Sunday Pick: How to solve your problems through drawing (w/ Liana Finck) | How to Be a Better Human

Summary

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Podcast Summary: How to Solve Your Problems Through Drawing (w/ Liana Finck)

Podcast: TED Talks Daily (Episode from How to Be a Better Human)
Host: Chris Duffy
Guest: Liana Fink (Cartoonist, The New Yorker contributor)
Release Date: August 9, 2026

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores how drawing and cartoons can serve as tools for self-discovery, problem-solving, and expressing emotion. Chris Duffy interviews Liana Fink about her creative process, the role of authenticity in her work, how humor and honesty intersect in art, and why perfection isn’t necessary—or even desirable—in creative expression. The conversation also delves into topics like imposter syndrome, social anxiety, and the complexity of faith, all through Liana’s distinct, approachable lens.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Liana Fink’s Creative Journey

• Early Approach to Cartoons:
  Liana shares that, when she began at The New Yorker, her work avoided personal topics, aiming for broad relatability—but a breakup inspired her to turn inward and diagram her pain, leading to more authentic, resonant work.
  • Quote: "Drawing from my own life was a revelation to me, not only because it helped me understand myself better, but because it made me see for the first time that people could relate to me." (Liana Fink, 02:33)
• Self-Discovery Through Drawing:
  Drawing helped Liana process complex feelings—such as social anxiety and gender issues—by turning them into tangible diagrams or cartoons, allowing for new perspectives.

2. The Interplay of Humor, Honesty, and Art

• Authenticity and Universality:
  Liana’s confessional, honest humor makes her work widely relatable; the more specific and true she is, the more people connect.
  • Quote: "The more specific and the more true to yourself you go, the more universally your jokes will connect." (Chris Duffy, 01:27)
• Simplicity Over Perfection:
  She advocates expressive, symbolic drawing over photorealism, focusing on capturing emotions rather than technical accuracy.
  • Quote: "I'm against that ideologically, but I think also I can't do it. So it's lucky that I don't want to." (Liana Fink, 10:13)
• Balancing Humor and Vulnerability:
  Many of Liana’s most popular cartoons stem from openly expressing doubt, anxiety, or confusion, rather than projecting confidence—subverting the expectation to always present a polished self.

3. Practical Creative Processes

• Idea Capture:
  Liana emails herself whenever inspiration strikes, sometimes to a separate "ideas-only" email address, to avoid distractions.
  • Quote: "I'm experimenting with having a separate email address just for ideas so that I don't, like, have to see annoying emails I have to write back to." (Liana Fink, 20:41)
• Cycles of Creativity:
  Both guest and host discuss going through “seasons” of creative abundance and drought, normalizing the ebb and flow of inspiration and productivity.
• Making vs. Waiting for Inspiration:
  Liana is an advocate for “making inspiration come” (i.e., working even when ideas don’t flow easily), especially with her regular deadlines for The New Yorker, though she struggles with guilt when submitting work she doesn’t deem “good enough.”
  • Quote: "I don't think I would make anything unless I knew I had an audience. So I end up like roping nice people into looking at my stuff when it's not good." (Liana Fink, 23:38)
• Tips for Aspiring Cartoonists:
  • Solve personal problems by drawing or summarizing them simply.
  • Sometimes, ideas come through observing and doodling without a plan—seek environments conducive to daydreaming.

4. On Style, Tools, and Approachability

• Essential Drawing Style:
  Liana draws many of her cartoons small and magnifies them for presentation, often using a simple Muji gel pen, but stresses that materials matter less than using what feels natural.
• Visual Thinking:
  She distinguishes between “photorealistic thinkers” (who mentally see images in photographic detail) and “symbolic thinkers” (who represent ideas with simple visuals), positioning herself firmly in the latter group—a perspective she encourages listeners to try.

5. Navigating Self-Doubt and Imposter Syndrome

• Comfort with Vulnerability:
  Liana openly embraces feeling small or unconfident—even taking pride in being an “imposter.”
  • Quote: "I don't have too much, like, imposter syndrome, because I take pride in being an imposter." (Liana Fink, 35:22)
  • She notes that she prefers to show her worst side ("it's more connecty"), even though this approach doesn’t always serve her in social situations like dating or conferences.

