What we'll eat on a warmer planet

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What We'll Eat on a Warmer Planet"

Podcast: TED Radio Hour (NPR)
Date: May 22, 2026
Host: Manoush Zomorodi

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Overview

This episode explores the uncertain and rapidly changing future of food in the face of climate change. Through conversations with a White House chef turned food policy advocate, a multi-generational rice-farming family, a cellular agriculture pioneer, and an artist-cum-botanist, the show unpacks how climate change threatens both staple and beloved foods, and what innovations—on the farm, in the lab, and through conservation—might help us adapt. Topics range from at-risk foods like crab and peaches to cultured meat, methane reduction in rice, and the preservation of heritage fruit varieties.

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Main Segments & Key Insights

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1. The Emotional Impact of Food Loss (Sam Kass’ Last Supper)

[00:59 – 05:45; 15:18 – 19:30]

• Setting the Scene: Host Manoush Zomorodi attends a "Last Supper" dinner curated by Sam Kass, former White House chef and food policy advisor, where the menu features dishes under threat from climate change: crab cakes, peach tarts, Atlantic salmon, wine, chocolate cake, and coffee.
• Purpose of the Event:
  • Sam Kass aims not to depress, but to “make an emotional connection in a way that I think only food can, to understand really what’s at stake” ([02:24], Sam Kass).
• Key Threatened Foods:
  • Crab: Pacific Northwest snow crab fishery collapsed (80% drop in population between 2018–2022). “That absolutely decimates those fishermen who have depended on that fishing ground for generations.” ([07:10], Sam Kass)
  • Peaches: Georgia lost 95% of its peach crop; may be unable to grow peaches in the future. “What’s Georgia without a peach?” ([07:04], Sam Kass)
  • Wine:
    • By 2040, global wine regions may shrink by half.
    • Champagne producers buying land in England: “You know things are really bad when the French are buying land in England to make champagne. It’s like, sound the alarm.” ([07:48], Sam Kass)
  • Staple Crops—Wheat and Rice:
    • 60% of global calories come from wheat, rice, and corn.
    • Drought conditions for wheat expected to rise from 15% to 60% by 2040.
  • Chocolate & Coffee:
    • Chocolate-only grows close to the equator and may vanish with 2°C warming.
    • “There is not a single model that shows... any of that region will be suitable for chocolate production.” ([16:19], Sam Kass)
    • 75 of 124 wild coffee varieties near extinction.

Notable Quote:

• “If we don't solve climate, all of the other things we care about in food are going to be just deeply impacted.” ([05:03], Sam Kass)

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2. Pathways to a Sustainable Food Future

[09:35 – 13:02]

Kass identifies three leverage points:

• 1. Consumer Choice & Market Demand

  • Consumers must choose and demand climate-friendly foods—even imperfectly labeled ones—to shift corporate priorities.
  • “We have to start moving the market so that all companies know that if they want to grow… they have to start taking the environment into account.” ([09:57], Sam Kass)
  • Challenge: Greenwashing is prevalent.

• 2. Agricultural Practices & Carbon Sequestration

  • Techniques like cover cropping, no-tilling, and using microbial seed-coatings (e.g., fungi that sequester carbon).
  • “…One company I’m excited about has fungi that you coat seeds with and they’re pulling down like 3 tons of carbon per acre per year.” ([11:30], Sam Kass)
  • Economic challenge: Farmers bear upfront risks and costs.

• 3. Cultural Shifts in Diet

  • Personal changes matter, but perfection isn’t required.
  • “If you have a steak every once in a while… it’s a treat. I love a ribeye. I’m not going to lie. But we just can’t eat giant portions and we can’t eat it all the time.” ([12:46], Sam Kass)

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3. Solutions From the Ground: Rice & Methane Reduction (The Whitaker Family Farm)

[20:11 – 33:34]

• Rice’s Global Significance:
  • Feeds more people worldwide than any other crop ([20:11], Jessica Whitaker Allen).
  • Arkansas is the largest US rice-growing state.
• Innovation:
  • The Whitakers altered traditional rice farming by leveling fields ("zero grade rice"), cyclically flooding/drying fields, and using hybrids that tolerate drier conditions.
  • Data-driven approach: Began measuring water, fertilizer, and fuel usage ([25:12], Jessica Whitaker Allen).
• Result:
  • Methane emissions reduced by up to 79% ([28:10]).
  • “We say that we're going to reduce it 50% on our package, but our documented last year was 79%.” ([28:14], Jessica Whitaker Allen)
• Market and Certification Challenges:
  • Hard to get shelf space for “climate smart” rice; premium price likely initially.
  • Aim: To create a "Climate Smart" standard akin to "organic."
  • “Everything’s greenwashed. You can put whatever you want to on a package and there's no rules, there's no standards. So we’re trying to make that standard.” ([29:42], Jessica Whitaker Allen)
• Scaling & Education:
  • Working to incentivize other farmers and expand the market for sustainable rice ([30:33], Agriculture Advocate).

