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How to set boundaries and find peace (w/ Nedra Glover Tawwab) | How to Be a Better Human
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- [00:00]
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- [01:40]
Elise Hu
Hey Ted Talks Daily listeners, I'm Elise Hu. Today we have an episode of another podcast from the TED Audio Collective handpicked by us for you. It's so important and so hard to identify what you want and need in your life. It's maybe harder still to communicate those wants and needs with others. So this week we're sharing an episode of how to Be a Better Human, featuring therapist and author Nedra Glover Tawab. Nedra speaks with host Chris Duffy about what healthy boundaries can actually look like and why learning how to identify your needs and advocate for them is the first step in a healthier relationship with yourself and those around you. If you want to hear more insights like this, listen to how to Be a Better Human Wherever you get your podcasts and learn about the TED audio collective@audiocollective.ted.com.
- [02:36]
Chris Duffy
You'Re listening to how to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. Here's an embarrassing fact about me and this feels like the perfect time to share it. I am very, very bad at setting boundaries. If you ask me to make time for a five minute phone call and then you speak for two hours, I will probably not say anything to object, even if I have somewhere else to be. If you tell me that the work that I'm doing for you for free is not good enough, I will probably redo it all. If you demand that I move out of my home and let you move in, I can't say that I will agree necessarily, but I'm definitely not sure that I will refuse. And look, now that you've heard that on this podcast, please don't test me on it. Don't try, because I'm worried that I might let you do it. And look, I know that this is not a good character trait. I'm not proud of this in myself. But drawing clear lines in the sand, it's hard for a lot of people, not just me. And that is why I am so excited for today's guest, Nedra Glover Tawab. Nedra is the author of the best selling book Set Boundaries, Find A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself and her new book drama Free, which tackles the area in which many people find it the hardest to set boundaries with family members. To get us started, here's a clip from a segment that Nedra did on the series the Way We Work.
- [03:50]
Nedra Glover Tawab
I'm a therapist whose job it is to help people create healthier relationships. And let me tell you, it can be really hard to tell someone what you need. It takes a lot of courage to stand up and say, this is the way I want to be treated. Most of us aren't so great at vocalizing to the people in our lives what makes us feel respected and valued. It's true with friends, family, family, partners. And it's also true at work.
- [04:21]
Chris Duffy
I am going to practice setting a clear boundary right now. This right here is the line between our show's intro and an ad break. We will be right back after this.
- [04:41]
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- [05:36]
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- [06:11]
Chris Duffy
Today we're talking with the author and therapist Nedra Glover Tawab about how to set healthy boundaries and communicate clearly about the way you want to be treated.
- [06:20]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Hi, I'm Nedra Glover Tawab, a licensed therapist and author of Set Boundaries, Find Peace and Drama Free.
- [06:28]
Chris Duffy
So in your first book, Set Boundaries, Find Peace, one of the things that I found most important interesting was just this idea that a lot of us feel guilty about setting boundaries because we think that there's somehow something rude about that. But there's plenty of ways to do it to set a boundary in a way that is totally not rude at all and is in fact a healthy thing to do.
- [06:50]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Absolutely. I think that the guilt is something we're taught as a way to get us to conform. Right. Like guilt is a powerful teaching tool for kids. It's like if you don't do that, this, if you make this person mad, then this people aren't teaching us how not to feel guilty, how to use our voice. I think it's very interesting how we want kids to be assertive, but we don't teach them assertiveness skills with us. They have to be able to be assertive with you too. They have to be boundaried with you as well in order for them to use it with other people.
- [07:25]
Chris Duffy
One of the things that I've Thought about a lot as I think about this idea of boundaries is how when I was working in an elementary school, you see so clearly how if you set a line for some kids, that's totally enough just to hear it from you, great, they understand the line. But then there is always a subset of the class who they're going to test that boundary. You can't just say it. You have to enforce it. They want to see what does that line look like in practice.
- [07:49]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Yeah, it's a verbal thing that we do. We say to people what we want, what we need, what we expect, what our rule is for ourself or the environment, the classroom or whatever that is. And we also can behave as if we have a boundary. The behavior piece is sometimes the part that we struggle with the most because we think once we've said it, that the other person will take our boundary and now implement it. And it's really up to us to enforce it through the behavior. So what I've seen is people may say, I've asked so and so not to call me during my work hours, and they still call, but this person is answering the phone. It's like, well, your behavioral boundary is saying it's okay to call, and you're actually not. Not busy. And so if you're actually busy, that behavior would look like maybe enforcing your boundary by not answering, since you've already said you're not available.