6. Repetition, Growth, and Artistic Evolution

• Fear of Repeating Oneself:
  Liana expresses concern about repeating themes in her work, but acknowledges that core struggles (like social anxiety or feelings of inadequacy) are persistent and revisited for most people.
  • Quote: "I think I have about 10 feelings ever... that kind of essential feeling comic gets really repetitive if you're making a new comic every week." (Liana Fink, 26:24)
• Changing Relationship to Rage and Sadness:
  She observes that her rage has lessened as she’s processed personal issues, but she's experienced an increase in sadness as she grows more aware of life's intractable injustices.
  • Quote: "For me, rage has decreased with age. Maybe it'll be back. There's lots and lots to be enraged about." (Liana Fink, 32:39)

7. Art, Faith, and Meaning

• Faith as a Subject:
  Liana’s latest book, Let There Be Light, features a female God with self-doubt—a reflection of her upbringing in a Jewish tradition where belief in God is unstated, but rituals persist.
  • Quote: "It was important to me to not believe in a female God rather than a male God." (Liana Fink, 38:42)
• Belief and Creativity:
  She reflects that, at times, belief in art or eternity can deepen her work, but currently, she isn’t in such a phase.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On drawing and problem solving:
  "I knew that drawing was my strongest problem-solving tool, so I decided to diagram what I was going through." (Liana Fink, 02:33)
• On simplicity and authenticity:
  "If there's something that makes you feel like you're speaking in your normal voice in a way that people can understand you, but with drawing, then that's a good tool for you." (Liana Fink, 17:42)
• On the seasons of ideas:
  "Do you have seasons when you have a lot of ideas and then seasons when maybe you're too busy and you don't?" (Liana Fink, 21:20)
• On honesty and comedy:
  "Comedy is a one, two punch and honesty is a one punch... when you just make a single simple drawing, it's just honesty. It's not funny because it's all there." (Liana Fink, 28:39)
• On feeling small in impressive spaces:
  "There's not much of a precedent…for like, maintaining a career on speaking a lot. Like, saying a lot of things in kind of a small, normal voice." (Liana Fink, 34:53)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:05]–[02:33]: Introduction to Liana Fink’s style—authenticity, humor, and finding one’s own voice.
• [02:33]–[03:45]: Liana’s TED Talk story—using drawing to solve personal problems and connect with others.
• [06:25]–[10:13]: Liana’s career choices, how she approaches drawing and why she rejects photorealism.
• [13:39]–[17:42]: Advice for new cartoonists, discussion on tools and approachable art.
• [19:46]–[23:38]: Handling creative droughts and the discipline of regular creation.
• [24:40]–[27:07]: Wrestling with the idea of repeating oneself and authenticity in art.
• [32:14]–[33:35]: Processing rage and sadness over time; age and emotional shifts.
• [34:42]–[36:47]: Dealing with imposter syndrome, bragging, and social discomfort.
• [37:39]–[39:42]: Faith, culture, and meaning in Liana’s work and life.

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Conclusion

This episode is a candid, at times funny, and always self-aware exploration of how drawing and creative expression can help us navigate life’s uncertainties, examine personal challenges, and connect authentically with others. Liana Fink’s process and philosophy demystify cartooning by emphasizing honesty, emotional resonance, and the value of personal voice over technical mastery. The conversation reminds creators—and all listeners—that art can be a means of problem-solving, a form of connection, and, sometimes, just an honest reflection of not having the answers.

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Transcript

[Liana Fink]

Foreign.

[Podcast Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Y'. All, Elise Hu here and today we're bringing you a Sunday pick where we share an episode of another podcast from ted, Handpicked by Us for you. Liana Fink's cartoons explore life's big predicaments, what to make for dinner, how to leave a party without being rude, how to feel like more than a snack machine once you have a child. In this 2023 episode from how to Be a Better Human, Liana speaks with host Chris Duffy about how drawing has become a practice for her to answer questions and solve problems, and why creating art helps us understand ourselves better. She also discusses why she's not bothered by Imposter Syndrome and how she navigates the feelings of doubt we all experience with honesty and humor. How to Be a Better Human looks in unexpected places for new ways to improve and show up for one another. If you want to hear more insights like this, listen to how to Be a Better Human wherever you get your podcasts. Learn all about Ted's podcasts at podcasts.ted.com.

