negotiate with anyone else. And it's the most critical part of the negotiation too, because if we don't get this right, the negotiation stops there. We don't ask. We get confused about our priorities. We shut ourselves down before we give anybody else the chance.
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Minouche Zomarodi
If someone asks you what do you need? You need to know, right? And sometimes I feel like really asking yourself that question can be hard. And I think a lot of people don't do it. What do I really want? They go into battle and, and think, well, I just wanna win. But win what? And at what price?
- [17:07]
Alex Carter
I suppose yes, you know, and this comes out of, once again, my work as a mediator where I would ask people individually, what do you need? And even experienced, credentialed, brilliant people didn't know how to answer that question. So, Minouj, I like people to ask themselves that question in two buckets. Tangibles and intangibles.
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Minouche Zomarodi
Okay?
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Alex Carter
For a job search, the tangibles are the things you can touch, see your count. So the job title, the salary, all of the compensation buckets, maybe the resources that you're going to have. But the intangibles are the things that make you want to get up every day and go to that job. I want autonomy, I want challenge, I want good communication. And making that list really helps you because even for the intangibles, I, I like then for people to follow up with themselves and say, what would that look like? So what would good communication look like for me in this job or challenge, what would that look like? This way when you come in, I coach lots of people through job negotiations. They're not just thinking about, yes, here's my salary or here's my bonus or, here's my vacation time. But they're thinking about, what kinds of meetings will I be invited to, what kind of support will I get from. From my managers, you know, what kind of training will I receive? And it all goes back to you and what you need.
- [18:34]
Minouche Zomarodi
Okay, so I walk in with a sense of what I need, but then you say, flip the script. Ask the person on the other side of the table, what is it that you need? Does that. I wonder if people think like, oh, well, that's acquiescing. That's giving in. If I'm asking, what do you need?
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Narrator/Additional Speaker
Not at all.
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Alex Carter
Asking, what do you need? Is one of the most powerful strategic moves you can make for yourself in a negotiation. We assume all the time that we know what's important to people or what they need. And study after study has shown for decades now that one of the most important things you can do is figure out what the other person needs and then pitch what you're looking for in a way that meets that. You know, if you're asking an employer, right, so what do you need most from this role? You know, tell me about other people who have had this role. Tell me about the last superstar you hired and what made them so fantastic. That gives you a great sense, then, of how to pitch yourself so that you're the person to get the job done.
- [19:47]
Minouche Zomarodi
Mm. So let's say you've asked yourself these hard questions and you've come to some conclusions about what you want out of this. This job or this next. Let's say you're signing a contract, this next phase of your job, and you've also asked a lot of questions about what the. The employer needs out of filling this position. Then there's, like, the. Then it gets down to brass tacks, right? People coming in and looking at each other or having a phone call and expressing themselves to each other to really get down into the details. And where have you seen things go right? And where have you seen things go wrong?
- [20:29]
Alex Carter
So when you're getting down to brass tacks, right, this is the monetary part. Sometimes shutting up is exactly the thing you need to do to break a negotiation wide open.
- [20:43]
Narrator/Additional Speaker
I worked with a brilliant sales executive who sometimes would lose deals because he talked too much. He'd ask a great question, and then he would get scared of the silence. So he would eat it up with his words. What do you need to get this done here today? Well, I know our price point might be a little bit higher than that of our competitors, but I Think if you go ahead and look at our customer reviews. Want to know the secret to great deals? Shut up. Recent research found that leaving a period of silence in negotiation not only made it more likely that. That the other person would give you a high value move, but it also came across as collaborative. So how much silence?
- [21:43]
Alex Carter
I just did it.
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Narrator/Additional Speaker
Three and a half seconds. See, you were nervous, but we all survived. That's what I call landing the plane. Ask your question, make your proposal, and then zip it.
- [22:02]
Minouche Zomarodi
I hear, though, from a lot of people these days that, you know, the job market is really tough, the economy is volatile. They don't necessarily feel that they're in any position to negotiate. And that's what some employers are saying. You're lucky to have a job.
- [22:18]
Alex Carter
I heard this before. I've heard this during the pandemic 2020. You know, the pandemic is raging across the US job market's really tough. A lot of folks told me, I just don't feel I can negotiate. Those are the signals I'm getting on the other side. I heard from many, many hiring managers that they had room. They had at least 10%, sometimes 20% or more. But people weren't asking. Bottom line, companies expect you to negotiate. When you negotiate for yourself, you're often teaching them what kind of a negotiator you'll be for them. And very often there is room in the budget. What I would say, Minouche, is if you negotiate and you're coming from a place of solid information and the company acts shocked and appalled that you advocated, that to me, is a red flag that indicates might not be a great job for the long term.
