How Dolly Parton led me to an epiphany | Jad Abumrad (re-release)

Summary

TED Talks Daily – "How Dolly Parton led me to an epiphany"

Speaker: Jad Abumrad
Date: September 29, 2025 (re-release; talk originally from TED 2020)
Host: Elise Hu

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Overview

This episode features Jad Abumrad—creator of Radiolab—sharing a heartfelt reflection on his journalistic journey and how country music legend Dolly Parton guided him to a crucial insight about storytelling, bridging difference, and finding meaning beyond struggle. Abumrad recounts moving from stories of scientific wonder to tales of struggle and conflict, eventually arriving at an “epiphany” about resolution, connection, and the search for “the third”—a space where difference transforms into revelation.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Jad Abumrad’s Evolution as a Storyteller

(02:20 – 06:45)

• Began his career at Radiolab focused on audio storytelling, aiming to evoke “wonder” via science stories.
• Used techniques like vivid soundscapes and “hypnotic” storytelling, as shown in a recurring motif:
  • Steve Strogatz (02:42): “It’s one of the most hypnotic and spellbinding spectacles in nature…absolutely silent.”
  • Abumrad would then lead listeners into a moment of awe, crafting stories that habitually resolved with amazement and delight.
• Over time, he felt these stories became repetitive (“I have made this sound 25 times”) and questioned whether wonder was the only valid end point.

2. Encountering Complexity and “Truths in Collision”

(04:20 – 07:25)

• Recognized darker, more complex sides to storytelling—particularly when narratives clashed.
  • Recounted a striking episode interviewing a Laotian man about chemical attack allegations where the man’s lived experience clashed with scientific findings (“the interview ended in tears”).
• Realized that “there are a lot of truths in the room and we were only looking at one of them.”
• Shifted his journalistic goal: from leading listeners to moments of wonder to moments of struggle and unresolved conflict.
  • Abumrad: “The struggle kind of became the point."
• Sought out stories about consent, race, Guantanamo, focusing on the uncomfortable, sigh-inducing gray areas ("That sigh right there...That sound is kind of our current moment, right?" [06:52]).

3. The Challenge of Endings and the Dolly Parton Connection

(07:25 – 08:29)

• Abumrad faced a narrative challenge: “How do you end that story? You can’t just ‘happily ever after’ it...But if you just leave people in that stuck place, like, why did I just listen to that?”
• Intuited that Dolly Parton’s career and phenomenon could reveal an answer.
  • Observed at her concerts people of all backgrounds united: “All of these people that we are told should hate each other are there singing together.”

4. Dolly Parton’s Approach: Complexity, Identity, and Nuance

(08:29 – 13:15)

• Interviewed Dolly Parton a dozen times. She always began interviews with:

  • Dolly Parton (08:29): "Ask me whatever you ask me, and I'm gonna tell you what I want you to hear."

• Investigated Dolly’s deep connection to Tennessee and southern identity.

  • Abumrad, as a Lebanese-American raised in Tennessee, initially felt alienated from Dolly’s nostalgia, describing personal anxiety over not “belonging.”

• A transformative visit to Dolly’s real Tennessee mountain home revealed a stunning similarity to his father’s home in Lebanon—a moment of “layering” and empathy.

  • Led to conversations with his father about migration and loss.
  • Spoke with Dolly about her songs as “migration music”—not just about place, but about the ache for vanished moments and identities.

• Explored the complex, unsummarizable relationship between Dolly and her mentor Porter Wagoner.

  • When Abumrad suggested typical narratives about sexism and power, Dolly rebuffed simplification:
    • Dolly Parton (12:56): “Well, it's more complicated than that...He didn’t know how many dreams I had.”
  • Abumrad: “She kept telling me, don’t bring your stupid way of seeing the world into my story…you can’t summarize this.”

5. The “Third”: Finding Connection Beyond Difference

(13:15 – 15:17)