[Chris Duffy]

You're listening to how to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. When I think about the artists, comedians, writers, when I think about the people that I admire the most, they run the gamut when it comes to the topics that they cover and their styles and the formats that they work in. But the thing that ties everyone who I admire together, the thing that they all share, is that they've found a way to be distinctive, distinctly and uniquely themselves. That is the trait that I admire the most. And that is why I am so excited about today's episode of our podcast, because our guest, the cartoonist Liana Fink, makes work that could only be made by her. You can see her cartoons in places like the New Yorker, but her style is so distinct from what a classic New Yorker cartoon is. You would never mistake her work for something by anyone else. Because Liana's drawings, they're more much simpler, but they're also more impressionistic and they convey so much emotion and they're also very, very, very, very funny. Liana is hilarious, and her humor comes from this deeply honest confessional place. It's some of the best proof I've ever seen that the more specific and the more true to yourself you go, the more universally your jokes will connect. Whether it is Liana overthinking what to say at a party or analyzing the pressures of adulthood or motherhood, she is always so funny and she is always 100% herself. If you can't already tell, I am a huge fan and I'm so excited to talk to her. Here's a clip from Liana's TED Talk

[Liana Fink]

When I first started making cartoons for the New Yorker about a decade ago, I kept my ideas light and quirky. I didn't draw anything too personal. I figured I was too specific, too hard to relate to and read, possibly too female. It took a breakup to get me to start drawing more autobiographically. The pain I was feeling, although objectively pretty run of the mill, was impossible to ignore. I knew that drawing was my strongest problem solving tool, so I decided to diagram what I was going through. By making these drawings. I could see how my ex and I had hurt each other and move on. Drawing from my own life was a revelation to me, not only because it helped me understand myself better, but because it made me see for the first time that people could relate to me. Now that I had this amazing tool, there were so many problems I wanted to solve with it.

[Chris Duffy]

We're gonna be right back with much more from Liana after these quick ads. Don't go anywhere.

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[Chris Duffy]

Today we're talking about humor, creativity, and cartoons with Leanna Fink.

[Liana Fink]

Hi, I'm Leanna Fink. I'm a cartoonist, which in my case means that I make New Yorker cartoons and graphic novels and a lot of random freelance stuff.

[Chris Duffy]

One of the things that is kind of the driving idea behind the interview, which is also a big part of your TED Talk, is how drawing and how art more generally can help you to figure out who you actually are and be more yourself. So could you talk to us a little bit about that journey of how your cartoons let you be more yourself or figure out who that self really is?

[Liana Fink]

I think for me, drawing coincided with wanting to figure out who I was. I'm not sure that they need to go together for everyone. I think some people draw and some people are on a desperate quest to figure out why they are the way they are, and some people are both and some people are neither. And there's room to be creative in each of those quadrants.

[Chris Duffy]

Where do you put yourself in those quadrants between just drawing and desperately trying to figure out who you are?

[Liana Fink]

I'm both of those things for now. Lately I feel like I've done enough figuring out and I don't really need to do that more. So I'm trying to figure out. I really hope drawing is a through line in my life, so I'm trying to figure out new reasons to draw.

[Chris Duffy]

One of the challenges of being in the public eye, especially the way you are, I imagine, is that you get known for one particular thing and people feel really connected to you. But then when you change, it's hard to figure out if you're allowed to be a different person than your audience expects if they got to know you a long time ago.

[Liana Fink]

Yeah, I feel that. And it's hard to talk about because everyone has a different journey with their art career. So yeah, mine is that I was known in this very flimsy way as I'm not sure this was the main thing. But it felt like the main thing that I was an Instagram personality and I posted a lot of drawings every day on Instagram and they were somewhat autobiographical. And I feel like that is ending for me to some extent. I don't. I don't know if I chose for it to end without admitting it or if it ended and I was forced for it to end. But I feel like I'm being forced to choose something new. Like I can't go on the way I was going on even if I wanted to. I'm hoping there is something new that I'm allowed to choose. I'm not sure yet.

[Chris Duffy]

Does it feel like it was a choice in the first place? Like, did you choose cartoons and drawing as your medium?

[Liana Fink]

I chose drawing. I drew as a little kid and I was always kind of praised for it. And I think as a sad teenager I wanted to be a writer. But like, I used the tiny shred of canniness that I had to realize that I had a better chance at getting into art school than getting into school to write because I had nothing to show for writing. So I chose. I chose drawing even though it was something that I had done as a younger and not sad kid. And I think I'm glad I did. Although graphic novels are kind of cumbersome.

