The price of creativity

Summary

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The Price of Creativity

TED Radio Hour (NPR) | Host: Manoush Zomorodi | Aired: November 7, 2025

Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, host Manoush Zomorodi explores the changing landscape of creativity and what it costs—personally and economically—to live as a creator in our current era. Speaking to entrepreneur, musician, and Kickstarter co-founder Yancy Strickler, and drawing from TED Talks (notably by Sir Ken Robinson), the episode traces the origins, economics, and future of creativity. It highlights the explosion of the creator economy, the accompanying challenges, and Strickler’s proposal for a new legal structure to support creators.

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Main Topics & Key Insights

1. Origins of Modern Creativity (00:19–06:14)

• Historical Roots:

  • Yancy Strickler discusses how creativity, often seen as an eternal human trait, only became a national focus in the US after WWII.
  • The government, fearing conformity and “homogenous” culture, intentionally promoted individuality as a counterbalance to totalitarianism (01:56).

• Research and Education:

  • 1940s–1960s: Government and social scientists studied artists and engineers to isolate the “internal drive to make things better.”
  • The idea emerged: creativity could be taught—a “democratic form of genius” for everyone, not just rare visionaries.
  • Science and tech education bills (1958) and the rise of brainstorming and creative writing in schools cemented creativity as a core American value.
  • Quote (Yancy Strickler, 03:08):

    “They began to theorize that… if they could teach people this notion of creativity, then creativity would be this democratic form of genius that anyone could access.”

• Cultural Implications:

  • The focus on nurturing creativity led to today’s culture, where “more kids want to be creators than anything else.”
  • Quote (Strickler, 05:22):

    “What I see is not some momentary blip, but I see the payoffs of investments that were made 70 years ago.”

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2. Creator Economy: Growth, Opportunity, and Precarity (06:14–14:28, 15:23–21:35)

• Explosion of Output, Lack of Support:

  • Despite unprecedented creative production, there’s a lack of stable support for creators.
  • Quote (Strickler, 06:55):

    “More people than ever, creating more demand for content than ever, yet less support systems than ever.”

• Kickstarter and Crowdfunding:

  • Strickler narrates how he co-founded Kickstarter to empower creators to raise funds directly from fans rather than gatekeepers (08:20–10:46).
  • Quote (Strickler, 09:25):

    “It just dramatically opened the doors… no longer were we lining up in front of these singular gatekeepers.”

• The Content Creator’s Dilemma:

  • Stories from creators like Shivani Shah illustrate the grind: monetization demands constant content, leading to burnout and economic instability (16:09–17:29).
  • Only 4% of creators make over $100k per year; most rely on unstable brand deals or meager platform payouts (17:29).

• Professionalization of Hobbies:

  • The line between hobby and profession has blurred; many hope to turn passions into income, but the reality is far more complex and often overwhelming (20:02).
  • Quote (Strickler, 20:18):

    “The act of being an artist… is not as simple as it used to be. Because now you have many jobs… [it’s] an always on grind. And there’s not a lot of peer relationship…”

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3. Strickler’s Proposal: The Artist Corporation (21:35–33:14)

• Need for a New Legal Structure:

  • Existing models (LLC, S corp) don’t serve unique needs of creative workers—sharing IP, profits, and managing funding is complex (22:09).

• Introducing the ‘A Corp’:

  • An ‘A Corp’ would operate as a new legal entity designed for creators, requiring majority artist ownership and the ability to take both non-profit and for-profit funding (21:48–23:14).
  • Empowers creators to collectively own their intellectual property, manage revenue sharing, and negotiate better deals.
  • Quote (Strickler, 23:20):

    “The A corp just might be the door that opens up a new path to prosperity for creative people.”

• Example: The Music Industry:

  • Instead of bands signing exploitative contracts, groups could negotiate joint ventures, maintaining ownership and sharing upside with partners—a shift from “service provider” status (24:51–27:40).

• Creator Enthusiasm:

  • Creators surveyed prioritize stability, low-cost formation, clear IP, and easy profit sharing (29:21). Early pilots are underway in Colorado, with legislative support, aiming for nationwide adoption if successful (30:32).

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4. The Challenge and Philosophy of Creative Life (33:14–36:21)

• Ownership and Value:
  • Artist corporations can give creators real leverage, acknowledging creativity as valued capital—not just as content for others’ platforms or brands.
• Vulnerabilities in the System:
  • Today's creators are subject to restrictive “360 deals” from investors that can be exploitative (32:15–33:00).

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5. Creativity vs. Institutions and AI (36:21–48:14)

• Educational Structures:

  • TED legend Sir Ken Robinson’s critique: schools often stifle creativity by penalizing mistakes—by adulthood, original thinking is eroded (36:21–38:04).
  • Quote (Robinson, 37:01):

    “If you’re not prepared to be wrong, you will never come up with anything original.”

• AI – Threat or Tool?

  • Debate: AI could dilute creative originality (“algorithmic slop”) or supercharge creation by automating rote tasks. Strickler argues the future is “personality and audience relationship”—what can’t be automated (39:17–40:17).
  • Quote (Strickler, 40:17):

    “It’s personality and its relationship with audience that’s going to distinguish what stands out…”

• Era of ‘Neo-Modern’ Creativity:

  • Strickler sees a historical dividing line—before and after AI—between “classical” human-made culture, and today’s collaborative, tech-augmented production (41:36–41:38).
  • Despite pessimism about platforms and algorithms, he remains optimistic about “Internet powered people” driving innovation.

