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Sunday Pick: How to find true love (w/ Francesca Hogi) | from How to Be a Better Human
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- [00:00]
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- [00:34]
Podcast Sponsor Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Grow Therapy. Was January supposed to be your big fresh start? Well, sometimes the pressure to fix everything at once can leave us feeling stuck. Grow Therapy makes it easier to reset at your own pace with therapy that's covered by insurance and built around your life. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you and not the other way around. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity or availability and get started in as little as two days. There are no subscriptions, no long term commitments. You just pay per session. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as zero depending on their plan. Visit GrowTherapy.today to get started. That's GrowTherapy.com TED availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. This episode is brought to you by Pura. You know those rare moments when everything just exhales? Pura's well Being collection is designed for exactly that. Their smart diffusers let you customize fragrance to match however you're feeling, whether you need to unwind, focus, or just make your space feel more like you right now. Subscribe to Two Cents for 12 months and get a free Pura set. It's a small shift that can change the whole energy of your day. Explore the collection@pura.com Moods. Hey TED Talks Daily listeners. I'm Elise Hu. Today we're bringing you a Sunday pick, and that's where we share an episode of another podcast from the TED Audio Collective and handpicked by us for you. Yesterday was Valentine's Day, a holiday that's become synonymous with celebrating love and relationships. So in honor of love, we thought it would be fun to share a recent episode of how to Be a Better Human, where host Chris Duffy sits down with love coach Francesca Hoagie. She's dedicated to helping daters find lasting love in the midst of a broken dating culture. In this conversation, Francesca shares her approach to analyzing romantic patterns so we can feel more empowered in our love lives. From discussing romantic manifestations to reflecting on Bell Hook's claim that humans are unskilled at love, Chris and Francesca talk about the ways we can all be more open to love. How to Be a Better Human is a show that looks in unexpected places for new ways to improve and show up for one another. If you want to hear more insights like this, listen to how to Be a Better Human wherever you get your podcasts, Learn more about the TED audio Collective at AudioCollective TED Audio. And now onto the episode. Enjoy.
- [03:40]
Chris Duffy
You're listening to how to Be a Better Human. I'm your host Chris Duffy and today's episode was recorded in front of a live audience in Vancouver at the 2025 TED conference. This month on the show, we're thinking about love and who could be a better guest for a love conversation than the author of how to Find True Love, Francesca Hogie. Francesca is many things. She's an author, she's a love coach, she's a former competitor on the TV show Survivor. But above all else, Francesca is someone who really believes in the magic and potential of romance. But at the same time, she's very realistic about what love is not. So whether you are single and determined to stay that way, whether you are in a committed relationship looking for love or something else entirely, Francesca's got insights that I feel very confident are going to resonate with you. To get us started, here's a clip.
- [04:29]
Francesca Hoagie (TED Talk Excerpt)
From Francesca's TED Talk the Fairytale Industrial Complex has been lying to you through a pervasive web of marketing, advertising, music, movies and more. It said that while you can't buy love, you can buy your worthiness of being loved. Its commodification of romantic love as a storybook fantasy can be summed up in three simple words. Happily ever after. Happiness forever. If only you're lucky enough and good enough and good looking enough to be chosen by a high status partner, ideally.
- [05:12]
Francesca Hoagie
In a romantic comedy worthy moment.
- [05:15]
Francesca Hoagie (TED Talk Excerpt)
Over the last 10 years I have spoken to thousands of people about their romantic hopes and dreams and I can report that for many, their vision of an ideal relationship is straight out of the fairytale fantasy playbook. Which is no wonder, given that happily ever after is used to sell us everything from makeup to cars to chewing gum. We've incorporated this propaganda into our real life approach to relationships, which disconnects us from love, which disconnects us from self worth and causes genuine confusion about compatibility. Instead of making us feel that love is an abundant, infinitely renewable resource inside of us, which it is, it tries to convince us that love is external and scarce. It's time to consider a new possibility for our collective romantic future, one that centers self love, self worth and prioritizes making romantic choices in alignment with our authentic values. No purchase required.
- [06:31]
Chris Duffy
We're going to be right back with more from Francesca after this short break.
