Can big tech and privacy coexist? | Carole Cadwalladr and Chris Anderson

Summary

Podcast Summary: TED Talks Daily
Episode: "Can Big Tech and Privacy Coexist?"
Hosts: Carole Cadwalladr and Chris Anderson
Release Date: April 13, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of TED Talks Daily, investigative journalist Carole Cadwalladr engages in an in-depth conversation with Chris Anderson, the head of TED, to explore the intricate dynamics between big technology companies and personal privacy. Released on April 13, 2025, this episode delves into the rise of techno-oligarchies, the pervasive nature of data surveillance, and the delicate balance between technological advancement and individual privacy rights.

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1. The Emergence of Techno-Oligarchies and Digital Coup

Timestamp: [03:06]

Chris Anderson initiates the discussion by referencing Carol Cadwalladr’s impactful TED talk, which ignited significant reactions. He summarizes her core argument:

"We're in the middle of what looks like a digital coup, that the combination of Trump and a collection of big tech leaders is in danger of creating a new kind of autocracy in America."
— Carole Cadwalladr [03:44]

Carol expands on this, highlighting the symbolic capture of Silicon Valley by political forces:

"Silicon Valley has been captured by the administration and the administration is acting in all sorts of unlawful ways and Silicon Valley is now part of that."
— Carole Cadwalladr [04:17]

She uses the metaphor "Tech Bros in hostage situations" to illustrate how tech leaders have become entangled with political agendas, effectively becoming instruments in a broader power struggle.

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2. Data Surveillance and Its Far-Reaching Implications

Timestamp: [04:24 - 09:55]

Carol outlines a pivotal moment when Elon Musk's "cyber troops" accessed the U.S. Treasury's financial data, emphasizing the irreversible nature of data acquisition:

"Once you've got the data, when you've got the entire nation's data, you can't just put that genie back in the bottle."
— Carole Cadwalladr [04:24]

She warns of a power grab that transcends democratic guardrails, positioning Silicon Valley's data accumulation as a fundamental threat to national sovereignty and democratic integrity.

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3. The "Move Fast and Break Things" Mentality

Timestamp: [12:10 - 14:36]

The conversation shifts to Silicon Valley’s notorious mantra:

"Move fast and break things."
— Chris Anderson [12:10]

Carol criticizes this approach, arguing that it fosters a culture of impunity where laws are flouted without repercussions:

"It's breaking the law and getting away with it. It's having absolute impunity and knowing that it takes ages for regulators to catch up."
— Carole Cadwalladr [12:12]

She draws parallels to authoritarian tactics, suggesting that this reckless innovation undermines legal and ethical standards, making it increasingly difficult to challenge these entities legally and socially.

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4. Data Ownership, AI Ethics, and Compensation

Timestamp: [17:14 - 30:52]

A significant portion of the discussion centers on data ownership and the ethical use of personal information in AI development. Chris poses a thought-provoking scenario about AI companions requiring personal data to provide tailored advice:

"Do I want it to know about me or not? I think most people will end up concluding that they do want that AI to know about them because it's only by knowing about you that they can actually give you wise advice that's tailored to what you need and who you know."
— Chris Anderson [18:52]

Carol counters by emphasizing the lack of trust in current big tech companies to handle data ethically:

"Ownership, right? Who are these companies owned by? What are their values, who are they aligned with, where might that data end up and do you trust and are they transparent about it?"
— Carole Cadwalladr [20:24]

She underscores the irreversible nature of data misuse, highlighting scenarios where personal data from apps could be weaponized against individuals, thereby eroding trust and safety.

