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- [00:00]
Carvana
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- [00:17]
Minouche Zamorodi
This is the TED Radio Hour. Each week, groundbreaking TED Talks.
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Katherine Kuchenbecker
Our job now is to dream big.
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Minouche Zamorodi
Delivered at TED conferences to bring about the future we want to see around the world to understand who we are. From those talks, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you.
- [00:37]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
You just don't know what you're gonna find challenge you. We truly have to ask ourselves, like.
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Carvana
Why is it noteworthy?
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Minouche Zamorodi
And even change you.
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Lee Thomas
I literally feel like I'm a different person.
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Minouche Zamorodi
Yes.
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Lee Thomas
Do you feel that way?
- [00:48]
Minouche Zamorodi
Ideas worth spreading From TED and npr. I'm Minouche Zamarodi. Many of us are. Most of us are used to getting notifications on our phones and smartwatches all day long. Pings, vibrations that we quickly learn to ignore. But what if your device communicated to you in a completely different way?
- [01:17]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
This device kind of more feels like a person reaching out. And you can imagine it like a smartwatch.
- [01:24]
Minouche Zamorodi
This is researcher Katherine Kuchenbecker in her lab. She works at the forefront of haptics, inventing ways to add a sense of touch to our technology, making it feel more responsive, tactile, maybe even alive.
- [01:42]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
A smartwatch. So just like a rectangle that's 3 cm by 3 cm, like 1 inch by 1 inch about. And when we send it a command, it will extend and go down and touch your skin. So imagine I reach over and just gently touch your arm. It's soft, so it feels very pleasant. It can touch you, make contact and then it can press harder and it can also vibrate. It can make all kinds of different signals on your skin.
- [02:12]
Minouche Zamorodi
Can I just to sort of understand it more. I'm picturing wearing like an Apple watch. But maybe it pokes me some of the hours. Maybe it touches me and presses down gently some of the other hours. Maybe it does the regular vibration other hours. But this could be useful to me in that I ignore touch when it becomes habitual.
- [02:33]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
Indeed. So just like you choose which alarm you want to use to wake up in the morning, you could choose how do you want your devices to notify you that it's time to stand up. So. So I have a few people in my team who live far away from their partner. And maybe this is creepy, but maybe you could send not just a little buzz, but like a pat or eventually a caress or a congratulatory one, like a high five that comes in over your chat or, I don't know, maybe something else. A hug. What would a hug feel like if my wristband could give me a digital hug?
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Minouche Zamorodi
I'm picturing you call the grandparents on zoom, but you also have a place where kids can put their hand and they can hold hands with their grandparents, who are half a world away.
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Katherine Kuchenbecker
Indeed, that's a personal connection through to supplement or augment. Video chat is definitely one thing. You could have like a zone on your phone or on a touchscreen where you could feel some haptic signals.
- [03:39]
Minouche Zamorodi
You could kiss someone on the screen.
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Katherine Kuchenbecker
One could. We haven't prototyped that or tested it yet. I mean, I'm sure people will try all kinds of things.
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Minouche Zamorodi
Is it fair to say that despite the fact that we have touch screens, we actually use that sense, that sense of touch, far less than maybe we did before the digital age? I mean, I'm just thinking about all the hours I spend looking at a screen, touching nothing, taking it all in with my eyes and ears.
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Katherine Kuchenbecker
That's a very insightful comment. And so touchscreens feel our touch. They vibrate, and that's good for getting your attention or telling you something happened. But touch has so many other facets, and those dimensions are really all missing from the interactions that we have.
- [04:30]
Minouche Zamorodi
Is that problematic? Do you feel that in the last two decades or so, that's become more of an issue for people, that they are less, well, I suppose, disembodied in some way because they're using the sense of touch less in their daily lives?
- [04:46]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
I do. Touch is, I would argue, our most important sense and also the most unappreciated. Because we have it so consistently, we can rely on it every day. In some ways, it is us. It's our body. Touch often grounds us to reality. It lets, you know, let me reach out and pinch myself or touch this thing. Am I here? Where am I? What is real, what is not? And so when virtual worlds don't have anything, you can feel or screens, feel my sensation and show me different materials, but I can't actually feel a digital representation of those materials. That's a disconnect and something that we.
- [05:27]
Minouche Zamorodi
Are working to improve on through touch and temperature. Your skin is constantly taking in signals from inside and outside your body in a uniquely personal way. And yet our skin is the most public part of the body, too. It's always on display. How do we use our body's largest organ to interpret the world? And how does the world use it? To interpret us. Well, today on the show, the Skin we're in. From cutting edge technology to personal journeys of self acceptance. Ideas about the role our skin plays in our lives now and how technology may change it. So back to Katherine Kuchenbecker. Today, she's a director at the Max Planck Institute for Intelligent Systems in Stuttgart, Germany. But her work on haptics started about 25 years ago as a PhD student.