- [06:44]
Podcast Sponsor Announcer
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- [08:00]
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- [08:36]
Chris Duffy
Today we're talking about love with Francesca Hoagie, author of how to Find True Unlock your Romantic Flow and Create lasting Relationships. This episode was recorded in front of a live audience at the TED Conference in Vancouver, British Columbia.
- [08:50]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
Francesca is the author of the new book how to Find True Love. It's really fantastic. I recommend it. I have a lot of things that I want to talk about in it, but Francesca, let's first start with kind of a really big question. Which is, what is the purpose of love?
- [09:05]
Francesca Hoagie
Ooh. Oh, gosh, no. Softball question. I love it. Well, I think that the purpose of our lives, maybe not the ultimate, but maybe the ultimate purpose of our lives is to learn to be more loving, More loving to ourselves, to other people, to learn how to give and receive more love. I really see us all on a lifelong love journey that has lots of different phases. And maybe you're in a dating phase, maybe you're in a relationship phase. Maybe you're somewhere in between. But I think that that's what makes us truly human.
- [09:42]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
And you have this line that you start with. It's really early in the book. It's literally on page one that true love is an inside job.
- [09:48]
Francesca Hoagie
Yeah.
- [09:48]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
So can you talk a little bit more about that?
- [09:50]
Francesca Hoagie
I don't think that I ever would have come to this conclusion if not for the fact that I have spent the last 12 years helping other people with romantic love. Because it's one thing to have your own experience and your own journey, but it's another thing when, in order to pay your bills, you have to help other people with love. Right.
- [10:08]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
It's a hard job.
- [10:09]
Francesca Hoagie
It's a hard job. And I started as a matchmaker. I used to be a corporate lawyer. And through a series of events, I wound up going to matchmaking school, and I became a matchmaker. And I was, like, so naive at the beginning. I was like, this is gonna be so great. I'm just gonna introduce everyone to their perfect partner. And I was very much in that mindset, which I now really debunk in the book, which is it's really just about introducing someone to the right person, and you do that, and then everything else was gonna work out. I learned that that's not the case. Right. And I learned that I would work with clients, and I could see how I have two clients who have basically the same sort of profile. And for one, getting into a relationship would be really easy, and for another, it would be much more challenging. But the desire was the same. And I was like, okay, so what's going on here? And it really became obvious that we all have beliefs about love. We have ways that we think about love. We have ways that we feel about ourselves. And all of that is more important than how many people you meet. All of those things that we might think, like, oh, how old you are or how, you know, attractive you are, you know, conventionally speaking or demographically, where you are, it just. It's like, oh, this is really actually about what's going on inside of you.
- [11:33]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
One of the things that I would imagine you get a lot as a matchmaker is people telling you their list of what they're looking for.
- [11:39]
Francesca Hoagie
Yes.
- [11:39]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
And I thought one of the most interesting parts of the book to me is you talk about one of your clients who had this very, very specific type of person that they were looking for. But you say a client once said, being with a black Christian man is my heart's desire. It's the only thing I'm open to. And then you say for my client herself, black and Christian, that was her truth and the only kind of person she'd ever been attracted to. Despite knowing people of many different backgrounds. If you feel similarly convicted to only be with someone of a particular group, that is, of course, your choice to make. However, the reason why you've made that choice is worth examining.
- [12:12]
Francesca Hoagie (TED Talk Excerpt)
Yes.
- [12:13]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
I thought that was a really interesting idea, and I'd love for you to tell us a little bit more about what you mean by that.