Furthermore, Carol advocates for fair compensation and ethical agreements when personal data is used:

"In a theoretical world, with an ethical AI company which asked your permission before it scraped your data and then paid you whenever it used that in some ways."
— Carole Cadwalladr [26:38]

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5. Legal Battles and the Assault on Independent Journalism

Timestamp: [32:42 - 40:10]

Carol shares her harrowing personal experience with libel laws in the UK, illustrating the precarious position of journalists in the face of powerful entities:

"The defense fell away because it was the continued publication by TED, which is a foreign media organization in a foreign jurisdiction, I was held responsible for. And that's why he got damages awarded against him."
— Carole Cadwalladr [38:06]

She details the "Kafkaesque" nature of her legal battle, where she had to defend statements she never explicitly made, highlighting how such lawsuits are weaponized to silence critical voices:

"This was the thing which we're now appealing at the European Court of Human Rights... it's a way of trying to shut down critical reporting or critical voices."
— Carole Cadwalladr [38:27]

Carol emphasizes the urgent need for independent journalism, free from the shackles of political and corporate influences, to maintain democratic discourse and accountability.

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6. The Intersection of Technology and Politics

Timestamp: [30:20 - 32:42]

Carol introduces the term "Techno-Oligarchy" to describe the concentration of power within a few tech giants aligned with political agendas:

"Technology is politics now and politics is technology. There is no separation between them."
— Carole Cadwalladr [30:52]

Chris acknowledges the complexities but maintains a cautiously optimistic view, believing in the potential for technology to foster progress if ethical frameworks are established:

"Can we think of a way of ensuring that we get the best of AI and not the worst?"
— Chris Anderson [17:14]

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7. Optimism Amidst Challenges

Timestamp: [17:14 - 40:10]

Despite the grim realities discussed, both Carol and Chris express a sense of determination and optimism. Chris identifies himself as a "determined optimist," believing in the transformative power of ideas and technology over politics:

"I've always believed that the worlds of ideas, innovation, technology are actually ultimately more powerful than politics."
— Chris Anderson [17:14]

Carol echoes this sentiment by advocating for sustainable, reader-supported independent media as a beacon of hope against the prevailing threats of surveillance and authoritarianism.

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Conclusion

This episode of TED Talks Daily offers a sobering yet hopeful examination of the fraught relationship between big tech and personal privacy. Through the articulate insights of Carole Cadwalladr and Chris Anderson, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the systemic challenges posed by data surveillance, the ethical dilemmas in AI development, and the relentless assault on independent journalism. The conversation underscores the imperative for robust ethical standards, legal reforms, and collective action to ensure that technological advancements do not come at the expense of democratic values and individual freedoms.

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Notable Quotes:

• Carole Cadwalladr [03:44]:
  "We're in the middle of what looks like a digital coup, that the combination of Trump and a collection of big tech leaders is in danger of creating a new kind of autocracy in America."

• Carol Cadwalladr [04:24]:
  "Once you've got the data, when you've got the entire nation's data, you can't just put that genie back in the bottle."

• Carol Cadwalladr [12:12]:
  "It's breaking the law and getting away with it. It's having absolute impunity and knowing that it takes ages for regulators to catch up."

• Chris Anderson [17:14]:
  "Can we think of a way of ensuring that we get the best of AI and not the worst?"

• Carol Cadwalladr [30:52]:
  "Technology is politics now and politics is technology. There is no separation between them."

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Additional Resources:

• Carol Cadwalladr’s TED Talk
• TED Website

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Produced by:
Lucy Little, Alejandra Salazar, Julia Dickerson, Rich Amies, Dave Pulmer, Daniela Ballarazo, Xuhan Hu, Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Greene, Tansika Sangmarni Vong, Emma Tobner

Edited and Mixed by:
Lucy Little

Fact-Checked by:
Julia Dickerson

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Transcript

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[Chris Anderson]

Carol Cadwallader, it's so nice to get to sit down with you. A few days ago you opened the TED conference with an absolute blockbuster of a talk. Got a huge reaction from people in a one sentence summary. And I'd like you to expand on this. What you argued was that we're in the middle of what looks like a digital coup, that the combination of Trump and a collection of big tech leaders is in danger of creating a new kind of autocracy in America. Is that about the core of it?

[Carol Cadwalader]

Yes, yes, that's right. Well, I mean, you know, I put up the photo from the inauguration and one of the things that I found really resonated with people, which is so it's the photo of the tech leaders behind Trump and you know, I called it Tech Bros in hostage situations. And it's this idea that Silicon Valley has been captured by the administration and the administration is acting in all sorts of unlawful ways and Silicon Valley is now part of that.

