Sunday Pick: Kara Swisher | Design Matters

Summary

Podcast Summary: TED Talks Daily – Sunday Pick: Kara Swisher | Design Matters

Episode Information

• Title: Sunday Pick: Kara Swisher | Design Matters
• Host/Author: TED
• Release Date: June 22, 2025

Overview In this engaging episode of Design Matters, hosted by Debbie Millman and featuring special guest Roxane Gay, renowned tech journalist Kara Swisher delves into her extensive career, personal experiences, and insightful perspectives on the evolving tech landscape. Swisher shares candid stories about her upbringing, her relationships, particularly with her mother, and her unapologetic approach to journalism in the tech industry. The conversation also touches upon her upcoming memoir, "Burn Book: A Tech Love Story," her views on influential tech figures, the impact of AI, and the dynamics of gender and money in professional settings.

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1. Introduction to Kara Swisher

• Timestamp: [00:00 - 01:01]
• Details: The episode begins with Elise Hu introducing Kara Swisher, highlighting her role as a tech journalist and podcast host who has engaged with prominent figures in the tech industry.

2. Kara Swisher’s Unique Perspective

• Timestamp: [01:01 - 02:18]
• Highlight: Swisher humorously mentions, "I actually still have sperm left," showcasing her candid and unconventional style.

3. Personal Background and Family Dynamics

• Timestamp: [06:35 - 29:54]
• Key Points:
  • Father’s Death: Swisher recounts the impact of her father’s untimely death due to a brain aneurysm when she was five years old, describing how it has influenced her resilience and perspective on mortality.
  • Relationship with Her Mother: She shares a tumultuous relationship with her mother, marked by differing views and conflicts, especially regarding her sexuality. Swisher states, "she hates it sometimes...It's our entire relationship right there."

Notable Quote:

“When your parent dies at a young age, it’s as if half your friends have died.” – Kara Swisher [07:18]

4. Navigating Personal Life and Sexuality

• Timestamp: [20:09 - 27:44]
• Details:
  • Coming Out: Swisher discusses her journey of coming out as gay at 50 years old, detailing the strained relationship with her mother following this revelation.
  • Impact of Parenthood: Having children has introduced a sense of vulnerability and purpose, influencing her boldness and functionality.

Notable Quote:

“I have this many minutes on the planet. I don't know what it is, but you're taking up far too many of them.” – Kara Swisher [09:43]

5. Career Highlights and Tech Journalism

• Timestamp: [36:57 - 43:49]
• Key Points:
  • Early Career: Swisher outlines her beginnings at the Washington Post and her transition to covering the burgeoning internet sector in the early '90s.
  • Recognizing the Internet’s Potential: She explains her early recognition of the internet’s transformative power, stating, “Everything that can be digitized will be digitized.”
  • Influential Interviews: She highlights her extensive interviews with tech giants, noting her unique approach of questioning and challenging these figures.

Notable Quote:

“I didn't do access journalism. Sometimes I did, but I tried to always say what the problem was very clearly.” – Kara Swisher [40:07]

6. Memoir: "Burn Book: A Tech Love Story"

• Timestamp: [75:25 - 77:05]
• Details:
  • Content and Themes: Swisher describes her memoir as a narrative of a “love gone wrong” intertwined with her experiences in the tech world. She emphasizes that while she has criticisms, she also admires several tech leaders.
  • Balance of Critique and Admiration: She mentions, “There are people I like, and then I write a whole chapter about people I like a lot.”

Notable Quote:

“It's a story of heartbreak is what it is. But it's really funny.” – Kara Swisher [76:05]

7. Views on Influential Tech Figures

• Timestamp: [43:49 - 52:53]
• Key Points:
  • Elon Musk: Swisher expresses disappointment in Musk’s recent behavior, lamenting the shift from his innovative contributions to what she perceives as problematic actions.
  • Oprah and Other Leaders: She briefly touches upon other influential figures like Oprah, appreciating their entrepreneurial spirit while critiquing certain behaviors.

Notable Quote:

“What scares me is even... these companies are making decisions that will have grave implications.” – Kara Swisher [50:54]

8. Artificial Intelligence and the Future of Technology

• Timestamp: [52:53 - 54:17]
• Details:
  • AI’s Dual Nature: Swisher highlights both the promising applications of AI in fields like healthcare and education, as well as the dangers posed by its misuse.
  • Concerns Over Power: She voices concerns about the concentration of power in the hands of a few tech moguls and the implications for society.

Notable Quote:

“I'm scared of people using generative AI, which. It's always the humans that fuck things up.” – Kara Swisher [54:05]

9. Gender, Money, and Negotiation

• Timestamp: [61:02 - 70:25]
• Key Points:
  • Self-Worth and Negotiation: Swisher discusses the disparity in how women and men approach negotiations, advocating for women to recognize their worth and negotiate assertively.
  • Personal Experiences: She shares anecdotes about negotiating salaries and severance packages, emphasizing the importance of taking what is owed.

Notable Quote:

“I think women don't [ask for higher pay] because of historical undervaluing.” – Kara Swisher [62:17]

10. Personal Anecdotes and Humor

• Timestamp: [74:35 - 78:15]
• Details:
  • Humorous Insights: Swisher injects humor into the conversation, sharing light-hearted stories about her experiences with sperm donation and her playful banter with Roxane Gay.
  • Future Plans: She mentions her desire to have more children, reflecting her optimistic and forward-thinking mindset.

Notable Quote:

“I have a lot. It's in a cryo. Whatever the. In California, I pay 300 a year and I can't stop paying 300 a year for it.” – Kara Swisher [75:42]

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Conclusion

This episode of Design Matters offers a deep dive into Kara Swisher’s multifaceted life as a tech journalist and a mother. Her no-nonsense attitude towards the tech industry, combined with her personal stories and advocacy for women in professional settings, provides listeners with both inspiration and critical insights. Swisher’s upcoming memoir promises to further explore her complex relationship with the tech world, balancing admiration with critique.

Notable Final Quote:

“If you create something out of nothing, you should benefit.” – Kara Swisher [64:42]

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Additional Information

• Find Episodes of Design Matters: Available on all major podcast platforms.
• Learn More About TED Audio Collective: TED Audio Collective

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

Foreign.

[Elise Hu]

Hey TED Talks Daily listeners. I'm Elise Hu. Today we have another Sunday Pick episode where we share another podcast from the TED Audio Collective handpicked by us for you. Tech journalist, opinion leader and podcast host Kara Swisher has hosted hundreds and hundreds of newsmaking interviews tracking tech and media's changing power, often going head to head with the most prominent figures in the tech industry. In this episode of Design Matters, hosted by Debbie Millman and with a special appearance from writer Roxane Gay, Kara sits down in front of a live audience to talk about her wide ranging career covering the fast evolving world of technology and politics. You can find episodes of Design Matters wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more about the TED audio [e-mail].

[Kara Swisher]

I actually still have sperm left. I got pregnant on the first pregnancy and my ex wife got pregnant so I have a lot of sperm left. It's excellent sperm.

[Debbie Millman]

From the TED Audio Collective. This is Design Matters with Debbie Millman. For 18 years, Debbie Millman has been talking with designers and other creative people about what they do, how they got to be who they are and what they're thinking about and working on. On this episode, Kara Swisher talks about her career in journalism, covering tech moguls and about her sperm I bought it.

[Kara Swisher]

For cheap and now I can sell was very inexpensive way back when cuz no lesbians were having children out here we feel things the sore calves that lead to epic views, the cool waterfall mist during a hot hike, and the breeze that hits just right at the summit. But hey, don't just listen to us.

[Roxane Gay]

Experience it for yourself.

[Kara Swisher]

Alltrails makes it easy to discover the best of the outdoors. With more than 450,000 trails around the world, points of interest along the trail, and offline maps for always on navigation. Download the free app today and find.

[Roxane Gay]

Your next outdoor adventure.

[Unknown]

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[Elise Hu]

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[Debbie Millman]

This interview of Kara Swisher is part of the Design Matters Live tour Presented in Washington D.C. on September 20, 2023 by On Air, Debbie was joined on stage to conduct the interview by Roxane Gay, who introduced Kara Swisher.

[Roxane Gay]

Kara Swisher is truly a woman with her finger on the pulse of all things tech. She has written for countless publications including the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times. But now she hosts the podcast on with Kara Swisher and she co hosts Pivot with Scott Galloway. With Inimitable Style. She covers breaking news, opines on technology companies and the mercurial people who lead them and is always, always ahead of the curve. Tonight she joins Debbie Millman and I on this live episode of Design Matters. Kara, welcome to Design Matters.

[Unknown]

Hello, Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

Hey. They totally all saw us come in.

[Unknown]

On the side, so I know the secret's out.

[Kara Swisher]

We were like, well, that's an anti climax.

[Unknown]

Kara, I think that you might enjoy this first question.

[Kara Swisher]

I might. You might.

