Beyond the Talk: Lei Cheng in conversation with TED Talks Daily

Summary

Podcast Summary: Beyond the Talk: Lei Cheng in Conversation with TED Talks Daily

Introduction

In the gripping episode titled "Beyond the Talk: Lei Cheng in Conversation with TED Talks Daily," hosted by Elise Hu, listeners are treated to an in-depth discussion with Lei Cheng, a resilient journalist who endured over three years of wrongful imprisonment in China. Released on June 3, 2025, this episode delves into Lei’s harrowing experiences, her profound insights on freedom, and the pivotal role of journalism in today’s turbulent world.

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Lei Cheng’s Background and Imprisonment

Lei Cheng begins by sharing her harrowing journey, highlighting the brutality of her incarceration and its profound impact on her perception of freedom.

"I received free accommodation from the Chinese government for over three years for so-called leaking state secrets overseas at the worst time for Australia-China relations." ([03:40])

Lei recounts the severe conditions she endured, describing the detention as "hell" and drawing a stark contrast between her imprisonment and her previous life.

"Freedom is wasted on the free. You can be paralyzed by choice. You can't comprehend the vastness or the preciousness." ([05:00])

This realization became the cornerstone of her TED Talk, emphasizing that freedom is not merely a given but a precious state that requires vigilant nurturing.

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Understanding Freedom: Theoretical and Practical Perspectives

Elise Hu and Lei Cheng explore the nuanced understanding of freedom, contrasting its theoretical ideals with practical realities.

Lei discusses how her ordeal reshaped her appreciation for daily freedoms:

"I marvel at every little freedom that we have because for three years and two months, it was all brutally taken away from me." ([10:48])

Elise probes further into this transformation, asking Lei to compare her pre- and post-incarceration views on freedom. Lei emphasizes the importance of recognizing and cherishing freedoms that are often overlooked.

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Risks and Responsibilities in Defending Freedom

The conversation shifts to the concept of state defense of freedom, where Lei expresses skepticism about governmental roles in safeguarding liberties.

"I think that's a fraught concept. It can be abused in so many ways. I prefer to think of these grand ideas as concrete little steps that we can all practice day to day." ([12:19])

Lei warns against the potential for freedom fighters to become dictators once they gain power, advocating instead for individual actions that respect others' thoughts and promote kindness.

"It's more important to respect others' thoughts, opinions, as long as they don't incite hate. And it's more important for me to show kindness even with people who may try to hurt me." ([13:09])

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The Role of Journalism in Modern Society

As seasoned journalists, both Elise and Lei delve into the critical role journalism plays in preserving freedom amidst rising polarization and authoritarianism.

"I wish more centrists could be braver. And I wish media organizations didn't have to make the tough choice between survival and clickbait." ([17:20])

Lei highlights the struggles faced by media organizations, particularly in Australia, where economic pressures threaten journalistic integrity.

"We have to keep at it, one accurate and nuanced article at a time. And through meeting and fostering trust between us and our readers, viewers, anyone we meet." ([18:56])

She underscores the necessity of maintaining trust and delivering truthful, balanced reporting as essential to combating misinformation and supporting societal freedom.

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Personal Reflections and Advice

Lei offers heartfelt advice to individuals feeling trapped by their own thoughts or societal expectations, drawing from her personal experiences of imprisonment.

"Please don't wait until you're sitting in a prison cell like I was, or on your deathbed. And not even to know what you missed. That would be a tragedy greater than any other." ([19:16])

She encourages people to fully utilize their freedoms, urging them to think expansively and authentically before circumstances potentially strip these liberties away.

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Choosing Freedom Over Consumerism

In a thought-provoking segment, Lei challenges the modern conflation of consumer choice with true freedom.

"I think we do. And in a way, the more choice you have, the less freedom." ([16:06])

She argues that an abundance of choices can lead to paralysis and a lack of genuine autonomy, as individuals become enslaved to external influences shaping their decisions.

"So always think about, why am I thinking and feeling this way? Is this me? And too many choices stop that conversation from happening." ([16:34])

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Lightning Round: Getting to Know Lei Cheng

The episode features a rapid-fire segment where Lei shares personal tidbits, offering listeners a glimpse into her life beyond journalism.