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Katherine Kuchenbecker
I really started getting interested in touch when I started working on my PhD with my advisor, Gunter Niemeyer at Stanford. And he had helped invent the da Vinci surgical robot, which allows surgeons to remote control these long, thin instruments that reach inside of patients and do minimally invasive surgery. And he posed this problem of, how can we let the surgeon who's controlling this robot feel what the surgeon is touching across the room? Because we both intuitively had this feeling that making surgeons do operations without being able to feel is gonna make it more difficult. So when the surgeon is moving his or her hands and is touching things, if they don't feel anything, let's say they're pulling on a suture to try to tighten a knot. If they can't feel how tight they're tying that knot, just like if you were trying to tie your shoes but your hands are numb, you may accidentally not tighten it tight enough, or you might pull too hard and tear the suture in the patient's skin, or you might bump into something and not realize that you hurt it or damaged the tissue.
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Minouche Zamorodi
So Catherine and the team started thinking beyond push and pull and considering all the other messages that the skin takes in through touch.
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Katherine Kuchenbecker
Your sense of touch is actually much broader than only forces. You can also feel where something is touching you on your skin. You can feel temperature getting warmer, colder. You can feel vibrations. So similar to how your ears can hear, can hear fast vibrations, your skin can actually feel vibrations up to 1000 Hz or 1000 cycles in a second, and that's much faster. You can only move your hand back and forth, like, maybe one or two or three times in a second. But if you take two objects and you hit them together, they cause vibrations that you can feel. And that signal to your brain, oh, you hit something. Stop. Or that was a little violent, or you hit the end of the rope.
- [08:23]
Minouche Zamorodi
When a scalpel cuts through tissue or a needle pushes through the skin, there's a vibration between the two materials. The researchers realized that they could measure those vibrations and then simulate them with motors, making virtual surgery feel real.
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Katherine Kuchenbecker
We could have a source of really rich, interesting information and then we could very easily play these signals for the surgeons. Their right hand could feel the vibrations of the right instrument, and the left tool could feel the vibrations of the left instrument. And it's almost like their fingers were on the instruments themselves.
- [08:58]
Minouche Zamorodi
The tool is only used for teaching surgeons how to operate. It's not actually used on humans, but Catherine says it speeds up the training process immensely.
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Katherine Kuchenbecker
The cool thing is it feels very natural. They don't have to learn some, like, artificial touch language. They didn't have to do any extra learning. They just immediately start operating, moving much more like an expert, like being more careful and more precise and not being so violent, because once you can feel, you can automatically correct for accidents or collisions that are a little more violent. Or if you were supposed to hit something and you missed it, you didn't quite get it, then you feel that. So again, we're able to let the surgeon or the person learning how to be a surgeon close the loop and feel the consequences of their motion so that they can move more precisely.
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Minouche Zamorodi
These days, Catherine and her PhD students are developing all kinds of haptic technology, making touchscreens that feel textured, creating virtual reality gloves that make it possible to feel what you see, and building robots like Huggybot.
- [10:06]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
It was motivated. My PhD student at the time, Alexis Block, she and I were both living far from our families and wishing, wow, wouldn't it be amazing if we could just, like when you're having a bad day, just like your mom or your dad could send you a hug, or maybe you want to send your sister or your brother or your kid a hug to give them some support, like that physical, warm, soft embrace that often just helps calm you down and know you're not alone. So we had the idea of creating a hugging robot, and it was named huggybot.
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Minouche Zamorodi
Eventually, in a video done at the lab, you can see a robot wearing a purple sweatshirt with a screen for a head, smiling and asking, can I have a hug, please? Their arms outstretched.
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Katherine Kuchenbecker
Most robots in the world are not things you would ever want to hug. Many of them are pretty dangerous, and you should stay far away from them because they could actually really severely hurt you. And even robots that are maybe safe to be around people, they usually have hard outer surfaces, and they're cold, and that makes them not very pleasant. So huggiebot is soft and warm and responds to how you touch it. We found out it's really important first that the robot let go of you when you're ready to end the hug. No one likes a robot or A person who hugs too long.
- [11:32]
Minouche Zamorodi
Creepy.