[Chris Duffy]

Yeah. It's also interesting because the drawings in your cartoons. I think sometimes people get really hung up on the idea that everything has to be like photo realistic and you have to draw like a hand that perfectly resembles the photo of a hand and it's clearly not what you're going for when you draw your cartoons.

[Liana Fink]

Yeah, I'm against that ideologically, but I think also I can't do it. So it's lucky that I don't want to.

[Chris Duffy]

That's my favorite kind of ideological stance, is I both technically can't do this and I am ideologically opposed to it.

[Liana Fink]

It's a little self serving, but also, who has the time to draw like that? Why? Why would you draw like that?

[Chris Duffy]

Like, because I think for a lot of people like me included, I think if you draw something that doesn't. Look, I'm just going to put this in quotes. Right. Perfect. It feels like, well, I'm not a good artist.

[Liana Fink]

Yeah, I really disagree. So I don't remember actually if I read the New Temple Granted book about different ways of thinking. But I do know maybe from reading about the book or maybe from reading it without realizing I was reading it, that she puts visual thinking in two categories. One category is like people who think in very involved, photorealistic pictures. And she puts herself in that category. And then she has another visual category of people who think in symbols and kind of boil that. Like, they're like idea people, but they put visuals to each idea and, like, the simpler and more direct, the better. And I resonate that. That category resonated with me. I don't know if the categories are real, but I like that. And I think that's what I use drawing for. And that's a really good thing to use drawing for, if that's your bent.

[Chris Duffy]

It also makes your work feel approachable, I think, because there's this sense of, like, people can relate to not just the ideas that you're conveying, but the way that you're conveying. It also feels approachable. I don't know if that's something you consciously think about or not.

[Liana Fink]

I think consciously about drawing the thing you want to get across and not cluttering up your drawing with things that you're not caring much about. So, like, I care a lot about emotion. So if I'm using body language or facial expression or some kind of symbol to convey the emotion or the point that I'm trying to get across, that's all I need for my drawing. I think, though, there's a lot to be said for using drawing to explore a little bit. And I think you need a slightly different mindset for that. You need to be able to just kind of chill and not know where you're going with something. Which has never been good for me, but because I freak out and I overwork things. But I've been reading Goodnight Moon several times a day for the past year, and there's just more and more details that you see in that book every time you read, every time you look at it. And that's like, a very novelistic way to draw, just where, like, there's all these details and the reader can learn more and invent more every time they see them. So I think neither of these is a photorealistic thing. I just think of photorealistic drawing as, like, really different. It's more like some kind of engineering or something where you're, like, crafting something and it's not. It's very far into me. I admire it, but it's not to me, you don't need that to get ideas across.

[Chris Duffy]

So if someone is listening and they have this sense, like, it would be fun to try to make cartoons. It would be fun to draw. It'd be fun to express myself in that way. What are three things that they should keep in mind as they get started? What would you tell someone who's just getting started even if they were, like, a kid?

[Liana Fink]

I think there are a lot of different ways to do this, but the ways that I do are, one, when I have something that I want to get across, and two, when I just want to make a cartoon and I don't have anything in mind. So for the first way, when there's something that's just eating you up and you need to solve it, and you want to maybe solve it by drawing, it could be a drawing or it could be words. If there's a problem you're trying to solve in your life, to tell yourself, I'm going to solve this by summing it up and understanding it, and how can I diagram it for myself? And I used to draw them the minute I had those ideas, but lately I put them in words just because it's more convenient for me. So I email myself an idea when there's something I'm trying to figure out, and I'm like, why is this stressing me out? And then I'll think about why, and I'll write it down in a line, and maybe I'll turn it into a drawing later. The other way that I make cartoons is when you want to be a cartoonist, so you have to make cartoons. I like to be somewhere where I don't. Where I feel like I can just sit still and doodle. And in my case, I love to sit in a cafe or on a train or somewhere where people are just allowed to sit and kind of observe the scenery without getting out of people's way all the time. And then I'll just doodle. And, like, maybe after an hour or two of doodling, something will happen and the ideas will start to make sense. And then those ideas that make sense, it takes a lot more like pushing and pulling before it's actually a good cartoon. But I like to do the ideas all in one day and do the pushing and pulling another day.