- [12:18]
Francesca Hoagie
I think if we can imagine the most evolved, spiritually aligned and open, loving version of ourselves, like, we wouldn't see things like race and we wouldn't. None of these things that. These preferences that we have, we wouldn't have them. But we're human, right? So we have our preferences. But sometimes people really, really box themselves in and really work against themselves because they're so strict in their preferences. And I always say, you know, all of my clients or anyone I talk to who's single, if you have a list of what you're looking for in a person, that's fine. That list could be. You could have a thousand things on that list. That's fine. But first of all, you need to prioritize, right? Because that's not a human, that's a unicorn. Right? But also, you need to just understand what everything on your list has to actually do with the relationship that you're going to have. Because there are a lot of things that people put on their list that doesn't come from what is actually in their heart's desire. It doesn't actually come from what they care about experiencing with their partner. It comes from their idea of who they should be with. For this particular client, you know, we really talked about this, and she's like, no, it's not. This is really what I feel called to have. I'm like, great. I would never try to talk anybody out of that. But sometimes I hear people say things like, oh, I only want to be with somebody who's, you know, fill in the blank. And. And when I ask them, okay, well, why? And they'll just say things like, well, those are the only people who've ever been attracted to me. Or, that's the only kind of person I've ever dated. Like, when people are talking about what they want, it's very often there's just a filter of, well, who do I think wants to be with me? And that's where I'm starting. And it's like, well, what if you just wipe the slate clean? And, you know. And one of the things that, you know, I'm always talking to my clients about, and I obviously talk about in the book, is moving past this idea of this perfect person that you see yourself with and really think about, what do I actually want the relationship to feel like, what I want to experience with my partner. And so often we use these external traits as a proxy for what we think the relationship will be. I mean, I work with all sorts of clients, but the majority of my clients are professional women who date men. So it's very common for me to hear something like, oh, well, I need somebody who has a certain level of education or who makes a certain amount of money. And I'll say, okay, well, why? Because, again, you can want whatever you want, but it's important to know why you want it. And I hear all the time a version of, well, if I'm with somebody who has this level of success, this level of education, this level of income, then they'll be supportive of me. Then they won't be intimidated by me, then they'll root for me. And they won't. But it's like, okay, well, that's what you really want. So what you really want is somebody who's gonna be supportive of you. You want somebody who's gonna root for you. You want somebody who's not gonna be intimidated by your success. And guess what? There are plenty of people who make way more money than you do and have more education who won't meet that criteria. So rather than using the education and the resume as a proxy for what you really want, actually focus on what you really want.
- [15:32]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
You talk about. People often think of standards of having standards in dating as meaning who they would date. Like, I would not date a man who is shorter than 6ft. I would not date a woman who looks in this different way. And you talk about the standards that we should care about are the standards, for once you're in the relationship with a person, how they're going to treat you, how you two will relate to one Another, that those are actually the really important standards. But people tend to think about them less. And often there's like, this implicit idea that if I could get a man who was 6, 3 and has blond hair and green eyes and makes $250,000 a year, then it actually doesn't matter how he treats me.
- [16:10]
Francesca Hoagie
Yeah, Very often I'll hear things like, oh, well, you know, I'm not going to settle. I'm not going to settle for less than what I want. But it is these external characteristics. But then oftentimes you talk to people, you talk about their relationship history, you talk about their dating history, and you realize they're settling for trash in terms of, like, you know, how they're treated, how much somebody really sees them for who they are, appreciates them for who they are. And that's part of this, you know, external focus. And I don't blame anyone because, you know, in our culture, we are very conditioned to be externally focused in general, and certainly when it comes to romantic relationships and the idea of who's eligible and, you know, who's a catch. And it's. It's not like, oh, this person's a catch because they're so respectful and they treat me so well. It's like, oh, this person's a catch because they have this kind of job, they look this certain way, they have these certain credentials. And so it's time for us to move past that.
- [17:09]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
You also talk several different times in the book about how it's really important to whoever you are, not just at face value, except the messages that we sometimes get from society and culture about desirability or beauty or dateability. You talk a lot in the book about the messages that you've received as a black woman about who might be willing to date you and whether you are a desirable dating commodity or not, and how important it is to push back against some of those messages.