- [08:51]
Chris Duffy
At least for me, that is the harder part to do. When someone is, you know, exactly in that situation. Say, it's hard to be like, but they're emailing me, or they're calling. It must be important. I have to do it. It's scary to actually enforce the boundary.
- [09:03]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Each time that that happens. When there's someone you're clearly setting a boundary with, don't do this thing. This is how I want you to do whatever. We look at them disrupting that boundary as, it must be a crisis. That's why they showed up unannounced. It must be a crisis. That's why they're calling right now. And then you talk to the person and they're like, hey, how are you? You're like, what? There's no crisis. You just came over here unannounced for no reason. It's like, yeah, they did. You know why? Because they don't really want to adhere to your boundary. They're showing you through their actions that they have a whole nother boundary, and it's not. It's not the one that you intended.
- [09:45]
Chris Duffy
What are some of the Practical things that you think people should just like right away. Start with when they're trying to draw boundaries with people in their lives or situations that are kind of difficult.
- [09:54]
Nedra Glover Tawab
I would say pay attention to the things you complain most about. That person who stops by your desk for that super long chat, the person who doesn't seem to be listening as you're talking because they're distracted by their phone. So step one is to react a little faster because sometimes with boundaries, we'll let things go on for years and then when we finally set the boundary, the person is so offended because you've allowed them to do this thing forever and now it seems like you're making this swift change when in actuality you've been upset for seven years, they just didn't know it. Also, your boundaries can shift over time, right? Like your boundary at, you know, this point in life may not be your boundary in two years. So don't get so focused on, I must have this boundary forever. It is a thing you can transition. And you know, certain people don't need certain boundaries. So there are some people who naturally understand some things. So don't think you have to have these hard conversations with everyone. Just feel the relationship out sometimes to see who needs certain boundaries. And those things don't have to apply to all people. And lastly, don't think about boundaries as something you need to do in this big conversation. It can really happen in the moment. It can be really swift. It could be, you know, even lighthearted sometimes. I've certainly, you know, set boundaries in a very joking way, but it was serious. And I might even say, like, no, hey, serious, call me before you come next time. And it's possible sometimes to keep it light. So be mindful of your tone, be mindful of the place you're setting, the boundary, the surroundings, but certainly have a little fun with it sometimes.
- [11:47]
Chris Duffy
What are the most common types of boundaries that people who you work with struggle with?
- [11:52]
Nedra Glover Tawab
I feel like many people right now are having a lot of boundaries around being overwhelmed and not meeting other people's expectations. So they're over committing themselves. Time is a place where we allow people to dictate what we're supposed to be doing. So before the pandemic, people were so like, every weekend I have a party, I have a this, I have a that, I have a this. And I'm like, you can say no to these things. And people found so much pleasure in the, in the pandemic, unfortunately, just by being able to not have to go to all of these social Obligations or even family gatherings. And now if you enjoy not doing those things, you know, two years ago, you can still not do those things. Like, it's completely optional. I know you can't say no to every single thing, but you may want to place value on the relationships that are important. Every invite does not have the same level of. Of importance and it certainly shouldn't have the same level of commitment. Another thing that I see a lot of is, and sometimes we don't think about this as a boundary issue, but not asking for help, trying to do everything on their own. I talked to a few people who have, of varying ages, maybe try to do something in their house like stand on a ladder and do this thing. Broke their ankle. I'm like, why are you doing that? Like, you're not a roofer. Why were you even doing it? There are times when we don't have the skill set, we don't have the time, we don't have the mental capacity. And in those moments, we need to seek a friend, a professional, a neighbor or someone else to help. We have to get away from the spirit of diying our entire existence. You are not a self made person. You are a community based person and you need help from other people.
- [14:04]
Chris Duffy
It's interesting too to think about how asking for help requires being a little bit vulnerable and also requires admitting that you're not perfect. And at least in North American culture, right. There's a lot of stigma around both of those things. It's hard to be vulnerable. It's hard to admit that you can't do it all yourself and that you can't live up to the idealized version of someone who never needs anything from anyone else. That's. Those are challenges.
