I taught rats to drive. They taught me to enjoy the ride | Kelly Lambert

Summary

Podcast Summary

TED Talks Daily: "I taught rats to drive. They taught me to enjoy the ride" | Kelly Lambert

Date: March 18, 2026
Speaker: Dr. Kelly Lambert, behavioral neuroscientist
Event: TEDx RVA Youth 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Kelly Lambert, a behavioral neuroscientist renowned for her work on negative emotions and depression, shares how teaching rats to drive tiny cars led her to deeper insights about joy, anticipation, and resilience. By exploring the emotional lives of rats—particularly their capacity to experience joy and optimism—Lambert reflects on how these findings offer lessons for human happiness, hope, and mental health.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

From Studying Depression to Discovering Joy

• Starting Point: Lambert spent most of her career studying negative emotions like fear, anxiety, and depression ([01:35]).
• The Pivot: Observing “little rat joy” in the lab, she wondered: Can a neuroscientist study joy in animals? ([00:49], [01:02], [05:41]).

Behaviorceuticals: The Power of Effort-Based Rewards

• Concept: Introducing “behaviorceuticals”—intentional behaviors that alter brain chemistry for positive mental health ([02:15]).
• Experiment: Rats were trained to dig for Froot Loops (physical effort), which built emotional resilience and neuroplasticity ([02:55]).
  • Memorable moment: Lambert dubbed the control group “trust fund rats” because they received rewards without effort—and didn’t show the same benefits ([03:31]).

The Driving Rats: Agency, Skill, and Outreach

• Teaching Rats to Drive: Lambert’s team trained rats to operate rodent-operated vehicles (ROVs) for rewards, studying agency and skill learning ([04:30]).
• Science Outreach: Some rats became “rodent celebrities,” featured in documentaries and news segments ([05:13]).
• Pandemic Revelation: With campus empty, Lambert observed the rats’ excited reactions to her presence, sparking her pursuit of animal joy ([05:19], [05:41]).

The Science of Joy and Anticipation

• Defining Joy in Animals: “A brief and intense burst of activity associated with a favored event or object” ([06:15]).
• Anticipation in Rats: Inspired by studies showing dopamine increases both when rats receive a reward and anticipate it ([06:38]).

  “It seemed that the brain was interpreting the reward and the time before the reward in a similar manner.” — Kelly Lambert ([06:52])

• The UPPERs Protocol: “Unpredictable Positive Event Responses”—exposing rats to three fun surprises daily, in unpredictable order, to generate joy and anticipation ([07:16]):
  • Novel objects (like a LEGO block)
  • Waiting to access a reward
  • “Rat park” exploration time

Early Findings: Optimism, Sex Differences, and Pleasure

• Behavioral Shifts: Upper-trained males shifted from pessimistic to optimistic strategies in the “rat optimism task.” Females remained steady—Lambert notes sex differences are important in such research ([08:23]).
• Opioid Link?: A student observed rats’ tails sticking straight up, a response linked in literature to opioid exposure—suggesting potentially profound neurochemical effects from positive behavioral experiences ([09:01]).

Classic & Contemporary Parallels: Hope, Resilience, and Anticipation

• Kurt Richter’s Research: Wild rats quickly drowned in turbulent water, but after a brief rescue experience, they survived much longer; Lambert interprets this as “the hope of rescue,” underscoring the importance of hope for survival ([09:36]).
• Human Correlates: Make-A-Wish Foundation research—children who knew what their wish was (and could anticipate it) showed improved physical and mental health outcomes ([11:44]).

The Science of Positive Emotion

• Neurobiology: Positive anticipation activates brain areas involved in reward, feeling, planning, and movement ([12:56]).
• Cultural Reflection: English lacks a word for the anticipation of something positive (unlike the German “Vorfreude”); perhaps culture undervalues positive anticipation ([13:22], [13:42]).

On Guilt, Pleasure, and the Value of Joy

“Why does it have to be a guilty pleasure? Far from an indulgence, it’s looking like these pleasure and positive events are important and critical for healthy maintenance of our brains.” — Kelly Lambert ([14:01])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Effort and Reward:

  “It seemed to be more than just the reward. It’s our relationship with the reward and perhaps the ability to control these rewards.” — Kelly Lambert ([03:31])

• On Joyful Anticipation:

  “It really makes me wonder what our founding fathers knew when they emphasized life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” — Kelly Lambert ([06:57])

• On Rat Tails and Opioids:

  “Maybe we’re doing something with behaviorceuticals that has been done with pharmaceuticals.” ([09:06])

• On Human Parallels:

  “There’s a lot of research to suggest that, yes, those negative emotions are important to understand, but these positive emotions are as well.” ([12:34])

• On Culture and Pleasure:

  “Why does it have to be a guilty pleasure? Far from an indulgence... these pleasure and positive events are important and critical for healthy maintenance of our brains.” ([14:01])

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Key Segment Timestamps

• 00:49 – Realization: noticing “little rat joy”
• 02:15–03:31 – Behaviorceuticals and effort-based reward experiments
• 04:30–05:13 – Teaching rats to drive ROVs and science outreach
• 05:19–06:03 – Pandemic lab experience; rats display excitement (“rat joy”)
• 06:15 – Definition of joy in non-human animals
• 06:38–07:16 – Dopamine, anticipation, and experimental protocol
• 08:23–09:01 – Rat optimism task and sex differences; discovery of “opioid” tail
• 09:36–11:44 – Kurt Richter’s “hope” study and parallel Make-A-Wish research
• 12:56 – Neurobiology of joy and positive anticipation
• 13:42–14:17 – Language and culture: “Vorfreude” and rethinking pleasure
• 14:23–15:10 – Driving rats prefer fun over efficiency; Lambert’s joy at their choice
• 15:31 – “They taught me to enjoy the ride”

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Final Lessons & Reflections

• Agency and effort foster resilience and optimism—across species.
• Hope and positive anticipation not only shape behavior but also bring measurable health benefits.
• We should reframe pleasure and joy as essential—rather than “guilty”—for mental well-being.
• Sometimes, as Lambert says, “the rats can teach us as much as we teach them”—about science, but also about enjoying the ride.

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For Further Exploration

See the video for the rats driving their cars and Dr. Lambert’s joyful reaction at [15:15].

Learn more about Ted’s curation at www.ted.com/CurationGuidelines.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hu. I admit it's not a question I ask myself every day, but have you ever wondered what a rat can teach us about being human? In today's talk, behavioral neuroscientist Kelly Lambert, who spent much of her career studying negative emotions and depression, shares how to understand joy and anticipation through studying small but remarkably intelligent rats.

[B]

One morning I walked into the lab, and I saw these rats run up

[C]

to the front of the cage, and

[B]

they were reaching their little arms out

[C]

and jumping up and down, and it

[B]

looked like they were excited to see

[C]

me, like little rat joy.

[B]

And on the heels of all the negative emotion research that I had conducted, I wanted to investigate it.

[C]

I wanted to know more.

[B]

But could a neuroscientist study something as complex as joy?

[A]

From teaching them to drive tiny cars. Yes, drive. To studying their joy when anticipating positive experiences, she explores where happiness might come from. And that is coming up right after a short break. And now, our TED Talk of the Day.

[C]

When I first started teaching rats to drive cars, I never dreamed that those little rodents would steer me toward a surprisingly big discovery. A lesson about the importance of joy in our lives. It turns out that we had a lot to teach each other. But I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm a behavioral neuroscientist. I'm interested in brains, behavior, and environment and how they influence one another. For most of my career, I focused on the negative emotions. Fear, stress, anxiety, symptoms of depression, and for good reason. Depression rates remain unacceptably high, and recent reports suggest that deaths of despair, deaths related to suicide and addiction and loneliness are on the rise in the United States. Even though we've invested a lot of research and resources toward understanding mental illness, it seems that we have a long way to go. Perhaps we need some fresh perspectives in this area. Several years ago, when I was writing my book Lifting Depression, I started to investigate the connections between reward and physical effort. I introduced this term, behaviorceuticals, the idea that we can intentionally change our behavior to alter neurochemistry in therapeutic ways. If you have enjoyed knitting or cooking or producing a piece of art, you. You've experienced your own dose of behaviorceuticals. But that's anecdotal evidence. I needed to take this to the lab and consult with my research colleagues. That's the laboratory rats. So we trained them to exert physical effort for Fruit Loops. And that's the currency of My lab, they love Froot Loops, so they work for Fruit Loops. So we had about five weeks where the animals had to connect physical effort, digging up those Fruit Loops. And at the end of that time, we saw that there was enhanced evidence of emotional resilience, more effective coping strategies, and even signs of neuroplasticity. This idea of the brain changing in response to the changing demands of the life of the animal, and that's traditionally thought to be good and healthy for the brain. Now, when we compared these animals to the control group, this was a group that received the same number of Froot Loops, but they didn't have to work for it. We called this the trust fund rats group. And we did not see the benefits in these animals. So it seemed to be more than just the reward. It's our relationship with the reward and perhaps the ability to control these rewards. So this was interesting and we did a good bit of research on what we call effort based reward protocol and found some interesting findings.