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Katherine Kuchenbecker
Yeah, definitely creepy. We have, we even did that in the study. We had the robot hold on 5 seconds too long to prove that it's really important that the robot can feel when to let go. But then we realized there was this whole other level of the language of an embrace where if your partner squeezes you, it's nice to squeeze back. Or if they pat you, maybe you rub them on the back like there's a call and response, like a communication in this touch interaction. And so then we worked on giving huggiebot a sense of touch that would let it feel these intra hug gestures, what the person it was hugging was doing. And so we used, we custom made it, it's an torso kind of like a beach toy. And inside we put a pressure sensor that can measure the air pressure inside our huggybot because when you squeeze it, that pressure goes up. But then we also added a microphone and, and these two sensors are just in there listening inside of huggiebot's body. And then we can feel and hear through the microphone when you pat it or you rub it, there are characteristic sounds, the haptic contraction on the robot's back that we can figure measure those things and we can in real time. So we have little windows of data. We have a little machine learning algorithm that figures out with pretty high reliability, oh, that was a pat, that was a squeeze, that was a rub. Or the user didn't do anything. So to give the robot some understanding of what's happening to its body during the embrace.
- [13:04]
Minouche Zamorodi
When we come back, how humans reacted when huggiebot gave them a big embrace on the show today. The skin we're in. I'm Minouche Zamorodi and you're listening to the TED Radio hour from npr. Stay with us.
- [13:30]
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- [13:56]
Minouche Zamorodi
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- [14:29]
Ana Maria Coclita
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- [14:57]
Minouche Zamorodi
It's the TED Radio Hour from npr. I'm Minutia Zamorodi. On the show today, the skin we're in, and we've been talking to Katherine Kuchenbecker. She is an expert in haptics, how we can interact with our technology through touch. From our smartphones to robots like Huggybot, a robot built by Catherine and her PhD student, to, yes, hug people. Huggiebot knows when to embrace. It knows when to let go. It can pat, rub, and squeeze. But do people actually like being hugged by a robot?
- [15:36]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
We had people try the robot, and this is why experiments are really important. We guess that if they patted the robot, they would want the robot to pat, or if they did nothing, they would want the robot to do nothing. But that's actually not at all what we found. First of all, if people did something to the robot, like patted it and it did nothing, they did not like that. They thought that was a very rude robot that was kind of dissing them or ignoring them. And so it was very important that the robot would respond. The second important thing was when people were just standing there hugging the robot and it spontaneously patted them or squeezed them or rubbed them, they really liked it.
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Minouche Zamorodi
They liked it.
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Katherine Kuchenbecker
They liked it. People really loved it. Especially when the robot would squeeze them. It made people feel like, this robot loves me, this robot cares about me. And of course, you know, it's just a robot, but it, it evokes this like, oh, wow, I feel supported. And so we actually then probed programs huggybot, that when there's periods of silence in the embrace, like nothing's happening, the robot will proactively squeeze you so you know, it's thinking about you. And people really, people really like this. But it's still important to let go when the person wants to let go. When the person lets go, robot always lets go.
- [16:46]
Minouche Zamorodi
It feels like we're at this point where we are developing some people are developing relationships with artificial intelligence, which is still based on vision, text or also more artificial voices talking. But the next chapter of that seems to be communication based on our skin, our sense of touch, and the emotion that can be imparted with that. But then I think also people will worry that we think that we can substitute real human touch with this new kind of technology.
- [17:23]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
It definitely comes up. Actually, we were surprised. We did a later study that's not published where we compared hugging our robot with hugging a real human. And in some ways, people preferred hugging the robot, although it doesn't feel as comfortable. They didn't have to worry about whether the woman we'd hired to give hugs was enjoying hugging them. They could hug the robot as long as they wanted to. So it's just like a one sided interaction and you don't have to stress about, is this woman who's been hired to hug me, Is she really enjoying this hug as much as I am?
- [17:57]
Minouche Zamorodi
A sense of touch that delivers an emotion to you without any expectation of returning an emotion.
- [18:03]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
Yeah, we are absolutely not trying to replace humans. Like a hug from someone you know and care about is going to always be, I think, better than a hug from any robot. Here we were comparing to hugging a stranger or like a friendly person who you don't know. I mean, we actually had already stressed out the people and then they knew that her job was there to give you hugs. But my job as a researcher, our job is to ask questions, figure things out, be honest about what we find and report them so that other scientists can read about that, learn from what we learned about, and figure out what to do going forward to adapt the technology to help people, to help society.
- [18:46]
Minouche Zamorodi
That was Katherine Huchenbecker. She's a director at the Max Planck Institute for Intelligence Systems in Stuttgart, Germany, where she leads the haptic intelligence team. You can see her talk@ted.com on the show today. The skin we're in and now a different angle on touch and technology. We want to turn to the idea of artificial skin technology being developed to mimic this all important organ. This research is in its very early days because replicating the sensations that our skin sends to our brain is extremely difficult.
- [19:26]
Anamaria Coquita
So the skin is a complex system where there are a lot of things that are actually all working together at the same time.