- [14:29]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Yeah. Yeah. I hope that we can embrace the big need that we have to receive help from other people. I think independence is often celebrated, right. Like you go from needing everything as a human from everyone else. You need someone to hold you, to change your diaper, to feed you. And the more independence you get, the more you're celebrated, right? Like, oh my gosh, look at you, you're able to do this thing, oh my gosh. And some of us don't know how to step back from that. You see it when, you know, you start to age or when you start to have a medical issue and you now need help from other people and it's just debilitating to be, oh my gosh, I can't drive because of my sight or oh my gosh, my foot is broken and I can't do this thing or oh my gosh, I have this chronic illness. It's like the grief that we have not being able to do things on our own. We have been taught that we always should be able to do it, when in actuality maybe we always needed help. Maybe it would be nice to have support at different areas. And I think it's good for our mental health to learn to lean on other people.
- [15:45]
Chris Duffy
Okay, so I took an intro to psychology class in college and on the first day of the psychology class the professor said, listen, I'm just going to say this right now. As we are learning about these conditions, you almost certainly don't have them. Every single time I teach this class, people come up and they self diagnose with all of the things. They instantly you read about it and it's hard to not relate to the issue. So people always come up to me and think that they have all the things we're learning about. I'm just saying it's possible, but you probably don't. I feel like talking to you and engaging with your work. It must be the case that so many people come up and are like, this is exactly me. Everything you said is me. Like, you can't help but see yourself in your books and in the lessons that you teach. Do you find that to be the case?
- [16:34]
Nedra Glover Tawab
I do find that to be the case. But I think as your psychology professor stated, with mental health diagnosis, and we see this a lot online now that you know, you'll see these listicles and you're like, yes, I have this thing. But the part we're not factoring in is life impact, right? Like you can have, you know, symptoms of whatever, but if it's not impacting your life in a particular way, then it doesn't meet criteria for you. Even when I'm talking about like codependency and enmeshment, I'm like, is it a problem for you or do you love the codependent relationship? Is everybody like happily codependent? Then you know, like, what is the problem? But sometimes what happens is with this type of work we will see that someone else is being taken advantage of. And the person hasn't stated that they have a problem with it. And it's like, no, I know that they have a boundary issue with these other people. So can we create goals for other people in their relationships around boundaries around having healthier relationships if that's not what they want?
- [17:52]
Chris Duffy
It actually goes to a really big thing that I wanted to ask you about and talk to you about, which Is you give this piece of advice that you cannot change people. However, you can ask that they honor your requests, and if they do not, then you have choices. So when we sometimes can see the problems and we want to be able to change the person, how do we do that? How do we actually put those into place?
- [18:15]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Well, when we see what the problem is and we go to the person and we say, hey, this is my issue. I would like whatever. And the person, sometimes they don't blatantly say, I won't do that. They just won't do it. You'll see it in their behavior, or they'll violate it in some way and you have a choice. I think about when people say things like, every time I tell my sister something, she tells my mom. If you go to your sister and you say, hey, I'm telling you this, please don't tell mom, and your sister continuously does that. Do you want to keep telling your sister? Do you want to tell her and be mad? Do you want to stop telling your sister?
- [18:58]
Chris Duffy
But you talk about how one of the real challenges can be. Then other family members almost take it personally, but they're like, well, no, you have to keep telling your sister stuff. That's how it works. And, you know, they might be upset because they're your father or your mother or another family member that feels like it somehow reflects on them, how do you then go about handling the ancillary people in the family? When you draw a boundary with one person.
- [19:21]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Yeah. That causes more conversations to occur. And one of those conversations could be, I understand that you have a different perspective about this situation, but this is what I'm choosing to do. Because what your parent is saying, this is what I would do with my sister, is not really sound advice for you. Because if you pull your sister out of the equation and say, hey, if I had a friend and I was telling this friend something, and every time I told this friend something, they told all our other friends, what would you suggest I do in that situation? If the parent is really big, non biased, they would very likely say, you should stop telling that friend that thing. So the solution to this is the same thing. It's just a different person who has a different role in my life. But the lowering of standards for the sibling relationship is actually not healthy. Because what I want to be able to do is speak to a person I can trust. I'm not ending a relationship. I am not saying, I will not see you at Thanksgiving. What I am saying is, I will not share certain information with this person. Based on how they share those things with other people. Please respect that.