[Chris Duffy]

I love that I think about the idea first and then try and sum up this thing that is troubling you in your life or that you're struggling with. Try and sum that up in its simplest form by the drawing. Those feel like they're so much more doable than when someone is like, start by drawing three orbs, and then connect the orbs with an oval, and eventually you'll have a horse. How would you describe visual style? Do you have words that you use to describe it?

[Liana Fink]

I have a few different styles, but lately they're all really the same style. It's just a question of whether I magnify it before presenting it or not. My more complicated and illustration y drawings are not magnified, so they're drawn at the same scale that someone would see them. And my New Yorker drawings and, and my graphic novel drawings are usually like that. But my Instagram drawings, they're really essential, really, really simple drawings. I draw them like, let's say, 1 to 2 inches tall. And then I magnify them either by photographing them up close with my phone or by scanning them in and blowing them up. So it looks like they're drawn much more confidently than they are. It looks like they're drawn with like, a big, a thick line, but they're actually drawn with this, like, thin pen. I like a Muji gel pen, but everyone is different. I don't feel like pen recommendations really transfer from person to person.

[Chris Duffy]

Yeah, it also feels like, I feel like it's kind of counter to the whole thing that we've been talking about, which is the idea that, like, if you get the perfect tool, then you'll be the perfect artist as opposed to just what do you like and what is the thing you're trying to express? And that is the closer you can get to that is the closer you get to perfect.

[Liana Fink]

Yeah, I think so. I think if there's something that makes you feel like you're speaking in your normal voice in a way that people can understand you, but with drawing, then that's a good tool for you.

[Chris Duffy]

Okay, well, we're going to take a quick break for me to speak in my not normal voice. Instead, I'm going to switch over to my add voice and we will be right back with more from Liana after that.

[Liana Fink]

Foreign.

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[Chris Duffy]

And we are back. I want to go back to something you said earlier, which is that if there's something that you want to explore through drawing, you send yourself an email. I'm always really interested in how people, especially people who are doing work that is comedy or funny, which many of your cartoons are, although some of your work is really serious too. But as a comedian myself too, one of the things that I tell people when they ask, like, oh, want to do this? How do you do it? Is that the biggest thing is actually keeping track of the things that make you laugh or that you think are funny because you think that they'll stick with you and they just disappear. I have a notes app on my phone that I just have a running doc that I always start. A new one gets too long because just in the course of a day there'll be 30 things that are the seed of something. And when I look back, most of them are worthless and don't even make sense. But a few of them are. So is that how you keep track of your own ideas or the little seeds you send an email to yourself?

[Liana Fink]

Yeah, I send an email to myself. I'm experimenting with having a separate email address just for ideas so that I don't, like, have to see annoying emails I have to write back to.

[Chris Duffy]

I love that. I'm so tempted to ask what that email address is, but that would be a horrible thing to do because then people start emailing you ideas to that email address.

[Liana Fink]

That's so funny. Yeah, I've actually never told anyone that I even have this email address.

[Chris Duffy]

But I think that the important part is that it's something that is clean and separate, where it's like you go in and it's just ideas. It feels like it is a way of keeping it almost sacred, that sacred space for just the ideas and the possibilities.

[Liana Fink]

Do you have seasons when you have a lot of ideas and then seasons when maybe you're too busy and you don't. And how on earth do you save your ideas for the time when you need ideas?

[Chris Duffy]

Oh, yeah. Well, I actually feel like right now I am in one of those seasons where I have fewer ideas and I'm just trying to execute. And so these days when I'm like, I should find something funny to put up online, I'm like, scrolling back so far and it. It's not a good feeling to me. I'm like, oh, my God, I'm not creative at all. I have to go years back before I find something good that I haven't put out yet. And the reason I didn't put it out then is. Cause it wasn't good enough. But now I think it is.

[Liana Fink]

It's really confusing for me. I wish I had, like, I could find a math person to, like, really diagram it.

[Chris Duffy]

Yeah. What type of season do you think you're in right now?

[Liana Fink]

I. I just took, like, you caught me at the end of, I think, the longest period I've ever taken without doing any work. Because I just. I have a residency in Berlin and I have a little kid and I'm alone here with him. And so I just spent one week being a tourist with my husband and kid, and then one week getting my kid acclimated to his daycare here, which is this whole process in Berlin that usually takes eight weeks, but they fast tracked me. And then one week of, like, a lot of formal meetings at the residency. They're really nice. But also, it's been too, too many reasons to not work, so I can't. And I have all these different streams of work that I'm supposed to be doing. Like, technically, I'm here to be working on a book that isn't serious, but I'm pretending it's serious. It's supposed to be like a funny, a funny, light book. But also, I make cartoons every week, so I really want to have ideas for my cartoons every week. And those aren't coming. I wish they would come. So I'm in a no phase right now. There's nothing happening.