Notable Quote:

• “There are 400 million acres of rice grown globally. It is the largest emitter of methane gas. It is the largest user of irrigation water. And our methods, if used, can reduce greenhouse gas by 50%, reduce water use by 50%, increase yields to feed a hungry world.” ([31:45], Jim Whitaker)

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4. Rethinking Meat: Cultivated and Cell-Grown Food (Isha Datar)

[36:12 – 47:25]

• Background & Big Idea:
  • Isha Datar, a cell biologist and executive director of New Harvest, became enamored with the idea of farming cells for food ([36:27]).
  • She describes an “epiphany” hearing about lab-grown meat: “That was my real epiphany: oh my gosh, yes, absolutely, that is going to happen.” ([37:34], Isha Datar)
• Progress and Pitfalls:
  • First lab-grown products: $300,000 hamburger (2013), meatballs, and chicken nuggets.
  • “To me, this chicken nuggets, this hamburger, this sausage... they're our ticket to a new food system.” ([39:10], Isha Datar)
  • Reality check: Cultivated meat isn’t widely available; US regulators have approved but many states have banned. Singapore is ahead, but its cultivated meat is mostly plant-based filler ([41:31]).
  • Core technical challenge: Scaling from thin cell sheets to 3D meat cuts ([42:19]).
• Beyond Meat:
  • Focus shifting from just meat to other cellular food possibilities (egg whites, vanilla, cheese enzymes, leather, silk).
  • “We are used to transforming food with biotechnology. It’s arguably the oldest technology we have.” ([45:55], Isha Datar)
  • Vision: “If we looked at milk and couldn’t have envisioned cheese, today we’re looking at meat, and we’re just trying to make meat again. But maybe we can make the cheese of meat.” ([46:26], Isha Datar)

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5. Conservation & Creativity: The Tree of 40 Fruit (Sam Van Aken)

[47:25 – 52:37]

• Lost Diversity:
  • Most historic fruit varieties (peaches, plums, apples) have vanished due to industrial agriculture and disease ([48:08], Sam Van Aken).
• Tree of 40 Fruit:
  • Combines 40 varieties of stone fruit on one tree via grafting.
  • “It’s designed to be a normal looking tree… until spring when it blossoms in pink and white, and then in summer, bears a multitude of different fruit.” ([48:36], Sam Van Aken)
• The Open Orchard:
  • Living gene bank in NYC with 50 multi-grafted trees, 200 heirloom fruit varieties ([50:55]).
  • Aims to reconnect us with food history and inspire future conservation.
  • “100 years ago, we were all much more closely tied to the culture, the cultivation and the story of our food. And we've been separated from that.” ([51:54], Sam Van Aken)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Food as Climate Witness:

  • “Food holds some of the biggest both problems, but also potential to solve these challenges of anywhere that we have.” ([02:45], Sam Kass)

• On the Power of Consumer Choice:

  • “People aren’t buying climate-friendly… it’s not a driver of sales. That has to change.” ([10:21], Sam Kass)

• On Tradition vs. Innovation:

  • “You have to challenge the ‘this is the way my dad always did it’ mentality.” ([32:25], Jessica Whitaker Allen)

• On Biotech & Food Culture:

  • “Maybe we can make the cheese of meat… unlocking the power of cell culture to just increase food culture instead of replicating a culture we already have.” ([46:26], Isha Datar)

• On Conservation Through Art:

  • “The Open Orchard creates the opportunity not just to reconnect to this unknown past, but a way for us to consider what the future of our food could be.” ([52:15], Sam Van Aken)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Sam Kass’ Last Supper and At-risk Foods: 00:59–13:02, 15:18–19:30, 16:00–19:30
• Methane Reductions in Rice (Whitaker Family): 20:11–33:34
• Cultivated Meat and Cell-based Foods (Isha Datar): 36:12–47:25
• Tree of 40 Fruit & Conservation through Art (Sam Van Aken): 47:25–52:37

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Overall Tone & Takeaway

The episode blends urgency, realism, hope, and creativity. It asks tough questions about what foods may disappear as the climate changes, what systemic change requires (from culture and policy to technology and art), and how anyone—consumer, farmer, scientist, or artist—can shape the future of what’s on our plates.

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For listeners seeking the facts, the feelings, and the possibilities of tomorrow’s food, this episode is a thought-provoking feast.

Transcript

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[Sam Kass]

Hello, everybody. How we doing?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

So, a while back, I went to a pretty unusual event.

[Sam Kass]

I'm really excited to be here.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

This was a dinner and TED Talk given by former White House chef Sam Katz.

[Sam Kass]

Let's start with those who presented us

[Minouche Zamorodi]

with a four course meal.

[Sam Kass]

Let's start with the crab cakes.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Crab cakes with crispy capers.

[Sam Kass]

Let's turn to fruit.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Then came mini tarts, that beautiful little

[Sam Kass]

peach jam in the little mozzarella cup.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

You had seared Atlantic salmon with new potat and some focaccia on the side. All along our wine glasses were topped off.

[Sam Kass]

Yes, wine is definitely a fruit, people.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Until the end when we were presented with chocolate cake and coffee. I mean, I'll say it was very good. But Sam calls this meal the Last Supper. Not like in the Bible, more because many of these dishes are under threat because of climate change.

[Sam Kass]

Now, this menu has been put together with ingredients that experts and models predict will not be around for our kids and our grandkids. And you'll see that it's many of the foods that we hold dear.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Sam first gave this dinner over a decade ago at the Paris Climate Accords when he realized that food and agriculture were not on the agenda.

[Sam Kass]

When we say the word climate change, what do the words climate change actually mean? The point here is not to depress you or to scare you. It's not. It's not. It's to try to make an emotional connection in a way that I think food, only food can to understand really what's at stake when we're having these conversations. Now, the good news is on our plates really does hold some of the biggest both problems, but also potential to solve these challenges of anywhere that we have. And that's the part that gives me a ton of hope.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

There's a movement afoot to change the way we grow our food and eat. Because right now, global food production is a huge contributor to climate change. And the warming planet is making it harder for farmers to grow ingredients we take for granted. We've learned that eating local and organic foods are good for us and the environment, but it's just not enough. Agriculture needs to change drastically if we want to continue eating the foods we know and love and nourish the planet's billions of inhabitants. And so today on the show, figuring out the complicated future of food, a chef, a farmer, and a biotechnologist share how they're searching for solutions. So back to Sam Kass. He was cooking for the Obama family in the White House when he started working with them to get America to rethink how they eat and ended up getting into food policy as well.