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6. Reality Check and Personal Fulfillment (44:12–50:55)

• The Risks of Commoditization:
  • Not everyone wants—or needs—to monetize their art. For some, creative expression is simply joyful, not commercial (46:46–47:25).
• Exploitation and Structural Change:
  • Real risk isn’t in more money entering the creative field, but in creators failing to capture the value of their own work—systems change can address this (47:25).
• Strickler’s Personal Motivation:
  • For Strickler and many others, creative life means balancing passion projects and financial reality; the dream is to create systems that make this journey less precarious for future generations (48:30–50:55).
  • Quote (Strickler, 49:38):

    “My life is about lifting up the potential of creative people… I take that with an extreme amount of responsibility and love, being able to support my people.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Creativity… could be this democratic form of genius that anyone could access.”
  — Yancy Strickler (03:08)
• “More kids want to be creators than anything else… creative expression and culture are at the center of everything.”
  — Yancy Strickler (04:22)
• “More people than ever, creating more demand for content than ever, yet less support systems than ever.”
  — Yancy Strickler (06:55)
• “Only 4% of content creators made more than $100,000 per year… most of those earnings come from brand deals or pitching products.”
  — Manoush Zomorodi (17:29)
• “An artist corporation… would be an entity that represents creative businesses… to validate creative work.”
  — Yancy Strickler (22:09)
• “If you’re not prepared to be wrong, you will never come up with anything original.”
  — Sir Ken Robinson (37:01)
• “Our work is being exploited in a way that doesn’t actually reflect the value we create. And that is something that’s changeable.”
  — Yancy Strickler (47:25)
• “My life is about lifting up the potential of creative people… and for me, to be able to talk, support an artist in putting out a work—few things better.”
  — Yancy Strickler (49:38)

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Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Time Range | |----------------------------------------|-------------------------------| | Main theme introduction | 00:16–01:19 | | Yancy Strickler—History of creativity | 01:19–06:14 | | Creator economy rise/challenges | 06:14–14:28 and 15:23–21:35 | | Kickstarter / Crowdfunding | 08:20–10:46 | | Shivani Shah's content creator story | 16:09–17:29 | | Economics of content creation | 17:29–21:35 | | The Artist Corporation (A Corp) | 21:35–33:14 | | Legal/financial challenges | 24:51–33:14 | | Sir Ken Robinson on schools/creativity | 36:21–38:40 | | AI and the future of creativity | 39:17–46:46 | | The personal cost and value of creating| 46:46–50:55 |

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Episode Tone & Style

The episode blends the thoughtful inquiry of a TED Talk with the personal and practical perspective of entrepreneurs and creators. It is frank about financial realities, open-minded about technological change, nostalgic about art for art’s sake, and ultimately optimistic that new structures—and collective action—can secure a creative, sustainable future.

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Summary

Through history, personal stories, and forward-looking proposals, “The Price of Creativity” illustrates both the explosion of creative expression and the unresolved economic challenges facing modern creators. Yancy Strickler’s vision of an empowering legal structure (the A Corp) seeks to tip the balance—honoring creative work’s value, offering stability, and keeping artists in control. The episode frames creativity not just as self-expression, but as crucial to culture, economy, and even democracy, posing new questions about money, meaning, and the future of human creativity in a world full of algorithms.

Transcript

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[Minouche Zamorodi]

This is the TED Radio Hour. Each week, groundbreaking TED Talks.

[Yancy Strickler]

Our job now is to dream big.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Delivered at TED conferences to bring about the future we want to see around the world to understand who we are. From talks, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you.

[Yancy Strickler]

You just don't know what you're gonna find challenge you. We truly have to ask ourselves, like.

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Why is it noteworthy and even change you.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I literally feel like I'm a different person. Yes. Do you feel that way? Ideas worth spreading From TED and npr. I'm Minouche Zumarotti. It feels like everywhere you look, people are making and crafting and writing and taking photos to share online.

[Podcast Listener / Voice Commenter]

Today is my official three year anniversary.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

As a content creator. So I make my own clothes. I love this dress.

[Shivani Shah]

I'm building a tiny home for my sister.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

But where is all this creativity coming from?

[Yancy Strickler]

A word like creativity feels eternal, as natural as air. It's like the base level of all of life.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

This is entrepreneur, musician and writer Yancy Strickler. He's a sort of creativity history buff.

[Yancy Strickler]

Well, a common mistake we all make is assuming that the world around us has always been this way. And this is even the case when it comes to ideas that are as bedrock as art and creativity.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

But in the 1940s, the US government started taking these fields very seriously and.

[Yancy Strickler]

In part from Department of Defense research and funding. Post World War II, people were worried about American society becoming too homogenous. And the US was worried about facing off against the Soviet Union. And so they needed individuality to contend with this totalitarian society.

[Sir Ken Robinson]

The things about us are made to express our own free spirits and desires.

[Yancy Strickler]

So the Defense Department and some social scientists began to study this question of what to do about it. What do we do about this issue of conformity? On come the developments of ideas in.

[Sir Ken Robinson]

Pace with the emphatic decisions of the American people as to what they want.

[Yancy Strickler]

This is when there were more white collar workers than blue collar workers for the first time. And they ended up proposing a concept of something called creativity, which they discovered after studying artists and engineers, in particular engineers who pulled all nighters. And they wanted to understand what made them work, what motivated them to do that.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

They gave them everything from Rorschach tests to the Myers Briggs personality test.