[Chris Duffy]

How do you think of the balance between, like, finding that perfect inspiration and using it for something versus making the inspiration come? Because it's that day of the week where the inspiration has to come.

[Liana Fink]

I'm very much in the camp of making it come, but I have really, really mixed feelings about making people read it. And I think I'm like, I'M pretty weak and I don't think I would make anything unless I knew I had an audience. So I end up like roping nice people into looking at my stuff when it's not good. And I feel so bad about that and it kind of spirals into badness. And I also like feel that I owe the New Yorker a weekly batch of cartoons. And so I feel less guilty about sending in bad cartoons every week because I know they're ask they they like that I send things in every week and if they're bad, at least I made them. But then if they don't buy a cartoon because they were bad, that makes me spiral also because I'm like, I'm worthless. I was supposed to send them good cartoons and they were bad and everyone knows. And yeah, a lot of mixture of guilt and shame.

[Chris Duffy]

And I think it feels like sometimes when you get to the end of the line and you don't have the cool, impressive idea and you just have to be honest about where you are. Those are the most authentic ones. You wrote one a few weeks ago that literally is just called if I'm being honest. And it's like I've been feeling really blank lately. And then you don't even have the word. You're like, I can't quite figure it out. Is it empty? Is it closed? Is it dense? Internal, not verbal. And you talk about how when you feel like that, it's really hard to come up with anything to draw. And so this is. It's kind of a meta thing where you're sending out a drawing that is of how hard it is to. I couldn't relate to this more. This is so funny. But also so clearly you being honest about like sitting in front of the computer and going like, what am I going to put out? How do you get yourself over that hump of like, I'm going to put out a cartoon that's about not knowing what to write in a cartoon.

[Liana Fink]

For me, the hump with that kind of cartoon is not like admitting failure, but it is this fear of repeating myself. I'm pretty. I've been that. The one you described was on my substack newsletter. So it's like a three page comic, let's say, as opposed to a single panel cartoon. And I find I think one can really repeat oneself with single panel cartoons, but it takes a while. I feel like I'm just starting to hit that wall after making cartoons for over 10 years. But with the longer comics, you get to kind of explore a feeling you have And I don't know about you, but I think I have about 10 feelings ever.

[Chris Duffy]

Yeah.

[Liana Fink]

So, like, I think, like, I'm sure I've made that cartoon, that comic several times already because it's a strong feeling. It makes for a good comic. But like, that. Like that kind of. Kind of essential feeling comic gets really repetitive if you're making a new comic every week. And I've been making these for, like, a year, I think, and I'm already really repeating myself. So that's really interesting. And that's an argument for making, like, an even longer comic, because then you can kind of sink into one idea instead of pretending that you have a new idea each week.

[Chris Duffy]

It's interesting because even that sense of repeating yourself is also a really relatable idea. Even someone who's not an artist in any way.

[Liana Fink]

I think in therapy, like, when you. Or with a diary or something, it's really freeing to realize that the problem you have is the same problem you've always had. And then, like, recognizing that can help you just sidestep it. But if the problem is your art, what are you going to do? What does sidestepping it mean?

[Chris Duffy]

But then also, yeah, if you put the pressure on the art of. To always have a revelation. Right. Sometimes it's not necessarily going to be revelatory. It's just going to be a drawing.

[Liana Fink]

Yeah. I do feel a little bit like I could be at the point where I just stopped drawing because I've solved the problems that I wanted to solve through drawing.

[Chris Duffy]

And what was the problem that you were originally trying to solve?

[Liana Fink]

One was social anxiety. Just, like, figuring out the. I don't know, the hundred forms of social anxiety that torment me. And then one other thing had to do with, like, gender stuff that I think I've had, like, a thread of, like, feminist rage in me that has. I'd like to make a longer project exploring this, but I think it has a few aspects. One is. Feeling expected to live for others, and then one is eating issues. Like I had. I was kind of ruled by eating stuff for a decade there, and I think I'm still dealing with it.

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So.

