Life can be so awkward. Here's how to embrace the embarrassing

Summary

TED Radio Hour: Life Can Be So Awkward. Here's How to Embrace the Embarrassing Host: Manoush Zomorodi | Release Date: April 25, 2025

---

Introduction

In this compelling episode of the TED Radio Hour, host Manoush Zomorodi delves into the often uncomfortable realm of awkwardness. Titled "Life Can Be So Awkward. Here's How to Embrace the Embarrassing," the episode explores the multifaceted nature of social awkwardness, its impact on individuals, and how embracing these moments can lead to personal growth and creativity. Through insightful conversations with experts and creative minds, the episode offers a nuanced understanding of why awkwardness is not just an inevitable part of life but can also be a catalyst for positive change.

---

Personal Stories of Awkwardness

Ty Tashiro: A psychologist and author of Awkward: The Science of Why We're Socially Awkward and Why That's Awesome, shares his own experiences with social awkwardness. Reflecting on his middle school days, Ty recounts how he and his friends attempted to reclaim recess time by reenacting wrestling matches, only to realize the lack of participation and acceptance from their peers.

• Key Moment: At [04:02], Ty describes his pivotal moment when realizing the broader social disconnect while being physically knocked unconscious during a wrestling reenactment:

  "Dazed and embarrassed, Ty stared up at seemingly every kid who he had ever wanted to impress. And he wondered, why am I like this?"

Melissa Dahl: A journalist and author of A Theory of Awkwardness, Melissa Fink opens up about her seventh-grade diary entries, which she later shared publicly through the Mortified podcast. Her story emphasizes the profound emotional turmoil that accompanies awkward moments and the journey towards self-acceptance.

• Notable Quote: At [40:40], Melissa reflects on embracing past embarrassments as markers of personal growth:

  "The honest answer is you're just not going to. And there's reason to think that, like, if you're not cringing at things you did 10, five years ago last week, then you're not growing as a person."

---

The Science of Awkwardness

Ty Tashiro delves deeper into the psychological aspects of awkwardness, distinguishing it from clinical conditions like autism. He outlines four key characteristics of awkward individuals:

1. Social Skill Deficits: Difficulty in reading and executing appropriate social cues.
2. Communication Challenges: Struggles with both understanding others and conveying intentions.
3. Obsessive Interests: Intense focus on specific interests, sometimes to the detriment of broader social awareness.
4. Preference for Structure: A need for predictability and routine in daily life.

• Insightful Analogy: At [12:13], Ty uses a stage metaphor to illustrate how awkward individuals perceive social interactions differently:

  "Imagine that there's a stage and... awkward people, by comparison, see that same stage, not broadly illuminated, but spotlighted... they're going to miss a lot of the key social information that's taking place... but they're going to have this brilliant perspective on an unusual part of the interactions."

Discussion on Continuum vs. Categorical Diagnoses: Ty highlights the problematic nature of categorizing mental diagnoses strictly, advocating for a continuum approach where awkwardness exists on a spectrum rather than a binary classification.

• Quote on Diagnosis: At [09:16], Ty explains:

  "Awkward people aren't autistic. I don't think it would be good for us to say that they're on the autism spectrum, but it is the case that it's not a clean cutoff."

---

Embracing Awkwardness for Personal Growth

Melissa Dahl emphasizes the empowering aspects of awkwardness, suggesting that embracing one's social challenges can lead to extraordinary achievements. She shares her childhood obsession with sports statistics as an example of how deep focus can translate into unique talents.

• Key Insight: At [16:51], Melissa connects her penchant for structure and routine to her success:

  "The curious correlation that's pretty robust between awkward characteristics and what psychologists would call striking talent or extraordinary achievement."

Advice on Navigating Awkwardness: Melissa advises individuals, especially those who identify as awkward, to harness their passions without losing themselves in the process.

• Notable Quote: At [21:15], she shares wisdom passed down from her parents:

  "The key is figuring out how to fit in without losing yourself. It's advice I still take to heart to this day."

---

Awkwardness in Creativity and Art

Liana Fink, a New Yorker cartoonist, explores how awkwardness informs her creative process. Through her graphic memoir How to Baby, Liana captures uncomfortable moments in her life with simple yet poignant drawings, illustrating how embracing vulnerability can foster connection and understanding.

• Creative Expression: At [24:33], Liana discusses her approach to depicting awkwardness:

  "I try to sum it up and put it into words and pictures to make sense of it, kind of as a service."

Redefining Divine Expectations: In her adaptation of the Book of Genesis, Liana reimagines God as a fallible, self-conscious character, aligning divine anxiety with human insecurities.

• Impactful Statement: At [25:03], Liana explains the significance of her reimagined deity:

  "It's lonely being someone who has no idea how to act normal, but it's profoundly less lonely being that person in a world created for her by an equally awkward, self-conscious God."

---

Frank Conversations About Sex and Consent

The episode also features a segment by Erin Chen, a sex and relationship counselor, addressing the awkwardness surrounding conversations about sex. Drawing parallels between societal comfort with food preferences and the discomfort with discussing sexual preferences, Erin advocates for a more open, normalized dialogue about sexual wellness.

• Key Message: At [43:00], Erin emphasizes the importance of permission in discussing sexuality:

  "Don't go through life terrified of asking others about durians. Living a sexually intelligent life is worth it. And just remember the secret ingredient of permission."