• Abumrad articulated his new journalistic calling: not just to display difference, but to bridge it—to seek “the third.”
• Described the psychological concept: “In psychotherapy, there’s this idea called the third…when two people come together and really commit to something…they actually make something new, a new entity that is their relationship.”
• Saw Dolly’s concerts and approach to music/fandom as “a cultural third space”—where disparate people are united in shared experience.
  • “Every story I tell has gotta find the third. That place where the things we hold as different resolve themselves into something new.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On seeking wonder:
  • Jad Abumrad (04:00): “I began to see that as my job, to lead people to moments of wonder. What that sounded like was: ‘wow, wow, wow, that’s amazing.’”
• On reaching an impasse:
  • Jad Abumrad (05:30): “…hammering at a scientific truth when someone has suffered, that wasn’t going to heal anything. And maybe I was relying too much on science to find the truth.”
• On struggle as a narrative endpoint:
  • Jad Abumrad (06:47): “That sigh right there. I wanted to hear that sound in every single story. Because that sound is kind of our current moment, right? We live in a world where truth is no longer just a set of facts to be captured. It's become a process.”
• Dolly’s forthrightness:
  • Dolly Parton (08:29): “Ask me whatever you ask me, and I'm gonna tell you what I want you to hear.”
• On attachments to home:
  • Jad Abumrad (09:01): “Now, I grew up in Tennessee, and I felt no nostalgia for that place. I was the scrawny Arab kid who came from the place that invented suicide bombing. I spent a lot of time in my room. When I left Nashville, I left.”
• On Dolly’s complexity:
  • Dolly Parton (12:56): “Well, it’s more complicated than that…He didn’t know how many dreams I had.”
• On “the third”:
  • Jad Abumrad (14:20): “In psychotherapy, there’s this idea called the third...when two people come together and really commit to something ... they actually make something new, a new entity that is their relationship.”
• Defining his new purpose:
  • Jad Abumrad (15:12): “Every story I tell has gotta find the third. That place where the things we hold as different resolve themselves into something new.”

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Segment Timestamps

• Journalistic beginnings & moments of wonder (02:20–04:20)
• Realizations about truth and stories of conflict (04:20–07:25)
• The challenge of endings in narrative (07:25–08:29)
• Dolly Parton as a bridge-builder; connection to place (08:29–11:20)
• Migration, identity, and personal discovery (11:20–13:15)
• Finding revelation: “the third” and a new approach to storytelling (13:15–15:17)

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Summary

In this deeply personal talk, Jad Abumrad shares how his search for narrative resolution led him through science, struggle, and ultimately to a chance revelation while reporting on Dolly Parton. Through engagement with Dolly’s life and his own heritage, he concludes that stories—and perhaps society itself—cannot end in difference or conflict, but must strive for the moment when opposites transform and a new, shared reality emerges. Dolly’s concerts, her life philosophy, and even her music exemplify this “third space,” revealing an American identity capacious enough to hold contradiction and create connection.

A compelling listen for anyone drawn to questions of storytelling, identity, and the possibility of unity in a fractured world.

Transcript

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[Elise Hu]

You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hu. How do you end a In this archive talk from TED 2020, host of Radiolab, Jad Abumrad tells us how his search for an answer led him home to the mountains of Tennessee, where he met an unexpected teacher, Dolly Parton.

[Jad Abumrad]

I want to tell you about my search for purpose as a journalist and how Dolly Parton help me figure it out. So I've been telling audio stories for about 20 years, first on the radio and then in podcasts. And when I started the radio show radio lab in 2002, here was the quintessential story move we would do. We'd bring on somebody.

[Steve Strogatz]

It's one of the most hypnotic and spellbinding spectacles in nature because you have to keep in mind it is absolutely silent.

[Jad Abumrad]

Like this guy, mathematician Steve Strogatz, and he would paint a picture.

[Steve Strogatz]

Picture it. There's a riverbank in Thailand in the remote part of the jungle, you're in a canoe slipping down the river. There's no sound of anything. Maybe the occasional exotic jungle bird or something.

[Jad Abumrad]

So you're in this imaginary canoe with Steve, and in the air all around you are millions of fireflies. And what you see is sort of a randomized starry night effect because all the fireflies are blinking at different rates, which is what you'd expect. But according to Steve, in this one place, for reasons no scientist can fully explain. Whoop. Vroop, vroop.

[Steve Strogatz]

With thousands of lights on and then off, all in sync.

[Jad Abumrad]

Now, it's around this time that I would generally bring in the beautiful music, as I just did, and you'd start to get that warm feeling, a feeling that we know from science kind of localizes in your head and chest and spreads through your body. It's that feeling of wonder. From 2002 to 2010, I did hundreds of these stories. Sciencey, neuroscience y, very heady, brainy stories that would always resolve into that feeling of wonder. And I began to see that as my job, to lead people to moments of wonder. What that sounded like was, wow, wow, wow, that's amazing.

[EY Advertiser]

Whoa, wow, wow.