[Yancy Strickler]

And they found that these people had this internal drive to make things better. They had to. They're just driven in that way. So they began to theorize that what if they could teach people to develop the same skill? They could teach people this notion of creativity, Then creativity would be this democratic form of genius that anyone could access.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

From there, the push for creative thinking took off. A 1958 bill promoted science and technology education specifically to get kids to think differently in the name of national defense.

[Yancy Strickler]

In the 60s, creative writing began to enter American schools, brainstorming, open, open ended thinking sort of practices. And these were intentionally created as a way to teach children how to be creative. Developing creativity was seen as a strategic goal of America that has continued ever since to where someone like me, I think of myself as a second generation creative American, where I went to public schools, where I was taught all of these things. And, you know, creativity is very much a deep part of my life.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Much of this history is chronicled in the 2023 book, the cult of Creativity by Samuel L. Franklin.

[Yancy Strickler]

It was very strange to think that there was this origin to creativity, that it had this military, industrial purpose that was made to make people more productive and to make things that were more impactful. But the more I sat with it, the more I actually think it's beautiful that this is something that originated through a social scientist, that people had the sensitivity to ask and to study how other people stayed connected and loved what they did. To ask. What makes those distinct voices distinct? How could we have more of them? How could we teach that, in this phrase, of a democratic form of genius? And so when I look at the world now, where more kids want to be creators than anything else, where creative expression and culture are at the center of really everything in America. It's like how politics works, how the economy works, how everything works.

[Sir Ken Robinson]

Live from New York, it's Saturday night.

[Yancy Strickler]

What I see is not some momentary blip, but I see the payoffs of investments that were made 70 years ago. We are on a continued climb in this long process of America embracing creative culture as one of its founding core ideals and one of the things that really makes America distinct.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Can you say E T?

[Yancy Strickler]

E T?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Run, Forrest, run.

[Yancy Strickler]

And so when I look at the 21st century and I think, what are the dominant forces that are shaping the world around us now? It's the Internet, it's AI and it is also creativity.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I'm about to hit a million followers on Instagram, which is absolutely nuts, Finishing off my first draft probably in the next two weeks, boosting my original song. So maybe I can do this instead of going to college.

[Yancy Strickler]

Creative problem solving, cultural solutions, design oriented answers thinking, all of that. This is a long term investment made by the state, made by past generations that has worked its way through and has now produced just an absolute explosion of output and production.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I use this 1960s sewing patent.

[Podcast Listener / Voice Commenter]

Welcome back to my monthly Breakfast Club series.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I'll need either book cloth or a substitute like leather. I frequently use this one. But even though Americans are consuming more creative content than ever, you believe the economics are not keeping up. It's not all wild ideas and roses. There's a big problem.

[Yancy Strickler]

That's right. You know, right now we find ourselves more people than ever, creating more demand for content than ever, yet less support systems than ever. And there's this very acute pressure that every artist and creative person feels right now of like, I feel like I'm falling behind. I don't even know what to do, you know, and what is this world that seems like it's sort of racing away from me?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

In an era when anyone with a phone can call themselves a creator and half of all young people say they hope to become an influencer, how are they turning all this output into a paycheck? And what does all this commoditized creativity mean for art, money and culture? Well, over the next two episodes, we're digging in. First, Kickstarter co founder Yancey Strickler explains why capitalism needs to transition to accommodate this new marketplace. And then next week, Gen Z linguist and TikTok creator Adam Alexik shows us how algorithms are reshaping language, attention and what we value. Together, they'll help us understand the creator economy. Let's get back to Yancy. In the early 2000s, he was living in New York, working as a music critic and running a tiny record label when he met a guy named Perry Chen.

[Yancy Strickler]

Like me, he was a creative person, always trying to get projects off the ground. And he had wanted to throw a concert but didn't have the money to do it and thought, what if he could just propose the idea for the concert online, People could pre purchase tickets and the show would only happen if it sold out. And if there was enough interest, no big deal, he wouldn't be out the money and the people together could decide. And this idea really resonated with me because at the time, as a creative person, to get support for your projects, you had to go pitch like a proper company of some kind or some board of approval that you needed. There wasn't that direct path where you could just go out into the world with your own ideas. And the idea of letting us as fans have a voice in what we wanted to see. And the idea that we as artists and creative people wouldn't need to ask for one person's permission, but instead convince people of the merit of our vision, that just seemed way more fun and more interesting.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It ended up taking them plus a third co founder years to create a platform that could let people crowdfund their projects. They called their site and Kickstarter.

[Yancy Strickler]

In 2009, Kickstarter went live. And the very first week a project was successfully funded. And it wasn't an overnight success. But amazingly for us, from the moment the site was there, people got it. People understood what it was there for. They saw it as a type of a game. It had an energy like everything we could have dreamed really happened. And for creative people, it just dramatically opened the doors to where no longer were we all lining up in front of these singular gatekeepers. But instead we really had the freedom to go out the way we wanted with our own projects and ideas. And it just opened the floodgates to now a much bigger world that we call the creator economy and a whole bunch of other stuff. That project was really one of the first that showed what the Internet could do that really put a lot of trust and a lot of power in the hands of individuals versus the institutions and, you know, exceeded all of our expectations, but really came from our own experiences as creative people ourselves.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Musicians got their albums funded by groups of friends, authors crowdfunded their new novels. Even huge companies like Peloton and Allbirds got their start on Kickstarter.

[Yancy Strickler]

At this point, I think it's $9 billion or something like that that's changed hands through the platform.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

In 2017, Yancy stepped down as CEO.