[Sam Kass]

Most people didn't even have a basic connection at that point to their health and well being and food. The idea that it was having such a big impact on so many people's health, we hadn't connected those dots. And there's a lot of work to do to just try to say, like, how do we shift the culture and put these issues and how we're feeding ourselves sort of front and center.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

You may remember some of their campaigns to make school lunches more nutritious. Wait a minute.

[Sam Van Aken]

Are You First Lady, Mrs. Michelle Obama?

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Michelle Obama on Sesame street, motivating kids to move more and eat healthy. What are you doing here on Sesame Street?

[Interviewer]

I'm about to have this nice healthy breakfast.

[Sam Kass]

The idea was one, can we start to shift the culture? Like, can we really elevate these issues on people's minds and start to shift our core values and that we care about the health of food and the impact that food is having on our society and our culture.

[Interviewer]

But here we are now, a decade later, and you have moved on to another pressing food problem. Tell me about that transition.

[Sam Kass]

Well, I think the health of ourselves as humans and the health of the planet are inextricably linked. And climate change, which of course food and ag is a major driver of, is starting to decimate our capacity to feed ourselves. And the future is pretty scary when you start to see what the models look like in terms of our ability to grow the basic foods that we consume every day and some of the implications behind that. So for me, it's one big set of issues that we have to grapple with. But if we don't solve climate. All of the other things we care about in food are going to be just deeply impacted. And a lot of the progress that we've made are just going to be undermined by climate.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Sam Kass picks up again from his last supper dinner in 2024.

[Sam Kass]

Our oceans are really on the front lines of climate change. In the Pacific Northwest, two years ago, they closed the snow crab fishery for the first time in its history. They did that because that fishery had gone from 11.7 billion crabs in 2018 to 1.9 billion last year. That's over an 80% collapse of that population in just five years. Now, there was hope that nature is resilient and that population will rebound. But just about a month ago, officials announced that that fishery would be closed for the second straight year because the population just had not recovered. That absolutely decimates those fishermen who have depended on that fishing grounds for generation. Now let's turn to fruit. That beautiful little peach jam and the little mozzarella cup you had last year, we lost 95% of the Georgia peach crop. 95%. And when you start to look at the models and how our environment is changing in our lifetimes, I don't believe we'll be growing peaches in Georgia at all. And what's Georgia without a peach? But I'm going to go to a fruit that is even more important, at least to me. And this is where these issues start

to get pretty serious for me.

That fruit is wine. The National Academy of Sciences predicts that by 2040, assuming we hit 2 degrees, or if and when we hit 2 degrees, the world's wine growing regions will be cut in about half in terms of what can sustain wine. Just a few weeks ago, one of the largest cava producers in Spain announced that they were laying off 80% of their workforce, about 615 people, the big operation, because they simply were not going

to have grapes to harvest this year.

There are producers in Champagne that are buying land in England because they do not believe they will be able to make champagne in champagne in the foreseeable future. Now, you know things are really bad when the French are buying land in England to make champagne. It's like, sound the alarm. We got a problem here.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

There are going to be some people

[Interviewer]

listening who are like, well, boo hoo. You and your fancy friends can't have your champagne, your cava and your crab cakes. How do you explain the stakes to them? Why do you think this is an effective way to show people, oh, I

[Sam Kass]

wish I could stop There. So let's keep going. Let's talk about wheat and rice.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Staples.

[Sam Kass]

Staples. So the world, 60% of the world's

calories comes from wheat, rice and corn. 60% from those three crops. Those three crops keep life on planet Earth going. So the warmer we get, the worse it's going to be for yield. The other part is right now about 15% of the world's wheat is grown in persistent drought conditions. By 2040, that number will be 60%. So you're going to see massive collapses season over season in different parts of the world of full crops that just fail. And remember, the population is going to continue to grow. So we, it's not just sort of the current 7 billion. You know, all the models show we'll get to be about 10 billion people by the, by mid century. So we have to feed a lot more people in a much more challenging climate as the yields are declining. It is a pretty serious situation.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

So what can we do? Well, Sam says we need to tackle three areas to turn that situation around. First, let's talk about the consumer. He says we need to show companies that we want climate friendly products. Only then will those companies truly invest in making products that are both sustainable and affordable.

[Sam Kass]

We as consumers have to start choosing foods that are produced in a more climate friendly and environmental friendly way. And however we can do that by supporting companies that are making any kind of claim, even if it's not true, we have to start moving the market so that all companies know that if they want to grow and they want to hold onto their consumer base, they have to start taking the environment into account.

[Interviewer]

What do you mean even if it's not true?

[Sam Kass]

Meaning that right now there's work to do to hold these companies accountable. Because there's plenty of companies who are saying these things and it's just nonsense. Like it's not real greenwashing, it's greenwashing. There's some companies that are really trying to figure it out. So there's a bunch of nascent emerging brands that are doing a great job and starting to prove like it's possible. But the big companies right now, people aren't buying climate friendly. It's not a driver of sales. So right now for them, they look at their math, they're like, I need to invest how much money in changing my whole supply chain. And the CMO is like, I can't sell that. The mass market's not buying that.

[Interviewer]

And presumably it's at a premium as well, right?

[Sam Kass]

There's a premium, there's a cost to this transition. And one that we haven't figured out is who's going to pay for it. And consumers have to start sending a very strong signal to these big companies especially that I'm going to choose products that are at least claiming to try to do a better job with the environment.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Next, more foods need to be developed that don't increase global warming, but actually help reduce it.