[Chris Anderson]

And the main way in which Silicon Valley is helping advance this is what.

[Carol Cadwalader]

Well, you know, I talked about. For example, for me, the big danger, danger moment was when, you know, the first weekend that the administration took office, Elon Musk sent his I call them cyber troops into the US treasury where they gained unlawful access. They got access to the nation's data, its financial data, and he now has that. And you know, for me, as you know, as I know, I call it the crack cocaine of Silicon Valley is always data. You need data to feed the, the AI and you can never put it back. I mean, that's one of the whole things. Once you've got the data, when you've got the entire nation's data, you can't just put that genie back in the bottle. And that to me is that this is a power grab which goes beyond any of the guardrails of democracy. And that's not just about now. You know, Silicon Valley, as we know, does not think in four year cycles, this is absolutely about a land grab for the future. That's what I was trying to say really goes beyond politics.

[Chris Anderson]

So I think the probably the purpose of this conversation now is for me to gently try and play devil's advocate, Ted, is obviously we're Trying to be open tent. We want people of all political views and so forth to. We want to listen and, you know, treat with curiosity and respect and so forth. So I'm going to frame what a different view of what's happening might be and see what you make of it. One thing to say, first of all, is that Silicon Valley is not a thing. From inside Silicon Valley, they would probably all say, no, these are our competitors. Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg were both there, but they are competitive enemies, to say the least. And so, like you have, I think it was you who coined this powerful term broligarchy, I believe so.

[Carol Cadwalader]

I started using it a year ago and I was. Because it was like, oh, hold on a minute. What we're seeing here is this elite, this business elite, like oligarchy, but it's tech bros. And I was like, of course, it's prologarchy.

[Chris Anderson]

Right? So the way I think of an oligarchy is of a group of powerful people kind of acting in unison. And I think they would say that they are not acting in unison, largely that, you know, they are competitive with each other and maybe there are some aligned interests, like having legislation that makes it easier for companies to expand dynamically and so forth. But that's, that's one piece. Like, if it was the case that they generally are competitors with each other, what's the sense in which you, you feel that they're acting, you know, sort of as a group?

[Carol Cadwalader]

I don't think there's any conspiracy here, and I don't necessarily think they're acting as a group at all. And this is where I think it's really helpful to look at America now from the frame of understanding what has happened in other countries. I'm really sorry. I've got such a sore throat from talking so much, Chris. I apologize to everybody. So, you know, I think Russia is a template here for what is happening, which is the breed of. We call them oligarchs, right? They didn't agree with each other, they were suing each other, they were sometimes murdering each other. But it was. They needed a relationship with Putin, with power. And in some cases, it was about enriching themselves, about creating opportunities. But a lot of the time it was also just survival, which is. And that's what I mean about them looking like hostages. There wasn't a choice, it feels to me, in terms of who was up there on the dais, the inauguration. Trump knew that he needs Silicon Valley, because in a standard coup, when the military takes over, the junta takes over the first thing you do is take over the radio station, right? You need to have the means of communication. And in this case, the means of communication are these big Silicon Valley companies. It's such a, you know, colossal thing that is happening right now. It's not just America. Of course, we can see that in many ways. But, you know, the fact is these are global communication platforms, and they are now in an alignment, captured, whatever you want to talk about it, with what is a coming autocratic regime, right?

[Chris Anderson]

So they, even though they're in competition with each other, you're saying that they. They share a need to have the president's approval. So they are doing things to win that approval, and thereby they're helping to construct and empower the creation of a kind of autocracy.

[Carol Cadwalader]

I mean, Trump was explicit in his threats, right? I think he sort of threatened Zuckerberg with jail. You know, it's partly carrot, but it is partly stick, you know, and that is understood, I think, that there is. There is both. The carrot, which is there are opportunities, is gonna tear it, Reg. It's going to make it much easier to do the things that they want to do. But there is also the. We can see that if you're not obeying, then life is going to be very difficult. And we see that playing out in all sorts of ways. So, for example, with media organizations, we're seeing lawsuits on a daily basis. We're seeing it against big legal firms. That's one of the most shocking things for people. So it's not just they're sucking up to Trump for the sake of it. They feel they don't have a choice.

