TED Radio Hour — "The Art of Choosing What to Do"

Date: October 17, 2025
Host: Manoush Zomorodi
Guests: Ann Laura Selye, Oliver Burkeman, Ayelet Fishbach

Overview

In this episode, Manoush Zomorodi explores how we shape our days and make choices about what to do with our time. Drawing insights from psychology, behavioral science, and personal experience, the episode challenges traditional notions of productivity, control, and motivation. From structuring time by the clock versus by events, to contemplating the finite nature of life, and uncovering the science of motivation, listeners are invited to reconsider what truly counts and how to live meaningfully.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How We Experience and Structure Time

Guest: Ann Laura Selye, Professor of Behavioral Sciences, HEC Paris

• Time Styles:
  • Clock Time: Scheduling activities according to the clock; activities are independent and interchangeable.
  • Event Time: Moving from one activity to the next based on events or inner rhythms; activities are interdependent, forming a “necklace” where one leads to another.
• Impact on Psychology:
  • Clock timers tend to externalize control, believing more in fate or chance.
  • Event timers see themselves as more in control, linking their choices to environmental cues and their own agency.
• Consequences for Well-Being:
  • Clock timers are less able to savor positive experiences and feel less happiness than event timers.
  • The rise of clock time in society has made people view the world as more chaotic and disconnected ("Clock timers believe the world is more chaotic than event timers." — Ann Laura Selye, 07:18).
  • The real reason people rely on the clock might be because they're less connected to their internal emotions, using the clock as a crutch.

Quote:
"Clock timers believe the world is more chaotic than event timers. Now, if you think that's bad, there's actually worse. We know that when people locate control externally rather than internally, it tends to make them feel less happy."
— Ann Laura Selye (07:18)

• Practical Takeaway:
  • Both time styles are useful; clock time is better for tasks requiring punctuality, while event time is preferable for enjoyment or creativity, especially with children.
  • Awareness of the two approaches allows for flexibility in choosing what fits each context best.

Quote:
"The takeaway is think that these two things exist and embrace what feels better for you at a given time."
— Ann Laura Selye (13:01)

Timestamps:

• Selye's time style examples: 01:04–03:04
• Implications for happiness and control: 04:39–11:21
• Practical advice on time styles: 11:21–13:03

2. Facing Finitude and the Fallacy of Perfect Productivity

Guest: Oliver Burkeman, author of "4000 Weeks" and "Meditations for Four Weeks to Embrace Your Limitations and Make Time for What Counts"

• Personal Journey:
  • Started as an anxious journalist fixated on optimizing productivity, only to discover that perpetual methods and systems never provided real satisfaction.
  • The realization: the pursuit of the perfect system is often a distraction from facing life's finite nature.

Quote:
"Our lives are short. Specifically, they're finite, right? ...But we spend a lot of time, a lot of effort trying to avoid it, trying not to think about it, trying to feel less limited than we are."
— Oliver Burkeman (17:49)

• On Making Decisions:
  • Time is fundamentally limited; every decision is an act of embracing one possibility and letting go of countless others, which can be freeing once you accept it.
  • Indecision is a way of postponing the pain of choices, but making decisions is empowering.

Quote (Reading from Book):
"Making a decision is the defining act of the limit embracing life... Indeicision can feel so oddly comfortable. It's a form of postponement, a temporary avoidance of the painful sacrifices involved."
— Oliver Burkeman (21:46)

• Encouraging Conscious Living:
  • Living with openness to risk and embracing the spirit of decisions is more important than their specific outcomes.

Quote:
"It's sort of ultimately most important that you lived with sort of openness to that possibility, that you took the plunge, that you bet on yourself instead of against yourself, and that you sort of stepped into life in its most intense kind of engagement."
— Oliver Burkeman (26:25)

• Society and Technology—AI and Efficiency:
  • AI and convenience culture can push us toward sameness and eliminate the friction that made certain activities meaningful.

