Podcast: TED Talks Daily
Episode: Cancelling Cancel Culture with Loretta Ross | ReThinking with Adam Grant
Release Date: March 2, 2025
Host: Adam Grant
Guest: Loretta Ross, Reproductive Rights Activist and Smith College Professor

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Rethinking with Adam Grant, Loretta Ross joins Adam Grant to dissect and challenge the prevailing phenomenon of cancel culture. Celebrated during Women's History Month, their conversation delves deep into the nuances of accountability, empathy, and effective activism.

The Shift from Call Out to Call In

Adam Grant initiates the discussion by highlighting Loretta Ross's transformation from a frequent "callout" advocate to a proponent of "calling in." He remarks:

"Loretta's my favorite crusader against cancel culture, and she has a gift for helping people find better ways to manage anger and outrage."
[03:03]

Loretta Ross elaborates on her journey:

"I refer to myself as a reformed callout queen because I get pissed off a dozen times a day... I'm trying to tame that and teach myself that."
[04:08]

She emphasizes the exhaustion that comes with harboring hate and the intentional shift towards more constructive forms of confrontation.

Personal Experiences: William Fuller and Floyd Cochran

Loretta shares profound personal encounters that shaped her perspective on cancel culture:

Encounter with William Fuller:

"I met William Fuller... I was prepared to be disgusted by him... But Floyd was surprisingly intelligent and funny and self-critical after he finally woke up."
[13:28]

Encounter with Floyd Cochran:

"Floyd's epiphany, change of heart... was a Nazi when he was 14 years old... His second son was born with a cleft palate... it was Floyd's wake-up call."
[18:39]

These stories illustrate the transformative power of empathy and understanding, even towards those deeply entrenched in hate movements.

The Ineffectiveness and Harm of Shaming

Loretta Ross critically examines the efficacy of shaming as a tool for social change:

"Shaming has never worked to correct a behavior once the shame has been made public... It tends to drive people away rather than engaging them."
[20:03]

She argues that public shaming not only fails to foster accountability but also perpetuates dehumanization, undermining the very framework of human rights movements.

Strategies for Constructive Confrontation

Shifting the focus from changing others to transforming ourselves, Loretta introduces "calling in" as a more effective approach:

"Calling in is about getting you to change your behavior to other people... You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them think."
[26:11]

She outlines a structured approach:

1. Pause and Self-Assessment: Control initial emotional reactions.
2. Calibrate the Conflict: Decide whether to call out, call in, or refrain.
3. Communicate with Empathy: Use respectful language to address issues without demeaning others.

A notable exchange captures this essence:

Adam Grant: "Is this an example of what you would call calling in instead of calling out, or am I still missing part of the process?"

Loretta Ross: "Maybe another way would be to say... why are you accidentally doing it? And is that what you actually want to do?"
[09:40]

Redefining Diversity and Language Policing

Loretta critiques superficial approaches to diversity and the pitfalls of language policing:

"We need to redefine what we mean by diversity. I want us to really focus on the diversity of human experiences and elevate that over these made-up identity markers that just serve capitalism."
[31:42]

She advocates for embracing the complexity of human identities and experiences, moving beyond tokenistic representations.

Rapid-Fire Q&A

In the lightning round, Loretta shares insights and experiences that further illuminate her stance:

• Worst Advice Received:
  "I don't think I can ever remember any bad advice because I never follow bad advice."
  [36:16]

• Best Advice Received:
  "Loretta, you need to lighten up because fighting Nazis should be fun."
  [36:35]

Her responses underscore the importance of maintaining joy and humanity even in the face of adversity.

Conclusion

The conversation culminates in mutual admiration and a reaffirmation of the principles discussed:

Adam Grant: "Being direct with the content of your message doesn't prevent you from being thoughtful about the best way to deliver it."
[40:14]

Loretta Ross encourages redefining activism through empathy and constructive dialogue, leaving listeners inspired to rethink their approach to accountability and social justice.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Loretta Ross on Energy and Hate:
  "It takes too much energy to hate people. You know, I've always found that exhausting."
  [19:08]

• Adam Grant on Shaming:
  "There is just a huge body of evidence in psychology showing that when you shame people, it tends to make them defensive."
  [25:42]

• Loretta Ross on Vulnerability:
  "When you want to organize people in the human rights movement, your vulnerability becomes your greatest asset."
  [22:20]

Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a vital discourse on transforming societal interactions from punitive shaming to empathetic engagement. Loretta Ross's experiences and insights provide a roadmap for fostering meaningful conversations and sustainable change, challenging listeners to reconsider the efficacy and humanity of cancel culture.

For more deep conversations and thought-provoking ideas, find Rethinking with Adam Grant wherever you get your podcasts.