---

Conclusion

"Life Can Be So Awkward. Here's How to Embrace the Embarrassing" intricately weaves personal anecdotes, scientific insights, and creative expressions to present a holistic view of awkwardness. By challenging societal norms and encouraging self-acceptance, the episode underscores the transformative potential of embracing one's awkward moments. Whether through psychology, journalism, or art, the contributors illuminate how awkwardness can lead to deeper self-awareness, stronger connections, and remarkable achievements.

Final Thought: As Ty Tashiro aptly puts it, awkwardness is not a flaw but a unique characteristic that, when harnessed, can unlock extraordinary potential within individuals.

---

Notable Quotes

• Ty Tashiro [05:21]: "Dazed and embarrassed, Ty stared up at seemingly every kid who he had ever wanted to impress. And he wondered, why am I like this?"

• Melissa Dahl [16:51]: "The curious correlation that's pretty robust between awkward characteristics and what psychologists would call striking talent or extraordinary achievement."

• Erin Chen [43:00]: "Don't go through life terrified of asking others about durians. Living a sexually intelligent life is worth it. And just remember the secret ingredient of permission."

---

Further Exploration

For those intrigued by the themes of this episode, explore the full talks by Ty Tashiro, Liana Fink, Melissa Dahl, and Erin Chen at ted.com to gain deeper insights into the science and art of embracing awkwardness.

---

Produced by James Delahousy, Katie Monteleone, Matthew Cloutier, and Harsha Nahada. Edited by Sanaz Meshkin. Theme music by Ramtin Arablouei.

Transcript

[Advertiser]

This message comes from Discover, accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. If you don't think so, maybe it's time to face facts. You're stuck in the past. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. [e-mail] Credit Card this is the TED Radio Hour.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Each week, groundbreaking TED Talks.

[Ty Tashiro]

Our job now is to dream big.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Delivered at TED conferences to bring about the future we want to see around the world to understand who we are. From those talk, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you. You just don't know what you're gonna find challenge you.

[Liana Fink]

We truly have to ask ourselves, like, why is it noteworthy and even change you?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I literally feel like I'm a different person. Yes. Do you feel that way? Ideas worth spreading from TED and npr. I'm Minouche Zamarodi and I hate to do this to you, but we are going to start the show. Back in the painfully awkward days of.

[Melissa Dahl]

Middle school, if you think about a cafeteria, there was the cool kid table, there's the athlete table, and maybe the edgy alternative table. But there was always a table of nerds.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

This is Ty, Toshiro, the socially awkward.

[Melissa Dahl]

Kids who were the furthest thing from cool, who were maybe a little physically clumsy, who dressed frumpy.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And yeah, that was Ty.

[Melissa Dahl]

I sat at that table.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

So it was the first week of school. He had just started seventh grade, and.

[Melissa Dahl]

At my table were three other guys. One was Hassan. He was kind of this math prodigy who ended up taking classes at the high school.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

There was Will. He spent his time building model pine cars.

[Melissa Dahl]

He apparently dominated the pine car racing circuit.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And Eddie, he was the funny one.

[Melissa Dahl]

But he had this dry humor, kind of a Wes Anderson humor that nobody really got. And we were all, you know, nice kids. We were good kids, but we were definitely not cool.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And as the four looked around, they knew that they weren't cool, but they didn't understand why gossipy people wearing torn jeans or aviator sunglasses were.

[Melissa Dahl]

No one played tag or King of the Mountain or Foursquare or any of these other other things we thought were really cool. Instead, kids just stood around.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Ty, Hasan, Will, and Eddie thought this was boring and absurd, and so they were going to do something about it. They were going to play.

[Melissa Dahl]

We were going to bring back the good old days of recess and inspire other kids to rediscover the wonders of play. So after some deliberation, we decided to kick it off with one of our favorite playtime activities, which were reenactments of wrestling matches from the Worldwide Wrestling Federation.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

They staked out a corner of the schoolyard between a chain link fence and a soccer goal and got down to the important decision of deciding who would play who.

[Melissa Dahl]

Will declared that he'd play Hulk Hogan, who was the current champion. Someone else was Randy Macho Man Savage. Hasan selected the Iron Sheik. And keeping with these kind of semi offensive racial stereotypes, I chose to be Mr. Fuji, who was the lone Japanese American wrestler in the federation. And we really got into it.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

There were choke holds, Irakes, arm bars, body slams, and all the elaborate theater that went along with it.

[Melissa Dahl]

And it was fun flying to the fence and then bounce back in double time and then you'd clothesline them in the neck with your outstretched arm.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

This went on for weeks, Ty and his friends swinging each other around, until.

[Melissa Dahl]

One day I paused to, you know, wipe the sweat from my brow, and I just happened to glance at the other students in the courtyard. And all of a sudden, for the first time, I had this sharp revelation. None of the other kids were joining us. You know, a few of them watched us with a mixture of kind of fascination and horror. And as I realized all this, I felt my stomach sink and I felt a panic in my chest. Now, right at that moment of realization, Hulk Hogan placed this tight grip onto my arm and he began to swing me around to build momentum, Kind of like an Olympian getting ready to do the hammer throw. And my social life was kind of flashing before my eyes, you know, Will released me and it sent me forehead first into one of the steel fence posts. When I regained consciousness, I opened my eyes and my vision was blurred. And all I could see that there was this large group of kids that had gathered around the spectacle of me being knocked unconscious.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Dazed and embarrassed, Ty stared up at seemingly every kid who he had ever wanted to impress. And he wondered, why am I like this?