[Sam Kass]

So with the right practices and some tools, food and agriculture can be sequestering megatons and gigatons of carbon, like really bend the global emissions curve.

So you start doing practices like cover

cropping and, and no tilling. So you're not turning up the soil and you're helping to build the ecological health around that ecosystem. Those microbes in the soil will start pulling down carbon through the plants and storing it in the soil. One company I'm very excited about has fungi, microbes like little fungi that you coat seeds with and they're pulling down like 3 tons of carbon per acre per year and storing that carbon more permanently in the soil. So shifting our practices with a different mindset and starting to incentivize and pay farmers to solve some of these big problems is the answer.

The problem right now is like we're

asking farmers to make all these changes and take on all the risk in those changes and with no real short term economic benefit to them.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Finally, as more climate friendly farming practices and products become available, our culture around what we eat on a daily basis and has to change too.

[Sam Kass]

He says this is the one place in our daily lives that we can collectively have a really big impact. And how we eat gives us a shot every single day to try to do a better job. And it doesn't have to be some big overhaul. Little by little, it can have a big impact. Not to be stressed about it, not to get all worked up about it.

And if you have a steak every

once in a while, I have a steak every once in a while.

It's a treat.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It's a treat.

[Sam Kass]

It's a treat. I love a ribeye. Like, I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to pretend. Like anybody who tells you ribeye doesn't taste good, I think it's insane. Like, I just don't think they know

what they're talking about.

But like, that's okay. We just can't eat giant portions and we can't eat it all the time.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

When we come back, we wrap up the last supper with some dessert and coffee and chef turned food policy wonk Sam Kass predicts what happens next for food and climate. On the show today, the Future of Food. I'm Minouche Zamorodi and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from npr. We'll be right back. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Wayfair. Whether your vibe is modern, coastal, farmhouse or eclectic, Wayfair has options to help you create an outdoor space that's uniquely yours. Wayfair makes it simple to narrow down to what works for your style budget. Get prepped for patio season. For way less, head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home.

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Love TED Radio Hour. Then come hang out with us in the NPR app. It's the best way to catch every episode. And if you turn on notifications, we'll let you know the second a new conversation drops. Download the NPR app and let's keep talking. It's the TED Radio Hour from npr. I'm Minouche Zumarodi. On the show today, the complicated future of food. We were just talking to former Obama White House chef Sam Kass, who is now a food policy guy and hosts dinners that he calls the Last Supper on the menu, dishes that are in Jeopardy because of our changing climate.

[Sam Kass]

This is not some far out Future Challenge.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

In 2024, I attended one of his last suppers where he also delivered his TED talk.

[Sam Kass]

Now, I wish I could tell you, you know, you're still going to have your dessert and everything is fine alongside

[Minouche Zamorodi]

coffee and chocolate cake for dessert.

[Sam Kass]

And in some ways, chocolate is faring the worst. So probably, you've never probably had a bite of chocolate that wasn't grown within about 10 degrees of the equator by smallholder farmers. And there is not a single model that shows that if and when we hit 2 degrees, any of that region will be suitable for chocolate production. It will be too dry and too hot. And again this year, chocolate prices are up by 50% because those production ecosystems have been hammered by drought and extreme weather. Raise your hand if you've had a cup of coffee today or a cup of tea. Oh, yeah, I'm sorry, I know much of coffee is grown, it's sort of in the valleys around mountainous areas, shade grown coffee. And as it started to warm on the bottom of those mountains, it's just become simply too hot. About 75 of the 124 wild varieties of coffee are on the verge of extinction right now. And that's really a problem because much of the genetic material that we will need to try to produce hybrid varieties that could thrive in much more volatile climate are going to be lost.

[Interviewer]

You said earlier that back when you were in the Obama White House that there was sort of a sense that

[Minouche Zamorodi]

people were ready for a change when

[Interviewer]

it came to how they thought about

[Minouche Zamorodi]

their food, the cultural implications, the way that they understood how it related to

[Interviewer]

their neighborhood, to their community.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Are we ready for this next sort of way of thinking about food? Are we?

[Interviewer]

Do we still have a lot of

[Minouche Zamorodi]

work to do before these changes happen?

[Sam Kass]

There's mixed signals. When we were in the Obama administration,

the big ag groups first of all

did not engage with us. And if you said the word climate change, it was like you were spitting in their face. It was like the greatest offense. There was no discussion. Now you have the biggest, most conservative ag group sitting down and forming formal coalitions with some of the most well known environmental groups to figure out how to galvanize agriculture to start solving these problems. And I would have bet every dollar I would ever make that that would never happen. On the other hand, you know, you still don't see the mass consumer rallying on this. You see parts of politics starting wanting to still go backwards on these things, which is like, you know, there's reasons to feel good and there's reasons to feel concerned. I think we have no choice but to figure out how to galvanize more. I'm father of two boys, Cy and Rafa. They're six and five. And our ability to hand to the next generation the quality of life, the richness and deliciousness of life that we were given is truly at stake. And that's why these issues matter. And that's why working to make some better food choices matter. That's why voting matters. That's why advocacy in your church or your business that you either run or work at, in your schools, wherever you are, putting these issues forward matter. Asking the questions matter.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

That was Sam Kass. He's the author of the Last Supper, how to Overcome the Coming Food Crisis on the show today, the Future of Food. So that question of how to incentivize farmers to change how they grow staple crops so that they're better for the environment and make money, well, there's a family farm getting closer to an answer here in the US I met up for coffee with Jim Whitaker and his daughter Jessica Whitaker Allen to hear their somewhat radical approach to growing rice.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