- [23:24]
Minouche Zomarodi
I feel like, and maybe this is. I've watched too many movies, but maybe like, you know, don't show any emotion. Dress for the part that you, you know, want them for. The, the image you want them to perceive. When you go into a negotiation, don't show your. Your cards, you know, like that. There's a sort of like you're playing poker, essentially.
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Alex Carter
Yes.
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Minouche Zomarodi
But is that inaccurate?
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Alex Carter
It's not accurate anymore. My students and I do a lot of work at the United Nations. We train diplomats in conflict resolution. And one of the diplomats we helped told me that he'd been brought up in a system where you were supposed to exactly play poker, hold your cards close, and then spring a surprise on your adversary.
- [24:10]
Minouche Zomarodi
Ha ha.
- [24:11]
Alex Carter
Here it is, the reveal. And he said, that doesn't work anymore for at least two reasons. Number one, information. So much more information is out there now that in many Cases, it's only a matter of time until somebody figures out your surprise. The second thing is that a lot of industries or sectors or organizations get really small the longer you've been there. You see the same people over and over again. And most of life, most careers are a relationship sport. And so tricking someone once might get you short term gains. But in the long run, both research and all of my experience show me that you're going to get further by prioritizing the relationship and using that to achieve an outcome that works for both parties.
- [25:11]
Narrator/Additional Speaker
It's 3am and you have five hours to go before the entire world is expecting you and several other countries to announce a peace deal. But right now you have a problem because one of the other countries diplomats has left the building and is down in the parking lot threatening to drive, drive away because he feels disrespected. This was the situation that one of the diplomats I work with faced. But a lot of us face things like this in our everyday negotiations. So much of the popular wisdom talks about our adversary, our opponent. Well, in most everyday negotiations, that adversary at the bargaining table becomes our partner once that deal is done. The boss who holds the keys to your raise, once you get it, you're working together, or that home contractor you're negotiating with over your kitchen, once you settle on a price, you're trusting her to build a room you're going to love for years to come. And even when your spouse might feel
- [26:32]
Alex Carter
like an opponent,
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Narrator/Additional Speaker
well, you're still sleeping in the same bed at the end of the day. That diplomat I worked with, he walked out of the building, down to the parking lot and he approached the man who had left. He, he said to him, we are on the same side. He listened. Eventually, the two men walked together back into that building and later they announced that peace deal. My negotiation motto is this. I never request, I recruit. I don't want to talk to someone across the table. I want to pull them around with questions to my side of the table so that we are now co conspirators working toward the same goal.
- [27:38]
Minouche Zomarodi
Am I wrong in sort of taking away from your strategies that if you want a negotiation to go smoothly and quickly, you actually need to put in a heck of a lot more time, time up front, whether that's maintaining the relationship all along, before you even negotiate anything, whether that's spending time asking yourself what do you really want out of this? And whether that's asking the questions, getting the background information that you need to determine how you can reach an agreement, you can't just swan in there and think things are gonna wham, bam, get figured out.
- [28:17]
Alex Carter
You're going to spend time one way or the other. You're either going to spend it up front, or you can spend the time on damage control. Later on, when I do all day mediations and the first couple of hours in the morning, I'm asking people background on themselves and their companies and maybe going way back to the history of the conflict, inevitably somebody says, you know, professor Carter, I'm sure you know what you're doing, and we're really so glad
- [28:47]
Narrator/Additional Speaker
you're here, but, you know, could we
- [28:49]
Alex Carter
just get to it? Could we just, like, solve the problem? And I said, okay, great. What's the problem we're solving? That's what we're figuring out right now. And I tell people I am spending time to save time. I'm spending time this morning so that this afternoon, when we actually get to what you might consider the bargaining, it's going to go much more smoothly and much more effectively for you. We're trying to figure out what is that problem we're solving, what is that sweet spot, what's the zone of agreement, and then lining up the shot to hit it. Otherwise, we're coming in and we're just shooting arrows in the dark and praying for the best.
- [29:36]
Minouche Zomarodi
Have you ever, Alex, gone through all of these steps, thought that things were actually gonna proceed, and then it just hasn't worked out and negotiation has gone south?