[Unknown]

Given the conversation we were having backstage about cars.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Is it true you have a special affinity for the Ford Fiesta?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, I do. I do. I love the. I had a Ford Fiesta Turbo. Let me just say, people Made fun of me. And then I took them in it, which was a very different experience. It was also a manual. I drive manual when I drove gas cars, and I love manuals. My 12th grade boyfriend taught me. That was a long time ago. Taught me how to drive a manual. And I love it. And I love driving it in San Francisco downhills. And I'd pretend I was going backwards with my kids, and they'd be like, mom, stop. But then I did it anyway. And then since I have now a Chevy bolt in my ongoing series of sexy cars, I have a Chevy bolt and a Kia Sorento. So I am one hot lady.

[Unknown]

Good logo on the Kia.

[Kara Swisher]

Nice new logo. I love my Kia. The hot one. It's nice. Kara has three seats. Three sets of seats.

[Roxane Gay]

Oh, I always enjoy a third row for activities.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I have. Just saying I have four kids, so I need it, so. Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

When Your dad was 34 years old, he died from complications of a brain aneurysm.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Unknown]

He was fresh out of the Navy. He had three kids. He and your mom had purchased their first house. He had landed a job as the head of anesthesia at Brooklyn Jewish Hospital. You were five years old.

[Kara Swisher]

Indeed.

[Unknown]

And have said that his sudden death has informed everything you've done since.

[Roxane Gay]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And I'm wondering in what way?

[Kara Swisher]

Well, in every way. I think when your parent dies at a young age, there's a great book, I think it's by Irving Yalom or something called the Lost that is Forever. It's one of. I love this book. A friend of mine lost her daughter who has a young child, and I sent this to them or advised them to get it. And when your parent dies at a young age, it's as if half your friends have died. Right. Because that is your touch point at that age. And at that time when it happens, it's devastating. But you get through it. You do. You just do. And so a lot of things don't matter as much as. Because you realize, one, you get a sense of mortality at a very early age. And two is you can survive a lot of stuff, you know, And a lot of people have gone through worse things, but it certainly was tough. And it was accompanied by the fact that my mom married someone who wasn't very nice. My father was incredibly kind. So I felt like, I mean, I was essentially living Cinderella or something. Like it was like that. And so it makes you think every time I think about death a lot, not in the way I'm gonna die tomorrow, it's that I'm Always like, should I do this? I'll be dead in 50 years. Yes. And so it tends to give me a positive spin on every. I don't have as much, I just don't have that kind of time and neither does anybody else. But I have a very good sense of that. The other thing is when I had my first child, who is now 21, I have right now also a 4 year old, someone about to turn 4, daughter and a son who's about to turn 2. And when my oldest, who's now 21, turned 5, I realized the devastation because we were incredibly. I'm incredibly close to my little. My two year old, like, knows me well, walks home, hi mama and hugs me. And it just informed everything. So I think it made me bolder and highly functional. I would say highly functional. And my brothers are highly functional. So it's not great. But that's not a great way to learn that.

[Roxane Gay]

You've noted that when you survive something that awful, very little is going to bother you over the course of the rest of your life. And it seems like that has held true this many years later. And so why do you think that holds true for so long? And do you ever foresee that changing where things might start to rock your world again?

[Kara Swisher]

Well, only around my kids. I think that's the only time I get like panicked about something happening to them and traveling. I'm very. That's the only thing I think. I think I had kids because I didn't want to become one of those people that nothing bothers. Right. You know? And I think probably a lot of my earlier relationships I was like, yeah, we break up. Oh, well, so what? Like, you know what I mean? You get like that. Yeah, it'll be fine. Everything will be fine. I'll be fine. And I think having kids does give you a sense of vulnerability that you can't avoid. Not everybody has kids. I get it. There's different ways to do that. But for me that's really. That's the one thing that gives me a sense of terror sometimes or scaredness. I'm not scared for myself, I'm scared for them. Especially because I knew it does give me insight into what happened to me too at the same time. So I guess that would be. It doesn't leave me though. Every time, you know me, I leave things. Like when I don't, like if I don't get enough money or if someone just bothers me. We were talking about someone we know jointly and when I left this particular thing, they said, why are you leaving. And I said, I don't want to talk to you anymore. And they sort of were like, what? And I go, I just don't want to see you anymore also, or encounter you, or I just. I gotta go. And so it was. And it was because of that feeling of like, life's too short. It's not. It's more than life's too short. It's like, I have this many minutes on the planet. I don't know what it is, but you're taking up far too many of them. And you need to move along out of my sight.

[Roxane Gay]

I have to say yes, please clap. When I hear something like that, it feels a bit mythic because I am not even though on the page, yes, I'm absolutely that bitch. But in my day to day life, I don't have that thing that allows me to just say, I don't want to ever speak to you again. How do you develop that? Or did it just.

[Kara Swisher]

Just start doing it. And it's like. Because I do a lot of. Yeah, no, no, I don't think so. I was gonna do a series of books and I still might. We just thought of a podcast to do together.

[Roxane Gay]

We'll talk about that.

[Kara Swisher]

It's gonn. It's so unlike what you think it would be. It's not badass, ladies. It's something much worse. But I was gonna do. I am gonna do a book, and it's called no is a complete sentence. And the second book in the series is called yes, I'll take that. Because I don't think women. It's a book for women and other people who need it, essentially. And the third is maybe I'll call you back. Yes. I don't know. I never regret saying things. I don't. People are like, did you regret that? I'm like, no. No. I like that. That was fun.

[Roxane Gay]

Wow.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, someone's gonna shoot me someday. One time I was in, because I'm kind of mean to some of the tech bros and they have a lot of money. I was in New York and I was crossing the street and a car made a 180 in front. Big black car, like one of those big Ubers. The same, whatever. And stopped in front of me. And I literally thought, the time has come for Peter Thiel to kill me. Or Elon Musk slash mark this that they have sent in the Israeli secret people that are going to now take me. I'll be cut up into little pieces and spread around the ocean and stuff. And I thought that. I thought oh, God. One too many insults of these children. Adult toddlers. And I just did it again. And it was a fan. It was a fireman from Queens. And he's like, dude, he wanted. And he goes, did I scare you? And I'm like, yes. Now you have to abduct me and cut me into tiny bits.

[Roxane Gay]

Now, this is taking a step back, but I know that your mother is very stylish, and so was your Italian grandmother.

[Kara Swisher]

She was.

[Roxane Gay]

And at one point, your mom worked at the great old department store Bonwit Teller.

[Kara Swisher]

She did. I was there a lot.

[Roxane Gay]

Amazing. And later had her own store and would coordinate fashion shows. You've said that you are her greatest disappointment in that regard. And I can relate because my mother is also very fashionable, and every time she looks at my wardrobe, she's just like, no. So has your mother truly never appreciated your style?

[Kara Swisher]

No, never. She hates it sometimes. She's like, that was okay. But no, she's a fashion person and really quite fashionable. And I have no interest. And interesting enough we were talking about on the podcast today because of the John Fetterman controversy. Like, who the hell cares if he wears shorts? Honestly, My favorite tweet about this, or it might have been a tweet, was Joe Manchin, thanks for wearing a suit. Well, you voted against the child.

[Roxane Gay]

I saw that. And I agree.

[Kara Swisher]

I agree. Like, nice.

[Roxane Gay]

All of these old men who frankly don't know how to tailor a suit are talking about a dress code. Leave them alone.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I agree. I think it's a bad thing. I think John Fetterman's handled it really well. I mean, I get their point, vaguely, but in general, no. My mom really hates my clothes. And since the pandemic, it's gotten worse because I'm wearing hard pants right now, but I'm usually in soft pants. I hate hard pants, but I'm wearing them for you. But soft pants are my thing.

[Roxane Gay]

I think both Debbie and I are honored that you brought out the hard pants.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't like hard pants. Absolutely. I hate hard pants. They're terrible.

[Unknown]

You know, it's really funny because I was thinking I was going to put on, like, heels and the whole thing, and I was like, I think Kara prefers the more casual.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, you look good, though. But it's fashionable.

[Unknown]

My mom would appreciate, you know, the shoes.

[Kara Swisher]

She liked those. I think those are expensive, I believe. Correct?

[Unknown]

Not really, but I actually wore these for you. Oh, thank you. So women dress for each other. Okay. That's what we do. Right?

[Kara Swisher]

But I just want to Tell you, I didn't notice, so I didn't. I didn't.

[Roxane Gay]

I did.

[Kara Swisher]

I didn't. I wear the same things. I literally wear the. Like, I have had. I went back and saw some friends of mine that I've known for 50 years. Really? And they're like, you're still dressing the same. I'm like, it's the same shoe. Like, it's like. I have clothes that I've had for 40, 50 years, and I love them.

[Unknown]

We found out that you still have a lot of the clothes you wore in eighth grade.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I have a lot of them that I wore in eighth grade.

[Unknown]

Do you still wear them?

[Kara Swisher]

Well now? Yes, I do. Of course I do. And then, of course, now I wear my oldest son's T shirts from when they were in eighth grade. So I just had one. It was too long. Cause he's tall. He was taller than me at that time, so I just had him hemmed a little bit. And there was a big stain I couldn't. Of unknown origin. So I had it just cut. And now I'm gonna wear it. Yeah, it's real old. My mom will hate it. My mom will hate it. It is yellow that she likes the color. One time we just. It's an ongoing war, a fashion war with her. But one time she bought me some. She buys me clothes all the time. To this day. I'm like, there's gotta be an end to this.