[Melissa Dahl]

Why am I so socially awkward? And what am I going to do about that?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Life is full of awkward occasions and people, and not just in middle school. It's going for a hug when the other person offers a handshake. It's that awful photo of you at the age of 12 that your mom puts on Facebook every year. It's every single appointment with the gynecologist. So how can we get over ourselves and make peace, Even appreciate the most cringe worthy interactions in our lives? On the show today, people who have found ways to shrug off shame and embrace the awkward through conversations, research, even art. But back to Tai Toshiro. In middle school, wrestling was just the latest In a long string of socially awkward behavior. Young Tai had a hard time reading body language. He was clumsy, prone to daydreaming, and he knew it. So he started studying how to overcome some of his awkwardness.

[Melissa Dahl]

I found kind of social role models, social heroes who were my peers. And you try to do it in a way that's not creepy, of course, but you're just kind of observing, hey, how do they navigate greetings? You know, what do they say?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Give me an example. What would you write?

[Melissa Dahl]

The bus stop was a big challenge for me. There were these three cute girls at the bus stop, and of course, I never had any idea about what to say. I did want to say something. There was a new kid at school, this kind of good looking, mini Tom Cruise like, kind of guy. And I watched this smooth talker at the bus stop, and boy, was I taking notes about that. And one of the things like, I took away from that, which might not sound obvious to folks, was just the casualness with which he approached the situation. You know, my tendency still sometimes to this day is to come in hot. But, you know, he would just come in so easy and so casual. And I just kind of wrote that down.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

No big surprise that later Ty ended up studying psychology and even wrote a book about the science of awkwardness. And what makes some people feel so ill at ease in the world.

[Melissa Dahl]

Yeah, I think it's helpful to understand two different aspects of awkwardness. So there's awkward moments, and then there's awkward people. Awkward people, they actually think about the world and take in the world differently they than people who aren't awkward. And it really falls into three characteristics. So awkward people have social skill deficits. They have a hard time knowing what's expected in a social situation and also have a hard time executing the right social skill. They have trouble communicating, which can be understanding what someone's trying to tell them, but also communicating what they intend to other people. And the third thing is obsessive interests. And I actually kind of love this. People who are awkward really love what they love, but sometimes to their detriment. So they can become hyper focused on something and lose track of the broader social narrative.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It's interesting because I think a lot of times people conflate the awkward person with a person who is on the autism spectrum. But are they very different? Where is there a crossover?

[Melissa Dahl]

Yeah. So psychology and psychiatry have kind of taught us to think about mental diagnoses as categorical as either or kinds of things. Right. You either have depression or you don't. And that's actually kind of unhelpful because the average person might have a couple of mild depressive symptoms, like one or two. The average person actually has maybe just a couple of awkward or autistic traits in a mild kind of way. And so it runs along this continuum. And so awkward people aren't autistic. I don't think it would be good for us to say that they're on the autism spectrum, but it is the case that it's not a clean cutoff. So autistic people are kind of like in the top 1% of autistic symptoms. But then there's all these people that fall at the 98th percentile or 95th percentile, 90th percentile, and they still have a lot of problems with social skills and communication. And so they're closer to someone who's autistic than they are to someone who's average. And so what do we call that? And as I got into it, I thought, well, we call someone with social skill deficits and communication problems. We call those people awkward. I can't tell you how many people I've run into over the past couple years who have said, you know what? And my son or daughter would be at, like, that 95th percentile of autism characteristics. And they can never qualify for a diagnosis, but they can't get their kid any help just because they don't cross that threshold. So, yeah, how do we still have empathy for that? And how do we, as a society support people who are really struggling, who. But just don't meet that threshold?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Earlier, you mentioned various common traits of awkward people, and I want to ask you about one of them, which is having sort of narrow interests.

[Melissa Dahl]

Yes, it is a common characteristic, and it's actually one of my favorites. Awkward people, on average, I mean, they really love what they love. I mean, a lot. And I think that's a wonderful quality, all that passion that. That they have for their interests. I met a awkward adult a couple of years ago who told me they like Game of Thrones, which a lot of people did like Game of Thrones, but this person really, really loved Game of Thrones. They had learned to speak Dothraki, which was one of the languages spoken in that show. And so that just kind of shows you the level of focus and the level of obsessiveness that kind of differentiates an awkward person from, you know, kind of the average person who has their likes and their interests. There's a quick analogy that's helpful to think about a lot of this science Imagine that there's a stage and let's say it's broadly illuminated.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Tai Tashiro continues.

[Melissa Dahl]

From the TED stage, you could see everything that happens. You could see people enter stage left or exit stage right. You could gather the social context surrounding the action. But you would spend most of your time looking center stage because that's where most of the key interactions will take place, and that's how most people see the social world unfold. Now, awkward people, by comparison, see that same stage, not broadly illuminated, but spotlighted. And to make things interesting, that spotlight tends to fall a little left of center. So that means they're going to miss a lot of the key social information that's taking place place. But they're going to have this brilliant perspective on an unusual part of the of the interactions and of the plot in a minute.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

More awkward characteristics and Ty's argument for why being awkward it's kind of awesome. I'm Minouche Zamorodi. You're listening to the TED Radio Hour from npr and we'll be right back.