- [19:36]
Minouche Zamorodi
This is Anamaria Coquita. She is a materials scientist who spent the last decade trying to replicate skin. The actual idea of creating artificial skin isn't new. It's been around since the 1980s, often used for burn victims. But there is something missing from today's artificial skin.
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Anamaria Coquita
There is the possibility to reconstruct the skin more or less that it kind of looks similar to before the burn, but still the sensation is lost.
- [20:10]
Minouche Zamorodi
The warmth of your coffee cup in the morning, water running through your hands as you wash them, or all the different textures you touch, smooth, rough, soft or sharp. All of those sensations are captured by your skin's receptors.
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Anamaria Coquita
We have receptors that are for strong touch, light touch, that is for the temperature. We have millions of receptors.
- [20:36]
Minouche Zamorodi
And all day long, those millions of receptors are bombarded with all kinds of.
- [20:41]
Anamaria Coquita
Information, and then they transmit this information through electrical stimuli to the brain, thanks to the nerves, nerve connections. So it's a very complex system.
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Minouche Zamorodi
And because the skin is so complex, replicating all those sensations has been really difficult until now.
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Anamaria Coquita
This is a piece of skin, of artificial skin.
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Minouche Zamorodi
Here's Ana Maria Coclita on the TED stage, where she unveiled Smart Skin.
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Anamaria Coquita
We have for the first time produced an artificial skin that can respond to three touch, so force, temperature and humidity. And it can do this also at an unprecedented resolution. So it's a very tiny device. And so this means that it can sense objects that are actually smaller than the objects that can be sensed with our skin. So first of all, imagine burns victims. If the burn is very deep, these burns up until the lower level of the epidermis. And this makes patients lose sensation. If one could make completely artificial skin, then, you know, the skin, this artificial skin could be applied as a patch in the area where there is the burn and give back the sensation to the people who have lost it.
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Minouche Zamorodi
So let's talk about what you're doing in your lab. You know, if I came into your lab and you showed it to me, what would I see?
- [22:31]
Anamaria Coquita
This artificial skin is actually thinner than the cross section of a hair. So it's basically impossible to see and impossible to really feel it when you touch it. So it takes the properties and the characteristics of the support material. So if we deposited on top of a glove, it will look like a glove. We have even deposited on top of this transferable tattoos, you know, the type that kids use. And then what you see is just really the tattoo paper. So it's so tiny that you don't see it and you don't feel it, but it takes the shape of the support material.
- [23:18]
Minouche Zamorodi
The artificial skin is made of a bunch of nanoscopic cylinders.
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Anamaria Coquita
This is the architecture of the artificial skin. So we are really able to control the thickness and the chemical composition of a material at the atomic level.
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Minouche Zamorodi
The inner core of each cylinder is filled with a polymer that gets bigger when exposed to a stimuli la catch temperature and humidity. And the outer part of the cylinder is made of something called piezoelectric material.
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Anamaria Coquita
A piezoelectric material is a material that, when it is compressed, produces electricity.
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Minouche Zamorodi
So when the cylinder is touched or exposed to heat, for example, the polymer on the inside kind of puffs up and compresses the material on the outside and boom.
- [24:08]
Anamaria Coquita
This produces an electric current from there. Each of these cylinders could be connected to a series of electrodes. And then we measure the electricity at each of these locations.
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Minouche Zamorodi
And similar to how our own skin sends information about what it's feeling to.
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Anamaria Coquita
Our brains, the artificial skin sends information to a computer. And that's where we read this electric signal. But then, you know, this signal can also be transmitted wirelessly to, for example, a neuroprosthetic. And this is how we actually intend to transmit it to the brain. But that will be a future development.
- [24:55]
Minouche Zamorodi
You mentioned prosthetics. How would smart skin be an added value, I guess, or be important to someone who needs to wear a prosthetic?
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Anamaria Coquita
Yeah. With this type of artificial skin, when this would be added to a processes, we could produce electrical signals that could send directly the information, could either stimulate the rest of the arm or of the leg, or they could transmit the information to a neural processes in the brain and then help the patient recognize also the characteristics of the objects.
- [25:40]
Minouche Zamorodi
So if they had a prosthetic foot, they would know if they were walking on hot gravel or.
- [25:50]
Anamaria Coquita
Yes, exactly. So a prosthetic hand, for example, would feel if the patient is holding a hot cup or a cold bottle of beer and would feel the difference. Another interesting field of application would be robotics. Nowadays, humanoid robots are used in many fields. For example, in medicine, but also in household. And these robots are exposed to several stimuli, several interaction with the environment and with the humans. And sometimes they have too many inputs at the same time. And this is the reason, number one, for robot failure. So imagine a future where actually a robot could be a bit more sensitive, a bit smarter. This would lead also to a higher safety of this technology.