[Unknown]

What kind of things does she buy you?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, like expensive clothes. Like, you know, whatever happens to just very expensive fashion forward clothes. And I'm literally like, have you met me? Never. But one time she bought me something that was. And I don't like the color yellow. I don't like wearing it. I mean, it's fine. It's a color, but I don't want to wear it. And she goes, I bought you this. And I go, mom, I hate the color yellow. And she goes, no, you don't. Like, that's our relationship in. That's our entire relationship right there.

[Unknown]

Tell Kara in the audience.

[Kara Swisher]

She's gonna listen to this. And she's like, stop talking about me. I said, at least I didn't talk about your ridiculous obsession with Fox News. Ooh.

[Unknown]

Well, let's. I think you should share with Karen in the audience the conversation you had with your mom last night.

[Roxane Gay]

Oh, for Christ's sake.

[Unknown]

Well, Susan brought up the book, so.

[Roxane Gay]

You did as well. So my mom is. I love her. We talk every day. She's very special. She's Haitian and she's 74. And she just does not give a fuck about anything. She will say whatever she wants to say. And this is not like an elderly thing. This is just who she is. She's always been this person. And I was like, yeah, I was telling her about some good news about one of a movie I wrote that's actually gonna get made. And she was like, oh, good, then maybe now people will learn your name again. Because it has been five years since I published a book. And I was just like, thank you for having the appropriate reaction. I was just like. I was so stunned.

[Unknown]

And I was like, can I not.

[Roxane Gay]

Read the Times I publish all the time?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, no. And you're still doing it with your mother. You're like, I. I know.

[Roxane Gay]

And then I'm like, defending myself. And the thing is, she comes up with us to my events all the time, and so it's so funny. And then my dad will be like, you know what, San? I saw a bad feminist in the store, and I would like to see something else next to it. And I'm like, well, we have the same last name, so perhaps you should write something.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I appreciate it. I mean, you know, we've had our struggles, but. She escaped from an assisted living facility. I put her in a very nice. The nicest one in America. But she left. She just left. She somehow got my neighbor in San Francisco to help her. And then she was on the Queen Mary with her going to England. And I was like, where are you? She goes, the Queen Mary? I'm like, what? What happened? So I'm just saying she does, but she's always been, you know. It was nice to have her, actually, when I was doing big events, because she would also insult billionaires, like, without the drop of a hat.

[Roxane Gay]

That's a handy skill.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. One time we used to give out swag to people that came to the conference. And Bill Gates was in line, and it was, I think a guitar hero at the time or whatever, A free guitar hero. And my mom helped give stuff out. I used to make her work for showing up. Cause she got to stay in the nice hotel rooms. And she looked at him and she goes, can't you afford this on your own? And then one time, the guy of intel with Andy Grove, he goes, I am Andy Grove. I created Intel. She goes, never heard of you. Then she went on to, like, eat a, like, you know, pig in a.

[Unknown]

Blanket podcast idea you had. I actually think it would be better for your mothers to do together.

[Kara Swisher]

That's true.

[Roxane Gay]

Yes. I'M sure they would have quite the time.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, exactly. We'll bring them.

[Unknown]

Speaking of mothers, Kara, I understand that you knew you were gay when you were four years old.

[Kara Swisher]

Four years old.

[Unknown]

Bravo, by the way.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, thank you.

[Unknown]

But didn't come out cheerful.

[Kara Swisher]

But you were a little later, right?

[Unknown]

50.

[Kara Swisher]

50. Wow. Come on.

[Unknown]

Very different upbringing. Come on.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't believe you. Oh. I swear. Wasn't there, like a field hockey coach? You were like.

[Roxane Gay]

Oh, Well, I mean, I think she'll admit she came out at 50, but I dabbled.

[Unknown]

Pre 50. I call it dabbling. I dabbled. But, yeah. And, I mean, you and I are the same age, so I think, you know how it was sometimes scary to. Mm, no, no. For me, it. And I grew up in a somewhat homophobic environment.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, me too.

[Unknown]

Yes, I know. When you told your mother, she told you. Well, you said that you told her in a spectacular way over the phone.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, I know.

[Unknown]

I want to know what that spectacular way was. But at that point, she told you she would never speak to you again and then wouldn't stop speaking to you for the rest of your life.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, exactly. I knew it was an empty threat. She's full of empty threats. So that's why I'm like, yeah, whatever. Sure.

[Unknown]

So what spectacular way did you tell her?

[Kara Swisher]

You know, I always said she was every now and then. And I think I'm gonna forgive her. But one of the. Because, you know, people grow up, you know, you have to at some point say, okay, this is how they grew up. Although my grandmother was fantastic. She's like, yeah, I knew. And then she was like, yeah, whatever. And then I was going out with someone, and she's like, she's too pretty for you. My grandmother said that. And I was like, you know, she is. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair.

[Unknown]

But what about the boy in 12th grade?

[Kara Swisher]

He was a nice guy. Yeah, he's a good guy, actually. And my. I, you know, I. You know, I had a lot of boyfriends, actually. But, you know, she was. What happened was she'd say little things like, if you were gay, I won't speak to you. That was the. Like, you know, that kind. I was like, mm, okay. Got it. And I always promised if she said it to me direct, asked me directly, I would answer directly. And I was going to dinner with someone I think it was 22 years old or something with I was seeing at the time, and we were just going out to dinner for my birthday, and she's like, what are you doing for Your birthday. I said, I'm going out with this woman. And she goes alone. And I go, yeah, that's right. I said, this is this phone call. You can hear that. And she goes, it's almost like you're going out. That's what she said. Like, you're going out with her. And I go, mom, you have won the Chrysler Cordoba. You finally had the guts to ask the question you've always wanted to ask, and you've been spinning around. You win. Fantastic. And then she said the most horrible things to me. It was terrible. And said she wouldn't speak to me and this and that. And I had had to go up to New York for a family thing that weekend, which was really uncomfortable. And what happened is, it's an Italian family, so there's a lot of strategy going on with this group of people. And so I immediately called my brothers, my grandmother. I got everyone in line on my side, and she was too late. I was too fast with the phone. And so I went up and I had to see her. And she tried everything, like, you don't like men. I'm like, I love my brothers. I've had boyfriends. I like men. You know, why would I. You know, there's an old joke. You know, lesbians don't hate men. They don't have to sleep with them. And I said that joke. She didn't like that. It didn't go over well. And then I. I tried a bunch of things like, hey, man, I've got these. I don't know. We just want to. The people will never speak to you. I was like, everyone's talking to me. They're kind of irritated by you. Like, I was like, I was. You know, when you're in that kind of relationship, you know, where you have to have your ammo, essentially. And over time, she got better because she was actually getting a divorce from my stepfather, and she needed me. And so very soon after, she needed my help. And so I think that was better. But it's been a struggle until I had kids. And even after I had kids, we were. You know, she was difficult, I would say. And she would buy worse presents for my girlfriends, which drove me crazy. And I would make her take them back and get a better present. And, you know, whenever she did something nice, she goes, see, I've been nice. I'm like, we don't negotiate with terrorists. You have to behave. You know, the whole thing. Like, I would do that. I was really tough on her. And even, you know, when I had. I had one of my kids and, you know, obviously adopted the other. My ex had the other one before the kid was born. She was like, I'm not a grandmother, that kind of thing, like, stuff like that. But she loves all the kids. Like she. It just didn't stick right once you start to get the familiarity. And then the only time we really had a very bad situation, two times, was when the New York Post wrote about my pregnancy and I hadn't told her. And I had to tell her because she's a very big reader of the New York Post. And it was on page six in the J. Lo's marrying someone else position. And it said it had things about sperm donors and this and that. And then the Post called me and said, you know, we've heard the father is Jeff Bezos. I was like, I can't accept anything more than $25 from anyone I cover. So, no, that's not the case. You know, something like that. And so I had to tell her. And she wasn't particularly nice. She thought. She goes, you know, she blamed me for the item because all her friends would find out, essentially. And then one other time, we were Rick Santorum, remember him? He's now just on cnn or maybe not anymore. Collective terrible.

[Roxane Gay]

I remember the alternative definition of Santorum very fondly. So. Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

Which I don't know that, but you can tell me.