- [17:39]
Francesca Hoagie
I wrote this book for everyone, regardless of your race, your gender, your sexual orientation. However, I had to specifically talk to black women because we get so many messages as Black women. Like, we're the least desired, we're the least favorited on dating apps. We're the least this, we're the least married. And there's so much. I mean, sometimes I'm like, it seems like there's like a media conspiracy to make black women think that nobody wants to date you. And you really have to decolonize your mind from that, because if you're seeing yourself inherently as there's. Who I am inherently makes me, therefore, less Desirable. I mean, first of all, I feel like if there's somebody who doesn't want to be with me because I'm a black woman, like, please take yourself out of the running. Like, that's great. Like, bye. You know, it's much more productive to focus on the people who do want you. But we do have to think about, how much am I holding myself back? How much am I. How much am I, again, assuming who is going to be interested in me because of these narratives? And this. I'm speaking specifically about black women in this instance, but this is for anyone, because if you think, oh, I'm fill in the blank. Everybody has their blank that they can fill in. That might make you think that you're going to be less desirable. But I also think there's a larger point here about how part of the conditioning that we get around romantic love is that we need to have so many options. Right. And the more options you have, the better. And, you know, you can see that on dating apps, like, people who are really trying to make themselves as marketable to as many people as possible. Right. Like, I want to get as many matches as possible. I want to have as many options as possible. And I just really push back against that because it's like, you don't want. You don't want to date everybody. Why do you want everybody to date you? Right. And so it's actually a much more effective strategy to really know who you are, to develop a loving relationship with yourself and then show up as yourself. Because how else will people recognize you as the right person for them? And how else will you know when you're with somebody? Like, oh, yeah, this feels right for me.
- [19:53]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
You know, On a previous episode of this show, we interviewed Priya Parker about the art of gathering. And something she said that it feels really parallel is she's like, the way to have a really boring party is to make it an event that anyone would want to go to. Like, what you want is to come up with an idea where some people are going to say, that is not for me.
- [20:11]
Francesca Hoagie
Yeah.
- [20:12]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
Because other people then are going to be like, oh, that's totally for me.
- [20:15]
Francesca Hoagie
Yeah.
- [20:15]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
And I feel like you're saying the same thing with dating, which is, like, you want people to see who you are in a way, where some of them are going to go, that is not my type of person.
- [20:23]
Francesca Hoagie
Exactly, exactly. I think that in that sense, and I think if people could have that attitude, they would save themselves so much more angst rather than feel like I need to be quote Chosen, I need to be liked. A lot of people are dating from a place of wanting to be liked and wanting to be chosen more than finding somebody who they really like. Right. And that more of a mutual choosing. I had a brief period of time where I was on dating apps in the early days of Tinder and I would always. Because I'm just kind of a strange person. And I always wanted to lead with that because I'm like, if you're not down with me being a weirdo, there's no point. And so I would send these weird messages to people cause I just wanted them to. It was like my weeding out process because there'd be people who'd be like, why are you asking me that? And be like, okay, great, you're not my person. But the people who are like, who could roll with me and be like, okay, that's a weird question, but I'm going to answer it anyway. That was like. I'm like, yes, that's who I'm looking for. So I think everyone could do with being a little bit more weird and leading with your weirdness.
- [21:36]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
I love that.
- [21:40]
Chris Duffy
We're going to be back with more wonderful weirdness right after this break. So don't go anywhere.
- [21:49]
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- [22:44]
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- [23:14]
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- [23:54]
Chris Duffy
And we are back. We're talking about love, attraction and relationships with Francesca Hogie.
- [24:00]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
Going back to this idea that you have to like, decolonize your mind a little bit and stop yourself from taking in all these messages that you've heard about whether you're desirable or not. Just on a practical level, how do you do that? Like, what steps can a person take to actually make those changes?
- [24:15]
Francesca Hoagie
I break the book down into four parts or four steps in this journey of finding true love. And the first step is to think bigger about love. So it's about your love mindset and, and a big part of that is just literally confronting some of these beliefs that you have about love in these ways that you have been conditioned to think about love. And I'm never expecting anybody to have like a 180 degree switch in a moment, though sometimes that does happen. But at least start to like chip away and consider a different perspective, consider a different possibility. But also it's important to actually be clear on, well, what do I think about love, right? What do I think is the point purpose of relationships? Like, what are those beliefs that I have about who wants to be with me or who I should be with? And like literally write them down and look at them and like start to say like, oh, is that even true? Is that always true? Like, you know, and just start to get more curious about some of these beliefs and assumptions that you have rather than just assume that, you know, this is just how it is.