• Innovation: "Love it." ([20:30])
• Something New in 2025: "Dating apps." ([20:31])
• Hobbies: "Food. I tend to just have just love everything." ([21:18])
• Most Treasured Memory: "Singing in the cell." ([22:18])
• Perfect Day: "A day filled with food and cooking, going to a produce market, playing some soccer, making up skits with my children, writing and listening to all sorts of music and hugs and kisses." ([22:28])
• Worries and Hopes: "I'm worried about my kids not learning how to communicate interpersonally, but I'm also hopeful that they might be a new generation of thinkers and communicators and innovators that we can't imagine right now." ([23:10])
• Small Gratitude: "Flowers and spring in Vancouver. My God, with all that rain, your flowers are just absolutely gorgeous." ([23:50])

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Conclusion

The conversation between Elise Hu and Lei Cheng offers a profound exploration of freedom, resilience, and the indispensable role of journalism in safeguarding societal liberties. Lei’s personal journey from imprisonment to advocacy underscores the fragile nature of freedom and the collective responsibility to nurture and protect it. Her insights serve as a clarion call for individuals and media alike to engage thoughtfully and compassionately in the pursuit of a freer future.

Key Takeaways:

• Freedom Requires Vigilance: Freedom is not an inherent state but a precious condition that needs continuous nurturing and appreciation.
• Journalism's Pivotal Role: In an era of misinformation and polarization, responsible journalism remains crucial in preserving democratic freedoms.
• Personal Responsibility: Individuals must recognize and exercise their freedoms authentically, avoiding the pitfalls of consumerism and external manipulation.
• Resilience and Hope: Even after severe repression, the human spirit can find ways to rebuild and advocate for broader societal change.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Freedom is wasted on the free." — Lei Cheng ([05:00])
• "I think we do [confuse consumer choice for freedom]. And in a way, the more choice you have, the less freedom." — Lei Cheng ([16:06])
• "Please don't wait until you're sitting in a prison cell like I was, or on your deathbed." — Lei Cheng ([19:16])

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Final Thoughts

This episode of TED Talks Daily not only sheds light on Lei Cheng’s extraordinary experiences but also invites listeners to reflect deeply on the essence of freedom and the collective efforts needed to uphold it. Through her compelling narrative and insightful dialogue with Elise Hu, Lei Cheng inspires a renewed commitment to valuing and defending the freedoms that define our humanity.

Transcript

[Elise Hu]

Hey, TED Talks Daily listeners, it's Elise. Thank you for making this show part of your daily routine. We really appreciate it and we want to make it even better for you. So we put together a quick survey and we'd love to hear your thoughts. It's listener survey time. It only takes a few minutes, but it really helps us shape the show and get to know you, our listeners, so much better. Head to the episode description to find the link to the listener survey with. We would really appreciate you doing it. Thank you so much for taking the time to help the show. You're listening to TED Talks Daily where we bring you new ideas and conversations to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hu. Freedom is a flower. It needs to be nurtured with water and sunlight and thoughtful care. It's not a given that it will grow or survive all on its own. Journalists Lay Cheng knows this firsthand. For more than three years, Lei was imprisoned by China on false accusations of supplying state secrets overseas. Today, she has a simple but powerful you have to tend to your freedom and it can't be taken for granted. After Lei's talk, she and I sat down to think about freedom in theory and in practice. We also talk about the role of journalism in helping preserve our freedoms in an increasingly turbulent world. Now at Verizon, we have some big.

[Lei Cheng]

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[Lei Cheng]

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[Lei Cheng]

Yes, chef. This is so nice.

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[Lei Cheng]

I'm very energized by the reception and it's very empowering to have lost my voice, my identity, lost everything for so long. I love TED and I love our lineup of awesome speakers who all have years of experience on their subjects. My talk is about what I didn't have for a long time. And as Claire told you, I received free accommodation from the Chinese government for over three years for so called leaking state secrets overseas at the worst time for Australia China relations. And the first phase was called rsdl, Chinese spelling for hell. Then in detention, the sort that makes jail seem like Ibiza. And it was through that ordeal, call it the Wonder Diet, that I realized freedom is wasted on the free. Let me explain. You can be paralyzed by choice. You can't comprehend the vastness or the preciousness. So how do you make freedom count when you're lucky enough to have it? To start what it felt like to be not free and then to reclaim a lot of that and in fact with the TED audience too, magnify not just my voice but that of others wrongfully incarcerated in China and in other countries. And to tell people that even while China seduces with sophistication of technology and seemingly stable prosperity, that there are these dark corners in which repression and torture take place. And I would love to for people to take a nuanced approach to my story as opposed to, oh my God, that is so awful. China is evil. Don't go to China, you know, bash the nearest Chinese person you see, that would Be the exact opposite of what I want to see. I want people to understand that at the same time, we call that abuse out, we can still appreciate Chinese culture and Chinese industriousness and creativity.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Would you ever go to China again?