[Roxane Gay]

It's really unpleasant and it involves semen.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, well, yeah, there you go. So she lived in Pennsylvania. She had a Pennsylvania voting. She voted in Pennsylvania and was born there. And he was doing very anti gay stuff. Very like, including around adoption. I had one kid I adopted and Megan adopted the kid I had. And at the time, it was so much worse. We had so many legal papers, it was ridiculous and still not guaranteed parental rights. And so I said, you really can't vote for him. You cannot. She was a Republican voter. And I said, he is against our family. You don't have to vote. You can write in my grandmother's name, I don't care, but you cannot vote for him. This is a very, very hard thing because he's trying to pass this legislation. So we were at Thanksgiving dinner in San Francisco, actually, and we were talking about the election that just happened, and for some reason we were talking about voting. And she goes, well, I voted for Rick Santorum. And I said, excuse me. I said, you could not do that. You had to stick with our family and not this ridiculous tribalism that you have. And she's like, well, I can vote for whoever I want. That's what she said, which was incredible. And I said, and I can give pumpkin pie to whoever I want. Get out of my house. And so I did. I made her leave and I wouldn't let her see the kids for several months until she apologized to them. But that was. Since then, she's been great. She's been a great grandparent and you know, she's got her quirks like everybody else, but she's been really wonderful to. I've had two more kids since then. She's been a wonderful grandparent too.

[Roxane Gay]

And speaking of grandparents, your grandmother was one of your favorite people, my favorite person. And you said that she was encouraging of your confidence. You've said it delighted her. When you were yourself, how did that help you to stay confident, especially as a woman, as a gay woman growing up in a world where women are often told, as you well know, to make ourselves smaller.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, she was a housewife. She didn't really do, you know, she stayed in the same town, Old Forge, Pennsylvania her whole life. She didn't go very far. You know, she didn't like going very far. She was always watching the Weather Channel. She's like, in Vegas, it's bad. I'm like, you're never going there. What do you care? Just giving you the update, Kara. I was like, thank you, thank you, grandma. You know, and she watched football and she's Italian and I just. She was always loving. She always, constantly loving. Not educated, I would say, you know, we were very educated. And I think she didn't get. She may have graduated high school. I don't think she got past ninth grade. You know, just a simple person and a person of their time too. She kept calling my sister in law the Irish, like, where's David with the Irish? I was like, all of them, all of them, like, stuff like that. But she laughed. Ah, what are you calling me that for? She'd sneak cigarettes. But she was very. She was always there for me in a way that was absolutely loving. And I think I just always felt that she had my back in a lot of ways throughout and having your dad die and stuff like that. To have a love, a very loving, no holds barred, unconditional loving person is critically important, I think. And she's just. She was funny. She was a funny. She was funny when she got. She was so sweet her whole life. And then when she got older, she got kind of mean. Like something happened and she didn't care. Not mean, but like in a good way. And so she would only eat chicken wings, black coffee, and donuts toward the end of her life. And I always go, grandma, you gotta eat something healthy. She goes, am I gonna live 10 more years? I'm like, no. And she goes, I'm gonna eat my donuts. And I'm like, okay, fair. And when she died, we put. You know, they have an open casket. Italians love to do an open casket, which I don't love, but we put a chicken wing under her knee, wrapped. Her cousin did it so she couldn't reach it. So it's there now if you want to go get something to eat. She's above ground, so it probably is a little desiccated. Oh, yeah, I know. I know, right? It was fantastic. I was like, so good. We have good funerals. We put the fun in funerals, our family.

[Unknown]

Kara, I have one more question for you about your.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, this is hard. What is this? Therapy.

[Unknown]

In addition to running the playground, I understand you were the sort of. You've done a lot of researcher of the playground. Yes, I was once. In elementary school, you were assigned some reading in class, and then you stood up and declared, I've already read this and I'm bored, so I'm leaving.

[Kara Swisher]

That is correct.

[Unknown]

Which you did.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, I did.

[Unknown]

You've always been this version of Karen Swisher.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, exactly.

[Unknown]

This is who you are.

[Kara Swisher]

But I had already read it. I was bored and I left. I think that's fair.

[Unknown]

Where'd you go?

[Kara Swisher]

I just went and found another book and stuff. I just. I don't know. Mrs. Jonathan was like, she didn't at this point, she's like, nah, it's Kara. She's right. She read it, she's bored. Get her another book. And so I read early. You know, I was considered very, very smart at a young age. One of those kids. And then everyone caught up to me. I didn't stay that way, unfortunately, but I was good at math, I was good at reading and stuff like that. And so I just was like that. I just. My nickname among my family members, my Italian family members, was Tempesta, which I thought was good, but insulting, too. Like, that's what they would, you know, call at least a girl who knew what they wanted.

[Unknown]

So have you felt you've always been what you wanted?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. I know I should be like, no, no, no. I regret this.

[Unknown]

Well, I know that you did want to work in the CIA, and in fact, you declared that you would have been as good as Claire Danes in Homeland.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Unknown]

But with 100% less mental illness.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. Now, as charming as that was. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Was. Was being gay the only thing that stopped you from applying?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. Yeah, it was applying. Interesting. Because I ran. I went to a wedding this weekend of people have gone to school with. Since sixth grade. And one of the teachers was there, and they said, oh, you used to tell me you were gonna be really famous someday. Like you didn't know what. You know, what it was. But I wanted. I really did want to serve. My dad was in the Navy. I did want to go into the military. I have a patriotic streak. A lot of my family on that side is in the military. And I thought it was important. I just. I don't know why. I just did. And maybe because of my dad or something. And I couldn't go into that because of don't ask, don't tell at the time. Thank you, Bill Clinton. Appreciate that. So that was a problem for me. So I couldn't do rotc. I couldn't do early. You know, I couldn't go to West Point, whatever. I was going to probably go in the Navy, but. And then I thought the CIA. And it just was. At the time. You don't. Maybe you remember it. Remember Clayton Lone Tree? There was all these issues around the CIA and blackmail and this and that. And it was. You know, I had a friend who was in the Soviet Union who was gay, and then got questioned and then thrown out of the country. Cause it was, like, blackmailable or whatever. And so I didn't want to have those conversations. And so it didn't feel open to me without being closeted. And I have a real problem with a closet. I just think it's such a nasty, toxic place. You know, I hated it. You know, I think we all were in that. Right.

[Unknown]

Well, that's what kept me from.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. And so it was just. I can't believe we did, like, today. You know, it's sort of like when I was with one of my sons when he was young, and we ran into a payphone one time. You know, it was an end. It was a dead payphone, essentially. And my son was like, what's that? And I said, it's a payphone. And he's like, what's it for? I go calling people. And, like, he's like, well, how? I go. You put money in it and then you talk on it. And he went, that's filthy. And I was like, it is. So it reminds me of that. Like, I can't believe we did all this skullduggery. And all the, like, hiding. And the second, the two at one of My apartments. I think I had a fake room for my girlfriend. Like, right. Like at the fake room. Like, what is like hours of your life you wasted doing that? It was so stupid. So people wouldn't know. So it was dumb.

[Elise Hu]

Yeah.

[Roxane Gay]

And, you know, it's interesting to see how some people are able to just do that and then others stay in that place until they're ready or until they're shoved out.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Roxane Gay]

And it's interesting.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

I respect that. I get. People should come. Of course, it was AIDS crisis for me when I was in college and, you know, I was here in Washington and. And I did after. I was here after too. And I remember doing the quilt on the mall. It was one of the folders. And I wasn't a particular activist, but it just. At that point, I was like, fuck these people. They're killing us. They're killing our community. And it just made me furious. And when I saw Angels in America, a lot of art, a lot of the plays that are going to time, I was like, like, what the hell? Like, this is a. This is a. These people are dying for no good reason, and this is the United States of America. Like, what is wrong? What is going on? And so I think that really, that got me. I was like, that's enough. That's enough with that.

[Elise Hu]

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[Unknown]

Ever feel like you're carrying something heavy and don't know where to put it down? Or wonder what on earth you're supposed to do when you just can't seem to cope? I'm Hesi Jo, a licensed therapist with years of experience providing individual and family therapy. And I've teamed up with BetterHelp to create mind if We Talk? A podcast to demystify what therapy's really about. In each episode, you'll hear guests talk about struggles we all face, like living with grief or managing anger. Then we break it all down with a fellow mental health professional to give you actionable tips you can apply to your own life. Follow and listen to. Mind if we talk on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get Your podcasts. And don't forget, your happiness matters.

[Kara Swisher]

Matters.

[Roxane Gay]

So you are out. You have seen the AIDS crisis during college, and I think for many of us, that was formative. I was. I went to school on the east coast, and we would go to New York on the weekends. And ACT UP was very active at the time, and it was amazing to see that there was this way of fighting back and that there were people who were willing to tell those stories. After college, you ended going to Columbia School of Journalism to get your master's degree. And you've said it was a waste of money. And I think most of us who have graduate degrees could probably say yes, 100%. Why did you think you needed a master's degree to get into journalism?

[Kara Swisher]

Because I got job offers from cities I didn't want to live in as a gay person. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't want to go to Alabama. I didn't want to go to most states. I felt unsafe, and I thought it would help me. I don't know why. It was stupid. If I had that money, if I go back in a time machine, I'd take that money, invest in Apple stock, and I'd own an island right now.

[Unknown]

Just like, seriously, I wonder how much it would have been worth.

[Kara Swisher]

I know. Don't.

[Unknown]

Oh, you do tell us.

[Kara Swisher]

It's like $60 million. It's some crazy amount of money. Then again, I've turned down jobs at every Internet company, so I shouldn't. I've lost billions of dollars that are owed to me, Kara Swisher. But it was a waste of money. I just was stupid. I could have gone. Worked. Working is the best way to do well.