- [25:20]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
There's so many really practical steps and there's exercises and activities and. But the four big steps to bring yourself into a place where you can find true love, you say are step one, change how you think about love to work on your mindset. Step two, feel better about love and yourself working on your heart set. Step three, connect with a higher love soul set. And then step four, date in alignment with love skill set. I found that reading this book and thinking about it, the idea that you have to change Your mindset and the idea that you have to change your skill set and the way that you feel about yourself. Those all really, like, they instantly were things that I could relate to. I feel like the one that I struggled with, at least initially. I mean, I think you do a really persuasive job of communicating it, but I felt like soulset was one that I initially struggled with a little bit. Because sometimes there's this idea that we have to manifest. We have to attract this into our lives.
- [26:18]
Francesca Hoagie
We do.
- [26:21]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
But here's my initial hesitation with that is when I hear it like that, it seems like it can sometimes put blame on the people who aren't in relationships or have had bad luck. Like, it's not just random chance. It's your fault. You haven't like manifested hard enough. You didn't attract, like, the reason you're alone isn't because your partner did something wrong. It's because you didn't manifest hard enough. And I know that's not what you're saying, but I'd love to have you respond to that because I think that's an idea out there in the world.
- [26:50]
Francesca Hoagie
It is an idea out there in the world. And yes, that is absolutely not what I'm saying. It's not about blame. But I think, okay, like, even if we just take a step back and let's substitute romantic love with another area of life, right? Like, say it's your professional career and is it your fault if you have had a professional career that's rocky and maybe you've had a lot of jobs that haven't worked out and maybe you keep running up against the same kind of obstacles over and over again. It's not that it's quote, necessarily your fault, but it is your responsibility to say, okay, I am half of the equation here, so what can I learn from this and what might I need to shift? Like, maybe I need to stop applying for these jobs that I think is the kind of job that I should have, when actually it's not at all what I want to do. For instance, right? The soul set piece of the book was the hardest part to write because I didn't want people to feel like I was blaming them. And I didn't want it to feel so woo woo that it felt inaccessible or like, you know, I don't say, make a vision board. It's not that kind of book. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I didn't want anyone to think that, like, oh, she's talking about the soul. She's Talking about manifesting love, it's really just understanding that, like, just as for some people, it's easier to make a friend, you tend to attract people into your life who are really great friends, or you tend to attract certain opportunities into your life with more ease than other people. It's not that there's anything wrong or bad about those other people, but there is. Is something that can be learned and can be more aligned. This is not about being perfect. This is never about being perfect. And so manifesting is not about being perfect. None of this is about being perfect. But it is understanding that we do have certain patterns of things that we attract in our lives. And if you can get curious about that and start to think about, well, if I'm attracting something, if I have this pattern that keeps showing up that I don't want, then I see it as empowering to say, okay, actually there's something that I can shift here. Not like it's your fault and, you know, that's. You're doomed.
- [29:02]
Wise App Advertiser
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- [29:03]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
And I also think that something you said that really resonated with me is thinking about this idea of, like, soulset. And the idea of bringing yourself into a place where you're open to find love is also about, like, not believing that it's impossible. Because if you do believe it's impossible, even if it's right there in front of you, you kind of shut. You shut down the possibility.
- [29:23]
Francesca Hoagie
Yes.
- [29:24]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
So can I have you read that paragraph there?
- [29:26]
Francesca Hoagie
Okay. Perfect faith at every moment isn't required. Remember that we don't have to be perfect to have true love. We already have love's perfection within us. So don't worry about that. Simply recognize that if you believe in a universe where you personally have no ability to have the love you want due to who you are, you, it's going to be extremely difficult for you to manifest true love. Belief that love is the strongest force in the universe and that nothing excludes you from its power is worth adopting for yourself. It also happens to be true.
- [29:57]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
I really like that. And it made me think of. I grew up in New York City. One time I was walking by H and H bagels and there was a man with a sign outside that said, hungry, please help. And I wanted to help him. So I went in and I was getting my own bagel and I bought another bagel and I went out and I gave it to him and he said, truly, genuinely, oh, no, another bagel. And I was kind of like, you're in front of a store that only.