So rice is the single largest calorie consumed around the world every day. It feeds more people than any other crop. When we harvest it, it goes straight to the meal. We take the husk off and it's ready to eat.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Rice is calorie dense, a good source of protein. It stores well, which is why about half of the world eats it every day. And the Whitaker family has been growing rice for six generations.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

Yeah, we've been in Arkansas for over 130 or 40 years. And sometimes I wonder why did they stop here? Did their wagon break or what happened? But there's not many of us left. We're just only a few, me and my brother.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And I mean, I didn't even know

[Interviewer]

that there was rice farming in Arkansas in the United States.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

So Arkansas is the largest rice growing state in the country. We have six rice growing states. It's the largest one. About half of our rice is exported and about half of it is eaten inside the US So if I go

[Interviewer]

to the grocery store and buy like Uncle Ben's or something like that, it

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

could be from you if, well, if you bought Uncle Ben's ready to eat rice, there's a strong chance one in every three of those come off our farm. Oh, wow.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So let's go back to how you got to be such a big supplier of rice in this country. You tell a story about how you were 22 and you were like, okay, grown up. I'm gonna start my own farm. But not that easy.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

No, it's not. I mean, I remember it like it was yesterday. We drove to the bank and didn't have two nickels to rub together. And we got a FHA beginning Farmer loan and took off.

[Jim Whitaker]

So my brother and I rented a farm.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Here's Jim Whitaker on the TED stage.

[Jim Whitaker]

Farming is a very capital intensive business. My dad couldn't help us. He didn't have the finances. He could not help us get started. And let me tell you something about renting a farm. When you're 22 years old, no one rents you a farm unless no one else wants to. Rent was a big piece of land. It was cash rent. I mean, the states were set. We were doomed to fail. And we weren't focused on environmental sustainability back then. We were focused on economic sustainability. How do we make higher yield? How do we use less fertilizer? How do we get to the next year and feed our family?

[Interviewer]

In my mind, I mean, when you say rice farming, I mean, sorry it's such a cliche, but I'm picturing rice fields in Vietnam or where there's water everywhere and people picking the rice and is that what it looks like?

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

Okay, so rice around the world is grown in a flooded environment. This is for weed control purposes. When they plant the rice in the water. Grasses don't grow well in the water. So that's why people use water all these thousands of years to grow rice is for weed control. Now, you know, I was in Bangkok a few months ago and a farmer was on his back porch. I'm like, well, how do you know if that's right? He said, well, that's the way we've always done it. I say, I'm a fifth generation farmer. He's probably a hundredth generation farmer. I mean, they've probably been farming rice there for 2,000 years in that same field. It's just the way he's always done it.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

For thousands of years, rice has been grown in tiers of flooded fields. You've probably seen the photos. They look like massive green staircases. But about 20 years ago, Jim and his family started wondering what would happen if they didn't grow rice this way. They started experimenting with different methods, like getting rid of those tears.

[Jim Whitaker]

So one of the first things we did on our rice fields, we adopted a technique that's a little different. We leveled our fields completely flat. This is called zero grade rice. All over the world is grown in a Flooded environment. And most people use the natural contour of the earth to cascade the water down and let the water flow downhill. We call it continuous flood. They continuously put water on their fields, and we leveled ours flat with a perimeter road. And what that perimeter road lets us do is capture rainfall. So we're actually pump less water. We're actually able to use less water. We have less runoff, less erosion, less nutrients leaving our field. Nothing leaves our field unless we want it to. So it happens that economic and environmental sustainability go hand in hand along with social sustainability. As we use less fertilizer, use less water, our yields start going up.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

By flattening the rice fields, the Whitakers gave rain and fertilizer more time to soak into the soil. And that road they built around the fields, it collected excess water that they could reuse. So using less resources was good for the environment and the Whitaker's finances. Jessica Whitaker Allen, Jim's daughter, remembers helping out with those early experiments as a teenager.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

I guess I was around 16, 17 years old, and we had a project one year to see and monitor our water use on our farm. And I would actually go monitor and record that data weekly after rain events just to make sure, you know, we've got this. And that's really when we started tracking this. We saw that our water use was down, and so we really started recording all this stuff by hand in just an excellent Excel spreadsheet. We didn't know what we were doing.

[Interviewer]

But you knew you were onto something. Yes.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

So we started recording everything. Let's add more data points to that. Let's add our fertilizer, let's add our fuel usage. And so we didn't know what was important or how it would be important.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

That's when Jim and Jessica began to question the other fundamental tenet of growing rice. Keeping the fields flooded. They decided to cycle the fields between flooding and letting them go dry.

[Interviewer]

So, okay, that's what's counterintuitive, right, Is because people think that rice needs to

[Minouche Zamorodi]

be in water all the time.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

It's got time to be submerged all the time, and it doesn't. And they think if I let it dry up, I'm gonna hurt it some kind of way. So the varieties we are using are hybrids, and they're very resilient.

[Interviewer]

So they can take it.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

When the field gets dried out, they can take it.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Not only did the rice do surprisingly well, this new method had other advantages for the climate.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

Because soil is full of microbes, microbes

[Minouche Zamorodi]

that multiply if crops are underwater.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

And what they're doing in the soil on a basic level is they're down there chewing away, eating up the biomass that's left over from the crop before.

[Jim Whitaker]

So they're digesters.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

And out of that comes methane, the same way it happens in cattle operations or whatever.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Methane is a notorious greenhouse gas and rice Farming accounts for 8 to 11% of global methane emissions.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

So when we dry the soil, that anaerobic microbial that's living in that soup, that mushy soil either dies or goes dormant. So we break his life cycle and then it stops emitting methane. But it doesn't hurt the rice, it actually helps the rice.

[Interviewer]

When you use less water, that reduces the emissions, the methane.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

By how much?