[Chris Anderson]

It's unquestionably true that there was a big swing in Silicon Valley that has traditionally been left of center toward Trump. Over the last six months of the last campaign, if you talk to people there, most of them, I think, would have explained it as follows. They would have said two things. One, these companies are reacting against years of sort of progressive culture that they didn't like that got in the way of building the stuff that they wanted to build. And a belief that the deregulation commitments of Trump and the explicit effort he made to do things like embrace crypto and so forth, showed that he was interested in having a sort of a positive environment in which technology could flourish. And from that standpoint, like a defender of Elon would say, look, Elon is known for running businesses more efficiently than anyone on the planet. Cut 75, 80% of the workforce at Twitter, and at least operationally, functionally, Added features and so forth. So what they would say is, it's fantastic and amazing to have, for the first time, really a really powerful businessman come into government and apply some of the tools to save what are crazy wasted costs in government, probably by common consent. And that the key to do that is that you have to start with the actual information systems. That's the pathway to do that. So what might look like, oh, he's going in to seize the data for his own use is not that it's delivering the means to figure out how to make the cuts. Is there. Do you see any rationale for that at all?

[Carol Cadwalader]

I could absolutely see from an engineer's brain that looks totally, completely rational and. Absolutely. And why wouldn't you? And also, if you're an engineer, as we've seen in Silicon Valley laws, regulation, you know, sod that. We know how to do it better, we know how to do it faster. If we do it quick enough, then actually it'll take them ages to catch up with us, and we've already done it. Like that is the history of Silicon Valley.

[Chris Anderson]

Move fast and break things.

[Carol Cadwalader]

You know what, though, we've got to stop using that, that phrase. It sounds so innocent and it's like, oh, it's like a baby breaking its toys. What that means is breaking the law and getting away with it. It's having absolute impunity and knowing that it takes ages for regulators to catch up. And that has created the situation that we're in. And this is exactly how DOGE is working. So everything that is done, for example, the cuts to usaid, devastating, devastating cuts, that is money which was allocated by Congress. This is not lawful, and this is to use the Silicon Valley framework. It's because they've always gotten away with it. So, you know, if you do it fast enough, it's then too late. The damage has been done and the world moves on. And that is the mistake that we have made with Silicon Valley time and time again. And it's why now, whilst this is happening in real time, this is the moment that people have to act. Because if you want to take the lessons from authoritarian countries, then it's too late after the fact. The longer that this goes on, the longer that the breaking, the wrecking, the vandalism, the illegal and unlawful behavior goes on. It's more as consolidated, the harder it is to fight back. And so my talk, in essence, was about the facts, that even though it's confusing, people are in denial, they feel powerless. You know, there's this sort of moment of paralysis. But actually people do have power. And that was what I was trying to communicate in my talk, really, as somebody who has experienced powerlessness. And I think, you know, as I said, it was only coming to TED that I had this revelation about actually, when you're at your most powerless, it's often because you are powerful. That's why you have to be stopped. And the people of America are more powerful than these guys, right? There's more of you and you have values and morals on your ethics, you know, a belief in the law on your side. So that's the thing that I was trying to communicate.

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[Chris Anderson]

Well, you really touched a nerve in the most powerful way by being eloquent, as you just heard, and by being vulnerable and coming at it from a very personal space. And when it comes to the demolition of usaid, I mean, I personally know organizations of people who were wrecked by that and I think history will show that that was a pretty brutal and reckless approach.

[Carol Cadwalader]

So can I turn the tables, Chris, and ask you about that? Because you know, Ted has done this Amazing thing of bringing together innovators, plus also people who think about the really hard problems that the world faces. And it's always been about a sort of synthesis between those and finding new ways. And this spirit of optimism has always run through the place. And for me personally, you, it's been a big thing. I first came to TED in 2005, but this is something really different, isn't it? And do you find it hard to retain your. Your optimistic frame?