- [29:49]
Alex Carter
Yes, yes, there are always things you can't control. And yes, I have helped people in negotiations where I thought I brought my very best as a mediator. And the parties have been there, and we were so close, I could smell it. And then it all of a sudden came crashing down. In this one case, this was, you know, once again, a federal government case, but it was about health and safety. And somebody was alleging that he had blown the whistle and then been fired. And he got what I thought was a really good offer, and he turned it down. He just had a vision in his head of what a good offer was and this wasn't it. And he felt really, really tied to that goal. And so he said no. And I knew this was a really meaningful amount of money. And the man was living in, like, a temporary trailer, and I was really worried about his safety for the long term, and he turned it down. And I had trouble sleeping. I thought to myself, you know, maybe I should have pushed harder, even though it's not my role. And then I got a call from somebody close to him. That his trailer had burned down.
- [31:27]
Minouche Zomarodi
Oh, no.
- [31:28]
Alex Carter
And he was in the hospital. He was in the hospital for close to 60 days. And I knew he had gotten out when he called me and he said, you know, I've been thinking, professor, about that offer and I'd like to take it. And I held my breath and called the other side and said on my knees, I am asking you, is this offer still on the table? And they said, it is. And we signed. I think about that often because it's. I slept better.
- [32:09]
Minouche Zomarodi
Yeah.
- [32:10]
Alex Carter
But it's not my role and it's not within my capability to make every negotiation go right. I've also counseled people through job negotiations where everything seemed so promising. And then they made a very reasonable counter offer and the company freaked out. Not many, but I know a few situations like that. It's jarring. It makes you second guess yourself. If you're the person negotiating. It makes you wonder. For me as a coach, sometimes I think about, could we have done anything more?
- [32:46]
Minouche Zomarodi
Mm.
- [32:48]
Alex Carter
The bottom line is you can't control what other people do. You can't control the wind and the waves, but you can control your paddle. And at the end of the day, even if you're taken off course temporarily by some wind or there's an unhelpful rock, if you keep pushing and steering, steering every day, steering those relationships, controlling what you can control, you're going to get to where you need to be.
- [33:20]
Minouche Zomarodi
That was Alex Carter. She's a mediator and professor at Columbia Law School. She's also the author of ask for 10 questions to negotiate Anything. You can see her full talk@ted.com on the show today. Difficult negotiations. I'm Anoush Zamorodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio hour from npr. We'll be right back. This message comes from wix. Nothing beats seeing your ideas turn into cold, hard cash. Well, if you use WIX Harmony, you better get used to it. WIX Harmony makes it unbelievably easy to create a fancy new website that's built to sell. Get the perfect blend of AI and drag and drop tools that puts you in control of every detail, plus an AI agent to help you every step of the way. Try it for free@wix.com Harmony this message
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- [35:54]
Minouche Zomarodi
it's the TED Radio Hour from npr. I'm Minouche Zamorodi. On the show today, difficult negotiations, and so far we've talked mostly about strategies for negotiating higher salaries or business deals. Which is all well and good, but as Alex Carter learned back in her kayak, much of the negotiating we do happens with our romantic partners. And the couples who might do the most negotiating, or are those from different cultures and countries? How do they deal with each other and what can they teach the rest of us? Linguist Magdalena Hoeller shares her story and insights from the TED stage.
- [36:35]
Magdalena Hoeller
On a cold but sunny autumn afternoon, I was riding on the back of my husband's motorcycle, just cruising along one of our favorite routes around Newcastle. It was a pretty fresh day, so we were all rugged, up in our protective gear. At a set of red lights, my husband lifted his visor and he said to me, hey, come feel my handles. So naturally I reached for his hips and gave them a playful squeeze and said, these handles are perfect, baby. What he of course meant was he his heated motorcycle handles, not his love handles. Yeah, a classic and genuine misunderstanding. And lucky we both have good humor. Otherwise this could have ended in an argument. But interactions like these happen every day in intercultural relationships. This is not unique to us, of course. In fact, one third of Australian marriages are intercultural these days, according to the absurd. Which means we've never been more intimately connected across the globe than we are right now. What I didn't tell you so far is that I'm from Austria, so my first language is Austrian German. And my husband is from Australia, so he speaks English. So these kinds of conversations, misunderstandings, long explanations of jokes and words shape our relationship. Now, in my research with intercultural couples, I found many beautiful aspects of having two different languages amongst partners, but also quite a few challenges that monolingual couples don't necessarily have to face. Let me ask you, if you cannot flawlessly communicate with the person you want to be closest to in this world, how does that affect your relationship? This is what I'm going to answer for you today. I speak six languages and I focus my studies in linguistics. And I worked with intercultural couples to uncover their language, behavior, and their dynamic. So let me take you on a journey today through the science behind all of these love handles stories out there. I'm going to let you in on three specific