[Lei Cheng]

It's a bit like asking a domestic violence victim whether I'd go sleep with the husband who kidnapped me for three years again. But my stock answer to this, this is the most asked question. And to be honest, I used to find it a bit strange why people ask it. But yes, if I felt safe enough and yes, if I felt welcome enough. And right now they're still making up lies about me on the Chinese Internet. And safety wise, certainly not, because what I'm saying today is going to be.

[Elise Hu]

Held as another round.

[Lei Cheng]

Yeah. Espionage law.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, that'll be some other round. Let's talk about your beginnings, because we are both journalists. I'd love to know why you wanted to get into journalism in the first place.

[Lei Cheng]

I'd always liked writing as a lonely only child and fugly teenager. It was my escape, my therapy, and I always liked to know what was happening in the world and to tell other people about it. But I was actually five years as a bored, unfulfilled accountant before I made the brave switch to journalism.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, wow. So you had a completely different career and then pivoted.

[Lei Cheng]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

How did you pivot? Like, did you study, did you go to school or did you just kind of get a job in journalism? Tell us a little bit about your career.

[Lei Cheng]

Pivot out of parental pressure. I studied commerce and became an accountant. But I hated what I was doing and wanted to use my bilingual skills. I'd always enjoyed being that medium between two worlds. And when I saw a job for a business analyst in eastern China, and this was back in year 2000 when China had just joined the WTO and it really wanted to globalize, I jumped at the chance. And once there, I saw firsthand how state owned companies were operated, that is, with very little accountability and transparency. And then I saw another opportunity at then what was known as CCTV 9, which was the English channel of the state broadcaster and got my start there. But a year and a half later was approached by CNBC to become their China correspondent. So that was how I got into TV journalism.

[Elise Hu]

Amazing. And we're glad that you did.

[Lei Cheng]

I wasn't glad for a little while.

[Elise Hu]

Of course not. Of course not. Your talk centers around this notion of freedom. I'd love to know how you thought about freedom before being incarcerated and how you're thinking about it now, I didn't.

[Lei Cheng]

Think about freedom because I enjoyed it. That being said, growing up with first generation immigrant parents in Australia, I'd always known that in China they had taken away a lot of freedoms for years.

[Elise Hu]

Your parents, they came up during the Cultural Revolution, I assume, but the family.

[Lei Cheng]

Went to Australia in 1985, so it was already years into the reform and opening up process. And even then I saw the crackdown that came in tenement square in 1989. And I'd always known that China wanted to keep freedom of speech and protest and all that because it wanted to control the people.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Lei Cheng]

And the propaganda is that it wants a stable society that's good for everyone, but it's also very condescending and patriarchal to say that we know what's good for everyone. And when I went back to China to work, I thought I was helping with the change to liberalization.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Lei Cheng]

That telling what was happening in China to a global audience and vice versa was helping everyone understand each other.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. Instead. Instead you ran into a buzzsaw, it sounds like. Obviously, bring that back to your time being incarcerated too, because this is what really crystallized for you, this notion of freedom. Right. And then led to some of the ideas in your talk. When do you feel like that evolution was really evident to you? And how are you internalizing and living this notion of being free now?

[Lei Cheng]

I guess, as I alluded to in the talk, I marvel at every little freedom that we have because for three years and two months, it was all brutally taken away from me. So I see. Like when I lost my mobile phone in the Uber about two months after I was released, after the initial panic, I had such a wonderful thought. At least I have a phone to lose now. So what's annoying, what's frustrating is a privilege. When we die, we won't have any of this pain. So to embrace pain, change, discomfort, to have that inner Zen at all times, like right now, if there was a natural disaster or if there was war, I think I could still draw on that terrible experience and be able to create, be able to help others and feel free.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah, you bring up war. I'd love to talk a little bit about the concept of defending freedom, because governments all over the world are spending millions, billions, trillions of dollars on defense and their militaries. What do you think about that concept, the notion that the state needs to come in and defend the idea of freedom for its citizens?