[Yancy Strickler]

And I returned to being a full time writer author. I wrote a book and was leading a community and was doing everything I thought I wanted and had thousands of people gathered around ideas I was really passionate about.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

But he struggled to figure out how to make this group of creative people who were making books and all kinds of other creative products financially viable. He didn't want to start a non profit or another big company.

[Yancy Strickler]

I didn't want to be at the top of a pyramid. I wanted to be a part of something with other people. And I really struggled to see how to do that. How do I as a creative person have peers, you know, do I have to start a band? Is it like a collective? But a collective seems scary. Collective seems like I'm supposed to give up my identity. Like I don't want to do that. And so I ended up thinking about the model of an indie record label where, you know, a way a label can sort of represent a scene or a sound or a place, and it can bring a lot of different people together around that. And what's cool about a label is like by being a part of a label, you're not giving up your individual voice, but you are just benefiting by being a part of something larger than you. So I started thinking, could you reimagine something like that not around music, but around any sort of creative form where people who had a common purpose or common taste, people who wanted mutual support, they could have a structure that let them do that and let them easily share money, share audiences, and just not.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Be trapped on their own in a minute. More about the answer that Yancy came up with and how he thinks it could be the way to give creative people the power and money they deserve.

[Yancy Strickler]

In a world where 48% of Americans report having a personal creative practice, in a world where art and culture has gone from sideline to like mainstage, it just creates a very different set of conditions.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Today on the show, Part one of the Creator Economy, I'm Minouche Zamorodi, and you're listening to NPR's Ted Radio Hour. We'll be right back. This message comes from Superhuman, the AI productivity suite that gives you superpowers everywhere you work, with Grammarly, mail and coda coming together. You get proactive help across your workflow so you can outsmart the chaos experience. AI that proactively helps you go from to do to done faster. Unleash your Superhuman potential today. Learn [e-mail] podcast that's superhuman.com podcast. This message comes from AT&T. There's nothing like knowing someone's in your corner, especially when it really counts, like when your neighbor shovels your driveway after a snowstorm or your friend saves you the last slice of pizza. AT&T has connectivity you can depend on, or they'll proactively make it right. That's the AT&T guarantee. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com guarantee to learn more. AT and T connecting changes everything.

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[Minouche Zamorodi]

It's the TED Radio Hour from npr. I'm Minouche Zamorodi. On the show today, the Creator Economy with writer and entrepreneur Yancy Strickler. So earlier Yancy explained the origins of how we think of creativity today and why more and more people are trying to turn their creative pursuits into a source of income.

[Yancy Strickler]

I'm creating a super cool piece of.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Like brutalist inspired wall art from artists and musicians. I wrote a song and I'm posting it to Chef. Here's everything I made for an eight person birthday to fashion influencers.

[Yancy Strickler]

And let me teach you how to.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Style what you already have at the beginning of every Social media has turned creative expression into a whole new industry. Here's how I made about $7,000 going live on TikTok for one month. We talked to one content creator named Shivani Shah. She's a professional dancer who started posting videos during the pandemic.

[Shivani Shah]

I never really imagined it kind of from the lens of oh, I'm creating content. It was just, oh, I'm doing this thing that, you know, I'm stuck at home in Covid, I'm bored, I'm just gonna do this thing and post it.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

But her videos caught people's attention so she started collaborating with other dancers online.

[Shivani Shah]

It was just crazy because I was like, wow, all these people like really love what I'm doing and want to do it too.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And Shivani started to make money from the platforms and advertising. She built a brand with another dancer that they posted routines together, had in person classes, even went on tour.

[Shivani Shah]

Hi everyone, we are Desi Fuse. I'm Shivani and this is Ishani and.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

We both started shuffling in the summer. Now to keep the money coming in, Shivani has to keep posting and posting.

[Shivani Shah]

Yeah, I mean, when you start pursuing your creative hobby full time, sometimes you have to do work that you're not that excited by just to get like the paycheck from it. And other times the work you really want to pour into that may require more time and creativity isn't the work that's also paying you.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Today Shivani goes back and forth between full time Content creation and working in the corporate world so that she can have health insurance. It's a tenuous mix because it's not easy out there. As of 2023, only 4% of content creators made more than $100,000 per year, according to Goldman Sachs. Most of those earnings come from brand deals or pitching products. Other revenue comes from subscriptions or donations. But the creator economy is projected to grow to a $480 billion industry in the next few years. And Yancy Strickler believes it should just be easier for more people to take part in it.

[Yancy Strickler]

The act of people going online, expressing their talent, their hobby, their passion, doing so in a way for which they are directly paid by their audience, or in a TikTok era, that they're paid by a brand to endorse a product, or maybe they have a product they're selling in The Instagram or TikTok store is a part of what they do. That that overall space, that direct connection between a personality and an audience, is going to be a hugely significant area of the economy.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

But that doesn't mean that every person who considers themselves an artist or a creator should be paid for their work, does it?

[Yancy Strickler]

I mean, if someone aspires to be, I don't take that away from them. In our survey data, we find that about half of people have some sort of legal formation. So to me, that says half of these 3,000 plus people take it at least fairly seriously. Serious enough that they were willing to spend 500 bucks to do some paperwork, some arduous paperwork about it. So say half of people are doing that, and say the other half, yeah, maybe half would love that opportunity. Maybe the other half, they don't need it. It's more about singing at church or writing their newsletter. And it's just for fun. It's just for fun. But for the kids coming out, for the however many young people who want to be creators, or the fact that New York City's art schools have the highest application rates ever this past year, there's more energy going into this place. And so I think there is an expectation, a hope that it will bring probably greater economic benefits than is realistic. But in the future, I think that that might actually be the case.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

But I guess what's different now is that we see it as a potential profession, whereas we used to call that hobbies. Right. Like, is that what's changing in terms of this idea that, like, I love doing this and guess what? Maybe I can get paid for it too?