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

Well, last year our documented emission reduction was 79%.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Oh wow.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

We say that we're going to reduce it 50% on our package, but our documented last year was 79%.

[Interviewer]

So you're reducing the emissions but you're still growing just as much rice.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

Just as much rice.

[Jim Whitaker]

So Jessica went to college, got a business degree, a sustainability minor, went on to get her mba, emphasis on finance. Now she's back helping me with protocols and data collection. So we established what is called the Smart Rice protocol. And we have one of the first ever third party verified sustainable rice packages that hit the market a few months ago. And we're trying to get in retail locations and I think that's going to be the future.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

But it's been tough getting retailers to sell climate friendly rice. So the Whitakers are now partnering with over 30 other sustainable rice growers to try and create a market for climate friendly rice. Recently, Jim also started advising an organization that is working to get more farms to invest in agriculture that earns a

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

Climate Smart certification, almost like an organic certification. There are only a few in the world that are doing this, so it doesn't mean anything yet. We hope it means a lot in a few years.

I mean, take a walk through your supermarket, everything's green washed. You can put whatever you want to on a package and there's no rules, there's no standards. So we're trying to make that standard.

[Interviewer]

So there is opportunity here, there's opportunity.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

I'm not doing it for nothing.

[Interviewer]

Is it going to cost the consumer more?

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

I think it will until we can get to scale. And I think it should be costs the consumer a little bit more because they're partnering along this journey to clean up the climate. So we need to expand the price of rice just a little bit. And I'm working with a lot of Companies that have that mindset to get more money to the farmer and help them do the stuff we're talking about doing.

[Agriculture Advocate]

Our town has 4,000 residents and one stoplight. The nearest airport, Starbucks, shopping mall, Whole Foods is two hours away in any direction. Without places like this and farmers like us, you'd be hungry, naked and sober. We are going to work with farmers in southeast Arkansas to educate them about the benefits of. Of growing sustainable rice. We're going to work with veterans, immigrants, limited resource, and socially disadvantaged farmers. Farmers that aren't so different from my family just a few generations ago. We will then implement, pay for practices such as alternate wetting and drying, cover crop, no till, and low till. We will then help them learn about and document their greenhouse gas benefits, monitor, measure, report, and verify them. Then market and sell that rice at a premium to help them realize the benefits of producing sustainable rice. The economic advantage.

[Jim Whitaker]

Let me tell you why that's important. There are 400 million acres of rice grown globally. It is the largest emitter of methane gas. It is the largest user of irrigation water. And our methods, if used, can reduce greenhouse gas by 50%, reduce water use by 50%, increase yields to feed a hungry world.

[Interviewer]

So let's say there's a farmer watching this and thinking like, I don't know much about these practices. Or you meet someone and they're like, how do I even begin to do this? What right now is the way that they learn to put some of these more sustainable practices to work.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

So you just gotta get plugged in and sometimes challenge the this is the way my dad always did it mentality.

[Interviewer]

What would your dad say to that?

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

My dad wouldn't even recognize the farm today if he was still alive. It's changed that much. I mean, when he retired and when my brother and I went back to the family farm, he.

[Sam Kass]

He

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

could ride around every day and tell us what was wrong with everything

[Jim Whitaker]

and then be happy and go home.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

But you could tell he was thrilled to have us there. And we immediately did the makeover to his farm. And he's like, up in arms. What are y' all doing? You're ruining that field. I don't think it should be done that way. And we just kept going. And in that fall, he said, that's prettiest rice I've ever seen. So it just. He didn't understand that sometimes you have to, you know, it's gonna look uglier before it looks better.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

That was rice farmer Jim Whitaker and his daughter, Jessica Whitaker Allen. You can see their full [e-mail] when we come back, the future of meat. On the show today, the future of food. I'm Anoush Zumarodi and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from npr. Stay with us.

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[Minouche Zamorodi]

It's the TED RADIO Hour from npr. I'm Minouche Zumarodi. On the show today, the complicated future of food. So as we've heard, staple crops like rice are big emitters of greenhouse gases, but even more so meat production. Growing and grazing animals takes a lot of resources. So what if it didn't have to?

[Isha Datar]

Yeah, there is so much we could potentially unlock by creating a world where we can farm cells for food.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

This is Isha Detar. She first started thinking about this 15 years ago in college.

[Isha Datar]

So I started as an undergrad student

at the University of Alberta.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Eisha was a cell biology major who really cared about the environment, but who also loved to eat meat.

[Isha Datar]

Yes, I really got into steak tartare. This is like 2008. I mean, I thought that was a bit precocious for someone in like undergrad.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And one day she saw a poster promoting a meat science class.

[Isha Datar]

She signed up meat404 I think it was called.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I'm sorry, I have to ask, what is a meat science class?

[Isha Datar]

Yeah, so in this class we learn all about what meat is, how muscle transforms into meat, the meat industry. And I just remember feeling like, oh my God, we all have to become vegetarian tomorrow or vegan.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Isha Datar]

And that lasted for a couple weeks, that idea. And then a few classes later we were just packing up our bags and our professor just mentions, very casually, he's like, oh, maybe one day we'll grow food from cells.

[Interviewer]

Oh, so you just kind of tossed that one out there.

[Isha Datar]

Yeah.

And I just, that was my real epiphany which was, oh my gosh, yes, absolutely, that is going to happen.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

That was all Eisha needed to hear. She was hooked on the idea of cultiv and ended up writing her final paper on exactly how to grow meat from cells in a lab to eat. Because the concept of growing protein cells, it had been around but applying it to food was pretty new.