[Advertiser]

This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on Think or swim. Visit schwab.com to learn more. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Spectrum Business Working to power businesses nationwide with reliable connectivity services When Emily and Mike decided to start a custom shoe design store in Charlotte, North Carolina, they knew the road ahead wouldn't be easy. They dreamed of creating a fun, inspiring environment to promote self expression. But they knew they couldn't achieve their vision without reliable Internet. So they chose Spectrum to help them stay connected and to keep important tools like cloud based design programs running smoothly and as they grew, offering workshops, custom designs and more. Spectrum was there every step of the way with flexible pricing and dedicated 24. 7 service. Learn [e-mail] business restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas this.

[Liana Fink]

Message comes from NPR sponsor Disney. Season 1 of Andor had critics calling it the best Star wars series yet. Season two of the Emmy nominated series is now streaming on Disney. Follow Cassian Andor as he embarks on a path from a rebel to a hero starring Diego Luna and from creator Tony Gilroy, writer of Michael Clayton and the Bourne Identity. Season two of Andor is now streaming only on Disney.

[Advertiser]

This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on think or swim. Visit schwab.com to learn more foreign.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It'S the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Minouche Zumarodi and we were just talking to psychologist Ty Teshiro, an expert on awkwardness and a self identified awkward person. In his book Awkward the Science of why We're Socially Awkward and why that's awesome, he outlines four characteristics of awkward people, including studies that show they prefer math and science to humanities, that they like a lot of structure and sameness, and that basically they lean toward ways of making life more predictable.

[Melissa Dahl]

That's exactly it. I mean, predictability is a great word to tie together all these different characteristics. You know, let me dissect this thing, understand all the different parts. Well, that's a lot of control. Now let me put it back together in a way that makes sense and is predictable. That's exactly what's going on. And so one of the things you'll find with awkward folks is that they're very routine, focused. They have their way that they like to do things, they have their habits. And although any of us can get a little frustrated when our routines get interrupted, awkward people can get really bent out of shape about that. It's almost a panicked feeling that, hey, the structure I've put out there to help manage my life is being disrupted. And when things turn spontaneous, I'm really not as well prepared to handle like a spontaneous social interaction.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It's almost like your inner computer is like recalculating, recalculating, recalculating. And it needs a minute. Like you said earlier, yes, you do say that being socially awkward is awesome. If you were talking to an awkward kid and they were like, I'm so sorry, I do not understand what is awesome about feeling like this. What would you say?

[Melissa Dahl]

You know, I'd say, look, I understand the skepticism for sure because the social awkwardness is definitely not fun. And having that unknowing about what's going on in social situations and that chaos in your mind about what is going on here and how do I handle this appropriately? None of that's fun and it's pretty exhausting. And it's really not until later a lot of times that people realize that, yeah, hey, there has been upside to some of my awkward characteristics. You know, when I was a kid about 7 or 8 years old, my spotlight fell on something pretty unusual for a kid of that age, statistics. So, you know, my childhood is pretty much like Friday Night Lights. My dad was a coach and athletic director in our small town at the high school. And so at the games, I could have sat anywhere I wanted. I could have sat with the coaches or with the players, even the cheerleaders. But I instead chose to sit by the scorekeeper's table and I would ask the scorekeepers a million questions. I was fascinated with this idea that they could quantify something as hectic as a basketball game, and then the coaches could take those numbers and help the players work together in a more efficient and cooperative way. I was so obsessed with it that I would spend hours upon hours analyzing the data when I got home. And while this was a great interest, it's not the kind of thing, thing that makes you cool at school. I can say now I was so interested in this notion of data that I started reading the sports pages for other sports to see how statistics were logged there and would wake up early every morning to scour through the statistics. I also learned I had an unusual memory for numbers. And I would love it when the coaches turned to me on the bus and asked me about a player's points or shooting percentage. And I could just recite it off the top of my head. You know, it was early signs of some things that I might enjoy doing later on, and the kind of enthusiasm and interest I had for it was certainly unusual. That's actually the underpinnings for why awkwardness can be awesome is that because they can be really hyper focused on something and really persistent. What that can translate to is this kind of stubbornness to pursue really extraordinary things that other people might not want to pursue or might get bored with. So there's this curious correlation that's pretty robust between awkward characteristics and what psychologists would call striking talent or extraordinary achievement.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I think that makes total sense.

[Melissa Dahl]

Yeah. You know, you could kind of look around at some of the people who have achieved really extraordinary things in our society. If you kind of stop and think about it, a lot of them are actually kind of awkward. This person just sat in their garage for years and worked on this enormous problem. But step by step figured out how the parts work, and by doing so, they were able to see a unique way to put those parts together for a solution that was totally novel and game changing.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I mean, I say to my kids, if high school is the best time of your life, then that means it's all downhill from there. Like, no, it should be hard and awkward because you're working towards being a fully fledged humanoosha.

[Melissa Dahl]

I think that's great. Advice to give your kids. Because, yeah, if you think you totally know what's going on in high school, then you've taken someone else's framework.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Totally. Yes.