- [26:45]
Minouche Zamorodi
I mean, would that be. This sounds kind of like science fiction, but in the future that you have a burn and you just put on like a temporary tattoo over that part and it connects to your body, Something like that.
- [27:00]
Anamaria Coquita
Yes. It could be a temporary tattoo or a patch that can be applied on the body. And then there could be different way of detecting the electrical signals. Could be even that it is just connected to an app on the smartphone. And then maybe the app is, I don't know, sending a message, a warning sound. If the temperature goes above a certain level. There could be different options.
- [27:27]
Minouche Zamorodi
In terms of the drawbacks to this, I can only imagine this is expensive.
- [27:32]
Anamaria Coquita
Well, yes and no, actually, in the sense that the instruments to deposit these materials are expensive at the beginning, but then the amount of material that is produced is so tiny that when you do a calculation per centimeter squared, the price is not that high.
- [27:52]
Minouche Zamorodi
Oh, interesting. Okay, so this could be something that is accessible to people.
- [27:56]
Anamaria Coquita
Yes, that's where we would like really to keep it accessible to people. It's a challenge and therefore it's an interesting project, you know, from also the scientific point of view, from the technological point of view. And yeah, this is what keeps me going.
- [28:20]
Minouche Zamorodi
That's Ana Maria Coclita. She's a materials scientist and a professor in the Department of physics at the University of Bari in Italy. You can see her full talk@ted.com. so that's the tech side of skin and touch. But let's talk about the human side. We all want to feel good in our own skin. But for those of us who appear on camera, the pressure to look a certain way can also feel intense.
- [28:50]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
Yes, it's a very cosmetic business. It's not just voice, it's a picture as well. And you do have to be presentable. What? My mom used to say you have to be presentable.
- [29:02]
Minouche Zamorodi
This is Lee Thomas.
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Katherine Kuchenbecker
I am an anchor and entertainment reporter and I've been broadcasting on television since 1991.
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Anamaria Coquita
Woo.
- [29:15]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
Yep.
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Minouche Zamorodi
Long time.
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Katherine Kuchenbecker
Yeah.
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Minouche Zamorodi
From a very young age, Lee had always dreamt about being on tv.
- [29:23]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
Where I came from, my example of television was this little boy named Rodney Allen Rippey.
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Anamaria Coquita
Hi, I'm Rodney Allen Rippey.
- [29:32]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
He had a commercial back in the 70s.
- [29:34]
Minouche Zamorodi
Pack up the kids, crank up the.
- [29:36]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
Car to Jack in the Bones. He was a little black dude. And I said, hey, I could do that. I could talk on tv.
- [29:43]
Lee Thomas joins us now with some helpful hints.
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Minouche Zamorodi
By his mid-20s, that dream was coming true.
- [29:49]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
Yeah, I was at WABC in New York, the number one station. I was on the number one newscast, the 5pm the kids have their back to school. I was the entertainment reporter on that newscast and it's the highest rated local newscast in the country. Talk about stress.
- [30:08]
Minouche Zamorodi
Despite his fast paced schedule, Lee felt like things were going well. But then one day he noticed a mark on his hand.
- [30:17]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
It looked like a freckling of light color on my hand. So I didn't really pay attention to it. I figured I hit my hand, it would, you know, it would fix itself later.
- [30:26]
Minouche Zamorodi
The barber pointed out a spot on the back of Lee's head, and that.
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Katherine Kuchenbecker
Was about the size of a quarter. So I immediately did what any grown man would do at the age of about 25 or 26. I immediately called my mom, and my mom said it was a stress mark and that it would go away, but it didn't.
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Minouche Zamorodi
More spots started appearing on Lee's skin.
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Katherine Kuchenbecker
I had, like three on my hand. I had two on my scalp. And then I had some in the corners of my mouth. About the size of a dime on each corner of my mouth. And that's when I went to a doctor and was diagnosed with vitiligo.
- [31:10]
Minouche Zamorodi
What did the doctor tell you? Had you heard of vitiligo before?
- [31:14]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
Never. Never heard of it. And when he said it, I didn't know what he was talking about. He said, you have vitiligo. It's a pigment disorder. It takes the pigment out of your skin. And then it turned into, you know, Charlie Brown's teacher. He said, vitiligo is autoimmune disorder, like rheumatoid arthritis or lupus, where your body attacks itself. And in the case of vitiligo, your body attacks the melanocytes, which are the pigment producing cells in your skin, and they destroy them. So you basically are without pigment.
- [31:54]
Minouche Zamorodi
How did you react? Do you remember?