[Isha Datar]

And so I wrote this paper really pulling from medical journals that were looking at, you know, growing skin tissue for burn victims, like growing cell culture, but for medical purposes. And I wrote about the idea of applying that to food.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

The paper was published in a peer reviewed journal in 2010. And a lot has happened since. Eisha has become a leader in the field of cellular agriculture. She's watched as billions of dollars have poured into cultivated meat startups and the science has accelerated. In 2013, a professor unveiled the following First Lab Grown hamburger.

[Sam Van Aken]

First Lab Grown burger has been cooked.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

It cost over $300,000 to make. In 2016, there was the first lab grown meatball.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

This is the first time a meatball has ever been cooked with beef cells.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And then the first cell based ribeye steak, the first lab grown salmon, and the first cultivated chicken nuggets.

[Isha Datar]

It tastes like chicken.

[Jessica Whitaker Allen]

Cuz it is chicken.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And in 2021, Isha told an excited Ted audience that cultivated meat could be coming to a dinner plate near you.

[Isha Datar]

To me, this chicken nuggets, this hamburger, this sausage, all made from cells instead of animals, aren't just fast food products, they're our ticket to a new food system. Here's how it works. Rather than raise a whole chicken with beaks, feathers, sentience, we grow the meat directly from muscle cells. We take a small biopsy from a living animal and then extract the cells of interest, muscle cells in particular, love to attach onto surfaces. It helps them grow and elongate into those long muscle fibers that we're so familiar with. So we might provide a scaffolding material for those cells to adhere onto. And then of course, we have to feed the cells something. So we put them in a liquid medium that provides all the nutrients that these cells need to grow and divide. Lastly, the cells on the scaffold in the medium all grow within a bioreactor, which is kind of like a large stainless steel tank, looks a lot like brewing equipment, and can be just as big as well. And the bioreactor really just provides that constant, stable environment that those cells need to flourish in. And after those cells get a chance to mature into muscle fibers, we might harvest the cells and the tissues and then turn them into nuggets. Now, this wouldn't just be better for chickens and cows and pigs and the people who have to farm them and slaughter them. This could be better for the whole world. I mean, if this all works, it's our once in a lifetime opportunity to get a second chance at agriculture to do things better and to learn from our mistakes.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

At this point, some of you might be wondering, when can I buy this meat? Well, it might be a while, because in the last few years, cultivated meat has gotten a reality check. Startups have come and gone. The FDA and USDA gave their approval in 2023, but several states have banned it. Bans that were upheld in court. And in the rest of the country, you won't find cultivated meat in grocery stores either. You'll have to go to Singapore. In 2024, it became the first country to sell cultivated chicken. But those products still mostly contain plant based fillers, which is why they're affordable. Eisha's learning that lab grown animal products have a long road ahead.

[Isha Datar]

So around the world, there are a lot of companies that are doing little tastings here and there of their cultivated meat product. The product on the market in Singapore is made of 3% cells, 97% plant cell stuff. And that's actually exciting. Like, that's actually a really great step forward. It just feels like disappointment because it's been pitted against this expectation that was set way too high. And that expectation is cool as a future forward, like holy grail expectation of where we could be one day. But that's also the hardest thing you could possibly do.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

And is that because it's so hard to actually cultivate animal protein? Like, what's the big challenge here?

[Isha Datar]

Yeah, it is incredibly hard to cultivate animal protein into these kind of 3D cuts like a chicken breast or a steak. In 2017, I was able to taste a steak chip, like very thin, crispy. The reason why it was a chip is because cells grow really well in two dimensions, like in these very thin layers. Getting them to grow in three dimensions is a lot harder.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

There was a point where just even getting the opportunity to take a taste of this was nearly impossible. And if you did get a taste, that bite morsel would have been worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Right.

[Isha Datar]

It's still, it's pretty much is still the same.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Huh. So I was at a TED event recently where I had a lettuce wrap with cultivated chicken in was definitely not 100% because I think that would have been too expensive.

[Isha Datar]

So there's some skepticism there as well. Is like, is this product actually going to be viable in the market in the long term? You know, it's a big question.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Yeah, I mean, no offense Eisha, but

[Interviewer]

like that is far less sexier than

[Minouche Zamorodi]

the simple headline Lab meat is going to save us from climate change. Here's a big juicy hamburger.

[Isha Datar]

I know if you have ideas for what, like tech, like should we let me know. But this is the invisible work that really moves biotech along. It's not going to be one company that brings it to market in a way that changes the world. It's not going to be 10 companies, it's not going to be one university. It's going to be an entire new scientific discipline because there's a long technical path ahead of us.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

I guess I'm surprised because like when you gave your TED talk in 2021, you seemed super optimistic, excited, really talking about the potential behind cultivated meat.

[Isha Datar]

Yes, I actually, I am still, I am optimistic about it. I think it's an incredibly exciting idea. I don't necessarily know if meat is the thing that's going to change the world. I'm very fixated on this idea of growing food from cells. More broadly, meat is one such kind of product. But it's this again, this kind of holy grail product. There's a lot of interesting things that we might discover in farming cells for food that aren't meat but make a huge difference in the near term.

By farming cells, we could actually proactively envision agriculture for a climate changed world. We could theoretically grow anything that might come from plants or animals, from cells instead of vanilla. Doesn't have to be rainforest farmed. Egg whites don't have to come with a yolk. Foie gras can be completely cruelty free and Leather and silk don't have to come off the back of an animal or the home of a silkworm. In fact, we already consume cellular agriculture products in our everyday lives, just in super small quantities. Several vitamins, flavors, and enzymes are already made in cell cultures. In fact, rennet, which is the set of enzymes used to turn milk into curds and whey for cheese making, used to come from the stomach lining of the fourth stomach of calves, baby cows. And in 1990, a cell cultured version hit the market. A version of the key enzyme chymosin. And today, only 30 ish years later, 90% of rennet used for cheesemaking came from a bioreactor instead of a calf.