[Melissa Dahl]

You know, I think one of the best things my parents told me repeatedly as I was growing up, they say, hey, Ty. So the key is figuring out how to fit in without losing yourself. And I think that's such great advice. It's advice I still take to heart to this day. And I think it's especially pertinent to people who are socially awkward. You know, awkward people have these passions, they have this incredible love for their interests and what they do. And don't be ashamed of that. You know, just fully embrace that and be proud of that. And it's just that the trick is don't get lost in that.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

That was Tai Teshiro. He's a psychologist and the author of Awkward. You can see his full [e-mail] on the show today. So awkward. And as Ty said, growing up, awkward can stink. But it can also be a bonus later in life if you figure out how to harness it.

[Ty Tashiro]

Drying has always been my, like, first language because I was so shy when I was young and I always loved to draw. So I think I started using it to explore these big feelings in my late 20s. And it's been so helpful.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

This is New Yorker cartoonist Liana Fink. She has made an entire career based on her simple line drawings that capture uncomfortable moments in her life. Big moments like what it felt like when she found out she was pregnant.

[Ty Tashiro]

It's so weird. And it's so weird voluntarily choosing to do it. It's like standing out in a field with a big sign saying, like, take me, aliens.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

But also everyday interactions, like how to respond in a coffee shop when someone asks you to watch their laptop while they go to the bathroom.

[Ty Tashiro]

It would startle me to the point where I got a migraine and couldn't get back to work for 10 minutes. It's that much startle. It's like a lot.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It's like you're being attacked by a lion.

[Ty Tashiro]

It's what it feels like. And now I say no, because I think asking a stranger to watch your laptop is ridiculous because you want the laptop to be protected from strangers. So.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

But wait a minute. If someone said no, I would be like, wait, what? Yeah, like, that would be so weird.

[Ty Tashiro]

Yeah, maybe it shouldn't be.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I don't know.

[Ty Tashiro]

It is. Yes, it's awkward.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

These situations might not strike you as funny, but Liana has discovered that a lot of people don't feel like they understand the unspoken rules of social interactions.

[Ty Tashiro]

My rules are the rules of leaving each other alone and being considerate to each other.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And her very specific and awkward sense of humor has found a cult following.

[Ty Tashiro]

I'm not sure I'm right, but I think my perceptions are pretty, pretty dead on. But I also think that they're magnified to a point of distortion. I don't have a particularly interesting. So I just like to write about the parts of my life that I think other people also go through. And I try to sum it up and put it into words and pictures to make sense of it, kind of as a service. I sometimes wonder if I miss the memo about the most basic things. What are you supposed to make for dinner? What do you talk about in an elevator? Why do people cut in line?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Here's Liana Fink on the TED stage.

[Ty Tashiro]

There are, of course, problems that can't be summed up in a single drawing. For these problems, you need many drawings. One more complex problem I have is with God. I'm Jewish, so I'm talking about the God of the Old Testament. My problem with God isn't actually a big problem. It's just, I don't know, it stayed with me. My problem with God is that he's too confident. For me, creation is an act of solving problems, of figuring things out. God already seems to have everything figured out. He strikes me as more of a king than a creator, and I'm not sure you can be both. As an experiment, I decided to remake the book of Genesis as a graphic novel. My version of God is not confident. And maybe not coincidentally, she's a woman. I drew her as a kind of magical, giant little girl character. And she loves to make things. She has complete faith in her own powers to make things. She thinks very simply. On the other hand, she's always questioning herself. And after she makes something, she feels like she's really crossed a boundary and gone too far and kind of shown herself because she's very self conscious and very shy. The Bible opens in this mysterious, moody way with God floating aimlessly on the face of a dark, mysterious void. In my version, I have her floating this way because she's feeling despondent about her limitations as an artist. She's made this messy, wet, mixed up, dark first drafts of the world, and she just doesn't know where to go from here. My adaptation of the Book of Genesis is a creation story full of false starts and absurdities, but it's a creation story all the same. One in which a self conscious woman, even though she worries and makes mistakes, is nonetheless a successful, committed artist. When I finished my book, I did feel a new connection to the God of the Torah and a new sense of belonging to my religion. I also felt a new sense of belonging, period. It's lonely being someone who has no idea how to act normal, but it's profoundly less lonely being that person in a world created for her by an equally awkward, self conscious God. These days, when I worry that I won't know what to make for dinner, I remind myself that God wouldn't know either.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

What is your relationship to God now?

[Ty Tashiro]

I miss her. I felt really connected to her while I was working on this book. It was a number of years and it's the only time in my life that I've felt kind of uncomplicatedly connected to my culture and my religion. And I just, I loved her. And now the last vestige of that is that I've been reading my book to my two and a half year old. And so my son actually believes that God is this character and he talks about her a lot. And it just feels so naughty and like so vindicating that my son believes that God is me.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Your version puts God on the same playing field as us and it creates or gives space for people to feel less ashamed of their insecurities, their humanity, their cringy moments. Yeah, I think that's why it speaks to people.

[Ty Tashiro]

Thank you. It's permission. And I so appreciate your putting it this way because a lot of people say you did this like, wild thing. How did you ever think to make God fallible? Like, I've never thought that God wasn't fallible. And I can't believe that anyone really believes that. To be fair, I don't believe in God.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Oh, really?