- [30:29]
Francesca Hoagie
Sells bagels saying that you're hungry. Yes.
- [30:32]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
And I'm certainly not trying to put blame on him, but I think that.
- [30:36]
Francesca Hoagie
He needed to manifest something different. He could do something different.
- [30:42]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
I think that a parallel situation happens to many people in relationships.
- [30:47]
Francesca Hoagie
Yes.
- [30:47]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
Where they're like, I'm out here looking for some sort of food and I just keep getting handed bagels. And they don't realize that if you moved 100ft in either direction, you might have more options.
- [31:01]
Francesca Hoagie
It is definitely a very common thing that people approach dating in the exact same way over and over and over again. Choosing the same types of people, engaging the same dynamics when they're meeting people, and then ending up in the same type of relationship and then being very frustrated and feeling like, why does this keep happening to me? And it's again, it's not about blame, but it is about, you are in front of a bagel store, right. And you're asking for food, and so that's what you're going to get. It's very helpful to reflect on your past experiences and to really be like, okay, this is how it began, right. Then this happened, then this happened, then this happened. And there's so much commonality. And our patterns are not just happening to us without our cooperation. I mean, we are sort of on autopilot and we have the things that we habitually do. But it's not as if though you're doing things and you have all these different approaches and it just. The same thing keeps happening over and over again. Like there is that agency that you have. And that's one of the things that I really want to convey, and I really tried to convey in this book is that we have more romantic agency than we might think. And we might have been kind of programmed to think because we are kind of conditioned to think that it's this romantic love is this magical thing that just kind of happens to us rather than see ourselves as co creators.
- [32:26]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
You several times in this book quote from bell hooks. And I personally love the way bell hooks writes about love. One of the things that you quote is bell hooks saying that most of us are unskilled at love.
- [32:37]
Francesca Hoagie
Yes.
- [32:38]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
And the other is about fantasy. And one of your clients who is maybe being held back by these fantasies of what a relationship should be like versus the reality of the people.
- [32:48]
Francesca Hoagie
Yeah.
- [32:48]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
I'm curious to hear about those specific moments. But also maybe just more generally, what bell hooks is work has meant to you in the work that you do.
- [32:55]
Francesca Hoagie
You know, it's meant a lot. I think that there's such a rigor and, like, a seriousness with which she looks at love, you know, including romantic love. That is often absent from a conversation about romantic love. And that has been, you know, very helpful to me personally and certainly in the work that I do to have that sort of elevation in how we think about love, because we're very focused in our culture on love as an emotion. So we want to feel love, but we are not as generally focused on love as a verb, as an action, as a thing that we do, as a choice that we make. Bell Hook said, we are generally unskilled at love because it's not something that we get a lot of education around. Right. It's just like, oh, you just want to feel it. You just want to feel it and not do it. And I think her words have really given me a very tangible way to help to communicate to people honestly about, like, this is actually a skill. Relationships are a skill. All of the things that go into making a successful relationship work are actually skills and not just a feeling. Yeah.
- [34:09]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
You know, Bell hooks has many books on love, but one is specifically about men and love. And you said that many of your clients are professional women who date men. I know that in my personal experience, I am a straight man. And I think that sometimes it can be harder to communicate about love, to understand, like, access to all of these emotions because of all the social pressures around what is permitted within masculinity. And just in my own personal life, when I think about, like, single people, I know. I know so many unbelievably talented, smart, beautiful, single women who I would, like, recommend to anyone. And then I have single male friends who are weapons I would not inflict on an enemy. And I think that I'm not the only one.
- [34:57]
Francesca Hoagie
You're not the only one who has.
- [34:57]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
That relationship where it's like, do you know anyone you could introduce me to? And I'm like, I do, but you do not want that.
- [35:03]
Francesca Hoagie
Yeah. So what do you do?
- [35:06]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
That's what I was gonna ask.
- [35:07]
Chris Duffy
What do you do?
- [35:08]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
What do you do?