[Chris Anderson]

I've always described myself as a determined optimist, which means that no matter how dark things are, you look for a pathway forward that has some hope, and you try and shine a light on it and hopefully, you know, you can find your way there. I've always believed that the worlds of ideas, innovation, technology are actually ultimately more powerful than politics. And I'm dismayed at the world of politics right now, dismayed at it, because it seems pretty helpless. There seems to be an impossible divide between two tribes. I actually think that over the next three or four years, the even bigger story will be how technology plays out, because I think AI is growing in power at such a speed that it will be more important than the political decisions are made. So for me, my focus is, can we think of a way of ensuring that we get the best of AI and not the worst? And that takes us, I think, into. One of the key conversations I want to have with you is around data. In your talk, you so powerfully talked about how these companies are extracting our data. It's surveillance capitalism. Surveillance fascism, I think you called it.

[Carol Cadwalader]

I cut that line. You know, can I just say that I was really sad when I woke up the next morning, I was really sad because I had that line in there of like, this is no longer surveillance capitalism. We're on our pathway to surveillance fascism. But because I was, like, mindful that everybody was like, you've got to cut it down a bit. So I lost that. And it was one of my. It was like, you know, you said.

[Chris Anderson]

Well, there we go, we've got it back, we've got it back.

[Carol Cadwalader]

Thank you.

[Chris Anderson]

But this, I think, is such. Is something like I'm wrestling with myself because it's true that data, your data used by someone in power against your interest is a horrifying thing. It's also true that in a way, you know, everything works from data. Like, you need information to have any kind of useful knowledge. So the sharpest way I can put this is this. Let's say I've got a very powerful AI companion, right? That I'm consulting and I'm getting wisdom from and so forth. And you ask the question, do I want it to know about me or not? I think most people will end up concluding that they do want that AI to know about them because it's only by knowing about you that they can actually give you wise advice that's tailored to what you need and who you know. And it's almost like the classic sort of examples about the misuse of data around. The advertiser knows before you do that you're a target for Viagra or for whatever ailment that they can foist on you. And it feels very uncomfortable. But when it comes to an actual intelligence that you're working with, I wonder whether you're going to win the argument on data or whether actually most people are actually going to voluntarily say no, please, literally, I want you to read all my emails and help me be wiser. Is that horrifying or do you see some logic to that?

[Carol Cadwalader]

I understand the beautiful vision that that is that there is a really helpful assistant who's going to know all your problems and, you know, help you reach the great solutions. It's the thing is about it is that first off it's ownership, right? Who are these companies owned by? What are their values, who are they aligned with, where might that data end up and do you trust and are they transparent about it? Do you know what's going to happen to that data where it could end up? And the thing is, is that in the current environment we're in, none of those things are true, right? There are none of these companies where you could say, yes, this person is the Nelson Mandela of the tech industry and I have complete trust and faith in them. And even if there was, you know, the fact is, is that as we've seen with 23andMe, right? So people have done these genetic tests that this company now has their genetic code and it's now up for sale. So where is that going to end up? And the thing is to go back to it, which is you never get your data back. When it's gone, it's gone. And the ways that that can be weaponized against you. A lot of women in America are starting to understand what that means. These period tracking apps which now you've understanding that's a surveillance device that, you know, if there's some instance in which they might have to seek health care access that that could become evidence which could be used against them. This is really personal information. And that's the thing, you know, A lot of people talk about data as property and it's really so much more than that. It's like your blood, your bones, your skin, your cells. Right. You have to think about how that can and will be assume the worst. Just at this point in time, you have to assume the worst.

[Chris Anderson]

The business models of the AI platforms are different from the business models of social media. Social media was dependent on advertising and the core there is almost like give the advertisers data that you've extracted and let them use it how they will for the AI platforms to earn people's subscription, whether you're literally paying out an amount per month, I think they're going to conclude that it's in their interest to demonstrate that they are trustable. I mean if they're not, people won't.

[Carol Cadwalader]

Support, they're not trustworthy. Who's trustworthy in the AI space then out of these companies who has been transparent, ethical and legitimate in their approach to data use and the models they're building?