[Yancy Strickler]

Absolutely. You know, the Internet has made it so that we can turn our side hustles into forms of income, we can turn them into jobs. The challenge is that it's like the act of being an artist in a world like this is not as simple as it used to be. Because now you have many jobs. You're the artist, you're the marketer, you're the community manager, you're the order fulfiller. You're all of these things. Because we're ultimately running these small businesses around our hobbies. And this is where you see a lot of stats about burnout being something that's quite common even for people who are very successful at this, because it is very much a grind. It's an always on grind. And there's not a lot of peer relationship that's a part of it. And I'm the optimist who believes that these conditions can change. I believe that what's happening now is not a fad, it's not going away. That creative work is undervalued in our eyes. It's more valuable than people realize. And that a world in which creative people are reliant on these other players to support ourselves. Like we're always going to be vulnerable. And so we really need a system of our own.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And that brings us to Yancy's big idea. He's working on creating a new legal structure to offer artists protection and stability. He calls it an artist corporation or.

[Yancy Strickler]

A corp. That's right, yeah. And an artist corporation or an A corp is a proposal for a new legal type, a new corporate type that would be established through a new law. Law established at the state level. And the goal of an artist corporation would be to make a entity that represents creative businesses.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Right now, most of those businesses opt to be either an LLC or S.

[Yancy Strickler]

Corp. LLC is the most basic legal structure. It's a legal shield over the project, gives you some tax benefits. It doesn't have upside, doesn't have easy ownership sharing. Exactly. But it's sort of the base level most people use. It's also not the friendliest to use. But what an A corp does. A corp is designed from the ground up for artists and creative people. So to qualify for an acorp, you have to be making a creative output of some type. The project must be at least 51% owned and controlled by artists and creators, not outside investors. So you're pre qualifying in. And as an A, you can raise money from both for profit sources as well as receive nonprofit sources of funds. But overall, we're trying to create a structure that validates creative work. And that lets. Lets creative people participate in capitalism. Have entities be a real player the way that other economic players are in our culture today. And we think the A corp does that.

[Yancy Strickler (TED Stage Segment)]

The A corp just might be the door that opens up a new path to prosperity for creative people.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Here's Yancy Strickler on the TED stage.

[Yancy Strickler (TED Stage Segment)]

You could think of an A corp as like a company, but built for how creative people work. And we can imagine a band starts, and right from the beginning they have an A corp. So not just five individuals, they're people who collectively own an organization that has the power to own their intellectual property, their gear, their business. As they start to get paid, that money can automatically flow to each of the members according to preset amounts. And they could even set aside money to be saved for future projects in a treasury or pooling together with other artist corporations to get better health care or other benefits. As an artist corporation, they would also be able to receive both commercial revenue as well as nonprofit sources of funding. And if a label or a bigger commercial entity came along, rather than just selling the rights to their intellectual property, which has been customary until now, as an artist corporation, they can issue shares. So instead that entity would make an investment in the artist corporation, allowing it to be valued more highly and everyone to benefit if things went well.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

The music industry is a particularly interesting example because it used to be the case that a popular band could make a lot of money from selling records. But then of course, the Internet came along and now with streaming platforms, it is much harder for artists to make as much money, any money. So the old system no longer works, but we haven't figured out a new one.

[Yancy Strickler]

Well, we're definitely in the bardo. You know, there is a system that drove the 20th century of creative production that is still in power because it's holds the ownership rights to all of that work. But definitely its tools are less relevant today than they've been in the past. What's interesting is that say in music, music is a great case. If a band gets signed, traditionally they're given a standard record deal, which in all likelihood leaves the label owning the publishing and masters of their work. You know, they get some cut of it, they get a royalty, they start some LLC with advice from their manager, and maybe that's set up by someone else, and they end up not owning their actual work. They're getting paid out after all these deductions that they don't understand. And they're a part of a system where they have no agency whatsoever. And it's wild. Like for the capital sources of culture today for labels and studios, these bigger entities, artists are essentially service providers who create assets that these larger entities acquire and capitalize on. We're in a weird spot in the industry where it's capitalism for me, but not for the, not for the artist.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

So how would it work if a band created an A corp? How would the money get back to them? Should they have some success?

[Yancy Strickler]

Well, so as an A corp, they could preregister to say, okay, listen, our A owns the IP of music that we create. And so if a label wants to work with us, great. Well, they can negotiate with us either an investment for which they get the right to distribute this work, or you know, right now labels are dealing with individual artists who know that this is their only chance to make it and they're probably going to sign anything in front of them. But if you look at the way these same entities, these corporations interact with peer at corporations, what do they do? They make joint ventures. They make things where both parties share in the upside together. So in a world where the band has an A corp, I think their record would be like a joint venture co owned by the band and the label at which they are both putting in some money or labor to make it happen, in which they both own in the upside. It's not one where only the corporate entity, the larger corporate entity owns the upside and the artist just gets basically excess returns. But instead it's one of like real partnership and real ownership.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I mean, it's funny to me, I have talked to so many people who are so excited to start their own company because they, you know, want to get their work out into the world, whether that's art or writing or whatever it is. And then you're like, yeah, but then you also have to deal with accounting and paying your taxes and setting up the structures and all of those things that are not so fun. But are you finding that creative people are getting excited about this new tax structure?