[Liana Fink]

So I talk about it like it's universal. I think it's pretty personal. One was dating. Like, how are you supposed to have a partnership with another person that you love? Like, if the history of such partnerships are really, really unequal, like, if you're in a heterosexual relationship. It wasn't working smoothly for me, and I was trying to figure it out. And I'm not saying I figured any of these things out. But like, I think I outlined the problems for myself to the point where I don't need to keep outlining them. I think like, comedy and honesty probably come from the same source, but like, okay, I think here's a really wonky theory that comedy is a maybe all comedians actually know this and it's boring, but that comedy is a one, two punch and honesty is a one punch. I always think of like a New Yorker cartoon with a picture that's a setup and then the caption that's usually the punchline as a one, two punch. But then when you just make a single simple drawing, it's just honesty. It's not funny because it's all there and there is no saying one thing and then shifting it

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[Liana Fink]

do the things we do.

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[Chris Duffy]

We talked about like how sometimes, sometimes drawings will come to you from like an idea or an emotion that you're trying to express or something that you're processing. You put a cartoon out that has. It's basically a chart or, no, a graph. And on the. I'm really pushing my math understanding to the test. But on the Y axis is rage and on the X axis is age. And you have it going down. Rage is decreasing with age.

[Liana Fink]

So I've been told that I do all my axes backwards, so perhaps it should be age on the Y and rage on the X. But I can't fathom.

[Chris Duffy]

You are certainly asking the wrong person for that one. But it seems right to me. I think time is supposed to go on the X. Yeah, that seems right to me.

[Liana Fink]

Yeah.

[Chris Duffy]

Do you feel like your rage has been decreasing just as a natural product of getting older or also as like, moving and all of those other things?

[Liana Fink]

I know it's really different for everyone, but I think I had some things that I wasn't dealing with that were bad and then I had a crisis and started dealing with them. So I had this like, glowing pinnacle of clarity and rage for a while. And that's where my Instagram drawings came from. And I think I've worked through that thing and it's. I think I'm seeing a bit more broadly, but a bit less like, arrow sharp. So for me, rage has decreased with age. Maybe it'll be back. Like, there's lots and lots to be enraged about.

[Chris Duffy]

Yeah, it makes sense too, right? I think sometimes the more that you know about life and situations, the more rage there is to have.

[Liana Fink]

I think sadness has increased. So it's not like I'm like just very Pollyanna. But yeah, I think I feel more helpless about the things that I'm angry about right now.

[Chris Duffy]

Yeah. Well, we crossed paths at the TED conference and at the in person TED conference, which I don't know about for you, but for me is always like, I've only been twice, but it was extremely. It's extremely, like, intimidating and overwhelming because I checked into my hotel and genuinely, this was the line checking into the hotel. The person in front of me is an astronaut and the person behind me is.

[Liana Fink]

Were they wearing the thing?

[Chris Duffy]

No, he was not wearing his bubble suit. But I. Someone said like, oh, that's an astronaut. They were like pointing it out. And then the person behind me was Esther Perel, the famous therapist. And then I'm in the middle and I love her. It's impossible to be in that situation and not be like, why am I here? And the thing that I guess I'm asking is, like, you sometimes end up in situations where it's like everyone else kind of is. Feels big and Some of the power of your work is, like, admitting that you feel small and not confident.

[Liana Fink]

Yeah, totally.

[Chris Duffy]

And I wonder how you navigate the, like, the disconnect between, like, being in a place where it's like, everyone is impressive and confident, and then you're like, but I. That's kind of not my thing.

[Liana Fink]

There's not much of a precedent for it for be. For, like, maintaining a career on speaking a lot. Like, saying a lot of things in kind of a small, normal voice. I want to outline the problems and the benefits. I think together I'm going to add something to the benefits category, and that is that I don't have too much, like, imposter syndrome, because I take pride in being an imposter.

[Chris Duffy]

Tell me more about that. How do you take pride in that?

[Liana Fink]

Like, when people tell me I draw badly, I'm like, what kind of a bougie are you? Who wants to, like, who cares about drawing? That's so weird. It wouldn't even cross my mind to try to draw better. And I think because of that, I believe that I could draw really, really well if I wanted to, which isn't true. Yeah, I think you could be burdened by too much. By too much skill in something. Although I really wish, like, I don't have an MFA in writing. I have no idea how to structure a longer piece. And I do wish I had a little more knowledge without all of it, but I don't know how to ask for it.