[Jad Abumrad]

But I began to get kind of tired of these stories. I mean, partially it was the repetition. I remember there was a day I was sitting at the computer making the sound of a neuron. You know, take some white noise, chop it up, very easy sound to make. I remember thinking, I have made this sound 25 times. But it was more than that. It was. There was a familiar path to these stories. You walk the path of truth which is made of science, and you get to wonder. Now, I love science, don't get me wrong. My parents emigrated from a war torn country, came to America and science for them was like more their identity than anything else. And I inherited that from them. But there was something about that simple movement from science to wonder that just started to feel wrong to me. Like, is that the only path a story can take? Around 2012, I ran into a bunch of different stories that made me think, no one story in particular, where we interviewed a guy who described chemical weapons being used against him and his fellow villagers in the mountains of Laos. Western scientists went there, measured for chemical weapons, didn't find any. We interviewed the man about this. He said the scientists were wrong. We said, but they tested. He said, I don't care. I know what happened to me. And we went back and forth and back and forth. And make a long story short, the interview ended in tears. I felt I Felt horrible. Like hammering at a scientific truth when someone has suffered, that wasn't going to heal anything. And maybe I was relying too much on science to find the truth. And it really did feel at that moment that there are a lot of truths in the room and we were only looking at one of them. So I thought, I gotta get better at this. And so for the next eight years, I committed myself to doing stories where you heard truths collide. We did stories about the politics of consent, where you heard the perspective of survivors and perpetrators whose narratives cloud. We did stories about race, how black men are systematically eliminated from juries, and yet the rules that try and prevent that from happening only make things worse. Stories about counter terrorism, Guantanamo, Guantanamo detainees. Stories where everything is disputed. All you can do is struggle to try and make sense. And the struggle kind of became the point. I began to think maybe that's my job, to lead people to moments of struggle. And here's what that sounded like. But I see, I like, oh, I, I know.

[Elise Hu]

Well, so like that.

[Steve Strogatz]

I mean, I, you know, I.

[Jad Abumrad]

That sigh right there. I wanted to hear that sound in every single story. Because that sound is kind of our current moment, right? We live in a world where truth is no longer just a set of facts to be captured. It's become a process. It's gone from being a noun to being a verb. But how do you end that story? Like, what literally kept happening is we'd be, you know, telling a story, cruising along, two viewpoints and conflict. You get to the end and it's just like, now, let me see, what do I say at the end?

[EY Advertiser]

Oh my God, what do you.

[Jad Abumrad]

How do you end that story? You can't just like happily ever after. It. Cause that doesn't feel real. At the same time, if you just leave people in that stuck place, like, why did I just listen to that? Like, it felt like there had to be another move. There had to be a way beyond the struggle. And this, this is what brings me to Dolly, or Saint Dolly, as we like to call her in the South. I want to tell you about one little glimmer of an epiphany that I had doing a nine part series called Dolly Parton's America last year. It was a bit of a departure for me, but I just had this intuition that Dolly could help me figure out this ending problem. And here was the basic intuition. You go to a Dolly concert, you see men in trucker hats standing next to men in drag, Democrats standing next to Republicans, women holding hands, every different kind of person Smashed together. All of these people that we are told should hate each other are there singing together. She somehow carved out this unique space in America. And I wanted to know, how did she do that? So I interviewed Dolly 12 times, two separate continents. She started every interview this way.

[Dolly Parton]

Ask me whatever you ask me, and I'm gonna tell you what I want you to hear.

[Adam Grant]

Perfect.

[Jad Abumrad]

She is undeniably a force of nature. But the problem that I ran into is that I had chosen a conceit for this series that my soul had trouble with. Dolly sings a lot about the South. If you go through her discography, you will hear song after song about Tennessee.

[Dolly Parton]

Tennessee, Tennessee, Tennessee Homes it Tennessee I've got those Tennessee homes that blows running.

[Jad Abumrad]