[Yancy Strickler]

They are, they are. And this is being done hand in hand with artists. You know, I have amazing artist advisors and there's a lot of surveys and data from artists that are informing what we're doing. Hello, my name is Jackson Cooper and I live in Seattle, Washington.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

My name is Liz Alvarado and I live in Fort Collins, Colorado. We reached out to some of the artists who are excited about Yancey's plan for the A Corp.

[Yancy Strickler]

I'm a photographer, I'm a poet, I'm.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

A model, performer, singer, songwriter, and a Musician. I do a lot of collage.

[Yancy Strickler]

I am an illustrator and a writer.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Earlier this year, I left my tech design job to run my own multidisciplinary creative practice. I will say that one of the biggest challenges so far has been kind of battling people's preconceptions of design and what design is worth. The biggest struggle is stability, and the admin takes up so much time that it feels like I'm running five different businesses by myself. Pitching funding, managing rights. We are often trying to please whoever is responsible for giving us funding.

[Yancy Strickler]

You are at the mercy of a system that is only expecting you to produce, produce, produce. It's not a lack of talent that there aren't more successful working artists. It's a systemic issue. One thing I really stood out. We asked, like, what are your most desired features and the things people most want? Low cost of formation, simpler maintenance, clear ownership of IP and the ability to share profits with peers easily.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

That would mean I could build equity in my projects instead of just selling them off, and it would make a creative life feel much more sustainable in the long run. I think that an ACOR apartment could help artists spend more of their time creating and less time struggling against the systems that were never really set up for us. That was Jackson Cooper, Elizabeth Alvarado, Chris Lorenzen, Jade Fox, Craig Cloutier, Alina Braithwaite, Sabrina Liu, Michelle Dong, Maddie Bovard, and Hannah Celeste. So Yancey's ACOR idea isn't just a vision. He's hoping to make it a reality.

[Yancy Strickler]

Starting in Colorado, where we have real progress. I have a sponsor, a senator, state senator, who is sponsoring this bill. There is a bill underway that's being written and it's quite exciting to really try to operate at this level and to try to make an impact at the level of a public good that if this is successful, it creates a foundation for every artist from here on out, I think to have a potentially dramatically different outcome than anyone before.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Let's talk about those who see creator as a viable career opportunity. How would this change the way they become, I guess, adults who can pay their bills and have health insurance.

[Podcast Listener / Voice Commenter]

What.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

How do you picture it?

[Yancy Strickler]

Yeah, Well, I think, you know, right now, if you are, let's say you're someone who makes videos on TikTok or you. You post songs or whatever you do, you do something. My assumption is that you are just largely posting and going on your own for a while and you probably don't have any sort of legal structure now. What's happening now for TikTokers who do well is they have investors reaching out to them. What a lot of those deals are right now are 360deals. These are basically deals that sign all rights of anything you might make. And so they are overly restrictive.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Can you give me an example? What does that look like when you get a 360 deal?

[Yancy Strickler]

So it would say to you, okay, great, you know, X person, you're this makeup artist, you know, great, we, we believe in your channel. We want to help you scale up. We're going to put in, you know, $100,000 and, and now we own, you know, 25% of everything you make from here on.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I see.

[Yancy Strickler]

Versus saying in the way the A Corp is structured, you're asked to say, what ip, what work lives within this structure? So in that world, that makeup artist could more easily say, hey, this is a deal involving my podcast involving these things. It doesn't involve these other things. This is the structure that puts me in control.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It can sound like a lot of legalese, but put simply, the A Corp business structure would let creators own their content, get investors, and officially value creativity as capital.

[Yancy Strickler]

Rather than them being just an individual personality. They would be something that might have more heft, more market power to it.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

When we come back, how all this content creation is being affected by the age of AI. On the show today, the creator economy with entrepreneur Nancy Strickler. I'm Minouche Zamarodi and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR. Back in a minute. This message comes from AT&T. Whether you're calling your parents to say Happy Anniversary or checking in with your kids before bedtime, staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you can depend on or they'll proactively make it right. That's the AT&T guarantee. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com guarantee to learn more. AT&T connecting changes everything.

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[Minouche Zamorodi]

This message comes from DonorsChoose. Before there are leaders, there are learners. Before progress, there's potential students are showing up ready to grow, but they need fully stocked classrooms to thrive. Learn how to [e-mail] Don back to school it's the Ted Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Minouche Zumarodi. On the show today we are talking about the creator economy with entrepreneur Yancy Strickler. So earlier Yancy called himself a second generation creative, someone who grew up in 20th century America where individualism and creativity was nurtured. But not everyone agrees that that was the case.

[Sir Ken Robinson]

So I want to talk about education and I want to talk about creativity.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

This is education advisor sir ken Robinson. In 2006 he gave what has ended up being one of the most watched TED talks ever. It's called Do Schools Kill Creativity?

[Sir Ken Robinson]

My contention is that creativity now is as important in education as literacy and we should treat it with the same status.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

He started off by making the point that everyone is creative when they're very young and shared a story that I have heard repeated by many different people over the past 20 years. Maybe you have too. It's about a little girl in art class.