- [31:57]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
Yeah. So my head's spinning. You know what I mean? I was a young guy in New York on a great newscast, you know, having a great time, and I didn't know how to process it. And I'm walking to work, talking to myself. I mean, what's gonna happen now? Am I gonna turn all the way white? Am I gonna still have a job? And the most popular person at the the time was Michael Jackson. And Michael Jackson said he had vitiligo. Okay, number one, this is the situation.
- [32:26]
Anamaria Coquita
I have a skin disorder that destroys.
- [32:28]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
The pigmentation of the skin.
- [32:30]
Anamaria Coquita
It's something that I cannot help.
- [32:32]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
And Michael Jackson also lost all of his pigment. When Michael Jackson was a boy, he.
- [32:38]
Minouche Zamorodi
Was a black kid.
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Lee Thomas
And now as an adult, he looks.
- [32:41]
H
Like a white man.
- [32:44]
Minouche Zamorodi
That's ignorance.
- [32:44]
Lee Thomas
What do you mean, it's ignorance?
- [32:45]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
I don't.
- [32:45]
I don't control the fact that I have vitiligo.
- [32:48]
I don't. I was afraid that I was gonna be that dude that was black one day and white the other on television. And I really didn't know how. I didn't know how to handle it.
- [33:01]
Minouche Zamorodi
In a minute, Hal Lee Thomas navigated his vitiligo diagnosis and got comfortable in his own skin on the show today. The skin we're in. I'm Minouche Zamorodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from N. We'll be right back.
- [33:29]
Ana Maria Coclita
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- [33:57]
Minouche Zamorodi
Today, it's the TED Radio Hour from npr. I'm Minouche Zumarodi. We were just talking to TV news anchor Lee Thomas about living with vitiligo, a condition that causes the skin to lose its pigment. When he got his diagnosis back in the 1990s and Lee felt shame and embarrassment, he was in the public eye and wasn't sure how he would deal with it. Here he is picking up his story from the TED stage.
- [34:27]
H
I just couldn't give up. I couldn't quit. So I decided to just put on makeup and keep it moving. I had to wear makeup anyway.
- [34:38]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
It's tv, baby, right?
- [34:41]
H
I just put on a little more makeup and everything's cool. And that actually went very well for years. I went from being a reporter in New York City to being a morning show anchor in Detroit. And as the disease got worse, I just put on more makeup. It was easy except for my hands. See, this disease is progressive and ever changing. That means it comes and goes. At one point, for about a year and a half, my face was completely white. And then with a little help, some of the pigment came back. But living through this process was like two sides of a coin. When I'm at work and I'm wearing the makeup or wearing the makeup outside, and I'm the TV guy, hey, how you doing, everybody?
- [35:38]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
Great.
- [35:39]
H
At home without the makeup, I take it off and it was like being a leper. The stares constantly staring at me, the comments under their breath. It was tough. And those were some tough years. Like one time, this little girl wasn't paying attention.
- [36:02]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
She's about 2 or 3 years old.
- [36:03]
H
She's running. She runs directly into my leg and falls down pretty hard. I thought she hurt herself. So I reach out to try and, you know, help the little girl and she looks at my vitiligo, and she screams, now, kids are pure honesty. This little girl, she wasn't trying to be mean. She didn't have any malice in her heart. She was just afraid. I stayed in the house for two weeks and three days on that one. It took me a second to get my mind around the fact that I scare small children. And that was something that I could not smile away.
- [36:51]
Minouche Zamorodi
It seems like that was a particularly low point for you when it came to people's reactions and how you think of yourself in your own body. How did you get out of.
- [37:06]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
Was tough. Because the truth of the matter is, and it's a tough sentence to say, I scared small children. That is a tough thing to get your mind around. But how did I get out of it? I was watching Oprah in my basketball bag. Like, my gym bag with my basketball shoes on my basketball, or right by the tv. And I decide that I am. I just want to be okay for, like, you know, an hour. I just don't want somebody to say squat about my skin for an hour.
- [37:40]
H
Just one hour.
- [37:42]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
And when I go play basketball, the dudes that I play basketball with have seen my skin change over the years. They know exactly what's happening, and they don't care as long as I make my jump shot. And so I went to the gym. Dudes were like, where you been? They didn't care. I played, had a great time, and I went and took the shower and, you know, like, normal. Like, it was normal. And I say, you know, bye to the guys at the desk on the way out. See you fellas next time. Blah, blah, blah. Oh, my God. It was like breathing. You know what I mean? It's like. Like breathing. It was normal again.
- [38:18]
Minouche Zamorodi
It sounds like you also reconnected with your body. You appreciated what it could do. It could sweat, it could play, it could have a jump shot. It could take a hot shower. It could feel good. And not just thinking about your appearance, which, you know, can be so tedious.
- [38:33]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
Yeah. And I realized that what was happening to my body didn't stop everything that my body can do. My body had this disease, vitiligo, that wasn't painful, wasn't life threatening. I was the one that's stopping movement and the other things that my body could do eventually.