Quote:
"Convenience... has this repeating tendency to involve getting rid of not just the effort that we wanted to save, but also the very kinds of friction and engagements that made the thing worth doing in the first place."
— Oliver Burkeman (37:48)

• Aging and Acceptance:
  • With experience, anxiety about doing and having it all tends to decrease, and the peace comes more from acceptance than from control.
  • The problem isn’t failing to achieve perfect mastery over life, but believing it's ever possible.

Quote (Epigraph):
"What makes it unbearable is your mistaken belief that it can be cured."
— Charlotte Joko Beck, quoted by Oliver Burkeman (43:18)

Timestamps:

• Burkeman's backstory and realizations: 16:02–19:49
• Embracing decision-making: 21:22–26:12
• On social pressure, AI, and uniqueness: 31:29–41:39
• Acceptance, Zen, and purposeful limitation: 42:35–44:58

3. Motivation, Willpower, and Avoiding Burnout

Guest: Ayelet Fishbach, Professor of Behavioral Science and Marketing, University of Chicago

• Core Insight:
  • You don’t "own" motivation; it isn’t about being strong, but about being wise in managing situations and thoughts.
• Practical Strategies:
  • Change your circumstances or your mindset to stimulate motivation.
  • Set goals that are intrinsically motivating, not just obligations.
  • Recognize and shorten the “middle slump”—motivation is high at the beginning and end, but dips in the middle. Creating shorter cycles (weekly/daily) can help maintain motivation.
  • Anticipate temptations and prepare for them in advance.
  • Social connections act as lighthouses for motivation; we hold goals for others and vice versa.

Quote:
"Motivation is not about being strong. It's about being wise... You change the circumstances or the way you think about the circumstances."
— Ayelet Fishbach (45:36)

• The Role of Community:
  • Motivation is supported by those around you — friends, family, colleagues.

Timestamps:

• Fishbach’s TED segment: 45:36–52:34

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• "When people locate control externally rather than internally, it tends to make them feel less happy."
  — Ann Laura Selye (07:18)

• "To make a decision... is to take ownership of the situation. Instead, it takes a little willpower. But the reward is usually an immediate boost of motivation."
  — Oliver Burkeman (21:46–22:55, as he reads from his book)

• "Motivation is not about being strong. It is about being wise, and now we are all wiser. Thank you."
  — Ayelet Fishbach (52:09)

• "The problem is not that you haven't figured everything out, got on top of everything, reached a position of perfect control. The only problem is thinking that it was ever on the cards for you to do that."
  — Oliver Burkeman (43:18)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:26–04:09: Introduction, why time structure matters, event vs. clock time
• 06:35–13:03: Selye on how time styles affect control, causality, and happiness
• 16:02–20:30: Burkeman's personal journey with productivity and realization of finiteness
• 21:22–26:12: Importance of decision-making and permission
• 31:29–41:39: The effect of technology and AI on meaning and uniqueness
• 42:35–44:58: Acceptance and the myth of total control
• 45:36–52:34: Fishbach’s science of motivation, intrinsic goals, middles, and social support
• 52:34–end: Episode close

Episode Takeaways

• The way we structure and perceive our time implicitly shapes how we view causality, control, and happiness.
• Clock time and event time both have value, but knowing when to use each is key for well-being.
• Embracing the limitations of time — that we cannot do everything — brings richness and meaning to life; indecision is itself a mask for avoidance.
• Making conscious choices and accepting risks is part of a fulfilling life; there’s no way to “opt out” of choosing.
• Motivation isn’t innate or a matter of willpower alone; it’s about designing your environment and mindset wisely. Community plays a crucial role.
• Technology and AI offer convenience but threaten to dull the richness born of human friction, uniqueness, and lived engagement.

For listeners who want to rethink how they shape their days, this episode encourages a shift away from relentless optimization and toward meaningful, intentional choices — with a healthy appreciation for life’s inherent limits and the relationships and moments that matter most.