[Sir Ken Robinson]

She was six and she was at the back drawing. And the teacher said this little girl hardly ever paid attention. And in this drawing lesson she did. And the teacher was fascinated. She went over to her and she said, what are you drawing? And the girl said, I'm drawing a picture of God. And the teacher said, but nobody knows what God looks like. And the girl said, they will in a minute.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

For Robinson, being creative was the willingness to take risks, to immerse yourself in your imagination and make something that doesn't yet have a template. Something he felt that most adults ended up losing.

[Sir Ken Robinson]

Kids will take a chance if they don't know, they'll have a go. Am I right? They're not frightened of being wrong. Now, I don't mean to say that being wrong is the same thing as being creative. What we do know is if you're not prepared to be wrong. You will never come up with anything original if you're not prepared to be wrong. And by the time they get to be adults, most kids have lost that capacity. They have become frightened of being wrong.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

So ken died in 2020, just a few years before ChatGPT and other large language models became ubiquitous. And today, young people might wonder, why risk looking silly or even taking the time to draw a picture or write a poem when the algorithm can do it so much faster. Maybe better, Sir. Ken's final thoughts in his talk Sound Prescription.

[Sir Ken Robinson]

Our task is to educate their whole being so they can face this future. By the way, we may not see this future, but they will. And our job is to help them make something.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Creativity is at an inflection point. There are those who believe it's being crushed by AI, which turns everything into slop. Others who feel that if a computer can compose a symphony or design a logo in seconds, then maybe originality or no longer defines creativity. And still others who believe AI will give creativity a boost. But with or without AI, artist and entrepreneur Yancy Strickler believes we are entering humanity's most creative period yet.

[Yancy Strickler]

I think ultimately we're on a course of this being seen as the creative century, which is going to be the period of time in which humans approached problems and approached opportunities. From this creative mindset of seeking the culturally resonant solution, seeking the aesthetically beautiful or pleasing answer, bringing design principles and creative principles to apply in culture and in society and in business and economics, and the way that creative thinking has grown in our culture in a very explicit way is just something that is going to embed itself more deeply around all of society. In a world where technology and AI, all these things makes a lot of manufacturing and creation to be input, output. I think it's personality and its relationship with audience that's going to distinguish what stands out from what doesn't.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Are you talking about, you know, this sort of disillusionment in a lot of young people with late capitalism, this idea of the individual and sort of this yearning to come together in real life, to have a community quote, unquote of people?

[Yancy Strickler]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that culturally no one believes in social media. I think in a real way, we all know all social media is an adult. Everyone's doing it because they have to. And so as creative people, there's a lot of pessimism at the moment. There's pessimism about the world, there's pessimism about AI, there's pessimism about platforms, and I think that it's all true, but we also just have such amazing opportunities, creative people. There's just a lot more of us than there used to be where it's more competitive. Those are things that we're having to, to deal with. But I feel like there is a, a classical era of culture production that has closed. And I think probably that dividing line is AI. There's probably some dividing line where like classical culture production involves the period of time which we can say with certainty these things were largely made by human hands and human minds.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

That's classical, huh?

[Yancy Strickler]

That's classical. And then. And the neo modern will be what we're in now. This perpetual, now this confusing, confusing amalgamation of things that initially I felt judgmental about being kind of boomer of me. But in talking to the teenage tiktokers, I understand that they view these things as tools and that it's just something that's there for them and that people imposing their 20th century viewpoint of what truth and beauty is is probably not going to make it or win in this moment of time. But so I really think that the conditions of our escape are here, the tools are here. I just continue to have faith in, in the energy of the Internet. And if I look at what's happening in dark forests and group chats and these spaces, if I look at what people are able to achieve with light coordination and very little resources, it just makes me continue to be bullish on what Internet powered people can do.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Can we talk more about AI is. I guess I think of it in two ways. One is that IP or intellectual property that's going to be more difficult to figure out what that even is in the era of AI. And then I guess the other question is, are more people going to be turning to creative professions or trying to make money off their hobbies simply because AI will allegedly take some of the. That will have more time. There'll be less normal nine to five jobs.

[Yancy Strickler]

Yeah, well, I think the, I think that using AI because we have more time, I think that's real. And you know, I mean definitely, definitely AI is your production assistant. You know, AI is trying to fill those gaps of all the jobs that you as an artist have taken on in this modern world. I mean certainly people are going to try at that. I kind of think a world of AI is probably. We'll all get to have a more childlike experience with creative things. I think us interacting with say AI augmented creative tools is going to let us feel like we're good at anything. It just might be that no one else cares.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I guess I'm wondering, can we set expectations? There's a worry that I have that we picture this potentially. Let's stay away from dystopia for a sec and go towards Utopia, which is like, AI makes things incredibly accessible. I can finally put out the album that I want to put out because I can't compose music, but with AI, I can. Do you. Do you worry that there are people who maybe it's wishful thinking that they can pay their bills by becoming an artist or a creator? That when everyone is creator a creator, you know, what even is art? I mean, this gets more philosophical, but, you know, this idea that everyone thinks what I'm making is amazing and someone should pay me for it. There's something very, well, childlike.

[Yancy Strickler (TED Stage Segment)]

Yes.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

But also, I'm just worried that people think they don't have to work anymore. Yancy. How?