[Ty Tashiro]

Yeah.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Huh. Do you ever have people who look at your work and are like, what are you even talking about? Do you feel like, oh, yeah, all.

[Ty Tashiro]

The time when people say, I'm surprised that you're such a sweet person in real life because your cartoons are so vicious and you seem so angry?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Huh. Why do you think they think that?

[Ty Tashiro]

I think they're partly right. I think I've always been pretty direct, but I hid it until I was an adult. I was so afraid of ever offending someone. And I think maybe my extreme shyness when I was younger came from knowing that if I spoke it would be slightly off putting in a certain way. But since I've learned to not be shy, like, it's come my personality is coming out. And for what it's worth, I haven't been diagnosed, but the thing I relate to the most is mild autism. And like, that. I don't think that diagnosis even existed when I was a kid.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

You're talking about this awkwardness that you felt as a kid and really turning it into your life's work. Do you still feel like you don't know what the rules are or have the rules changed because people are, you know, way more aware of neurodiversity? All sorts of language that we didn't use when I was a kid or where, like, how do you see the world right now as it relates to you and feeling like you don't know the rule book.

[Ty Tashiro]

I feel like I know the rules, but I feel intensely that they don't actually make sense to me and that I'm working really hard to follow them. I think becoming a professional really helped. Like, people respect me for my work to some extent. And also maybe certain things I've learned to do, even though they make me really uncomfortable, like, make eye contact and, like, have long hangouts and, like, watch people's laptop while I'm supposedly having my two work hours in the day that are hard for me that wouldn't be hard for someone else. And so that often gets me into trouble when I'm trying so hard to play by the rules. But sometimes maybe I want to just play by my own rules and give myself a break. And that's when people misunderstand me or when I misunderstand people.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

But I think your point being that, like, these moments that you capture feel very intense at the time, but you move on.

[Ty Tashiro]

Yeah, you move on. That's really the most magical thing in the world, is that, like, the thing you're feeling in the moment as if it's the entire world, is not what you're feeling five minutes later at all. You're feeling something else, and your work.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Gives you a chance to recognize that. I think a lot of people move on and they forget how bad or awful it was. And maybe it's worth remembering that it was bad or awful, but you survived.

[Ty Tashiro]

Well, I never reread my own work, even if I made it yesterday, so I think I prefer to forget also.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

That's cartoonist Liana Fink. Her latest book is a graphic memoir called how to Baby, chronicling her experience as a new parent. You can see her full talk with her [e-mail] on the show today. So awkward. I'm Anoush Zumarodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from npr. Stay with us.

[Advertiser]

This message comes from Amazon Business how can you free your team from time consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth. It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology, insights and.

[Liana Fink]

Support [e-mail] this message comes from NPR sponsor State Farm. In the market for small business insurance, State Farm agents can help you create a personalized plan that fits your business needs and budget. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Talk to your local agent today. This message comes from NPR sponsor Tools and Weapons, the podcast hosted by Microsoft's Vice Chair and President Brad Smith. Across three exclusive conversations on the company's 50th anniversary, Microsoft's CEOs Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer and Satya Nadella share the stories, dreams and drive that fueled the digital revolution and explain why it may be at its most exciting point yet. For these and more conversations with other thought leaders, Search Tools and weapons Wherever you listen to podcasts, support for this podcast and the following message come from E Trade from Morgan Stanley. With E Trade you can dive into the market with easy to use tools, $0 commissions and a wide range of and now there's even more to love. Get access to industry leading research and insights from Morgan Stanley to help guide your decisions. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Get started [e-mail] terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It's the TED Radio Hour from npr. Hi, I'm Minouche Zumarodi and on the show today so awkward. Whether you identify as an awkward person or not, we have all had embarrassing moments. Few of us would choose to share them publicly, but our next guest says that maybe we should.

[Aaron Chen]

It completely surprised me, actually.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Back in 2017, journalist and author Melissa Dahlia decided to stand on stage in an auditorium full of strangers to read from her seventh grade diary.

[Aaron Chen]

April 14, 1998.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It was for a stage show and podcast called Mortified.

[Aaron Chen]

I Hate My Life. I don't know anyone in my GEO class. Ditto for a computer.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And Melissa told the story of how she felt moving from Nashville to Chicago.

[Aaron Chen]

I'm the slowest typer in class. Christy k. Can type 41 words per minute. I can only type 29 words per minute.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And some of the struggles she had fitting in at her new school, including deciding which boy band to like.

[Aaron Chen]

How come no one here likes Hanson? This sounds silly, but to me, it was, like, humongous. At the time, my big heartbreak was no one at my new school loved my beloved boy band, Hanson. She says, I don't like the Backstreet Boys, and she doesn't like Hanson, so we'll have nothing to talk about. If that's how she feels, then I'll like the Backstreet Boys. I'll hate Hanson. The way I wrote in my diary was just, like, raw emotion. It wasn't like, this happened today. It was like, I am so sad. And so it was like presenting this really raw version of myself to these strangers and just not a version of myself that sees the light of day that often.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

So at the time, Melissa was working on a book that she ended up calling Cringe Worthy. And confronting her longstanding fear of awkward moments was also research.