- [38:54]
Minouche Zamorodi
You wrote a memoir in 2007 about your experience living with Vitiligo. I mean, and you would think, Lee, that since then, things have changed. We have supermodel Winnie Harlow, who has Vitiligo. We talk about Body positivity in society and people feeling good in their own bodies. But at the same time, I guess we still live in a place that is incredibly. Well, I was going to say judgmental, but maybe it's just uneducated.
- [39:24]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
Both. Yeah. I was the first person that I know of that started talking about Vitiligo openly. Even Michael Jackson didn't like talking about it. So people would interview me and ask me about him. But I wrote a book, and the Smithsonian got a copy of my book to put it in the Smithsonian Institute, because there was not a book on this before. And so I realized one thing very quickly, is that I am a man with vitiligo who can articulate his journey very well. And talking about Vitiligo is, besides my daughter, one of the most things I am most proud of. It's an interesting place to be in society right now because people are less tolerant of each other. But at the same time, I feel like we're leading to a place where we all can come together in understanding. And I think identity is big, big, big, because for me, when I first would walk down the hallway without my makeup on here at work, people were not able to look me in the eye. But I kept doing it until they were used to it. And then we're having conversations, and it's not the conversation, it's just the, oh, Lee doesn't have his makeup on yet. It was normalized.
- [40:38]
Minouche Zamorodi
So, Lee, I do have to ask, you still choose to wear makeup on air, what is your thinking behind that choice? And I guess, do you think you'd ever get to the point where you'd say, you know what? I am going on camera, I am going to do the news, and I am going to look exactly as I do when I'm not on tv. No makeup for me.
- [41:02]
Katherine Kuchenbecker
I don't know. You know, I know that even if you don't have Vitiligo, everybody puts on makeup to even out their skin. White, black, everybody. It's something that people do for television. And even if I didn't put on this brown makeup, I would have to put on something because I have oily skin. I don't know if I'm ever going to stop putting on. I think I'll stop doing tv and then I'll just stop wearing the makeup. For me, especially now, I'm proud to be an African American. I'm proud of my heritage. And it's most identified with darker skin, brown skin. And I like that for an hour a day, five days a week, I Get to be brown. Like, I get to be the way I was born. I get to be that. Now, is it me? Yes. And when I take off the makeup, you know what? That's also me, too.
- [42:05]
Minouche Zamorodi
That's broadcast journalist Lee Thomas. His book is called Turning A Memoir of Change, and you can see his full talk@ted.com so a lot of changes to our body happen slowly and naturally, but that is not the case if you choose to get a tattoo. In the US About a third of adults now have a Tattoo. That's some 86 million Americans who made a change to their body that is typically permanent. One of those people is the writer Katherine Schulz. For her, the tattoo she got had significance, but not the one she'd intended. Here she is on the TED stage back in 2011.
- [42:47]
Lee Thomas
I first started thinking about getting it in my mid-20s, but I deliberately waited a really long time, because we all know people who've gotten tattoos when they were 17 or 19 or 23 and regretted it by the time they were 30. That didn't happen to me. I got my tattoo when I was 29, and I regretted it instantly. And by regretted it, I mean that I stepped outside of the tattoo place. This is just a couple miles from here, down on the Lower east side, and I had a massive emotional meltdown in broad daylight on the corner of East Broadway and Canal street, which is a great place to do it, because nobody cares. And then I went home that night, and I had an even larger emotional meltdown, which I'll say more about in a minute. And this was all actually quite shocking to me because prior to this moment, I had prided myself on having absolutely no regrets. Now, I made a lot of mistakes and dumb decisions. Of course, I do that hourly, but I'd always felt like, look, you know, I mean, I made the best choice I could make given who I was. Then, given the information I had on hand, I learned a lesson from it. It somehow got me to where I am in life right now. And, okay, I wouldn't change it. In other words, I had drunk our great cultural Kool Aid about regret, which is that lamenting things that occurred in the past is an absolute waste of time, that we should always look forward and not backward, and that one of the noblest and best things we can do is strive to live a life free of regrets. This idea is nicely captured by this quote. Things without all remedy should be without regard. What's done is done. This seems like kind of an admirable philosophy at first, something we Might all agree to sign onto until I tell you who said it. Right. So this is Lady Macbeth basically telling her husband to stop being such a wuss for feeling bad about murdering people. And as it happened, Shakespeare was onto something here, as he generally was. Because I think you need to learn to live not without regret, but with it. So let's start out by defining some terms. What is regret? Regret is the emotion we experience when we think that our present situation could be better or happier if we had done something different in the past. So, in other words, regret requires two things. It requires, first of all, agency. We had to make a decision in the first place. And second of all, it requires imagination. We need to be able to imagine going back and making a different choice. And then we need to be able to kind of spool this imaginary record