[Roxane Gay]

Did you learn anything useful in grad school?

[Kara Swisher]

No.

[Roxane Gay]

Okay.

[Unknown]

When you first started as a journalist, you immediately started covering the Internet?

[Kara Swisher]

No, I did not. No. I was an intern. I actually delivered mail. That was in college at the Washington Post. I worked my way up to the Washington post from a Newsaid in the Style section. I worked at the McLaughlin Group. You can read about it. My upcoming memoir. I worked at the City Paper here in Washington. It was great. When I was 22, 23, worked at the McLaughlin Group. Testified against him in a sexual harassment trial that he never paid for. But he's dead, so it's all good.

[Unknown]

Actually, you did say you were glad he died.

[Kara Swisher]

I was thrilled. Thrilled. I think at one point I said to him, you can't die soon enough. He liked. He thought that. Hann, I really hope you trip. They. I shouldn't say Yeah, I should say that. What the hell. Yeah, I worked my way up. I worked my way up as I filled in for people who were on maternity leave. And I started covering a family that some people may recall, the Haft family. They owned Crown Books, Track Auto. He had a big pompadour, his son. Gray pompadour. His son had a brown pompadour. They were billionaires. And I started writing about their fights. It was sort of like King Lear here in Washington. Anyone who's of a certain age.

[Unknown]

Well, you wrote it like King Lear.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, I did. I wrote it like Shakespeare. And it got me very well known at the Post. So that was retail. I was covering retail, and I got so sick of them because they were really loathsome. The story was loathsome. And especially Herbert Haft himself. He's dead too good and works for me. But he was terrible to his family. He was terrible to. To his wife. And it was one of those stories of people of so much means that all they could do, and it was really borne by him in many ways. It was a great business story and everything else and a great personal story. And I wanted to get off of this beat more than anything. And so, of all people, David Ignatius, who's now a columnist, was my boss in the business section. And I said, you have to get me off this beat. And he said, well, there's this company out in Virginia called aol. And you're a young person. Like, I was the young person. This Internet thing, Like, it wasn't even Internet, it was digital services, online services. And so that's where I started covering it in the 90s. In the early 90s.

[Unknown]

But when you started doing that, you really felt that.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, immediately, yeah.

[Unknown]

So what gave you this sense? I mean, there were a lot of journalists at the time that thought the Internet was a Ponzi scheme.

[Kara Swisher]

They did.

[Unknown]

You understood the transition between the telegraph and radio and television. What gave you that certainty that it was gonna end up being what it ended up being?

[Kara Swisher]

I had studied propaganda at Columbia and also as my. It was my piece. I wrote a paper on it. And also at Georgetown. That was my. I was at Foreign service school, and I was really interested in communications means. And the minute I saw it, I was like, oh, I see what this is. This is everything. And it was very easy to see that. It was like the telephone television, but it was super sized. And when you saw the Mosaic browser for the first time and you could click on it and get any piece of information, and I say, this in my memoir coming up, the thing that occurred to me at that moment was, everything that can be digitized will be digitized. I just. That was it. That was it. I was like, oh. And I downloaded a book. And there's a famous story of me downloading a book and messing up the thing. But I was like, oh, wow, wow, wow. And then I could see, you know, because I wanted to be. And I wanted to be in military intelligence or CIA. I was gonna do scenarios. And I was like, oh, this goes to this, and this goes to here, and this business will be over. And so I was at the Washington Post, and someone I have great regard for, Don Graham, was the owner at the time, Catherine Graham also, but she was older, and he was running it. And I was like, you are so fucked. Like, I just saw it. Like, I was like, there's gonna be. It's not subscription. Cause news will be free. This will be a problem. It'll collapse. That business. Your classified business, which is shitty for customers and expensive, is over. Because this guy named Craig, who I just had dinner with the other night, actually, he goes, I'm the guy with the list. I'm like, stop it. Stop that. Stop that joke. But he does that all. He still does it to this day.

[Roxane Gay]

I can't believe he's doing that joke this many years later.

[Kara Swisher]

It's okay. It's his thing. He's Craig of the list. But I did say, stop it. And he's a lovely guy. He's actually given away a lot of money to journalism and all kinds of good content causes. And so I saw that, and then I thought, subscriptions, digital news, classifieds. And then at the time, the brand advertising was dying, display advertising in newspapers, I just saw. I was like, oh, this is going to change everything. And so I moved to the Wall Street Journal pretty quickly because I thought it was on a higher floodplain, but it was still on a floodplain. And so I just kept seeing it and saying it to people. And I carried around a suitcase phone that the Washington Post had. And I was like, you're not gonna have a phone at your desk. I was like, john the Baptist of technology. I was like, why are you sitting there when you couldn't go anywhere? And they were like, get away, lady with the suitcase phone. You know? And then I had the big Gordon Gekko on. I'm like, no, it's littler. And they're like, that is a big fucking thing. I'm like, it's gonna be even littler. It's Gonna be like Star Trek. And I stood in line to see the STARTAC like an idiot. That was the flip phone, the first really impressive flip phone. And I just was, like, in love with it immediately. And you could just see it. You could just.

[Unknown]

Do you still have the same phone number you had back in the 90s?

[Kara Swisher]

I have my phone number for a long time. No, when I moved to San Francisco, I have the same one. 97. I've had the same phone number since. 97? Yeah.

[Unknown]

93.

[Kara Swisher]

97. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Well, of course, you know me.

[Roxane Gay]

Yeah, that's true. That's true. You enjoy holding onto, like, these important things. Now, you've been doing this for, like, almost. Not almost more than 30 years. And you've written for any. Any number of publications you've been talking to for and about these tech leaders. And many people in many publications refer to you as the most feared and the most liked journalist in tech.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm not sure about the liked part, but.

[Roxane Gay]

Okay, how do you walk that line?

[Kara Swisher]

You know, I don't think I'm feared. I just. I think I'm. You are. Okay.

[Roxane Gay]

Yeah, you are.

[Kara Swisher]

That's scary.

[Unknown]

It's like, well, you being wonderful and you are. I think what I do think.

[Kara Swisher]

I think I approach it, like, yeah, no, I don't get that. You know what I mean? I think a lot of people, you either in tech, either have people who are fanboys and there's tons of them, and they're all boys. Let me just say. It's all boys who just love it. Like, oh, my God, Bill Gates, your giant brain is so astonishing. And he is smart. Like, okay, but come on. There's a lot of advantages he had. And so I approached it like, yeah, I don't get that. Explain it to me. Like, I'm an idiot kind of thing. Question them when, you know, they sort of act like magicians and everyone reveres them. So you have that group, which is they can do no wrong, which I think went on for far too long. And then there's the people that are too snarky towards it, because I really think it's amazing. Technology has been astonishing over the past couple of decades and just amazing. It's just amazing. And, you know, I use an example in my upcoming book where I said, you don't want to be the person at Kitty Hawk. Like, they take off, they fly whatever amount of feet they fly. It's correct in the book. But they fly a certain amount and they land. And you go, well, they were supposed to do 15ft and they did 13. Like that's not the person they flew.

[Unknown]

But Roxanne's mother would have done that.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, they said 20 and they did 13. It's a failure. They flew like that's the. I do have that great regard for tech in that like the things it could do. And so I have a great hopefulness about tech as a tool and, and in good ways. And I am very aware of it as a weapon too. And so I think I did that. And that's. I kept pointing out the weapon part and especially when it got more weapon y I was like, just a second misinformation and things like that. And I would say it to them because I did have a lot of access, but I didn't do access journalism. Sometimes I did, but I tried not to. I tried to, to always sort of say what the problem was very clearly. And I think the confident people, like Steve Jobs, actually he talked to me 8, 10, 12 times on stage. Never did that with anyone else. Along with Walt Mossberg. I think the smart people were able to. Or adults I say were able to handle criticism.

[Unknown]

Not always.

[Kara Swisher]

He could be super thin skinned. And the children, the toddlers were not. They threw fits when you didn't lick them up and down all day. Do you think they like that?

[Roxane Gay]

I'm sure they do.

[Kara Swisher]

Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm from San Francisco. It's fine.

[Roxane Gay]

Do you think that the kinds of people who are succeeding in tech are changing from that sort of man child or woman child to a lesser extent into less smarter people, People who are perhaps genuinely more socially aware and understanding of the dangers of the weapon?

[Kara Swisher]

No, I think we're in a very bad. I mean, look who's the hero right now. And the villain, Elon Musk. So someone I've interviewed more than anyone on the planet, actually someone I liked quite a bit actually, and thought, God, at least he's doing interesting. Most people are doing digital laundry services. They're like, I'm doing a digital laundry. I'm like, oh my God, really? I couldn't think of anything less creative. And he was doing some really amazing. The electric vehicle stuff, the space stuff is really interesting and really important. I do think even some of his kind of wackier schemes, the hyperloop and the boring and the neuralink. Interesting. Like really interesting. And then there's part of him that has now taken over his brain almost completely.

[Unknown]

Well, what happened? Why do you think it turned in this way?