[Aaron Chen]

Mortified turned out to be just, like, a really lovely show with, like, a huge heart. And we all had these ridiculous stories we were, like, about to share on stage to an audience, and there was something kind of like a collective notion about it, a community notion about it, and it ended up being really cathartic.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

When you were going through your diaries and thinking about reading them aloud, did you feel compassion towards your awkward teenage self, who, it sounds like, didn't know that she was awkward or did she?

[Aaron Chen]

I think she definitely did. And that a lot of the journal was about wrestling with how much of herself to, like, really show and then how much to kind of, like, remold, fit into this new place. And, like, I hadn't thought about that version of myself in. In a really long time. I'd kind of, like, locked that away. Like, I'm, you know, I'm totally different now, but, you know, like, these are the parts of ourselves that we try to hide we're embarrassed of. And it's like that part is how you actually make a real connection with someone else when they're like, oh, like, I see that in myself.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Hmm.

[Aaron Chen]

We think that, like, presenting this, like, perfect version of ourselves to the world is the thing that's giving the good impression. But really, people tend to, like, the. Who spill coffee on themselves or whatever. Like, that's a real study. Yeah, it just. To me, I guess I actually started the book kind of thinking it would be pretty prescriptive. Here are these 10 ways to banish feeling awkward forever from your life. But it turned out that's not what happened. What ended up happening in the end is I totally changed my mind about the way I see these emotions.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Melissa Dahl continues from the TED stage.

[Aaron Chen]

I'm talking about these self conscious emotions, which are things like shame, embarrassment, and my favorite, awkwardness. And it's our natural instinct to resist these feelings. You know, they're unpleasant, they're uncomfortable, we don't like them. But what if we didn't resist? What if we gave them some space? What are they trying to say? I believe now that they are prompting us to ask ourselves some pretty important questions. They're asking you, who are you? How do others perceive you, and who do you want to be.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

In your TED Talk? You say that a lot of people ask you, how can I stop cringing at my past self? But it sounds like you would say, like, no, don't.

[Aaron Chen]

Yeah, more like the honest answer is you're just, you're not going to. And there's reason to think that, like, if you're not cringing at things you did 10, five years ago last week, then you're not growing as a person. I mean, as corny as that sounds, I really believe that you should look back on what you did 10 years ago and think, oh gosh, that's not me anymore.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

But look how far I've come.

[Aaron Chen]

But look how far I've come. Yeah, exactly. I see the missteps there. I'm not that person anymore.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Do you think allowing yourself to think about those cringy moments more often is a good ide? Like, would you recommend to someone going on their own version of the mortified podcast, like, essentially giving themselves cringe exposure therapy?

[Aaron Chen]

I mean, yeah, you don't even need to like give yourself cringe exposure therapy. It's more just like, like, yeah, like kind of like letting it in as it happens. Like, you can seek it out and do the extreme versions if you want to, but I think that it just, it just happens every day. I was just thinking about this a few weeks ago. I was recently laid off from my media job and I ran into. Thank you. I ran into some people from my old work at a party and we said hello and then just no one knew what to say and I just bolted. Like 30 seconds later, I just left. And in the weeks afterwards, I was thinking about that a lot and what that maybe reveals about, I don't know, some sort of gap between who I am and maybe who I want to be, which is my kind of whole theory about what cringing reveals. I mean, I would like to be someone who isn't embarrassed about getting laid off. Especially right now. There isn't anything embarrassing about that. But I think bolting from that party kind of signaled that I was embarrassed that I wanted to hide. And I thought about that a lot for weeks. And I decided that I just, it wasn't useful to, to just like hide myself away. So I ended up posting this like kind of lengthy thing on LinkedIn. Talk about a cringe. Cringe plays LinkedIn is pretty cringe, but it went like kind of viral. It got like, I think like 85k impressions.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Oh my God.

[Aaron Chen]

Well, after 15 plus years in media, layoffs finally came for me. As of last month, I'm no longer with. In the long term, I'd like to find something full time in media or marketing. In the short term, I've been taking on freelance and project based work. Basically, you need some words. I'm your girl. Sorry to brag, but I was also quite good at it. In my first year at BDG, my contributions helped increase ad sales by more than 125%. So how can I help? Let me know if you or someone you know needs an experienced writer, editor or content strategist, especially in the health and wellness space. Thanks. I got a ton of great opportunities from that. Despite the fact that like while I was posting it, I was just feeling so. Just embarrassed and self conscious. I was literally like sweating buckets, you know, wanting to push out that embarrassment but instead kind of sitting with it and kind of feeling like, what could this teach me? And what, like what could happen if I just didn't let this feeling dictate my behavior. It still feels like a shameful, embarrassing thing, but it just isn't. And I think that this for me these last couple of months has been a really practical way to kind of like engage with this feeling and engage with like the kind of connection that can come from it. I got so many people who like reached out and were like, oh my gosh, I've been there, let's get coffee. You know, and I'm so glad, I'm so glad I did it.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

If you could go back to that party, then would you react differently?

[Aaron Chen]

I mean, I wish I hadn't bolted. I wish I had just like, you know, stayed. I mean, the girls I ran into are like great people that I really liked and I still really like. And yeah, I wish I had just kind of taken a breath and just had a conversation. Yeah.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Do you think they realized it was awkward?

[Aaron Chen]

I think everybody did really?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Because I always wonder, like, why not be like, well, this is awkward, but I'm really glad I ran into you guys.