forward and imagine how things would be playing out in our present. And in fact, the more we have of either of these things, the more agency and the more imagination with respect to a given regret, the more acute that regret will be. So let's say, for instance, that you're on your way to your best friend's wedding and you're trying to get to the airport, and you're stuck in terrible traffic, and you finally arrive at your gate and you've missed your flight. You're going to experience more regret in that situation if you missed your flight by three minutes than if you missed it by 20. Why? Well, because if you miss your flight by three minutes, it is painfully easy to imagine that you could have made different decisions that would have led to a better outcome. I should have taken the bridge and not the tunnel. I should have gone through that yellow light. These are the classic conditions that create regret. We feel regret when we think we are responsible for a decision that came out badly but almost came out. Well, what does that experience feel like? Well, we all know the short answer, right? It feels terrible. Regret feels awful. And I think it's particularly painful for us now in the West. In the grips of what I sometimes think of as a control Z culture. Control Z, like the computer command undo. We're incredibly used to not having to face life's hard realities. In a certain sense, we think we can throw money at the problem or throw technology at the problem. We can undo and unfriend and unfollow. And the problem is that there are certain things that happen in life that we desperately want to change and we cannot. Sometimes, instead of control Z, we actually have zero control. And for those of us who are control freaks and Perfectionists. And I know whereof I speak. This is really hard because we want to do everything ourselves, and we want to do it right. So how are we supposed to live with this? I want to suggest that there's three things that help us to make our peace with regret, and the first of these is to take some comfort in its universality. If you Google regret and tattoo, you will get 11.5 million hits. The FDA estimates that of all the Americans who have tattoos, 17% of us regret getting them. That is Johnny Depp and me and our 7 million friends. And that's just regret about tattoos. The second way that we can help make our peace with regret is to laugh at ourselves. Now, in my case, this really wasn't a problem because it's actually very easy to laugh at yourself when you're 29 years old and you want your mommy because you don't like your new tattoo. But it might seem like a kind of cool or glib suggestion when it comes to these more profound regrets. I don't think that's the case, though. All of us who've experienced regret that contains real pain and real grief understand that humor, and even black humor, plays a crucial role in helping us survive. It connects the poles of our lives back together, the positive and the negative, and it sends a little current of life back into us. The third way that I think we can help make our peace with regret is through the passage of time, which, as we know, heals all wounds except for tattoos, which are permanent. So it's been several years since I got my own tattoo, and do you guys just want to see it? Actually, you know what? I should warn you. You're going to be disappointed because it's actually not that hideous. Some of your own regrets are also not as ugly as you think they are. I got this tattoo because I spent Most of my 20s living outside of the country and traveling. And when I came and settled in New York afterwards, I was worried that I would forget some of the most important lessons that I learned during that time. Specifically, the two things I learned about myself that I most didn't want to forget was how important it felt to keep exploring and simultaneously how important it is to somehow keep an eye on your own true north. And what I loved about this image of the compass was that I felt like it encapsulated both of these ideas in one simple image. And I thought it might serve as a kind of permanent mnemonic device. Well, it did, but it turns out it doesn't remind me of the thing I thought it would. It reminds me constantly of something else. Instead, it actually reminds me of the most important lesson regret can teach us, which is also one of the most important lessons life teaches us. And ironically, I think it's probably the single most important thing I possibly could have tattooed onto my body. If we have goals and dreams and we want to do our best, and if we love people and we don't want to hurt them or lose them, we should feel pain when things go wrong. The point isn't to live without any regrets. The point is to not hate ourselves for having them. The lesson that I ultimately learned from my tattoo and that I want to leave you with today is we need to learn to love the flawed, imperfect things that we create and to forgive ourselves for creating them. Regret doesn't remind us that we did badly. It reminds us that we know we can do better. Thank you.
- [50:57]
Minouche Zamorodi
That was author Katherine Schulz. She writes for the New Yorker, and her most recent book is called called Lost and Found. Thank you so much for listening to our show this week. The episode was produced by James Delahusy, Rachel Faulkner White, Katie Monteleone and Matthew Cloutier. It was edited by Sanaz Meshkinpour and me. Our production staff at NPR also includes Fiona Guerin and Harsha Nahada. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Our audio engineers were Jimmy Keeley and Robert Rodriguez. Our theme music was written by Ramtin Arablouei. Our partners at TED are Chris Anderson, Roxanne Hylash, Alejandra Salazar and Daniela Belarazzo. I'm Minouche Zamorodi, and you've been listening to the TED Radio hour from npr.
- [51:48]
Carvana
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