- [35:08]
Francesca Hoagie
How do you do it? Yeah, Yeah. I mean, look, it is absolutely the case that, you know, toxic masculinity and patriarchy doesn't just harm women, it harms men. Right. Because it harms many men's ability to access, you know, emotions like love and vulnerability and to deal with a lot of the discomfort of emotion and being human and being in relationship. So in general, yes, there are more men who have less skill at love and relationships than women do. Absolutely. In an individual Person's love journey. It's important to not let the predominant. What might be the predominant circumstance start to impact you too much. In terms of, like, what I mean by that is, like, if I was looking for a job in a bad job market, you might be like, okay, yeah, this isn't a great job market, but you still could be pretty committed to getting a good job, right? And still know that, like, even though most of the jobs in this market are not for me, like, I'm still gonna find a good job. And it's really. That's kind of the same mindset that you have to have, which is, you know, is every straight man in your city, town, or country gonna be a good match for you? No, absolutely not. But I believe that we have the ability to always find people who are actually great for us. But it might take you having a level of openness that you didn't always have, which doesn't mean. And I think when I say things like this, people are like, but I don't want to have to date anybody. It's not about dating just anyone, but it is about saying, okay, what are the things that are the most important to me here? Because if I'm, like, looking for a man who's gonna come, like, fully formed and, like, you know, all of the things that checks all the boxes and has all of the emotional intelligence and has all of the level of. And that's like, I'm looking for that and I'm not. And if I don't see that, then I'm like, okay, there's no one for me. But if you start to just, like, focus a little bit more on, okay, what are the core. And, you know, and one of the things I talk about in the book is relationship values, right? So what are these core relationship values, which I really think of as your relationship needs, and you start looking for those things instead, right? So if you're like, okay, for instance, I wanna have a family and I wanna be with somebody where we really prioritize our family, then start looking for men who have that, versus looking for a man who has. You know what I mean? You just have to kind of not take everything at face value and start looking a little bit deeper.
- [37:52]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
Those values that you were saying, those are the foundation of true love. But some of these you can build over time, but some of them kind of need to be there from the start. So certainly physical safety needs to be there from the start. Which of the other ones grow with time and which ones are like, they have to just Be there from day one. Because if they're not there, this is clear. We have to leave. This isn't the right person.
- [38:15]
Francesca Hoagie
Yeah. I mean, commitment can grow over time. Absolutely. I think that intimacy grows over time. I think that respect has to be there from day one. Like, the idea that you have to earn somebody's respect is like, no, that's. To me, the respect needs to be there and needs to be there from day one. And I think the safety needs to be there from day one. And those are the things that I feel are really, really, really critical. And then everything else does and hopefully will grow over time.
- [38:50]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
I think also, if I can just give advice based on your book, too. I think for men. I think that one of the things that I would say that is in this book is there's a lot of cultural pressure against doing the first steps, like finding love in yourself and loving yourself and feeling like you're worthy and like your worth isn't because you got a good job or you're able to fix things or you have a partner who is attractive. Right. Like, I think doing the work to be like, it's, I am worthy and I can love myself. There's not a lot of support for men to do that. And I think that doing that work is so important. And then the second thing I would say is there's just so much pressure on men to be able to, like, fix problems, to solve problems, and that is actually really unhelpful in relationships. Like, instead, to be able to be vulnerable and be with someone experiencing a problem rather than trying to solve it is a really big and challenging thing for most straight men in our society, at least. I think.
- [39:56]
Francesca Hoagie
Yeah, I agree with that. But I think. And tell me if you agree with this, Chris. I think that this is starting to shift. And I do think it's that more and more men are becoming more able to look a little bit deeper and to start to examine the relationship that they have with themselves. And I think that we are at a not great moment in our dating culture, and that's not fun for people who are dating. But I do think that the upside is that we're bumping up against the limits of what doesn't work.
- [40:28]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
Yeah.
- [40:29]
Francesca Hoagie
And that is actually good because now it's an opportunity for people to say, okay, I've been trying to do this thing this one way, and that's not it. So it's time to actually start to do things a little bit differently. And I see there's this pushback. You know, there's a lot of men who are trying to really hold on to an old way of thinking. But I do think that there's also a new movement of men who are like, okay, I actually do have to get in touch with my emotions. My relationship with myself actually does matter. The fact that I don't feel worthy unless I have X, Y, Z. Like, that actually seems to be getting in my way because I do believe that despite societal conditioning, that men want love as much as women do.