We're used to transforming food with biotechnology. It's arguably like the oldest technology we have is when we started fermenting foods and we started making beer and kimchi and pickles and yogurts and cheeses and all that kind of stuff. Like that was us transforming foods with cell cultures. We could have never looked at a glass of milk and said we wanted it to be stinky with, like, veins of mold going through it and hard and it melts.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

You mean like cheese is basically what you just described in the most disgusting way possible?

[Isha Datar]

Okay, would someone have envisioned cheese from scratch had they never had cheese before? And so similarly, if we looked at milk and couldn't have envisioned cheese, today we're looking at meat, and we're just trying to make meat again, but maybe we can make the cheese of meat. That is such an exciting vision for me is unlocking the power of cell culture to just increase food culture instead of replicating a culture we already have.

[Interviewer]

Okay, last question.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Do you still love steak tartare?

[Isha Datar]

I do still love steak tartare. I've gone through long bouts of not eating meat, vegan, vegetarian, all that kind of stuff. But yeah, no, I'm still that conscious and conflicted carnivore that I was when I got into this.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

That was Isha Datar, executive director of the nonprofit New Harvest. You can see her full [e-mail]. We started today's show by talking about how we can preserve many of the foods we love, from crab cakes to the Georgia peach. We want to end the show with an artistic twist on the future of agriculture, Specifically, stone fruit. Artist Sam Van Aken works at the intersection of botany, conservation, and creative expression. Here he is on the TED stage in 2019, talking about his project, the Tree of 40 Fruit.

[Sam Van Aken]

100 years ago, there were 2,000 varieties of peaches, nearly 2,000 different varieties of plums and almost 800 named varieties of apples growing in the United States today. Only a fraction of those remain, and what is left is threatened by industrialization of agriculture and disease and climate change. The Tree of 40 Fruit is a single tree that grows 40 different varieties of stone fruit. So that's peaches, plums, apricots, nectarines, and cherries all growing on one tree. It's designed to be a normal looking tree throughout the majority of the year until spring when it blossoms in pink and white, and then in summer, bears a multitude of different fruit. I began the project for purely artistic reasons. I wanted to change the reality of the everyday and, to be honest, create this startling moment when people would see this tree blossom in all of these different colors and bear all of these different fruit. I create the tree of 40 fruit through the process of grafting. I'll collect cuttings in winter, store them, and then graft them onto the ends of branches in spring. In fact, almost all fruit trees are grafted because the seed of a fruit tree is a genetic variant of the parent. So that when we find a variety that we really like, the way that we propagate it is by taking a cutting off of one tree and putting it onto another. This is definitely not a sport of immediate gratification. It takes a year to know if a graft has succeeded. It takes two to three years to know if it produces fruit, and it takes up to eight years to create just one of the trees. Each of the varieties grafted to The Tree of 40 Fruit has a slightly different form and a slightly different color. As the project continues, it's been conservation by way of the art world, as I've been asked to create these in different locations. What I'll do is I'll research varieties that originated or were historically grown in that area. I'll source them locally and graft them to the tree so that it becomes an agricultural history of the area where they're located. These are plums from just one tree of 40 fruit in one week in August. Several years into the project, I was told that I had one of the largest collection of these fruit in the eastern United States, which, as an artist, is absolutely terrifying. But in many ways, I didn't know what I had. I discovered that the majority of the varieties I had were heirloom varieties. Several of the varieties dated back thousands and thousands of years. And finding out how rare they were, I became obsessed with trying to preserve them. So I set out to create an orchard to make these fruit available to the public. So Governor's island is a former naval base that was given to the City of New York in 2000 and it opened up all of this land just a five minute ferry ride from New York. And they invited me to create a project that we're calling the Open Orchard that'll bring back fruit varieties that haven't been grown in New York for over a century. Currently in progress, the Open orchard will be 50 multi grafted trees that possess 200 heirloom and antique fruit varieties. So these are varieties that originated or were historically grown in the region. Varieties like the early strawberry apple, which originated on 13th street and 3rd Avenue. Since a fruit tree can't be preserved by seed, the Open Orchard will act like a living gene bank or an archive of these fruit. Like the Tree of 40 Fruit. It'll be experiential. It'll also be symbolic. Most importantly, it's going to invite people to participate in conservation and to learn more about their food. Growing up on a farm, I thought I understood agriculture and I didn't want anything to do with it. So I became an artist. But I have to admit that it's something within my own DNA. And I don't think that I'm the only one. 100 years ago, we were all much more closely tied to the culture, the cultivation and the story of our food. And we've been separated from that. The Open Orchard creates the opportunity not just to reconnect to this unknown past, but a way for us to consider what the future of our food could be. Thank you.

[Minouche Zamorodi]

Sam Van Aken is an artist and an associate professor at the School of Art at Syracuse University. And you can still visit the Open Orchard Project on Governor's island in New York. Thank you so much for listening to our show about the future of food. This episode was produced by James Delahousy, Rachel Faulkner White, Matthew Cloutier, Hersha Nahada and Chloe Weiner. It was edited by Sanaz Meshkin Poor and me. Our production staff at NPR also includes Fiona Guren and Katie Monteleone. Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. Our audio engineers were Neil Tvolt, Robert Rodriguez, Gilly Moon and David Greenberg. Our theme music was written by Ramtin Arablouei. Our partners at TED are Chris Anderson, Roxanne Hylash, Alejandra Salazar and Daniela Balorezzo. I'm Minouche Zamorodi and you've been listening to the TED radio hour from NPR.

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