[Chris Anderson]

Obviously the stated policies of all of the companies is that they want to honor users interests. So I've spent time talking with Demis Hassavis who's head of DeepMind and basically drives Google's most important AI efforts. I think he's an honorable person. I think he's trying really hard to do the right thing and to develop Google's AI products on fair principles. It's not say it's an easy thing to do, but I also think even if you like, let's say that you don't trust Sam Altman. If OpenAI is exposed as abusing data, they have literally already billions of dollars that will go out the door from people who won't continue to subscribe to them. So you can say that maybe some individual at the top is not trustworthy. What I'm saying is that the actual system here doesn't obviously pull towards mistrust, it actually pulls towards like it's key to win people's trust for them to succeed.

[Carol Cadwalader]

But I think one of the best measures of people's behavior in the future is their behavior in the past. And this is actually how a lot of these systems work. Right. And if you look at the behavior of OpenAI in the past, which is it's illegally scraped data from numerous sources without respecting property rights or any other laws in different jurisdictions.

[Chris Anderson]

Well, you had that beautiful point in your talk where you said, So I asked ChatGPT to write a TED talk in the style of Carol Cadwalader and you showed what was.

[Carol Cadwalader]

Yeah, it was basically the outline of my talk.

[Chris Anderson]

It was compelling. Could have saved you a lot of.

[Carol Cadwalader]

Time, Carol, except, as I said, so it's like the opposite of human creativity.

[Chris Anderson]

Well, so let me ask this, though. You said, I did not consent to this and I do not consent. And it feels like you've had. It just feels outrageous that they've been reading all your stuff and are now doing this. And anyone else could write a talk in the style of Carol Cadwalader. Would you feel differently about it if there was an improved business model here where the platforms committed to respecting individual talent? So that, for example, when a request is made to specifically embody the style of a musician or a writer or an artist, that actually. That there would be some compensation back to that person? So that you could say, actually, this is a way in which I could amplify my impact on the planet and I will actually be compensated for it. Does that change the.

[Carol Cadwalader]

So I think that's fundamental to it. But however, it's just like you go back to the point is that this was done without any of our permission, right? And so we can see that there are big players who are being able to make deals, right? So, and I use the Guardian as an example of that, right? Which is the Guardian has done this syndication deal after the fact because the damage has already been done. They've already scraped the entirety of the Guardian's website. So I understand the logic. It's like, well, you might as well try and make some money out of it. But of course, that's not respecting of the IP and of individual contributors there, and individual contributors are not going to be in a position to do these deals with the platforms because they've got no. There's no collective ability to force a proper negotiation. So in a theoretical world, with an ethical AI company which asked your permission before it scraped your data and then paid you whenever it used that in some ways. But as we know, it's like it's so hard to make that assessment, right, because it's taken in such vast amounts of data and then it's mixed it all up into some weird sausage which it's now putting back out there.

[Chris Anderson]

I mean, they would argue, and I'm not saying I agree with this, but they would argue that every time technology changes that the rules need to be worked out again, that you've got a situation where your words were published, put out freely for anyone on the Internet to read. No matter how many more people read your past words, you don't get any more payment. And so the data is out there. They would argue that it's out there as a sort of public resource for fair use. And I think it's right that people are challenging that, because the fact is that, say, a given artist could easily be displaced by AI able to do much more.

[Carol Cadwalader]

It's actually. No, no, no. It's actually much, much deeper than that, right, which is that every nation state in the world has some form of property law, right, which is you can't walk into somebody's house and just steal the silver. That's what fundamentally, like, is the basis of law and order in our countries. But when it's intellectual is. No, it's just. It's property. These are property laws. You know, in Britain, we've had this law since 1783, and if you can't respect the basic fundamental underlying principles with which we order society, which is do not steal, then then what are you left with? It's like, it's fine, we're going to take your silver and then if we sell it on ebay, we might give you like, 5% of it.

[Chris Anderson]

Yeah, So I get the anger. There is a difference between a physical object where if you steal it, that person doesn't have it, versus a digital property where if you, quote, steal it, you still have access to it.