- [20:42]
Chris Duffy
I think this is such a radical idea. Honestly, it's both extremely intuitive, right? Like what you're saying is like just because they're your mom or your dad or your sibling, they're also a person and a person shouldn't treat you this way. That is very intuitive. And yet it is so radical to think that we would hold everyone in our lives to the same standards. And the book is filled. I mean, every single chapter is like practical takeaway. So what are some that you feel like are the ones that are having the biggest impact or making the the most change for people?
- [21:15]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Mother in law relationships. And the challenge with mother in laws is we have this expectation that we have to like them. You don't, you don't have to like your mother in law. You know, if you have children, this is your child's grandparent, this is your partner's mother. But it doesn't have to be this close relationship. But many people believe like if we're not close, then that's problematic. And it's like, no, you get to choose your level of interaction with anyone. If you don't have a close relationship with a sibling, it doesn't mean that you don't have a relationship. It means you don't have a close relationship. But with in laws, there's this expectation that because this person is, you know, maybe an elder, that they have this information about how to be in relationships with other people. And it's not true. When you're dating someone, their family has their own, own cultural stuff going on and you're stepping into that and it's like your job is not really to change their whole system and to point out enmeshment and to point out who's favored all of these things that we do. It's really to figure out how do I be in relationship with these people? How do I, you know, maintain my sense of self? What are my boundaries and what is possible for these connections?
- [22:45]
Chris Duffy
Can you define enmeshment for us? Just because it's a term that I had never heard before I read your book.
- [22:49]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Ah. Enmeshment is when who we are, emotionally, mentally and physically is entangled with someone else. It becomes problematic when someone else doesn't want that level of closeness or they don't want to think like everyone else. When there's one person who's trying to have some autonomy or a few people, it becomes problematic because enmeshment means we function as being the same. We function as being very close in a certain way. And often with in law relationships, you're coming in and you're changing something in that. So there's gonna be pushback in that. But hopefully after a few years of being solid in your boundaries and kind of reconfiguring some things, things will, will settle if we are open to having some of these conversations. And guess what? Most in laws have had to do. They have. So it's, it's your turn.
- [23:51]
Chris Duffy
You also talk about codependency, which is different than enmeshment.
- [23:54]
Nedra Glover Tawab
So codependency is when we rescue or we are being rescued from negative and unhealthy behaviors. You see this a lot with a substance abusing family member or someone who has some financial issues, someone who may just have challenges with doing certain things. Codependency can happen in a parent, child relationship, a sibling, parent relationship, sibling relationship. But it's really you not allowing this person to have any consequences, any natural consequences for the chaos that they create.
- [24:37]
Chris Duffy
We're going to take a quick break right now, but we will be back with more from Nedra right after this.
- [24:51]
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- [24:55]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Perfect.
- [24:56]
Verizon Advertiser
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- [25:22]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Wow. What's up?
- [25:24]
Elise Hu
I just bought and financed a car through Carvana in minutes.
- [25:27]
Nedra Glover Tawab
You, the person who agonized four weeks.
- [25:29]
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Over whether to paint your walls eggshell.
- [25:31]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Or off white, bought and financed a car in minutes. They made it easy.
- [25:34]
Elise Hu
Transparent terms, customizable, down and monthly.
- [25:37]
Chris Duffy
Didn't even have to do any paperwork.
- [25:39]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Wow.
- [25:41]
Chris Duffy
Hey, have you checked out that spreadsheet.
- [25:43]
Elise Hu
I sent you for our dinner options?
- [25:45]
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- [25:47]
Chris Duffy
Total control financing subject to credit approval. And we are back. I think that one of the things that I find to be a real challenge and, and honestly a problem with a lot of shows that are kind of in the like self help, self improvement space is that often there's this idea that like, you can just fix it if you just try hard enough and if you, like, do these three steps, you'll be perfect. But you talk about a lot of stuff in both of your books that are really serious issues, right? Like, you talk about adverse childhood experiences. You talk about emotional, physical, sexual abuse. You talk about addiction. And a big message in your books is that a lot of this stuff is not necessarily fixable by you. You say, like, sometimes it might not work.