[Lei Cheng]

I think that's a fraught concept. And he can be abused in so many ways. I think I prefer to think of these grand ideas as concrete little steps that we can all practice day to day. Because some of the best freedom fighters in the world can suddenly turn into dictators or once they gain power, and that's because they know how to shut down all the other freedom fighters.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Lei Cheng]

And for me, it's more important to respect others thoughts, opinions, as long as they don't incite hate.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Lei Cheng]

And it's more important for me to show kindness even with people who may try to hurt me.

[Elise Hu]

Given the fact that the Chinese state did try to hurt you, are there any guardrails now or any guardrails that you give yourself in terms of what you can and cannot say about the Chinese government?

[Lei Cheng]

Well, they're so easily offended. If you say one thing or 10 things, it doesn't really matter.

[Elise Hu]

Right. So you're just like, oh, let her rip.

[Lei Cheng]

And the other thing is, if I am to be afraid of and to be shut down, that is actually a compliment.

[Elise Hu]

It means that you're paying attention.

[Lei Cheng]

Yes. And that I am influencing people.

[Elise Hu]

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[Lei Cheng]

I think we should all keep top of mind the value and cost of freedom. Sometimes it's very easy to see glossy facades of countries like China.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Lei Cheng]

But you don't realize the cost of that glossiness.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Lei Cheng]

As I know, a lot of influences saying, oh, look at China, it's great. And all of that is true. But if you only show that part of China, it's wrong.

[Elise Hu]

Do you think that we confuse, especially in this highly visual, highly consumerist society, do you think that we confuse consumer choice for freedom?

[Lei Cheng]

I think we do. And in a way, the more choice you have, the less freedom.

[Elise Hu]

Ooh, say more. Yeah, say more about this.

[Lei Cheng]

So if you're paralyzed by choice or if you are constricted by choice, this array of availability, then you're not really thinking for yourself. You're just a slave to more masters.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. And then obviously there's architects of our choices too, right?

[Lei Cheng]

Absolutely.

[Elise Hu]

Whoever's behind the brands or the manufacturers or the industry.

[Lei Cheng]

So always think about, why am I thinking and feeling this way? Is this me? And too many choices stop that conversation from happening.

[Elise Hu]

Right. And who does it benefit?

[Lei Cheng]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

Well, given the way that the Internet has Balkanized us or has become a bunch of echo chambers and the growing nationalism and authoritarianism that we are seeing around the world, so not just in Asia, but also here in the west, what role do you think journalists should be playing in this moment for the globe?

[Lei Cheng]

Certainly not polarizing views. I wish more centrists could be braver. And I wish media organizations didn't have to make the tough choice between survival and clickbait.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. So the economic incentives are all off. We're also just seeing as a result of failure of a lot of these business models behind journalism. Just so many organizations or independent news organizations having to close up shop. Is that the case in Australia? Are there responses that you like to this problem of the media implosion?

[Lei Cheng]

This is a subject that many journalists in Australia and other countries talk about with increasing sense of depression.

[Elise Hu]

Right.

[Lei Cheng]

Because it is happening everywhere and where we might. But we aren't quite seeing media savviness take place in our consumers. And whether they then follow with their wallets and attention is another thing. But we have to keep at it, one accurate and nuanced article at a time. And through meeting and fostering trust between us and our readers, viewers, anyone we meet.

[Elise Hu]

All right. You talk about how you learned that the mind can often be our greatest prison. So what advice do you have for people who are feeling stuck. Stuck between imprisoning themselves. Yeah. With their own thoughts or their own notions of what their lives are supposed to be.

[Lei Cheng]

I think they should do as much as possible because nobody is telling them not to. To think as far out as they can. Because they're not in my parents era during the Cultural Revolution during which they had to report to the Great leader every day their thoughts and have their diaries raided. So we have all These freedoms that we don't exercise. And please don't wait until you're sitting in a prison cell like I was, or on your deathbed. And. And not even to know what you missed. That would be a tragedy greater than any other.

[Elise Hu]

We have some rapid fire questions, a lightning round so you don't have to overthink it. And it's just a quick word association or whatever comes to your mind first. And it's a way for us to get to know you beyond your talk specifically. All right, what does innovation or a good idea look or feel like to you, Spock? Love it. What's something new that you brought into your life in 2025 that didn't exist before?