[B]

But I still found myself going back

[C]

to these negative emotions, especially chronic stress, investigating all the ways things can go wrong with brains. But it took the rats to point me in the direction of looking at what could go right. Let me provide a little context here. So those rats that I talked about,

[B]

the driving rats, in the beginning of the talk, we originally trained them to

[C]

drive to understand more about agency and a sense of control and skill acquisition on their brains and behavior. And so we taught them to drive these rodent operated vehicles, or ROVs as we call them. And we found some interesting findings and we published it. But we quickly realized that this program

[B]

of research had a lot of potential for science outreach. And this is something that we really need today. So we decided to keep a group

[C]

of rats trained up on driving and so that we could continue with this science outreach.

[B]

And they became little rodent celebrities.

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They were in documentaries and newscasts and podcasts. And that was all great.

[B]

But I remember during the pandemic when all the students were gone, it was

[C]

very quiet on campus, and a few colleagues and I were taking turns going into the lab to take care of the animals. And I vividly remember this one morning

[B]

I walked into the lab and, and I saw these rats run up to

[C]

the front of the cage and they

[B]

were reaching their little arms out and

[C]

jumping up and down.

[B]

And it looked like they were excited

[C]

to see me, like little rat joy.

[B]

And it made me excited that they were excited to see me. And on the heels of all the negative emotion research that I had conducted through the years, and all the negativity of the pandemic, I decided right then and there that whatever that was I was seeing, I wanted to investigate it.

[C]

I wanted to know more.

[B]

But could a neuroscientist study something as complex as joy in a rat? I went to the literature and was encouraged. I even found a definition of joy in non human animals.

[C]

A brief and intense burst of activity associated with a favored event or object.

[B]

So when my husband and I would

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ask our little dog Brody if he wanted to go for a walk or

[B]

just showed him the leash and saw him running around in circles and jumping

[C]

up and down and yelping endlessly, that

[B]

seemed to fit the definition of joy. If I could see it in a dog.

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I was encouraged that we could see it in the rats.

[B]

But I still needed a plan. I landed on this idea of anticipation the time before an award because I knew that we could manipulate that time in the laboratory. So I was encouraged and really fascinated by some research conducted by scientists where they trained rats to press a bar to have cocaine delivered directly to their brains. And when the cocaine hit the brain, their natural kind of feel good neurochemical known as dopamine, would rise. But what was even more interesting was when that rat would approach that bar before the cocaine was there, you'd also see this rise in dopamine. It seemed that the brain was interpreting the reward and the time before the reward and in a similar manner. It really makes me wonder what our founding fathers knew when they emphasized life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It's really interesting. So we had an idea, anticipation. We still needed to translate this into something that we could use in the laboratory. We came up with this protocol that we referred to as unpredictable positive event responses, or uppers, in keeping with this behavior suitable. So this was pretty simple. For about five weeks, we introduced the rats to three good things, fun things every day, and an unpredictable order and time. So they were exposed to a lego block, and they had to wait 15 minutes to get that fruit loop or sunflower seed. They had to wait patiently to shell it. Or they were placed in a transport cage and wheeled across the hallway into another loop space in the lab, where they got to play around, run around in what we called rat park. And they had to wait in that transport cage for three minutes. We were encouraged that we were onto something. When we started to observe the rats in that transport cage and we saw brief bursts of behavior running around, they seemed so excited. So we were encouraged that indeed we were influencing something that looked like joy or at least positive anticipation in these rats. So what are we finding? The results are still rolling in, but we're starting to see some trends if we expose these rats to a rat optimism task. And yes, there is such a thing. We've seen that the males shift from a pessimistic strategy to an optimistic strategy. But we don't see that with the females. They remain more reality based in both groups. Now, I should mention that the control group for this bit of research is a group that receives all the good things at once, so they don't have that anticipation period there. So we're not sure if that generalizes to humans about the females, but we need to pursue that further. But the other results we see both in males and females, and it is important to look at sex differences when we're doing this research. So both males and females show increased and intense exploration, as if they think they're going to find something good when they're exploring a novel environment. So we were very encouraged by these results. And surprisingly, one day a student ran into my office and said, Dr. Lambert, why are the upper trained rats tails sticking straight up? I've been working with rats for over three decades and I've never seen this or heard of it. But I went to the literature and I saw that some researchers would inject an opioid into the animals and their tails would go up. And I thought, oh my goodness, maybe we're doing something with behaviorceuticals that have has been done with pharmaceuticals. So this is something that we need to explore further. This research made me think about some classic research conducted in the 1950s by Kurt Richter at Johns Hopkins University. He was interested in swim behavior between lab rats and wild rats, and he had some interesting laboratory conditions for this. But in the swim tank, it was turbulent water, so it was challenging. And he saw that the lab rats could swim for hours or days. They're great swimmers. But the wild rats, when he trapped them, brought them in and put them in the tank, they sank, immediately dying. And he was shocked by this because it's tough living out there in the wild and he thought those wild rats would be more resilient. He said it looked like they were just giving up. But when he thought about the experiences of the lab rats and the wild rats, he realized that those lab rats had been periodically picked up by human hands and, and their conditions had changed. So there was some hope that if you didn't like what was going on now, it could change. But the wild rats hadn't had that experience. So he devised this intervention where his assistants would pick up the wild rats from the restraining cage or from the water just once or twice. And he ran the study again, and he found that a majority of those wild rats at that time, they went from dying to surviving. And he said it was the hope of rescue that led them down that path. It makes you think, is this important for humans? There is a good bit of research to suggest that hope and positive attitudes are important for health and longevity. One of my favorite studies was conducted with Israeli children who were very ill, and they were part of the Make a Wish foundation program. And the researchers monitored their general physical health and mental health outcomes from the time they were told specifically what their wish was to the time the wish was granted. And that was about five months. So they could extend that anticipatory time. And they found that these outcomes improved to suggest that maybe their quality of life during that time was enhanced. And when they compared it to the children who were in the queue to get a wish, but they hadn't been told the specifics, so they really couldn't wish specifically and hope specifically for that to happen. But I'm sure, hopefully when those children