[Kara Swisher]

I'm not a psychiatrist. I think he's just turnt. I don't know, turned bad, rancid. He had that part of his personality, you know, juvenile memes and silliness. And I think he had a tough life growing up. That said lots of people did. It's not an excuse. You know, I think I just had a wrangle with Walter Isaacson about that. You know, he likes to use Shakespearean. Well, he's a complex person. I'm like, maybe he's just an asshole. Like, now he's like. And, you know. Well, he had a difficult childhood. I'm like, really? This is what we're going to. Oh, he has deep.

[Unknown]

So did Oprah.

[Kara Swisher]

Oprah. Yeah, exactly. Oprah. Hello. Oprah's lovely. As far as I can tell. I think they've gotten worse because the money is so vast and the people, their enablers are so obsequious, and nobody tells them they're wrong. I was talking to Elon about Twitter. I thought maybe he could help it. Cause it had all kinds of business issues. It had all kinds of management issues. And I had hopes that, okay, here's an interesting person who could maybe do something. And then the first thing is. And he actually. And I texted about it, and then he tweets the Paul Pelosi thing with, you know, and a bunch of things. And I just. What had been a small part of his personality, I would say, which was a little dark, really got all of it. It just invaded his entire brain, it seems like. And, you know, maybe he's being performative. I don't know. It seems like the act is going on for far too long. But my issue with people like that is the power they have. Not like, I'm not gonna get tweaked because he, like, decides Russell Brand needs defense. But, okay, sure, whatever. You know, of course he did. Of course he went to Russell Brand's defense. It's because of the power. And you saw that in the Starlink thing.

[Roxane Gay]

Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

That he didn't. Walter got it wrong. In fact, the story. I actually called Walter. I said, a Ukrainian defense official just came up to me at an embassy party and asked me to help. Help Ungeofence Crimea. And I was like. I felt like I was inappropriate for the person to be asking to do this. Right. And at the same time, I wasn't talking to Elon at that time because we had a falling out over a number of things he was tweeting. But it was. The falling out we had was over the Starlink thing. Cause I thought it was dangerous. It is Dangerous. He's unaccounted. And. And he's can decide what to do. I do blame our government and the Ukrainian government for not having options, but he was there with what they needed at the moment, which was very generous, actually. But now he just gets to decide. And then he started sort of parroting what I felt were Putin talking points, which was. I mean, you could have your opinions about too much war. Absolutely. But this is not a person you want to put in charge of. Of anything.

[Roxane Gay]

I agree. Now, is there a way to keep these kinds of billionaires in check? I mean, you mentioned, like, the government is at fault, which for many things, but it seems like the more wealth these men mostly accumulate, the less.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Are there any women in that?

[Kara Swisher]

No. Mackenzie Bezos has some money because.

[Roxane Gay]

Yes. But she seems to be willing to, like, do a little bit.

[Kara Swisher]

And a lot of philanthropists. She has. Indeed.

[Roxane Gay]

And so, like, what are the consequences of unchecked. It's not the innovation that I'm worried about, but the unchecked access, the unchecked power, making these rash decisions.

[Kara Swisher]

What's. The people are unaccountable. It's the robber barons all over again. You know what I mean? I think it's these people who have unchecked power, unchecked wealth that's beyond belief. It's crazy amounts of money. Influence over government. Influence over governments. You saw Benjamin Netanyahu just sort of paid fealty to Elon to try to help him out of the anti Semitism issue. Maybe don't say anti Semitic things that might work. Like, the Prime Minister of Israel is helping him out of a jam. Like, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? Like, so he will go over there and invest, put a Tesla plant there or whatever they want. And so, you know, I think that's what scares me is even. And I thought they should have taken Trump off long before I had written columns saying that. That I was at a party and I put this to the people there. And I said, what if after. If he loses the election? And he says the election was fraudulent and he urges. He keeps doing it for weeks on end, and then he urges his followers to attack the Capitol. I said that in a column in 2019. It was just a scenario that I built. What would you do? And I felt like he had broken rule after rule on these platforms and should be taken off temporarily, whatever. Just everyone else gets kicked off. Shouldn't he be. I didn't love that one or two people made that decision. You know what I mean? Like, that Made me super uncomfortable that it was at the time, Jack Dorsey, although he tries to pretend it wasn't his decision, or Mark Zuckerberg. That also makes me deeply uncomfortable. Although I don't think these are public platforms, so. So they're just private squares. They're not public squares, but they certainly aren't important.

[Unknown]

So where do you see the future of social media going?

[Kara Swisher]

I think it's sort of starting to crack. I don't think people are quite as engaged and interested. I don't think they'll have the same power. AI is really where the action is right now, where a lot of the. And that will have implications not just on social media, but healthcare, on finance, on publishing, for sure, on entertainment. So it will have widespread. It's the Internet on steroids. I don't know how else to explain it. It's really.

[Unknown]

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[Kara Swisher]

It could be a good thing. It could be health care. You could have drug discovery, you could have drug interactions, drug discovery, genome stuff, all kinds of things. Education. You could really bring education all over the place. Healthcare in particular is. Is a particularly promising area. Figuring out climate change stuff, patterns. There's all kinds of things it could do. It's also a copyright thief, as usual, which these people are. It's controlled by the same companies. It's Microsoft, Meta, Apple, Amazon, Elon Musk. It's the same people. It's the same powerful people getting a hold of tools that our government. You know, you can say all you want about the government, but it's called elected officials. They may be incompetent, but they're elected.

[Roxane Gay]

Yes. So incompetent people put them in opposition.

[Kara Swisher]

No, but they're elected. Like, at least there's some governor on it. And in this case there isn't. It's just that these companies are making decisions that will have grave implications on the rest of. I'm not someone that's like, oh, it's Terminator time. I don't think that's really what. What the issue is, as some of them are saying. But I do think it's enormous power in the hands of a very small group of people. And I'm not scared of AI and generative AI. I'm scared of people using generative AI, which. It's always the humans that fuck things up.

[Roxane Gay]

I'm curious about that because oddly enough today, and I haven't even told you this yet, but today I got an email from a man who said that he had made an AI chatbot by teaching It. All my books and interviews and essays, et cetera.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott's doing that now.

[Roxane Gay]

And he was like. Like, I think you should use it and it will amuse your followers. And I was like, no, you need to delete this right now, because I exist and I don't need a bot to do me.

[Kara Swisher]

But you can do. Actually. Yeah.

[Roxane Gay]

I think this is the way of the future.

[Unknown]

I want to know what characters.

[Kara Swisher]

I think you should actually. You should do it yourself. Well, interesting. I just didn't interview with Martha Stewart, who's always up on things. She really is quite an astonishing lady. She's a real entrepreneur. Her people don't give her credit in that regard, but she's doing Martha AI. Get it. I thought that was funny.

[Unknown]

Well, you could do the same thing. Carry AI.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, Right, right. She almost bought Kmart. It was going to be Marth art or something like that. I think she's taking. She's not going to remember all the things she's done. And she owns a lot of her. So do you. So I do now. And so she's taking all this IP she doesn't remember every time she figured out how to get a stain out of a cloth. Right. She doesn't remember every one of them. And she's put out so much content about where to put the plate and this and that. This is in her area. Right. In her area of gardening and home. And if you brought it all in one place, it could answer for her. Right. She's not gonna be able to do it. Yours is the same way. It could be, but it's in. It's based on your things. So it could be very interesting for a lot of people who have a lot of content. Absolutely. I think that's interesting.

[Roxane Gay]

That's. Yeah, because I. After I sent off the email, that was like, my gut reaction. Then he was like, can we talk a little bit more about this?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, but it should be yours. Be careful. Why did he put your things in without your.

[Roxane Gay]

Actually didn't even consult me. And I thought he was doing me a favor. And I'm like, you're a white man. Like, I would never choose you to, like, lead me into the promised land.

[Kara Swisher]

One time years ago, I was walking with Larry Page around Google and we ran past a room that was full of televisions, and they were going. And I was like, what is this crazy fucker doing? And I said, what are you doing, crazy fucker? And he said, you're taping all of television? And I was like, what do you mean he Was using closed captioning to search it to search video. And it was brilliant. But I was like, do you own the copyright? And he's like, why do I need the. And I was like, because it's copyright. And same thing they did with books. They were just copying them without any kind of rights to them. And so. And they were met with a real problem when they went to visit. I happened to be with them when they were visiting the book publishers. And they're like, we're going and asking them for all to be able to search to put everything in our thing. I'm like, they're going to say no. And they're like, why wouldn't they? It's so great. I was like, cause when you do it, you control it and they're fucked. Like that was. They just like, we're trying to help people get all the information. I said, but it's their information. And it was. You would have discussions like that constantly. And they were like, well, yes, but all information needs to be free. I said, oh, that's a really nice shirt you have. I think I'll just take it. I like your money. Your billion dollars in the bank. I think I'll just take it because money needs to be free to carry a swisher. And just like, they just didn't. They literally don't think like that. Everything is fair game for them. All the information is for sure, but you should do it anyway.

[Roxane Gay]

You have given me food for thought.