challenges that intercultural partners have to face on a daily basis, but sometimes don't even know that they're facing them. Some of these are very, very hidden. Now, I'm focusing mostly on romantic relationships here, but you can apply this equally to intercultural friends or even workplace encounters. The first challenge I'd like to share with you today is how different languages carry different emotional weights for people. What does that mean? It basically means that when I say I love you in English, it doesn't feel the same as saying ich liebedig. For me, as a German speaker, that's because language isn't just a tool for communication. It shapes our emotional experience. And our first language usually evokes the strongest one. That's why a declaration of love, which is such an emotionally charged statement, usually holds more weight for someone in their first language than in any language learned later in life. Now, I grew up with the words Ich liebedig from my parents. So over the years of my life, these have gained an emotional weight beyond what any other language can achieve for me. So what does that mean for intercultural partners? Now, imagine a Japanese French couple and they speak English together. Are they unable to communicate the true strength of their feelings because of this language distance? Now, my husband and I, we mostly speak English together. Does that mean when I say I love you in English, it means less because I'm emotionally detached from it? We can observe this also with other emotions. For example, something that comes up in relationships. Anger. Frustration with anger. It's very often a totally different experience in English. It's very often the impact that matters more. Instead of the words, it's the classic Honey, it's not what you said, it's how you said it. Let me give you an example. Early on in my relationship, during an argument, I dropped a certain C word. I'm not going to say what it is. You all know now, at that time in my relationship, I had no grasp how offensive that word is in English. To me, it was just four letters string together. Just something I heard around the street here in Australia. I had no emotional connection to it. But my husband, he was shocked, and rightly so. I've never used it since in any context. But that's the thing. When intercultural partners fight, we have to think of many things. Here is the word choice, right? Mine clearly wasn't. How does that word land on the other person? So what's the impact? Mine was clearly horrible and misdirected. And thirdly, what is the delivery of it? Also, what's the intonation? Is it too strong, too weak? And that's where intercultural partners, they bring their language background, they bring their cultural background to one table and have to negotiate this in a heated moment. At the same time, there's too much happening. Now, fighting is already difficult with monolingual partners, but adding all of these, these elements, that requires a lot of communication. But let's be honest, who actually sits down to determine the terms of a fight before a fight, right? Doesn't happen. The second challenge I'd like to share with you today is humor. Making each other laugh is a big part of relationships, but humor often doesn't translate very well. Sometimes a joke is funny in one language, but it falls flat in another, or it could be quite offensive. Now, linguistically, we can break this down into two parts, into receiving humor and producing humor. From a receiving side, a partner might feel unsure if they grasp the true meaning of a joke or just a superficial facet thereof. There's also the cultural aspect, of course. Partners with different language backgrounds naturally grew up in different in groups of a joke. So the people that understand a joke and the people that don't. I never understood why the Aussie phrase shrimp on a barbie isn't actually funny to Australians. It actually quite annoys them. My husband doesn't understand why the super cringy nostalgic 90s TV show Liebeskricht non heyeratsuchen is so hilarious to me. Different in groups, that means that intercultural partners have limited common ground to work with here. And if one partner doesn't understand the joke, the other is stuck trying to explain. And that conversation is never funny. From a producing Side, we all know that producing humor in a second language is an incredibly difficult skill to master. The subtext of a joke, the punchline, the context, the delivery, all while making sure that it's appropriate and, well, funny right. Now, in my research with intercultural couples, they all confirmed that they feel less funny when joking in a second language with their partners. Can you imagine what that does to your self esteem and to your couple dynamic? In one particular interview, one of the male participants said about his wife, I don't think she's ever made me laugh in English. She's a German speaker. Now, these sentiments aren't uncommon. Even I can attest to that. I always felt that I was effortlessly hilarious in Austrian German, but I couldn't bring that same energy to English. And I was so disheartened that my husband would never know the true comedic genius. His wife actually is such a tragedy. But that's the problem here. Humor, or the lack thereof, can create distance between. Between partners. It can stop us from truly knowing each other. I've left the last challenge for you, which I find the most interesting one. And it is also the most hidden one. It is something couples deal with, and it is so subtle, they very often don't even notice. And it is the hidden power dynamics between intercultural partners. From a pure language perspective. And we're only talking language here. There is always a partner who is linguistically superior and someone who is inferior. You might think now, well, it's the one who speaks the language better, right? That can be one aspect, but it's not quite that simple. There's many more layers and facets to it. You are correct, though. One