Through my head Tennessee, Tennessee Mountain home Tennessee Mountain memories Now, I grew up in Tennessee, and I felt no nostalgia for that place. I was the scrawny Arab kid who came from the place that invented suicide bombing. I spent a lot of time in my room. When I left Nashville, I left. I remember being at Dollywood, standing in front of a replica. Replica of her Tennessee mountain home. People all around me were crying. This is a set. Why are you crying? I couldn't understand why they were so emotional, especially given my relationship to the South. And I started to honestly have panic attacks about this. Am I not the right person for this project? But then, twist of fate. We meet this guy, Brian Seaver, Dali's nephew and bodyguard. And on a whim, he drives producer Shima Olayai and I out of Dollywood, round the backside of the mountains and up the mountains, 20 minutes down a narrow dirt road, through giant wooden gates that look right out of Game of Thrones and into the actual Tennessee mountain home. But the real place, Valhalla, the real Tennessee Mountain home. And I'm going to score this part with Wagner, because you got to understand, in Tennessee lore, this is like hallowed ground. The Tennessee Mountain Home. So I remember standing there on the grass next to the Pigeon river butterflies, doing loop de loops in the air. And I had my own moment of wonder. Dolly's Tennessee Mountain home looks exactly like my dad's home in the mountains of Lebanon. Her house looks just like the place that he left. And that simple bit of layering led me to have a conversation with him that I'd never had before, about the pain he felt leaving his home and how he hears that in Dolly's music. Then I had a conversation with Dolly where she described her songs as migration music. Even that classic song, Tennessee Mountain Home, if you listen to it sitting on.

[Dolly Parton]

The front porch on a summer afternoon in a straight back chair on two legs leaned against the wall.

[Jad Abumrad]

It's about trying to capture a moment that you know is already gone. But if you can paint it vividly, maybe you can freeze it in place, almost like in resin, trapped between past and present. That is the immigrant experience. And that simple thought led me to a million conversations. Started talking to musicologists about country music as a whole. This genre that I've always felt so having nothing to do with where I came from, is actually made up of instruments and musical styles that came directly from the Middle East. In fact, there were trade routes that ran from what is now Lebanon right up into the mountains of East Tennessee. I can honestly say standing there, looking at her home was the first time I felt like I'm a Tennessean. That is honestly true. And this wasn't a one time thing. I mean, over and over again, she would force me beyond the simple categories I had constructed for the world. I remember talking with her about her seven year partnership with Porter Wagner. 1967, she joins his band. He is the biggest thing in country music. She is a backup singer, a nobody. Within a short time, she gets huge, he gets jealous. He then sues her for $3 million when she tries to leave. Now, it would be really easy to see Porter Wagner as like a tight, classic, patriarchal jackass trying to hold her back. But anytime I would suggest that to her, like, come on, this is a guy. I mean, you see it in the videos too. He's got his arm around you. There's a power thing happening for sure.

[Dolly Parton]

Well, it's more complicated than that. It's just. I mean, just think about it. He had had this show for years. He didn't need me to have his hit show. He wasn't expecting me to be all that I was either. I was a serious entertainer. He didn't know that. I mean, he. He didn't know how many dreams I had.

[Jad Abumrad]

In effect, she kept telling me, don't bring your stupid way of seeing the world into my story. Cause that's not what it was. Yeah, there was power, but that's not all there was. You can't summarize this. All right, just to zoom out, what do I make of this? Well, I think there's something in here that's a clue, a way forward. As journalists, we love difference. We love to fetishize difference. But increasingly, in this confusing world, we need to be the bridge between those differences. But how do you do that? I think for me now, the answer is simple. You interrogate those differences. You hold them for as long as you can until, like up on that mountain, something happens, something reveals itself. Story cannot end in difference. It's got to end in revelation. And coming back from that trip on the mountain, a friend of mine gave me a book that gave this whole idea a name. In psychotherapy, there's this idea called the third, which essentially goes like this. Typically, we think of ourselves as these autonomous units. I do something to you, you do something to me. But according to this theory, when two people come together and really commit to something, seeing each other in that mutual act of recognition, they actually make something new, a new entity that is their relationship. You can think of Dolly's concerts as sort of a cultural third space. The way she sees all the different parts of her audience, the way they see her creates the spiritual architecture of that space. And I think now that is my calling. That as a journalist, as a storyteller, as just an American living in a country struggling to hold every story I tell has gotta find the third. That place where the things we hold as different resolve themselves into something new. Thank you.

[Elise Hu]

That was Jad abumrad speaking at TED 2020. This talk was originally published in June 2020. If you're curious about TED's curation, find out [e-mail] curationguidelines and that's it for today. TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective. This talk was fact checked by the TED research team and produced and edited by our team, Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Greene, Lucy Little and Tansika Songmanivong. This episode was mixed by Christopher Faizy Bogan. Additional support from Emma Tobner and Daniela Balarazo. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed. Thanks for listening.

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[Dolly Parton]

We are the future. Hear us. It's our tomorrow you're building today. When you create technology put us at its heart. Think differently to build a better working world. Be confident. Do not allow the future to shape you. Shape it, and shape it for the better, if not for yourselves, for us.

[Steve Strogatz]

How will your decisions today shape the future for generations to come?

[Jad Abumrad]

Shape the future with confidence.