[Kara Swisher]

I'll put you in touch with a few.

[Roxane Gay]

Okay, that would be great. Because I know nothing about it and I just need.

[Kara Swisher]

Everyone's gonna have one of these. It's gonna be a plug and play for everybody in that regard. But you have to have provenance and who owns it and this and that. There's gonna be a lot of lawsuits. Barry Diller and I just did an interesting interview where he's gonna sue everyone he owns a lot. I love Barry Diller.

[Unknown]

He's just, well, it's only going to be possible for people to sue if they have the money to be able to sue for the people that don't have money.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, that's what they pay money for. No copyright. Our copyright laws are really quite good in this country. They need to be updated. But that's what happened to YouTube. And then they had to pay everybody after they stole everything. Right. So that it can be done. Copyright is a very, very good law in this country.

[Unknown]

So.

[Kara Swisher]

But still, they'll try to take it.

[Elise Hu]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Unknown]

May throw out all your other clothes.

[Kara Swisher]

Sorry, do we legally have to say that? No, this is just how I talk.

[Unknown]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Kara Swisher]

That's B O M B A and.

[Unknown]

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[Kara Swisher]

They do.

[Unknown]

This is a question that Roxanne was going to ask you, but it was a little bit further down in the interview and I think it's an appropriate time to ask it. So if you don't mind, Roxanne, I'm going to just go for it. In many interviews you speak openly about money, which is rare, particularly for women. And you've said you know your worth.

[Kara Swisher]

I do.

[Unknown]

How do you determine what you're worth?

[Kara Swisher]

By knowing what your worth isn't, like knowing where your leverage is. I think about leverage a lot. One of the things that I always noticed was especially women. As a boss I noticed this and as a person of myself trying to get money, they women almost continually undervalued themselves like and men Way overvalued themselves. There was one point where I was firing two different people, and one of them, you know, we were gonna give a severance, and it was a number. You know, it's the same severance kind of thing. And it was generous. And the guy asked for double the severance. And I was like, I don't even wanna give you this. Like, no, like. And the woman just took it and could have asked for more. Right. You know what I mean? It was really. I was thinking, huh, that's interesting. This son of a bitch is.

[Unknown]

Anyway, now, do you think it's because historically we've just made less than men, or is it because we just value our.

[Kara Swisher]

Ourselves less? I don't know. I'm not. Again, not a. I don't know. I've always thought, give me that. Like, I did that. I made that give me the money kind of thing. And I was in a discussion with someone I was working for, and they were like, I was making a certain amount of money at the. I'll say. It's Jim Bankoff, who's great, who I love, by the way, who's really great and entrepreneurial. Really great. But at the time, he wanted me to take less money. And then I made a lot of money at the Journal because I had a piece of the profits. I always took a piece of the. If I made it, I wanted a piece of the winnings, essentially. And we got it. We did get that. And if you ask for it, you often can get it. And so he wanted me to take less. And at one point, and he's never done this again, he goes, just take more stock and less cash and less guaranteed cash. And then, you know, we'll go out, we'll be pals. I said, I don't need any fucking pals. I like you, but at this time, you're not my friend. So, no, I would like the money, and then I will pay for drinks. And it was preying on a thing for women who want to get along, right? Like, just be nice. Be a nice girl, and then everything will be good. And I'm like, I'm not that nice a girl. So I think I'll just take the money and then you'll like me better. I know. And so it's not money for money's sake. I'm not like. I just. I'm like, why? If I make something, if I make a conference that makes, say, $4 million in profit, I thought it up out of my head. They're not helping me that much. Why should they get all of it? Why shouldn't I get half of it? If they are my partner? Like, it doesn't occur to me not to take the money. And I always take the money and ask for it. And I think people should. I don't know why. I think women don't. That's for sure.

[Unknown]

Quite a long time ago, I interviewed a designer and we were talking about money. And he said, no matter what he's offered, he always asks for more.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And he always goes back and says, no matter what, even if it's a great offer, is there any more you can get? And he always gets more. Yep, always gets more. And I've told that to designers ever since. Like, this is something.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm doing that right now. I just got more.

[Unknown]

Can you get me a lot more?

[Kara Swisher]

Sometimes, though, I don't. If I feel like it's fair. I don't like to be like, now give me triple. I don't think you have to be a jerk about it.

[Unknown]

Well, he always says, just a little.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I just know what I can make. Like, if I make this much money, I will take this much. And I think most. Then you have an incentive, then everyone's incentives are aligned. I like when incentives are aligned. I don't like. I had someone at one point, I was making tons of money for this particular entity. And you could see it there it was coming in. Like, I could see it. And at one point they're like, well, you're the most highly paid person here. I'm like, I don't give a fuck. I made the most money here. Like, give me the money. And so. And I sometimes been in meetings where they're, like, trying to make me take less. And I just keep going, give me the money. Give me the money. I'm not leaving until you give me the money. So. Or else I'll leave, you know, and then I'll get more money somewhere else. Like, so it's. I mean, I have the ability to do that now. Cause I'm lucky because I have a good career. But I just. I don't know. People do. I don't know. I just want the money.

[Roxane Gay]

So when you.

[Kara Swisher]

Money's power. That's why. Because money is power.

[Roxane Gay]

Before you got lucky, though, I mean, because everyone starts somewhere. Were you still able to do this?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, I did that then. Yeah. When I was offered last year. Although I did make, I just remembered $14,000 at City Paper. That was a shitty salary, but it was kind of okay for the time.

[Unknown]

I hear was that I made $16,000 at Cableview in 1983.

[Kara Swisher]

Probably in that. No, a little later, maybe 86, something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like. It wasn't unfair for the moment. But I do think. What I do think is important is if you're an entrepreneur, just like. And this is what I've learned from the tech people is if I make something, I want a piece of it, right? And I think too many people. People work for salaries. I think that's what it is. If you people should. All people should be participating in the upside. That's what's happening in the UAW strike right now. You know, they want to participate in the upside. Same thing in Hollywood. And if you make things, you should benefit from what you make, and you shouldn't just sit there. And especially if you're creative and entrepreneurial, you deserve that extra. If you create something out of nothing, you should benefit. And that's one thing I do like, love about the tech people. They make things, they take the windfall of it, and they take the risk if things don't work. I'm perfectly willing not to take any. Like, to not win. One time we were with a very famous. I was with a very famous Hollywood producer who made hit shows. And Instagram had just sold for an enormous amount of money. And Kevin Systrom, another Lovely guy, got $300 million in Facebook stock. It's a lot more now, or something like that. Some enormous amount of money. And he had just started the company, like, three days before. And so it was great. Good job, Kevin. And so this guy was like, why did he get so much? Why did he get so much? And I go, well, he owned it. He owned it. That's why. And then he sold it. And that's how he got so much. Like, it's not that hard, sir. And he's like, well, I make a lot of money. And I was like, no, I know how much you make. He was making shows for one of the networks. And I said, but I bet you don't make as much as they do off the things they make of yours. You get the $100 million and they make 3 billion at the time. Not anymore. These networks don't. I said, so you are really just a cheap date. I sent this to him and he's like, I make a lot of money. I said, I bet they sent the plane for you for the Emmy. Was that nice? Why don't you own your own play? Like, that's the kind of things they did. Or you got the Oscar Congratulations on the Oscar flowers. Or they did all this petting stuff of these people and then took most of the value out of it. And I was like, the reason this network is in the place it is is cause of you, because of your creativity. Even though your shows are shitty, but they're still popular. So I don't know what to say. And so that's what I was, you know, I was always urging people to if they're the entrepreneur, they should take things. I think that's fair.

[Roxane Gay]

Speaking of creative output, Debbie, I think we should ask about the memoir.

[Kara Swisher]

The memoir.

[Unknown]

I do, but I just want to ask one more question about money.

[Kara Swisher]

Money, like money.

[Unknown]

Have you ever made a bad money decision or money decisions that you've regretted?

[Kara Swisher]

Probably not. Taking every job that I've been offered from Internet. I would be very extraordinarily wealthy right now.

[Unknown]

And then I would say disturbingly wealthy.

[Kara Swisher]

I'd be disturbingly wealthy. But you know, I did. My. My ex wife is Megan Smith. She became the CTO of America. But I convinced she got it when I was covering, not covering Google. I knew the Google guys and they were very much interested in her working there. I said, you should go there. You're going to make a lot of money. You're going to make. Go there, go there. And she did. And she did make an enormous amount of money. And not as much if she had gone when I told her to, but nonetheless, she made a lot of money. And. And then when we got divorced, I didn't take anything. Like an idiot. I'm such a bad gold digger. So I, you know. Yes. I don't regret that. No, she should have ca. She made it. It's her money. But I got a nice house out of it. But I did. I just, it's my house.

[Unknown]

Well, didn't you get the house from the money that you got from your grandfather?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, I did.

[Unknown]

So then how did you.

[Kara Swisher]

I got. Well, I know, but we paid for it together. Whatever. You don't want to go into details of my divorce. Thank. But she has a lovely house here in Washington. I'll say that. I think about what would I have if I had said yes to AOL those many years ago, if I had said yes to. I had offered a job at Amazon. I was offered a job at early Facebook, early all of them. And I just was like, I just didn't want to work with them. I know it sounds dumb, but I was like, oh, do I have to look at you all day again? Same thing, same thing.