[Yancy Strickler]

Boom. I know how I think just because AI makes it easier doesn't mean the audience is going to care. And the audience still has a lot of power. And I mean, a lot of the AI creative demonstrations I see is like art for non artists. To me, it's like, why would I do that? That's the fun part. You're taking away the fun part. And I don't think it's going to replace what people choose to actively consume with the exception of, like, you know, things that become memes or just hits a lottery of the right moment in time. So I don't really worry about that. But I do have, you know, as a writer, for example, I do feel gatekeeper y when I see AI books, for example, like, you know, and I have a reaction of. I, like, I want that to be branded, that that's AI and that mine is not. And, you know, I feel something about that. And I think that maybe just what I have to believe is that, again, the audience will help determine the relative value of those things. But I also probably have to accept that someone 30 years younger than me is going to have a very different, very different, you know, way to come at this.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Yeah. I mean, because as I'm not a boomer, I'm a Gen Xer, and part of me wants to maintain that sort of don't sell out, don't be, you know, punk rock thing, which is, what if you just make art because you like making it? Why do we have to commoditize everything? Like the idea of people, you know, selling subscriptions so that you can be voyeurs on their life. Yes, I know I sound old by saying, like, I think that's kind of gross, but maybe that is just me being of my generation.

[Yancy Strickler]

Yeah, I mean, I see both. I see both sides, for sure. I am also Gen X and Nose. I mean, I hear people. And honestly, the worries people share are worries I share of, like, you know, I don't know if we want more money coming into our space. I don't know what it's going to do. I feel anxious about those things. But to me, an even bigger challenge is the fact that there is not enough support coming in now and that I believe that people aren't capturing the value of what they do. And actually our work is being exploited in a way that doesn't actually reflect the value we create. And that that is something that's changeable. And I think changing that will materially change the conditions and the lives of future generations of creative people.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And what about for you? I don't think you're even 50 yet. Right. But you've ended up spending a lot of your adult life experimenting with ways to align money with creativity. Do you think you'll keep doing that?

[Yancy Strickler]

Yeah, I mean, I'm 46 years old. I've been working in the creative fields my whole life. I mean, I grew up the son of a musician, and my dad was a country musician who didn't make it the way he dreamed, and instead he had day jobs. When I was growing up, he was a traveling waterbed salesman who played music on the weekends. And to me, like, the idea that a creative life is a mix of income sources and you do it out of love. And it's, you know, that was always. It was always so apparent to me. And that's also how my life has been lived. And, you know, what I can see is that there's more and more of us living our lives that way. And actually the opportunity, I think, is significant. And that experience of 48% of Americans who have a creative practice, who, some are trying to make money on it, some are a hobby, that there's a real benefit to taking that seriously. To me, all narratives are retrospective. Moving forward through life. I haven't known what I'm doing. I'm just doing what is interesting, what I feel called to do, what I can't help but to do. And only now, after being a music journalist, doing Kickstarter, starting creative Independent, doing Meta Label, doing artist corporations, I've also run a small press right now that I love doing, my life is about lifting up the potential of creative people. My entire life is dedicated to that. And from childhood that has been one. You know, I didn't know. I didn't know that's what it would always be. But it's what it's always been. And I just have like a unbelievable hunger for that and such joy. And for me to be able to like talk, support an artist in putting out a work, few things better for me to discover something that I love. I mean, and that's as good as it gets. Like this is just who I am and who I will always be. And I take that with an extreme amount of responsibility and love, being able to support my people.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

That was Yancy Strickler. He's an entrepreneur, musician, writer and the co founder of Kickstarter. You can see his full [e-mail] thank you so much for listening to part one of our two part series on the creator economy. Next week, linguist and viral content creator Adam Aleksik takes us inside social media trends and explains how they're changing culture and how we talk to each other.

[Adam Aleksik]

I don't want to be shalant all the time. There's a time and a place to be shalant and that there's a time to be nonchalant.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Yeah, but shalant is not its own word. What?

[Adam Aleksik]

But it is. It is now. It's a slang word that was popularized through like social media.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Meaning.

[Adam Aleksik]

Meaning. The opposite of nonchalant. Meaning you are overt about something.

[NPR Sponsor Announcer]

You are.

[Adam Aleksik]

Yeah, you are excited about something. I'm shalant about language, you know.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And Adam even teaches us what it takes to go viral.

[Adam Aleksik]

Wait, so we're trying to make a viral video right now?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Yes, we're gonna make a viral video, you and me. It's a fun one. You don't want to miss it. If you like this episode and enjoyed it or you have some feedback, do email us. We are at TedRadioHourPR.org we read every message and we love hearing from you. For example, we got this lovely voice message from a listener about our recent episode, the Art of Choosing what to Do. Danielle Eve sent us her thoughts about being intentional with how she spends her time.

[Podcast Listener / Voice Commenter]

Have never actually sent a voice comment to radio hosts, but I feel like this conversation about time and how we are spending our time and finding the meaningfulness of life is so important. And I think I shared the episode 10 or 12 times in the, you know, during the, the podcast. And so I just wanted to say thanks for making it. It was really great and I was really excited to share it because it felt like it combined a whole bunch of resources that I hadn't thought of yet. So thank you so much.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

This episode was produced by Hersha Nahada and Katie Monteleone and edited by Sanaz Meshkinpour and me. Our production staff at NPR also includes James Delahusy, Rachel Faulkner White, Matthew Cloutier, Fiona Guerin, and Phoebe Lett. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Our audio engineer was Jimmy Keeley. Our theme music was written by Ramtin Arablouei. Our partners at TED are Chris Anderson, Roxanne Hylash and Daniela Belarozzo. I'm Manouch Zomorodi and you have been listening to the TED Radio Hour from.

[Yancy Strickler]

N.

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