[Carol Cadwalader]

There's no difference.

[Chris Anderson]

Well, you know, I think there's traditionally a difference in, like, when an idea is out there, it can be built on an amplified. And like, for example, in the music business, there's constant building on one person's work by the next artist. The kindest way of viewing what they're doing for them is to say, we're not stealing, we're amplifying.

[Carol Cadwalader]

I think we are absolutely lost if we do not respect the law. And that's what we're seeing. This is what is happening.

[Chris Anderson]

The law isn't defined yet properly, and it's the process of being defined.

[Carol Cadwalader]

It is property. These are just property laws. There's no difference. And it's the point to go back to the case, right. You know, the underlying basis of what Google did with it, where it digitized it, stole, you know, every single written book in the world, didn't it? That was one of its first acts. And as I sort of said, it's just this acting with impunity is. Has led us to a place where that ideology is now embedded in the government of the biggest superpower in the world. And that is what's playing out now in real time. And if you don't like those laws, well, Then you don't respect these ones either. And this is where we're in a sort of cascading situation.

[Chris Anderson]

Right, right. Well, okay, I want two things simultaneously. I want a world in which creators are respected and fairly compensated for what they do. I also want a world where I can search for the collective wisdom of humanity and find it. I want to be able to read from all these books and discover them. And so, because we're not gonna be.

[Carol Cadwalader]

Able to have any further wisdom because there's gonna be no economic model for anybody to write another book.

[Chris Anderson]

Where I agree with you is that artists absolutely. And writers should be compensated. And if do that, it's just about possible to imagine a world where AI data can actually amplify the best thinkers. You know, the fact that in principle, someone's kid could have a conversation with Einstein based on his wisdom, you know, that's not something possible before. Now, arguably that makes the world better. You know, I think it's a reasonable conversation, but I think most people here would agree that the law is not yet in a good place and that writers and artists are in severe danger of being.

[Carol Cadwalader]

It's not in severe danger. It's happened. And also I think going back to it, which is it's power, I think we just keep on having to come back with its power. This is power being concentrated in the hands of a very few companies which are now aligned with a rogue state. That is what America is now in the world. It is a rogue state. You know, one of the key things I wanted to get across in the talk is that technology is politics now and politics is technology. There is no separation between them.

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[Carol Cadwalader]

I really appreciate Chris, it was so punchy of you to and we should talk about why you decided to put me first as the opening talk of the conference. Like tell me why, why did you.

[Chris Anderson]

Decide that I put you first? Because there are a huge number of people, probably the large majority of certainly the tech community is in a bit of a state of shell shock right now. I mean the pace of change has not been seen before either politically or technologically and people don't know what to make of it. And you are unbelievably eloquent at naming it and helping people feel it. You expressed emotions and feelings that so many people in the room feel. They were just so moved to hear that come from someone so powerfully. And you know, you don't hold back. Most people are frightened to make bold accusations against named individuals. You're fearless. I would actually love you. Just speaking of the journey that you've been on to just explain a bit more your own story here because you mentioned in the talk briefly that the last time you spoke you know you'd end up being sued and that it turned your life upside down. In that original talk you described someone as a liar based on prior reporting and he sued you for that. What was the court ruling there? At some point the court ruled that you would have to pay his legal costs.

[Carol Cadwalader]