[Unknown]

Now I could Be wrong about this, but.

[Kara Swisher]

But sometimes I wish I had all that money so I could do political things and.

[Unknown]

But that's why I think you didn't take those jobs, because I do think. I mean, I don't want to.

[Kara Swisher]

I liked what I was doing. That's all.

[Unknown]

I mean, it just seems like there's a lot more.

[Kara Swisher]

It wasn't an antiquity. I liked what I was doing. I liked. And that's the one thing, say, is that whenever you do anything, you should like what you do. And when I don't like something, I quit. I think a lot of people stay in the same place because they think they have to. And most of us, especially in this room, are very lucky. They have a lot of choices. I'm fully aware that I have choices all the time. There's people around the world that have no choices whatsoever. All around the world. And it seems wrong if you have choices not to take them, especially when you're educated, you live in America, you know, all kinds of things that you have advantages of. So I. I just can't. I just can't. I just can't do it. Just the same reason I had kids at, you know, in my late 50s was like, I want some more kids. That's what I want. That's what I want. And plus, they'll be taking care of me when I'm super old. That's a good thing. Totally a reason. I'm sorry. I'll admit it. But I wanted to have kids. I love kids. Like, everyone was like, really? And some mornings, like this morning, when they get up at 4 o' clock, I'm like, what the hell Did I do that? But otherwise, it's really something I want to do, so I'll do it.

[Unknown]

Am I right in thinking that during your interview with the astrologist Chani Nicholas, you said you wanted seven children?

[Kara Swisher]

I did. I did. I did. I did.

[Unknown]

So you have three more to go.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I'm like Elon Musk in that regard. Right. I'm trying to populate the planet. No, I'm trying to populate the planet with a kind of kid. Like, my sons are astonishing. I mean, I always joke about this, but lesbians should raise all the men. They're, like, confident and feminist, and at the same time, they're kind of, like, tough and cool and, like. You know what I mean? Like, they're just great kids. You can listen to my son Louie on my podcast this summer. I had him on. He's a fantastic kid. All of them are. Yeah, I did. I Would have. I wanted kids since I was. Was 18, 17, 18 years old. I bought a onesie when the Ikea opened here. Out at wherever the hell it is out. And you just drive in Virginia for a while and you run into it. Where is it? It's in Potomac Mills. Potomac Mills. I should know that because I covered the opening. What Potomac Mills. I bought. Oh, I guess I covered that mall when I was at the Post. But yeah, I bought a little onesie that all my kids have worn when I was 18 years old, which is incredible. Yeah, I love kids. I think it's great. I think they're great. I know you're not supposed to have more than whatever. You know, I'm making up for everybody else because nobody else is having kids, so. And I always. I do think I joke. I have a stupid gay joke. But I'm like, I'm building the militia Etheridge. So I had an argument. That idiot J.D. vance, who I'm so glad Mitt Romney also agrees with me about. He started strafing me on Twitter, which I was like, don't you have a Senate campaign to run, you dumbass? And I knew him before he was this version of this. He was just a tech person with Steve Case. And his book was interesting. His book was interesting. And he insulted me about how liberals don't like the future. And so I tweeted back. I go, I have double the kids you have. And so first, what's the problem with your life and your wife? 2. I believe in the future twice as much as you do. So get on it, J.D. let's start to have some kids. If you really believe in the future. So ridiculous.

[Unknown]

Lindsay, Roxanne, have you been trying and.

[Roxane Gay]

Somehow I haven't impregnated you yet? Lord knows I put in the effort.

[Kara Swisher]

You don't need that anymore.

[Roxane Gay]

No, we don't.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, I think I actually still have sperm left. I got pregnant on the first pregnancy and my ex wife got pregnant. So I have a lot of sperm left.

[Roxane Gay]

Wow.

[Unknown]

Apparently going in places I never expected.

[Kara Swisher]

Not here.

[Roxane Gay]

What am I.

[Unknown]

The first time ever.

[Kara Swisher]

I bought it for you.

[Unknown]

We've discussed this on a podcast that I have done.

[Kara Swisher]

I bought it for cheap and now I can sell. Was very inexpensive way back when. Cause nobody was. No lesbians were having children.

[Roxane Gay]

And now all of them are.

[Kara Swisher]

I could sell it at a great profit, for example.

[Roxane Gay]

Yeah, especially I mean, because you have examples.

[Kara Swisher]

I would do it.

[Roxane Gay]

Look what it makes.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, look what it makes. They're handsome and they're fantastic. Lesbians I sat in the sperm clinics. You can't figure I had a no donor and I shouldn't have done this, but I sat in the lobby there just looking at the men come in. And they were all California tens, every one of them. And I thought, of course, they're vain and they think they should go on. That's what I thought. Oh, yeah, this is what's happening here. And I thought, I'm fine, fine, I'll take that.

[Roxane Gay]

So, yeah, I mean, a California 10 is really high.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Roxane Gay]

So that's.

[Kara Swisher]

I have a son that is six four, almost six five. So here I am at five two. So it's fine.

[Roxane Gay]

It works out.

[Kara Swisher]

Works out. All right.

[Unknown]

Let's talk about your memoir before again.

[Kara Swisher]

You can have the sperm if you want it.

[Roxane Gay]

Okay. I mean, we will have a little discussion.

[Unknown]

We all heard it here first. Anything can and will happen in live radio.

[Kara Swisher]

I have a lot. It's in a cryo. Whatever the. In California, I pay 300 a year and I can't stop paying 300 a year for it.

[Roxane Gay]

That's interesting that you're holding on.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know. I shouldn't.

[Unknown]

She wants seven children, Roxanne.

[Roxane Gay]

That's true. And so, tick tock.

[Unknown]

Did you just say tick tock?

[Roxane Gay]

I did, I did. You know, we have one last question with your memoir coming out. It's called Burn Book, A Tech Love Story. And so I'm curious because you've also said that you hate the people that you write about.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't hate all of them.

[Roxane Gay]

So how do you balance hating them and then wanting to write a memoir?

[Kara Swisher]

Hate's a strong word. I'm tired of writing about a lot of them, and I'm very disappointed. It's a book about a love gone wrong. I guess that's what I would say. You know, when you see someone that you love turn in a way. Some people. I do have a whole chapter. There are people I like, and then I write a whole chapter about people I like a lot. And most of them act like adults and are really trying hard. I happen to like Sam Altman, who's doing a lot of this AI. I think he's a really thoughtful person. I've known him for a long, long time, and I think a lot of him I like Reid Hoffman, another person very involved in AI. I very much like Tim Cook. I like Satya Nadella. There's all kinds of people I like. I mean, they're not my friends, but you know what I mean?

[Roxane Gay]

Definitely.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't have a problem with their personal lives. And we disagree, but it's fine. They're adults. But it's a lot of like, what happened to these people? They started off with these great hopes and dreams of connecting the world with each other. And instead, you know, I can't say what the first line of the book is. When you read it, you'll understand. It's a story of heartbreak is what it is. But it's fun. It's really funny.

[Roxane Gay]

Good. Well, I think we all look forward to it in March 24th.

[Kara Swisher]

March. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Well, once the book is out, I'd love to talk to you more about it and have another conversation.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it's good. You'll like it. It's really fun. It's a little bit different than Walter Isaacson's book, so.

[Unknown]

Oh, good.

[Kara Swisher]

Walter.

[Unknown]

Kara Swisher, Roxane Gay, Deborah Millman, Carol Smasher, thank you so much for making.

[Kara Swisher]

So much work that matters.

[Unknown]

And thank you for joining us tonight on Design Matters. And remember, we can talk about making a difference. We could make a difference or we can do both. I'm Debbie Melman and I look forward to talking with you again soon.

[Debbie Millman]

This interview was presented by on air in Washington, D.C. on September 20, 2023. Design Matters is produced for the TED Audio collective by Curtis Fox Productions. The interviews are usually recorded at the Masters in Branding program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, the first and longest running branding program in the world. The editor in chief of Design Matters Media is Emily Wylie. Now at Verizon, we have some big news for your peace of mind. For all our customers, existing and new, we're locking in low prices for three years guaranteed on myplan and my home. That's future you peace of mind and everyone can save on a brand new phone on myplan. When you trade in any phone from one of our top brands, that's not new phone peace of mind because at Verizon, whether you're already a customer or you're just joining us, we got you. Visit Verizon today. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers. This is Jonathan Fields from Good Life Project and I'm here to tell you about Blue Lizard. So I live at altitude in the mountains where the sun is really intense. And when I head outdoors, I trust Blue Lizard's mineral sunscreens with their smart cap technology that turns blue under UV rays. And I love Blue Lizard's mineral sunscreen sticks, perfect for sensitive skin. Be fearless in the sun. Go to Blue Lizard to find out more information, which sunscreens are right for your family and where you can buy in store or visit Blue Lizard Australian Sunscreen Store on Amazon.