- [26:42]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Yeah, well, not every story has a happy ending, and that is really tough. Right? Like, we do like this prescriptive. If you do this, then blank. You know, sometimes I get that with people who are grieving and they come to therapy and they're like, I just want to feel better by next week. And I'm like, next week? So your parent died, you're 30, so 37 years of being a child and you'd like to be over this within a week. I cannot help you with that. Can't help you with that. What I can do is hold space for you to grieve. I don't know how long that grieving will be. I imagine it'll be lifelong because it seems like an important relationship. Will some of the symptoms subside? Absolutely. You won't be crying every day, all day. I don't know when that'll happen. I can't guarantee anything. There's no money back guarantee with any of the things I'm saying. What I'm saying is I hope. I hope by you saying this to this person, it will work. And also it's possible they have a different agenda.
- [27:53]
Chris Duffy
You also talk really powerfully about how. How to. And when to end a relationship or cut a relationship off.
- [28:02]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Yes. My biggest one is safety. So there are times in life where relationships are just unsafe, sometimes physically. I've talked to adults who are being physically hit by their parents when they do something. That's a situation where. That's domestic violence. You know, should you be in a relationship where you are physically unsafe? Should you be in a relationship where you are being verbally abused? Those are questions that a person has to answer for themselves. You know, there are times when people are not ready to leave a relationship. And I don't support leaving before you're ready. Right. It's really up to you because you will have to deal with how that estrangement feels. And it. It will be sad, it will be sometimes a loss, but sometimes knows it's a relief to not be in some of these unhealthy family relationships.
- [29:01]
Chris Duffy
You literally have like, Six questions that you should ask yourself before cutting off a toxic family member. Let's say someone's listening, and they've kind of thought about it, and they're like, this person who's in my life is really challenging. And they're. And they don't seem to want to hear me when I draw boundaries, and they don't seem to be a person that I can be around in a healthy way. How can the person then cut them off in a safe and healthy way for themselves? But then how can they also process the grief of losing someone? Because I think that can also be one of the real challenges of this.
- [29:32]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Yeah. Well, if you are processing a cutoff, I think finding support. So that support could be therapy. It could be conversations with family members that support the cutoff. It could be with friends or mentors or whoever you find to be within your support system. And it is hard and it is sad. It is a grieving process because it is a loss. It's a loss of a relationship that if the circumstances were different, you would have loved to have the relationship. Sometimes people's behaviors are so unhealthy that it is more harmful for you to be in a relationship with them. And when that is the case, you are not making an easy decision. And as you make that decision, you know, I do think the grief is part of the process, and it's not anything you can rush. There will be, you know, moments in the year, anniversary dates, where you may think about the person. There may be, you know, certain songs or different things that happen at family gatherings that cause you to think about the person. And for that, I would say allow it. It's okay to miss people. It's okay to be sad about not having them in your life. It's okay to wish that things were different and you don't have to. It's not anything you need to resolve. Over time, the loss will be less intense.
- [31:04]
Chris Duffy
So you give an example in the book where you're talking about a mother who's struggling to deal with one of her children who has an addiction issue. And she feels like if she sets any boundaries with this person, that they're going to kind of spiral out of control and she might lose them forever. She has some very real fears that her kid might. Might disappear even though this person is an adult, that they could end up on the streets or even die. And it's a really challenging situation for her to even think about putting boundaries anywhere on this person. Can you share a little bit more about how you address some of the fears in that situation.
- [31:37]
Nedra Glover Tawab
When we're worried, our brain goes to the worst case scenario. All of these terrible things can happen and it's like there is no other possibility. Lots of people have their own moment of saying, I'm tired of doing this. Is it possible that your level of helping this person is actually enabling them? And when I say enabling, meaning keeping them in the space of doing this thing that you would rather not see them do, that is codependency, feeling like if I did this then this person would suffer this consequence because of my lack of support towards their issue. When in actuality we don't know. And sometimes with addiction, the other person will make you feel that way. You know, if you don't help me, if you don't help me with this thing, I'm going to, you know, some, some horrible outcome. And you know, that's a manipulation tactic for sure. And it's sometimes it's true, sometimes they will, you know, do things to say, okay, you're going to help me with this. But it's, it's one of those things that you have to get some support around with addiction. I think Al Anon is a wonderful of space and community for people who have family members with addiction issues because there's so much manipulation and codependency and if I don't do this then or it's my fault because that you have to work yourself out of to even show up for this person.