What it is is that I said words which we published in the Guardian which were perfectly defensible, which was that he had lied about his relationship with the Russian government and that was based upon this series of non disclosed meetings. Let's just say that the Brexit donor had with Russian embassy officials in the lead up to the Brexit vote. Now, that is. That's just fact. And. And it was in our reporting. But the thing which I got tripped up on, Chris, which is that in the very arcane meshes of British libel law, a single judge decides on the meaning of your words, and they take into context the entire talk, and then they formulate their view of that meaning for all time. So the judge came up with this formulation, which is that he had accepted money in contravention of the law on such. And so therefore I had libelled because I'd made an accusation that he'd accepted foreign funding. What it meant is that I had never said these words at any point. Those words were never said in the talk. I certainly never meant to say those words. But that's what I had to go into court to defend. And that is why it was the Kafkaesque quality of it, which was so confounding, because I was having to defend something which I'd never said. And that was where it turned the case on its head, because it meant I couldn't defend that judge's meaning. So I then had to defend on the public interest of why I gave the talk. And it put all of the onus on me and my reporting. And that's why instead of me getting to do discovery on the man, he got to do discovery on me. And that was when I talked about. Because this is the thing which is really relevant. There's various things which are really relevant to what's going on in the US Right now. The court case was called a slap, which means that it's a way of trying to shut down critical reporting or critical voices. And that's what we're seeing happening in the U.S. these weaponized lawsuits. Organizations across America are now preparing for this to happen to them. They know that they are going to be on the end of highly politicized lawsuits in which they're going to have to open up their computers, their laptops, and they also know this is going to be accompanied, as it was in my case, by a sort of massive online hate campaign. And so that's the analogy which I was trying to make, which is what happened to me is a warning for what is coming for other people in America.

[Chris Anderson]

Well, needless to say, for everyone at ted, it was horrifying to see what you went through.

[Carol Cadwalader]

And I won. So just to be clear on that, I won the case. The public interest was found to be. My talk was absolutely lawful at the time that I gave it. And then on appeal, what happened is in the One year after I gave that talk, a police investigation into the Brexit donor was voided. And at that point, the Court of Appeal decided that the defence fell away. So it was the continued publication by ted, which is a foreign media organization in a foreign jurisdiction, I was held responsible for. And that's why he got damages awarded against him. And that's the thing which we're now appealing at the European Court of Human Rights. The thing is, it was complicated. Nobody really understood it. It was the pandemic. And, you know, I think when you realize the gravity of what was happening, you rang me up after the trial had ended and made that very generous gesture, which I do really appreciate, which is you said, you know, we will see you.

[Chris Anderson]

Right, yes.

[Carol Cadwalader]

So thank you for that. I don't want that to go unremarked.

[Chris Anderson]

I mean, you're an amazing fighter. So, Carol, during your talk, you referred to the terrible personal experience you had the last few years after your last talk. For someone who wants to understand more about what happened there, where can they go?

[Carol Cadwalader]

So I am, in one week's time, leaving my job not through choice, but because 100 journalists from the Guardian, we're being terminated because the Guardian has sold our corner of it. So I have set up a sub stack and I will write a full account where I would love to be able to explain to people the bigger picture behind that. I really, really believe in independent journalism. I really believe in independent media and independent. And that, I think, is so vital at this time. And so, as I was saying, my newspaper has been bought by unknown, unclear investors. And I don't feel it's possible to do the same kind of independent journalism there. But, you know, there is an explosion, there's a thirst and demand from people for, I think, these like, clear, independent voices. And I think out of the total crisis of media and what is happening, social media, you know, information chaos, I call it. I do also think there is an opportunity there to grow properly sustainable media from the ground up, supported by readers who value that without being dependent upon advertising, which we've seen has been a terrible media game. And algorithms, which we've seen, is another terrible game. So I sort of, you know, I really hope that people understand that trusted sources of information are vital and we need to pay for them. And, yeah, that's my message, I suppose, there.

[Chris Anderson]

Carol, thank you so much for coming to ted. Took lots of courage. You really touched people. Really wish you well as you continue your journey.

[Carol Cadwalader]

Thank you, Chris. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

[Elise Hu]

That was Carol Cadwalader in conversation with Head of TED Chris Anderson at TED 2025. You can check out Carol's talk on the TED Talks Daily feed or on Ted.com and that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This episode was produced by Lucy Little, edited by Alejandra Salazar, and fact checked by Julia Dickerson. This episode was recorded by Rich Amies and Dave Pulmer of Field Trip and mixed by Lucy Little. Production support from Daniela Ballarazo and Xuhan Hu. The TED Talks Daily team includes Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Greene and Tansika Sangmarni Vong. Additional support from Emma Tobner. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed. Thanks for listening.

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