[Aaron Chen]

I know I probably should have reread my own book and done something like that.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

That was journalist Melissa Dahl. Her book is called A Theory of Awkwardness. You can see her full talk and a big thank you to our friends at the show and podcast. Mortified. Finally, we want to talk about one of the most awkward conversations there can be. The one about sex. Which means this next segment needs a warning that we're about to hear a frank talk about sex and consent. It's a topic that sex educator Aaron Chen thinks we need to be more blase about. It's actually an approach she learned from her middle school sex ed teacher. Here she is on the TED stage in 2017.

[G]

Ms. Marziali had just taught the school curriculum for sex ed, which is basically STIs. STIs. This is what a condom looks like. And to wrap up the unit, she handed out these white pieces of paper and she told us we can ask any other questions we had. She told us we can ask anything we wanted. Well, I remember when she started reading out those questions, the entire room just took a collective breath and we waited for her reactions. When she knew the answer, she answered it. And when she didn't, or more like, I suspect, didn't know how to answer the question, she simply looked up and calmly said, I'm going to find out and come back to you tomorrow. Just like that. Like, we'd asked her a question about math and she needed to go look it up in the answers book before coming back to us. While the facts that Ms. Marziali shared were interesting, what made a profound difference was the way she shared those facts. She was normal about them. And what I mean by normal is she gave us permission. Permission to be curious, permission to inquire, permission to treat sex like it's normal. This is about our sexual wellness, which plays a big role in how we feel in our own skin, in our sense of who we are. It plays a role in how intimate we are in our relationships, in our marriages. It even impacts our overall health, both physically and mentally. So for the rest of this talk, I invite you to take a deep breath and just focus on yourself. Soak up the sex talk. Which would be a pretty rare thing to do, wouldn't it? Because for the most part, we are all so scared about what other people think when it comes to sexuality. We hardly ever talk openly and honestly about it. Now, how would this apply to your lives. When it comes to sexual, it's pretty hard to imagine what it'll feel like if it's not awkward or embarrassing. Kind of hard to imagine. So to help you bridge that gap, imagine your favorite dessert. Now imagine you've been craving that dessert for an entire day or an entire week. Now imagine finally taking that first bite. Those are pleasurable sensations. And interesting fact. Research conducted on our brain patterns show that when it comes to our pleasure response to food and to sex, similar parts of our brains are stimulated. So biologically, the way we want, consume and learn from our food experiences is actually very similar to the way we desire, initiate, and complete our sexual experiences. Yet with food, we are all so comfortable and confident with our own preferences. Like, you know, if you like dark chocolate or not, you know if you love durian or if you hate durian. And for those who don't know what durian is, think escargot or chop liver. The point is, no one is on the fence about whether or not you like or dislike these types of foods. Right? And we're okay expressing that. So how do we get so comfortable with food? We've had practice. We gave ourselves permission to be curious, to inquire, and to treat it as a normal part of life. Wouldn't it be a relief to be able to do the same with sex? And that's what I want you to walk away with today. If Smartiali probably didn't think that by answering those questions the way she did, she would have made that kind of a difference for me. But she did. So be aware of how you choose to engage others when it comes to conversations about sexual. And if today's conversation sparks something for you, then share what you learned about yourself. We need more, Ms. Marzialis in this world. And finally know that it's going to take time. But it is possible. I know this not only from my own work, but also personally with my family. When I first told my parents about my passion and my desire to work in this area, they did not love the idea. Imagine traditional Taiwanese parents in their 60s. My father actually told me that he might have to lie to his friends about what it is that I do. And for close to a year, every single phone call was spent trying to talk me out of it. But through conversation and over time, they've come around to the point where my mother now shares things with me that I never would have thought I would hear from my own mother. And I get to contribute my expertise to her. So whether it's food or another area in your life. You know how to have these conversations. You know how to trust your body. It's just that with sex, we're all playing catch up. What matters at the end of life is our experience of life in our bodies, in our relationships. So don't go through life terrified of asking others about durians. Living a sexually intelligent life is worth it. And just remember the secret ingredient of permission. Thank you.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

That was sex and relationship counselor Erin Chen. You can see her full [e-mail] thank you so much for listening to our show. So awkward. I hope we made you squirm at least a couple times. This episode was produced by James Delahousy, Katie Monteleone, Matthew Cloutier and Harsha Nahada. It was edited by Sanaz Meshkin. Our production staff at NPR also includes Rachel Faulkner White and Fiona Guerin. Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. Our audio engineers were Kwesi Lee, Gilly Moon and David Greenberg. Our theme music was written by Ramtin Arablouei. Our partners at TED are Chris Anderson, Helen Walters, Alejandra Salazar and Daniela Balarazzo. I'm Manoush Zamorodi and you've been listening to the TED Radio Hour from npr.

[Liana Fink]

This message comes from NPR sponsor TED Talks Daily, a podcast from ted. TED Talks Daily brings you a new talk every day. Learn about the ideas shaping humanity, from connecting with your inner monologue to finding out if aliens exist. Listen to TED Talks Daily.

[Advertiser]

This message comes from Greenlight. Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely and invest. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight. Get started risk [e-mail] NPR this message comes from Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right. They offer premium wireless plans for less and all plans include high speed data, unlimited talk and text, and nationwide coverage. See for [e-mail] Switch.