[C]

receive the details of their wish, they

[B]

also benefited from this. So there's a lot of research to suggest that, yes, those negative emotions are important to understand, but these positive emotions are as well. And when we step back and look at the brain and everything that's going on during positive anticipation and joy, and

[C]

you can see that there are a lot of different areas of the brain

[B]

that are on board or activated during this time. Areas involved with processing, reward and monitoring, internal feelings and planning and movement are all activated during this time of joy and positive anticipation. So with all of this evidence, behavioral, anecdotal, neurological, suggesting that positive emotions are important, this isn't always reflected in our culture. It's really interesting to me that we have a word for anticipating something negative. It's dread. But to my knowledge, I don't know that we have a word related to anticipating something positive, but in the German language, they do. It's vorfreide.

[C]

It means joyful anticipation.

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Perhaps it's time for us to step

[C]

up and come up with our own word for joyful anticipation.

[B]

And personally, I find myself going back to this puritan work ethic too often

[C]

where we equate busyness and hard work with virtue.

[B]

And if I find an hour or two to watch Netflix or something I enjoy, I often describe it as a guilty pleasure. But why does it have to be a guilty pleasure? Far from an indulgence, it's looking like these pleasure and positive events are important

[C]

and critical for healthy maintenance of our brains. Let me end by going back to those driving rats.

[B]

A lot of people ask me, Kelly,

[C]

do they like to drive? Do they enjoy driving?

[B]

And my response has typically been, well,

[C]

I can't give them a questionnaire.

[B]

I don't really know. I think they do.

[C]

But we could ask them from a behavioral perspective. And that's what we did recently.

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We gave them a choice of walking to the fruit loop tree. That's what they drive to in a more efficient path. Or they could take a detour and backtrack to and jump in the car and drive to the rewards.

[C]

And I couldn't wait to see what they would do.

[B]

And what we found was a majority

[C]

of the animals did indeed backtrack, take a tour and jump into the car

[B]

and drive to their fruit loop rewards. And if you saw a human jumping in the background, that was me jumping for joy.

[C]

Seeing rats choose plain pleasure or fun over efficiency.

[A]

Hey, y', all, it's Elise here jumping in real quick to say that at this point in the talk, Kelly shares a video of a rat driving a car. You can see Kelly in the background enthusiastically jumping up and down with excitement.

[B]

I taught rats to drive cars, but.

[C]

But they taught me to enjoy the ride. Thank

[A]

you. That was Kelly Lambert speaking at TEDx RVA Youth in 2025. If you're curious about Ted's curation, find out more at Ted.comCurationGuidelines and that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This talk was fact checked by the TED research team and produced and edited by our team, Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Greene, Lucy Little, and Tansika Songmanivong. This episode was mixed by Lucy Little. Additional support from Emma Tobner and Daniela Ballaraizo. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed. Thanks for listening.