[Chris Duffy]

You have a cartoon that. That's kind of got me thinking about that. That idea of, like, being in spaces where people are really impressive, which is. It's. It's two people talking, and one says to the other, why aren't you bragging? Are you some kind of loser? That's really relatable to me, and I bet you it's relatable to a lot of other people is the idea that if you're not bragging about yourself, that you might as well. It means that there's nothing to brag about, or that the only way to be out in the world is to be loud and impressive and big. How do you balance those? How do you find the spaces where you don't have to feel like you're a loser for not bragging? Or what do you do when you feel like you have to brag?

[Liana Fink]

I'm really bad at bragging. I was really bad at dating. That was part of why I was bad at dating, is that I think on a first date, people just inherit. Or even on their dating profile, people inherently want to show their best side, and I inherently want to show my worst side because I think it's more connecty, but it does not work. And I did feel that at the TED conference, I don't present myself well. And like, yeah, my husband's a good photographer and he is good at being photographed. And I find, like, when I compare myself to him, I find that I'm absolutely the opposite. And I almost hope to look terrible and to photograph things so that they look terrible and it's some kind of defense mechanism. And don't look at me. I look terrible. So don't even judge me. Like, don't even compare me to other people.

[Chris Duffy]

I think there's the defense mechanism part that makes total sense to me. We've talked a lot about your cartoons that have been about, like, social situations or emotions, but you also have done a lot of work that is about faith. And your most recent book, Let There Be Light, centers around a God that's a woman, but also an artist with self doubt. And you talked a lot about that. I love that. And I just. I guess I'd wonder how the idea of believing in something bigger than yourself and struggling with that belief, how does that tie into your work and into things that make you laugh?

[Liana Fink]

Ooh, that's a really good question. I've never believed in God. I'm of the Jewish sector that I don't. I don't even know how to pinpoint it. I think it's, like, a specific part of Eastern Europe that we come from, or at least that, like, some of our Jewish souls come from where it's not an issue. And, like, we don't talk about that. It's, like, in bad taste to, like, even consider God. But we believe in custom and we talk about God, but we don't think about whether we believe in them or not. But it was important to me to not believe in a female God rather than a male God.

[Chris Duffy]

My mom is Jewish, so I have Eastern European Jewish background as well. And my wife got really interested in Judaism, and so she took, like, a Judaism 101 class, which I've never seen my mom and aunt happier in their lives. Two Jewish women being like, she's going to learn about Judaism. And something that the rabbi said in the Zoom class that I just, like, happened to walk by is, he goes, in Judaism, we believe there is at most one God. And I was like, I love that. That's what the rabbi said. He's like, look, there's definitely not two. There might not be one. But there's certainly no.

[Liana Fink]

That's amazing. Yeah, I want to take that class.

[Chris Duffy]

I love the idea of it being important to you to not believe in a female God. That's fantastic. That's a perfect sentence.

[Liana Fink]

I think there have been moments in my life where I believe in art and eternity and things, and I think I'm not in one of those moments. For better or for worse. I think when one is sad, one is more likely to believe in something more mystical. But yeah, it does affect your art when you're believing in something.

[Chris Duffy]

Well, Liana, it's been such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for making the time to be on the show. I really appreciate it.

[Liana Fink]

Thank you so much. This has been an honor and a huge joy.

[Chris Duffy]

That is it for today's episode of how to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Liana Fink. I am your host, Chris Duffy and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and upcoming live shows@chris duffycomedy.com how to be a Better Human is brought to you on the TED side by Daniela Balarezzo, Chloe Chacha Brooks and Joseph De Bruyne, who are all kidding aside, genuinely each creative and unique artists in their own right. This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Mattea Salas who frequently reject my excuses that I am not going for hyper realistic audio facts but instead trying to make impressionistic line drawings for the years. They do not accept that and neither should they. On the PRX side, our show is put together by a team that is almost mystical in their godlike powers to create podcasts. Morgan Flannery, Nor Gill, Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzalez. And of course thanks to you for listening to our show and making this all possible. We could not do it without you. If you are listening on Apple, please leave us a five star rating and review. And if you're listening on the Spotify app, answer the discussion question that we've put up there on mobile. I love to see your answers. We are always so excited to see what you have to say, so please put up your thoughts there. We will be back next week with even more how to Be a Better Human.

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