- [33:11]
Chris Duffy
How important is culture in teaching or not teaching us about boundary setting? What's been your experience with the intersection of culture and boundaries?
- [33:19]
Nedra Glover Tawab
There are certainly communities where boundaries are discouraged because of the enmeshment, the cultural enmeshment in the family. Like you want to carry forth certain traditions. So if a person were to step away from that, it seems like a very offensive thing. But I think over time cultures change. Like if we really think about it, over time cultures have changed. And I wonder who was the boundary setter to change some of the things in the culture. So it's not like boundaries haven't been a part of cultures. It's just like we don't wanna be the person to break up that cultural dynamic. I heard a comedian, Yvonne Orji, talk about wanting to become an actress. And she was in college and she's Nigerian and her parents were like, oh no, like you must become a doctor, you must go to school for this thing. And she's like, no, I want to do this other thing. And you know, ultimately it worked out for her. She's a Successful actress. But I think she is saying, like, this is the thing I want to do. And you know, I think sometimes there is this idea like, oh my gosh, like you don't want to disappoint your family, but you also want to live your life. Like, aren't you your own cultural system? Like, aren't you creating your own personal culture? Aren't you creating a culture within your immediate family? Don't we want to decide for ourselves what our lives could look like?
- [34:55]
Chris Duffy
Well, Nedra, speaking exactly to that, I feel like you really have added to the culture with your writing. You're changing the culture with the way that you reframe the way we think about these things. One of the big things that you've reframed for me recently is in your new book, which is called Drama Free. Obviously, being human means that we're going to have conflict across our relationship. But I'm curious what it is that you mean by drama free and how you envision a life that can be drama free even if it's not conflict free, because those are different things in your mind.
- [35:27]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Drama to me is high intensity arguments, long term silent treatments, lots of conflict, often frequent chaos in the relationships, gossiping, just all of these things that might appear on like a 90s TV talk show, right? Like, and this person did this. Like, that's what I think of as drama. And I think when you have drama in families, it's not handled in a caring and loving way. When there's conflict, it's handled in a poorly executed way. It's handled in a high intensity sort of way. So just pulling people away from, you know, some of the things that we normally do because sometimes we think that drama is normal. We think chaos is comfort. And it's like there is another way to communicate this to people. There's another way to receive heart information. And it doesn't have to be this high chaos type of environment. There really can be some conversations that we can have and even disagree about without falling out or without having, you know, all of these, these sort of dramas.
- [36:45]
Chris Duffy
So what, what do you hope is the biggest takeaway that people take from your books and from this conversation and, and put into place in their own.
- [36:54]
Nedra Glover Tawab
Lives from Drama Free, I would love for people to have the takeaway of you are the person who can change your relationships. So often we think, oh, if this other person does this thing, then my life will be better. When in actuality, if I do this thing with this other person, my life can be better. So I want people to feel empowered, reading the book and to know that they have options and with Set Boundaries Find peace. You know, I think the title is the intention, right? Like it's like set boundaries and guess what? You'll get peace.
- [37:38]
Chris Duffy
Well, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for making the time to be here and I really encourage everyone listening to buy both of the books Drama Free and Set Boundaries Find Peace. They are incredible. And Nedra, thank you so much for being here.
- [37:51]
Nedra Glover Tawab
You're welcome.
- [37:54]
Chris Duffy
That is it for today's episode of how to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Nedra Glover. Tawab. I am your host Chris Duffy and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and information about my live comedy shows@chrisduffycomedy.com how to be a Better Human is brought to you on the TED side by Daniela Balorazzo, Whitney Pennington Rogers, and Jimmy Gutierrez, who are finally reconsidering their previous motto of set no boundaries, find war. Every episode of our show is professionally fact checked. This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Matthias Salas, who clearly communicate their need for sources and for references. On the PRX side, our show is put together by a team that when the communication isn't clear, they use the backup audio and if that's not clear, they run the whole thing through noise reduction software. Morgan Flannery, Rosalind Tordesilius and Jocelyn Gonzalez. And of course, thanks to you for listening to our show and making this all possible. If you're listening on Apple, please leave us a five star rating and review. And if you're listening on the Spotify app, answer the discussion question that we put up there. We would love to hear your thoughts. We will be back next week with even more how to be a better human.
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