[Lei Cheng]

Dating apps.

[Elise Hu]

Ooh, I want to hear more. Have you see, now I have to ask a follow up. Are there different dating apps in Australia than there are in the US And Canada?

[Lei Cheng]

I think they tend to be fairly international. The major ones.

[Elise Hu]

Okay.

[Lei Cheng]

But in terms of the people you find there, you'll probably find some local flavors.

[Elise Hu]

Okay. Vegemite.

[Lei Cheng]

No.

[Elise Hu]

I always think when I. When I think of Australia, I'm always like, Tim Tams. Oh, yes, yes.

[Lei Cheng]

That's.

[Elise Hu]

And then Vegemite. And I'm like, I have a taste for Tim Tams, but not Vegemite. Okay. What are you hoping to leave behind this year?

[Lei Cheng]

Book.

[Elise Hu]

Your book?

[Lei Cheng]

Yes, actually a play. Ooh, I'm working on a play.

[Elise Hu]

How exciting. Are you learning to write a play versus a book or a script that you've written before?

[Lei Cheng]

We're making it up as we go and love the creative process.

[Elise Hu]

Great. All right. Off the TED stage, what is a fun talent, skill, or hobby that you have that you love so much that you could give another TED Talk just about that?

[Lei Cheng]

Food.

[Elise Hu]

Ooh. Any specific kind of food?

[Lei Cheng]

What's someone who was deprived of any choice for a long time? I tend to just have.

[Elise Hu]

Just.

[Lei Cheng]

Just love everything.

[Elise Hu]

Everything is delicious.

[Lei Cheng]

Yes.

[Elise Hu]

I'm really maximizing my meals at the food trucks because they're open for several hours. So if you have a strategy, you can really hit all of them within.

[Lei Cheng]

Good idea.

[Elise Hu]

Five hours.

[Lei Cheng]

I like the way you think.

[Elise Hu]

I have all the buffet hacks. Come to me.

[Lei Cheng]

Yes, please.

[Elise Hu]

What is your most treasured memory?

[Lei Cheng]

Singing in the cell.

[Elise Hu]

That's really lovely. Kind of bittersweet. Of course. And what would constitute a perfect day for you?

[Lei Cheng]

A day filled with food and cooking. Going to a produce market, playing some soccer, making up skits with my children. Writing and listening to all sorts of music and hugs and kisses.

[Elise Hu]

Wow. You really thought about this? I love it. I guess you had a lot of time to figure out what you valued the most.

[Lei Cheng]

Also, if I just said sex, you might not make it to the final cut.

[Elise Hu]

Yes. Then you don't get to enjoy all the other things. All right, what are you worried about and what's giving you hope?

[Lei Cheng]

I'm worried about my kids not learning how to communicate interpersonally, but I'm also hopeful that they might be a new generation of thinkers and communicators and innovators that we can't imagine right now.

[Elise Hu]

Last question. What's kind of a small gratitude? I know you're grateful for many things. What is a small gratitude that you have in your life right now? Like a little specific thing that you're really grateful for?

[Lei Cheng]

Flowers and spring in Vancouver. My God, with all that rain, your flowers are just absolutely gorgeous. And at ted, every table so centerpiece is magnificent, so lovely. And I had no plants for over three years. So yes, I look at them all the time and touch them.

[Elise Hu]

Beautiful. Lei Chang, thank you so much.

[Lei Cheng]

Thank you.

[Elise Hu]

That was Lei Chang in conversation with me, Elise Hu, at Ted2025. You can check out Lei's talk on the TED Talks Daily feed [e-mail] and that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This episode was produced by Lucy Little and edited by Alejandra Salazar. This episode was recorded by Rich Amies and Dave Pullmer of Field Trip Production support from Daniela Ballaraiso and Xuhan Hu. The TED Talks Daily team includes Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Greene, and Tansika Sangmarni Vong. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feedback. Thanks for listening. If you love to travel, Capital One has a rewards credit card that's perfect for you. With the Capital One Venture X card, you earn unlimited double miles on everything you buy. Plus, you get premium benefits at a collection of luxury hotels when you book on Capital One Travel. And with Venture X, you get access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. Open up a world of travel possibilities with a Capital One Venture X card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See capital1.com for details.

[Lei Cheng]

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[Lei Cheng]

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