- [41:17]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
Oh, I absolutely believe that.
- [41:19]
Wise App Advertiser
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- [41:19]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
On my optimistic days, I agree with you that we're moving in the right direction. But other days I wake up and feel like.
- [41:24]
Francesca Hoagie
And you look at the news and you're like, oh, gosh. Yeah.
- [41:27]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
Other days I think, like, what's the ascendant view of masculinity today? And it doesn't seem like it's the good one.
- [41:33]
Francesca Hoagie
Yeah. But I think conversations like this are helpful because, I mean, I have empathy for all of us because who teaches us about this? I mean, I used to hate when people would say to me, like, oh, you need to love yourself more. What does that mean? Am I supposed to just wake up and be like, oh, my God, I'm amazing? Like, look in the mirror. Oh, my God, you're amazing. Like, that's not healthy. And I have a whole chapter about self love in the book, by the way. That's about tactics and how to really, you know, practice that. But I think that the more tools that we give people, then the better it is. Then the easier it'll be for men who want to actually have deeper connections and women, everyone, regardless of gender, that then they'll be, oh, okay, there is a path forward because it's not helpful to say to anybody, well, you just need to feel more worthy.
- [42:23]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
You know, in dating, there's often this idea and this big focus on the idea of finding the one of having a soulmate. Can you talk about your philosophies behind soulmates or the one. How do you respond to people who have that idea?
- [42:36]
Francesca Hoagie
So I think that there's more than one for everyone. I think that the idea that there is only one perfect person is very unhelpful. We would never think that there's only one person who could be our best friend. There's only one person who could be, you know, our. A great mentor or, you know, anything. And it's only romantic love that we tend to put in this special category. I think that soulmates come in lots of shapes and sizes. I think that we have multiple soulmates in our lives and some of those are romantic and some of them are not. And I think that the more expansive a view you have of love and of human connection, the more you will find the ones. They will come into your life more easily and you will be able to recognize them and receive their love more easily.
- [43:25]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
Amazing.
- [43:26]
Podcast Sponsor Announcer
Yeah.
- [43:26]
Chris Duffy (Interviewer)
Well, Francesca Hoge, thank you so much for being here. Thank you all so much for you.
- [43:29]
Chris Duffy
Thanks. That is it for today's episode of how to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to Francesca Hoagie. Her book is called how to Find True Love and you can find out more about her and and her love coaching and all of her incredible projects@francescahoegie.com I am your host Chris Duffy and my new book Humor How Laughing More can make you present, Creative, connected and Happy is out. Now you can fall in love with my book and find out more about my live shows and all the other things that I do@krisduffycomedy.com how to be a Better Human is put together by a swoon worthy team of dreamboats. On the TED side we've got Heartthrob hq, Daniela Ballorezo, Ban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Xasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tanzika, Sung Manivong, Antonia Le and Joseph de Bruyne. This episode was fact checked by Matthias Salas who passionately loves the truth. On the PRX side, they are looking deep into your soul while a gentle breeze ruffles their perfectly coiffed hair. I'm talking about Morgan Flannery, Nor Gill and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks to you for listening. We love you. Please send this episode to anyone and everyone. As an audio Valentine, you have to give one to the whole class.
- [44:38]
Francesca Hoagie
Those are the rules.
- [44:39]
Chris Duffy
We will be back next week with even more how to be a Better Human. Until then, take care. It's been so much fun for me to talk to our guests about the interesting ways that we can take ourselves less seriously. And I've been enjoying it so much that I'm going to have another conversation with TED Talks Daily host Elise Hu about my new book Humor Me and it's going to be a virtual event on February 18th. If you want to hear that conversation, you can become a TED member to join us live to learn about the history and the science behind inside jokes, how to detect a fake laugh, and so much more. We're going to have a great time. Just visit Ted.com members to join. We're going to have a blast and.
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