aspect is language proficiency. Now, even though my English skills are really good and high, my husband is a native speaker. He will always be more proficient in English than I am. And that puts him at an advantage in a lot of situations. He's the one who manages all of our contracts. He's the one who explains vocabulary to me during movies when I don't understand. All of this isn't a big deal, of course, but in some ways it flows into the dynamic of our relationship because I am linguistically dependent on him. And that is something we never notice on a daily basis. It's extremely apparent, though, when we have an argument, we're having all these heated discussions in English, my second language, his first language. After a day of processing life and work and emotions and conversations in English, it takes me double the energy to find the right words in these heated moments. His responses are immediate, but I would Very often just like to say thank you for your response. I will get back to you in three to five business days. So you see, the partner with the higher language proficiency does have the upper hand here. But like I said, there's other factors too. There's also the global status of the language in use amongst partners. Now, global player languages like English, Spanish, Mandarin, they're viewed as superior in comparison to lesser spoken languages. So couples naturally gravitate towards them. The dominant global status of English will always take preference. And that flows into the dynamic of our relationship because we're not speaking my language as much as I'd like to. But one factor we cannot forget is the linguistic environment where a couple chooses to live or the country. Now, in Australia, a native speaker like my husband is, is in his linguistic comfort zone. But if you remove that safe environment, the power dynamics can very much change. As soon as we travel to Austria, suddenly I'm the one ordering food at restaurants. I'm the one translating at family events. The roles reverse. So the power dynamics are not just defined by the couple itself, but also by their surroundings. I've presented you with a range of hidden language challenges now that intercultural partners face on a daily basis. And I think it's pretty apparent dealing with two different languages here is tricky. You might be asking yourself right now, so what's the solution? What can we do? The bad news is that these things never really go away, no matter how long your relationship lasts. My husband and I, we've been together for nine years now and we still struggle with most of these things. The good news is that I can give you two very simple recommendations today. The first one is awareness. Be aware that your emotions can be guided by your language, love, anger, and everything in between. Be aware that your humor is rooted in your cultural background and it sometimes doesn't translate in another language. And be aware that your language skills and your surroundings can raise or lower your linguistic power over your partner. Because if you're conscious that these things are happening for you behind the scenes, you'll realize that these things are also happening for your partner. And only then you can work on my second recommendation together. And that is actively build your microculture. Your microculture is your perfect blend of both your cultures, your habits, your traditions, and your languages. So build your love language. Invent new words that don't exist. Switch between your languages as much as possible. Define your own humor. Get your own insider jokes. Define your own comedic language. That's the humor that counts. And work towards an equal power dynamic. Give each other chances to grow in each other's languages and countries. What I want you to take away today is that all these challenges are tricky, but they're also an opportunity to evolve, no matter if it's with an intercultural friend or at work or in a romantic relationship. Love is hard in a second language, but it's definitely worth it. I'm sure you'll all handle it, too. Thank you.
- [51:39]
Minouche Zomarodi
That was Magdalena Huller. She is a linguist and teaching director at Kaplan, an education company. You can see her full talk@ted.com thank you so much for listening to our show this week. If you enjoyed it, please rate us on Apple or leave us a comment and Spotify. We read every message and we love hearing from you. Also, I just want to shout out real quick to one listener who sent us a very lovely voice memo that lifted us all up. Here is Joe Thompson from Suffolk, England.
- [52:12]
Joe Thompson
So I just wanted to say I couldn't live without TED Radio Hour in some ways, and that might sound dramatic, but it is that when you're stuck in your job and when you're stuck in life, perhaps that feeling that we're not all alone or can be something that really helps people. So I wanted to say thank you because that certainly has helped me in the past. Past, certainly when I was doing jobs I didn't feel fulfilled by. And I think in a world where, you know, you talk about AI and you talk about the homogenization of content, I do look towards those that hold very high standards of creativity and of ideas. And I definitely hold you in that regard. So Manouche and your team, thank you so much for what you do.
- [53:06]
Minouche Zomarodi
Thank you so much, Joe, and to all of you for listening. This episode was produced by Matthew Cloutier and James Delahousy. It was edited by Sanaz Meshkinpour, Katie Monteleone and me, with a special thanks to Allison McAdam. Our production staff at NPR also includes Fiona Guerin, Phoebe Lett, Rachel Faulkner White, and Hersha Nahada. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Our audio engineer was Stacey Abbott. Our partners at TED are Chris Anderson, Helen Walters, Roxanne Hylash, and Daniela Balaurazzo. I'm Minouche Zomorodi, and you have been listening to the TED Radio Hour from npr.
- [53:42]
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